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First Time Property Investor is for Australians who want to invest in property but feel stuck between too much information, conflicting advice, and the fear of getting it wrong. Get honest conversations, practical insights, and clear strategy to help you avoid costly mistakes and move forward with confidence.
Hosted by: Imtiyaz Rather from Hack Mortgages, Pete Theodorou from Mindset Property and Skye Taylor from Taylored Property. You get get the full picture from Mortgage Broking, Buyers Agency and Property Management.
Want to connect with us? ➜ https://linktr.ee/ftpi.pod
[00:00:00] Imti: Today we're talking about three lies the property influencer space pushes every day: that you need to grind harder, that more property is always better, and that everyone should be investing in property. For a lot of people, this content gets them really excited because they want to change the situation that they're in, and they're dreaming about a better future for themselves.
But the dark side of it is that it also triggers a lot of anxiety. It makes you feel behind, confused, and that the only way to be successful is to do exactly what this property influencer or guru is talking about online. So we're gonna take it head-on, because these are micro conversations that we have with clients every day, and so we wanted to just put together the big three that we have come up all the time.
We're gonna take you through what's actually worth questioning, what matters in practice, and how to think about this property content whenever it pops up on your feed
[00:00:55] Lie #1
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[00:00:55] Imti: Let's start with the first lie You just need to grind harder. Now, this is a message that's out there every single day, and Pete, I'd be really interested to kinda get you to talk us through it, because I know that you actually half believe in this.
[00:01:11] Pete: Yeah, I do think you have to grind. But it depends on what we're talking about here, 'cause-
[00:01:16] Imti: Mm-hmm ...
[00:01:16] Pete: when we're talking about trying to buy property these days, it's definitely out of the ordinary, I think we can agree-
[00:01:22] Imti: Mm-hmm
[00:01:22] Pete: ... to be buying property. Years ago, it was something pretty standard. Everyone did it.
[00:01:26] Imti: Yeah.
[00:01:26] Pete: And I'm just a big believer in if you wanna do something out of the ordinary, then you are going to need to... and I don't like to use grind-
[00:01:33] Imti: Mm-hmm
[00:01:33] Pete: ... but we'll say grind here. You do need to grind it out to get there. But what it doesn't factor in, and it's just a dopamine hit, like you said before.
[00:01:40] Imti: Mm.
[00:01:40] Pete: But to get there, though, it depends on people's circumstances. So the people telling you to grind it out, it's important to try and understand where they're coming from, because what's their income? Have they had family help? What life stage are they at? Everyone's different, and the hustle culture at the moment and I think it's everywhere, it's not just property.
[00:01:58] Skye: Mm.
[00:01:58] Imti: Mm.
[00:01:58] Pete: It's definitely misleading, and it's making people feel pretty shitty about themselves. Like-
[00:02:03] Skye: This is-
[00:02:03] Pete: Yeah
[00:02:03] Skye: ... something I feel in my soul, as someone who did own property, and an investment property, had to start all over again.
And now, as that single income, I do see these things and go, "Well, yeah." You don't stop to think, "Okay, what options did they have? Their story's not the same as mine. "
[00:02:20] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:21] Skye: And I'm starting all over again, and it feels like the longest grind ever. But obviously if I had another 10, 15 years and an extra income, well, life is a bit different.
But,you see this stuff and you instantly feel bad that you're not where they are, but you're not looking at the bigger picture of how they got there.
[00:02:38] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:38] Pete: Yeah.
[00:02:38] Imti: The bigger picture I do wanna touch on in a little bit more detail with you guys, but the other thing that I wanted to jump to and get both of your thoughts on is - hardest working people don't make the most amount of money.
There's not this equal thing that exists where it's oh, if you just work really, really hard, and all things being equal, you're gonna earn the most amount of money. And it's almost like a shame tactic that's used to divide people online, right? that's what this whole philosophy and social media world is.
It's put out an opinion that divides people. Half the people jump on your side of the fence, and half the people jump on the other person's side of the fence. And to your point, Skye, you grinding and working really, really hard in your situation- There's always gonna be a ceiling on what that output looks like. You will be able to change your circumstances.
[00:03:27] Skye: Mm.
[00:03:27] Imti: But-
[00:03:27] Skye: But as a single income. Yeah.
[00:03:28] Imti: Yep. Single income, two kids, very, very different to-
[00:03:32] Skye: Mm
[00:03:32] Imti: ... joint household, big income, no kids, low rent.
[00:03:36] Skye: Mm.
[00:03:37] Imti: Even if you outwork them by 200%.
[00:03:39] Skye: It still doesn't change.
[00:03:40] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:41] Skye: Yeah.
[00:03:41] Pete: Yeah.
[00:03:41] Imti: the second part of that is the influence of credibility, right?
' Cause we'll see a lot of people online talking about their 10, 15, 20 property portfolio. Pete, what's really misleading about that?
[00:03:55] Pete: Well, it's how they built it.
[00:03:56] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:56] Pete: Because as we all know, if you have a good business and you're earning a lot of money, you can buy as many properties as you want.
[00:04:02] Skye: Well, I think it's timing too.
[00:04:03] Pete: Yeah. Timing definitely has an element to it, but there's just a couple of people that I think off the top of my head that I-
[00:04:09] Skye: Mm ...
[00:04:10] Pete: very much know they didn't have a portfolio before they started the business. Mm. And now their major selling point is-
[00:04:16] Imti: That they have a portfolio
[00:04:16] Pete: that they have a portfolio.
[00:04:17] Skye: I know what you mean. Yeah.
