Implementation Series, Part 3: What Happens to Family Engagement When Instructional Practice Changes? with Elisabeth O'Bryon and Rayna Flye

Today we're sharing part three of the implementation series from Family Engagement Lab. Elisabeth O'Bryon of Family Engagement Lab and Rayna Flye of Illustrative Mathematics join us to discuss:

• When families say "this isn't how I learned math," what are they really reacting to?
  
  
• What teachers understand about today's math instruction that families never get to see
  
  
• Why the disconnect often starts with the day-one communication that goes home
  
  
• The difference between informing families about instruction and helping them participate in it
  
  
• What family math nights and bite-sized, curriculum-aligned communication actually change
  
  
• Who owns this work — teachers, school leaders, or curriculum providers?
  
  
• The risk a district takes when it adopts a strong curriculum but doesn't bring families along
  
  

Listen to Implementation Series, Part 1: The Missing Instructional Layer: https://etss.bepodcast.network/episodes/implementation-series-part-1-the-missing-instructional-layer-with-vidya-sundaram-and-elisabeth-obryon

Listen to Implementation Series, Part 2: Why Good Ideas Fail Quietly in Schools: https://etss.bepodcast.network/episodes/implementation-series-part-2-why-good-ideas-fail-quietly-in-schools-with-vidya-sundaram-and-elisabeth-obryon

Learn more about Family Engagement Lab: https://www.familyengagementlab.org

Learn more about Illustrative Mathematics: https://www.illustrativemathematics.org

About the guests

Elisabeth O'Bryon is co-founder and Chief Impact Officer of Family Engagement Lab. Elisabeth was previously the Director of Research and Evaluation at GreatSchools where she worked to design and implement evaluation projects, with a particular focus on rapid-cycle research approaches. Before GreatSchools, Elisabeth was a Postdoctoral Research Associate at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence where she contributed to the development and evaluation of school-based social and emotional learning programming for children, teachers, and families. Elisabeth has a doctorate in psychology and experience providing school psychological services to preschool through high school-age students in both English and Spanish. Elisabeth recently co-authored 45 Strategies that Support Young Dual Language Learners, a resource that provides practical, developmentally appropriate strategies for supporting children and families from diverse backgrounds and creating inclusive early childhood classrooms that foster the success of young DLLs. Elisabeth is enjoying the many adventures of parenthood with her husband and sons.

Rayna Flye, PhD, is Senior Specialist in Market and User Insights at Illustrative Mathematics, where she leads research with families, teachers, and district leaders to understand how high-quality math curriculum is experienced in classrooms and at home. A social scientist by training, Rayna specializes in research design, survey development, focus group facilitation, and qualitative and quantitative analysis, and her work on family focus groups informs how curriculum providers and schools communicate instructional change to the families they serve.

About the host

David Cicero is the host of Education Talk Radio on the Be Podcast Network.

• Listen to Education Talk Radio at https://edutalk.bepodcast.network
  
  
• Learn about more shows at https://bepodcastnetwork.com
  
  

Creators and Guests

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Family Engagement Lab

Family Engagement Lab builds the evidence base for instructional family engagement to connect classroom learning with what happens at home, and sustain it over time.

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Through conversations with the founders and CEOs, partner organizations, and the educators who are using their products in schools today, listeners hear about solutions relevant to their chronic challenges and opportunity-expanding ideas to go into uncharted directions.

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Implementation Series, Part 3: What Happens to Family Engagement When Instructional Practice Changes

