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Why is it so hard for leaders to admit they need care?
In this bonus episode of Behind the Seal, Mindy Caliguire returns to explore the internal resistance so many leaders face when it comes to their own health. Joined by ECFA President Michael Martin, this conversation moves beyond theory and into the real-life tension leaders experience every day.
From the hidden cost of constant output to the surprising discomfort of rest, Mindy and Michael unpack why leaders often avoid what they need most, and what happens when they finally choose to face it.
You’ll also hear:
- Why self-awareness is the first and hardest step
- What leaders discover when they stop “powering through”
- The unexpected reality of sabbatical (it’s not always what you think)
- Why it’s never too late for God to meet you — even in burnout
If you’ve ever felt stretched, exhausted, or unsure how to slow down, this conversation will meet you right where you are.
About Mindy Caliguire:
Mindy Caliguire is the founder of Soul Care, a ministry dedicated to helping leaders cultivate a healthy soul. With decades of experience in spiritual formation and leadership development, Mindy has guided countless leaders through seasons of burnout, renewal, and long-term sustainability.
Her work equips individuals and organizations to integrate rhythms of rest, reflection, and relational support into everyday leadership so they can flourish for the long haul.
Key Takeaways:
- Leaders often struggle to admit they need care, even when the signs are clear.
- Self-awareness is the starting point. You can’t address what you won’t acknowledge.
- Leaders have countless ways to avoid their struggles. Busyness often masks deeper needs.
- “Powering through” comes at a cost. Eventually, the system runs dry.
- Sabbatical isn’t about breakthroughs — it’s about rest and letting the ground lie fallow.
- The most meaningful transformation often happens in ordinary moments with God.
- Leader care fuels mission effectiveness. It’s not separate from impact, it sustains it.
- It’s never too late to begin. Even crisis moments can become turning points.
Additional Resources:
- ECFA Leader Care Resources
- Soul Care by Mindy Caliguire
- Spiritual direction & coaching resources
Call to Action:
If this episode resonated with you, take a next step:
- Share this with a leader who might be quietly struggling
- Subscribe for more conversations on healthy leadership
- Reflect honestly: Where am I avoiding the care I need?
Creators and Guests
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
Mindy Caliguire: [00:00:00] What any system needs is times for sustained care
Michael Martin: As ECFA is moving forward with leader care, I can definitely relate to those leaders who would say like, I didn't even realize how much I would need this.
Mindy Caliguire: It's lovely to normalize seasons of rest that is uncomfortable and vital.
Ryan Gordon: Last season on Behind the Seal, our conversation with Mindy CAG resonated deeply with our listeners. Since then, ECFA has advanced our Excellence in Leader Care standard and the conversation has only intensified. So we invited Mindy back for a bonus episode on Moving Leader Care from Theory to Reality.
Together she and Michael unpack why it's so hard for leaders to say, I need care. Michael also reflects candidly. On his own sabbatical. What prompted it, what surprised him, and why the ordinary moments turned out to be the [00:01:00] most meaningful. You'll also hear Mindy share from her own season of forced rest and why it's never too late for God to meet you right where you are.
Let's dive in.
Michael Martin: Well, Mindy, welcome back to the ECFA podcast.
Mindy Caliguire: Thank you. I love your new space. This place is gorgeous.
Michael Martin: Thank you. I know you're helping us. Break in this beautiful space that God has blessed us with.
Mindy Caliguire: That's amazing. Yeah.
Michael Martin: And uh, you have the distinction. I say welcome back because. Um, we're a bunch of CPAs around here and the joke is always like, who's counting?
But you are. This is your third time.
Mindy Caliguire: Well, you all counting
Michael Martin: back on the podcast, so,
Mindy Caliguire: oh, it's an honor. It's been so fun to collaborate with you guys. This is such an important point, uh, in the journey of the people of God and the leaders and you're playing such a key role in it. So it's an honor always to be with you guys.
Michael Martin: Well, thank you. And, uh, we were just praying before we got started and hit the record button and as you were praying, I was having these [00:02:00] flashbacks of like the journey we've been on, all the different places we've been and, uh, it, it has been a journey, but just been so grateful that you've been along for each step of the way as we've been advancing the standard.
Mindy Caliguire: It's been an honor and I love it. And I always say we are joking about the accountants and lawyers that of all the people who care about this topic, and there are many myself being one, uh, that when God said, okay, it's time to go. Do something about this. He entrusted it to the accountants and the lawyers to get it done.
