Standards-Based Grading | Helping Parents Understand Standards-Based Grading

What is Standards-Based Grading ?

Jen Sigrist, Executive Director of Education Services at Central Rivers AEA discusses the topic of Standards Based Grading with UNI Professor Matt Townsley.

Jen Sigrist (00:08):
Hello and welcome to Central Rivers AEA Learning On Demand Podcast. I'm Jen Sigrist and I'm the executive Director of Educational Services. Today I'm here with Dr. Matt Townsley, professor at the University of Northern Iowa, and author of over 20 articles in books focused on standards-based grading. As a teacher who was the first in his school to discover this practice, and then as a curriculum director and now as a professor, Matt's passion is helping educators create classroom environments that take the mystery out of learning by being standards based. In addition, he's spoken to parent audiences around the country as schools transition to standards-based grading. I think we're going to be in for a real treat today, so welcome, Matt.

Matt Townsley (00:51):
Hey, Jen, this is going to be great. I loved our previous podcast episode. This is going to be great as well.

Jen Sigrist (00:57):
Yeah, well, we know school leaders need to support teachers in understanding the why and the how of standards-based grading. But today's segment, we're really going to focus on another important group, the parents, and I've read some news stories about parents groups who may be questioning the practice, and I can even see some of those misconceptions and myths we've talked about before in other resources in our on demand library that are playing out in these stories. So I'm really excited to talk with you more today about the important role that parents play in this systems change.

Matt Townsley (01:29):
Yeah, Jen, this is a topic that is absolutely near and dear to me. As a former district office administrator, I remember talking with parents in small and large group settings, and my aim, of course was to help them understand our standards base grading practices in Solon, Iowa and in Solon, a lot of our parents had a strong educational background, but yet still what I found out is that standards base grading was still new to them, and there was frankly a lot of potentially misleading information that was available online. And so the fact that standards base grading was new and that the information out there maybe wasn't what we hoped they were reading made this really an uphill battle for us at times. And so I'm really excited to share with you today some of the things that we maybe did well and some things that maybe we didn't do so well.

(02:21):
Speaking of some things that we did do well in our book Making Grades Matter, we dedicated part of the fifth chapter to this topic, and so I know that some of those things are going to come up today in our conversation. Also, it's kind of fun to share it right now, but I have another book coming out. I did not mean to plug all the books here, but I think they're really great resources, to be honest with you, a new book that Dr. Chad Lang and I are writing, and the book is actually geared towards parents, Being Clear About What Matters: A Parent's Guide to Grading and Reporting. And so I know that this is really an important topic, and I hope that just our episode today and the resources we're providing can be a really helpful contribution to the school leaders that are wrestling with some of these same questions.

Jen Sigrist (03:07):
I'm sure it will be. Well, let's assume that the school leaders listening have completed some of the initial leadership moves that you suggested in some of the other on demand segments. So it's finally time to think about communicating this big change to parents. Where might some of the initial conversations start? What might it look like, sound like?

Matt Townsley (03:27):
Yeah, Jen, first I'll just start with one of those mistakes, where not to start. Sometimes it's tempting to get down into the weeds. Here's exactly what the new grade book or the new report card are going to look like. And this is obviously important for parents to know and understand, but really first, parents need to know why this school is making this change. So the thing not to do is get down the weeds first. And the thing to do is to make sure that parents know, why are we making this change in and Iowa? Well, why are we making this change in Van Meter, Iowa? Why are we making this change in Cedar Falls, Iowa? And only after that compelling rationale does it really make sense for us to start creating the screencasts and the flyers and the brochures that kind of dig down the weeds.

(04:12):
If I'm a school leader listening here, Matt, help me out. What would be a helpful exercise then to help parents understand this? Well, let's say that you're a principal or a district office administrator listening to this podcast and you have a PTO or access to some other small group. I would suggest showing these parents a traditional grade book, like print out that electronic grade book that they're used to seeing on their phone or on their computer, and just ask this simple question, if this was your child, what are the students strengths and areas for improvement? Now, again, this is a printout with points and percentages, this traditional grade book. And probably what's going to happen is that these parents are going to start pointing at specific things like, well, they need to get better at worksheet 5.2 or test chapter five. They're really probably not going to be able to identify things like, my kid needs to get better at Pythagorean's Theorem.

