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This week on The Dad Manual, I’ve invited my friend Adam Hibble, father to 16-year-old Maya, to share his unconventional approach to modern fatherhood that began before pregnancy: a vision statement that evolved through playful teasing, open-ended questions, and countless short conversations. Adam reveals how his parenting style emerged from his own father's listening-first approach and the community of men around him. He opens up about the mistakes he made—including inadvertently limiting his daughter's emotional expression—and how he's worked to heal his own childhood wounds to break generational cycles. This parenting podcast explores the balance between fun and boundaries, the importance of apologizing when jokes don't land, and why being a dad means constantly learning on the job. Maya's confidence and emotional intelligence stand as testament to the power of being present, patient, and willing to do the hard work of self-reflection.
Key Takeaways:
- Create a parenting vision statement with your partner before your child arrives
- Model the ability to apologize when your attempts at humor or discipline don't land well
- Ask yourself "What would I have wanted at this age?" to guide your parenting decisions
- Focus on 1,000 short conversations rather than a few long, heavy talks
- Heal your own childhood wounds before trying to instill values you don't embody yourself
- Use playful teasing strategically to build resilience and humor in your children
- Practice listening more than talking and asking open-ended questions
- Allow children to express emotions without needing to categorize or justify them
- Take care of yourself first so you can better care for your family
- Remember that parenting is learn-as-you-go; you don't need all the answers upfront
If you enjoyed The Dad Manual, leave us a rating on your podcast app! If you loved it, share this episode with a Dad! Send your questions to thedadmanual@gmail.com.
Connect with Tony Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thetonycooper/
Creators and Guests
What is The Dad Manual?
The Dad Manual is a fatherhood podcast hosted by Tony Cooper, featuring honest conversations with dads about the real, unfiltered journey of parenthood. This parenting podcast for dads explores everything from the excitement of being a first time dad to navigating the teenage years. As one of the best podcasts for expecting dads and experienced fathers alike, we dive deep into what it actually means to be a modern dad—the struggles, the growth, the mistakes, and the moments that change you forever. Whether you're looking for a new dad podcast or seasoned parenting wisdom, this family podcast delivers the honest guidance you won't find in books.
[Tony Cooper] (0:00 - 0:02)
What's a fake yell sound like?
[Adam Hibble] (0:03 - 0:09)
I would just get over the top like, Hi, Maya! You know, and there's always a tone I use. I'll be like, Maya!
[Tony Cooper] (0:10 - 0:34)
I have a friend who says he has a foolproof test to see if you should be in therapy, and it goes like this. Do you have parents? Well, I am here with one of my favorite dads, Adam.
Adam, can you please introduce yourself?
[Adam Hibble] (0:35 - 0:39)
Yeah, I'm Adam Hibble. I'm a great dad and I have some wisdom to share.
[Tony Cooper] (0:40 - 0:50)
Yeah, awesome. Let's dig into it. So let's just start.
You have one incredible daughter, so start just like, tell me about Maya.
[Adam Hibble] (0:51 - 1:32)
Oh, let's see. Maya is 16 and a half right now, and she is, in general, a great kid. Like, very proud of her.
Let's see, about her. She loves her friends. She loves, she does like 12 hours of dance competition practice each week, so she loves dance and competing in dance.
She gets good grades, and for a 16-year-old, she is certainly a considerate and sweet kid on the scale, on the scale that I've seen, yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (1:32 - 2:11)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, she is, you know, when I visited you in Oregon last year, when it was the first time I'd seen her in years, and just like, what a, like, she's a person, and what a wonderful person she is. Like, that was, she was just so gracious, and there was, like, I noticed, like, a complete lack of, like, awkwardness, and like, she was one of my dad's friends.
I mean, I've known her since she was a little kid, but I hadn't seen her in a long time, and there was none of that awkwardness, so it was really, it was really sweet to interact, and now I've seen her a few more times, so she is, I can agree with everything you're saying.
[Adam Hibble] (2:11 - 2:23)
Yeah, she seems to have a lot more comfort with herself in general confidence, way more than I did, or my wife did at that age, so I don't know where she got it from, but yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (2:23 - 2:39)
Yeah, who knows? Stork, probably. Yeah.
Think back to when you guys got pregnant, and when she was born. Like, what was the process of you becoming a dad like? Like, what did that mean to you?
[Adam Hibble] (2:39 - 3:14)
It was very amorphous and open-ended at the time. You know, there really were no, you know, I had people to talk with about what to expect, certainly, but, like, really being prepared for it, there is no way to prepare for it. It's just like, you know, you're on the job training, so one of the things, you know, early on, Suzette and I put together, like, a CPR, you know, having a baby and what we wanted to, what we wanted to give to that child, and we also kind of put together, like, a little vision statement for what we wanted for her.
[Tony Cooper] (3:14 - 3:17)
Wait, that was, like, when she was pregnant? While she was pregnant, did I say that?
