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"Upstream" is a podcast where lively conversation meets deep faith. Each episode, we dive into the currents of today's society, exploring important topics through a Christian lens. Whether we're discussing family values, ethical dilemmas, or personal growth, our goal is to provide insights that resonate with real life while rooted in our faith. So, grab a cup of coffee and join us as we navigate these waters, always striving to move upward and onward in our spiritual journeys. Together, let's discover how faith shapes our lives in the modern world. Tune in to "Upstream" for a fresh perspective on the things that matter most!
Hi, welcome to Upstream.
I'm Zach Patterson.
Hi.
You're ready.
I was ready.
I was just excited that Sherry's back in
the studio with us.
Welcome home, Sherry.
We love you so much.
Great to be here.
And our body loves you.
They love Upstream.
They love hearing from you.
I'm just so thankful that you're here.
I'm so grateful our body loves you the
way that they do.
You are kind.
I'm glad to be here.
We've gotten a lot of questions.
Hey, when's Upstream coming back?
That lady, is she going to be there?
That lady, Sherry.
And I think that's important.
I want to take a moment.
Sherry, there's not a lot of LA County
people that know you, except for maybe a
few families who went to the school.
But I think it's important that people know
that you started an incredible Christian school in
Orange County, in South Orange County.
And how long ago did you start the
school?
42 years ago.
42 years ago.
And now the school...
I didn't...
No.
Yeah.
No.
You're not that far behind.
But it is a K-8 school now.
Preschool through 8th.
All right.
Preschool through 8th.
And how many students does it boast?
Just short of 600, I think, right now.
Yeah.
That is incredible.
I know my son went to your school.
Two of my boys, quite a little bit.
Just, I'm so thankful for your investment.
And just so that our body knows, I
was challenged to find a pastor in our
area that could minister to me, and outside
of my bubble, outside of my box.
And the Lord really put you on my
heart.
You have so many wonderful...
I know you're not a pastor of a
church per se, but you have so many
wonderful pastoral gifts.
And I'm just so grateful for our years
of connection and relationship, and your investment into
me and my family.
We're just thankful to have you a part
of us now here, even at Calvary Life.
So I just...
Everyone keeps asking me, who is Sherry Worrell?
Who's Sherry Worrell?
Well, because they don't get the opportunity and
the privilege of knowing you personally, I just
think it's important that they know who you
are to me and Pastor Zach as well.
You are so sweet, but that does not
mean I will be...
I had a feeling we were already going
to be going there.
Perfect.
Perfect.
I love that.
Thank you, God.
Yeah.
Well, awesome.
Hey, we've had a lot of crazy things
going on in the world.
I know we're going to talk about that
a little bit today.
Some of the war, the outbreak, the strike
of the U.S. on Iran.
But before we jump into it, if we
can just launch in prayer, that'd be awesome.
God, thank you for being on the throne.
God, thank you that no matter what happens
around us, we can be reminded of who's
within us, the God that we serve.
Lord, you have all this in control.
And though there are things we may not
understand, and things we're trying to figure out
and understand, how does this align with Scripture?
Is this a fulfillment of prophecy?
What exactly is going on?
Lord, would you help us to fix our
eyes on you?
Help us to honor you in the way
that we carry our conversations, the way that
we represent you.
And for this time, God, would you be
glorified?
Would you use this even for the building
up of your church?
God, would you edify and equip for the
work of the ministry, I pray in Jesus'
name.
Amen.
Zach, I always listen when you pray because
I do believe that oftentimes...
You pray for me every service, every time
I speak.
I do.
And I always listen to every prayer that
you say.
And I was listening again.
It's important that people realize with all of
the seemingly out-of-controllness going on in
the world today that God is in control.
And I think the chaos of the cross
speaks to this.
I mean, everyone felt defeated.
They were like, what in the world's going
on?
But Jesus rose again.
You know, God was in control, though it
didn't seem that he was.
And I just think it's so important that
we recognize that God is in control as
a foundation of this conversation.
I'm sure, I don't know if you would
add anything to that.
I just would agree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, with the out-of-control,
you know, I think that obviously there's a
mixed perspective and a lot of opinion on
what's happened as of late.
So, June 21st, 22nd, the U.S. strikes
Iran.
And some people are, yes, that's awesome.
Some people are, hey, we need to stay
out of it.
We need to mind our own business.
Obviously, the point of our conversation today is
to look at it from a biblical world
view to say, hey, how does a believer,
someone who follows Jesus, how do we see
this?
How do we represent him?
So, I mean, maybe just first, obviously, there's
a lot of conversation in churches because it's
connected to Israel.
Well, I think the other question too is,
is this a sign of the end times?
Yes, for sure.
