Strength at Any Age: Busting Fitness Myths and Building Confidence with Jennifer Kirsch

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This week on the podcast Mikki speaks to Jen Kirsch, a coach and fitness expert with over 30 years of experience empowering women over 50 to unlock their strength and vitality. Jen has dedicated her career to breaking down myths about fitness for older women and helping them build confidence, resilience, and a sustainable approach to health.

In this conversation, they explore the most persistent misconceptions about fitness for women in this age group, delve into the underrated benefits of strength training, and uncover practical strategies for balancing fitness with life’s many demands. Jen will also share her insights on overcoming fears around injury, managing hormonal and metabolic changes, and staying motivated through setbacks.

Whether you’re new to strength training or a seasoned pro, this episode is packed with actionable advice to inspire you to embrace your best, strongest self at any age.

Jennifer Kirsch is a certified personal trainer, health coach, and yoga instructor with over 25 years of experience in the fitness industry. Specialising in helping women over 40 lose fat, build lean muscle, and achieve optimal health, she believes in the transformative power of fitness to enhance both physical appearance and overall well-being. Jen's comprehensive approach integrates exercise, nutrition, and mindfulness to promote a vibrant and balanced life. Her credentials include certifications from the American Council on Exercise as a Personal Trainer, Health Coach, and Fitness Nutrition Specialist, as well as a Precision Nutrition Level 1 Coach certification. Through personalised coaching, Jen empowers her clients to develop sustainable lifestyle habits that lead to long-term health and vitality.

https://www.jenniferkirschfitness.com/

Jen https://www.instagram.com/jenniferkirschfitness/?hl=en

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Creators & Guests

Host

Mikki Williden

What is Mikkipedia?

Mikkipedia is an exploration in all things health, well being, fitness, food and nutrition. I sit down with scientists, doctors, professors, practitioners and people who have a wealth of experience and have a conversation that takes a deep dive into their area of expertise. I love translating science into a language that people understand, so while some of the conversations will be pretty in-depth, you will come away with some practical tips that can be instigated into your everyday life. I hope you enjoy the show!

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you

00:03
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Jennifer Kirsch. She's a coach and fitness expert over 30 years of experience, empowering women over 50 to unlock their strength and vitality. Jim has dedicated her career to breaking down myths about fitness for women in their mid-age and helping them build confidence, resilience, and a sustainable approach to health. In this conversation.

00:32
Jen and I explore the most persistent misconceptions about fitness for women in this age group. We delve into the underrated benefits of strength training and uncover practical strategies for balancing fitness with life's many demands. And particularly there are plenty of these as we get older. Jen also shares her insights on overcoming fears around injury, managing hormonal and metabolic changes, and staying motivated through setbacks. So

00:59
Whether you're new to strength training or a seasoned pro, this episode is packed with actionable advice to inspire you to embrace your best, strongest self at any age. And Jen is a good friend of mine and colleague as part of my business group. And I've really learned a lot from her over the last couple of years. And I know you're really gonna love this conversation. So for those of you unfamiliar, Jennifer Kirsch is a certified personal trainer.

01:26
health coach and yoga instructor with over 25 years of experience in the fitness industry. Specializing in helping women over 50 lose fat, build lean muscle and achieve optimal health, she believes in the transformative power of fitness to enhance both physical appearance and overall well-being. Jen's comprehensive approach integrates exercise, nutrition and mindfulness to promote a vibrant and balanced life. Her credentials include certifications from the American Council of Health and Human Services.

01:55
on exercise as a personal trainer, health coach and fitness nutrition specialist, as well as a precision nutrition level one coach certification. Through personalized coaching, Jen empowers her clients to develop sustainable lifestyle habits that lead to long-term health and vitality. And I've included links to both Jen's website, where there is a ton of free resources that people can download, and also her Instagram, where she shares her coaching insights.

02:23
and really practical information that you can learn from every day. Before we get to the interview though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform that increases the visibility of Micopedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts that people could listen to. And it gives them the opportunity to listen to the experts that I have on this show like Jen Kirsch. Alright team, enjoy this conversation.

02:56
Hi Jen, great to talk to you. Thanks so much for taking the time this morning. You're welcome. I'm excited that you asked me. Ah well, who asked what I asked when I was wanting a great conversation about fitness for women over 50. I'm sure you have women that are not 50 who you assist but I know that is definitely sort of your, or is your area of expertise. It is, it is. And I do have some clients, yes, that are still in their 40s but...

03:24
Right now, from what I understand, 40s up until 80, 81. 80, 81. See, that is like so inspirational for me. I want to be doing stuff when I'm 81. You and me both, and I have seen it firsthand. I think more so when I was in the studio, a lot of my clients, I started training in a small, more boutique studio, local to me in about 2007. And I started with a lot of people who back in those years were in their late 20s.

03:54
you know, in the late fifties, early sixties. And now I've seen, you know, what the effects of regular training can do for your lifestyle, not just, not with, not just simply your physical capabilities, but also just how these people do life. I think that there is a, you know, a youthful spirit about people who are still moving their bodies, in challenging ways. It makes them more, you know, they have, I think it just encourages them to have more of a zest for life. You know, they're not talking about, you know,

04:23
necessarily chasing after weight loss or any aesthetic goals are like, no, I just want to be fit and functional and go hiking with my grandkids and go skiing and all of these things. So all that to say, yes, a big range. But for the most part, my average, I would say the majority of my clients in my membership and day to day are 50s and 60s. Yeah. I think that's so amazing. And I see that all of the time with people I talk to about exercise. And obviously, nutrition is my sort of major background.

04:53
in my minor or my other degree was physical education. I was a personal trainer for a short period of time and an aerobics instructor as well, like step. Loved doing step. I love step two. I keep waiting for it to come back. Same. That'll be amazing. But you know, like, and I truly, obviously diet is super important, but I truly think transformational, what is truly transformational is getting active. It just builds a confidence that

05:22
women wouldn't otherwise have. I agree with you. I mean, and I think, you know, sometimes I know that you're, you know, you are an endurance athlete and you're very involved in that community. And I was for a while as well when I was younger. And, you know, I've started, I had some orthopedic issues and stuff. And so for me, it's more like I sort of changed my lens at which how I was being physically active, but I'm still physically active. It just looks different. So instead of, you know, instead of trail running, I'm hiking.

05:49
So it's still, you know, that love for being outside, that love of movement, love step or fix, you know, give me anything where I'm moving and I'm good. But I do, I do agree with you. I think that when, I think it really comes down to what helps people stay consistent either through, you know, injury or busy seasons of life is a very clear identity about who they are. Like I think they just, one thing I've noticed, they just identify as the kind of person that is always going to be

06:18
involved in some sort of activity and it's not even based on like what the experts are saying. They're just like, I just know that, you know, I just need to be moving. And whether that is weightlifting, yoga, hiking, whatever, you know, they just know that this is something that you do and it is incredibly empowering and on all levels, all levels. Do they always come to you with that frame of mind, Jean, or is it something that you've noticed that they...

06:45
that grows over time. Because I think a lot of people who are new to activity or who haven't, or are not active, and let's face it, like half of the population is not active, like I think that they might hear this and go, well, that's okay for them because that's just how they're built or that is, you know, they're different from me. Like, what is your experience and if that can be something that is learned?

07:09
I think it is something that can be learned. I mean, listen, it may not be innate and it may take practice and a lot of trial and error. And I think for somebody like that, who really does want a change, that's where coaching really comes in handy. And also being in it, putting yourself in an environment, whether online or in person, it helps support that. Like if you're trying to go it alone, chances are you will not, it will be harder for you. You end that story of, yes, it's easy for them, then yeah, because you're gonna still,

07:39
you have nothing to reflect the possibilities, right? But I do think, you know, over the years in the gym, I had clients come to me who had never really had any physical fitness experience at all. So we were really starting from a ground level. But then I have people that were, you know, former athletes, and they're just like, Hey, I'm in a new seasons of life. I can't, you know, train on the field like I did three hours a day. Now I need something like a little bit more like the most bang for my buck in 45 minutes or an hour.

