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The Level Up Creators podcast is for digital creators ready to take their business to the next level. You'll learn valuable strategies and hear engaging stories from industry pros and digital creators who have walked the path of scaling up.
Whether you're tired of tap dancing for the algorithm or seeking to build real wealth - without the burnout - this podcast offers proven methods and practical advice to help you elevate your business, on your terms. Join us!
Amanda Northcutt (00:00)
Hey, hey, you're listening to the Level Up Creators podcast. I'm Amanda Northcote, our founder and CEO. We build boutique coaching and consulting firms for subject matter experts and thought leaders through the MRR Accelerator, where we guarantee an upside of at least $30,000 in monthly recurring revenue through our work together. And we're so glad you're here. Welcome. Today we have a very special guest, Dr. Lani Jones. Lani is a clinical psychologist and founder of HBL Advisory Group.
She helps ambitious leaders ditch conventional success and build meaningful legacies. And her The Final 1 % Framework is all about elevating leadership, relationships, and work-life clarity. Dr. Lani Jones, welcome to the show.
Lani Jones (00:36)
Thanks for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.
Amanda Northcutt (00:39)
I'm pumped too. You have such an interesting background and just kind of the amalgamation of all of your experience and education and how that's come together to inform what you do today is going to be a pretty fascinating conversation to unpack. So I appreciate you being here and taking the time and also bringing the brains and everything that you bring to the table every single day. So thank you. Let's like start off with a big question to kind of set the stage for the rest of the conversation. What does it really mean to trade conventional success for
legacy and why is that distinction pretty urgent and important right now for founders?
Lani Jones (01:13)
Yeah, love this question. The answer to this question really came out of the work I was doing with founders and ambitious leaders. And I don't know if it's so much of a trade-off as it is an extension of. And so I was working with all these high achieving individuals who had checked a lot of the boxes of success, both personally, professionally.
They had opportunities, had financial means, they had gotten the promotions, and then they were kind of like, okay, what's next? Like, do it, how do I, I'm the CEO, I can't go any higher. Do I start my own thing or where do we go next? But then we started really talking about how do we make these small tweaks, the final 1 % of decisions that are going to impact what my life looks like five years, 10 years.
20 years down the road. And so we started looking much more picture of, how do we transform that success into success that endures into that legacy piece?
Amanda Northcutt (02:15)
Nice. Let's do a little bit of terminology defining just so we're all kind of on the same page. How do the founders that you work with typically define conventional success? Or even what is your definition of conventional success? Like I think of the American dream, for instance. But what comes to mind for you?
Lani Jones (02:31)
For me, the environments that I was in early on in my career as someone with a doctorate and in academia, it was all about what's on your CV, like how long is your CV? One of my early bosses gave me the advice that if you so much as sneeze, it needs to be on your CV. And so that was the definition of success for the environments I was in. And with a lot of the...
leaders, founders I work with, yeah, it's either a financial goal, it's how big their team is, revenue, stability in their life, be it family, housing, whatever that looks like for them. And so a lot of these very clear cut external metrics.
Amanda Northcutt (03:14)
Okay. And then how do you define legacy?
Lani Jones (03:18)
Lasting impact. That's the short piece of it. And yeah. So how am I doing something? How am I using my resources, my time, my skills in a way that outlives me? Or if I'm a founder or an owner CEO, like how is what I'm doing impacting others lives? My employees, my contractors, my customers, clients, whatever that looks like of it gets them thinking in a broader way of
Amanda Northcutt (03:20)
Pretty simple, yeah, I like that.
Lani Jones (03:45)
What is their influence as well?
Amanda Northcutt (03:48)
Interesting. Thank you. And as a clinical psychologist, I mean, I don't know a lot of clinical psychologists that work with founders. That's quite niche. It's very unique. Share more about your background and your education and how you got here, right? Like back up the clock quite a lot and walk us through how you got from, I mean, say, I mean, even...
high school, early college, you can take us back to childhood if you want, but how in the world did you decide on this path and at what point did you know you wanted to work with founders and then how is your work as a psychologist informed your work with founders? That was an eight part question. You can ask me to repeat that at any point. I don't know if I'll remember all of them, but we'll do our best.