Michael Martin: That's so the way of God, isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah. It's like, you know, he, he in some ways puts that call on the ones that we least expect sometimes.
Mindy Caliguire: Well, I don't know that we least expect it, but sometimes you would've thought it would've been more like the vocal. Like communicator types. And I have watched you and your team bring a level of steadfastness, uh, precision in my view, textbook change management [00:03:00] to, uh, a really important topic.
And I've seen the charism, the gifting that your team has brought to this. And I'm like, oh man. God knows. God knows what he's doing. This has been amazing, which of course is true, but uh, you guys have stewarded this really well.
Michael Martin: Well, thank you. Yeah. He does know what he's doing. Yeah. And anything, right, like God gets all the credit for anything else.
Mindy Caliguire: Always,
Michael Martin: always. It's on us. Um, and I know in. Our conversation today. Mm-hmm. We want to kind of pick back up where we left off last time you were with us on last season of the podcast. And Mindy, I got more calls, text notes from leaders who were listening in on our conversation and just really connecting with, huh.
Your story, what's going on with the standard and Yeah. One of the things that you mentioned in our last conversation is that we really do feel like we're kind of at an inflection point here. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm just curious. Yeah. You know, picking back up where we left off, which is true every time we get together.
Yeah,
Mindy Caliguire: that's
Michael Martin: true. We sort of [00:04:00] do that. Um, yeah. But even here on the podcast. Yeah. Just picking back up where we left off. Yeah. What have you seen in terms of that inflection point?
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah. I'm glad to hear that people resonated with that and that you were hearing some messages, and I, and I hope that'll continue to be the case.
Uh, yeah. I've been on this journey around leader Health for a very long time, so I have a, a history, uh, perspective, a histor and historical perspective on it. And I would say, um, there were. Entire decades where I felt like trying to get people to care about this topic was a bit of an act of futility.
Like it just, it, it was not on individual people's radar, and it was very. Almost completely absent from any collective radar of why would this matter? And so I would say in the last number of years, uh, really following the pandemic, but not only related to the pandemic, uh, we are seeing a, a much greater.
[00:05:00] Awareness and openness. Even the conversations around mental health have changed significantly in the last five, six years, which is wonderful. And I would say similarly, leader health, uh, is now rising to sort of a collective awareness that I believe is an inflection point, meaning it was one way in the past.
And we are at this point right now, and I believe by faith, but I believe with everything in me, there is a new day coming and the days of our ragged busy over driving, grasping leadership days, that can lead to some of the really tragic circumstances that leaders themselves and their organizations find themselves in.
Those days are gonna be, I mean, there'll still be crises, of course, that's life. But I think, I think the future is bright. I
Michael Martin: really do. I do too.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, speaking of, I guess, an inflection point in a way. Yeah. So since [00:06:00] uh, we were even last together, um. Even from an ECFA standpoint, um, we kind of came to the end of our, what we call the listening.
Mm-hmm. Period with the new standard. And the ECFA board made the decision to finalize and move forward, uh, in October of last year with the new standard. And so that felt very much kind of like our own internal inflection point, if you will. Of Yeah. Big we have milestone. We've heard. Yeah. Big milestone.
We're ready to move forward. Yeah. We're excited with what God's calling us into.
Mindy Caliguire: It's a big year ahead. So from your perspective, where have you seen since coming to that milestone? What, what gives you encouragement of about what the future could be?
Michael Martin: Yeah. When you ask that, I think of so many different leaders that we've talked with, different, um, boy in some ways, even just kind of sobering stories
Mindy Caliguire: mm-hmm.
Michael Martin: That you hear about the, the very real place that a lot of leaders find themselves in. Yes. And, um, you know. I'd say those who have also come alongside [00:07:00] and really encouraged ECFA in this vision and said, I mean, there's one organization, one leader I can think of who even said, um, this is a hill that ECFA should die on.
Mindy Caliguire: Oh, wow.
Michael Martin: I mean, using words like that
Mindy Caliguire: strong,
Michael Martin: that strong, that intense. Um, other leaders who would say things along the lines of. You know, as ECA is engaging in this, this new standard in leader care, it's not just, um, saving leaders but also families, ministries. And so, um, I could go into like dozens of those different mm-hmm.
Points of feedback that we've heard or stories, but I think, um, also just being real, um, I think, you know, one of the things that's. Most hopeful is also something that's been one of the greatest challenges too, which is just this idea of, uh, I guess where I'm really hopeful is seeing as we've continued in this conversation with so many leaders of ECFA member organizations, that they're beginning [00:08:00] to see how leader care is not disconnected from their mission or even e CFA's mission as an organization, but really seeing, uh, if at the end of the day our shared mission.