08:06
So I've worked with all types, but I think right now, my sweet spot, especially working 100% online now is, the women that are coming to me, I think for the most part, are health conscious enough that they know they wanna take their health seriously, and they know that strength training really should be a part of that. And they also know that they might struggle with a little bit of accountability and motivation. So having a coach online on the other end that is teaching basically a group format, that's how I deliver my programs, my main program.

08:36
And they love that because they're like, oh, I feel like I'm with you. And hearing your stories and hearing you motivate us through your spoken word is what I need to help me to keep showing up. Like I hear that again and again from them. And that's just something honestly, like I started doing during the pandemic. I had my normal clients who were all personal training clients. I just started put them into groups and ran it via Zoom and then turn it into a full program, which services hundreds of people now, which is pretty wild.

09:04
I totally agree, it is so wild. And I want to pick up on that accountability piece, because I feel this is where some people struggle, in that they are so successful. And you might see this a bit given the age that you sort of work with, is that you have women that are at the pinnacle of their careers, and they've raised families, and they are successful in so many areas of their lives, but for whatever reason, they haven't managed

09:34
the activity aspect of it to the same degree. And they always feel like a failure in that they shouldn't, quote unquote, need someone to help them. Like that accountability piece is almost seen as a failure. Like what would you say to someone like that? You know, I think, well, listen, I think high achievers have high standards for themselves across the board. So you do see a lot of perfectionist type of tendencies with that, right? I think you and I could probably identify with that too also, right?

10:03
Like, and I think, but I think once I will often say to my clients, like, you know yourself better than anybody else. And if you know that the way for you to be successful is to have the appointment on the calendar or join the program, then it really is up to you to do it. No one else can do that for you. I like, I like, I also say to my clients that they are my accountability because even though I identify as an active person and I'm a coach and I'm a trainer, I don't always feel like doing it.

10:31
So I built, I know to build in my own account, Billy, but back into people who, you know, our original question was, you know, what do you do with somebody who feels like they have every other aspect of their life together, but the fitness piece not. But it's like, keep in mind for them to have gotten too high levels career wise or managing a family or everything, some things have maybe had to go by the wayside and that's okay. But getting yourself stuck and beating yourself up on that.

10:58
is not the answer. It's knowing and recognizing that like, yeah, I probably could use some help for this. I may not need this help forever. Or maybe I will need some form of it. I think this is why group training is so powerful for people because it's, you know, it's from a financial investments perspective, it's certainly a way more reasonable than, you know, just hiring a trainer. Yeah, completely. Completely. And you know, like, and I like, you know, I think

11:25
being accountable to someone is just keeping you on task, keeping you on track. And it's the group itself is, or the group or the trainer or whoever it is that you're working with. I mean, they're, you know, that's gone. Well, Meg, you know what? I think I'd dovetail off of this and just tell your listeners how you and I know each other. We share a business coach. And I think part of, we were talking about this before we got on, is that part of just being in the room, being in the culture of the discussions that you're having with people who have similar goals.

11:54
is sometimes just what you need. Like we can say, wow, I think we know all we need to do to keep our businesses running as efficient as possible. But the truth is, we need motivation too. So it's up to us to put ourselves environments where the conversation is such that it's supporting our end goal. And there might be lots of repetition, right? So when you hear personal trainers and nutrition coaches, you know, my clients hear me talk about strength training, yours, you're talking about protein. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear it again and again.

12:21
but it's being in the environment and the little pieces that you pick up along the way, these little kernels that you're like, something clicks and it, you're just like, yeah. Suddenly it becomes easier, but I don't know. My clients have said that to me over the years. They're like, yeah, it was just, you know, being, hearing you describe these things, these ideas, these philosophies over and over again, even just in generalizations, finally after, you know.

12:46
Sometimes it's like really sunk in, you know, it took that long, but I'm like, hey, you know, okay, sometimes you need to hear it a hundred times for it to sink in, but, and that's okay. Yeah, completely. So Jen, thinking about your coaching then, like, are there any myths about fitness that women have, who you work with, that you'll continue to surprise you like, oh my gosh, people still believe this, you know, because sometimes

13:15
you know, when you're an expert, you're in this little bubble, you just think, everyone knows what I know. So I have to remind myself. So I kind of just smiled there. I think, you know, my own favorite, like muscle, you know, we want to turn the fat to muscle or we want to tone up. It's like they're different mechanisms, you know, they're different substrates in your body. They don't work that way. I think I'm always having that conversation. You know, the other one too, like, and I'm sure you can appreciate this as a nutrition coach, like,

13:43
I always try to simplify how I explain this, but when I have a lot of clients that do have weight loss goals. Now, generally speaking, the clients that come to me don't have massive weight loss goals. We're not, they're more, I would say more in the 15 to 25 pound range. There are typically women who have sort of sailed through up into midlife and then they hit menopause and they're like, what happened to my body?

14:06
And everything I used to do is not working anymore. And I always joke, I'm like, well, what you were doing before wasn't necessarily health supporting. It might have kept you a certain size. So now you really do have to learn to really take care of your body. And, well, we can't, we can't argue that there is a hormonal component to how the body stores weight in midlife. But what we can do is really like look into certain habits. So I do still see a lot of women going back into that massive calorie counting, cutting out whole food groups.

14:36
You know, I can't have bread. I can't have this. I can't have that. It's like, the truth is one of the best, and I still stand by this, one of the best gifts you can give yourself is learn to eat, to support the body you have now. And even, and even in PS, and even if you have like a 25, 30 pound weight loss goal, most of the time, the reason why that happens is because you didn't understand how to eat, to maintain your body weight to begin with.

15:02
So now it's like, it's got this level of layer of desperation to it. Like I want it off as soon as possible. No human beings, when they're ready to change, they're ready to go all in. But like sometimes it really does take slowing down and looking at. So back to your point about like, what's a common misconception, you know, that weight loss should be fast, that you should inherently know how to do this. I always say, like, you aren't, you don't pop out of the womb understanding nutrition.

15:28
you really are at the mercy of your family of origin and your culture. And then all of those messages that come in and all it takes, all it takes is one positive experience where I think with like with weight loss that you have in your mind, like, that's the thing I always need to do. Like I have good luck with keto and then that must be what I got to do. I just got to keto harder or, you know, um, or people who, an exercise piece are like, Oh, well, I started running and I lost eight pounds. I'm like,

15:57
I just need to run more. I'm like, possibly, but at some point in metabolism is going to put the brakes on you. Yeah. It's going to get efficient. Yeah. No, for sure. And it is, it is funny because I do also see clients, you know, they're like, they are absolutely like even people in my program now and they're like, Oh, this is amazing. I'm eating black beans for the first time and forever. And I love them. But what would I substitute out when I'm finished this plan? Because I eat keto, you know? And I'm like, so

16:26
This is more something that I want you to think about is some change, you know, like even though the evidence is in front of them that they can make progress doing something a different way, but we've just got such ingrained beliefs, I think, about what works and what doesn't, right? Yeah. And, you know, admittedly, I still, on a personal note, you know, I sometimes kind of have to, this is the mindfulness at play because sometimes I will catch myself like, and that's so funny that I still catch those thoughts coming in of like,

16:54
the old 1980s, 1990s dieting thoughts like, well, I have enough education and life experience now coaching and professional experience to indicate to me otherwise. But yet I know that those those old messages are still there. And so I was thinking like in the context of my clients, like, yeah, so they have that old information too. And so it's going to take some time to dismantle that. And also for them to give themselves the opportunity to prove that something else can be also true. Yeah.