Lani Jones (04:26)
Well, we'll see how many I can remember. Going back to childhood then, I was not one who had my whole life planned out. So it was never, I'm going to get a doctorate, I'm going to be a psychologist, nothing like that. Looking back though on it, when I was applying for a key scholarship for college, there was a friend a couple of years ahead of me who had said she was going to be a child psychologist. And I had been given the advice with the interview committee.
hey, you need to have a clear path. Like they don't want to invest in anyone who's wishy washy. They want you to know what you're doing and where you're going. And so I just kind of adopted that and I'm like, okay, that sounds respectable. It sounds noble. Like for the interview purposes, that's what we're going to roll with. And then I got through my undergrad and
explore basically every medical related field from physical therapy to OTs, the psych. was like, okay, I better go do a master's then. And so then I got into a counseling program and a master's. was like, who, I don't want to do therapy forever. That, that doesn't sound like my cup of tea. So then it was like, I guess I should go do a doctorate. it's that I ended up doing a doctorate in clinical psychology. So
Maybe, yeah, seeds were planted early on just in the helping profession or being focused on people. And then I got into what I thought was my dream job in a hospital setting. And I did love the work I was doing. I just didn't love the environment I was doing it in. And one of the things that was firmly in my column of things I do not want in life was being a business owner, was owning a private practice. Like through grad school, everyone talks about, know,
Do you want an academic setting? Do you want private practice? I was like, no, no, never private practice. But then I was like, okay, all right, I guess we're going to go figure this out too. So opened my practice and huge learning curve because I had never been interested in business topics. so things like hiring your first employee and tax codes and, you know, landlords and leases and office furniture, all of that. was like, whoa, okay, all right. But
in that time really came to love business and everything it can do for you and how it's about as a founder owner, it's so much more than just an income stream. It's about how am I creating my entire life in a way that fits in with my skills, my resources, what's important to me. And so I was predominantly on the testing side of things initially like autism evaluations, ADHD, but then COVID hit.
And COVID changed so much for so many. And during that time, just by happenstance, I had started working with lot of founders and executives in the Indianapolis area. had like Eli Lilly, Roche Diagnostics. But I'd get to the end of the day and be like, is this coaching or was this therapy? Because there's a lot of gray area that can be there. And we were talking about, you know, leading their teams well.
through the pandemic or they were going through a massive reorg in the office, but they were going through a divorce at home. And so out of that work with them, I'm like, man, more in this coaching sphere, this is a way to merge. Now I love a business with my psych skills, which are all things, you know, people relationship based, which is what business is leadership. And so I'm like, man, if I transition more to that coaching consultant role,
That just gives me a lot more flexibility to use all my expertise and my skills in a way that really felt more authentic to me because under a therapy heading, it was like, your life just blew up or what you were working on just went sideways. Okay. Well, you had your 45 minute session for the week. So I'll see you next week. Whereas now it's like, all right, let's jump on a call. You know, let's problem solve right in the moment. And so now how I show up for my clients just feels a lot more.
authentic to me and to the work I'm doing.
Amanda Northcutt (08:30)
That's really, really interesting. And what a cool nonlinear path. We talk about the nonlinear path a lot here. don't think any of our clients ever set out to do what they have ended up doing. And life throws so much at us at the same time. So let's talk about that a bit more right now. So you talk about this myth of work-life balance. So if balance is the wrong goal, what's the right one? And then how does a founder sort of operationalize it, for lack of a better term, inside of their business?
Lani Jones (08:57)
So I think work-life balance has become one of those trendy lingoes. We see it everywhere across social media. It's just thrown out on the side. Everyone's talking about it. And so if we look at actually the definition of balance, it's an equilibrium or an equality of some sort. And if we look to also at some of the job research and job interview questions that are coming out, one of the most commonly asked questions for Gen Z
is about work-life balance. And just recently in the news, there's been some high profile CEOs who have made comments like, if someone asks that, they're out. They are committed. And so when we use that as our understanding of balance as an equilibrium, I do think it's a myth because if that is our goal of equality between work and life, you're going to negatively impact your career.
and you're going to negatively impact your relationships too. I often use the example of an accountant and with them in tax season, if the expectation is they are seeking balance in their home every day by five o'clock for dinner, IRS might come after them, some things aren't going to get filed, clients aren't going to be happy. It's not going to work out well.
everyone's got their own version of tax season. Like, is it a big project you're running after? Is it a promotion? Whatever it is. And so it's really all about communication, communication, communication, both with your work people, whatever that looks like, as well as a spouse, significant other, partner, whoever's living in your home, because each, there are going to be those different seasons of where there's going to be the ebbs and flows of
I'm in caregiver role. Yeah, I've got to be in my house at this time, or I've got to get this project and these deadlines complete. And so it's more about how do we find alignment? How do we communicate the season we're in, in order to, you know, quote unquote, run after that balance, so to speak.
Amanda Northcutt (11:02)
that. Are you familiar with Amanda Goetz? Okay, someone you should be familiar with. Her book just launched yesterday and it's called Toxic Grit and she has codified and like burst into the world this thing called character theory. it sounds like you guys totally jam on this for a long time, but she also believes that work-life balance is a myth, as you say.
Lani Jones (11:06)
I'm not, no.
Okay.
Amanda Northcutt (11:26)
It's more in the compartmentalization and shifting for different seasons of what role you play. And this can happen during the course of a year, can happen during the course of a month, or even within the course of a day. But being able to not be all things to all people and understand that you kind of have to shift and shift from one character to another as you go throughout your day and year, depending on like what the heck is going on.