[00:04:18] Pete: Yeah. Now, there's definitely a handful of people out there who have built the portfolio before they started the business.
[00:04:22] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:22] Pete: It's not everyone, but there's definitely quite a few who pretty much started with zero.
[00:04:27] Skye: Mm.
[00:04:28] Pete: And now they're pumping the whole narrative around you can build a property portfolio on your PAYG too, even though they didn't do it.
[00:04:35] Skye: Mm. But they're, you know, popping 20K each for a buyer's agency fee.
[00:04:39] Pete: Exactly. And then that's the return,
[00:04:41] Skye: right? You get a deposit- So, yeah ... really quickly with that one.
[00:04:43] Imti: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Three clients and you're, you're off to the races.
[00:04:46] Pete: And- And that's, that's exactly it, yeah.
[00:04:47] Imti: Yeah.
[00:04:47] Skye: Not throwing shade on buyer's agents.
No,
[00:04:49] Pete: no,
[00:04:49] Skye: no.
[00:04:49] Pete: I, I completely agree with it.
[00:04:49] Skye: But I know exactly what you're talking about.
[00:04:51] Imti: Yeah.
[00:04:51] Skye: Yeah.
[00:04:51] Imti: and it's definitely that situation of, like,rightfully so, everyone looks for proof, right? I wanna work with someone who's done the thing, but the second layer of that is how and when did they do the thing?
[00:05:00] Pete: Yeah.
[00:05:01] Imti: If they built their portfolio or created their financial freedom by being really, really good at marketing-
[00:05:07] Skye: Mm ...
[00:05:08] Imti: and building a personal brand and then monetising that personal brand to then buy all the assets- Did they really come from the same place as you? Are you really following their blueprint and what they've done?
Or are they just going, " I'm on the top of this castle, I'm the aspirational person, I'm relatable 'cause I came from humble beginnings, and you should just follow me blindly"?
So I think we're all in agreeance that where these influencers started from is a big contributing factor, but also that the grind will only get you so far. When, and I hate using the term, healthy grinding, but when you're looking at making a sacrifice or changes to try and get into the property market, what are the things the two of you are seeing that are actually sustainable, that are making big differences?
[00:05:56] Skye: well, using my own situation,I'm not suggesting everyone starts a business, but looking at how you can explore another revenue stream in some way-
[00:06:05] Imti: Mm
[00:06:05] Skye: ... can help the lever adjust your situation. or I think we were talking before, like whether you can move in with friends, save on rent to be able to save more.
When you are on a fixed income, you've got that ceiling, so your only way of changing that is to look at other options, and that's where that healthy grind comes in. But these stories that we're hearing don't talk about that part.
[00:06:26] Imti: Hmm. It's also, approaching it with a results-based mindset, right? Sometimes it's not working harder. Maybe it's taking a step back, and if you're in the position to, upskilling yourself on something so you can move into a role-
[00:06:38] Skye: Mm
[00:06:38] Imti: ... with greater income-making potential, right?
[00:06:40] Skye: Mm.
[00:06:40] Imti: For a lot of my clients, that's where they make their biggest jump-
[00:06:44] Skye: Mm
[00:06:45] Imti: ... is actually when they get promoted into another role, or they move into another company, they'll immediately take their skill set and get a 20% salary increase by-
[00:06:54] Skye: Yep
[00:06:54] Imti: changing jobs.
[00:06:54] Skye: And that's the lever.
[00:06:56] Imti: And that's the lever, right? But if they stayed at their current employer and just grinded harder- Mm ... they wouldn't have actually been rewarded for their effort at all.
[00:07:03] Skye: Yep.
[00:07:03] Pete: Yeah. I mean, that's how I did it. But again, single, didn't have kids, I could do this. Yeah. I worked multiple jobs and kept-
[00:07:09] Imti: Like you had the platform to do that, right?
[00:07:11] Pete: Yeah, a- yeah, and kept getting promoted. that's how I did it. I just kept-
[00:07:13] Skye: Mm
[00:07:13] Pete: ... earning more, but I spent a lot of time working. But I could, 'cause I didn't have kids.
[00:07:17] Imti: Mm.
[00:07:17] Pete: And I didn't have the commitments. I still don't have the commitments. Mm. But
[00:07:20] Imti: Yeah
[00:07:20] Pete: ... but that's the point, though. I was able to do that.
[00:07:23] Imti: Mm.
[00:07:23] Skye: Mm.
[00:07:24] Imti: And what we really wanted to hit on the head is that this lie is about making people feel both ashamed, but like that they can achieve something at the same time. Mm. And it creates this, emotional, paradox inside someone.
[00:07:37] Skye: Mm.
[00:07:37] Imti: And often it's also coming from... you know, we touched on how did they build their brand, how did they build their portfolio, for example.
But taking it even deeper than that, and I'm not gonna name names because the property influencer space is a small space and I don't wanna end up in a bag disappeared somewhere. But there's, in our space, there is people who came from significant wealth, right?
[00:08:01] Skye: Mm.
[00:08:01] Imti: And so their generational starting point was significantly further along.
[00:08:05] Skye: Mm.
[00:08:06] Imti: I know people in the industry who have been gifted startup capital for their businesses and self-funded for the first five years and all that sort of stuff. And that's not to take away from the fact that they've built incredible businesses, but you'll never hear that from them.
[00:08:19] Skye: Yeah, they don't talk about it, whereas Pete talks about his grinding all the time. I love that- Mm ... on his content when he talks about, how he got there, as opposed to, "I've got eight properties. You can do it, too."