(05:06):
And so there's an entry point for us as a school leader to say, we want to provide better information to you as a parent. The hard part for us school leaders though, is that sometimes in the midst of those conversations, we get kind of stuck in the educational jargon like, well, we're no longer going to weight our grade books, or here is how we're going to handle formative and somewhat of assessment. And frankly, even for our parents in Solon Iowa who many of them had a college degree, it was still confusing for them. And so what they need is more language that's in their own terms. And so maybe we can talk more about that today as well.

Jen Sigrist (05:44):
Yeah. Matt, you're making me think of an example where, I mean, I did this with a community group and the school board where in trying to create a less jargony filled approach, I just printed off the internet a 21 point checkup for your car, and each of the 21 points could be red, yellow, or green. So I ended up with a points-based system, and I would mark through the different parts of the car that were getting this checkup and I folded it in half. And on the cover, I just put those points and what the percentage would be. And my question to them when they got their little paper folded in half was are you ready to take your car on vacation, would you feel comfortable? And what they didn't know is one of the examples that I intentionally created was the person with A had brakes that were failing, that was the only thing that was wrong, but their brakes were failing. So they thought they had this car ready to go with an A, and then they look inside and they're like, oh my gosh, my brakes are red. That's not good.

(06:47):
Where another person had maybe a C plus, and they're like, oh, gosh, I don't know. But then when they opened it up, it was small things like windshield wiper fluid or the blades, wiper blades needed to be changed, and they might have been yellow on those things. And it really helped show that the percentage itself didn't tell you what you thought it did, but when they got into the specifics like, oh, I can go on vacation with this car with a C plus because these are just windshield wipers, and this other person was like, oh, I have an A. Wait. My breaks don't work. That's kind of important, really gave us a great conversation and seemed to be really eye-opening for the parents and our school board. What other metaphors and kind of analogies like that have you tried with parent groups to help see the less jargony side of standards-based grade?

Matt Townsley (07:38):
Yeah. First of all, I love that mechanic metaphor as someone who's taken their vehicle to the mechanic a couple times lately, I can relate to that, so I appreciate that. One that really stands out to me is basketball. It's a unique thing and that a shooter, a really good basketball player, can shoot maybe 80 to maybe even 90% of their free throws, and that means they're a really good free throw shooter. Now, Shaquille O'Neal, good basketball player, but he only hit like 50% of his free throws, but really good free throw shooters, shoot like 80 or 90% of their free throws. That's really good. Let's talk about the really good basketball players shooting three pointers. Right. If you are a basketball player and you only hit one out of every three, that's like 33.3%. You're a really good three point shooter. And so that illustrates to a certain extent the arbitrariness of a percentage based system.

(08:29):
And I think most parents can understand or begin to understand that, whether it's a basketball metaphor or baseball, if you hit the ball one out of every two times, you're a really good baseball or softball player. So that's a really helpful metaphor. Another one though, for maybe the non-sports fans out there is going to the doctor's office. Right. When I take my kids to the doctor's office and there's something wrong with them, what I don't want is for the doctor say, well, Matt, your kid's like at 85% health right now. Right.

(09:00):
I want a very detailed diagnosis. I want to know what's the specific prescription or the next step that we need as a family to help my child be on the mend. And so if we can begin to make those connections to the arbitrariness of percentages, like your mechanic metaphor and my basketball or baseball metaphor, and the need to have a more prescriptive diagnosis about what a student is doing well or not doing well, I think that kind of language can be really helpful for parents who aren't used to terms formative and summative assessment and weighted grade books along the way.

