Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In preparation for Good Friday services at Sandals Church, Pastor Matt Brown and Creative Director, Dex Alexander sit down for a working conversation about the theology of God's wrath and Jesus' work centered on this challenging segment of Isaiah 53:10, "It was the will of the Lord to crush him."
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Well, hey, everybody. This is Justin and welcome to a special Good Friday edition of the Debrief Podcast. Man, several months ago, we began preparing for Good Friday services here at Sandals Church and every year, we try and create unique experiences that help us take a real and refreshing look at the work that God did for us on Good Friday through the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. And this year, our creative team set out to put together an experience that explored Good Friday with a character representing and and looking at those events from the perspective of God the Father. And over the couple months of preparation we did for Good Friday services, that character and the nature of the experience shifted a bit, But it all started with a conversation that our creative director Dex Alexander had with pastor Matt Brown.
Justin Pardee:And when they sat down to have that conversation, I asked if we could stick some microphones in front of their faces and they said yes. So, So, what you're about to hear is really the initial theological and creative explorations for the Good Friday experiences we created. Now, as a warning, this gets pretty intense as a conversation, so you're going to hear some things that are intense. Man, there was plenty of pauses and tears in the room really as we were reflecting on the work and the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. You're also going to hear some pauses while we're flipping around through the pages of the scriptures.
Justin Pardee:Pastor Matt is leading us to different places throughout God's word that show us the realities and the truths of the Good Friday events. So you'll hear some pauses for that. And at one point, Pastor Matt mentioned something called Mehole, just so you're not confused. That is the title of a book that he has written and, will eventually be publishing. So, don't be confused for that.
Justin Pardee:For now, I hope you find this conversation really helpful, for you as you process what happened on Good Friday as we look towards Easter.
Dex Alexandeder:So here's so here's the plan. The plan for Good Friday is to it's and it's all based on Isaiah 53. As we're thinking about Good Friday, was reading through Isaiah. And there's this passage, Isaiah fifty three ten, is is the one that really sticks out to me. It says that it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and cause him grief.
Dex Alexandeder:Yet when his life is made, an offering for sin, he would have many descendants and enjoy a long life, and that sort of deal. But that first verse, it was the Lord's good plan to crush him. And the other translation say it was God's perfect will. There's another translation that says it pleased God to crush him. That sort of sparked this whole idea of, you know, oftentimes we'll tell the Good Friday story from, the disciple's perspective or from Jesus' perspective or something like that.
Dex Alexandeder:And we're really trying to wrestle with the thought of telling it from God's perspective and trying to figure out how to explain this this sort of timeline that the cross and that resurrection was a part of this whole timeline, that from God's perspective went back before time.
Matt Brown:Right.
Dex Alexandeder:So how to explore things like God's wrath, the fact that, you know, there's sort of this image of God just as this loving, you know, whatever. But, in fact, there was like and this is where it gets into theology and where I wanted to be sure that it was clear. In my mind, there's like a payoff that happens for God's wrath on the cross, where Jesus satisfies the wrath of God Mhmm. Against all of us who have gone astray. So the idea, the creative idea, just to sort of give you some context, sort of be like, in the room, in the middle of the room.
Dex Alexandeder:I would be sort of in the middle of the room in kind of, like looks sort of like a control center or like a almost like a madman's sort of laboratory or, you know, whatever. And it's got, like, you know, big hourglasses and computers and, you know, whatever. All of this sort of stuff all around it, and just sort of starting this monologue of what what, all of these moments that led up to Good Friday and Jesus being killed. Mhmm. Talking about, you know, there's, you know, one of the things that jumps out at me is the the time in the desert where, where God has, you know, Moses set up the staff and people have to go get killed, and there's the, you know, the exodus and getting out, and there's the Passover angel, and there's just all of these sort of moments that are these set up sort of moments.
Dex Alexandeder:And and the idea is you sort of, you know, we'll weave in songs songs and video and all of this sort of stuff in between all of it. Right. That makes it, you know, this this whole night that kind of, you know, goes all the way through. But at the end of Good Friday is is is just full on, like, God's wrath happening, you know, at the at the moment of death, and then come back on Good Friday with one of the many passages that talks about God's wrath not enduring for long, that God, you know, that that you know, whatever. Find this passage that helps to turn the corner, and then the corner turns, and then all of good all of Easter is the celebration of Jesus' life and the resurrection.