Lani Jones (11:31)
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Northcutt (11:49)
what's on fire or what you're trying to prevent from being on fire. But anyway, you should totally grab the book. It's phenomenal, but it sounds like you guys are cut from a similar cloth for sure. Yeah. Go ahead.
Lani Jones (11:54)
I will, yeah.
I
that terminology of seasons. And I use that a lot with my clients because if you're in a startup mode, if you're in your first gig, if you just got to the C-suite, like whatever that looks like, yeah, it's like you got to put your head down and hustle. And a lot of other things are going to fall to the wayside in order to be successful on your goal. Now, if there is no end in sight, then we might need to reassess where things are.
but also seasons, if we have an endpoint, then we can be like, okay, I just got to do this for the next six months or even two years or things like that. And it also makes it feel more manageable just from that emotional mental health perspective of how do I get through this tough place?
Amanda Northcutt (12:44)
Yes. Would you be able to, obviously without blowing anybody's cover or anything like that, bring in some examples of situations that founders that you've worked with have been in where maybe things are spinning out at work and at home? I would love to talk a little bit more about how you bring in your clinical and therapeutic background and how that informs your coaching.
that is such a unique differentiator for you and such a rare combination, that you also have the business experience, right? And that you learned by rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty and figuring it out on a day-to-day basis in your own practice. So yeah, bring us back around to that. How are you coaching people in situations like this, which are frequent?
Lani Jones (13:22)
I'd say oftentimes with founders, they get two to three years in, so they're out of the initial rush or the initial putting out fires. And then they kind of have this moment to take in what they've built, what's around them. And oftentimes they're like, is this it? And back to that, that's a common theme of clients I work with. And they're asking...
Okay, why doesn't this feel better? Why doesn't this feel good? And I had one recently. We worked together for about 20 months and she's like, isn't this supposed to be it? I'm supposed to be happier. I'm successful. Like she had checked all the boxes. So on paper, everything looked really good, but she's like, I'm just not feeling fulfilled here. And this didn't, this success did not feel like what I thought it would. And so with her,
Nothing changed really, but we got really strategic. The first step I often start with clients is we look at your calendar because your calendar doesn't lie. tells us, you know, you can say, here's all my beliefs. Here's what's most important to me. Well, then let's see how you're spending your time. Like, let's see how that really pans out and what that looks like. And so we did a deep dive calendar audit. And I mean, we start peeling back the layers. This is where the psych part comes in of like,
Why is that on your calendar? Why did you say yes when you wanted to say no, why do you feel guilt over that? Why do you feel shame for not spending more time on X, Y, or Z? And so we peel back all those layers. and we do that both personally and professionally because I'm in the space of the two are intertwined. Like what you do in your home impacts your work and what you do in your work impacts your home. And so we can't just isolate them. And so we did a deep dive and we looked at where we're boundaries missing.
where was guilt causing her to do things that she really wasn't interested in, wasn't excited about, didn't necessarily positively impact her family. And so once we did that deep dive of the calendar audit, of looking at boundaries that were missing, it restructured her time. And obviously with a founder, these are not overnight changes.
If you need another hire in place, if you need to change something in your kid's schedule, like they can take six to 12 months easily, but we started building out what was her ideal. And so while nothing practically changed in terms of her being a founder, running a business, we were still able then to set up a calendar that actually felt fulfilling to her. And so she's about five years in now and is just thriving and running along. And boundaries is another piece from the psych.
Amanda Northcutt (15:39)
you
Lani Jones (15:58)
arena that I bring in it to it to both personally and professionally. How do we talk about those? How do we establish those? Because like so much in social media, there's a lot of misinformation about what is actually a healthy boundary and what does that look like? So
Amanda Northcutt (16:12)
Let's talk about that. mean, I'm also hearing frameworks for prioritization. I love that that's one of the first things you do with a new client is like, because yeah, if it's not on the calendar, it doesn't exist for me. Like I live and die by my calendar. My calendar is, if you want to go and see where I was 15 years ago at this time and date, like it's on the calendar. You will know because my life will literally fall apart if I don't have that level of structure. And with founders,
Lani Jones (16:23)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
you
Amanda Northcutt (16:37)
Like myself, it's so funny. We are right at the two and a half year mark with Level Up. I'm extremely fulfilled and happy, and we keep pushing, pushing, pushing forward. So I'm glad I'm not in that headspace right now, but I can definitely understand how you could be. And it is so imperative to have those frameworks for prioritization and daily decision making that roll down from your goals. And your goals should roll down from your long-term vision. And it's kind of this whole operating system, right? So tell me a little bit more about the things that you find.