Jen Sigrist (09:33):
Right. Yeah. We know that standards-based grading is not always popular, at least initially among some parents. And as you were talking about those metaphors, I'm thinking is that one of the things that might have helped some parents get it? So what do you see as that tipping point for parents who might have been skeptical but then through learning or through conversation ended up supporting it? What do you see as some of those tipping points?

Matt Townsley (10:01):
Great point. The metaphors tend to be kind of the launch, the initial conversation at a PTO meeting or at a freshman orientation or at a SIAC or school board meeting type of environment. But oftentimes what needs to happen is more at a more intimate setting perhaps for parents to understand frankly how it benefits their students. And so first of all, I want to acknowledge that in the research I've done, and I've done a number of research studies looking at schools as they have rolled out successfully or not as successfully as standards-based grading. And what I've found is that when it comes to parents, there's often this fear of the unknown. That's what we call it in our research, is there's fear of the unknown. They're not really sure what this is all about. And so one way to help overcome that fear of the unknown, again, is for them as a parent to know, oh, this can actually be really good for my son or daughter.

(10:55):
So what does that look like? Maybe if I'm a school leader listening, what's that look like Matt? A couple quick takes here. One is for maybe the student who is very successful or tends to be successful in a certain course or content area, I might call them the advanced learner. One way to kind of explain it to the parent is, Hey, you know what? If Johnny is really rocking it in physics, he doesn't have to do all of the practice. There's no longer a need to accumulate the points for the busy work that they maybe used to have to do before. And so, oh, all right. I like this. I like the fact that my child could not do some busy work and maybe be focusing his or her time in a different content area or just be challenged in some other way. Or maybe there's a parent who their child is in a specific course where they're just, they're struggling at that moment, or they're struggling with that specific course.

(11:46):
And so we might help the parents say, you know what? There's no longer this pressure for your student every night to come home and spend 30 minutes doing that math homework and trying to get every single problem right for the sake of getting all of the homework points to get the grade that they want. Now the pressure's off. They can do it for the sake of learning and making mistakes and learning from those mistakes. And then when it comes to those tests or those projects, the pressure's also off because as we have shared earlier in our segments, that there's an opportunity for students to be provided a redo or a retake or a reassessment along the way. And so I think once parents kind of understand how it benefits their student wherever they're at, kind of along the learning spectrum, essentially, that can be a really helpful thing.

(12:32):
Now, of course, the metaphors can help, these intimate conversations can help, but I want to just share one other big tip for school leaders. Right. Okay, Matt, I get it. I can have a conversation with a parent like this, but how can I broaden my reach as a school leader? And I think here is not the secret sauce, but close to it. A student who understands how it benefits them tends to translate into a parent who understands how it's going to benefit their child. And so for school leaders listening, a big step is to actually prompt the teachers in the building or in the district to say, what are the conversations going to look like at the beginning of the quarter after the first test, at the end of the second week of the semester, specifically with students in every class so that they can see how standards-based grading is going to benefit or has already benefited them along the way?

Jen Sigrist (13:24):
We found that to be so true in Van Meter when we were rolling out standards-based grading. We made sure students understood it,

Matt Townsley (13:24):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (13:31):
And they were some of our biggest advocates in explaining it to their parents. I know what I have to work on. I know this is my area. I don't need to focus here. I've got that. This is where I need to put my attention. And when kids understood it, parents anxiety went way down. Oh, well, my kid understands what's happening here, and he or she knows what's happening in their class, so I'm not as anxious about me not understanding all the ins and outs of it. I can totally appreciate that.

Matt Townsley (14:00):
And if I can jump in one more thing here, Jen, in our adoption of standards-based grading, I know Van Meter was the same way. We had these early adopting teachers that were kind of doing it before it was the thing. And what we didn't realize, I think school leaders listening can also benefit from this, is those early adopting teachers naturally just tended to help students understand how it benefited them. What we found out later on as we implemented across the district is that we had to help coach our teachers who maybe it wasn't as natural for them. We had to help coach them how to do it, and most of them were like, thank you so much because they wanted to do well for their students.