Is about accelerating the gospel or advancing the gospel in so many of their cases. Um, how leader care actually. Is part of that mission. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And these two things are not at odds with one another.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I, I think I've told you the story of one of my sort of mentors and friends over the years, uh, when he found out that I was working with you guys to try to support this in any way that I could.
He's like, what are you doing with you? Whatcha you doing with e cfa? You know,
Michael Martin: those e CFA people
Mindy Caliguire: which everyone loves ECFA, it wasn't about the organization, it was just felt like a little bit of a non-sequitur with the kind of work with SoulCare that I've often been committed to. And when I paused and explained what was at stake, what was on the [00:09:00] surface, uh, it took three seconds.
The dots all connected in his head, and he's like, that, that is vital. That is really important work. Stay close to that.
Michael Martin: Hmm.
Mindy Caliguire: And, uh, the, the mission that you have is shared by every organization that is a member of your organization, right? It's like the mission of the gospel advancing. Uh, is, is a, is the call.
That's the fundamental call that all of us have, whatever expression it takes. But I do believe that as organizations adopt this new standard, uh, it will help them fulfill their mission and it's gonna help you fulfill yours. Yeah.
Michael Martin: Yeah, there's been a lot of reflection on, um, and by the way, I mean, I can have empathy for people who raise those questions, or leaders who find themselves like
Yeah,
Michael Martin: racking their brains.
Well, that's like he said, trying to figure that
Mindy Caliguire: out. My friend said to me, what do you do? Yeah. Like, what does that have to do? But it does.
Michael Martin: Yeah. But it's been so [00:10:00] good for us too, of even just remembering the first word in e CFA's name is, is Evangelical, right? Mm-hmm. And like at the end of the day, that is really what we're all about.
Mm-hmm. I guess I put that all in the category of like. Leaders seeing that this is part of leader care is, is part of what's necessary for sustained Yeah. Ministry. Yeah. Um, if we want to be in this for the long haul. Yes. And I mean, you know, we could talk about all the, the challenges in terms of like when leaders do face burnout or they're dropping out or they have these.
Um, tragic integrity failures, what that does to, to trust and the gospel witness and all that. But, but I am really hopeful. I, I believe we're really beginning to see the tide turn.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I believe the days of of, of really unhealthy leadership are gonna be behind us. There'll be episodes of unhealth, like today.
There's like more rare cases of deep health, and I think those are gonna reverse. I think we're gonna see more the norm being set. [00:11:00] At health and healthy, uh, flourishing, really that leaders will move into a place because I I, you cannot read the New Testament and in any way, imagine that Jesus thought that living a life of following him into service, uh, was ever gonna be done away from him.
And whenever we lose that connection with God, unhealth follows, I. It's easy. It happens all the time in our leadership, but the, the thought of unhealthy leadership would never have been what Jesus had in mind for his people, for the church.
Michael Martin: Hmm.
Mindy Caliguire: So we're moving back.
Michael Martin: That's right
Mindy Caliguire: as we move forward.
Michael Martin: I love that.
What a great vision. Yeah. Interestingly, looking back and looking forward. Yeah.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: Um, well, one of the things that is, is necessary for us to make that shift is like, we gotta move from theory to actually implementing these things, right? Mm-hmm. And so what do you see [00:12:00] as some of the biggest obstacles for leaders in terms of making that shift of saying okay.
Michael and Mindy, I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Leader care is important. I can see how Christ even models some of the importance of these things. Yeah. Um, but in terms of actually,
Mindy Caliguire: yep.
Michael Martin: I'm gonna say facing the reality. I don't know if that's the right way to look at it, but just saying, okay, I need this.
Or it's time to move forward. What are some of those obstacles you see leaders work through?
Mindy Caliguire: I just talked to a leader about this yesterday, uh, in the context of their congregation. And my answer then and today would be this. I think one of the biggest barriers is our lack of like self-awareness. We kind of assume me and God are good.
I'm saved. Obviously I might still, I'm having my quiet time every morning. I'm doing the things. Um, but there's not a lot of awareness of and self-awareness of. Like how are you actually on the inside? Like you can do the things that we know to check [00:13:00] boxes and like, I'm not meaning to minimize any of those really important practices that we might be building into our lives, but what I have discovered in my own life, my own leadership, and then with many others that I work with, is that it's possible to sort of burn through a 45 minute quiet time, but never let your soul really be open to God.