[00:08:30] Imti: Mm. Yeah. "
[00:08:30] Skye: No, well, this is what you have to do." But-
[00:08:32] Pete: I don't recommend it. Yeah.
[00:08:33] Imti: Yeah, yeah. It's he-
[00:08:34] Pete: And i, I tell people not to do it
[00:08:35] Skye: Maybe, maybe just chill out a little bit. I go-
[00:08:36] Imti: Yeah.
[00:08:37] Skye: Yeah.
[00:08:37] Imti: Well, that's the thing. You live the lessons, and now you can actually put people in a time machine, basically-
[00:08:42] Pete: Mm
[00:08:42] Imti: ... and go like-
[00:08:43] Pete: There's better ways ...
[00:08:44] Imti: there's better ways.
[00:08:45] Skye: Mm.
[00:08:45] Imti: so instead of I need to work harder or I need to grind harder- What should people ask instead, or how should they frame this whenever they come across it?
[00:08:53] Skye: Work smarter. How do I adjust the levers I can?
[00:08:57] Imti: Mm-hmm. What would you add, Pete?
[00:08:58] Pete: Yeah, I think within your control.
[00:09:00] Skye: Mm.
[00:09:01] Pete: whatever you can actually adjust within your control which doesn't affect your day-to-day too much-
[00:09:05] Imti: Mm-hmm
[00:09:05] Pete: ... then I think that's probably a good way to do it.
[00:09:07] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:08] Pete: Yeah.
[00:09:08] Imti: Yeah. I think for me it would be know where you're at.
[00:09:13] Pete: Mm.
[00:09:13] Imti: And that social media is a tool to put out aspirational lifestyle stuff. And so if you're comparing yourself to the property influencer that had a leg up that has 15 properties, and they're saying, "You just need to work harder" ...
[00:09:27] Skye: Mm ...
[00:09:27] Imti: well From where you are, if you work harder and you, let's say, buy your first investment property, that could be a generational difference in itself.
[00:09:35] Pete: Hmm.
[00:09:35] Imti: And you shouldn't feel any sort of shame-
[00:09:37] Pete: Yeah
[00:09:37] Imti: ... or any sort of way of getting to that outcome, which I think is lost on a lot of people,
[00:09:41] Lie #2
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[00:09:41] Imti: and it actually brings us into a second lie which is more property is better. It's treated like Monopoly, right? Is that you go around the board, you make money, you stack all these little green houses, and you just buy one every single time you get the chance. More doors, more debt, and you'll win the Game of Life. Pete, when can more and this approach backfire, especially for a first-time investor?
[00:10:06] Pete: It comes down to the quality of property you're buying. Yeah. cheap and nasty is cheap and nasty for a reason.
[00:10:11] Skye: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:11] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:11] Pete: And I bought cheap and nasty, and I paid the consequences of the cheap and nasty. When really looking back, and this is where the lessons come from, I didn't need to buy that many. I just had to buy a couple of quality, and I would've been in the exact same position I am now, probably better.
[00:10:25] Imti: Mm.
[00:10:25] Pete: Because I'm thinking about offloading all these properties now.
[00:10:27] Imti: Yeah.
[00:10:27] Pete: I'm gonna have to pay taxes and all this kind of stuff- Yeah ... 'cause they're just a bit of a headache.
[00:10:30] Imti: You're having nightmares of a 15k plumbing bill.
[00:10:32] Pete: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's where more is not always better, but I got caught up on the whole, when I was listening to podcasts, wanting to get to the next level and always wondering why I couldn't get to 20, 30 properties and stuff like that.
So I've definitely felt that as well in the past, and still do to some extent. I think it doesn't ever go away. But, yeah, it can go wrong when you're buying cheap, and that's what a lot of people are doing now. They're buying cheap and nasty.
[00:10:55] Skye: Mm, to have the property count.
[00:10:57] Pete: Yeah, to say, "I've got 10 properties."
[00:10:58] Skye: Yeah.
[00:10:59] Pete: But they're also buying it in cheap and nasty locations as well. So they're not only compromising on asset quality, they're also compromising on location.
[00:11:06] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:08] Pete: And the growth just won't be there.
[00:11:09] Imti: So why do we hear influencers always pushing this, then? Why is their message always "Oh, you need 10, 15, 20 properties"?
[00:11:16] Pete: Well, I'll go from a buyer's agent point of view. Mm. And it's the same as a broker. If I had a client who bought 10 properties- Oh ... that's 10 fees.
[00:11:23] Skye: That's good for you.
[00:11:24] Imti: Yeah.
[00:11:24] Pete: That's, that's six-figure fees, as opposed to 15 grand for one.
[00:11:27] Imti: Yeah.
[00:11:27] Pete: And then from your point of view, Imti, it's 10 sets of loans.
[00:11:30] Imti: For example, trust lending's a great example, right?
[00:11:32] Pete: Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:32] Imti: Although that's kind of had a pin pulled on it recently.
[00:11:35] Pete: Yeah.
[00:11:35] Imti: If someone's looking at buying a $300,000 unit, and the broker can charge a levy for trust lending, 'cause it's more complex, and the client's doing that 10 times over
It's 10 sets of fees, right? There's the financial incentive of it all from the brokers and the buyer's agents and the real estate agents, and just everyone in the space trying to make money.
[00:11:55] Pete: Accountants. The
[00:11:56] Imti: accountants, yeah-
[00:11:57] Pete: Let's throw them in there too
[00:11:57] Imti: as well.
[00:11:58] Pete: Maybe that's how they build their portfolio. But again, that's that's-
[00:12:01] Imti: And bring it back to point one, right?
