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“Words of Wisdom” is an initiative to document and celebrate the stories, insights, and wisdom of Singapore’s senior citizens. It's powered by Folklory, a service dedicated to preserving stories through audio podcasts, who will collaborate with 60 seniors aged 60 and above to create a series of 60 podcasts, each capturing a unique slice of Singapore’s rich history and culture. Find out more info at Folklory.com
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:05
Unknown
Hello there. This is Terence from folkloric. What you're about to listen to is a podcast from the Words of Wisdom Project, where we spoke to 60 Singaporeans over the age of 64 as you 60, and captured their life lessons for the next generation. You hope you enjoy it.
00:00:24:07 - 00:00:53:14
Unknown
And we're here today to do this for Kiri with Tresa, and maybe the best way for us to search results for you to give a brief introduction of yourself and what you think you're here to do today. Okay. Good evening. I'm I'm a Singaporean born, bred here. My parents were both from Indonesia, so I'm first generation Singaporean.
00:00:53:16 - 00:01:23:23
Unknown
I have two sons who are in their 40s. Eldest one is a lawyer. Second one works in a bank. He's a he's a banker. And I have three grandsons aged 11, seven and four. Very proud grandmother and very proud, mother of two fabulous sons. And I also, I cannot forget, I also have, a fabulous, daughter in law.
00:01:24:00 - 00:01:52:22
Unknown
So, at this stage in my life, I guess I can say that I'm, I'm, I'm quite a happy camper. I been retired for almost 20 years, and I lived outside of Singapore for those years. I just returned to Singapore, almost a year ago. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And when did you come back from. I came back from, Penang.
00:01:52:23 - 00:02:31:04
Unknown
I spent about seven years there, and before that, I spent about eight years in the United States. I see, I see. Yeah. So I mean you touched quite a bit on the things that meant a lot to you, which is I can hear it's family means a lot to you. Right. Yes. I family does mean a lot to me, especially at this, winter years, you know, because when I was, when I was, a young woman, I spend a lot of time in my career, so I didn't really have that much time with family.
00:02:31:06 - 00:03:07:24
Unknown
And now I think it's time to give back, to my family. What? You know, I should have given to them in earlier years. And in. And my early retirement has also, taught me a lot about, what it means to give back. I spent in my almost 20 years of retirement doing voluntary work. I did some charity work, some foundation work with my husband before, with my late husband before he passed on.
00:03:08:01 - 00:03:33:19
Unknown
And when I was in, in Penang I, I did a little bit of charity work and I did a little bit of volunteer work as well. So now back in Singapore I signed up to be a Silver Generation ambassador. I just passed the Terry and on the job training. Oh, okay. And I tried to do, once, if not twice a week.
00:03:33:21 - 00:03:57:15
Unknown
Volunteering for the organization. Got it, got it. Yeah. So, I mean, you talk about with a lot of reverence for, you know, your your, your, children and their spouses and, and your grandchildren as well. Yes. When you have when you have the chance to talk to your children about love, like what? In terms of romantic love?
00:03:57:18 - 00:04:20:22
Unknown
Right. What do you what what does that romantic love mean to you? Like, what does it mean to. What do you think it means to any, you know, any individual? You asking me? There are a few questions there. One is what do I tell my family about romantic love? And the other thing is what does it mean?
00:04:21:03 - 00:04:58:20
Unknown
Yeah. And, and and, okay. To to the first question. Which is what do I talk to my children about. Romantic love that there's very little chance for an Asian mother to really talk about romantic love. But what I can share is, my experience, my little experience with my, my children first. I tell them that I don't, I don't,
00:04:58:22 - 00:05:34:24
Unknown
But in, I don't interfere in India, choice of partner. They, they can choose whoever they love, but it must be the right person. When my son was, was, wooing and dating, his, his girlfriend, I took the opportunity to, to see them every week. On Sunday, you know, just to try and get to know her a little bit better.
00:05:35:01 - 00:06:02:12
Unknown
So she was always invited on Sundays to come and have lunch with us. And and then then he came a point when I asked my son what, what in the world he was waiting for now because they were dating for two years you see. So very soon after that I felt that she, she, she was the right girl for him.
00:06:02:14 - 00:06:30:01
Unknown
And very soon after that he, he proposed and they've been married for more than ten years. And now they have three kids. So I'm quite happy, I'm quite happy for them. So I think, I think they've built up a very nice nest. And the children are growing up is as best they can give them a lot of opportunities.