[Adam Hibble] (3:18 - 3:46)
Actually, even before she got pregnant, so when it was clear, like, we were trying, you know, we wanted to both figure out how best to prepare and, at the same time, kind of figure out our different parenting styles, which unfolded as, you know, once we had Maya, those styles became very apparent over time as, you know, she grew in age.
[Tony Cooper] (3:46 - 3:54)
Where do you feel like your parenting style came from? Like, what influenced it, or how did it emerge? Like, what did you notice?
[Adam Hibble] (3:54 - 4:06)
I think a lot of it probably came from my father in terms of, you know, doing more listening than talking and kind of asking open-ended questions.
[Tony Cooper] (4:07 - 4:09)
That was what your dad was like?
[Adam Hibble] (4:10 - 4:21)
Yeah. Oh, okay. You know, my parenting style also came from the men that were around me at the time, like you.
You'd already, you know, you had kids.
[Tony Cooper] (4:22 - 4:23)
A head start, yeah.
[Adam Hibble] (4:24 - 4:30)
Yeah, you had a good three to four year head start on us, at least. Yeah, more than that.
[Tony Cooper] (4:30 - 4:33)
Dude, Olivia's 20, almost 23.
[Adam Hibble] (4:34 - 4:44)
Wow, okay, so you had quite a head start, yeah. And Leo, Leo certainly had, what, a good three years on her, maybe four years on her, I remember.
[Tony Cooper] (4:45 - 4:45)
He's 21.
[Adam Hibble] (4:46 - 4:46)
Wow.
[Tony Cooper] (4:47 - 4:59)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, five to seven years, yeah. So like a life cycle.
I mean, I was, you know, a whole seven year cycle ahead of your dad experience, yeah.
[Adam Hibble] (4:59 - 5:35)
Yeah, so I think parenting style came a lot from both the men around me, as well as my own father, a little bit from my mother. And I think, you know, general style is more listening, lots of open-ended questions, lots of teasing. There's certainly, from the get-go, there's a lot of teasing, so she could, you know, she could get comfortable with people poking fun or teasing and learn how to play with that and not take it personal, that kind of thing.
[Tony Cooper] (5:36 - 5:46)
What was that like? That, I mean, you had to like certainly go too far at times and then dial it back, but what were those moments like?
[Adam Hibble] (5:48 - 6:30)
Sure, just, you know, saying funny little things to her or off the wall comments or, you know, like her nickname when, you know, she was one year old, like the nickname she got was monkey butt. And that kind of stayed with her for quite some time. And I still call her that from time to time and she laughs about it.
And she laughed about it the whole time. One time she asked me, why do you call me that? And I said, because when you were changing your diaper when you were little, you had a bright red butt and so we called you monkey butt.
So those kinds of like little fun and teasing for her to get used to how to play like that. Those were certainly integrated, yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (6:31 - 6:36)
But like, yeah, I mean, how did you know what was in range and what was too far?
[Adam Hibble] (6:36 - 7:01)
Probably experimenting, you know, certain things don't land, you know, like adding levity. Sometimes it lands, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you gotta go back and apologize and say, this is what I meant.
And this wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. And that's part of the, certainly part of the process so that she can develop rust and know how to, know also how to express when something didn't land for her, et cetera.
[Tony Cooper] (7:01 - 7:06)
Is she pretty good about that? Like being able to communicate that for herself?
[Adam Hibble] (7:07 - 7:36)
She is pretty good about that, certainly. She is not nearly like as emotional as her, as Suzette, her mom. She tends to kind of, you know, if she's feeling something, she will not necessarily like blurt it out.
She'll start to internally like process it. And then sometimes she will ask questions, like to get clear or to, you know, create connection where there is a breaking connection or something like that.
[Tony Cooper] (7:36 - 7:50)
You said you got from your dad, the idea of like just being in that place of asking open-ended questions and be curious, what was your, what was, what is your relationship with your dad and how did that show up in your fathering?
[Adam Hibble] (7:51 - 9:20)
My dad, I think in general, a big part of the way my dad parented. And I think the way that he just is with other people is he generally does his best to put himself in the other person's shoes. So he kind of asks questions from that perspective.
Like, you know, to gain closeness and to open up dialogue. You know, he generally uses that kind of practice. Like, how did this feel to you?
Where are you coming from? How was that experience? Did it scare you?
You know, were you excited? How does it feel physically in your body? You know, I think I talk more as a father or ask more questions as a father.
Than he did. But that kind of coming from a perspective of putting, trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes. I think that was a big part of his parenting.
Granted, there were times where it was like, you know, I did something that was like, you know, and he would be rash in his response. And, you know, there were those times. So it wasn't always the same.
You know, those, my dad was a bit of comedy and he was a bit of Clint Eastwood. And he was a bit of, you know, he's also a bit of like, you know, Gandhi at the same time. Like he kind of had those three to pull from.
And he, it seemed like random, which he was going to pull from at a certain time.
[Tony Cooper] (9:21 - 9:22)
It sounds a lot like you.