Jen Sigrist (14:37):
Right. Well, that's just not something we've been taught.

Matt Townsley (14:39):
Yeah.

Jen Sigrist (14:39):
Did we ever have a class on how to have a grade book? I mean, you just assumed that there were these things and you just did what your teachers had done to you as a new educator. And so having the conversation about grading, certainly something we weren't necessarily prepared to do. So I bet preparing those teachers to have those conversations with parents was a big piece because I mean, at the end of the day, we know parents and educators want what's best for the kids.

Matt Townsley (15:06):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (15:06):
Parents want what's best for their children, and that partnership is really where we're going to have the greatest success. So how do you suggest a school leader guides parents in the types of questions that they ask their child's teacher and their child about their learning as we start to really implement standards-based grading? How do those questions change?

Matt Townsley (15:28):
Yeah. First fist bump, like this partnership thing, you're spot on, Jen. It really is. We found just like really every educator found at the heart of it is that parents do want what's best, and they do want to partner with the school. And so it kind of hit us one day in Solon as I was talking with our high school principal, Nathan, that maybe the reason that the conversations weren't yet there between parent and student or parent and teacher, those conversations tended to still be kind of hanging on to the old paradigm of points and percentages despite all of the communication and the freshman orientation meetings and the metaphors that we just talked about already is because we had not yet given our parents new questions to ask. Right.

(16:13):
As a dad right now, as I'm trying to help my own kids grow up, sometimes I have to help them with the new words that they should say instead of the old words that are hurtful to their brother or sister. Right. And so what we found is that we had to actually create a list of, here are some of the old questions that maybe parents were used to asking their students, and here are some new questions. So would it be okay if I just shared a couple of those with you right now?

Jen Sigrist (16:36):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Matt Townsley (16:37):
Great. So one of the old questions that parents would often ask their students was, Hey, Johnny, what can you do to raise your grade right now? That's a normal question for a parent who wants what's best for their child? And so we had to help our parents realize that the new question, instead of what can you do to raise your grade right now is to instead say, what standards do you think you still need to learn or improve at right now in this class? Simple shift. But that language matters a lot as we think about how we want our parents to approach and support this idea of standards-based grading.

(17:16):
Here's another one. I think this is an important one. Oftentimes a parent would say, Hey, did you get your homework done? Right. And the new question there is maybe what is the standard you're practicing tonight and how well are you practicing it right now? Also, as we think about the old and new questions, Jen, sometimes there's old and new questions for parents to ask teachers. So that same question can also come up. A parent will say, is my child getting her homework done? Sometimes that's just, are they getting their homework done? But other times it's more deeply rooted. Is my student organized? Is my student responsible? And so we coached our parents to ask that new question to teachers, is my student organized?

Jen Sigrist (18:06):
I can relate to that when I'm thinking of parent teacher conferences and,

Matt Townsley (18:10):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (18:10):
Yeah, I know I have a child that struggles with organization and showing up with his computer charged is one example of it. But certainly being able to ask that question is he responsible? Is he being on top of his responsibilities? Is he behaving? Is he respectful? Might have been in the old questions kind of embedded in the, is he getting a good grade? Is he turning in his homework? So yeah, I appreciate what you're saying. What we're really trying to get at is how are these other skills developing that are just as important as the academics?

Matt Townsley (18:46):
There's a whole slew of other questions that we'll just, we'll add some more. Actually just do a handout for our listeners here so that they can take stock of some of these common questions, revise, make it their own as they try to help parents understand this new standards-based grading shift.

Jen Sigrist (19:00):
Yeah, thanks for that, Matt. Let's kind of turn the corner here just for a moment, Matt. And a few times I'm thinking about different newspaper articles, and we kind of started out with some of those things you see in the news where maybe parent groups are pushing back or asking school leaders, sometimes even school boards that just reconsider standards-based grading. Let's just get rid of it. Beyond maybe an incomplete understanding or not having accurate information about standards-based grading, which we've already addressed in some different talking points, metaphors and other on-demand content. What other hiccups might school leaders anticipate in this process that you see in these maybe national examples or these news stories of let's get rid of it, what's really the driving factor?