Lani Jones (16:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Amanda Northcutt (17:04)
in calendars most often that are surprising and I'm sure you are because you're a psychologist. Are you familiar with the concept of expressed preference versus revealed preference? Okay. I find that fascinating and you saying, okay, here is your expressed preference that you told me during our sales conversations and onboarding and then here's your revealed preferences as are reflected in your calendar and how you're spending your time on a day to day basis. So what are some of the most common sort of expressed versus revealed mismatches that you see as you're going through?
Lani Jones (17:14)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Northcutt (17:34)
founders' calendars, and then how do you help them, how do you help sort of seed frameworks to help them more effectively prioritize and so that their expressed preferences match their revealed preferences.
Lani Jones (17:47)
I would say, once we start having the conversation, I have them take at least a week or two and put everything on the calendar. I'm like, I want to know what every waking moment is. I want to know how long you're sleeping. Like we want all the data and probably for them, one of the biggest eye-openers is the amount spent on screen times. And oftentimes this is in those evening hours leading up to sleep. It's a coping mechanism. And I get that like,
They're stressed, they're tired, they got kids to bed. They finally shut the laptop. They're like, I don't want to think. I just want my brain to go on autopilot, but it could be easily like two to three hours that they're spending before they actually get to sleep. so impacting sleep and sleep issues are another thing we talk about too, because that impacts our functioning and how we're showing up and attention and executive functioning and all of that. And so that's probably one of the biggest, biggest eye-openers from them.
is like these coping outlets or the wanting to just not feel the wanting to escape. Because yeah, that's the path of least resistance. And so it's totally understandable. It makes sense. And all of our social media streaming apps are set up to reinforce that type of behavior. And so once we get clear on the data, then we can start going through, what is values aligned? And so that's another one of the first steps is we figure out
Where are you going? Why are you going there? And what's important along the way? And honestly, that's just mission, vision, and values like in disguise. But people can be very reactive to that lingo, probably because it's been done not so great in the business world or, you know, most employees couldn't even tell you what your mission statement is if you even have one. And so then it's literally going through, OK, what is values aligned with me?
You know, what is that expressed versus revealed? What am I doing out of guilt or shame? So what should be a no? What actually brings me life? Oftentimes there's not enough on there that actually excites them. I was meeting with a founder just last week and we were talking through, okay, her next step. was kind of out of that initial first year period. And we started just.
high level brainstorming through things and we kind of get to a pause. I'm like, are you excited about this plan? And she goes, no, not at all. It's like, okay, back to the drawling board. Like, all right, you're driving the ship here. And she was in a position where she could easily pivot because she was a service based industry. And so she could make those changes, but
Amanda Northcutt (20:15)
Ooh, ooh, yeah.
Lani Jones (20:28)
Yeah, it was all those I would have, could have, should have, the guilt. Here's what I'm supposed to prioritize. Here's what success looks like. And so we go through a detailed audit of figuring out, what are those points in my life that are aligning, what are not aligning, and then go from there.
Amanda Northcutt (20:45)
Love that mission vision values. Those are the three sections on this thing called we call a North Star document in the MRR method. And that is the foundational seminal document of the business. Everything is built around that. It's like, here's where we're going. Here's what is going to be true in 10 years because of the work that we're starting to do today. And everything maps to that. And so it's the North Star. Like we're always looking at that. We're all rowing in the same direction. Everyone is aligned. So I think Maddie Wagner introduced you and I. Is that right?
Lani Jones (21:02)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love Maddie, yeah.
Amanda Northcutt (21:14)
Yeah, okay. She knew what she was doing. Yeah.
Okay, that's awesome. So when you are helping a founder change their calendar, I guess what are like frameworks for how you help a founder set up their calendar if that's not too much secret sauce for the show?
Lani Jones (21:28)
Yeah, not too much secret sauce. so we also go back to use the North star. Some people call it mission vision values. I use a lot of those w words of where are we going? Why are we going there? What are we doing? That just seems to be more palatable for people. And so that we also then do on the side because like you said, North star, like, okay, we got all this calendar data. We've got what's revealed expressed all of that.
But if we do not have that North Star, like we don't know then how to work within the calendar. And so that's another piece too of even when we're going through like values of what's important to you. I use a lot of Socratic questioning. And so we start with things like, okay, what's one of your pet peeves? What's something that annoys you or on the flip side of that, who's someone you really admire? And so we start pulling out those characteristics that
are important to you. might be integrity, work ethic, curiosity, empathy, compassion. so figuring out, okay, how then do we layer that onto that calendar? And then our mission, why are we doing what we're doing? So if there is something that is just out of guilt on that calendar of, I had to be the PTO mom for the 10th time in a row or...
neighborhood watch party or whatever it is. Okay. Is that aligning with your mission and what you're trying to accomplish? And then that vision of where are we going? Is this actually, as you said, that North star 10, 20 years down the road, is that going to get us to that place?
Amanda Northcutt (22:48)
Yeah.