[Adam Hibble] (9:23 - 9:24)
To a certain extent. Yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (9:25 - 9:54)
No, I think it's a pretty good description. It's such an interesting thing becoming a dad because the first thing that comes up, at least for me, and I think our experience is like my childhood. Like I'm seeing a childhood unfold in front of me and it's hard, you know, and I just always project myself into that.
And then thought about my relationship with my parents and who do I want to be? And, you know, how much of any of that, like from your childhood shows up in your parenting in my life?
[Adam Hibble] (9:56 - 12:09)
Oh, well, my biological mom left when I was five and I saw her like once a year after that. So there, you know, the, you know, there's kind of a tendency for me to want to make sure everything's all right and create closeness and always like, you know, are we good? You know, that question is always in the background.
Are we good? So that's, I think that did play a part with kind of raising Maya. And there might be, you know, the pendulum might've swung the other way in a bit and that like, I would often feel like wanting to make sure that we were close and that we weren't pulling apart from some big event, like that we still had closeness and, you know, the communication line with each other.
And there were times where I, you know, sometimes I wanted that more than was necessary for parenting. It's like parenting is kind of like this odd mix of like, especially from my perspective, like the first thing is I've got a job to do. Like first and foremost, I need to make sure she's successful.
Like whether she likes me or I like her in the moment or we're getting along, that's not the priority. The priority is, you know, doing things in a way that ensure that she's gonna be successful but also feel loved and cared for, et cetera. So that secondary part of like trying to always wanting to make sure that we're like on the same page and we're close.
And if we have some kind of breaking, you know, belonging that we clean it up, but like as quickly as possible, you know, I may early have overcompensated for that. As time progressed, I started to get really clear. Like there are times where she's not gonna like me and won't be happy with, you know, the situation I've set up, meaning like what's gonna be best for her is not gonna be what she likes necessarily in every moment.
So having to develop like a certain kind of tough skin was kind of part of my own learning process, I think over time in parenting.
[Tony Cooper] (12:10 - 12:58)
You mean that you've developed a tough skin, if she doesn't like you, it's not impacting, you're able to stay focused on the- Right, my priority is her success. Yeah. So how'd you do that?
Like what was your way of going about setting yourself up to go, there's gonna be some periods of time where she doesn't like me, but I know why I'm doing it and I know what the net result will be. How do you, especially given the experience you had of like your mother leaving and so whatever mark that left, whatever sort of, you know, abandonment concern, like that had to come up in those moments. So how did you work to be there for Maya and not like be reliving your childhood?
[Adam Hibble] (12:58 - 15:12)
Yeah, I think the practice was kind of, you know, first and foremost to slow things down, no rash decisions or rash commentary. Like, you know, something happened like, you know, she missed her curfew or something like that and by a significant time, then, you know, there are often consequences around that. But instead of this, you know, instead of me getting upset immediately and throwing down like, this is what's gonna happen, I think I spent more time practicing, thinking things through and having some questions with her and then taking some more time and thinking like, what's the best remedy to this solution?
And then talking through that with Suzette and making sure that we were on the same page and that how we delivered something was in the same kind of context, overall context and purpose. And then having kind of a methodical discussion with her. And granted, we tend to keep discussions with her short because her, I think with any kid or even young adult, you know, their attention is pretty short.
So you gotta hit it in a short period of time without dragging on for her to like grok, you know, everything that's going on. But I think, you know, we'd lay it out, like making sure that she feels heard first and then letting her know like where the break was and how that affects us, how it would affect her as an adult if that happened. And then from there, like saying, do you get this?
We are all on the same page. And then, you know, if there's related consequences, like, okay, we need to adjust this somehow. So there's a consequence and it could look like this or it could look and give her a menu, like and have all the consequences, whatever that menu is, like kind of be in line with the learning of, you know, what went wrong, like something that would support her and kind of be in line with the overall context of the event.
[Tony Cooper] (15:13 - 16:07)
I just struck by just how thoughtful, like how much consideration that you put into all of those things. And I think that's, it's not always the easiest thing to do is to, as you just laid it out, like work through all those aspects of it. One of the things that I think I was terrible at as a dad was the consequences side.
I just never knew how to use that effectively. And because I didn't, I don't think my kids got many like actual consequences, like lose privilege kind of consequences. I think what they get from me more is like, like I've just, you know, kind of like you get a lot of disapproval from me sort of thing, you know, but I thought it was a pretty bad, pretty shit consequence.
But like, how did you work with consequences and how do you think they like helped with the situation?
[Adam Hibble] (16:08 - 18:39)
Consequences, I felt like were a much better alternative for her learning than taking on my disappointment or something like that. I felt a lot of shame as a kid around my mother and father, like felt like I disappointed them a lot. And I think with my mother, you know, consequences look like a lot of things, but always included in that, or my biological mother always included that would be like, I can't believe you did this, right?