I think that's something as well.
I know, Sherry, you and I agree on
all of that.
We could talk about, but I think it's
important to recognize that Jesus made it very
clear that there will be wars and rumors
of war.
Now, whether you're for or against or we
should have or we shouldn't have, the Lord
makes it very clear these things are going
to happen.
Right.
And they've been happening for some time.
So, I think that's important to recognize that
Jesus let us know these things are going
to take part in our world, which is
in this world system, which is controlled by
the enemy.
Yeah.
So, maybe can we just start there?
Because like you said, that's a passage that
I think is familiar for people.
And so, it spurs that question.
Are we in the end times?
What does this mean?
Should we be ready for Jesus coming?
Sherry, are we in the end times?
Yes, yes.
And it may last a very long time
before he returns.
I mean, what is it?
Mark 13 and Matthew 25 take that exact
position.
When you hear of this and this and
this, be aware, being paying attention.
It's nigh, but it ain't here now.
That was 2,000 years ago.
We're still having this conversation.
And on his timetable, he'll bring it to
fruition, not on your timetable or mine.
I think that the real issue about this
latest round of skirmishes, I don't know if
I should even call it skirmishes, the difficulties
in Israel, especially as it relates to Iran,
it begs the question, should we be supportive
of Israel simply because Genesis 12 talks about
blessing those and cursing those in that very
familiar passage?
The problem there, in my opinion, is that
we are equating a biblical position, a biblical
understanding of who Israel is, the theological position
of persons of Israel versus a geopolitical position
of recognizing Israel as a state.
I need to highlight those two words, a
geopolitical Israel and a theological Israel.
Could you unpack that just for a minute,
Sherry?
Because I think those are two very important
terms.
The theological Israel would be that which the
Lord set up by entering into a covenant
relationship with Abraham and saying, you know, through
you, I'm going to build a nation.
I'm going to build a people group.
And I'm going to be in a covenant
with this people group.
I'm going to do these things.
I'm going to accomplish these things through this
relationship that I have with these specific people.
The geopolitical position is a government.
And can I add to your first definition,
ruled by God.
Yes.
A covenant and a law that was a
theocracy ruled by God.
Absolutely.
Okay, good.
He was in control.
He was setting the parameters.
He was setting the rules.
Speaking through his prophets, picking judges, which are
leaders, so forth and so on.
Setting up boundaries, giving them responsibilities within those
boundaries, et cetera.
The geopolitical definition is a government, a current,
in this case, government that exists as, you
know, other governments do in the world to
promote the blessing of their own people.
And their people may or may not be
people of faith.
And in the case of Israel, there are
some who are, and a bunch who are
not.
You know, and let's go back to an
understanding.
The theological Israel, or excuse me, the theocratic
Israel lasted until the kings.
And if you remember, picking a king was
a rebellion against God's authority.
It wasn't God's plan to begin with.
And we're studying the book of Second Chronicles.
And God says something to Rehoboam that I
think is so important in regards to the
way he thinks.
He gives him over to Shishak, the Egyptian
pharaoh, king.
And he says, you know what?
I'm going to give you over to Egypt
and you see if they're better than me.
Like, you go ahead.
Since you want Egypt so bad, you go
ahead and see if they're better than me.
And I think what we're experiencing with this
geopolitical, this governance, it was God's way of
saying, okay, you don't want to be ruled
by me.
I'm going to give you to man.
Now, let me tell you all the things
the king's going to do.
He's going to tax you.
He's going to take your sons.
He's going to do this.
But you go ahead, see how it is.
We're still there.
We're still God allowing Israel to be ruled
by man.
And I want to, that's why I'm making
you highlight, not making, but asking you to
highlight the difference between that theocratic, because I
think that has great impact of the way
that we look at what's going on.
So go ahead, continue for us.
Well, what happens is people will quote this
verse.
Let me get it right.
He says in Genesis 12, I will bless
you and do a great nation.
I'll bless you, make your name great, and
you'll be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you.
Whoever curses you, I will curse.
And all the peoples on earth will be
blessed through you.
And so immediately someone says, we cannot oppose
what Israel has done, whether it's in regard
to Iran or in regard to Gaza for
that matter.
We can't oppose that, what the current government
has done, the decisions that were made, especially
as it relates to war.
We can't oppose that because see, otherwise we're
going to be in a position of not
receiving God's blessing.
Sorry, I want to make sure that everyone
heard what you said.
You're saying almost like because of that scripture,
we feel we can't oppose anything that Israel
does because they're God's chosen people.
Yeah, the criticism is don't do that because
there's the verse.
If you want to be blessed, you can't
be critical.