David Cicero: Welcome to the EdTech Startup Showcase on the Be Podcast Network. I'm your host today, David Cicero. Feel free to also join me on the Education Talk Radio podcast here on the Be Podcast Network, where I also serve as host.
Today, we're continuing the implementation series with Family Engagement Lab. I'm fascinated by this topic, really. I've spent a lot of time thinking about the relationships between education stakeholders and how they contribute to students' success. And one thing is becoming increasingly clear: when the connection between school and family is strong, it helps reinforce the connection students feel to learning and to school itself. And we know that often translates into stronger attendance, engagement, and academic outcomes.
But what happens when instructional practice changes? In math, in particular, we've all said it. Many families have looked at what their children are working on at home and thought, this isn't how I learned it. And that's really the question we're exploring today. Not whether today's math instruction is right or wrong, but what happens to family engagement when instructional practice changes, and what it takes to build the bridge.
To help us think through that, I'm joined by Elisabeth O'Bryon, co-founder and Chief Impact Officer of Family Engagement Lab, and Rayna Flye, Senior Specialist in Market and User Insights at Illustrative Mathematics. Elisabeth, Rayna, welcome to the show today.
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Thanks so much.
Rayna Flye: Yeah, thank you for having us.
David Cicero: I want to just kind of jump right in, because this is personal to me and probably to every person listening. I have a 10-year-old, and he brings home math, and while it's not all that difficult, I've thought to myself, this isn't how I learned math. So Elisabeth, let me start with you. When families say that—this isn't how I learned math—what do you think they're really reacting to?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, so they really are noticing something real, because instruction genuinely has changed. And oftentimes families haven't gotten a lot of information about that. And so what has changed is that the goal often isn't just, you know, getting to that correct answer. It's more about understanding why the math works. And so that could mean more talking, more drawing or showing or thinking, and less of some of those procedures that they might remember from their experience in math class.
You'll also see a lot of new terms getting used in math classrooms today. I know I have a nine- and seven-year-old, and I will hear the two of them talking about number bonds or 10 frames, and I'm like, what are they talking about? So really, there is a different way of talking about math today. And families aren't wrong to notice, because the classroom does look different. And the problem really isn't that reaction, but more that systems don't really build in much to help families make sense of that shift.
David Cicero: That makes sense to me, 100%. I studied math. I taught math. And even still, when I see the problem, I'm like, I'll just solve it the way I know how, and you can learn the way I— But the focus of instruction is more on, let me see that thinking, right? Just being aware of that, that that is the important part. And so we need to be aware of that as parents.
Rayna, from sort of the math instruction and classroom perspective, from your experience, what do teachers understand about today's math instruction that many families never get the opportunity to see?
Rayna Flye: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you hit upon it, David. You have a background in math and you're like, hey, wait a minute, right? And so I don't think it's entirely uncommon for teachers, and particularly those who are teaching K-5, to say, hey, that's not how I learned it either, right?
I think the key difference, though, is that teachers receive professional learning and then they have the time to learn those new instructional practices, so they become fluent in it. And so by the time they're ready to teach, they already understand, you know, the purpose behind a given curriculum's design. They understand the design structure. They understand, you know, the entire curriculum. They've been through the teacher guides. They've been through the student guides. You know, they know how to incorporate instructional routines. They know ways of fostering mathematical discussions among students.
And so by the time the school year starts, they've already been immersed and are coming from a place that most families simply don't have access to. So like you said, even if you have a background in math, you're looking at it like, hey, what is going on? And so, you know, it's really that families are hearing about this—we sometimes hear them referred to as new math—for the first time. But they're not necessarily having that context or receiving that why and the supports behind it that teachers are receiving.
David Cicero: They're just entrenched in it. It's so normal for them by that time, right?
Rayna Flye: Exactly.
David Cicero: So when we look at what's actually happening in the classroom and looking for that disconnect now, like, where does that gap exist? Now, sounds like one place it exists—we've identified a few gaps. A gap at home: thinking, I don't know what's going on here, I'm not quite sure what's important. Sounds like we might have a gap at the system level, like, is this an important enough shift to communicate? But at the classroom level and the instructor level, gap: I'm so used to this, and so everyone—what I send home and what students, right—everyone knows what we're doing. I'm trying to identify those actual gaps and where they tend to show up most often. Is it in the curriculum itself, the classroom experience—Rayna, this is for you—homework, or somewhere else?
Rayna Flye: You know, I'm actually going to say somewhere else. I think it's kind of reflected in something that Elisabeth referred to a little bit earlier, in that I think it actually shows up on day one in the communication that goes home to families. I think sometimes that communication can largely amount to, okay, so we've adopted this new curriculum, it's problem-based, we think it's going to improve student learning, here's some links to some more information. Oh, and PS, by the way, we aren't doing homework anymore. So, okay, reach out to the teacher if you have some questions. Have a great school year. And I'm being a little bit facetious about that, right, but it's actually not too far off from what I've been hearing from family focus groups.