Matt Townsley (19:54):
Yeah, Jen, when I read these news stories, it's like deja vu all over again. Like, oh, we went through that. I know what they're experiencing. And I think it comes down to maybe two things. One, and this is, again, hits really close to home for me, is just frankly inconsistent implementation. Or it's too early to even understand if the school is implementing standards-based grading well, and sometimes those are intertwined, like, oh my gosh, we've been doing standards-based grading now for six months, and so why isn't it better right now? Or why aren't we doing it perfectly? Right. So this actually again, was our biggest bit of parent pushback in Solon. And for a grading system like standards-based grading that really suggests that we're going to become more consistent, for it to be inconsistent, that can be pretty problematic. And I can't count how many times that I've seen that as I've found the news headlines online where it appears more like it's just not being done well or consistent from one classroom to another.

(20:55):
And this, by the way, is not a indictment on individual teachers, it's just that this is new and it's going to take some time. So sometimes what we'll hear in these stories is, is well, school board, you say it's supposed to be doing this, or administrators, you say it's supposed to be doing this and it's not yet doing it. And so maybe for a school leader listening just to ask for time and to suggest that perhaps the reason that we're not doing it well yet is because our teachers have not yet been trained how to do it well yet. And so again, that's just, any change really, Jen, that's a meaningful change in education is going to take some time.

Jen Sigrist (21:32):
The curriculum director in me is also hearing, so make sure you've also got professional development time carved out. Sorry, I just went there, Aleck. I know I'm going to need it.

Matt Townsley (21:32):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (21:41):
Just be prepared for it. Yep.

Matt Townsley (21:43):
Yeah. And oh, huge, huge. This can't be a one and done. We're going to have a professional development in August and somehow be master,

Jen Sigrist (21:50):
Just change the headings in your grade book and you got it.

Matt Townsley (21:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Sigrist (21:53):
It's so much bigger.

Matt Townsley (21:53):
We're speaking the same language here. Yeah. The other maybe big thing that I've seen is that sometimes standards-based grading appears from the onset or from the headline to be the problem, but oftentimes it's not actually the problem. The way that, again, Nathan, our high school principal in Solon, we would often say this, it's like the roof of the school opened up and a spotlight just shines straight on down on our instructional practices. And all of a sudden parents would say, well, all of a sudden, my student isn't getting their homework done. Well, this isn't good. But we've always had that issue in schools where students have not got their homework done. So that's not necessarily a unique issue to standards-based grading.

(22:40):
So what's happening though is we have to figure out ways to provide better feedback. We have to provide ways to help students understand that completing homework is meaningful and impactful. We have to move away from carrots and sticks in trying to motivate students by points and percentages to saying this is meaningful to do. And so those are just good practices. Right. Those are not necessarily unique to standards-based grading, but they become that much more important as the roof opens up and the light shines right on down for us in our school as we implement standards-based grading.

Jen Sigrist (23:14):
Yeah. Highlights other things that we may want to consider. As I think about school leaders who are really trying to get ahead of the curve and helping parents understand standards base grading, I have to think there might be even some other tips that you would offer up beyond the metaphors we talked about today, the communication with students, making sure that they understand it. What else might you suggest?

Matt Townsley (23:39):
Yeah, first one is huge. For high school leaders in particular, you have to answer the college question. Parents are very much concerned at the high school level about what are the implications for my kid getting into college, getting through college? And so get in contact with the admissions officials around you and proactively provide answers to those questions. That's going to be absolutely huge for high school leaders. Secondly, for all leaders is to think about what are those other questions? And so sometimes we don't know the questions in our community that are going to come up. And so it's always good for school leaders to be more proactive rather than reactive.