Love that. Okay, cool. Thank you. And then one question that comes to mind, because I this is relevant for a couple of my clients. It has certainly been relevant for me at times, but for founders who are really struggling with stress and therefore really struggling with sleep and they're in this vicious cycle. Obviously we've talked about putting the phone away, getting off social media. What are some other...
I'm asking you to definitely put your clinical psychologist hat on here. What are some of the things that you tell founders to do in order to improve their sleep quality, which will then kick off this virtuous cycle instead of the vicious hamster wheel?
Lani Jones (23:37)
Yeah. So this is going to be a long discussion. Like I've spent 60 to 90 minute sessions only discussing sleep because oftentimes, yeah, it's, can't shut down my brain. I'm too stressed, anxious, whatever that looks like. And so we first have to tackle those underlying issues. Like what is the stress? What is in your control and out of your control? That's definitely a piece of, we talk through agency a lot and
what is it we have to let go versus I need to act on this now. Because oftentimes when there's like so many decisions being made as founders and sometimes they're the bottleneck and you know, we have to work through delegation issues. There's that paralyzing fear of it's just an overwhelm of I don't know where to go next. Like I am so stuck here in the midst of all of these decisions that have to be made.
And so we really take a lot of time. And once again, we peel back those layers of, okay, let's compartmentalize, let's articulate the stress because sometimes there's a hidden, you know, ingrained belief about how this impacts their identity. And so that's what's really keeping them up at night. And so, yeah, we go through systematically.
Amanda Northcutt (24:48)
yeah.
you
Lani Jones (24:52)
I love some data to help us make informed decision-making. And so we use all of that data of understanding, getting all their stress, anxiety sources out because oftentimes just mentally then that's a big piece that can, we can see good growth in, in their sleep. but then yeah, we get to the practical of what time our screen's going off. Ideally, it's at least an hour. know that's a lot to ask for most people.
So we start with 15 minutes or small increments, whatever they can do. Then we get into even the behavioral stuff, the practicals of the environment. Like what does that look like in terms of temperature, light, sleeping with a partner, whatever those pieces are. Then we also look at the wake up side of things too. I would say early on in my career, I definitely felt that pressure that if I was not up by like 6 a.m., then I was not successful. I was not serious.
I was not going to like go far. And I felt a lot of guilt around, okay, I have to be up at this time if I'm really serious about my career. Hated it, felt sluggish during my days. I am a total night owl. Probably most of my dissertation was written between the hours of 10 PM and 2 AM. And so that's one of my best work times, which doesn't fit with a lot of my meeting schedule now, but...
I'm usually kind of 11 30 PM to a 7 30 AM. And that takes some discipline for me to maintain that and not get after that midnight Mark. Uh, but that's another big piece too, of we've reassessed their morning schedule. Like some things, yeah, you just can't shift if you have to show up in an office or if you have kids schedules, partner schedules, things like that. But what do you have agency over? Because even for some it's giving them that permission of, okay, we're looking at your whole hours, what you're accomplishing.
not just some mark of, yeah, you're up at like 430 or something.
Amanda Northcutt (26:49)
I'm so glad you said that because I do get so tired of hearing it's like the vocal minority around like if you're not up or sometimes like 4 a.m. or something like that. And if that works for you and that's your chronotype where you're most productive between 5 a.m. and 10 a.m. or whatever, that is so good for you. And if you know that about yourself and are disciplined enough to get up and do it, hell yeah. If that is not you, that's okay. That's totally okay. You don't have to follow this vocal.
Lani Jones (27:01)
Great.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Northcutt (27:16)
minority that is screaming down your throat, maybe like unfollow those people and finding your own path. I think there's so much to be said for that because our businesses are as unique as we are as founders. so you giving people permission, I think a lot of the time it's the permission and then the path that follows and you being this guide with the flashlight, like you've blazed the trail, you've already cut all the trees down, like you know the way, you've got other clients who are on the other side of that now. So I love that.
that you're taking a hyper-personalized approach. then you've got, again, both the business and the clinical psychology side to marry together to bring forward really, really unique, helpful, actionable advice and coaching. Because this is not steeped in heady theory. And we're staying at this sort of 50,000 foot level. But you were on the ground floor with these people. I think probably looking at their sleep data from their Apple watches and stuff like that.
Lani Jones (28:09)
Yeah.
Amanda Northcutt (28:10)
I think that is really, really cool. Let's talk about, okay, so that's the beginning of your work with folks and you're moving people toward this, the final 1%. We mentioned that earlier in your intro, you alluded to it when you answered my first question. So tell me a little bit more again about what that is and then how you help your clients draw the line from calendar audit to final 1%. And then you also often use some phrasing around basically how
Lani Jones (28:20)
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Northcutt (28:38)
You can be the same person in the boardroom as in the living room. And I think the final 1 % ties into that. Do I have that right?