[00:12:02] Pete: Yeah.
[00:12:02] Imti: Like,that's how they built their portfolio, was buy 10 properties, you'll be great. And then you bought 10 properties, and they bought their 10.
[00:12:08] Pete: Hmm.
[00:12:08] Imti: It went the other way. And the biggest thing there is that you gotta be able to question what's the incentive for the person who's pushing the messaging, right? But it's also the trap of social media. if I was to post content online about, " Oh, yeah, my personal approach is that I have one or two blue-chip properties and that most of my money's in super," that's not sexy.
[00:12:27] Pete: Well, well, you said, "I've got a million dollars in Vanguard."
[00:12:29] Imti: Yeah, yeah. I was saying this to Pete off-air. I was
[00:12:30] Pete: Not that he has that ...
[00:12:31] Imti: someone-
[00:12:32] Pete: I just-
[00:12:32] Imti: Yeah, not that I have a million dollars in Vanguard. But if someone has, 20 properties, they're looked at as financially better off than the person who has, a million dollars in unencumbered shares.
Yeah. And the reality of the situation is the person with the share portfolio goes to bed at night, doesn't wake up to 100 emails from a property manager, and isn't stressing about the $8 million worth of debt that they're strapped to. Skye, from your perspective, I know Pete touched on cheap and nasty, but what's your perspective on, more property is better, considering you're helping landlords with management every single day?
[00:13:06] Skye: Hmm. I was thinking about this before, and it's, I mean, obviously just more complexity, more debt, more money, more problems, as they say.
[00:13:15] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:15] Skye: But thinking about it, with my business, it's me, two other full-time staff members managing that. Like,and obviously an investor would pay, for a property manager if they're listening to us.
but thinking about the work that's involved to manage a certain number of properties-
[00:13:31] Imti: Mm-hmm ...
[00:13:32] Skye: is done by three full-time people. So if you're sitting on 20 properties, it doesn't mean you're hands-off not doing anything. you still need to be active in that.
And I think-
[00:13:41] Imti: Dealing with 20 sets of property managers.
[00:13:42] Skye: Yeah, potentially. but it's around that people think, "Oh, I've got a property manager. I don't have to think about it." Well, actually, no, you do have to be involved. And the more you get, the more this is looking like a full-on business. This is not something you can just sit back and count your cash.
[00:13:56] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:56] Skye: So less can actually be better.
[00:13:59] Imti: That's a really good transition to Less headaches, better. Less properties, better. When you think more is better, it's about more return.
[00:14:08] Skye: Mm.
[00:14:08] Imti: It's not more property, it's not more stuff, it's more return. What gives me the most? Because I know we've touched on it before, but I think it's worth us bringing it up again 'cause we've all had our challenges with this, and Pete, you mentioned it earlier, ego buying.
Like making ego-
[00:14:25] Skye: We've all been guilty of it, right?
[00:14:26] Imti: Mm. Making ego-driven decisions where it's, " Oh, I wanna own 10 properties because I read, Rich Dad Poor Dad"
[00:14:34] Skye: Mm.
[00:14:34] Imti: ... and it was all about, stacking assets. and so then that hijacks a part of your brain, and you're like, "Yeah, yeah", I want status. I wanna feel good about myself", and you go out and you make those ego-driven purchases. I know between the three of us, all of us have at least done it once. Expensive mistake. Looking back, we all look at it and go, " Yeah, wow, really wish I didn't."
[00:14:52] Skye: Mm.
[00:14:53] Pete: Yeah, I was buying stuff for 200-odd grand at one point.
[00:14:55] Imti: Mm.
[00:14:56] Pete: I could have ... I would much rather now bought a quality at four to five hundred grand and just bought the one instead of two.
[00:15:01] Skye: Mm. Mm. Just to say you had two
[00:15:02] Pete: Cause the dollar value is the same thing, and-
[00:15:04] Skye: But how they perform
[00:15:04] Pete: the ... Yeah, and the growth is gonna be a lot better on- the higher quality one.
[00:15:08] Skye: Mm.
[00:15:08] Pete: Yes, less income, but outcome is still the same in the end.
[00:15:11] Skye: Mm.
[00:15:11] Imti: That's where people get trapped in the equity domino strategy of it all, right? The general approach, you buy a property, you build up a little bit of equity, you pull out the equity, you go into the next one, and then you go into the next one, then you go into the next one.
And that can happen really quickly if you're buying cheap. And so then you've got this idea of progress in your head where you're like, "Oh, I've bought another one. I'm building wealth."
[00:15:33] Pete: Mm.
[00:15:33] Imti: Whereas if actually you're making a purchase every two to three years with a better starting quality property and buying one third of the amount of properties, less headaches, more return, right?
[00:15:44] Pete: Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:15:45] Imti: To wrap this point up, Pete, if you're sitting down across from a client and the first thing that they said to you was, " I wanna buy 10 properties because I'm really hyped up and that's how I'm gonna achieve my goal, how would you guide them on picking right instead of picking more?
[00:16:02] Pete: so that used to happen a lot at the start of the business because when I started, I was keen just to talk to anyone. Now I'm very selective in terms of who I talk to as potential clients, and to be quite blunt, I don't wanna deal with anyone who wants to do that. 'Cause this was what I was like-
[00:16:17] Imti: Mm ...
[00:16:18] Pete: five, six years ago, I wanted to do that, too, and that's where the ego comes into it. So if you wanna build that 10-property portfolio and someone sits in front of me to go through it, I really don't have a lot to say. Mm-hmm. I'll obviously try and explain what my lessons have been and that we should be going for quality. Instead of buying 10, let's just try and maybe bring that back to three or four, but let's start with a higher quality property first, see if you like it, because you actually have to live it a little bit.