00:06:30:03 - 00:07:05:08
Unknown
And they give a lot of priority to the children. And so I'm quite proud of both my sons and what they have built for themselves. Romantic love. Romantic love is I, I don't know what to say about romantic love because at different points in my life, I, I have different definitions for romantic love. Of course, when I was young, I thought that romantic love was the be all and end all of life, you know?
00:07:05:10 - 00:07:47:23
Unknown
But as I age and as I, I accumulate life experience. I think romantic love is very short lived. Okay. I think I think one has to find the best friend that one can find. And, it's important that your spouse is the best friend to you. And I, I believe that once you have found somebody that you can, live with, you know, you, you grow together, you, you will eventually build a loving relationship.
00:07:48:00 - 00:08:16:04
Unknown
I'm not saying that it's, it's, to marry anybody that you meet. I know I'm not seeing that at all. What I'm saying is that you have to find a person who is your best friend. And that to me is very, very important. The friendship and the love. Are two very important, important components in a relationship.
00:08:16:06 - 00:08:48:23
Unknown
It. At what point in your, your own relationship did you feel that you had found a best friend to spend your life with? At a much later stage, at a very much later stage, because I was married twice. Yeah. The first marriage was very short lived and it taught me a lot. My second marriage was, after I retired.
00:08:49:00 - 00:09:19:17
Unknown
At 52, and I went to the States and I married an American there. Who was more matured. Man who, who really taught me what a marriage should be like because he was more mature than I am, so. And he was my best friend. I could, I could talk to him about anything and everything.
00:09:19:19 - 00:09:52:09
Unknown
And, and we, we accepted each other as, as, we're not possessive of each other. We just accepted each other as individuals. But but we we were together in, in different senses, you know, we're not unlike, unlike some relationships where the togetherness is 24 over seven, I think. I think that is a bit, overpowering.
00:09:52:11 - 00:10:20:19
Unknown
So I found that kind of relationship when I was much older. Got it. And I think when you walk through the journey of life Along the way you will pick up nuggets of knowledge, wisdom, you know, nuggets of knowledge which you can share with, the younger ones. Sure. So yeah, I mean, actually that's something I did want to ask you.
00:10:20:19 - 00:10:43:17
Unknown
Like, what do you think is one lesson that you would give to a young person today who is, you know, looking for love or thinks that he's he hasn't she hasn't found love. Like, what advice would you have for them? I can talk a lot about it because I've observed so many in my life and, you know, my friends life.
00:10:43:19 - 00:11:28:23
Unknown
I think I think is important that when you find the person whom you want to spend your whole life with, that you do not just, look at the superficiality. And what I mean by that is we all, we we all get attracted, to certain types of people. I think that that is a very human thing. Before one, embarks on a journey with another person, somebody that you intend to marry.
00:11:28:23 - 00:12:05:03
Unknown
I think one has to be, very selective because, especially today, because we we we we don't live in a world like the world that I lived in, 60, 50 years ago. We live in a totally different world today is very narcissistic. We group narcissists. And people have different values. So you need to be very selective.
00:12:05:05 - 00:12:58:12
Unknown
And by selection what I mean is that apart from the chemistry and the physical attraction, which are very important elements in any relationship, I think that you got to look very deeply into the person's personality. Character traits, values and vision of life. And you have to share that, very early on to understand, what you're dealing with because you don't get to know a person until, until you have encountered them over a period of time and until you have both dealt in, with one another in their varied situations.
00:12:58:14 - 00:13:27:05
Unknown
So I think one has to be very selective because it's very easy today to get a divorce, for instance. And I a divorce is is is not cheap. The emotional drain apart from the financial drain, the emotional drain is very heavy on the psyche. So I would say you have to be very selective. The person that you choose is very important.
00:13:27:06 - 00:14:00:09
Unknown
Have to share certain compatible values, have to be able to, you know, have a similar vision of, of the future and, and very early on, if you decide to bear each other, you must at least talk about your future. I mean, things don't happen, you know, on its own, you know, when children, when children comes the everydayness of marriage and raising children can take a toll on, on a marriage.
00:14:00:11 - 00:14:24:18
Unknown
So I think, I think those are things that you have to talk about very early on. And, and we, we all put up our best selves right when we meet somebody. Yeah. So you also have to show your lousy self to the other person to see what the reaction is. What I mean to say is be authentic.
00:14:24:20 - 00:14:51:15
Unknown
Yeah. You know, just be authentic and see, you know what? What is the reaction from the other side. True. Okay. I mean you know the definitely in terms of romantic love and family, those are very important aspects of, you know, being happy. But I did want to touch on another aspect of happiness, which is friendships or relationships with people outside of family.