And one of the things I want to note in there—and it refers back to what I was talking about earlier—you're hearing terminology and they're like, it's problem-based. Okay, well, what does that actually mean? You know, it's going to improve student learning. Okay, well, what does that actually mean? Are we talking about, you know, improvements to student mathematical identities? Are we talking solely about test scores? Like, what does that actually mean? So there's a lot of terminology that can be used that doesn't make sense to families.
And also note in there, in my example I gave, that it tends to be a one-way conversation, right? So there was nothing in there about how families can actually get involved. And I think there can be an assumption on the behalf of the district there, where if we put this communication out, we've done our due diligence. And there's a little bit of, well, if there's an issue with this, then of course the families will reach out.
And that's something that I also see reflected in teacher focus groups. And so I'll ask them, okay, well, what information or feedback have you received from families? And I largely get crickets back. And more often than not, it's, well, we really haven't heard anything. And we also didn't really ask. And it's the idea that if they haven't heard anything, then families must be fine with what's going on. And I want to be really clear that when I say that, that's not a reflection upon teachers, right? That's a reflection on what happens when there aren't great communication processes in place to support how teachers and families can interact with one another. And to me, that's really what's contributing to the disconnect.
David Cicero: You mentioned that initial communication—and Elisabeth, I'm thinking about how this shows up for families. You mentioned initial communication that maybe just gives sort of a sweeping review of what's going on. And you mentioned maybe less than desirable communication, or maybe none at all, about really the heart of the matter as a school year goes on. How does that show up for families?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I think what's important to—and you know, Rayna, you're talking a little about the teachers—and from the family perspective, families really want to help. And so that's the starting point. And the gap really isn't like motivation, it's that information and access.
So how is it showing up? And for the curriculum that are using homework, when that comes through and it is unfamiliar, families sort of have this choice. Like, do I help and risk confusing my child, or do I take a step back? And you can hear, you know, kids, they'll say like, that's not right, my teacher told me to do it this way, you know. And so with that, a lot of families will maybe step back, not because they don't care, but because they don't want to do any harm or make it confusing for their children.
And so that withdrawal can also get misread as disengagement, when it's actually the sort of failure to equip families with the knowledge and the tools to really be supportive. And what happens more cumulatively is, you know, families will lose that confidence, and kids are missing out on this opportunity to really reinforce and practice what they're learning at school, at home. And that school and family connection can weaken exactly when the instruction is asking more of students.
David Cicero: So, Elisabeth, in instances where—I'm sure you've seen instances where communication has improved and what instruction is all about and what it's reaching for is properly communicated to parents—how does that show up for families? How does that affect familial support? And in what you've seen, do parents get on board, right? Does that motivation start to show up?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: For sure. And I think like, you know, when information moves from just like, all right, I'm informing you of what we're doing, to like, here's a way you can participate—that is really, really powerful. So making things more specific and actionable. You know, schools are really pretty good at the informing piece, but fewer have that infrastructure for the second part. And it doesn't require families sort of relearn math, but more giving them a small, really connected entry point.
And families are really positioned to make these connections between what's happening in the classroom for students and the things that their kids really care about. And so just showing that relevance of math and helping parents do that, that's what's really, really powerful and usable—those things that are, they're short, they're connected to something specific. And it helps families make that connection to something that their child really cares about. I know for my family, we've got a lot of sports lovers, so we do a lot of math connected to sports. But I think just, you know, that connection between what's happening in the classroom, that's designed as a conversation and something that's really accessible and actionable for families.
I know in our data, we really have seen that. And from sort of a qualitative perspective, you hear families saying like, oh my goodness, like getting more information about what kids are learning and how to help has helped me have other learning-focused conversations with my child. I see them light up. And families also feeling more confident in their ability to support their child. And then ultimately, right, students are benefiting academically when their families are supporting and reinforcing that learning.
As a psychologist too, I love, you know, some of the work that we've done to help build those connections. Families have said things like, I feel more connected to my child and to the teacher and to the school. So it's also building these relationships that are supportive and really promote that success widespread.
David Cicero: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Rayna, what are some things that you've seen schools do that successfully make curriculum visible to families, from the classroom side going home?
Rayna Flye: Yeah, there's two things. And I would say, for those who are listening, if you are able to do one thing, and then two things, they will actually genuinely move the needle.