Dex Alexandeder:So that's sort of the idea. We've got this big screen like a scrim that goes along the whole entire front. And what we're hoping, we're gonna start testing this today, is that thing sort of sets in this, like, red dye. Mhmm. And this red starts to seep up from the bottom over the course of the night and just seeps all the way up, just keeps on going up up up up up.
Dex Alexandeder:And then Easter morning, the very first song, you know, we start playing the song and then that veil sort of comes down between, and now we're on the other side, we're on the resurrection side. Yeah. Like that. So But I wanted to be sure that, especially as we're talking about God's wrath, as we're talking about atonement, I wanted to be sure that the details of that are right. And this won't be like a theo like a like a lesson of atonement.
Dex Alexandeder:It'll be, you know, theatrical, and it'll be poetic, and it'll be all of that sort of stuff. But I wanted to be sure that.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I just I think that what's important is that we What would be cool is if Like, I'm thinking of the imagery of the cross as as a tea, and so it would be so cool as if if everything on Good Friday was on the left side of the cross. And so it's all about his anger, his wrath, because the cross shows two things. It shows God's hatred of sin, and then on Easter, it shows his love for for sinful people. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so it's both. And so, you know, like I'm thinking of like, you know, read Lamentations. Like Lamentations ends with, you know I'm trying to think. Yeah. So Lamentations four eleven, the Lord gave full vent to His wrath.
Matt Brown:He poured out His hot anger and He kindled the fire in Zion that consumed its foundations. And so, you know, so right. What's his name? What's the pastor's name? In the Hands of an Angry God, Jonathan Edwards famous sermon.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, to understand God, we have to understand both His hatred of sin and His love for people. And so, you know, we get wobbly in our theology when we overemphasize one without the other. So listen to Ezekiel five thirteen, God's speaking to them. He says, this is rough. So it's just, therefore, their father shall eat their sons in your midst and their sons shall eat their fathers.
Matt Brown:And I will execute judgments upon you and any of you who survive, I will scatter to all the winds. Therefore, as I live, declares the Lord, surely because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable things and with your abominations. Therefore, I will withdraw, my eye will not spare, and I will have no pity. A third of you shall die in pestilence and be consumed with famine in your midst. A third shall fall by the sword all around you and a third I will scatter to all the winds and unsheathe the sword after them.
Matt Brown:Thus, my anger shall spend itself and I will vent my fury upon them and satisfy myself and they shall know that I am the Lord and I have spoken in my jealousy. When I spend my fury upon them, moreover, I will make you a desolation and an object of reproach amongst the nations all around you and in the sight of all who pass by, and you shall be a reproach and a taunt. Listen to this, warning and a whore to all the nations around you. When I execute my judgments on you in anger, fury, and with the furious rebukes, I am the Lord, I have spoken. That's to the people that he loves.
Matt Brown:Right?
Dex Alexandeder:That was Ezekiel?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So it's Ezekiel five, I think I started in '10. And so, you know, right? So so God is gracious. So all of Jeremiah is you can repent, you can repent, you can repent.
Matt Brown:Right? And they they they beat Jeremiah, they throw him in a cistern, they wanna kill him. Like, it's just this right, come on guys, come on guys, come on guys. And so they have ample opportunities to repent. And then Ezekiel says, it's oh, it's over.
Matt Brown:So a third of you will die. You're gonna eat your kids. You're gonna eat your old people. Like, I mean, that's how bad it's gonna be. And, I mean, it's it's amazing.
Matt Brown:So so God is gonna bring Babylon to punish them. Oh, and by the way, Babylon, after seventy years, I'm gonna do this to you because you just punked my people. Mhmm. I mean, it's so so and it's so, you know, right. The fear of the Lord, it's the beginning of wisdom.
Matt Brown:And so, I think what the message that we need to to preach on Good Friday is sin is serious to God. It's it's serious and he hates it. And I think that, you know, and so, you know, right? God's I mean, I think So I think that I think that the cross did two things to God's heart. One, it pleased him.