00:14:51:18 - 00:15:30:18
Unknown
Right. Yes. What how have you maintained your friendships over the years and what are the secrets to maintaining lifelong friendships? Oh, that's quite a loaded question, Terrence. Yeah, I think I think you have to work, maintaining friendships, just like any other friendship. Whether it's a marriage, a relationship with an in-law, relationship with, parents, of course, there are different degrees of sharing and different degrees of bonding.
00:15:30:18 - 00:16:02:18
Unknown
But if we're talking about friends now, maintaining a relationship is work in the sense that, you do have to extend a certain consideration. You you do have to be reciprocal. I think reciprocity is very, very important in all relationships, give and take, understand the other person to be able to navigate around the likes and dislikes.
00:16:02:20 - 00:16:41:14
Unknown
I think those are very important elements. And also, in our relation ships, authenticity, stands out for me is the number one, trait that I look out for in, in, in all my relationships, if I cannot see authenticity in a person, I would find it very difficult to maintain a relationship with that person. I would, either avoid or evade on or not establish a new relationship.
00:16:41:16 - 00:17:17:09
Unknown
I, I, I think good relationships there must be reciprocity, there must be respect, understanding, kindness. You know, all these traits are very important to, to, to build up the bond with somebody. I think you, you need to, to, to, to practice all these traits. Sure. So, I mean, authenticity definitely is one very important thing in friendships.
00:17:17:11 - 00:17:45:19
Unknown
Yes. What other values are important to you in terms of like, what do you think about the friends that have that you've made over the years? What are the values that are very important to you? Honesty is one of them. Top, top on my list. When they are honest, when I see that they they they are helpful.
00:17:45:21 - 00:18:26:11
Unknown
They're considerate, daily good lives. And they are good examples for their children. They're kind to the, seniors, you know, they're kind to their parents. They're kind to their in-laws. These are things which I, I these are values which which, are very important to me. And I look out for it. I have many friends who have been there for me in my darkest hours.
00:18:26:13 - 00:18:59:09
Unknown
And, I've had many, many hours. I tell you, we don't have time on this podcast, but I have quite a storied life and, I, and I think without my friends, I would have had to go through, tough times. But my friends were there to help me and, and I cannot forget that, you know, God was also there to help me.
00:18:59:11 - 00:19:30:23
Unknown
And in that sense, you know I, I, I'm lucky, I'm blessed. This providence always providence in my life. So I think kindness kindness is really very important in friends. I see. Okay. I mean it's, it's kindness is a very important trait that we, we have in the friends. Right. That we look for in friends.
00:19:31:00 - 00:20:02:23
Unknown
What do you think is the kindest thing a friend has done for you recently? Recently? Yeah. One of the things that, a friend has done for me, recently, since I came back from Singapore, to Singapore. Sorry. Yeah. When I was moving to Singapore from, from Penang, I had a friend who helped me with many things.
00:20:02:23 - 00:20:37:08
Unknown
Like I would, purchase certain pieces of furniture. Before the flat was ready. And she would store it for me and she would go shopping with me, even though she was busy looking after her, elderly mother, you know. So she, she helped me a lot in that sense. And I would call her because she has very good taste.
00:20:37:10 - 00:21:07:24
Unknown
I would call her to ask her if she would accompany me to provide me with, a second opinion on what I wanted to buy. Okay. So, that to me was kindness and, and, and before that, I had other friends who, who really extended, helping hand to me. To me when I was, in a, in a bad situation in, in Penang.
00:21:08:01 - 00:21:50:03
Unknown
We were fighting with, the condo management corporation who, who had to justify why they spend, more than a million, ringgit now. Although they're not allowed to according to our mandate, the mandate that we set in a condo. So I, I, I was at the, the, the, I was one of the leaders, to to to quest to, to fight, to fight this, management corporation.
00:21:50:05 - 00:22:12:00
Unknown
And it was a very difficult job. It was extremely difficult because things in Penang do not run the same way that things run in Singapore. So I had a friend who I had a friend and in fact, there were a, a group of them who came round to help me, to support me, you know, in my fight.
00:22:12:00 - 00:22:41:22
Unknown
And it was, it was very, stressful time and the, the, the, the assistance gave me a lot of, moral support and courage. And, and I appreciated that very much. I mean, these, people who didn't ask me for anything, you know, I, they, they, they just came around to help me. And they're not even owners of the, the condo.
00:22:41:24 - 00:23:14:06
Unknown
So we had, we had a very difficult time, but I appreciated all the help that came to me. And there are many, many other stories that I can talk about, but I think it's two, 2 to 2 many. Okay. Too many stories. Yeah. Too many stories. Sure. No problem. Okay. I mean, I did want to ask you a bit about, your career as well in finance, because I'm sure you've had a long, storied career in finance.