(24:18):
And so grab the PTO leadership, grab those parents on the SIAC, pull them aside in a purposeful way and say, Hey, here are these things that we're going to be changing in our school. What questions would you have? And try to solicit those questions ahead of time. And so that our first and second communications as a principal or as a district office administrator to a group of parents can hopefully proactively answer those questions. Maybe again, I'm having a deja vu moment, Jen, because we didn't do that. We found ourself looking at the tail as we were wagging it around like what's going on around here?

Jen Sigrist (24:18):
Right.

Matt Townsley (24:56):
So to really create that FAQ ahead of time for parents to read and have access to.

Jen Sigrist (25:03):
Right. We created it after the fact as well. Right. Yeah.

Matt Townsley (25:06):
I know. I know. I know.

Jen Sigrist (25:07):
It's pretty clear that's a helpful thing to have. When you can create some of those FAQs, knowing those questions that they might have just ahead of time.

Matt Townsley (25:16):
You bet.

Jen Sigrist (25:16):
A proactive way. Yep.

Matt Townsley (25:17):
Yeah. And then the other thing that goes with that, and again, maybe I'm just trying to pat myself on the back here, is just to acknowledge that this really is a chicken and egg communication bit here. There was a moment where we thought we had communicated it at such a high level. We had sent home emails, we had sent out videos, we had invited any parent that wanted to, to come to a meeting, and frankly, not a lot of parents had shown up yet. And the reason was because it was too early on in the process for parents to even know what questions to ask. And so even though we had all of this great information sent out, we just kind of stopped communicating and we thought we had it all figured out.

(26:02):
And in fact, as we looked in the newspaper at other schools around us that maybe the crap was hitting the fan or whatever, we're like, well, at least we're not them. Well fast-forward a few months, and that became us. And so as we think about a chicken and egg communication, we have to be providing the same communication over and over and creating feedback loops over and over and over again, revising the FAQ, doing those things to know that our communication is really not going to end in something like this. Because we have to remember, our parents didn't probably not experience this,

Jen Sigrist (26:02):
Right.

Matt Townsley (26:36):
When they were in school.

Jen Sigrist (26:37):
And I would even add, and I'm guess you're experiencing this as well. I mean, you would have this experience to say, and year after year,

Matt Townsley (26:45):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (26:45):
You're going to get new parents.

Matt Townsley (26:45):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (26:47):
And so even though you've communicated it well to your current parents and in this school year, things are going well, the next school year invites new parents into the system, whether they're moving into your community or they're entering into your high school and it just looks a little different or their concerns, their kids getting older, it's just, oh, now I'm thinking about college.

Matt Townsley (27:07):
Yes.

Jen Sigrist (27:07):
Communicating that again and again year after year, bringing on new teachers. Yeah. You're just going to have to keep that communication going. It's not just a one and done is what I think I'm hearing you say.

Matt Townsley (27:19):
Yeah, totally. And great example. We were doing the same thing at our upper grades in the middle school as we were at the high school, but yet all of a sudden, right, grades start to matter at the high school level. And so we found we had to reeducate our parents as they entered, as their kids entered the ninth grade. Great example of how the communication has to be ongoing and on an annual basis. Those FAQs, don't let them sit on the shelf and get dusty. Right.

Jen Sigrist (27:44):
Thanks. That's a good point, Matt. Well, I really appreciate your time and walking us through ways that we can communicate to parents proactively. I mean, we've talked about the partnership, just being parents ourselves. We know, we can see both sides of this. We've been school administrators, we understand the shift we're trying to make with staff, and yet we have our kids that we're like, we want the best for them. And it can be both things. And so communicating that way, being proactive so other parents get to experience what we've been able to experience is certainly part of this work. So I appreciate your expertise in being here today.

Matt Townsley (28:25):
It has been a ton of fun. Thanks again for having me, Jen.

Jen Sigrist (28:28):
This has been a Central Rivers AEA On Demand Learning in our series for district and school leaders around the topic of standards-based grading. Thank you for joining us.