17:22
Meaning like back in the case of your client with the black beans, like we can also prove to a client who has been successful on keto that they could possibly be successful in other ways as well. Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point, Jen. So when it comes to strength training, what are three non-negotiable habits or exercises that you think women over 50 should incorporate regardless of their experience level?

17:46
Yeah, well, that's like two questions in one, right? So non-negotiables, I think, first of all, I would say consistency. Of course, everybody's gonna say that, right? Just the mechanism of building muscle gets more difficult when you get into middle age, just due to the hormonal component, right? Just quite frankly, you're gonna need to be very consistent. And so what does consistency look like? I'd say twice a week, every major muscle group at an X.

18:16
a minimum. Now, if you only have time for one, I'd rather have you do one, but you're going to get a better result if you can at least do two. And it doesn't have, you know, listen, if you're a beginner, you don't have to spend a ton of time. So I'd say, you know, meet yourself where you're at. A lot of my programs, I have a program that's 30 minute workouts. So I really do feel that people can, if they really look, they can carve out two 30 minute sections a week. It really does come down to planning. So that way I would say that's number one.

18:46
capabilities. So this is where, you know, again, I, I, there's so much noise on the internet right now with new research around menopausal women and, and, you know, talking about this need to lift super heavy, you know, PR after, you know, three to five rep max. But the truth is most of the clients I've worked with don't come in the door ready for that kind of training at all. They really, our job as trainers is to teach them to move well, to teach them better body awareness, to teach them how to coach themselves. And I,

19:13
I really believe in that because that's gonna prevent my clients from getting hurt. Yeah. Following a plan or a rep range that you see like on Instagram or in a magazine or even in a book may not be applicable to you. You have to know, and it's gonna take some time, right? To know like how am I moving? How am I feeling in my body? I often joke with my clients. Like to me, an advanced exercise practitioner or somebody who's an advanced...

19:41
is not necessarily lifting the heaviest thing in the room or doing the most complicated exercise, but they're the ones that know enough to slow down and ask the questions. Yeah, that's really good. That are to say, hey, you know, am I ready for this? Or am I, you know, I know I can do, you know, 20 straight leg pushups as a female at age 60. What's next for me? You know, do I advance this now? What's the best way to do this? But knowing, or you know, what's going on with my form? What can I improve? It's not necessarily like,

20:10
push-ups aren't going anywhere, right? And it's one of those basic exercises. And you say that I'm going like back to your third question of like exercises that I think everybody should definitely, if you were to do three, I'd say some kind of push, whether that actually is a push-up, a push-up you don't need any equipment. Some kind of pull could be, was like there's you and I are looking at a camera, I got my pull-up bar, which I don't use as often as I should. I do other forms of pulling, but some sort of pulling exercise to work the back.

20:39
And then I do like some form of a deadlift because I think it's probably one of the more functional exercises that people can do. You know, people hear deadlift and they get freaked out. But the truth is a deadlift performed well with good biomechanics is not that different from picking a your two year old grandson up off the floor or a heavy box or something. You know, where you can do it safely so you're not going to hurt yourself. Like I think those three would be a great place to start. And with most of it, like you said, most of our populations, you know,

21:09
New Zealand, United States, like a lot of people just aren't moving at all. So we want it. We want even just those three would be would be a win. Yeah, amazing. And Jen, like, do you get pushback when you sort of speak out about different modalities of training, you know, because of the very loud voices out there that suggest there is, you know, the best way for women to train and is X, Y, Z, like if you're programming in a different way, do like do you get questions about that from people or or is it?

21:37
pretty much well accepted because you're so trusted. No, I just, you know, I try to, I'm definitely, because I'm like naturally a questioner myself, I wanna go, why is that? And so I, oftentimes when it comes to my coaching programs and the content I put out online, it's like, let me give you the context around it. Of course, you know, you and I use social media to talk about what we do. And it's, we played a game, right, of saying something provocative to get people into the comments, but.

22:05
to explain further, but admittedly, every once in a while, I do get a little pushback and it comes from both sides too. It comes from the lifting super heavy or we should be getting what we need through like bar and Pilates. And I'm of the, of the mindset of this, like, listen, what, here's what we know. Like in order for strength to occur, in order for muscle gain to occur, we need two primary things. One of them is some sort of stimulus to the muscle and the other is nutrition, cause you can't build your muscles out of, out of dust.

22:33
You need nutrition for that to happen. You need nutrients. You need amino acid. So like that is a very overly simplistic way of saying it. But you know, so if you are someone who wants to lift heavy in that, you know, lower rep range to build a lot of strength, rock on. But I just can tell you that from my experience and working predominantly with women over 50 for the past 17 years of my career, I still get my clients amazing results in those mid rep ranges.

23:01
I tend to keep them injury free. Now, it's not to say that there haven't been a few outliers out there who are like, yeah, I want to kind of, you know, do some more CrossFit style lifting or some more power lifting. But honestly, a lot of those same clients come back to me and go, I got injured, right? I got injured because I went too heavy. Because what a lot of people do, the piece that is not being talked about, by the way, in this rhetoric around super heavy lifting is the fact that, you know, if you have some sort of a tendonitis that develops when you get into your forties and fifties.

23:31
That stuff takes forever to heal. So then you think like, okay, so overuse or lifting too heavy, it's like, that's a setback. And that's gonna keep you off of your game. And I'm like, I'd rather keep my clients in the game as consistently as possible. So I am more of a, I'm definitely more conservative, I guess, in my approach. Always, always, you know? I like that. And also, like if I think personally for me, like I'm 47, so I'm,

23:59
within range of your age range, right? And I just know that if I were to go into a gym and attempt heavy lifting, actually I've just got too much of a break in my brain about it, you know, like I can push myself in running, but I really struggle to push myself in other areas of exercise. So for me, actually doing mid to higher ranges allows me the fatigue that I need in order to make progress, because

24:28
If I go in there and the three to five, I'll be like, oh, that was super heavy. But I'd always be faking myself out actually, because it's nowhere near as heavy as what it probably needs to be in order to see the kind of progress that we're wanting. Right. Right. So really, and at the end of the day, like we look at, when we look at all of the studies, what we know is that, you know, in order for muscles to grow, they need to be brought to fatigue. How that happens, you know, you know, and it would say, you know, for the people that do like the sort of, um, uh, what's the.

24:57
you know, pilates and bar and sort of lighter resistance. I have, by the way, I know, and I get pushed back on this all the time. They're like, why do you, why do you diss that? I'm like, I'm not dissing it. What I'm saying is that you may need more than that to get the results that you're looking for as far as your strength is concerned. And I do think that, you know, there's a rhetoric around selling women the byline of like leaner, tighter, smaller, but you know, in those exercise modalities kind of lend into that.

25:23
And by the way, I used to teach bar. I used to take Pilates. I'm definitely not anti either. I just think it's like, let's really look at what these things are. And I know that I have had very good luck with my sort of zone of geniuses, functional dumbbell training and body weight training and things like that for my clients over pretty much the entire course of my career, which is almost 30 years at this point. But. Yeah.

25:50
Which is crazy. And like Jen, it's not like you've always been injury free either. And you haven't had, I mean, you've also had personal setbacks and have they sort of changed your approach with your clients or, you know, what is, because even as recently as last year, weren't you out with like an ACL injury? Yeah, I tore my ACL and my meniscus. I know, really unexpected, right? And I have had my hips replaced.