And then I just, you know, add that to the other stack and just continue moving around with this kind of like, I've disappointed everyone all the time kind of feeling. I didn't want her to have that. So whenever there was like, whenever that kind of came into play, I would often use a little bit of levity.
Like I would fake yell, I'd be like, I can't believe you did this to us, you know? And then like over dramatize things until she laughed, but kind of got, you know, I did a lot of fake yelling when she was young. I still do it today.
And it's got a certain voice to it. And there's like, you know, it usually elicits a funny response from her, but I would just get over the top, like, hi, Maya, you know, and there's always a tone I use. I'll be like, Maya, you know, like I'll say that out loud and that's how it will start.
And then I can't believe you or yeah. Using your head for more than a hat rack, you know, I pull out these limericks from like grandpa and dad and like watch her roll her eyes. But anytime it was like, you know, I want her to think about something.
And, you know, there is potentially some like, yeah, if I want her to think about it, about how she's affecting other people and the repercussions of her actions on others, I do my best to try and stay away from shame in a real way. And I often address it through like levity in such a way that she's like, okay, this is a shaming moment, but it's hilarious. And, you know, there's something in there for me, but like, she doesn't need to take it on.
And I think, I don't think she walks around with much shame at all, which is pretty wonderful compared to a lot of kids I see, including myself growing up. Exactly, exactly.
[Tony Cooper] (18:39 - 19:00)
I never thought about it that way, that like you use consequences instead of the influence or leverage of shame. And so like, how would you get to a consequence? Again, how did you deliver them?
And then like, what was the, what did you feel like the impact was of her working through a consequence?
[Adam Hibble] (19:02 - 20:19)
Yeah, taking emotion out of it, I think is the key part. Like just talking in vanilla, like there's no anger here, there's no charge. So that would be part of the process.
Like if I had charge or Susette had charge, we'd try and let it go, you know, try and release that before we had the conversation with her and then the consequences might look like, you know, say you're late for your curfew. She was supposed to be home at 10 and she got home at 11. Like it's, you know, and then I would say, okay, so there's, we need to adjust this somehow for a learning moment.
And so there's a consequence and the two or three we've come up with are, you lose the car for three days, you know, you don't drive the car for three days, or you know, you're, you know, or would you rather, you know, lose the weekend entirely, you know, with friends or, you know, give her two or three options and say like all three of these are kind of in line with understand, you know, they're related to their original issue, right? And having a menu was often better for her because she could choose.
[Tony Cooper] (20:19 - 20:24)
You would then choose. Like she was somehow like she had some control over it.
[Adam Hibble] (20:25 - 20:25)
Yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (20:27 - 20:47)
Yeah. That's fucking awesome. And then, so three days later, the consequences lifted.
Is there like, was there like a check-in at the end or was there a, you know, like setting new agreements or new levels of commitment or how did they end other than like here are the keys back?
[Adam Hibble] (20:47 - 22:44)
I think it depends on, it depended on, it still depends on how big the kind of break was, you know, the issue was to begin with. Like, you know, when she was 14, right after her 14th birthday, she was hanging around with kids that were, you know, good kids, but not good influences for her. Then they didn't have great, you know, they didn't have great parenting support at home.
So they were, you know, at 14, they're all out drinking and vaping and doing smoking weed and whatever they could, right? And they were good kids and they were, you know, but, you know, shortly after her 14th birthday, she gets caught drinking a couple times. I mean, that's pretty early for drinking alcohol.
At least that was my opinion. And she got caught in a few lies around it. And so that was a more kind of protracted experience.
Like, okay, pick your consequences. And then after we kind of had like get, you know, a follow-up meeting and like, how do you feel about it now? And do you feel like clear about, you know, how you want to do this going forward?
And have you set up any different goals for yourself or context that would keep you out of the situation? And, you know, so we'd have those, and then there might be, you know, there might be stuff still left to do after that. But, you know, for smaller ones, like you're late an hour, you know, I think the only thing that would be on the end of those is like, congrats, nice work, and enjoy the rest of your, you know, enjoy your life.
Free, you know, that kind of thing. So she would feel like, oh, she actually got past it. She did the work.
Whether she felt like she got anything out of it or not is, you know, less relevant. But, you know, that there's some closure to it was, that's valuable. It's a good question.
[Tony Cooper] (22:45 - 23:02)
I was thinking about it in terms of, so when she's 14, you catch her drinking. I'm assuming you guys had already established that drinking was not acceptable for her. Like she knew she broke some agreement with you.
[Adam Hibble] (23:03 - 24:00)
Well, we have always, or at least I have always talked with her like she's older than she is. So even at like seven years old, she'll, you know, she'll come home from, you know, some, you know, like fifth grade or sixth grade presentation like the dangers of drinking and alcohol and drugs video or whatever comes up. And, you know, we talked to her about it, you know, afterwards, but I didn't put out any particular rules.
It just said, you know, that this is a dangerous thing when you're young and there are a lot of questions for it. And it's not all horrible. And there are some benefits to, you know, alcohol and some benefits to drugs.
