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Countdown to Laravel Live Denmark is a short podcast series where we chat with speakers heading to Laravel Live Denmark in August. Each episode is a quick 15-20 minute conversation about how they got into programming, what they're working on, and a sneak peek at their upcoming talk.
Mathias Hansen (00:10)
Hey everyone welcome back to Countdown to Laravel Live Denmark. I'm your host, Mtthias Hansen, and today I'm chatting with Simon Hamp. Simon, how are doing?
Simon (00:19)
Good, how are you?
Mathias Hansen (00:21)
Good to hear, I'm great as well. Simon, you're of course speaking at Laravel Live Denmark later this year. We're excited to have you.
Simon (00:27)
Yeah, thanks for inviting me along. It's a great opportunity. I'm looking forward to it.
Mathias Hansen (00:32)
Yeah, it's been quite a wild year for you.
Simon (00:36)
Yeah, wild is definitely the right way to put it.
Mathias Hansen (00:40)
Yeah, I your announcement at LairCon EU ⁓ with native PHP for mobile and since then it's just taking off like crazy.
Simon (00:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it seems to be doing really well. It's been a roller coaster, honestly. I didn't expect 2025 to end up the way that it has ended up. And it's not over yet. We're only halfway through. How's your year going, Matthias?
Mathias Hansen (01:04)
Right.
not as crazy as yours! Thanks for asking. Yeah, so I'd to dial the clock a little bit back and hear more about how you actually got into computers and programming in the first place.
Simon (01:10)
Thank goodness.
Okay, yeah. Whistle Stop Tour. I mean, I was probably about nine years old when we first got a computer. I remember a family friend who was working with computers and being at his house, you know, and he was showing me like the PC and all of these things. And I was just like fascinated, you know, as a child wide-eyed and like, wow, you type stuff in and it does things, which was...
amazing and I remember thinking then like I really want to know how to do that which is a strange thing for a nine-year-old to think I guess but I can just remember vividly having this I would love to figure out how this is done
Fast forward like a few years and I picked up PHP and was learning how to set that up on Windows of all things and sorry for the Windows people, I've moved on from that now.
But yeah, and I spent a couple of years basically devouring books and blogs and whatever I could get my hands on. know, there was no like YouTube, Laracasts or anything else, you know, at the time. There wasn't even Stack Overflow. Talking about this to somebody earlier, it's like Stack Overflow didn't even exist when I started. And yeah, just...
copying code out of a book into notepad and saving it as .php file and trying to make it work, you know, it was basically the deal. And there were no like error tools, there was no real help. It's like you just, there was no Twitter. couldn't reach out to people very easily. There was like forums and blog comments and that was about it to try and get some assistance in solving problems. But basically you just have to like figure it out.
or move on and do something else. So yeah, that was it.
Mathias Hansen (02:59)
Yes, I'm not really a huge community back then, or at least not a good way to connect with people in the way it is today.
Simon (03:02)
Exactly.
Yeah, it was very tough. mean, obviously, as technologies progress and people kind of develop their skills to build these like complex, centralized, you know, like networks of communication.
that's all changed and we've got tools like YouTube and whatever now and people are just creating content around all of these problems and now we've got AI as well like summarizing all of that making it really really easy how I would have wished for all of that stuff 20 years ago but yeah
It was a really good time, you know, like it forced us to solve problems in creative ways and sort of figure stuff out. And I wouldn't change it honestly, because it's led me down a path to where I am. Even if it was a slightly slower path, it's the path that's led me to here. So it's a good one.
Mathias Hansen (03:51)
Yeah, so you started working originally just on, or just on, but native PHP for desktop, right, with myself. How did you get into that? How did you guys meet up and connect at first?
Simon (03:58)
Yeah.
Good
question. So I've been thinking about building desktop applications with PHP for a while because the company that I was working for a few years ago in like 2018, something like that.
we were looking at tools to kind of create some internal tooling systems. And I was like, well, I can just do this with PHP. was saying to my boss, I can just do this with PHP and we can put it on a server or, you know, we could even ship it to people's machines and just have them install PHP. That's not so hard, right? We actually ended up using something else, but part of my exploration into that, I came across a tweet that Marcel posted about...