26:19
And I, you know, people always say, Oh, well, do you think it was cause you, cause I was a big runner at one time. God, do you think it was all the running? Like, well, I did come to find out I had a congenital issue that I had no idea that I had until I turned 47, 46, 47. And I started to have, you know, pretty serious, like debilitating hip pain. But all that to say, I would say, you know, in many ways I just choose to not get stuck in the, the, the setbacks of like, okay, I chose to stop running after my first hip replacement cause I

26:48
thought to myself, well, we don't know how long these things last. And I really don't want to, my goal is not to have to go through this again. You know, so I definitely leaned into more to different types of exercise at that point, but I still do impact. You know, I still do, you know, some, I do some jumping, but I just have brought it down a little bit from what I was doing before. But all that to say, I think like when I look at injuries, I think

27:12
The gift that it's given me as a trainer is to be able to really understand my older clientele much better because I can really, you know, I can remember being like in my thirties and even early forties and not really fully grasping like what a 60 year old was going through. And now, now, you know, I can't know exactly, but I can absolutely have a lot more empathy about what it's like to be dealing with, you know, chronic pain. Cause I have, I have lived with, with pain, you know, I live with it for quite some time. And I,

27:41
I will say, you know, it gave me a whole other lens at which to meet people. But I also think it's still to your benefit, anybody who is going through like a chronic dysfunction or pain or injury in your body. It's like, definitely don't just wait for it to disappear. Get the health that you need and the support because yes, it's inconvenient, but it could really mean the difference between a surgery and not because no one wants to have surgery. You know, physical therapy is there for a reason, right?

28:11
myself included like, oh, it's boring. I don't have to do these things. But when you start to notice the payoff and your strength and your function, it's like, okay, then it kind of clicks. But yeah, I mean, I think injuries, unfortunately, are part of it. And I would just say that I'm very, very thankful that I have, you know, a good base of strength that has helped me navigate those injuries. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I feel that people

28:36
who experience an injury that almost I sensed a lot. They're like, oh, I'm not exercising right now because I've hurt my knee or ankle or whatever. And so they absolutely just like take an entire step back from their routine. Is that necessary, Jen? No, not at all. Not at all. I'm a big believer in from a couple of standpoints like for your psyche.

29:02
I mean, to be fair, like if you need a full body rest because you had the flu or something like that, that's one thing, right? Or you should have worried a car accident your whole body, you know, God forbid. But if it's something like, an example of this, like last year I was in a knee immobilizer for close to six weeks, non-weight bearing, all of that. So what did I do? I didn't do nothing. I worked on everything that could be worked, right? So you find the workarounds, and I've had plenty of clients in the past that have...

29:31
through surgeries, joint replacements. And my whole thing is like, come back as soon as you get licensed to drive or somebody to drive you here and let's just keep you moving. No, let's accept that we can't get, I can obviously get you back to exactly where you were right now, but we can absolutely work on other things and you're going to feel that it goes back to that empowerment question, Mickey, about like strength training and exercise. It's like exercise is empowering. Sitting on your couch, being sad about your injury is not empowering. Like take your time,

30:01
take your pity party. But that's not gonna help you bounce back. No, absolutely. And particularly at our age as well, like you just lose muscle mass and bone mass like to the nth degree when you are sedentary. And this is the thing which I'm always talking to people about as well is like, you know, if you can, whatever you can do, that's what you should do. And you'll get back quicker as well to your point as well. But one of the...

30:30
you know, the fastest ways to pour health as we age is that sedentary time. I know, I know. And it's so easy to do, right? Cause you're like, Oh, I'm tired. Take a load off, you know, and, and, and admittedly, but I do think, you know, as the, as I say, goes objects in motion, stay in motion. And I think like the more active you are, you're probably going to want, you already know you feel better when you move. Like I know at, I'm going to be 54 in a couple of days. I know I feel better.

30:58
potty feels better when I'm standing and walking around than it does when I'm sitting at my desk for two hours. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So like hence the, you know, hence the, uh, the walking pad and that I may or may not always use, but I know all the, I'm being funny there, but it is true. I think I just feel better when I'm, when I'm moving daily, even if it isn't, even if it isn't like a workout per se, even if it is just a 30 minute walk. Cause I do think it's the habit of consistency that like really matters for people in

31:27
Go back to that identity piece, like when you identify as somebody who weathers ebbs and flows of injuries and structural part of life, you always sort of have that North Star of what you want for your life to look like. Whether you're 50 or 80, like- Yeah, yeah, 100%. And so, Jen, what about recovery for your clientele? Like, have you noticed a shift?

31:52
and the amount of time they need for recovery as they age, like, or is it an individual thing? Like what are some insights you can share there? You know, all right, so anecdotally, I would say this for me, you know, as being the age that I am, I have noticed that yes, if I push really hard in a workout or if I lift really heavy, I absolutely need more recovery time. But I'm also

32:20
overly heavy, like just heavy enough, because I know that it's like, I might pay for that by having a little too much soreness. So I do on a personal note in my body, yes, I do feel like I need a little bit more recovery. So my workaround for that is I just don't go quite as hard as often. But in my client, this question just came up actually in my coaching group where my clients said, yeah, you know, I've been increasing my weight, I'm feeling stronger, but I've noticed that I need like one extra day off.

32:49
in between and I'm like, you know, that's fine. I mean, I don't think, you know, somewhere along the line, we got this idea that like our training schedule should work on seven days. It's like, well, your body doesn't know whether it's seven days, 10 days, five days, it just knows a pattern. So, and same thing, I would imagine, you know, running training, right? There's a pattern that you're working up for. And I think with other types of training, it's kind of the same. And so I had said to this client, I'm like, listen, if you can take the four workouts that you want to do, instead of trying to push them into seven days,

33:18
make it an eight day training split, make it a nine day training split, allow yourself a little bit more recovery time so that when you come back to that workout, you can hit it hard again. If that's, she's getting great results and she's loving how she's feeling, but she's like, oh, like that what, I'm just not, I'm trying to do too much in a smaller amount of time. So yeah, I do, I think that's a very valid thing. And so I think, you know, knowing your own body, listening to your body and taking those recovery periods is really, really key and how that.

33:46
how that looks to a person too is gonna differ, right? Cause a lot of people are doing things outside of just their, if we're talking about strength training, they're doing things outside of that. And so that needs to be taken into account as well. Yeah, for sure. Like if you are working out hard in the gym four days a week and then spending two days of the week doing like household chores and running around like a crazy person, and that's not necessarily recovery per se either, despite the fact that you're not in the gym.

34:13
I know. And that's a whole other conversation too, that I would say, I would bring it back to the conversations that I have with my, my perimenopausal women, menopausal women about the weight gain. And one of the common things that I find, and this is more when I was doing more one-on-one coaching, it's like, a stress piece was so huge, but it was the piece that no one wanted to look at because it seemed like a such a bigger thing to unpack, you know, like I'm not stressed, I'm productive.

34:38
Totally. And people thrive, they thrive. The type of people we're talking about thrive in that stressful environment. It is, as we were to our sort of earlier point, it's how they got to where they are in their career and with these other goals. And it's really difficult, I find, to get a straight answer from someone about their stress level. You almost have to ask the people around them because they don't really see themselves as stressed. They just see themselves as, you know, what they've always done.

35:04
I think, I mean, listen, I fully own, I was guilty of this. This is very much what my 30s and early 40s looked like. Absolutely. And you know, as a result, what I had to pay, what I ended up with is some, a body that was like chronically sore and tired, weight gain and a gut issue, you know, just like constant, for years of gut issues. So I, you know, it definitely was a learning lesson for me. It was like, okay, I can know all of the, I can know all of the things on paper.

35:31
I can know about the fitness piece and I can know about the nutrition. But the stress piece was the piece that I wasn't looking at because I was so busy just like, oh, I'm just doing everything and I'm raising the kids and I'm doing my training business and I gotta get it all in so I'll only sleep six hours. And it just was like one thing on top of the other. But if somebody had said to me, do you feel stressed? I would have been like, no, I don't feel stressed. Like this is just what I do. I'm like a highly functioning individual. And admittedly still.