And we'll talk about those as we go and as you have questions. And, but she knew at least like, you know, we don't expect you to be out drinking at 14 years old. She knew enough about that to be lying and trying to hide it.
[Tony Cooper] (24:00 - 24:04)
Yeah. Yeah. For the record, when did you start drinking?
[Adam Hibble] (24:04 - 24:57)
That was kind of when we start, when we started setting up, like, and it was appropriate for that age. Maybe we could have done it at 13, but like, you know, here are the rules for you as 13. And we'll talk about this at your 14th birthday.
And we'll, you know, this is the kind of help we expect you to help out around the family. And, you know, these are the three or four things that we always have a, leash isn't the right word, but we always give a very long leash and give her the benefit of doubt and always treat her like she's two or three years older than she is. So she's got a lot of wiggle room.
But that was the point where we started picking out like three or four things like, okay, these three or four things are important. Please don't break these. And we can, and we can rediscuss like at your next birthday and adjust these accordingly.
And are you cool with that?
[Tony Cooper] (24:58 - 25:00)
Yeah. Yeah. When did you start drinking?
[Adam Hibble] (25:04 - 25:05)
When did I start drinking?
[Tony Cooper] (25:05 - 25:05)
Yeah.
[Adam Hibble] (25:05 - 25:16)
How old were you? I smoked weed first. Six, yeah, probably 16.
Yeah, 16.
[Tony Cooper] (25:16 - 25:16)
Yeah.
[Adam Hibble] (25:17 - 25:27)
And there were people that I hung out with that were smoking weed at 14, but I didn't. And there were people I hung out with that were drinking at 14, but I didn't.
[Tony Cooper] (25:27 - 25:27)
Okay.
[Adam Hibble] (25:28 - 25:29)
Yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (25:30 - 25:30)
Nice.
[Adam Hibble] (25:31 - 25:41)
But now at 16 and a half, you know, she's allowed, she's got, she's allowed to drink. You know, she can have one or two drinks away from us as long as she's not driving.
[Tony Cooper] (25:42 - 25:42)
Right.
[Adam Hibble] (25:42 - 25:50)
That's what I mean by she's got a longer leash, but there are very clear, like, you know, if you do this, we got a problem.
[Tony Cooper] (25:51 - 26:42)
Got it. Yeah, I think that's a really important part of it that I'm getting from this conversation is that they know that the kid in advance knows what the restriction is or what the limit is or what the agreement is. And then if they break that agreement, there's the part of it that's like, all right, you broke a law, you broke an agreement, whatever.
But there's like an impact of having done that. Like, I don't know whether it's like, you've eroded trust between us. Like, I want to be able to trust you and you not following through with what you said you do is eroding trust.
Or is there, like, was there any sort of explanation to her about like, why this is even important? Why there's even a rule? Why you're gonna have a consequence?
Like, was that part of it?
[Adam Hibble] (26:43 - 27:19)
Sure, we spend time talking about like, why this rule is there, the benefit, et cetera. I think maybe less with Suzette, but definitely for me, I've tried to keep as much emotion out of it. Like that, I don't trust you anymore.
But we would say things like, this will allow you to build, picking one of these consequences and following it through is gonna allow you to build, will allow you to build trust and higher levels of accountability and responsibility going forward.
[Tony Cooper] (27:20 - 27:48)
Yeah. Great. So back to earlier, we were talking about how you would put yourself in a position where it was, you're like, I'm okay not being liked right now because my job is to make sure you're successful.
So what were some of the core principles that you've really sought to instill in her that would be leading her to the level of success that you envisioned for her?
[Adam Hibble] (27:50 - 28:14)
Oh, we started with, let's see if I can find this. I should have this kind of memorized, but kind of we started with an intention for her when she was young. Here it is.
Our desire is that you have confidence, compassion and a deep awareness that you can create whatever you desire in life. So we started sharing that with her when she was young and it's different points about her.
[Tony Cooper] (28:14 - 28:15)
Just saying that to her.
[Adam Hibble] (28:15 - 28:17)
Yeah, this is our original vision for you.
[Tony Cooper] (28:18 - 28:21)
Oh, wow. Can you say it again?
[Adam Hibble] (28:22 - 29:54)
Our desire is that you have confidence, compassion and a deep awareness that you can create whatever you desire in life. Okay. That's kind of like the upfront statement.
What we want you to have, what we wish for you is confidence, compassion, which compassion is a hard one for a 16 year old, 14 to 16, it's like they don't have their attention on that. So to have her to start thinking about that early, like how she treats her friends, et cetera, and how she expects to be treated compassionately. And then the last part, just that you develop a deep awareness that you can generate whatever you want.
You are, you do have that ability. And it might take some time, but that is definitely within you. And you foster that from the beginning.
And she said, so she would say like, I wanna get this trike or something like that. We've already bought the Christmas presents already. We're like, okay, you wanna get this trike?
Let's talk about steps, how to make your desire a reality. Like, you wanna do that? Great.