[00:16:43] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:44] Pete: I didn't realise it until really only a couple of years ago when you reflect on it, that the approach of buying as many as I could was the incorrect approach.
But the ego at the time, like, no one could tell me otherwise.
[00:16:56] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:57] Pete: And that's how most people are now, too. if that's what they wanna do, egotistically, that's what they're going to do one way or another. So it's just about trying to bring 'em back talking about my experience, trying to get them into one quality, and just seeing if they even like the thing. Because a lot of people will go out and buy four or five properties within the space of two years, and they hate property investing.
[00:17:16] Skye: Mm.
[00:17:17] Pete: And what a waste of time that is. Yeah. When you factor in stamp duty and that, then they'll just go and sell them a couple of years later for a loss.
[00:17:22] Imti: Mm-hmm. Well, that actually reminds me of a conversation that I had with a client couple weeks ago. They made 200 grand in their first 18 months, and to them, it was an amazing return.
[00:17:32] Pete: Which it is.
[00:17:33] Imti: Yeah, which it is.
[00:17:33] Pete: It is, yeah.
[00:17:33] Imti: To be fair, I don't wanna
[00:17:35] Pete: Yeah
[00:17:35] Imti: ... say that 200 grand is nothing. 200 grand is life-changing.
[00:17:37] Pete: But, but also it's not the norm. This is where people are-
[00:17:40] Imti: Yes.
[00:17:40] Pete: Yeah.
[00:17:41] Imti: So the first lever of that is that it wasn't the norm. They knew that, which was why they actually wanted to get out. They were like, "We've made our money, we wanna get out." And the difficult thing for them to wrap their head around until we went through the numbers of it all was that they actually enjoyed property investing, and they wanted to buy more, right?
More was the driver, but they wanted to just adjust their cashflow position temporarily. When we did the numbers with them, we're like, "Okay, you paid stamp duty on this property, you paid a buyer's agent for this property, and then you want to buy another one later when you re-enter the market. The time that you're out of the market, you're gonna lose that growth, but also you're 100 grand in the hole on fees from day one."
And once that was put in front of them, in my experience, that's the only way to get someone through the more, and I'll buy later, and I'll accumulate later in life, is to your point, Pete. They need to live it because these guys were in the situation, and then they've gotta see the numbers on paper, and then even then they might still change their mind.
[00:18:39] Pete: Yeah.
[00:18:40] Imti: Because some people are just fixed, and they're just gonna be like, "I need 10 or 15 properties". And the reason why we wanted to talk about this lie is for the person who sees that online and just feels demotivated by it, and feels like they can't change their situation because they don't have the capacity to buy 15 properties because they don't have a platform.
[00:19:02] Lie #3
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[00:19:02] Imti: That brings us to lie three. Everyone can do it and should do it. You'll see this in the property influencer space all the time, everyone'll make money, property always performs, you just need to buy more, you just need to be brave, and everything will be okay.
Pete, you're making a face, which is why I know I'm gonna get a pretty good opinion out of you. Why do people think property investing is bulletproof?
[00:19:23] Pete: Ah, 'cause look, over time you look at graphs of property, and it's gone up by what?
[00:19:26] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:27] Pete: 7% every year, long-term averages.
[00:19:29] Imti: Yeah.
[00:19:29] Pete: So people just think you can't lose.
[00:19:31] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:31] Pete: Cause as a whole, the property market has increased by that - and it has, it has doubled every, well, the old saying is it doubles every 10.
[00:19:38] Imti: Yeah.
[00:19:38] Pete: Which-
[00:19:38] Imti: Realistically, 12 to 15. But yeah.
[00:19:40] Pete: Yeah, yeah. That's right, yeah. And that's what people pick on, right?
[00:19:42] Imti: Yeah.
[00:19:42] Pete: They'll pick the good stuff. But what people don't realise is, and particularly the last five years-
[00:19:46] Imti: Mm
[00:19:46] Pete: ... it has not been a normal market.
[00:19:48] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:48] Pete: So why do people think, property investing is bulletproof is because for the last five years most markets have doubled.
[00:19:55] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:55] Pete: Literally, and that's crazy 'cause that's just out of the norm.
So that's, yeah, people just think it will never fail.
[00:20:01] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:01] Pete: Which is so far from the truth.
[00:20:02] Imti: Something you touched on earlier,is really important here, is that most people who grew up let's say 20, 30, 40 years ago, more people were buying property and more people made wealth through property, right?
[00:20:13] Skye: Mm.
[00:20:13] Imti: Mm. And to that point also, it was accidental.
[00:20:16] Skye: Yeah. That's 100%. Because, we saw our parents-
[00:20:20] Imti: Mm-hmm
[00:20:21] Skye: ... let's talk about millennials.
[00:20:22] Imti: Yeah.
[00:20:22] Skye: We saw our parents do the same thing, but over a longer period of time.
[00:20:25] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:26] Skye: because as you say, the market's different. Whereas if you look at the 20-year-olds now, all they're seeing is the end result.
[00:20:32] Imti: Yeah.
[00:20:32] Skye: They're not seeing that change the generations.
[00:20:35] Imti: Well, that's the thing, right? So there's two ends of the spectrum. You've got the millennials looking at the boomers going, "You guys are sitting on monster estates and you're gonna pass down generational wealth."
[00:20:45] Skye: Mm.
[00:20:45] Imti: And then we've got a bull market the last five years where it's done that.