Lani Jones (28:42)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah. So part of merging my psych with the business world is how do you show up just as successfully in the living room as in the boardroom? Because the two influence each other. And so even when we're looking at that vision, and so usually we do a shorter term vision, like maybe it's a year out, two years out, a lot of that just depends where you are as a founder and what season of business you're in and what makes sense. But then
we start doing like a 10 year to some extent, at least sometimes people get a little freaked out by that, but at least a general outline of that, because then we figure out, okay, here's where we're going in the short term, here's where we're going in the long term. But in each of those visions, we're looking at your relationships, we're looking at your community philanthropy impact, we're looking at finances, we're looking at career, professional.
workplace goals. And so for each of those areas, like you will have a key, here's where I'm going. Here's what the goals are, which then informs why am I doing what I'm doing today? And I think with one of the difficult things is oftentimes what we're doing to get to that big vision, which feels great. And we can dream and sit with that is it's really the little ordinary things, the mundane.
on a daily basis, it's all that consistency that compounds. And so one of the phrases I often share with my clients is, did you make today matter? Did today matter? Now there's not a clear cut answer to that, but that's like a daily accountability. I try and get them in of, what was like my health or my fitness? How was I supposed, what was on the agenda to show up in my relationship sphere today?
Amanda Northcutt (30:25)
Mm-hmm.
Lani Jones (30:34)
what needed to be done at work because so often as founders, when we're just inundated with all these decisions, we're like, okay, I'll get to that project later. I'll get to that next store. I'll do this here. Whereas if we say no today matters because I do not have today back, it also creates that sense of urgency. gets the snowball effect rolling of that motivation piece. And so we also really focus on just what is the mindset of today.
Amanda Northcutt (31:02)
that. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. I have so many questions. I'm trying to figure out which ones I want to go with next. I like I wanted to zoom in on so many of these things because this is going to be really, really helpful and practical episode. So thank you again. Let's talk about boundaries and saying no, since you were just talking about that. I know that with women founders in particular that I work with, often setting the boundary and saying no and not people pleasing and saying no to the PTO thing. It's like, I will donate money.
For instance, to this cause and someone else who has the execute, maybe executional capacity, but not the money could do the executing part, right? And then that's a perfect, you know, pairing. So how do you help founders who really, really struggle with people pleasing and saying no, say no to the right things?
Lani Jones (31:45)
So once again, we got to figure out all your mission, vision, values. So what do we need to be saying no to? I was working with one founder who comes to mind and she was having a lot of guilt over all of saying no to all these community engagement, community networking, speaking opportunities. She was about 15 years in, so very well established, business was thriving. And so she got consistently.
all these, you know, invitations to come speak and said no to most of them and was just really feeling inundated by that guilt because she's like, I'm a female founder. So there's this extra responsibility. I should be giving back to my community in this way. And so we really unpacked that guilt was because she's in a season of two like teenagers and so full force on all the activities and she wanted to prioritize.
being home with family, why she's leading and all these other things. And so we had to get clear on, in the season, what is most important? What do you value most? But then we also did the free frame on that of, I suggested she come up with a list of other female founders in the community who she could then hand off names because I'm like, actually that's helping them too. Like you're giving them an opportunity to show up in that space to meet people. I'm like,
Amanda Northcutt (33:01)
Yes.
Lani Jones (33:07)
This is a win-win. And oftentimes with those situations we're saying no to, if we can figure out how is there a win-win, sometimes that's not as clear cut. But how are we giving other people an opportunity to step up? Because she was also in, hey, I'll give money to whatever. Like I will financially support scholarships. And I'm like, okay, that is how you are showing up in the season. And that's what works for you. So she was like backing some,
like internship or scholarship programs for like female entrepreneurs, things like that. And we had to reframe of just because you can't do this or are choosing not to do this one thing with your time doesn't make the financial contributions any less significant. so going back to the PTO mom of, okay, maybe yes, you are not there every Friday at 9 a.m. to do reading time, but are you back?
you know, the financial piece of the classroom or giving in other ways. And so not valuing or devaluing, you know, one way of showing up over the other.
Amanda Northcutt (34:13)
Preach. Love it. Man, oh, that was really beautifully said. And so many people need to hear that. There's lots of different ways to get things done and to contribute and help others. And I love the reframe around who are the women who need elevation that you can, I like the phrases like pull other people up the ladder. I like the phrase, send the elevator back down. This woman sounds like a bad ass. I want to like meet this woman and give her a high five and a hug. And like, wow, awesome. Talk about.
Lani Jones (34:14)
You
She is, yeah. She is.
Amanda Northcutt (34:42)
You being the model of possibility for women who are coming behind you. We're talking about the trail that you've blazed, Lani, and then the trail that this woman's blazed. I'm following behind it. So that's KitKas. I love it. So OK, you talked about habits earlier and how the small actions that we perform day over day really end up creating success long term that is sustainable. I have a whole spiel on
the BS that is overnight success and what it actually takes to be sustainably successful, especially in building a recurring revenue business. And I would love for you to just speak your POV on that.