And then, you know, baby steps. What could you do around the house? What kind of chores do you like to help out with?
And how long will it take to make that money? And then where should we get it? What's the best price?
Like walk through those things with her to make something she wants or desires a reality, whether it's a material thing or non-material.
[Tony Cooper] (29:54 - 29:57)
Yeah, or a relationship or yeah, anything. That's awesome.
[Adam Hibble] (29:58 - 30:02)
Yeah, does that kind of answer it?
[Tony Cooper] (30:02 - 30:50)
What I'm hearing is you're like, you and Suzette got clear really early on the kind of person you wanted Maya to grow into as an adult. I think it was Louis CK said like, it's not gonna be funny, but he was like, I mean, it was part of a joke, but he goes, it dawned on him, he's like, I'm not raising children. I'm raising adults.
And I heard him say that and I was like, right, that's true. The majority of the time you're gonna be spending with your kid is as an adult. So I love the attention on who are they gonna be as adults?
Like the kid journey is awesome and everything like that, but it's gonna wind up in an eventuality called an adult. And I'm like, I just wanna raise kids I wanna hang out with that I wanna spend time with.
[Adam Hibble] (30:51 - 30:51)
Yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (30:51 - 30:52)
Yeah, enjoy.
[Adam Hibble] (30:52 - 30:54)
Enjoy what you enjoy. Yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (30:54 - 30:55)
Exactly.
[Adam Hibble] (30:56 - 31:11)
Both for them that experience, right? With other people that other people feel that way for about them, but more importantly, that they feel internally how they feel about themselves. Like I do have the confidence to talk to who I want if I want.
Yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (31:12 - 31:40)
That's great. Now, you and Suzette have very different personalities from each other. And Maya seems to kind of have her own.
And one of the things that I always thought about as I was raising kids was like the difference between nature and nurture. Like how much do they just come into the world the way they are? And how much are we generally influencing who they become?
What is your take on that?
[Adam Hibble] (31:41 - 33:32)
Yeah, I'd say the way most people talk about it is pretty right on like 80 to 90% is nature and 10 to 20% is nurture. But it's like nurture goes a long way. Nurture is, I like to think about like directing a force.
Right? That's what nurture is about. Like if you broke a dam, you can't stop the water, right?
From going wherever it wants to go. But if you pay attention and you can kind of direct, help direct that water in the ways that it's gonna be the best uses of it. Nurture goes a long way.
They are totally two different realms and you could have the twins with the exact same nature and they're gonna turn out so different. Right. Because maybe they had separate parents.
Like you put a twin over here and you put an identical twin over here. Their nature should, if they're identical, they should be pretty much spot on identical on most issues, experiences, et cetera. But then you add the nurture part into that, two different totally sets of parents.
Those kids are not gonna be anywhere near the same. We are gonna have similar, they're gonna have a lot of similarities, but they're also gonna have completely different personalities and characters and that's all the nurture part. So even though people say it's 10 to 15% or whatever it is, they are two totally different realms and that 10 to 15%, you can direct a lot of, let's just call them a force.
Children are a force. You can direct them a lot with a small amount of love and care or guidance.
[Tony Cooper] (33:32 - 34:10)
That's a great way of saying it, Adam. Like they are, they're already a force. That's their nature.
They are a force. And the nurture part is directing that force. I like that.
I mean, there's also like people sometimes use the nurture part to fuck up their kids. Like there's definitely, you can direct them in a really negative way, but that's, but the opposite of that, like you really being there for Maya, like what are some memories you have or times where you just felt like, I was really there for that kid. I'm really proud of how I showed up.
[Adam Hibble] (34:10 - 38:28)
I think one of the big recent ones is when she was 15, you know, as a freshman, she was, she was probably like a B student. She'd get an A and she'd get a C and the rest would be Bs. We started talking about like college.
She got really excited about college because she's watching all these college kids on her teen programs. And so we started chatting about that. And obviously the question about like grades and how important are grades and how do they play a role in colleges and just general, you know, screenings, like you're gonna be screened your whole life for a number of things.
And things like grades are a screening criteria. You know, they may not mean anything. They may just be part of the game, but knowing how to play that game is important.
And so she was very curious about like, you know, okay, so she was feeling a little like, I'm doing my best and I'm getting Bs. And so we started having all kinds of, again, short conversations. That's my key is a thousand short conversations, no long ones, but a lot of short conversations that are involved, like progressively involved talking about like, how could we get better grades?
And, you know, we started talking about like, let's get a tutor. Let's find a really fun tutor who could explain things to you. So when you're in class, you're already picking it up already.
And walking through a bunch of different ideas like that, some that worked for her, some that didn't work for her, some like technology tools or, and then like talking about the benefits of, you know, what if you were to get straight A's, like what that would look like, how good you would feel about it, like how much power or internal power that would give you, you know, and like having her start thinking about like the tactical kind of sensation of being a success in something you didn't think you were gonna be able to do better on.