Now, this is a deep topic. I don't mean to run quickly over it, but. What We're never gonna get to desiring that health if we can't look inside and go, wow, where am I actually struggling?
Michael Martin: Hmm.
Mindy Caliguire: And leaders have 8,000 and more reasons to never have to face where they're struggling. 'cause their whole life is about making sure they're showing up with as much as they can.
And, and those interior struggles even they themselves might not yet be quite aware of. And so. Building ways of increasing our self-awareness on how we actually [00:14:00] are doing. That may sound like a silly first step, but I really do think. Taking an honest look inside, guided by the Holy Spirit is one of the most courageous things a leader can do, and I take that definition as a definition of sort of soul searching or self-examination.
And it's out of Psalm 1 39 where the Psalmist David writes, search me of God and know my heart. Test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there's anything in here that needs rearranging, correcting, whatever, and then lead me in the way everlasting. And those, that kind of a prayer is a courageous prayer.
And I would say for leaders that going from concept to what's real. Is that kind of prayer can be a first step. Like, God, search me, show me what's going on inside, and then lead me into that whatever is next for me. Um, beyond that, all the barriers are overcomeable because they're all leaders. They know how to get stuff done, right?
Right. [00:15:00] It's like once you decide a thing is a priority, then then you're a leader. You figure out how to do this stuff. The barriers, there still may be things like how to shift their time and schedule to better accommodate their life with God or healthier boundaries with their work, which will in the end benefit the organization.
Not the reverse, but it feels hard in the meantime. So time and how we spend it, uh, financial constraints can be an issue. Like what if it, what if I need resources to engage, uh, marital counseling or. Or another kind of therapy or a coaching or a spiritual director or any sort of a relational journeying or time away on retreat or more extended time away, those kinds of things can be.
Thought of as barriers, but that's what leaders are great at, is figuring out how to overcome barriers. The first barrier is the, the willingness that, is it me, God? What, what, what do you have for me to hear, [00:16:00] um, to see about my own wellbeing and not just assume because I'm checking any boxes that I'm fine.
Michael Martin: I love to hear you call us to that. Um, which I want to come back to in a second, even for myself.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: Uh, as you were just sharing all that, I was thinking about my own self-awareness and journey and all that. But one obstacle too that I, I didn't hear you mention, but I know we talk about this all the time and, and hopefully we're moving past it being an obstacle, is, uh, even the leader's relationship with the board and like is, oh goodness, the board supportive of this and all that.
And that's where we're hopeful again. Because of V CFA's experience over the years in governance. Yes. And we really see leader care as a connection. Yes. Uh, this is a natural extension of good governance. Um, anyway, uh, we're, we're, we're excited to see that obstacle being overcome.
Mindy Caliguire: I have served on church boards.
I've served on nonprofit boards. Um, I've been under the leadership of boards, like I've [00:17:00] been on many sides of those things. And those board relationships, they're vital to healthy governance. And yet they can be difficult. So I'm really glad you brought that up. That can be a, a, a concern, but I think the way you have framed under God's guidance that you, and the feedback you've gotten from all the members, you have framed this in a way that I think sets up leaders and their boards to enter a very, um.
Relational process, something that is accessible. It's not like nobody needs to have a PhD in spiritual formation.
Michael Martin: Right.
Mindy Caliguire: They, they can, they can do this. Yes. They can have very honest conversations that feel safe.
Michael Martin: Yeah.
Mindy Caliguire: And find ways to make this conversation, uh, beneficial to the board and to the leader and, and to find ways of maybe.
Accommodating it within the governance of the board. That doesn't put any one board member on the [00:18:00] hook to make it all work. I've heard a lot of examples of how you imagine these could be played out and I've, I've heard a couple of organizations how they're starting to have a committee on the president or, you know, I've heard lots of different versions of it and it's just lovely to hear all this creativity start to come, which is, I think we're only on the front end of that.
Michael Martin: I think so too. So I'm glad we're moving past that.
Mindy Caliguire: Yep.
Michael Martin: I'm glad you brought it
Mindy Caliguire: up though.
Michael Martin: Yeah. Uh, it's been such an important topic
Mindy Caliguire: mm-hmm.
Michael Martin: Over these years.
Mindy Caliguire: And wouldn't it be great if more and more healing comes in these kinds of relationships and we're setting new norms Yes. For executive director or senior leader and board relationships?