00:23:14:08 - 00:23:45:18
Unknown
Yes. What do you think is the secret to the longevity of of your career? Like what? How did you stay in the game for so long? Actually, I didn't stay in the game for so long. I retired at 52. I should have retired at 65. Like all my friends. Okay. So I had, I was very lucky because I was born at the right time when the country was growing.
00:23:45:20 - 00:24:18:13
Unknown
And there will equal opportunities given to women. And, and I embrace all those opportunities I, I, I studied in the local university. So I came out at the age of 21 and immediately got a job. Yeah. And I was I was the only. Yeah, I was the only one that was accepted by DBS, the local bank.
00:24:18:17 - 00:24:44:01
Unknown
Okay. In my cohort. In my faculty. Oh, wow. Okay. The rest all came from accountancy and business at. I came from social sciences. I had, an offer to go for honors, but when I graduated, it was recession time. And then I didn't want my father to put up with another year. I know, so paying school fees.
00:24:44:01 - 00:25:10:05
Unknown
So I came out and what, From the age of 21. And I was very lucky in because I, I said I was very lucky because I was born at the right time. And at the age of 25, I was given a branch to run. Which, which I was told is the youngest, on record.
00:25:10:07 - 00:25:37:02
Unknown
I don't know about now, but I was told it was I was the youngest on record and all that was domestic banking. And then I went to international a few years after that, and I stayed in international banking and I joined other things. What what, what helped me a long in my career. I had a very good career.
00:25:37:02 - 00:26:26:13
Unknown
I have to see very good career. What helped me along? I have to say is, basically, a lot of discipline, a lot of hard work and ethics because I was in a credit under, risk site. Because I was on the risk side, I had to do a lot of analysis of, companies, banks and countries and, and, and, and although you can opt to, to, to, to sign off on what is marketed for the bank by the relationship managers.
00:26:26:15 - 00:27:26:16
Unknown
As a risk manager, I felt that I had, strong judiciary, obligation to the bank because it's very easy to, to lose $1 million. It's the truth, you know, is very difficult to earn, you know, to earn it back. So I was I was under, on the risk management side and, I think the, the thing that that carried me through my career was, the fact that I was able to articulate, myself in a manner where, you know, I, I, I could convince, management either to approve or not to approve a loan, and, and, and I, I think I had,
00:27:26:18 - 00:27:52:15
Unknown
I suppose you can call it. I don't like to use this word, but I suppose you can call it, courage. I'm not the most courageous person in the world, but I would speak my mind and I would try to speak it truthfully, you know. I try to stay away from politics because it's of no use to me.
00:27:52:17 - 00:28:26:13
Unknown
So, so I think that carried me through, you know, the, the the, the fact that I want to, To always be on the right side of the business. Not to be part of the, the boys club, you know, not to be so politically involved. So I was quite alone I would say because I, I, I didn't want to get involved into too many cliques.
00:28:26:15 - 00:29:06:16
Unknown
So, so in that sense I think it, it, it helped me a lot. But my, my, my, my career and, and, I ended my career, because I was burnt out. I was totally burnt out at 52. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, and just of that like what advice would you give to people to, you know, avoid, burnout in their own as they plan their own careers?
00:29:06:18 - 00:29:44:07
Unknown
I think when you're young, when you're young, you don't need to worry about work life balance. It's a very competitive market. Today, I think you have the energy when you're young to, to to work very hard in order to build, you have to raise a family, you know, to build a future. And, and when you're young, you should embrace all the opportunities given to you should try to be adventurous.
00:29:44:09 - 00:30:08:14
Unknown
You should try to be a conformist. You should try to always have an opinion and, and and stand for what you believe is right. And I think things will go your way and, and you will have adventures in your life if you try to be the yes man all the time, it's not going to go your way eventually, eventually you have to give it.
00:30:08:16 - 00:30:42:17
Unknown
So what I will say to the young in order not to have a burnout is they should they should have the right priorities. I mean, we all can be up there. There's always a hierarchy. In every in every society, in everything that you do, in any company that you join, there's always a hierarchy, right? So you, you, you do the best that you can based on the, the, the resources that you have.
00:30:42:19 - 00:31:13:12
Unknown
If you start from young and you up, you're persevering and you are very good at what you do. I think that's, a very good foundation that you can build on. And and you, you have to have some kind of, balance priority. You should exercise for one thing. You should, you should have family time.
00:31:13:14 - 00:31:40:03
Unknown
You should have work time. You should never neglect your family. And, and and I, I, I, I think you should try and, and build a lot of positives into, into your life. Has a hobby if you can, if you can spare the time, if your children are not taking, too much time, from you have a hobby so that you can relax.