Mathias Hansen (04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Simon (04:44)
kind of distributing PHP, I think it was CLI applications with Laravel Zero or something close to that, two different machines with a kind of no installation of PHP previously on there. And I was like, right, I'm going to bookmark this and come back to it later because I'd like this feels really relevant. And I just had this.
Itch, you know, like I've wanted to build applications with PHP in all shapes and sizes, not just web applications, because it is a general purpose programming language, even if it does say like it's built for the web. And I just, really have enjoyed building web applications and it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be based on the network. You know, they're just HTML, CSS, JavaScript. And if you're using PHP on the backend,
then you can have web applications that are all local first, offline first, whatever. And I just thought this would be such a cool way to enable developers like me who know PHP and not a lot else to build applications that work in different environments. And...
yeah, I mean, it took some years, but I kind of finally got back around to that bookmark tweet and did a bit of digging and you know, I, messaged myself and said, can you let me know like what tools you use? Cause I want to try and pick this up and run with it. I don't think he replied to me at that point in time, but, anyway, I managed to do enough digging and find out like some of the things that he'd started poking around with and dug a bit deeper.
Mathias Hansen (05:52)
Yeah.
Simon (06:11)
found this library which is called static PHP CLI that somebody was building, maintaining and worked with them over the course of a few weeks to like flesh out a binary version of PHP, like a single executable that could be shipped to different machines that they were able to ship to, they compiled it for me, you know, which was great, sent it to me and it worked on my Mac. And it wasn't just that it worked, but it actually allowed me to run a Laravel application.
So that was like the unlock moment. built something that could run Laravel and run on any machine. And I shipped it to some other people and I started tweeting about it. And then I heard from Marcel, as surprisingly enough, he came around and he said, this is really cool. Can we, let's chat and all of that. So we started working together on what became native PHP. And that was...
like April 2023, I think, so, yeah.
Mathias Hansen (07:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it really sounds like a magical moment having that like single binary and it just runs level. That's, I mean, it still sounds crazy, right?
Simon (07:18)
It was a really cool moment. I think I jumped out of my chair. It was very exciting.
Mathias Hansen (07:23)
Yeah, for sure. So I know that native PHP for mobile has only been announced a couple of months ago. It's still very young. But I you got your first app on the App Store pretty early on, got approved and stuff through the hurdles there. Have you heard from other people, like cool stuff they've been building? Do you have any examples of what people have done so far?
Simon (07:29)
Mm-hmm.
So there's been a couple of apps that I'm aware of that certainly I know of one for sure that's been through the store approval process that's built with native PHP and it's a side project by a community member called Eve. I'm gonna butcher his last name. I think it's something like Engetschweiler. I think he's in Switzerland and he did a talk about it recently and
at one of their meetups, the Laravel Switzerland meetup. Basically, like a side project that he'd had for years, like something that he'd wanted to build and tried building it and other tools, sort of tried to use it as a learning project to learn Swift and then React Native and maybe other things. I'm also not super familiar with the project, but he basically said in our Discord channel where we encourage people to share what they're working on.
that he'd been able to kind of bash it out in a couple of weeks using native PHP. And finally, after many years of trying, get this idea that he'd had built to sort of sufficient degree to feel comfortable releasing on the store. And I was like, wow, this is really amazing. You know, like there's this story of somebody who's had this idea for years that they've wanted to get out there and struggled for one reason or another.
And because they're so familiar with Laravel and web technologies and native PHP makes it possible for them to just reuse what they already know. They've been able to turn it around in next to no time, you know, by comparison, which is an incredible story. And I think we're going to, we're going to see a lot more of those kinds of things where people are building stuff rapidly using the tools that we're already really comfortable with and now just shipping it to the app stores.
But there are a lot of projects in the Discord, people are like sharing stuff that's work in progress. So you should join the Discord if you want to see more of those kinds of things happening at the moment. yeah, it's very early days for people to be releasing apps at the moment, I think.
Mathias Hansen (09:39)
That was awesome.
So that's the discord you have for people involved in building stuff with native PHP, right?
Simon (09:50)
Yeah,
it's linked to from nativephp.com. So there's like a discord icon on there and yep, it's open and free to join.