Matt Brown:It was it was his goodwill, and I don't like that translation. Right. Was his will to punish Jesus. But why was it his will? It's because his will is to love us.
Matt Brown:And so we have to we have to show both sides of that coin. And so, you know, I think about, you know, this week we're in Luke nine. Luke nine, start like in verse 18 through like 26. You know, Jesus says, who do people say that I am? You are the Christ.
Matt Brown:Right? So who are you? You are the one who will bring victory to your people. So, the imagery of Christ is that of military conqueror, right? He's gonna be the great general, Alexander the Yeah.
Matt Brown:He's gonna reach him and he says, no. Tell no one of who I am. And then he says, for the son of man must suffer and die. And so he is before we can reign with him, he had to suffer and die so that he could redeem us as his people. So he has to purify his people before we can be with him because God cannot tolerate sin.
Matt Brown:He will not look upon sin. He will not be a part of sin. And so, and so, you know, part of, right, the picture of the cross. I mean, you want you wanna talk about, you know, why why did Jesus Christ suffer and die? Because we are not the only audience.
Matt Brown:Right? So when you look at when you look at Philippians, who is God teaching? You know, who who is who's watching? Well, far more than we know. And so so part of part of what's happening on the cross is God's character and his word is being redeemed not only for us, but to all creatures, creatures, creatures, spirits, whatever in the unseen world because they're watching.
Matt Brown:And so, God has said he will punish sin and and it will be destroyed. And so how does he ultimately fulfill his own word? Well, kills his own son for us, which is just bizarre. So Yeah.
Dex Alexandeder:How do you how do you how how do you explain the dual duality? It's actually a dichotomy of, you know, passages in Lamentations, especially some places in Jeremiah where where we sort of know that God's he's wrathful and he's angry and he's saying, I'm going to I'm gonna do that. Like, this is gonna happen. And then instantly follows it up with, but I cry for you. And and I'm I'm I'm broken, you know, and I'm I you know, the children in the streets, there's all of this imagery of God's, like, pain and anguish over that.
Dex Alexandeder:Like, I I get the, father or parents punishing their children analogy of, you know, as a parent, yeah, it hurts when I've got to discipline my kids. But I'm wondering if there's something stronger than that, like a stronger image than that to help to to point that out.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, the challenge for us theologically, right, is we live in a culture that doesn't understand sin, doesn't feel guilt for sin, that that Right. You know, we we we don't have a culture anymore that has a hatred for sin. So so it's hard for us to understand why why God would do that. Right.
Matt Brown:Because we don't have a, you know, we don't have a
Dex Alexandeder:We're okay. Like, we're okay with that.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, I don't even know that as a culture we even agree with the concept of sin anymore. We think of it as, well, you know, everybody's right. Nobody's perfect. Right.
Matt Brown:And we, you know, we don't realize, you know, the cesspool that we are as human beings. You know, was listening to this commentary, you know, about politicians coming to Vegas and they're like, you know, politicians are supposed to be the best of us and yet they're talking about they even soil Vegas. Yeah. Right? I mean Yeah.
Dex Alexandeder:People in Vegas are like
Matt Brown:Yeah. And then this is where you can get, you know, like midgets in a in a spa full of Pepto Bismo to do whatever you want for a couple grand. Right? I mean Yeah. I actually heard that analogy on the radio.
Matt Brown:Some guy said, what can we get in Vegas? And that was the thing that they did. They said, they called up and said, hey, we want naked people in a pool of Pepto Bismo cutting our toenails. And they said, much is that? $6.
Matt Brown:Okay. Right. So so so Vegas Vegas, right, that's hell. I mean, that's that's sin city. You can get whatever your heart desires as long as you have the the ability to write the check.
Matt Brown:But politicians come there and it's like, oh. So I think the depth of the human heart escapes us. I think we see it in politicians, but the reality is, you know, this is what I would say is is people always think that the problem's Washington. Right? We all wanna say Washington, but Washington is reflection of us.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Who sends them there? We we do year in year out. And so what's sick with America is not Washington. What's sick with America is Americans.