And I'm making a distinction between the spiritualness
of Israel as described here and on through
the Old Testament and the geopolitical government and
saying, wait a minute, we can be critical
of what the current government is doing without
violating the principles that are outlined for us
here.
Yeah, I think that's part of even their
own system.
The current government is very critical of things
that are, there are so many different sides
to how to deal with this particular issue.
And I think that's a very important point.
When we are praying for Israel, we're not
praying from the perspective now that everything they
do is right.
And I'm not saying things that they've done
is wrong.
And I'll go back all the way to
October 7th.
If my family was kidnapped, I'd do everything
and anything to get my family back.
So you can spin that one way or
the other.
But sorry, when the Hamas go into an
area and they take people from your family
members, of course, you're going to go and
try to get them back at all costs.
But that doesn't mean that everything that Israel's
done is right.
And I think that's important to pull out.
Yeah.
So, I mean, if I can just track
with you.
So obviously you're referring back, this has been
something that's been building.
It's gotten heightened.
This has been building since Ishmael and Isaac.
Yeah, but especially recently with some of the
activity and some of the attack and some
of the, and in the church, there is
an understanding from some people that go, well,
you need to agree with.
What I'm hearing you guys say is, no,
you don't have to agree with.
Everything that Israel does.
Right.
Yes.
And just like I don't agree with everything
the United States of America does.
One of the arguments that says you should
or must agree is the idea that there's
a covenantal relationship between Israel and the Lord.
And there is.
The covenant.
A forever covenant.
That's important.
God uses the word forever.
Romans chapter 11.
It's not revocable.
There is absolutely a future for Israel.
You and I would completely agree with that.
Absolutely.
But the idea that because there's a covenant,
then everything that they do is a thumbs
up.
No.
God doesn't even see that.
No.
Some of the covenants have nothing to do
with Israel.
When in Genesis 15, when he walks through
the various killed animals and puts Abraham to
sleep indicating, wait a minute, this whole covenant
is on me.
It's not there's not a requirement back and
forth.
But if you fast forward to in Chronicles,
if my people, which are called by my
name, will humble themselves and seek my face,
then I will.
So sometimes it is conditional.
Israel doesn't get a pass to do anything
it wants on the basis of the covenant
that God has made with them.
Sometimes it's there on God's predicated on him
and his character.
And other times it's predicated on choices that
they make.
Yeah, I think it's important, Sherry, right now,
prophetically speaking, the Bible speaks about a gathering
in unbelief and a gathering in belief.
And what we're experiencing right now with the
peace and the prosperity of Israel is what
some theologians call the gathering in unbelief.
This is Israel coming together, being formed as
a nation.
It's the geopolitical Israel that you're talking about.
And God is blessing the nation.
There is peace.
I'm sorry, there is prosperity.
There people are building homes without walls.
We see these things happening in Israel right
now.
In fact, they say that the national bird
of Israel is the crane, the crane that
is building all the skyscrapers in every city.
You see these cranes going up and they
look like these big crane birds, right?
So Israel is growing and developing.
This is spoke about in Scripture.
It's the gathering in unbelief.
Then there is the Zechariah, a spirit of
supplication that's poured out on Israel when Christ's
return that then there'll be a gathering in
belief.
And this is a revival amongst Israel.
Now, this doesn't mean that every Israeli gets
saved.
This means that there will be a revival
amongst Israelis and that those who believe in
the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.
Now, he is going to return and we
can go into a whole end times moment.
But what I wanted to talk about is
this gathering in unbelief is a geopolitical gathering.
And just like God pointed out mistakes that
Israel made as they were developing as a
nation, we as Christians can be critical of
things that Israel does that is not right
or is wrong.
So I think that's important.
Now, I don't want to be so heavy
on Israel.
Because we do have a nation, Iran, that
as a nation.
Now, this is important to differentiate between people.
I do a lot of ministry in Iran
and the Iranian people are some of the
most fascinating, wonderful people in the world.
They will tell you it's not us.
It's our government and they reject.
Now, I'm not giving a pass to Iran
at all.
I'm just simply saying that we've got to
be careful that we don't as the world
is called the axis of evil.
All of these terms that the people aren't,
it's the government.
And so I don't want us to be
so pro-Israel, we're anti-Iranian.
Or so anti-Israel that we somehow miss
the injunction to pray for Israel, which is
a specific injunction in the scripture.
Yeah, sorry, I'm going to have to cut
you guys.
So we're going to continue our conversation.
Obviously, we have a lot to talk about.
Sorry, but before you do, I just want
it for the next section.
We need to talk about pray for the
peace of Jerusalem.
And what does that mean?
And what are we praying for?
Sorry.
Great.
No, great.
So join us on our next episode.
We'll continue the conversation.
God bless you guys.