35:58
12 years later, here we are, I still have moments where I have to coach myself to be like, no, you can take downtime. You don't have to be returning an email. You don't have to be doing anything. You can, you know, you can, I really do think it's, it's something I call boundaries around time. You can put boundaries around your time, but that starts with you. You know, and I think that's a, that's a harder thing for so many people to unpack because it's easy for them, easier, not always easy.

36:28
easier for them to say, okay, I checked my box on the workout and I checked my box on the nutrition. But the stress piece and the lifestyle management piece is such a, it's a bigger ask because it's literally like, it permeates every facet of your life. So it's harder to, harder to break that apart. I think it really does. It takes a little bit of soul searching. And unfortunately for some people, I know in my case, it just took like some health issues to really look at it. And again, I don't even know that I could fully see it. It took a couple of years to like really see.

36:57
step back. And now I can, as they say, hindsight's 2020. I can see it very clearly, but I just couldn't. What was the catalyst for you, Jean? Was it your hips? Was it a particular incident? Was it just this, some sort of like realization? No, and actually, so what I had come to find out, this was kind of what dovetailed me into the more than midlife women's health space. Around the time I was 42, I was just recently an empty nester. And I had my kids very young. So like, my oldest was

37:26
actually just graduated from college that year and the youngest had just left home. So I was like having this, whoa, like big void in my life. Like my kids were gone. My husband had a job, significant job change and started a business, but that was a, you know, a financial stressor on us both as a couple also having kids at college. So those were two pieces. High stress lifestyle pieces, plus on top of it, me, I would say like, you know, this is back in the days of...

37:56
the boot camps and the training and all that. I was like, it wasn't uncommon for me in those years to be, you know, teaching a 45 minute spin class and then going right into a boot camp and teaching that. So working out two, three hours a day, definitely not fueling myself. I never had a weight issue. It was like always, you know, kind of same consistent size. I was like, yeah, whatever. I was kind of relaxed about it. I, you know, I was so used to coaching clients for weight loss that I was like, yeah, you know, I just was like,

38:24
not really thinking about it because it was never an issue for me. Anyway, I think all of that sort of came to a perfect storm. And what I've come to understand later on is that part of why women in midlife do end up starting to present with gut issues is because of that drop in estrogen. You know, you're, you have estrogen receptors all over your body in your gut as well. So in that perimemorial causal transition, you, you know, it's debatable. This is not a diagnosis, leaky gut, things like that, but they, but they are

38:52
Mechanisms that I think we don't fully understand how they are affecting people. But all this to say, we know that the drop in estrogen can absolutely facilitate that. And I think for me it was sort of like a perfect storm. It's like, yep, just going into that period. Now my, you know, I'm just not. So the joke of like what used to work, is it working anymore? It's like, yeah, but what I was doing before, I wasn't necessarily health supporting. I just got away with it. So then I really had to take a deep dive and go like, how am I going to eat to support my gut? I'm not going to chase after a weight loss, even though I was starting to gain weight.

39:21
eating less and less. I just was inflamed and yeah, it was not a, it was not a good time. Not a good time. But I do think it's to that point when you asked me about the injuries, I think that experience helped me really look at all of this way more holistically in a way that I never had before. Um, especially being on the other side of it, like, okay, that makes a lot of sense. There was a lot of things going on there that could have contributed to.

39:48
Yeah, it's a bit interesting, isn't it? Because of course, I know a lot of women who are like me, who are very endurance minded. We strength train, I mean, not all of us, I mean, there are lots of people who don't, but they're like, it's a, because I'm grappling with injury and I feel like I have been a lot this year and as you're talking and you mentioned, oh yeah, I was 47 when I'm like, oh God, I'm 47 and I'm having this like, you know, significant issue with my gluten and whatnot.

40:17
I do wonder whether it is more of a female thing than a male thing as well, because I know many guys who are really like nailing and crushing their workouts and their races who are my age or older, I'm like, ah, I just feel like a bit of a failure that I can't. And maybe, you know, and I can totally see for myself that I have a future of hiking and more strength training, which is actually fine. But I, I'm not quite ready for that.

40:46
for that yet, but a lot of what you're saying, Jen, is resonating with sort of some of my experience. Yeah, I mean, I think, listen, I wouldn't be, it wouldn't be truthful for me to say that I don't have sometimes like a little bit of a morning where I'm like, oh, I really wish I could just like go out and run again for five miles just because I used to love to run. But it was a choice that I made because my body wasn't really feeling its best. And you know, after one hair replacement, then another, I was like, yeah, I think we're gonna wind the party down. I could run in place.

41:15
Yeah. I get around 50 yards in my knee too, but I'm just not doing it as consistently. But I get what you're saying. And I do think I started to see this in my clients a lot over the years. They would get to their mid-40s and the injuries would start and they'd be chronic. And you absolutely, PT can help. I think what I really notice a lot is that when you get to midlife, things that maybe wouldn't have caused those... Put it this way. When you have some aching...

41:45
issue like you were mentioning your glute, like that may have been something that you could brush off in a couple of weeks in your 30s, but now you're older, it just takes longer to recover. And I would also say I was looking at like the alignment on a car, you know, you can, you have, if you're one of your wheels out of alignment, you can keep driving on it, but it's going to affect the rest of the chassis, right? And our bodies really aren't that much different. Like I am still, I go to PT now. I have a PT that I work with that helps me because even though I know the form of an exercise,

42:13
If I am, if my foot is pronated in just the wrong way due to the knee injury and the lack of muscle, it's going to have this ripple effect in the rest of my body causing pain somewhere else. So it's like the pain, the pain is coming not necessarily from the source of pain. The pain is often coming from something else that you're doing consistently. And the answer is like correcting that. But gosh, does that take patience, right? Because you just like to your point, you're like, I just want to be better. I just want to do the things that I love. And now it's become a full time.

42:42
full-time job to make sure that I can remain injury free. And it stinks, but I think it's, I think I have tried to keep a sense of humor about it in my own journey with that. And I know, as I said before, when you asked me, but any bright side to having injuries, I'm like, well, it does absolutely make me more empathetic to my clients because I know, if you make it to the age of 50 without some sort of an injury, you're pretty much in unicorn. Yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%.

43:11
And Jen, obviously, your strength is your main thing, but I know that you speak about nutrition with your clients as well. Because of course, people would expect you to have the knowledge and have experience in that area just for the same reason that they expect that they want my opinion and expertise sort of in the exercise piece, which is not necessarily my focus. So what are your sort of, I don't know, do you have any...

43:40
big pillars that you talk to your clients about when it comes to nutrition. Well, you and I are probably on the same page. Protein and fiber. Yeah. Yeah. When somebody asked me, even if, even if they're not part of my coaching programs, I'm like, my quick answer to you is if honestly the three most powerful things you can do, number one, well, all right, let's get three. Make sure you're eating enough protein. You know, I always give them that. I think in pounds, not kilos, but I'm like, what is your ideal body weight and work from there? So 0.08 grams.

44:09
point zero eight to one. It's like, and the leaner you are and the more active you are, chances are the more protein you're going to need. Okay. And then make sure you're eating enough plants, not only fiber supplements, like eat real food. I find just so many people just aren't, they're like, oh, well, can you give me a protein shake? I'm like, listen, I'm not going to tell you a protein shake is bad, but I really want you to get you in the habit of eating on regular intervals. That's the other thing, like eating in regular intervals, not just like snacking and grazing all

44:38
again, what we know for women in midlife. And I think, you know, I don't know what it's like in New Zealand as far as culturally with eating, but I do think like Americans are famous for like eating on the go. Everything is just like meal, meal times don't seem to have any like ritual to them, which is a shame. You know, it's not like the European way where like people sit down and eat. Um, and I think that, you know, as a result of that, we've really lost a lot. It's really messed with our relationship with food in a lot of ways. We're very disconnected from it all.