So a lot of short conversations around that. And then also like little incentives, like, you know, and if you get all, you know, if you get more, it started off with like, if you get more A's than you get B's, then, you know, we'll put 200 bucks in your next, you know, your next account for shopping, for clothes. She loves clothes and that.
So like little incentives along the way. And then she started just, you know, taking little pieces and, you know, some coaching, some just like paying more attention because she knows she's gonna get some good money out of it, that kind of thing, until she gets to the place where like, all of a sudden she got more A's than B's. And, you know, it's a big success for her.
And then she got almost, she got all A's and one B. And then she's starting to like re-figure like, how come I couldn't get that, you know, the last A? What do I need to do to get that last?
Like, how do I, and then like, how to work with teachers? Like, are you going in at lunch? She's like, what's the point of that?
I'm not learning anything more. They don't seem to be able to teach me even when I go in extra. We talk about like, it's not, there's other aspects to this game.
This game is all about relationships and that the teacher knows that you're interested. And therefore they start giving you the benefit of the doubt and she started going into like, you know, the noon work classes or to see her teachers and all of a sudden she's, you know, getting straight A's and now she feels like she's done it herself. You know, it's all her impetus, which is really in the long run is key.
You know, I didn't want her feeling like we kind of pushed her into it. We wanted, I wanted her feeling like she was interested and she generated it all on her own. And previously she was not feeling like she could do any better than she was doing.
Like, to have her have her win. And watching her have her own win is a lot more, feels a lot better than like, you know, we had a win because she did something we wanted her to.
[Tony Cooper] (38:29 - 39:18)
Yeah, I mean, you all win. That's the beautiful part about that. And I mean, that's such a transformation, like her mindset shift from, I'm doing the best I can.
This is all there is to like pushing herself to just asking, how can I get better? How can I turn that last B into an A? Even though it was like, it is the best I was able to do with however I approached it.
And what's a better way? What can I get it? Cause she now had a goal.
And like the idea that she walks away going like, once she sets her mind to something, she can figure out whatever's in the way and she can overcome it. That's fricking awesome. I love it.
All right, how about the opposite of that? Like a moment where you kind of like have a regret or feel shame about how you showed up as a dad?
[Adam Hibble] (39:20 - 42:11)
Because I really, I was raised with, it wasn't appropriate to be overly emotional, especially with my biological mother. That I still had some of that inside me, like don't be a drama queen or, you know, this kind of thing. And when you have a young child, especially, you know, a more feminine child, you know, Maya would have emotions.
And I early, she didn't throw fits, which was awesome. At the age when all kids are thrown fits, you know, like two to four, when they're like, you can hear them screaming or whining to try and get what they want. Like she didn't do that.
And when she did cry or be upset, I would often ask her like, and I even counted out on my fingers, I'd be like, are you really physically hurt? No. Are you really sad or upset or angry about something that you're aware of?
No. Okay, and then there was a, you know, there was a third one. So there's the physical anger.
What was the other? Anyway, I'd ask her these three things. And if the response was no to all of those.
Yeah. Oh, it was, are you physically hurt? Are you really scared?
Or are you having a deep emotion that's attached to something, right? And a lot of times at that age, and even sometimes as adults, like we're having emotions and we have no distinction about where it's coming from. I don't know where this is coming from.
And I would ask her those three things and like count them out in my hand. If they were all no, then I would be like, well, so why are you crying? I think the intention was for her, my intention was for her to be like authentic with her feelings.
But at that age, I don't think it was valuable. I think it actually shut her down a little bit because she's feeling something. But in some way, I'm letting her know, like you only have permission, in some way I think she might've took it, like you only have permission to feel these things if it's these three categories.
And you can't just be with your emotion or express your emotion if you don't have any distinction around it. Like, I don't think that that was fair. And I think to this day, I've had to like try and make up for that.
Like, you know, this is okay. This is totally fine. But I think that did kind of that, that certainly affected her growing up.
[Tony Cooper] (42:12 - 42:12)
Yeah.
[Adam Hibble] (42:13 - 42:20)
That may be one of the reasons my kid goes to therapy. This is what my dad did, you know.
[Tony Cooper] (42:21 - 44:27)
I have a friend who says he has a foolproof test to see if you should be in therapy. And it goes like this. Do you have parents?
That's it. That's it. If you have parents, you should definitely be in therapy.
I totally relate to that. I mean, and definitely, you know, Tammy got, when the kids were really little, I was very much, you know, what you're talking about, like, you know, I was just really raised that like emotions are not okay. You're not supposed to have, you're not supposed to be at least, especially the out of control-ish ones.
And so I know, I like came at it like my dad would, like shut the shit down now. And Tammy got connected with an organization in the Bay Area called Hand-in-Hand Parenting. And one of their whole missions was just like, let them have whatever fucking emotion comes up and don't try to make sense of it.
Just let them know that you can be with them when they're having the emotion. All like, oh, fuck, never crossed my mind. And it was huge.