Wouldn't
Michael Martin: that be what? That just. Yeah. What that would do for governance in general.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: Whole different podcast episode maybe.
Mindy Caliguire: That's right. I'm coming back. Michael.
Michael Martin: Yes, you're coming back. You'll, you will be back. Um, but yeah, even just to your point earlier about mm-hmm. Self-awareness. Yeah, I know. I, I definitely experienced a lot of that myself too, of, um, and you and I had.[00:19:00]
These conversations too, of, in some ways kind of feeling like a little bit of an inception type experience of Okay, as ECFA is moving forward with leader care. Yeah, I can definitely relate to those leaders who would say like, I didn't even realize how much I would need this. Um, because reflecting on the journey that we've been through, I mean, it has been a lot.
It's been, like you said, change management and discernment, and you feel the. Just the significance and the weight of what it is that we're doing. And, um, there've been a number of different obstacles, challenges to overcome along the way and how those, um. Uh, really, you know, we're, we're great. I guess I could say even just like tests mm-hmm.
Uh, in leadership, but even as I came to find, like in my own soul, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, I guess that's my long-winded way of saying, I came to a point of saying like, I needed this more Yes. Than what I thought. Like, yes, okay. E CFA's journeying to like serve all these other leaders and all the things that we're gonna be doing is [00:20:00] so helpful for all these other people.
And then. God's like, okay, you need a little bit of humility. Like I'm shining the light on the things that you need
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: Help with.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah. Yeah. And I remember some of the conversations we would have around that stuff, and it was tender. It's like there's a like, oh, this vulnerability. Like, oh, this is, this is heavy.
This is, I'm feeling a weight that is different than what I have felt in the past. And I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. No, you're, but that's what I recall. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. And, and I thought. Oh, isn't this like I, I was meeting you in the moment, but another part of my brain was going, oh, isn't this just like God to be like not giving you the empathy for really strong, very godly leaders who are out there just doing great work.
Navigating boards, navigating finances, navigating their team, navigating strategic priorities, navigating all that stuff, and then at some point [00:21:00] going, wow. The more I think about it, the, this is a lot and it's not bad. None of it's wrong. None of it was wrong. None of it was being done in an unhealthy way.
It's just.
Michael Martin: It's the reality of the thing. It's
Mindy Caliguire: just heavy. I, and I always say, you've probably heard me say this before, you know, it's like if even Jesus knew when power had left him, right? The woman comes and just touches his garment and he's turning around going like, Hey, what happened? Which we still have a hard time believing, like, how did he not know?
Like, but let's just presume maybe he was surprised, but whether he was surprised or not, he felt. A shift, and I believe that every leader, as you're serving with your gifting, his in that moment was healing. But as you're leading with your leadership, as you're giving wisdom through discernment as you're teaching, if that's your gift, whatever it is, as you serve.
We're not like an infinite resource. [00:22:00] Power energy leaves the system and there are times when we just were tired. We, we are more tired than we knew. And again, there's no shame in that. There's nothing wrong with that unless we don't pay attention. And to your credit. You were like, Hey, I, I, oh, I think, I think this leader care thing might be a little closer to home than I knew.
Michael Martin: This is pretty relevant.
Mindy Caliguire: Uh,
Michael Martin: yeah. That's, you know, the timing, uh, and the structures that were being put in place, like, I'm so grateful. That, yes. ECFA was on our own journey of these things of saying, and, and now I will always say too, like we had the great benefit of, as we're doing the survey work and the research, like we're, we're hearing from, you know, hundreds of organizations, 2,700 that are part of ECFA, of saying like, what are the best practices?
Who has com, you know, committees on the president or these different structures. And so we're like building that plane, if you will. Kind [00:23:00] of for
Mindy Caliguire: your own
Michael Martin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I'm experiencing those things. And so I've just been very blessed by, uh, the ECFA board's work on this topic through our committee on the president, and then, um, even a sabbatical experience later that would come and all that.
And, oh, like I'm still very much on the journey of all of these things, but, uh, yeah, like you said, isn't that just like, God,
Mindy Caliguire: oh, it is. It's just like God and. To your credit, like of course you're leading the effort on this thing, so you must have had layers of what do I do with this? But I, uh, I remember when you started to become more aware of it and kind of talking and processing, processing some of that exploration for yourself.
And, you know, I think you could relate to this, and I'll be curious, maybe I'll just ask you directly, like, do you, was there a point where you could have been like, I'm just gonna power through this, I don't need help.