Matt Brown:And we don't we can't see that. We can't see that, you know, because if Americans didn't tolerate it, it wouldn't be there.
Dex Alexandeder:Right.
Matt Brown:But we do. And so it's easier. Right? So Jesus says, first take the plank out of your own eye. Well, why do we have politicians like this?
Matt Brown:Because we're all self seeking. We all want our own desires. We want we all want our own things fulfilled. You know, poor people wanna take money from the rich people. Rich people don't want their money taken, you know.
Matt Brown:Right? Everybody wants everybody's in it for themselves. And so, it's an ugly thing. So that that that's what I think we need to create is we need to we need we need to we need to somehow pull the veil off people so they can see how ugly things are. Because even in our language, right?
Matt Brown:Well, if God's so loving, why are people hungry? Well, I think God would ask us that same question. You have enough food to feed everybody six times over. Why are people still hungry? It's not it's not for a lack of me providing, it's a lack of you sharing.
Matt Brown:Well, why is there disease? Because we would rather spend money on militaries than finding cures. I mean, why? Because God's attacking us? Right?
Matt Brown:I mean I mean, you come back to these things. Well, the finger of God, well, why do we continue to live there? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, everything everything that I think that we we blame blame on God, can look back at ourselves and say, you know, why do airplanes crash?
Matt Brown:Well, because people have to have brakes and human beings aren't focused and, you know, an airplane shouldn't crash. Right. But, know, Joe had to take a cigarette break and forgot to lube the joint and, you know? Yeah. So, so we've gotta, we've gotta, we've gotta help our people understand why sin is so ugly, you know.
Matt Brown:And so like, it's like the person who doesn't have cancer trying to explain to someone who's never lost someone from cancer, or they've never seen the effects on can they don't have a true hatred for that. So we have to create a picture for them on Good Friday of why sin is so ugly. Right. What sin does. The Bible says it always leads unto death.
Matt Brown:So sin is a spiritual cancer that infects and destroys everything. And God will not tolerate sin in heaven. He won't. He won't allow it. And so, what it what I don't know if I'm helping.
Dex Alexandeder:Yeah. No, you are. It's really good stuff in there.
Matt Brown:I just think it's important that that we understand that the cross both pleased God and broke his heart. Like, we have no idea, which again, right, I mean, you think you think about judgment that I just read to you because they rejected his prophets. Mhmm. What on earth is judgment gonna look like when he sent his son, loving, kind. I don't know if you guys have seen risen yet, but I took my family to see it on Sunday night, it wasn't as good as the passion, but it was really good.
Matt Brown:And the thing I loved about it the most is they just made Jesus so lovable. Like, you know, the Roman soldiers, he's like, why why are all these people? Why do all these people wanna be with them? And he's like, have you met him? You know?
Matt Brown:And I love the scene where he goes to heal the leper and Peter comes up to the the Roman soldier and he goes, watch this. He does this all the time. This is really great, you know? And here's this guy that no one will meet and Jesus just goes up and embraces him. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Loves him. And it's just beautiful. And so Jesus was nothing but wonderful. Nothing but wonderful. And, you know, we killed him.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Dex Alexandeder:I've trying to read more about moments where Jesus sort of flips from good guy to bad guy, for lack of a better term. Never, you know, bad guys relates to sin. But I was reading last night, where they're up in the upper room and Jesus is going around and starting to wash everyone's feet. And Peter, you know Yeah. Gets all super pious.
Dex Alexandeder:It's like, no, don't wash my feet. And then in this moment where Jesus is doing something really good, he goes, then you'll have no part of me. Like, he's just, I'm gonna write you off. This is over, done, finished, you don't get this sort of part. And I've been reading those pieces because I think it's one of the things that is is most complicated about understanding God in the in the which we never completely will, but trying to trying to make his complexities, more understandable is that throughout all of eternity, he's managing this back and forth between I'm creating all of creation as a way of expressing my love for humanity.