The first thing is having a family math night—and for my example, thinking about math curriculum—where families are invited in, and having it at times when families can actually attend, right? That's key to it. But in my research, I found when families have been actively invited in from the start to participate in a lesson, to participate in a warm-up, and to see what the math actually is, and to actually have an opportunity to do it and see what it's about and what are the benefits—it really moves the needle from, what is this new math, this isn't how I learned it, to, oh wow, I wish I learned it this way. I maybe would have actually liked math had I learned it this way, right? So that is the thing I hear over and over again from families, that it's really been effective for them for understanding what their students are learning.
And then after that, the second thing I would mention is exactly along the lines of Elisabeth. One of the things when I've exposed family focus groups to examples of, okay, what would it look like if you had this sort of bite-sized communication? You don't need anything fancy. You don't need to have additional resources. It's what you have on hand right now in your day-to-day life, because, again, math is all around us. How would you incorporate that into your student's learning at home?
And there's been a lot of excitement. And the reason I think there's been a lot of excitement is that with families who, one, already have a working knowledge of what the curriculum is and what their students are actually learning, combining that with a way that, okay, I can do this—I just got home from work, I'm really tired, but actually this is something small that I can do that's going to be effective for my student's learning, and it makes sense to me. And I think those two things are really important. One, like I said, having direct exposure to what your students are learning, but then also having a direct way that's easy and accessible to reinforce that learning.
David Cicero: Math night, Rayna—don't threaten me with a good time here. This kind of ties back to something Elisabeth had mentioned a few minutes ago, where she was kind of getting at this idea of the difference between informing families about instruction and helping them participate in it, right? And we so often think about students feeling disconnected from the learning community, and maybe it's the same logic here. It works because there's a thirst there, and the reason is their child's success, and we're pulling them into the community. Now they feel a part of the community. Are we seeing families feel that way once things like this are implemented?
Rayna Flye: Yes, actually, you do see that. And we talk about building a mathematical community, and we talk about that within the classroom, but it's also beyond that. It's also incorporating families as well.
So again, removing that one-way directionality of, here's something, go out, this is what your kid's learning, have fun with that—to, let's mutually reinforce this in a way where you know what your students are learning, you know how to support what your students are learning. And so it goes on and it spirals out and continues, in that now you're a part of this. You're not just hearing about this if there's a problem at school. You're not just learning about what your student's doing when it's report card time. You are actively—if you think about it as like a 360 wraparound learning process, right—you are actively participants in the learning that's happening in the classroom, that's then being reflected in the learning that's happening at home.
David Cicero: Well, yeah, that's so interesting. You know, I think that's a theme in terms of education. When we think about a teacher and a student learning, teaching and learning is a two-way street. You're constantly teaching and learning from each other. It sounds like if a strong bond between teacher and student is created because of something like that, when we think about the school and the family, it's also a two-way street, right? You're constantly teaching and learning from each other. There's this cycle of information to develop that relationship in an even stronger way. I see that showing up now as you're both talking to me about how to build greater bonds with families.
So when we're thinking about this at a system level, let's say—Elisabeth, who does this work? Who does this fall on? What responsibilities belong to teachers versus school leaders versus curriculum providers, let's say?
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, definitely. I think everyone has a piece of the puzzle here. So thinking about teachers, they are consistently identified as the most trusted source of information about students for families. So families are like, I want to hear from my child's teacher. And so teachers are responsible for sort of delivering that connection point—a message, a prompt, you know, a heads-up about what's coming home, ways that families can start to integrate what's happening in the classroom into what they're doing at home. But teachers also shouldn't have to create everything from scratch. You know, that is not sustainable, and especially for teachers who have—all teachers, with so much on their plates. And so that's something that's really important too, to be thinking about as we think about the system: how do we enable and build the capacity of the system to be supportive of teachers?
Moving to school leaders, I think, you know, creating an expectation that two-way communication is like what we do—it's not a one-off. You're building in that time for teachers, recognizing this is really important. And I think, you know, bringing it to the math night, like, school leaders are instrumental in getting those off the ground, you know, in creating a welcoming school environment that invites families in, but then also continues that communication in between those touch points, and recognizes that, you know, you're going to reach some families with in-person opportunities and others with other opportunities, and to create those sort of options for families.