Michael Martin: Yes. Yes.
Mindy Caliguire: And you didn't take that path.
Michael Martin: [00:24:00] And I think maybe just knowing what the danger would be.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: And just choosing that. Yeah.
Mindy Caliguire: Those are some of the courageous moments for leaders. Hmm. When that self-awareness comes in, it's an incredibly uncomfortable place to feel like you're in a deficit of any kind.
Michael Martin: It feels outta control.
Mindy Caliguire: It's yeah, way outta control. And it's hard. And, and so often we just resist it.
We refuse it, we deny it. We, we run away from it. We medicate it. We move into all kinds of directions rather than face it. And I, I guess I just wanna applaud you for having come to that moment and not, again, you had lots of layers to this. S given that you're rolling this out, but I think in your heart of hearts, you could have defended pushing through it and no one would've been the wiser.
Michael Martin: Hmm.
Mindy Caliguire: But you didn't do that. [00:25:00]
Michael Martin: Well, thank you. I had some great wise people around me.
Mindy Caliguire: Well,
Michael Martin: such as you. Yeah.
Mindy Caliguire: And others.
Michael Martin: I think that's the ECA team.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: So there have definitely been some of those, like soul searching. Mm-hmm. Kind of big moments. Um, but then another, you know, just thing as I, I think back and do reflect on the journey that we've been on and, and even experiencing.
A sabbatical. Mm-hmm. That was a gift from the ECFA board.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: In some ways tied to the Leader Care standard, but also just from a timing standpoint in a lot of ways, uh, made sense, kind of, yeah. In the season period of time that ECFA was in. But one of my reflections, uh, even during the sabbatical, and I found myself trying to make sense of this even as, as I was experiencing it, was, um, I don't know what exactly my expectations were.
Of being, I'd never, never had a ministry sabbatical before. Uh, but I think maybe I anticipated sometimes more like extraordinary. Mm-hmm. [00:26:00] Like either like mountaintop things or like Wow, you know, um, time with the Lord that it's like you're gonna be, you're gonna come back from it and be like, Moses, you know, with the 10 Commandments, or like, here's
Mindy Caliguire: the new
Michael Martin: revelation.
Like that. Yeah. Yeah. Or that people would have those expectations, that that's what it would be. But I found myself during the time period that, that I was gifted and took with our family that there were a lot of just also very like ordinary moments.
Mindy Caliguire: Mm-hmm.
Michael Martin: With the Lord. And so I bring that up too, because
Mindy Caliguire: yeah,
Michael Martin: I think there's.
There are a lot of unknowns that leaders have when it comes to whether it's a sabbatical or other experiences, and, uh, I think it's just good that we like normalize, you know, some of this too.
Mindy Caliguire: Well, I think sometimes we, we end up in these narratives that if I take time away I have to have some like spectacular encounter or experience.
And certainly God does do that sometimes, but sometimes not. And it's lovely to normalize. [00:27:00] Seasons of rest, seasons of letting the ground live fallow without needing it to somehow be productive in the fallow. You know what I mean? We place demands on. Uneven the rest, and
Michael Martin: it's a totally different gear. D,
Mindy Caliguire: we're so used to being in productive mode.
Different, yeah. And it's a terrifying gear. If you're so used to being in drive, drive, drive, which most leaders are, and that's their gifting, there's nothing wrong with that. But when you are letting ground live fallow to not. You know, meaning it's not being planted, harvested, like, no, we're just gonna let this sit there and let nature do its thing that, that is uncomfortable and vital.
Michael Martin: Mm-hmm.
Mindy Caliguire: It's absolutely vital for leaders and it is very disorienting for all. I've, I've talked to a lot of people in going into sabbatical or coming out of sabbatical, or even during sabbatical, who are like. Am I supposed to be feeling a certain thing or what is this? What is this? Is this, how do I know if [00:28:00] it's working?
Like those kinds of questions we often have and uh, and they're not wrong questions, but part of the working of sabbatical is just letting the ground life fallow. Seeing there are maybe things that the Lord is doing that you won't know about for years.
Michael Martin: Planting those seeds. Yep. It's definitely a, uh. Oh, I think you've used the expression before, like a trust fall.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: You know, 'cause we're letting go of so much of the way we're used to living. Yes. And our expectations and,
Mindy Caliguire: mm-hmm.
Michael Martin: But isn't there something really sweet about it too, in terms of we're embracing, I mean, I always just come back to like, it's a very biblical idea.