Lani Jones (35:18)
I think one of the biggest issues to that founders encounter is that decision-making fatigue. Like it's so real, like a million times of just throughout your workday and then you go home and you're confronted with that. so habits decrease the decision-making fatigue. And so that's why, you know, systems operating when you're in business are so key to getting things running smoothly, but also personally,
all those daily habits. Like if we look at a lot of top executives or CEOs, founders, like they the same thing every day. They wear the same thing every day. Like it's even in those little things that seem the mundane and the ordinary, how can we take decision-making out of that? And so how do we just get those things rolling on autopilot? Like if you're going to home every day at six, seven o'clock and you're like, what's for dinner? my gosh. Like
I hate answering that question. That takes time and effort, or even if we're going out. I don't want to make that decision. I want someone to make that for me. Just someone get food in front of me, please. And so how do we break down and go through? And so we go through morning routines. I am huge on delegation too. Oftentimes with female founders, I find that there's a lot of guilt to work through on that because they're like, if I'm able, if I can, I should.
Amanda Northcutt (36:15)
Yeah. Yes.
Lani Jones (36:41)
And it's like, no, no, no. Like as much as you can hire out of a house manager, a nanny, cleaning, food prep, grocery runs, whatever that is, I am huge on that of how can we take those things off your plate so you can focus on what can only I do.
Amanda Northcutt (37:02)
Amen. Yep. Okay. I have this post-it out at my desk. I have to show you. It says, stop shooting on yourself. And I have like a whole row. I have a gigantic monitor and I have a whole row of post-its that I hold up when the mood strikes. But that's such a good one. That's such a, that's a big one for women. Obviously to overcome some men too as well. But yeah, should, should, should. Bullshit. Stop it. I love everything you're saying. This is so...
Lani Jones (37:09)
Yes!
Amanda Northcutt (37:30)
Great. I love the habitualization of values and here's how to bake your values into the decisions that you're making. And again, that's all leading toward that mission and vision that you're marching toward. Really fascinating. Okay. We just have a few minutes left. So, oh, you know what, actually I'm going to yes and you for a minute on the decision fatigue. As you were telling that story, I was remembering like the first like really year and a half. No, I'd say until the spring, let's say two years.
fully on this business. My husband and I would frequently go out to dinner on a Friday night. And I would be like, I cannot decide where we're going. I cannot decide if I want a drink or which drink I want. I can't decide an appetizer. I can't decide food. I don't know if I want dessert. And so he was just like, I got you. We've been together for two decades. Like he can order for me at this point if I'm in that state. But that is so true. I mean, it is just, your brain reaches a tipping point and...
Lani Jones (38:19)
I love it. ⁓
Amanda Northcutt (38:24)
You have to acknowledge that and just not continually try and push through those boundaries, which I spent a lot of years doing and paid dearly for it. And I will also second the household staff. I have a household staff and I am wanting to be like more and more vocal about that. Our life would not work without that. It would crumble to pieces. And we take a tremendous amount of joy in providing really good jobs for people as well and having flexibility and all that stuff. so it's...
Lani Jones (38:36)
Awesome.
Amanda Northcutt (38:51)
It's kind of that reframe from like, I should be doing this all myself, or people are to judge me, or my siblings, or my neighbors, whatever, are going to judge me for who's parked in my driveway and helping me out today or whatever. And being like, no, it is a joy to be able to employ people, to have these things done, and living in extraordinary state of gratitude for being able to afford those things and have those things and have relationships with those people who are in our home.
trust and mentorship and things like that. It's really, really cool and amazing and a privilege as well. So I love that, you and I just totally in sync on that. Let's wrap up talking about imposter syndrome.
Lani Jones (39:31)
Okay.
Amanda Northcutt (39:32)
Tell
me how you help folks with that.
Lani Jones (39:34)
One of the first steps is let's stop vilifying imposter syndrome. Like let's take away the negativity, because I think it gets a really bad rap that it's just something we need to work through and get rid of. Whereas hopefully there is a little imposter syndrome because that can really just mean you're showing up in a space where you don't quite have all the skills needed to be successful and you have the self-awareness of this.
but also the adage of if you have all of the skills and a job description and get hired for that, you're actually going to outgrow that too fast. And so it's actually normal to be hired for a position to not yet have all of the skills you need to be successful. And so if you are not putting yourself in those positions where you are uncomfortable, where you do not have all your skills you need, then you are not going to grow.
And so I've seen so many people just playing it safe because they don't want to have the imposter syndrome. They don't want to be aware that they don't have all the skills they need at that time to eventually be successful. And so if we reframe this imposter syndrome of, okay, this is a growth opportunity for me. This is me showing my emotional intelligence and I'm aware that I don't have all these skills yet.