[00:20:48] Skye: Mm.
[00:20:49] Imti: And so it's given everyone this really high false sense of security- Mm ... about property investing just not being able to go wrong. And there could be nothing further from the truth, right?
[00:20:59] Pete: Mm.
[00:20:59] Imti: We've all experienced people who have lost 100, $150,000 from day one because they made a bad decision and fell for a sales pitch.
[00:21:06] Pete: Yeah.
[00:21:07] Skye: Yeah. And the '80s wasn't a fun time. There were lots of people who lost money in that period.
[00:21:11] Imti: Mm-hmm. We're also economically in, a uncertain time, right? World's doing world things.
Tax changes being rolled out like crazy. We're seeing it every day. consumer confidence is really, really low.
[00:21:22] Pete: There is none.
[00:21:22] Imti: People are nervous. There is none.
[00:21:22] Skye: But it's, it's been that way since COVID, right?
[00:21:24] Imti: and-
[00:21:24] Skye: That was the world thing that-
[00:21:25] Imti: Mm ...
[00:21:25] Skye: continued more world things.
[00:21:27] Imti: And the fact that this is just put to everyone as a given truth is just so, so dangerous. People make life-changing and, life-killing decisions based on what they see online, and everyone can do it and should do it is just, the one that really, really grinds my gears. When we're talking about that person, though, who isn't a good fit for property investing?
[00:21:48] Pete: Those that are red-lining.
[00:21:49] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:51] Pete: So what I mean by redlining is they're living, I don't wanna say paycheck to paycheck, but there's no emergency fund.
[00:21:56] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:57] Pete: depends on th- their life stage as well.
Maybe they're looking to transition into another job, or maybe they're looking to take a bit of a risk and not have an income for a while. I, I see people come to me and they say all these things, and they're still interested in buying property.
[00:22:09] Imti: The interesting thing there is that, I'm not sure if you guys have seen this as well, is that often it's not the people who are middle income.
[00:22:15] Pete: Yeah.
[00:22:15] Imti: It's people who are high or super high income-
[00:22:17] Pete: Yep
[00:22:18] Imti: ... that actually live on the red line a lot of the time.
[00:22:19] Pete: They do.
[00:22:20] Skye: Mm.
[00:22:20] Pete: Yeah. And then they're, like, wanting to buy property, and it's like they're redlining on quite good money.
[00:22:25] Imti: Mm.
[00:22:25] Pete: But property costs money.
[00:22:27] Skye: Mm.
[00:22:27] Pete: And if you're thinking about doing all these adventures and you're not getting an income
But often people think, property is self-sustaining as well.
[00:22:33] Skye: Yes.
[00:22:34] Pete: Mm. That's ... Yeah.
[00:22:34] Skye: That is a whole other lie-
[00:22:35] Pete: Mm
[00:22:36] Skye: ... for another day. that, yeah, that they're unprepared.
[00:22:39] Pete: Yeah.
[00:22:39] Skye: If they're redlining, they're unprepared for what the cost can be. They can be 20k for a new bathroom.
[00:22:44] Imti: Mm.
[00:22:44] Skye: And if you're redlining, you're in-
[00:22:46] Imti: Mm
[00:22:46] Skye: panic stations.
[00:22:47] Imti: Yeah. To bring it to the previous point, you're selling and you're losing 100 grand's worth of fees to exit and re-enter the market later on, right?
[00:22:53] Skye: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Pete: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Skye: Because they go, "Oh, I haven't got 20k for a bathroom. Let's sell." Well, you started off worse than when you began.
[00:22:58] Imti: Mm. Mm-hmm. The other side of that is also that there's people who have really, really good financial discipline, with savings in the bank, that property also isn't a really good fit for.
And those people would be people who don't have a high tolerance to debt.
[00:23:11] Skye: Mm.
[00:23:11] Imti: Because the power of property is in leverage.
[00:23:14] Pete: Mm.
[00:23:14] Imti: And if you can't stomach having a mortgage and that hanging over your head, forcing yourself to invest in property-
[00:23:22] Pete: Mm
[00:23:22] Imti: ... you'll probably end up selling anyway because you're stressing out.
[00:23:25] Skye: Mm.
[00:23:25] Pete: Yeah.
[00:23:25] Imti: And-
[00:23:26] Skye: You'll sell too soon.
[00:23:27] Imti: Yeah. You'll sell too soon. You won't actually realise the real return which comes in year 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. And you'll sell out when you've made the 200 grand on paper, but it ends up being 40 grand once everything's said and done.
[00:23:41] Skye: Mm.
[00:23:41] Imti: For me personally, the reason why
I was the other side of the spectrum. Property worked for me because I didn't have the discipline to invest in shares.
[00:23:48] Pete: Mm.
[00:23:48] Imti: So in a weird reversal-
[00:23:50] Skye: Oh, your forced savings ...
[00:23:52] Imti: my forced savings was the fact that I had a debt strapped to me, and I knew that I'd never miss that repayment.
[00:23:58] Skye: Mm.
[00:23:58] Imti: Whereas if I had that money in my hands- Mm I would've been out buying another car.
[00:24:03] Pete: Yeah.
[00:24:03] Skye: Yeah.
[00:24:04] Imti: Because that was my super expensive habit when I was young and dumb.
[00:24:07] Skye: And there's an avatar of people who feel very comfortable having that cash in the bank-
[00:24:11] Imti: Mm-hmm
[00:24:12] Skye: ... versus leveraging it.
[00:24:13] Imti: Exactly.