Dex Alexandeder:Everything that I've done is to express my love for humanity, and then instantly having to call people to the carpet for sin, like in in in those in those same moments. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Well, only people Jesus calls to account for sin is religious people in the New Testament. Right. He never, He never goes after the prostitutes. He never goes after the tax collectors. Now, when they come to him, he says, leave your life of sin, but he always embraces them and he always loves them.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. The people that he's goes after are those with like this, you know, this sense of self righteousness. And again, I think that's the problem. That's the thing that we have to break down for for those of us who are gathered. So, the non Christian right, we have to present a case for their sin.
Matt Brown:To the Christian, we have to represent a case. I'm sorry. You know, like, this is just something that I wrestle with in my own family. Like, I always feel like Good Friday should be like a day of mourning for my family, and they wanna go to the movies, they wanna go to Vegas, and it's just this it's just it's immense struggle. And the reality is that is because a, I haven't done a good job leading my family and teaching them this is the darkest day in human history.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And it's the best day. So, and b, they don't they don't understand that it's it's not a day it's not a day to watch movies. It's it's it's it's Right? It's the most terrible day in the life of the one we love.
Matt Brown:Yeah. You know, and and again, I'm reminded of that, you know, as I'm looking at my daughter as we're watching Risen with Christ hanging on the cross, and it was just morbidly awful to look at as you watched him. And they and and in Risen, Jesus's eyes are open when he's dead. It was rough. And you're looking into the dead eyes of Jesus.
Matt Brown:It was just That that was profound for me. There was, know, the movie got a little Hollywood and a little funky, but there are some moments where I was just like, oh my gosh, this is amazing cinema Mhmm. Because I have to look into those eyes. And so, you know, I think we have to help our church look into his eyes and see that, that, you know, Good Friday is just not, it's not a day to party. It's a day to reflect, you know, it's a day of darkness.
Matt Brown:And to enter into that, you know Mhmm. Just woah, so that on Sunday or Saturday, you know, we can, right, we can celebrate. Right. One
Dex Alexandeder:of the angles I'm trying to take with the character that we're creating to try to represent God is that, like, we've all seen people who are, like, too smart. They're just a little bit different. They sort of gaze off into nothing. They have a twitch. They don't talk like the rest of us.
Dex Alexandeder:Like, they're just kind of so I'm trying to create this character that is is part that that is close enough to this feeling, like, is gonna rant like a madman who sort of gets lost in his emotions for part of the night. And then also sort of explaining human history in a in a way that, you know, ways that just the average person can't really see. How how close to like, there's a part of me that sees this passage in particular, the Isaiah 53 passage of of his will to crush God, or to crush Jesus Mhmm. As like, it had there had to be a moment where he had to separate the father part. This is just I'd say it has to be, but this is how my brain makes sense of it.
Dex Alexandeder:Where he has to separate the father part from the judge part, and just go, you know, I can't love you in this moment right now, because I've gotta judge, like, I've gotta judge sin. Right. And the fact that those two things, it's the the wrestling match that Abraham had with Isaac is I have to to separate myself from my ability to save you because of my duty to judge sin. Is that how you would explain the moment where Jesus says, why have you forsaken me? Like, think there's the there's the human moment where he's reminding people of the Psalm 22 passage, I think it is, where that that starts off with that same line, why did you forsake me?
Dex Alexandeder:And then it says in there that the they're casting lots for my you know, that to me, that was the human moment. I'm gonna say that so you guys will harken back to what the prophecy was about me. But then the spiritual moment, in my head, that's where God goes, you're on your own for right now, because at this moment you're bearing the way to sin. I can't be a part of that. I've got to judge this.
Dex Alexandeder:How do you explain that that line where Jesus says, my God, why why have you forsaken me?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, it's actually in Psalms. He's actually quoting Psalms. I'm trying to find it. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Maybe it's Psalms 27. And you have to remember David's not just a king, he's a prophet. So sometimes his Psalms are prophecies Right. Whether he knew them or not. Let's look at Psalm.
Matt Brown:I'm pretty sure it's Psalm 27.
Dex Alexandeder:So the first line of Psalm 22 is, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saying? And then, in seven, it says, all who see me mock me. They make mouths at me. They wag their heads.