Now I'm going to do everything to get them. I'm going to seek all the opportunities to grow and develop them. And so I really start by, yeah, let's just change that perception around imposter syndrome and see it as a growth opportunity versus something we just need to get rid of.
Amanda Northcutt (41:10)
Love it. Again, on the reframe, are you psychologist or something? I mean, come on. That's really great. Yeah, they're so important. They're an undervalued skill. So I think, yeah, that's a good one to highlight and elevate. OK, so I have a little rapid fire round for you. And I think you just answered the first one. So one belief to unlearn about success. I think that would be potentially around imposter syndrome, that that is not necessarily the worst thing in the world.
Lani Jones (41:15)
Love reframes.
Amanda Northcutt (41:36)
And I've had imposter syndrome, I think, for the first time since very early in my career this year. And my career has been throttled very significantly. I've turned down a handful of CEO positions at other organizations because I have not been well enough to assume that role. And so now I'm here, and we're doing exceptionally well. every day, it feels like being asked to step into a bigger and bigger and bigger pair of shoes, making sure that I am combining all the things that I know to date.
and all the new skills to step into those shoes. I think it's also important in addition to the household staffing and around the theme of hiring coaches, hiring people to help. Obviously, Level Up is hyper premium service. It costs $175,000 to work with us. That's why we guarantee this massive result of working with us. But I'm spending over the next 12 months or so, about $125,000 on my personal development and growth because the shoes are bigger and bigger and bigger. And so,
Lani Jones (42:27)
Yeah.
Amanda Northcutt (42:28)
For anyone who is hesitant or afraid or feels like they need permission or like, who am I to hire myself a coach or a consultant or something like that, give it a shot. Find someone that you love and have extraordinary values alignment around and run an experiment. Do a trial. I tried a number of things before committing to five things that total up to 125K. And I have extraordinary confidence that I'm going to get ridiculous returns on those investments.
Lani Jones (42:40)
Yes.
Amanda Northcutt (42:58)
Okay, back to you since this is your rapid fire round. What is one conversation that a founder should have with their spouse or partner this week that will help them?
Lani Jones (43:07)
bring your partner in on your goals. And this might sound so basic, so obvious, but the majority of the time, I find that founders are not bringing their partners into the conversation. And so this could be daily goals, like even your morning routine, like what's that look like? And oftentimes they know they need, okay, I need 30 more minutes for this, or I need to shift this, but they aren't clearly communicating to that partner like,
can you take over a kid duty in the morning or can we trade off on these responsibilities, whatever that looks like. And they also haven't had a clear conversation of here's where I want to go and here's where I'm going. And so your North star, your mission, vision values, where you're going, why you're going there, like have that conversation with your partner. Cause I guarantee you, if you two are on the same page, man, you're going to go so much farther, so much faster. And I think too.
They just like assume that their partner knows or their partner sees them doing things or they're like, well, yeah, they know this is a priority or they know this is what I'm working towards. But oftentimes I'll say, okay, go ask the other partner like to define where you're going. And sometimes it's that total eye opening of, wow, okay. They didn't quite know where I was going. So talk to your partner, get on the same page.
Amanda Northcutt (44:29)
Love it. And then what is one really practical change that listeners can make to their calendar today that will have long-term dividends?
Lani Jones (44:37)
Go look at what don't you want to be on there? Just start with the, man, I wish that wasn't on there. And then figure out, can I take it off? Why is it even on there in the first place? Is it just Gill expectation? Take off the things that do not excite you, do not contribute to your goals, to where you're going. And just try and delete even before you try and figure out what to add. What can you delete?
Amanda Northcutt (45:03)
I love that. I love the do, defer, don't do, and delegate. The first is like, what can go away? spicy. OK, I got to stop myself there. We could talk for another hour. Dr. Lani, this has been so freaking fun and fascinating. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom, practical toolkits. Where can our listeners go to connect with you?
Lani Jones (45:19)
Yeah, they can head to my website, [drdrlanijones.com](http://drdrlanijones.com/). If they're ready for that next step of where do I start getting my North Star? Where do I find my mission, vision and values? How do I do a calendar audit? That next step is available as a resource on my website, or they can connect with me over on LinkedIn.
Amanda Northcutt (45:39)
Perfect. And we will have both of those links, of course, in the show notes and show descriptions. Thank you again. Really appreciate your time.
And to our listeners, we know that your time is precious. We are so grateful for you spending a bit of yours with us today. If you're a subject matter expert or thought leader running a boutique coaching or consulting firm and it's not shaping up to be everything you thought it would, head over to [MRRAccelerator.com](http://mrraccelerator.com/) to see how we help founders like you regain their sanity and run a multi-five figure MRR earning machine. We'll see you next time on the Level Up Creators podcast. Thank you.