45:07
I used to, when I first started teaching nutrition online, not one-on-one, but online, I really, I started from a place of mindfulness. Each time you sit down and eat, take a hot second to be present with yourself. Because so many people just skip that step. They're just like eating, multitasking, on a computer, returning phone calls. I'm like, half the reason why you have digestive issues or you feel like you have cravings, you don't allow the food that you are eating to be satisfying to you.

45:36
So I really, I am a big believer in that. Now, do I always follow up myself 100% of the time? No, but 90%, 90%. I do try to do that because I think it makes a huge difference. Do you know I heard on a podcast that, was it a podcast? I do believe that that food company started producing the TV dinners as part of the.

46:02
and they labeled it as part of the feminist movement. You know, like women don't belong in a kitchen. They need to get out and work, you know, that they belong in the corporate world. So, hey, here are these easy like TV dinners. You no longer have to spend time cooking. I'm like, that is clever, man. Like food marketers. Well, admittedly, and you know, admittedly, I have kind of brought this into, not TV dinners, but part of this into my platform just to be cheeky. Cause you know, like some, I'm sure you can agree, like cause you show, I mean, I was like.

46:29
I'm making it come cook for me because her meals always look so amazing. I always sharing her meals on Instagram. But I'm like, I think part of this too is just because I raised three children. So I was always cooking and shopping. And I got, when I started my online business, I really, you know, I was, I was really pressed for time in a way that I hadn't done before. And so I just was like, you know what? It's okay. It's okay that, you know, every meal, your food doesn't have to entertain you. It just needs to be food. So I'm a big believer in keeping it simple. Now, admittedly.

46:57
For me, I have cooked and I've understood, you know, macro-based nutrition for a really long time. So it's very, it has become second nature to me, but I do, you know, now it's like, okay, am I going to have, you know, some chopped vegetables, some greens, a little quinoa, some chicken, little sprinkle of cheese, we're good. Like it doesn't, to me, I don't, I don't overcomplicate it. And if I can make it in five minutes or less, I'm a happy champ.

47:21
You know, and I will do like a bigger cook once or twice a week, but I think you could still have great nutrition and really simplify it. You don't need to be eating TV dinners or convenience foods, you know, and I think that's unfortunately a limitation for some people for sure. Yeah, no, and I love that. And I do like what you say about not needing to be entertained by food, because I do think that we put food on a pedestal, you know, like it's, and part of it is because women who have dieted for 30 years, they...

47:51
They, you know, food has become this, it's just such a huge piece of either they're allowed something or they're not allowed something. And when they've dieted for 30 years, they've actually spent probably more time breaking the diet than they, you know, than actually following it to a point where they can actually do it. Yeah. And putting foods in good and bad. I mean, you and I came, something you had posted the other day and I'm like, I'm still with you there. So, and this could dump, this could go into a whole different.

48:21
tangent, but you had said something about, um, you had made a comment about seed oils and you're like, yes, there might not be any research that says that they're detrimental in your health, but everything that they are in and the way they are processed, I'm like not fully on board. And I'm like, I'm with you, I'm with you. Just because the research says this doesn't mean we aren't going to find out later. And I'm like, why not? Why not just take it out? It's not going to hurt. It's not benefiting you to keep it in. But all that to say, but all that to say, like I am definitely not in a mindset of like vilifying foods.

48:50
I think I just look at it like, okay, well, there are certain foods, maybe it is processed foods that have seed oils or whatever. Okay, that's something that's maybe 10% of my diet. I don't never have it. I don't never have potato chips. I don't never have a french fry. I don't never have a piece of candy, but it's just not, it's not making a, it's not part of my regular repertoire of the bulk of the food that I get in a day. And so, but I do think women that have...

49:17
come from a history of dieting, they're so used to thinking through a deprivation lens that they don't see that like, when you truly understand the value, like from a caloric standpoint or nutrient value of food, it actually can be a lot more empowering. I look at it almost like a bank account. It's like, if you think about United States currency, I'm like, well, currency is currency, but you need to understand the difference between a dollar bill and a one dollar bill and a hundred dollar bill, right? And so your nutrition is kind of similar. Yeah.

49:45
Yeah, no one loved it. You want to understand how to keep that balance. You want to understand how not to go over or go under. And it does take awareness. It does take awareness. It does take a willingness to learn and open up your mind and practice new skills that may not be innate to you. I think I know, and I would imagine you find this with your clients too. I have clients I talk to. I'm like, I don't think they ever had healthy.

50:13
eating patterns modeled for them like ever. So how would they know? Yeah, for sure. Jen, in your coaching with nutrition, do you have to coach women to eat more food? You know, like because of a lot of the trends around, around fasting, etc. Yeah, I think, you know, I often say, like, there is, there can be advantages to, I hate using the word, you know, fasting, but like,

50:40
take it. And obviously there's research to support fasting, but I always see like, but don't do it at the expense of still learning how to eat. Like fasting is only good to a point. Like I think for some people, especially like if you just read a quick, you know, woman's day magazine, and you're like, Oh, all I have to do is like not eat for 14 hours. Like that's very easy. The barrier to entry is pretty low for that. But you know, yeah, I know your programs around that. Like there is, there is nuance around that. We want to make sure that you're getting enough nutrition. So yes, in answer to your question in my, I have a six week

51:10
nutrition coaching program called mindful macros method, which is combination of mindfulness, but also macro based education. My goal for my clients is not to have to count forever, but to count at least initially as a educational experience. And one of the first things I have them do in week number one is I call it observation week. I'm like, I want you to write down everything you eat. I want you to weigh it. I want you to measure it. I know it's tedious, but it will help you in the long run. What do you actually see? Because that data,

51:38
Cause I would have clients say to me all the time like, oh, well I eat pretty well, or I don't really eat, I barely eat anything. But they don't really know until they actually go through that exercise. And I always say, please don't make it a highlight reel, cause a highlight reel is not gonna be helpful. We wanna know exactly, we wanna know as close as we can. Now admittedly, I'm sure you can agree, when people write things down, they probably are more mindful cause they go, oh, maybe I don't want that extra piece of cheese or.

52:04
you know, whatever that sauce is that I know is going to be 150 calories or whatever. And they admittedly, but I do find that more often than not when they come to me and they come to me with that journal, we presented on the first call. It's, you know, most often they're eating about 13 to 1400 calories. This is just average, average active women and usually about 60 grams of protein on average. Yeah.

52:27
Yeah. And it makes such a difference, isn't it? And the patterns of eating as well, like a lot of women who feel they're not eating that much might not be eating a lot during the day when they're fully stressed and running around, but it's when they get home and it's not quite dinner time and they're hungry and they start picking, that's when sometimes, at least in my experience, I see a lot of the calories. I did that for many years. Yeah. And the gym, I was, you know, great. Cause I had, I was going from client to client to client. So I didn't really have time to like sit down and eat a whole meal. So, you know,

52:57
two cups of coffee, couple classes, energy bar, some granola, maybe a yogurt, but like piecemealing it. And then, you know, three o'clock in the afternoon, I was like, oh my goodness. I am starving. Stomping. And I was just like, you know, so it's like, it's such an easy answer to just like get out ahead of it. But it did mean, it did mean a lifestyle change for me because it meant changing my schedule, right? Because I had, I'm like, I have to build in time to eat.