Mathias Hansen (09:58)
I'll make sure to put it the show notes too, so check it out. That'll be really nice. Again, speaking of community, it's nice to have someone to chat with this kind of stuff about when you're working on it. I'm sure you also got tons of feedback, right? Ideas, people want all these features, and ⁓ how do you go by trying to filter all this and figure out what to prioritize?
Simon (10:01)
Thanks.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Yep.
that's a really good question. had, I don't think I've given that enough thought, like one of the, I mean, the, one of the overarching things has been, you know, when we released a native PHP for desktop, as we call it now. And when we released that, it was almost one of the first questions like, when is it going to work on mobile? You know, I think Marcel said on stage in Nashville at LaraCon US basically like never. but the.
Yeah, since then, you know, kind of people do just say what they want. And what I've gotten more used to than ever in my career up to now is like listening to what people are telling me that they want, either directly or indirectly. And I think there are lot of features you could say are missing from native PHP, like the other tools like React Native and Flutter have, because they've been working for years and years building their tools.
But we're working as fast as we can to build all of them, you know, in a way that kind of makes sense for PHP developers, know, Laravel developers and the way that we sort of think about architecting these kinds of solutions, which is also a bit of a strange space because we've never, you know, if that's all you've ever done, you've never really architected these kinds of solutions because it's never been possible with those tools before. so we're trying to find ways to just make it really approachable.
and feel very comfortable. But I think, you know, there's some big things that I'd like to get sorted next, which certainly from the framework side for the mobile features, you know, it's like location, Bluetooth, in-app purchases is kind of one that feels super relevant for a lot of products. But yeah, just like...
everything and we're also looking at building a service that will sit alongside so that you can we're going to try and help you build deploy and release applications through the stores and all of the kind of adjacent things that you might want to do with a lot of that stuff just to try and make it as easy as possible for everybody to use
So yeah, lots of things we were working on, too many things maybe.
Mathias Hansen (12:21)
Yeah, so we're in late June right now, so recording this, so maybe we'll hear more about this in a few months at Laravel Live Denmark. That'll be cool. Sounds good. And you're talking about... Oh, I'm blinking right now. I'm blinking right now. Hold on, coffee time.
Simon (12:23)
.
You definitely will, yeah.
nice mug can i get one of those
Mathias Hansen (12:44)
Yeah, yeah, I will make sure to hook up with one.
Simon (12:48)
My, you thinking about my talk title.
something else.
Mathias Hansen (12:53)
Yeah, no, just escape me. That's OK. But I think we'll just jump to the next section. A little bit easier. So Simon, you're coming to Copenhagen in August. And something we love to ask all the speakers is, is there anything particular you'd to see or do or eat while you're in Copenhagen?
Simon (13:14)
I've been to Copenhagen a couple of times. I really enjoy the city and I'm trying to remember specific things.
Mathias Hansen (13:16)
Mm-hmm.
Simon (13:22)
I've got a mate who's there and he's always going on about hot dogs and I don't think I've ever tried a hot dog in Copenhagen yet but you know I've got this thing in the back of my mind of like I've got to eat a hot dog in Copenhagen so maybe there's some really good place to go for hot dogs.
Mathias Hansen (13:26)
Yeah.
Kaka'nat.
Gonna get a classic hot dog with all the trimmings and then a bottle of chocolate milk. That's how you do it. Yup.
Simon (13:44)
Chocolate milk, right?
Okay. Yeah, interesting. I'll definitely try that out. Is there anywhere that you recommend?
Mathias Hansen (13:48)
Yeah.
So, there's basically a hot dog place on every corner in Copenhagen. And I think they're all great. ⁓ Yeah, for sure. You also, you've been... Well, it's nothing, it's not a huge culinary experience. It's just a very, ⁓ you know, traditional thing that you would certainly find in Copenhagen.
Simon (13:55)
Okay.
Brilliant. Right, so I don't know why I haven't done it already.
No. Yeah.
Mathias Hansen (14:16)
You've been around a bit this year. You were at Lerkin EU, of course. You spoke at Lerkin UK last week. And you were in Chicago too, at PHP Tech, right?
Simon (14:19)
⁓ Yeah.