Mindy Caliguire: It
Michael Martin: is. Like even in, you know, we think of the Sabbath and those things, but these are rhythms that God.
Instituted. Mm-hmm. And so in a lot of ways, like. We're not doing anything special. You know, we're just walking in.
Mindy Caliguire: No,
Michael Martin: it's a very biblical idea.
Mindy Caliguire: Oh my goodness. It's a very biblical idea. And which, you [00:29:00] know, one of the hard things for our team to hear over the years, and for me personally to hear has been how often a sabbatical gets framed almost in a very negative way.
I, there are some church large. Staff, large churches that I've worked with and had some conversations with some of the people in their hr, and it's like sabbatical, like you do not wanna go in sabbatical.
Michael Martin: It's almost like a, a dirty word or like a bad word or something.
Mindy Caliguire: It is code for you're behaving really badly and we need to figure out how to get rid of you.
Right. Or give you a different position. Give you a place where you can, I mean, it is
Michael Martin: something must be wrong.
Mindy Caliguire: I know. Yeah. And, and, and so like. People don't wanna go on sabbatical, and it's like, wait, how did we take this beautiful, beautiful concept and turn it into like a, an indictment and that? Now let's just also play the other side of this.
There are times when senior leaders [00:30:00] do need a soft. Exit from an organization, and boards and teams are probably wise to harness some of that language. But I, I talked to somebody one time who was being given a season of rest after a really hard season. They weren't doing anything. You know, really, really reprehensible or anything, but it was, and they were framing it as a sabbatical, and I said, guys, can you please just not call this a sabbatical?
Because if that person warrants a good break because of a hard run they've just been through, and then there's some things going on in their personal life, give them that rest. Give them that space. But let's not call it a sabbatical. Let's let a sabbatical be a thing that. Is a rhythm. I love that you use that word.
It's a rhythm that we would, God willing be building into our organizational structures that on a regular basis, after a certain season of service or number of years within an organization, you become eligible [00:31:00] for a, a, a, an extended time away. Even the marketplace is starting to do this. Large companies hogs spot.
Go figure. You're
Michael Martin: right.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah, I know. Because they're seeing the benefit. To their, to a staff member's longevity, to their contribution. And it's like, I think, let look, come on people. Let's bring this back as something virtuous and something beneficial to the individual, to the leader, and to the entire organization.
Michael Martin: Yeah, that's right. Well, so a lot of what we've been talking about has been more on the, shall we say, like proactive Yeah. Side, but picking up on something that, that you were just sharing and mm-hmm. And I know it's really a part of your story too, so I want to be sure to kind of touch on this. Mm-hmm. Uh, in today's conversation is also just this idea that it's never too late.
Um, sometimes we may find, I guess the ideal scenario would be. The proactive leader care and all these things, but yeah, [00:32:00] they're, I guess I want to also just acknowledge there are, there are leaders who are listening that are mm-hmm. They find themselves in really tough
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Martin: Challenging situations and so
Mindy Caliguire: never, what
Michael Martin: does that look
Mindy Caliguire: like?
Yeah. Never. Don't take a sabbatical just because it's not in the proactive category. If you as a leader. Are desperately in need of some rest and a time away. Um, if you have a feeling you're careening towards an edge that you do not want to go off of, by all means, I would encourage those leaders to negotiate that with their board, with their team, and to take whatever it is they need and recognize that that is not selfish.
It is not, it is not irresponsible. It is the most. Responsible thing they can do for their own life and their leadership. And you know, I, there's there, while I would desire that a sabbatical isn't framed only as a crisis, if there is a crisis, maybe come up [00:33:00] with a new name, but get that time away. Call it a sabbatical if you must, if that's what works in your context.
But the, the need for. An intervention. Is real. Sometimes we need an intervention. And you know enough about my story. Mine wasn't called a sabbatical. Um, but actually twice in my life I've had a season of, in one case, quite forced rest where because my deep on health in my leadership and how I was living it out.
Actually got pressed through my body. Like I had neurological symptoms. I was sidelined from my life for a season. And everything I've come to believe about the care of the soul came out of that season. But I didn't know that on the front end, and I didn't know if I'd ever get better. And it was confusing.
I was arguing with God, telling him all the reasons. This was not strategic, you know? 'cause all [00:34:00] the jobs I was doing weren't getting done. And, uh. Uh, first of all, which is ridiculous, but, um,
Michael Martin: yeah, us telling God something's not strategic.