53:26
client does not want to see I can't eat a restful meal while I'm training client and eating a salad, a protein rich fiber rich salad. Like that's not going to work. So really. And I know, listen, high performers, they don't want to hear that. No, I didn't want to hear it. No, I can't do that. I've got clients to see. Yeah, totally. 100%. Now, Jen, you know, you've like, you've got quite a large following and there are people in your

53:53
sort of space that also have a really large following. Like I'm thinking, I mean, the likes of Mindy Pelts, you know who I'm thinking of? Uh huh, yep. Yeah, Fast Like a Girl, Eat Like a Girl, that kind of thing. Like I will say, I just listened to a podcast of hers yesterday and I don't often engage with her material, but I've sort of shifted my thinking on her a little bit in that she's actually, she's come around a little bit in terms of the requirement for protein for women that.

54:21
Fasting isn't the be all and end all, or end all and be all is how other people sort of say that. And I feel like her messaging has changed somewhat as we've become more, as it's become more sort of aware in that social media space, the importance of protein and the importance of eating. And I feel like you're almost like this middle ground between the likes of, say, Stacey Sims and Mindy in terms of

54:49
recognizing that both are important tools for sort of different reasons. I don't know if you've noticed that yourself or... Yeah, you know what I think that is for me just personally is I am not a person that does anything in extremes and I don't like to speak in absolutes like ever. And so a lot of my philosophy is just based on, of course, research, right? But also anecdotal experience. Like I know, I know...

55:16
But clients that I have talked to in the past that'll be, or people, you know, people I would run into my neighbor, they're like, Oh, I'm doing intermittent fasting and I lost 15 pounds. I'm like, well, could we also consider that maybe you also cut your core? I don't know. Yeah. You know, what we want to do is make sure you maintain your muscle. So, or I did that and it's not working anymore. And they really, you know, they'll kind of bend my, you know, bend my ear as to why. So I'm always of the mindset of like, before we go to things like in the nutrition piece,

55:43
fasting or keto or before we feel like we have to jump into what the latest health experts says. You know, it's not to say that those things don't have value because they do. I just, in my experience is like, but could we get it without, could we get results without the extremes? Like when they do research on weight loss, weight loss in general, they don't find weight loss. They don't find that much difference between somebody who's just on a calorie restricted diet versus somebody who's intermittent fasting.

56:10
Right? It's not, it really does come down to that, that, that, um, calorie balance in the day, the energy balance in the day. And of course there's all different offshoots for people with certain health issues to reset your insulin, how, how to help your gut. Like, so for me, like when it comes to a fasting piece, I'm definitely on board with, Hey, shut that kitchen down three hours before you go to bed and try to go to, try to get an eight hour sleep. And then you don't have to eat the moment you would jump out of bed. I don't.

56:37
So already you've built yourself in a, I call it like a digestive rest. Is it a fast? Yeah, but it doesn't have to be 16 hours, you know, and I think we know for women who are still menstruating that in particular, it can be really stressful. Yeah, every individual is unique, but because I'm working with people in groups, I like to be very careful about speaking in absolutes because everybody is different and my goal is to educate people. And sure, if you, I look at it like this way, and I say this to my clients in the,

57:07
in my macros course, and like, you may have come into this fasting and you're, I assume you're here because that's not working for you anymore. So let's dial it back. Let's open our minds to something new because you can always go back to what you were doing before. That will set us not going anywhere. So, but you might actually better understand how to combine what you liked about fasting with a more macro based approach where you are increasing your protein and eating in a more balanced way. And you might find like,

57:37
You aren't looking at the clock, but if you were to look, you're like, yeah, I really actually do take and digest your breasts for 12, 13 hours. So all that to say, you know, I didn't think we're all works. I always say that we're all works in progress with this stuff, and I think it's good to be willing to experiment. Yeah, for sure. And I love the fact that, I mean, you and I are very similar in our sort of love of that sort of evidence-based approach, yet also recognizing that our clients are also

58:05
a piece of that, that's also evidence. And also ultimately it comes back to, well, what's your experience and what's your body telling you and what's your nervous system telling you about this thing that you're trying? And it is all an experiment, because you can go back to a previous way of doing something if this new way doesn't work. But sometimes you almost have to, as you said, it's that suspension of disbelief.

58:30
It's changing the narrative right at the start of the conversation. It's changing the stories that you're telling yourself. Yeah. And I, and you know, I often say to people like, and you, you, you came to me for a reason because I'm assuming you wanted something different than what you already were doing. You wanted a different perspective. And so I'm like, I am nothing flashy to sell you seriously. Like I, I am very much, and this is part of the reason why I went online in the first place. I was like, I don't know, maybe it's just kind of boring because opera.

58:58
a straight shooter, but I'm also like, yeah, you know, let's talk about different ways that we could do this. Let's talk about if you wanted to bring in some fasting into a macro based approach, or you wanted to increase your lift to do more power trading. Like I, you know, I have no issue with that. But what I see is people getting almost paralyzed by the data. Like I, you know, like when it comes to like interval training, like, well, should I rest 20 seconds or 40 seconds? I'm like, at the end of the day it's really more predicated on a lot of other things. Like how

59:28
you know, what your max was to begin with, how much you slept last night, what you ate, all of these little pieces that like never ever feed into the conversation. We're so ready to lock into the soundbites. And I think it's like, I see people losing trust in themselves, which is where I come in. I feel like I wanna teach you and coach you how to coach yourself so that you don't have to be so in the weeds with the data and overwhelmed by like, am I doing it exactly right? Because there is no exactly right. Doesn't exist.

59:57
No, you're right. And I feel like those things that you talk about, like when people do get into the weeds, it's almost a distraction. And it is, it's that they're not doing anything actually, like because of that anxiety that they've created themselves. And I think this is what I love about what you do, Jen, is that I think sometimes people can become very popular because they are, they do speak in absolutes and that's a very good technique for them to sort of...

01:00:26
draw an audience and sometimes they forget that they're speaking to many more people than what they were intending to speak to. Like for example, you know, and I think maybe we've talked about this, like, like Stacey used to only be for an athletic population, but she's so popular now that everyone listens to her and it's not an appropriate message for everyone. Similar to Mindy, Mindy was probably only working with people who were, you know, sort of sedentary and or maybe lightly active, but now there are a ton of active women who are listening to a message.

01:00:56
That's a problem. Yeah, I mean, it has an unfairness to both of those ladies and in particular Stacey, I'm like, you know, the research that she's a well-respected person in the industry and is definitely not a, and in her defense, like, if you were to listen to, like, a three hour podcast with her, she will be the first to say, like, but not every woman is ready for this level of training. Like, but those are not the pieces that are getting picked up on social media. So I'm getting the people that are going, wait a minute.

01:01:24
why shouldn't I be looking like this? And like, listen, and reality is, at least with my coaching programs, is I'm designing programs for women who are working out at home. So I already know, I'm like, you don't have the equipment that you would need to even lift that way, most likely. So let's just stick with what you've got. You can always do that later, but we've got to, because again, Stacey's platform was definitely more about reaching an athlete. A woman who was a former, very highly athletic person who is well-trained, who has years and years of training.

01:01:53
and probably incredible body awareness. Like that is the person that that was talking to, not the person who had been sedentary. So, but again, not to say it's definitely not a criticism or a dig, I just think it's just the nature of social media in particular and how like we kind of pull into things and like we just lock in. And I have been in the industry and as of you long enough to know like, so we're gonna hear this and then five years from now we'll hear something different. And I'm like, I've kind of like not changed my tune. Like I joked the other day, I'm like,

01:02:23
I've been a menopause coach since menopause was cool. Like everyone now is a very menopause coach. I'm like, I was doing that already. You know, like even before I was, it was, I was dealing with that client. I had a front receipt to the fact that, you know, women once their estrogen is tanking, they're just susceptible to a lot more, a lot more injuries, aches and pains, gut issues, all of the emotional stuff. And I do think it like,

01:02:49
It also for women in particular just comes at a time of life where they're also dealing with aging parents, change of career, re-evaluating their relationship with their spouse, all of these things, which by the way, goes back into that stress piece, right? So we can't discount that it's like a very, very pivotal time of life. And I know that listen, if anybody's listening to your podcast or they're following either or some social media, I believe that those folks, women was just the women are like,

01:03:18
they're looking to us for solutions or guidance, right? So I already know I'm like, that kernel is in there to want to change or to improve in some way. And I would imagine, I always have to remind myself, I'm like, what is it like from their end when they hear all of this noise? So I'm like, I just want to be the one that's like, right. I'm, I'm the middle one, kind of boring, but I know that I've been doing it long enough that it works. I don't necessarily need to, to, to,

01:03:46
I mean, I have changed some of the things maybe, but not drastically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's actually, you're like a little beacon of consistency, I suppose, and calm, and what can feel like a minefield of, you know. I know, right? And sometimes I'm just like, oh gosh, I gotta like not look.