Actually, I didn't go to Chicago. That was a bit, there was a bit too last minute for me to make it over there. Shane, who's my co-founder now with the company that we've set up behind native PHP for mobile. He, he went and he spoke and it was his first conference talk at, PHP tech, which is quite a big one, you know? ⁓ so yeah, he did a really great job and I think he met some, some.
Mathias Hansen (14:27)
no.
Okay.
right yeah
Yeah.
Simon (14:51)
greats of the PHPE community. think he was drinking whiskey with Derek, who's the guy behind xdebug people like that. It's like, wow, crazy. Yeah.
Mathias Hansen (14:58)
nice that sounds wild
That's amazing. So
do you have any other conferences to attend or speak at the next year or so? Any plans?
Simon (15:11)
I mean, I'm putting proposals in for more conferences. did put it in for Lar- you know, I love the Laravel community. I've been in part of the Laravel community for many years now, I would say. And I've been wanting to speak at a Laricon because not that I think I'm particularly good at public speaking, but it's been, you know, it's like a nice achievement to-
kind of speak in front of your community I think if you feel up to that challenge. So I put in for Laricon quite a few times like Laricon US, I've not been accepted yet unfortunately but I will be going to Laricon US next month in Denver, Colorado so looking forward to that one. Yeah I still haven't booked my flight either so I need to sort that out.
Mathias Hansen (15:49)
Denver, yeah. my gosh, next month. That just kind of caught me by surprise.
You
Simon (15:59)
And then, yeah, Laravel Live Denmark, which will my first time going to Laravel Live Denmark, which I'm really looking forward to. And maybe, maybe go to Laracon AU if I can get the wife to give me a pass for a little while. We're sponsoring Laracon AU this time, and we're sponsoring Laracon US as well, which is, know,
Mathias Hansen (16:15)
Yeah.
Simon (16:24)
kind of that's awesome to be able to do. So yeah, it's nice to just like be there and be sponsoring at the same time, you know, I kind of feel like that's good support. So we'll see if we can make that happen. But I'm focusing on Laracons at the moment and Laravel live events and you know, we're trying to support other like Laravel meetup groups as well. I think I'll try and go and do some other events in the PHP community.
Mathias Hansen (16:33)
Yeah.
Simon (16:50)
as we broaden our appeal. know, native PHP is very tied to what native PHP for mobile is capable of. right now it's aimed squarely at Laravel developers. But we do have plans to make it work with more than Laravel at some point. So we'll have, we'll try and get the word around a few more places over the next few months and what have you.
Mathias Hansen (17:05)
Mmm, exciting.
Yeah, and speaking of meetup groups, do you have any local PHP community in Las Palmas? no. You're like the only one.
Simon (17:19)
no, no. Unfortunately no. I don't
think I'm not the only one. I know for sure I'm not the only one, but I do try and like catch up with the... There are some like more general tech groups that meet up here and I try to like get together with them occasionally. The challenge for me is even though I live here and I've lived here for quite a few years now, I'm not very good with Spanish and I should get better.
Mathias Hansen (17:46)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Simon (17:46)
But
a lot of the groups are in Spanish, which is kind of expected, you know, like most of the non Spanish speakers are more transient, you know, they come for a little while and then they disappear. So those, if there are ever any groups, they usually fade away. So the ones that left are mostly Spanish speaking groups, which is fine. But then it's more general because there's just not enough people to make individual groups of one particular niche. So yeah.
I might end up going and not understanding half of what they're saying and also not being that interested because it's about something that is not directly related to what I'm involved with. So it's a bit of a shame but I get my fill when I come to the conferences and things so it's fine.
Mathias Hansen (18:30)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and you get to travel a bit to see, go to conference all over. That's cool. All right, well, it was so nice chatting with you, Simon, and I'm really looking forward to your talk and seeing you soon.
Simon (18:33)
Yeah, it's a good excuse. Yeah.
Thanks very much, I'm looking forward to seeing you in person in Copenhagen.
Mathias Hansen (18:47)
That was Simon sharing his journey as a software developer. If you want to hear more from Simon, go see his talk at Laravel Live Denmark. You can buy your tickets now at laravellive.dk