Mindy Caliguire: I know. Can you imagine? I mean, this is a picture of the arrogance that I've had to confess on repeat in my life, but, um, that season was very disorienting.
Was not chosen by me. And sometimes leaders get put, put on sabbatical where it was not chosen by them. I know of at least a few, and that can be really disorienting, really hard. You can feel like why, you know, betrayed by a team or your board, but to embrace it and to enter into the unknowing, enter into the.
What could this mean for my life, uh, is a really important thing. So that was many years ago for me. Others I've talked to since who've had similar experiences, but there was another time, and I joke [00:35:00] about this, my husband and I, he, he always says that you don't take a nap. A nap takes you, which is, I think, true about naps.
But as it relates to sabbatical, uh, I found that I was in a season where I was in a massive amount of transition. I was grieving some really hard things that had happened, and all of it came at the same time, and I didn't have the foresight to realize this was happening. But again, I, I don't think I was on the edge of some, like, major disaster, but I could tell I was kind of careening a little bit.
And so I like to say that I didn't take a sabbatical, but a sabbatical took me and I took a month. And, and God met me with a, you know, a therapist who ended up spending a couple days with, with a friend, a spiritual friendship that I spent a week with. All these different things lined up with dates so perfectly aligned.
No one could have made it up except the Lord, but it was [00:36:00] so healing. It was so what? My soul needed to just hit an eject button for a season. Now, other seasons in my life, when I had young kids around, you could, you can't do that in every season. But in this season I was able to. And so both this time of forced rest many years ago, and this more recent time of when I say a sabbatical took me, um, I found without being quite so proactive as if.
I were in an organization that had the leader care standard that it was moving toward. Um, I, I received the benefit of that time, of that forced rest of a time away and entering into new rhythms, entering into different relationships that, uh, allowed me to get the space that I needed. And for leaders who need that, it's not, there's nothing wrong with you that you need that.
That that's like, this is the part that we're trying to [00:37:00] normalize is that it is entirely normal to live a life where the refueling is happening. And, you know, you can draw great metaphors of like fighter jets that get refueled in the air and like, I know, but sometimes you gotta land the plane for a minute and just let, let all the people do their things to, to make sure you're okay.
It's okay. It's just what any system needs is times for sustained care
Michael Martin: and that's the heart of God.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah. It's,
Michael Martin: it's such compassion for us.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah.
Michael Martin: Um, we put up so much resistance sometimes to receiving.
Mindy Caliguire: I'm learning,
Michael Martin: but it's the gift of God.
Mindy Caliguire: I'm learning, it's a
Michael Martin: grace,
Mindy Caliguire: but I'm a slow learner. At times, I was just thinking I have a, I've had a lot of travel in the last like 10 days or whatever, and I started looking at the next time I'm back in Colorado and there and only one meeting was left on the [00:38:00] day and I thought, wait, why are you doing that?
You should move that to a different day and make sure that you get a full day that you're not on. That you don't have the gas pedal, you're not driving, you're not pushing. And I just did. Uh, yeah,
Michael Martin: I love that. I mean, and it is, that's just a such a, uh, in some ways, um, just a practical and simple way of saying like, we're all still on the journey.
Yeah,
Mindy Caliguire: always.
Michael Martin: Yeah. And, uh, Mannie, I just appreciate what you shared from your own story too, because as I'm sitting here and listening and as your friend and reflecting back with you on all those things, it's to say. You're like, in some ways that ultimate testimony of mm-hmm. It's, it's never too late, I mean.
Mm-hmm. And look what God has done in you, and then even just from out of your story and your experience, uh, birthing this passion, this ministry for soul care. So I mean, any leader who's listening, no matter where you are, [00:39:00]
Mindy Caliguire: yes.
Michael Martin: God wants to meet you right there. Yes. It's not the end of the story.
Mindy Caliguire: Mm-hmm.
Michael Martin: He'll use it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, your story's just such a great testimony of that.
Mindy Caliguire: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks.
Michael Martin: Yeah. And then, uh, I know there's other things that we touched on in our conversation today that we'll just have to come back to at some other point. Uh, but we know you'll be back. So thanks for making time to be with us today.
Mindy Caliguire: Always delighted. Always delighted. A big fan. A big fan of everything you're doing.
Michael Martin: Well, thank you. We consider you part of the ECFA team. You're just family around
Mindy Caliguire: here still. Let's just do it. I love it.
Michael Martin: Thanks.
Mindy Caliguire: You're very welcome.
Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation.
We'll see you next time.