Dex Alexandeder:He trusts in the Lord. Let him let him deliver him. Let him rescue him.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Yeah. You're right. It's 22. And so go up to 14, I am poured out like water.
Matt Brown:All my bones are out of joint. Mhmm. My heart is like wax. Mhmm. It is melted within my breast.
Matt Brown:What happened when they pierced his heart? Yeah. My tongue sticks to my jaws. You laid me in the dust of death. So David never died.
Matt Brown:That's why we believe that this is a prophecy about Jesus. Yeah. For dogs encompassed me, a company of evildoers encircles me. They have pierced my hands and feet. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Right? That never happened to David. Right. I can count all my bones. That's where we get none of his bones will be broken.
Matt Brown:They stare at me and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them. Yeah. And for my clothing they cast lots. Mhmm.
Dex Alexandeder:And that's why I think, like him him saying that out loud and should remind the the Pharisees and the the the scribes and all the religious leaders who know their bible, front side and back side, he calls out that line, and that should be the first thing that plays in their head going all the way through. I think, you know, obviously they're they're sort of blind to it.
Matt Brown:Mhmm.
Dex Alexandeder:But I also think the eternal element I guess what I'm trying to get to is I'm trying to find this moment to sort of to wrap everything up, where this God character literally walks out of the room just ranting and raving. And like, I So I've been just sort of doing like this stream of consciousness, you know, kind of talking almost every time, and I kind of feel bad, so I don't think I would say this. Don't know. Like the last line is just get the out. Like, I just I just want I want everybody out of here.
Dex Alexandeder:I can't I can't imagine that the throne room, that anybody could survive, even in heaven, this moment where God had to separate himself Mhmm. Let his son die, judge sin, all of that sort of stuff in the moment. Like, to me, it just it it it it just seems like it would be too much even for Yeah. You know, angels or
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Dex Alexandeder:Like anybody, like you just, you know.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So, I I think that's awesome. So, we we don't write we don't know because the scriptures only indicate what happened on earth, but the Bible says that the ground shook, So, the holiest of holies was torn. Mhmm. But heaven probably shook, the very foundations of heaven shook because the first, for the first time in all of eternity, the triune God is now separate.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And so, right. So so so what is the ultimate penalty of sin? Jesus Jesus Jesus experiences both penalties of sin. So so death in the Bible, you know, doesn't just mean like end of life, it means separation.
Matt Brown:So, the first death is, separation of the soul from the body. Mhmm. The second death that Revelations talks about is the separation from the soul from God. So, are those who do not experience the second death. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So, what does Jesus Christ experience? Both. Both. Yeah. He experiences the first death, the physical death, and then he experiences, which is ironic, he's experiencing the second death before while he's still alive.
Matt Brown:He's feeling God's spirit pulling from him as he dies. And then I believe he ascends unto hell and preaches the gospel according to first Peter Mhmm. Which again is a controversial point. But, you know, as evangelicals, we're so afraid of this idea of purgatory that I think it it it causes us to not translate that passage correctly. And so what we say is, well, he preached to demons.
Matt Brown:Right. Well, why would he do that?
Dex Alexandeder:Why would do that?
Matt Brown:Right. It doesn't I mean Yeah. Right? There's nothing in the gospel that indicates that there's anything that awaits demons except judgment and torture. So, and then he goes immediately into talking about Noah Right.
Matt Brown:And saving eight while judging the world. So, I think he's talking about preaching preaching to all those who never had an opportunity to hear
Dex Alexandeder:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:About Christ. And so they have an opportunity to to be saved. Because God is just. Mhmm. He's a just God.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, we have to be careful on that, not to just say, okay, well then we don't have to share the gospel, because we as far as we know, we do. Mhmm. So, I like this this, you did this. Mhmm. I like that idea of God's anger and God's love come together on the cross, and there's this explosion that just actually separates God from himself.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So, God's righteous anger and God's never ending love. So his righteous anger and his eternal love come together on the cross, and there's this explosion that shakes the earth, separates the temple the temple and just, you know, like we we have no idea what what was happening.
Dex Alexandeder:Right.