00:31:40:05 - 00:32:10:11
Unknown
One of the things I regret not doing is to have, a kind of a hobby which in which I can relax. I have always been a very serious person, and even today I cannot read, simple novels. You know, I try to go for, for heavy reading and all that, and I think that is a mistake.
00:32:10:13 - 00:32:43:10
Unknown
I think that a really a big mistake. So now I try to change my habits. I've. I've taken up pottery. I've, I've taken up, art. Okay. I do a little bit of volunteering, which I think, I, I want to and it will be good for me spiritually. But I think one could also have a time to relax, especially over the weekend.
00:32:43:10 - 00:33:11:19
Unknown
You should relax, have laughs, you know, if, if, if you are a religious person, go to church, you know, pray to God. I think all those things are very important. Not not just work and earn money. I know in Singapore we all want to work and earn money, right? Yeah, but I the the consumerism here is, is is out of the world.
00:33:11:19 - 00:33:34:14
Unknown
But you you need to have me time. You really need to have me time. Yeah. You do need to have that. And it's very important is you cannot just chase money all the time. No. Have a perspective. You know have a perspective I mean okay. If you earn a lot of money then go and buy all the luxuries that you want.
00:33:34:14 - 00:34:00:16
Unknown
But there has to be a limit to everything. I mean a car is a car, right? You don't need to drive a Rolls-Royce. You can still drive the Mazda, for instance. So I think to the young people you need to pace. I see my children working very very hard. Very very hard.
00:34:00:16 - 00:34:33:05
Unknown
And I know it's hard on them I, I try not to disturb them and I, I try to not be a burden to them and I try and do my part, not so that they're not burdened by worrying over me. And and I think to the, to those who are in their winter years, we have to preserve our health so that we don't burden our children.
00:34:33:07 - 00:34:57:03
Unknown
This is I think something very important. Very true. Very true. So I mean that's some advice that you would give to people in studying on their careers. But what do you think is one piece of advice that you've received in your career that has stayed with you throughout. One piece of advice given to me.
00:34:57:05 - 00:35:29:14
Unknown
I can't quite, think about one Terence at this point in time. Okay. Because all the advice that is given to me is very politically oriented. Okay, okay. You know what I mean. So it's not useful. Sure. It's really not useful. But what I can see on that particular point is that you have to plan. 90% is all about planning.
00:35:29:16 - 00:35:55:16
Unknown
You plan and then you can execute perfectly. That's all I can say. That's all I can say. I, I wouldn't say that I've been given advice and maybe I've been given advice, but you know, it's not something that I lean into. But I cannot think of one to give, you know. Sure. No problem.
00:35:55:16 - 00:36:20:06
Unknown
But I'm sure some of it must have been distilled into what you spoke earlier about. You know, how to prevent yourself from getting put on your career as well. Right. So, you know, Theresa, thanks a lot for talking a lot about your own life experiences and lessons along the way. Because this recording is going to be for as a time capsule for future generations of Singaporeans, right?
00:36:20:08 - 00:37:01:09
Unknown
So what is one, message that you like to leave for future generations? And to you, when they're listening to this and thinking about how to navigate life in the future? Oh. Do what you are passionate about. It is true. I mean, it sounds fantastical, but it is very true. Do what you are passionate about. Because when you do things with passion, you can create a lot of things, and always remain true to yourself.
00:37:01:11 - 00:37:35:17
Unknown
Always remain true to yourself. That's that's, the only thing that I believe is important for one to live a good life. I, I believe that I have led, a life where I remain true to myself. And my son has always said that, you know, I always live according to the beat of my drum.
00:37:35:19 - 00:38:15:12
Unknown
I live the way. Of course. You have to be very considerate to people, but whatever it is you, you, you live your life. And be, be very open to what is offered to you and you should latch on to every opportunity that you can get in order to improve yourself. You have to improve yourself as you as you mature in years, you know you cannot stay in one place and let the grass grow.
00:38:15:12 - 00:38:52:03
Unknown
You have to continually improve yourself. So I'm very happy. When I came back and I found out about all the different, programs that the government has created for us and even for the elderly. Continuous learning is so important. Like the Japanese kaizen. Continuous learning is very very important. And I'm all for continuous learning.
00:38:52:05 - 00:39:21:05
Unknown
Hello again. I hope you enjoyed listening to that full query. Words of wisdom is a project by Charlotte Gall, powered by Folk Theory and supported by our Singapore Fund. To find out more, please visit our website at Folklorico. That's f okay o r y a.com. Goodbye.