[00:24:14] Skye: Those people should not invest in property-
[00:24:16] Imti: No
[00:24:16] Skye: ... 'cause that cash will get eaten into.
[00:24:17] Pete: I also think it's the people who are, not comfortable with debt, but those that love debt-
[00:24:22] Imti: Yes
[00:24:22] Pete: ... and they don't know how to manage their money.
[00:24:24] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:24] Pete: Do you know what I mean? They'll just, find a way to finance everything.
[00:24:26] Imti: Yeah. The bank said yes, so I'll just say yes.
[00:24:28] Pete: Yeah. Credit card debts and everything. They, don't care what percentage or interest rate they're paying, they just want their hands on the money.
[00:24:33] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:34] Pete: And it's often not to use it. It's non-productive debt.
[00:24:36] Imti: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Pete: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Imti: And that's definitely the other end of the spectrum.
[00:24:40] Skye: Sorry, you guys just described me for the last 15 years.
That's why I'm laughing. I know better now, but-
[00:24:45] Imti: Mm.
[00:24:45] Skye: my early journey.
[00:24:46] Pete: Mm.
[00:24:47] Skye: Oof, gosh. All of those things.
[00:24:49] Imti: And that's the thing, right? we're not saying this stuff from a pedestal. we all have battle scars, and have all made many, many, many mistakes during this journey. That's why we did this in the first place, right?
[00:24:59] Pete: Mm.
[00:24:59] Imti: Was that we didn't wanna be sitting on the top of a hill talking down to people. We did wanna be vulnerable and talk about our mistakes and the things that we messed up, because that's what helps us educate the listener, and then if anyone does end up working with us, that's the experience that they get through and through.
that's what they come to expect. I know that it's similar for you guys, but clients will book in a chat with me to proverbially be told to eat their vegetables. It's not a-
[00:25:23] Skye: Mm.
[00:25:24] Imti: It's not "Let's go out on the weekend." It's like, "We're at a massive crossroads, and we need you to just tell us if we're being dumb."
[00:25:29] Skye: I think you've had that conversation with both of us now.
[00:25:32] Imti: Yeah. And to that point, it's just about that everyone can do it and should do it. We probably all falsely believed that at a point.
[00:25:40] Pete: Yeah.
[00:25:40] Imti: And we've had to break through that belief ourselves to be on the other side of it.
[00:25:44] Skye: Mm.
[00:25:45] Imti: The only other thing that I would add to who shouldn't do it is if you don't have a long-term time horizon.
[00:25:51] Pete: Mm.
[00:25:51] Imti: If you're getting into it to make quick money in 12 to 24 months, property's not for you. Just don't do it. Because once you subtract all the fees, all the interest, all that sorta stuff, you'll make a paper profit, but you won't make a bank profit.
[00:26:04] Skye: You should go to the casino. It would be less risky.
[00:26:07] Imti: Chuck it on red. Yep. 'cause I mean, in that situation, the worst you walk out with is zero. It's 50, 50, right? You don't walk out with negative.
[00:26:12] Skye: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:13] Imti: in terms of someone who does wanna build wealth, but property isn't for them, I don't wanna go on too much of a side tangent, but I think it's important to bring this up.
What alternatives would there be?
[00:26:23] Pete: I'd be just looking at the standard ETFs.
[00:26:25] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:26] Pete: I wouldn't be going out and trying to pick shares or anything like that. I'd just be going into ETFs.
[00:26:30] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:30] Pete: Wouldn't keep the money in the bank because I think it's too easily accessible.
[00:26:34] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:34] Skye: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:35] Pete: Even if it's term deposits and you can only grab it every six or 12 months or whatever it is.
[00:26:38] Skye: It's accessible.
[00:26:39] Pete: I think once it's in ETFs and shares, there's that blocker that, hey, I can't access it.
[00:26:43] Imti: I don't wanna look at it.
[00:26:44] Pete: Yeah, yeah. But you shouldn't be looking at it as well.
[00:26:46] Imti: Yes.
[00:26:46] Pete: 'Cause that's the other side of it. If you've got-
[00:26:48] Imti: Don't have the app on your phone.
[00:26:49] Pete: Yeah, yeah.
'Cause it takes time. It's like any- anything, like property two shares takes time. Mm-hmm. But it's definitely the easier route.
[00:26:55] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:55] Pete: And I think that that's how I'd approach it.
[00:26:57] Imti: 100%. And on the ETF front, Skye, you touched on it earlier, but what was your alternative? ' Cause you decided that you wanted to make a life change and you couldn't invest in more property.
[00:27:08] Skye: Mm.
[00:27:08] Imti: So what did you do?
[00:27:09] Skye: Started a business.
[00:27:11] Pete: Self-development, yeah.
[00:27:12] Skye: It's not, it's not for the weak at heart. But you don't have to start, a whole business, you could still do a little side hustle. you could do something else. But, it was the only way forward for me to change my financial future
[00:27:23] Pete: It's upskilling too, that's also an option yeah.
Yeah. You've had to constantly upskill even though you built the business, but you've had to continually upskill through that process too.
[00:27:31] Skye: Yeah, 100%.
[00:27:32] Pete: Yeah.
[00:27:32] Skye: I was in a high level corporate role-
[00:27:34] Pete: Mm
[00:27:34] Skye: ... before I launched the business again. So, I'd at the same time, still felt like a ceiling.
[00:27:38] Imti: Mm. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:39] Skye: and that it wasn't much further that I could go and increase the income.
[00:27:43] Imti: Yeah. that's the key fork in the sand, if you are on a relatively fixed income, PAYG employment, like 80 to 90% of people, you have to take an alternative route if you want those circumstances to change.