Matt Brown:You know, and I think too often we focus the immensity of Christ's suffering on the physical nature of it. And I think, I mean, this is a guy, right, who can't can't eat for forty days.
Dex Alexandeder:Yeah.
Matt Brown:Clearly he's badass. I mean,
Justin Pardee:this guy
Dex Alexandeder:He's a tough guy. He's
Matt Brown:not afraid of anything. I mean, he scares people. Yeah. He's a man's man, but what was unbearable, right? What's unbearable for him is the separation from God, which is what he's trying to save us from.
Matt Brown:And that's what he's experiencing. And so, and I would say this word, Christ Christ became truly alone so that you and I would never have to be lonely. I like, I love that. Right? Because in the creation account, Christ became truly alone so that you and I would never have to be lonely.
Matt Brown:That's a good tweet. Yep. In Genesis, right, everything is good and God says it is not good for man to be alone. Because man does not truly reflect God yet in a way that God is reflected. He is relational, father, son, and holy spirit.
Matt Brown:And so man must become relational. Not it's not a perfect example, but, you know, woman is of the man and all men shall be of the woman. So we're all bound together, which the father, son, and holy spirit are eternally bound together. So
Dex Alexandeder:Alright. Last thing and then I'll let you guys transition over.
Matt Brown:And don't drop the f bomb. I won't. That might be your last day. It's true. Well, Dex hasn't done that yet.
Dex Alexandeder:I got one.
Matt Brown:I got one. You've, like, right? You've you've used your grace.
Dex Alexandeder:Alright. So the the idea of atonement and sort of what it takes for us to be united, with Christ. I was reading yesterday, there's a there's a there's two great books written by a guy. I was gonna bring it in a day. I can't remember his last name.
Dex Alexandeder:But it's called, The Day Jesus Was Born is one of the books, and The Day Jesus Died is the other book. And it's like this he's this guy was a journalist, and so he's gone through all of the the biblical text, but then, you know, all of the extra biblical text from historians and stuff at the time, and all the stuff that's written by it. So it creates this one, almost a novel, but it's just this one long narrative, from 7PM, just before they go to the upper room, until just after Jesus dies. Anyway, he's taught between the chapters, he puts in these, like, historical sort of things about the life of, like, what Jewish life was like at that time, what those cities were like, and this great historical deal about Romans and the history of crucifixion had actually started off with the Phoenicians, but, you know, they never quite got it right. And the Romans made it a science, and they started to document, well, we don't want it to take seven hours, but we also don't want it to end in thirty minutes and work.
Dex Alexandeder:How can we get it to this fine, you know, whatever, this whole entire deal. But he was talking about the the sacrifice and how sacrifices worked at the time and how there would be these three priests with three lambs. You know, you had to complete this one slit. If they messed up, the whole thing had to get dismantled because it wasn't a perfect sacrifice, and the lambs had to be unblemished, and, you know, all of these different deals, and taking the blood and pouring it on a stone, and the stone would seep down into the temple. And it just made me think of all of the work and effort and details that had to be at the forefront of all of these people's minds just to feel like they were remotely close to God, or seen by God, or like acknowledged by God.
Dex Alexandeder:And then you have this act of Christ that sort of wipes the need for all of that sort of stuff away. Mhmm. So, I guess what I what I wanted to hear is just that the idea of atonement, the the the the completed work of Christ, how how do how do we communicate that? And it's something we continue to re communicate, but how do how do we say that the work for salvation is done, and then add to that the fact that we, you know, this passage of working out your salvation and this whole idea of, know, fear and trembling. Like, how do we paint the picture of the completed work of Christ with the ongoing work of sanctification, I guess?
Matt Brown:Yeah. And so I think the issue is the forgotten cross. And I talk about this in Mehole is, know, a lot of Christians have forgotten a cross. And it's not the one Christ died on, but it's the one we're to die on. And so what I say is the first cry the first cross saves you, the second cross changes you.
Matt Brown:And so the picking up of your own cross and following him daily, that's the process of being changed by Christ. And, it's only through the process of dying daily to self, know, learning to say yes to Jesus means learning to say no to yourself. And most Christians never figure that out. So let's use as non religious symbols as possible to communicate. Because our we don't live in a a, a sacrificial culture.