And they used to like, have like, you like create time, like fucking cry time or whatever it was. I forgot there was a name of it, but like, just do what the fuck you want. Like, and I will be here with you and like, I will continue to love you and support you.
It doesn't change a thing. And it's just a way of conveying that like, it's like, we don't get to control our emotions. Like, especially a kid doesn't.
And so I totally relate to that part of it. Um, so a couple more thoughts here. So yeah, I hear a lot that like, kids are mirrors.
Like we, you know, they reflect back to us in ways that like nothing else does. Like how has being a dad, how has like, how do you think Maya has been a mirror for you? Like, what have you learned about yourself through?
Or maybe even just like, what, you know, how have you changed being a dad? Like how has it changed you?
[Adam Hibble] (44:29 - 46:31)
I think I'm more, I'm definitely more patient. I am definitely more willing to put myself in other people's shoes without like, immediately judging. I, that's such a broad question.
How has parenting changed me? Cause basically all my priorities, you know, all the values and priorities that I wanted in my life got like reduced to like, okay, these are the priorities, right? As opposed to all the things that I wanted to do or accomplish or experience.
Like, yeah, I think I'm a lot more grateful on a daily basis by getting to watch her going through life in such a way and watching her make her own decisions. Yeah, I'm more grateful. I'm more, I think just empathetic.
Like I get to, you know, I get to kind of live a bit of my life through her life, watching her, you know, grok things that I didn't understand or have any tools to work with at that age, when I was that age. So it's a really, it's a pleasing experience. And there's a certain amount of like setting things right.
Like having the feeling of like, you know, when my mom left, having the feeling of like, I'm uncared for, I really had to learn how to quiet that inner judge, you know, of being uncared for or unwanted and really heal that myself so that I could pass that on to Maya. Cause it's like, you're trying to instill something in your young adult, but you don't believe it yourself. It just, you know, it just doesn't work.
[Tony Cooper] (46:32 - 47:39)
I think that's the biggest part about what, what I'm really looking to get out of this project is that I, that realization that all we ever do is mostly pass on generational trauma. And that like one of the greatest gifts we can give the world, not just our kid, is just ending certain cycles of that generational trauma and just not passing it on. But to your point, you have to do the work.
Like you have to stop it rather than going, I'll just stop it in my kid. Like it doesn't stop like that. It gets passed on and then they're now the inheritors of it.
You're trying to get them to stop it. You're like, you missed your opportunity. Like it's yours to fix, not theirs.
Yeah, true. What do you hope that Maya remembers most about you as a dad? Like, let's say I'm interviewing her in 30 years about on this project.
And I'm like, tell me about your dad. What does she remember about you? What would you say?
What do you want her? What do you want her to remember about you?
[Adam Hibble] (47:39 - 48:06)
I think she would say, what I would like her to say is that I loved her more than anything. And that was obvious. That I was willing to do the hard things for her benefit.
That I was a bit crazy. I'm fun, that it was fun and definitely a bit crazy. And that she always felt supported.
[Tony Cooper] (48:08 - 48:27)
So one of the things I really want this to be is something that benefits dads before they become dads. So what piece of advice would you give to someone who's becoming a first time dad? Like, what would you want it to have known?
[Adam Hibble] (48:28 - 49:48)
It's a learn as you go. You don't need to know everything. It's a learn as you go.
That's the first one. Two, take care of yourself so that you can take care of them better. Kind of in the context that we were talking about, especially with prior traumas, et cetera.
You know, enjoy the process. Keep it fun. Keep it fun and connected.
I often think about, I don't know how to state this kind of in a preparation for new dads, but I often used to think, or still think about, like, if I was at that age experiencing this, what would I have wanted? Like, what would have really worked for me? As opposed to what I got, like, what would I, knowing what I know now, what would I give myself as a young person in this situation?
And then find out if that's the same thing that's appropriate for your actual child. Like, it may not be, but what else? And then the last thing, you know, that I got from our family therapist way back was 1,000 conversations are way better than a few long ones.
Short conversations, yeah, because they really dig that. They're only gonna pick up three or four words anyway, so make sure it's short and they get the good stuff, yeah.
[Tony Cooper] (49:50 - 49:56)
Adam, thank you so much. This was amazing. Appreciate it so much.
[Adam Hibble] (49:57 - 50:00)
I appreciated the process. Thank you.
[Tony Cooper] (50:00 - 50:06)
All right, well, keep it going. All right. Thanks, Tony.
Love you, brother. Talk to you later.
[Adam Hibble] (50:07 - 50:08)
Bye. Cheers.
[Tony Cooper] (50:09 - 50:42)
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Dad Manual podcast. If you liked it, please leave us a rating or subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you really liked it, please share it with a dad you love.
I'm looking to grow a community of fathers who are ready to change the world, and I need your help to do that. And if you've got questions or topics you want me to explore, email them to me at thedadmanual at gmail.com. I would love to answer your questions on our next episode.
Until next time, I'm Tony Cooper, and this is the Dad Manual podcast.