[00:27:54] Skye: Mm.
[00:27:54] Imti: Your expenses can only go down to zero, they can't go below zero.
[00:27:57] Skye: Mm.
[00:27:58] Imti: And so even if you're penny pinching as much as humanly possible-
[00:28:01] Skye: Mm
[00:28:01] Imti: ... and this is where the, whole hustle culture grind and all that shit kinda comes into it, right? Is that-
[00:28:06] Skye: Mm
[00:28:06] Imti: ... you can only take your expenses to zero.
Your income can move up a little bit, and there's gonna be a natural ceiling to what you can do-
[00:28:14] Skye: Mm
[00:28:14] Imti: ... and achieve, and that's everyone in life. So then it's what's the route that allows you to do that?
[00:28:18] Skye: Mm.
And I felt like I'd reached the ceiling.
[00:28:20] Imti: Mm.
[00:28:20] Skye: the only avenue was to either get a side hustle or start a business.
[00:28:25] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:25] Skye: that's the only option.
[00:28:26] Imti: So. And that's probably an example of, the healthier grind that you can sustain, right? Because if you couldn't sustain it, you wouldn't have started the business, full stop.
[00:28:34] Skye: Yeah.
[00:28:34] Imti: You knew that there would be stretch in what you were doing-
[00:28:37] Skye: Yeah ...
[00:28:37] Imti: but if it involved sacrificing things that were more important to you, e.g. time with your boys, you wouldn't-
[00:28:43] Skye: No ...
[00:28:44] Imti: do it, right?
[00:28:44] Skye: Yeah.
[00:28:45] Imti: Whereas, the hustle bros online all have you believe that you just ship your kids off for five years, you live in a cardboard box, and you don't talk to anyone, and-
[00:28:53] Pete: Work till you- ...
[00:28:53] Imti: change your life that way. Yeah.
[00:28:55] Pete: And work till you're dead, basically.
[00:28:55] Imti: Yeah, work till you're dead.
[00:28:56] Pete: Yeah.
[00:28:56] Imti: Yeah.
[00:28:56] Pete: Yeah.
[00:28:57] Imti: which is such an unhealthy message to put forward.
[00:29:00] Skye: Yeah. I mean, I could do that, but-
[00:29:02] Imti: You wouldn't want to ...
[00:29:02] Skye: then what's the point?
[00:29:03] Imti: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, at that point you're like, "Who, am I building all this for? Everyone's left."
[00:29:06] Skye: Correct. Yeah.
[00:29:06] Imti: And I think philosophically, that's the important thing to remember, right? Why are you investing? for most people it's, "I'm investing 'cause I wanna change my situation." What do you wanna change it to?
what's the end point? We did an episode before this where we dived into Pete's own journey, and that end point either constantly changing or not being fixed actually dictated a lot of his decision-making. And once you lock that in, you kinda realise, okay, like this is enough. once I hit this point, I'm good.
I don't want anything more than that. But until you define that point, it doesn't really exist. When it comes down to everyone can do it and should do it, when it comes down to property, a lot of people can actually hit the point that they would be happy with not doing property and quicker, whether it be through, following a passion and starting a business, or just a simple ETF portfolio and optimising the superannuation. Mm. And they'd get where they wanna go. Realistically though, Pete, do you think someone can actually come to this conclusion themselves? do you think anyone is self-aware enough to be like, " I need to pull these levers and make these changes and make these decisions, but not make those decisions"?
[00:30:06] Pete: No. and I lost myself the last couple of months going through that whole process we talked about in the previous episode, is if you're gonna take advice from someone, make sure they've done the thing that you're trying to do.
[00:30:14] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:15] Pete: Because then you're gonna be able to get to where you wanna get to quicker by learning from their mistakes, but you're not gonna learn anything until you actually do it. So yeah, the cheat code is to try to find people who have done it.
[00:30:24] Imti: Mm-hmm. when we're looking at that influencer space, it's don't listen to a property developer's advice on ETFs.
[00:30:30] Pete: Yep.
[00:30:31] Imti: Don't listen to a mortgage broker's opinion on tax and trust structures for your generational wealth, or a buyer's agent's opinion about buying a company.
Because everyone's in their own siloed profession for a reason, and so you might have to have multiple conversations to land where you need to land. But to your point, Pete, you also just wanna make sure you're having a conversation with someone who's done the thing you have.
[00:30:54] Pete: Mm. Or that you want to do.
[00:30:56] Imti: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:56] Pete: Yeah.
[00:30:56] Imti: And that's probably a really good place to just wrap us up. These lies, every day, they're on our feeds every single day. And for someone who's in the industry, I actually spend less time on my phone because the amount of times I just open my phone, I cringe, I get cranky, I feel off about it, and I just throw my phone, in the bin for, like, a few hours.
That is really, really important to acknowledge is that as people in the industry, this stuff gets to us.
[00:31:24] Pete: I've blocked my phone, I've told you.
[00:31:25] Imti: Yeah.
[00:31:25] Pete: my socials are blocked, only f- to get on for business. That's it. I don't wanna look at anyone else.
[00:31:30] Imti: Mm-hmm. '
[00:31:30] Pete: Cause annoys me as well.
[00:31:31] Imti: Yeah. For anyone listening, we hope that you feel like we're actually seeing what you're going through day to day in terms of this algorithmic stuff that's going on, and that you understand that you don't just need to grind harder. More property isn't always better, and not everyone should do it.
And the only way that you're gonna get to that answer is by plugging into people who aren't trying to sell you something.