Matt Brown:We don't live, you know, b, in a Jewish culture. And so we don't need to explain all those things. What we need to do is we need to create a case for something's broken and it must be fixed. You know, like yesterday, the windstorm we had Yeah. Blew my son's basketball rim over, landed right on Tammy's brand new car.
Matt Brown:Destroyed the whole hood. Okay. I can get over it, but there still has to be a repair made. It has to be fixed. And so we've got we've got to show the church that something is broken.
Matt Brown:We've gotta make that case for, we can clearly see that something's broken. You know, we can also see beauty, but but how do we how do we resolve this conflict of brokenness? And the reality is is Christ is the only way, because what what needs to change is everything. And so that's why Christ talks about a new kingdom, a new creation, a new heaven, a new earth, everything must be new. Behold, I make all things new.
Matt Brown:I'm going to start over. Who wants to come with me? You wanna stay here forever? You wanna continue to spend eternity in brokenness? Mhmm.
Matt Brown:There will be a place for you. You Do you wanna do you wanna spend eternity in a place where the lion lays down with the lamb, you know, where the child puts his hand in the cobra's den and isn't bitten, where, you know, where there's no sin, there's no death, there's no sickness, you know. Right? I mean, the new Jerusalem is this this river flows out, and that's what's so cool about Jerusalem. If you guys get to go, is there's a whole water system underneath the city.
Matt Brown:They have no idea where it comes from. So Jerusalem is a desert city that completely exists on well water, and they have no idea where it comes from, but it's been there for three thousand years. And so, Bible talks about a river will flow out of Jerusalem, and there will be a tree that grows there, and the people will come and the leaves will heal them. So, we will constantly be connected to Jesus in a way where we're we're renewed. The new bodies are constantly renewed.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Or, you know, I always think of hell as you get your eternal body and it rots forever. There you go. There's no renewing. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:You know, there's no, and in that way, maybe leprosy is a picture of eternity to come. Mhmm. Just this this this slow decay of, nope, you're on your own. And so, right, so if Christ is life, if our life is in Christ, how does one experience eternal life apart from Christ? Because he is the sustainer of life.
Matt Brown:And so, I think that's that's what Jesus is talking about, where the where the corpses burn and the moth never dies. There's this eternal decay. It's just disgusting. Mhmm. You know, in Dante's inferno, it's soul swimming in a lake of piss.
Matt Brown:Not piss, pus. Mhmm. It's worse. It is worse. They swim in pus.
Matt Brown:So it's so it's so for him and that's not the worst level. It's like two or three Yeah. Before the bottom. It's this lake of infection. Everyone's dying slowly and pulling each other down as you go by.
Matt Brown:Right? It's it's it's a lake of selfish sickness. Me, me, me, me, me. Yeah.
Dex Alexandeder:Perfect.
Matt Brown:Thanks. So so again, be careful about creating religious imagery that confuses. And so, you know, so much of this religious image imagery is in here be it because they understand it. They see it. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:They they get it. And so how do we create pictures of, you know, helping our people not have to translate this? And again, that's the mistake I think like so many people do is, oh, I need to become an expert in Judaism. No, you don't. You know, those are simply symbols to help those people understand what was wrong.
Matt Brown:We need to create symbols to help us understand what's wrong. So, you know, for us, you know, so so many people today, the idea of even killing an animal is ungodly. Much less killing it because God said to. Right? Right.
Matt Brown:And they ate they ate the animals. I mean, they didn't like just go to waste. Yeah. So they burned the fat and the gross stuff, but they ate they ate the meat. The priests were butchers.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Really good ones. So, yeah. Big barbecues, man. The Lord loves to eat.
Justin Pardee:Well, thanks so much for listening and joining us on this special edition of the Debrief Podcast as we looked at the truths and realities of Good Friday. Man, if you've got any feedback about this version of the podcast, I'd love to hear it. Would you send me an email? You can email me personally, p r d sandals church dot com. I'd love to know what you thought and if you found this helpful and we will be back with a regular episode of The Debrief next week.
Justin Pardee:We love you guys. Thanks so much for listening.