And then curriculum providers, you know, what is neat about that role is, you know, they know what's in each unit, so it can be really positioned to create that family-facing layer as well. But oftentimes, you know, what you may end up seeing are unit summaries, or—I know I've asked like, how can I get more? I'm like, oh, you haven't been using this online portal with everything? I'm like, no, I didn't even know it was there. So I think that there's just an opportunity for, you know, really thinking at the beginning and throughout, as a curriculum provider, about what will families' role be. And just thinking, like, how am I creating something that's accessible and meets families like in their home language, with information that's short, tied to what's happening in class, and enables the teacher to be a really key messenger?
David Cicero: Everyone has a part to play. That's what I'm hearing in some other conversations I'm having around students' connection to the school. I mean, it's coming up that even the front desk person has a role to play. The bus driver could have a role to play. I'm just seeing all these threads of where we can strengthen connections and how they support student achievement.
And what I'm thinking about now, Elisabeth—what are some things, like routines or structures or systems, that are put in place that don't make it feel like an add-on, that make it feel kind of seamless? Like, this is a part of how we instruct, and this is the part of the education we're providing.
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Yeah, definitely. This is a super important question. I think a piece of it is looking at what already exists within the school and the way it's operating. So thinking about like a family communication piece: how are you already communicating other information to families, and how can learning-focused information be part of that flow? So you're not asking for another app download or login to remember. It's something that families are already going to for information about the school.
Other pieces include, you know, making sure that the information going home to families is really aligned with the curriculum and what's happening in the classroom, not just generic—like, remember to read with your child, that sort of messaging.
Thinking about routines that can be integrated into what teachers are already doing. You know, teachers are looking at student data all the time, seeing like, all right, this is an area I need to focus in on, students might need extra support here. As part of that process, families should be on teachers' minds as well. Like, how can families get included into that and really be informed with actionable information in ways that they can participate and act on what teachers are seeing and be supportive at home?
And so I think the other piece of just, like, when those routines are in place and it happens regularly, families know what to expect. It's consistent and predictable. So it's not just that, you know, that one-time event. It's something that's like sustained connection over time.
David Cicero: Make it efficient for parents and teachers, right? So you use those communication layers that are already in place, and you leverage those. But also—you pointed back to something that Rayna had mentioned, actually, a few moments ago. Would you put it in this way: more like ensure alignment to the specifics happening in the class? This is ongoing communication. It's a bit more detail. So it's not just generic. It's not just, hey—yeah, right, like you said, help them read everything. Well, what are we reading? What is the purpose for this, right? To help them participate at home in a way that really promotes student success.
On the school side of things, Rayna: if a district adopts a strong curriculum, but you're also not intentionally bringing families along, what risks does that create for the implementation of that curriculum?
Rayna Flye: Sure, absolutely. You know, I think as we look at the math community as a whole and what's been happening in education, you know, there was the discussion about having high-quality instructional materials, and we have those now. It's transitioned to, what does implementation of those HQIMs look like? How do we implement those successfully so that we do see those outcomes for teachers, and then we also see those outcomes for students? And we're tackling that.
But I think, you know, one of the things that we need to put more of an emphasis on is, okay, we have that implementation and we're doing those practices, and that covers us for, you know, the six to seven hours of the school day that we have kids. What happens after that? We talk about having mathematical discussions. We talk about building math community. We talk about, you know, having these high-quality instructional materials—though none of those, and implementing those, none of those things need to stop when the bell rings, right?
And so we go back to that idea of, like, how can we have these ongoing opportunities? And as Elisabeth referred to earlier, you know, where it doesn't create a burden for teachers, because they have enough going on, and that also do not create a burden for families, because also they have a lot going on, in a way that can be mutually reinforced. And so that that learning doesn't stop. And when you can, like, refer to earlier, if you can keep that going from sunrise to sunset, right, you're going to have those students really learning the curriculum the way that we would like them to, and having families really understanding why that's important. And then that's when we start really seeing those positive student outcomes.
David Cicero: This is such a timely conversation. I've seen a lot of discussions around implementation of curriculum, whether that is physical, whether it's educational technology, and districts around the country are really focusing in on what happens after we have it in our hands. What does implementation look like? How do we get the gains that we're looking for? What do we do tomorrow, next month, six months, a year, two years from now? How do we make this work?
And it sounds to me like what we're really saying here—which is very much in line with what districts are thinking—is families are a part of that implementation. It's not just PD in place, or your plan, or even the vendor is contributing. Families are a part of that, right? So we can't forget that as we shift focus to implementation practices to ensure that our students are achieving academically and investment is going to return success for them.
Elisabeth and Rayna, I really appreciate this discussion. Thank you so much for coming on today and for sharing.
Elisabeth O'Bryon: Thank you.
Rayna Flye: Absolutely. It's been wonderful.