01:04:10
But if you would ask me, actually, and this is kind of continuous on this conversation, and I know we're probably have to wrap it up, but I think you would ask me, have I changed my tune on anything over the years? And I would say probably one of the things that I have changed my tune on is maybe 15 years ago, I would have definitely, like if I had a client that was coming to me with a weight issue, who was not doing much at all.

01:04:39
Or maybe like, a lot of my clients were like, oh, well I play tennis and I do Pilates. I'm like, okay, so we gotta like, you know, do something different. The message right now is like cardio for women and perimenohas is a kiss of death. I'm like, I'm calling BS on that. That's not true. But I do think I have seen in my troubles, given my industry and also kind of, I was like this, is just doing way more cardio than I needed to be doing. So not so much of a standpoint, like the cardio itself was making me gain weight

01:05:08
raising my cortisol, which I'm sure that it was along with other stuff. But it was really sort of a, what a lot of women don't realize is that that more activity is going to drive your hunger and that more activity is going to drive you to eat things maybe that you don't want to eat. So my first prescription to a client who had a weight loss goal used to be like, we got to increase your cardio. Like we got to get you moving more. And now I will say something more general. Like I just want you moving more. I want you to start to really look at how much you're moving in a day, because we know.

01:05:38
that caloric expenditure throughout the day is far greater than a 40 minute ride on your Peloton bike. Like so, you know, and it's not to say that they both, they don't both have value. I'm certainly not telling anybody not to do it, but just keep in mind, the more you're using cardio to outrun the diet for fat loss, you could be potentially creating a situation for yourself. So it's going to be helpful for you to at least know what to be eating based on that level activity if you want to do that.

01:06:07
and then not to discount the strength training. Yeah, nice. I love that, Jen, that real, I am 100% on board with that message. Do what you love. And for obviously endurance people out there who are training for an event, you absolutely have to train for that event or you just love it because it's so wonderful your femicide health and that's sort of where I'm at. But you do not have to be spending hours on the treadmill in the gym.

01:06:34
And then not moving around for 22 hours of the day. Right. And then just to be a certain size. And I would just say also too, like the more that we do goes back to that recovery piece, the more active that we are, the more that we're showing up to do that, chances are the more run down we're going to feel, especially if we're not, we don't have good recovery practices if the nutrition isn't on point, it's going to have a ripple effect. So when women are like, oh, I don't feel motivated and like, well, could be also because you're doing too much. So. Yeah.

01:07:03
Jen, I knew this conversation would be fun and it was, and we did really go all over the show, but I think people appreciate it and people like hearing two different voices, I suppose, in this space, just having a conversation about philosophies, about best practice, some sort of tips and tricks to sort of get them going. So just to finish up, Jen, if you can, can you sort of give us your prescription for

01:07:33
What would you be your ideal, I suppose, exercise prescription for a woman in her 50s? You mentioned strength a couple of times a week. What about the cardio? What about the HIIT? What about just moving in general? Like if someone asked you that question, what would be your sort of prescription? In a perfect way. And let me predicate this as somebody who is at least already currently being somewhat active because I wouldn't want to jump in. But I'd say, you know, pick something to do. Pick something to do every day.

01:08:03
You know, it could be, it doesn't have, but I think ideally I would love to see my client. And this is what I designed my programs around by the way, but we do strength training three days a week, about 40 minutes. It's not like an epically long session. We get in, we get out. I'm a master. I love circuit training because it allows you to hit a lot of muscle groups in a smaller, a short amount of time. Again, that's not a prescription for somebody that wants a massive physique, bodybuilder

01:08:33
So I'd say, you know, start with that because with that, with circuit training, you do get a little bit of a cardio effect, right? You can always add metabolic finishers. You can add heat conditioning into the mix. I'd say add a minimum of that. Next level, I'd say, you know, we hear a lot about the zone two cardio. I'm like, just get your heart rate up. Don't try to redline it every single time you work out. Just steady. You know that from endurance running, right? You can't run at peak 85% heart rate for an hour. That's not gonna fly.

01:09:03
So I think, you know, I love people to move a lot, but whether they're walking 10,000 steps a day to me is like really irrelevant. It's like, what is it in the context of the rest of the rest of their week look like? But I do think, you know, getting a good solid cardio workout where you're breathless three times a week in addition to that strength training is pretty key. So I'd say those three and three, you would definitely see some great results. And again, seasons, I would just lastly say seasons change. You know, I think for my...

01:09:32
my personal fitness regimen right now. I'm doing strength training twice a week. I do HIIT training in agility because I'm doing a lot of stuff for trying to get my knee back once a week. But I put that because there's plyometrics and stuff like that, I put that in that category. I do some flexibility, yoga, mobility one day a week, sometimes twice, depending on how I'm feeling. And then I get on my spin bike three days a week and ride some intervals. Yeah, yeah.

01:10:00
Oh, that sounds great, Jen. Well, tell people where they can find you. And when is your next program launch? It's got to be around the corner. Yeah, I know. Well, actually, what we're doing right now, we're trying something new. Well, first of all, you find me at jenn That is my website. That is also my Instagram handle. My next live program, where it's me coaching, isn't going to be till winter 2025, but I always run a free fitness challenge.

01:10:25
I have a free two week workout program that people can just download from my website. But the other thing I actually have coming up, I'm doing open enrollment twice for my, I call it the Straight Up Strength series, which is just a 100% self-paced series in the app where you get workout program, new workout programming every month. So a lot of stuff I was talking about, I include metabolic conditioning and core.

01:10:50
and strength training with really geared towards women who are working out at home. There's no fancy equipment that you need. It's very straightforward. And most of the workouts are like between 30 and 35 minutes. So that is actually my members, my kind of entry level membership option. And I'm opening that up actually next week for a week. I'm a small team here. So I only do my enrollments a couple of times a year. So we can manage everybody when they come in. So we're gonna do it in November. And then the big program will come in the winter.

01:11:20
and I will include links to all of those in the show notes. And you are such a wealth of information and knowledge and you share so much on social media as well. And I think that people can learn a lot if they're not already following you. And you don't have to be 50 to follow Jen. Like, you know, like she's for all ages. I get that question a lot. They're like, I'm only 45. Can I join? I'm like, of course.

01:11:48
you get you'll be 50 soon enough yeah yeah totally you're only getting older and I know right one day closer yeah thanks so much Jen thank you Mickey so much this is fun

01:12:15
Alrighty, hopefully you got some practical stuff from that and you could just sense the type of information Jen shares. She's very much grounded in real life, pragmatic solutions to helping people sort of build strength and resiliency as we age. So next week on the podcast, I speak to returning guest Michelle Matangi on navigating the festive season with mindset and diet information.

01:12:43
and we also talk a lot about exercise as well. So just some tips to keep you motivated and inspired throughout this holiday season. Until then though, watch out for my Christmas sale coming up next week on my DIY real food plans and fat loss plans. You can catch me over on Instagram, threads and Twitter @mikkiwilliden. All right team, you have the best week. See you later.