So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan & Jennifer sit down with Kelly Harbour to explore what it truly means to start over and how to embrace change with confidence. They also discuss the power of leading with kindness and the lasting impact it can create.

After 10 years at Goulston & Storrs in Boston, Kelly made the jump to join Moore & Van Allen as the firm’s very first Chief Marketing & Business Development Officer in North Carolina. Kelly is a fellow at the College of Law Practice Management and the Director of Member Engagement for the SALI (pronounced “Sally”) Alliance, a nonprofit publishing a standard taxonomy for the legal industry. 

She is an accredited partner in the Smart Collaboration Accelerator, a Certified Master Coach by Legal Sales and Service Organization, Inc. (LSSO), a Legal Lean Sigma Green Belt, and she is active in the Legal Marketing Association, most recently serving as co-chair for the Northeast Region Conference. Plus, she is a parent to both a human and a dog!

Learn more about our guest:
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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts - Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned practice, this podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Kelly Harbour: [00:00:00] I, I read something that just struck me as so true. It essentially said, we tend to give an unfavorable interpretation to other people's actions and the most favorable interpretation to our own. And I was talking it through with someone and, and we just sort of came back to what do you know to be true?
So don't fill in those gaps and just offer people that same grace that you would want people to offer you in, in what you're. Doing. Just try to meet people where they are. Accept other people's humanity too, and don't create the narrative when you don't have the evidence.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. So we're here. I'm very excited. [00:01:00] Um, so today we're gonna talk about New Beginnings with our guests.
Jen, I think you and I have a little bit. We could say a little bit about some, some new beginnings and how our, how our stories kind of align in terms of. Staying at one place for a while, starting over. It's a new year. Um, do you wanna, do you wanna say some, something, something about fresh getting, I mean,
Jen Ramsey: Do we, are we resolving people on this, on this podcast?
Does anyone set a New Year's resolution or an intention or not? Kelly, I see you shaking your head.
Kelly Harbour: No,
Jen Ramsey: I don't. Okay. I love that. I'm with you. I think I'm like, you know, we should just start whenever we want. Although I will say. My husband and I are doing dry January coupled with 31 days of hot yoga.
So, and we were like five days in, 'cause today's, oh, I put maybe, [00:02:00] yeah, maybe Melanie will scrub out the date. But, um, we're five days in today's January 6th going strong, feeling great. So it's not a resolution, but it's just kind of a little bit of a challenge, we'll call it.
Megan Senese: Hmm. I mean, I do like, I do like.
The reset of a calendar year. Um, and I think you know, Jen, I told you this earlier, that we do in my house, what we call Nic shutdown, which is when we stop purchasing things for the entire month except for groceries. Yeah, and then we see how much money is just like floating around. I think we're generally pretty disciplined, but it is a good reminder how things can kind of creep in.
Like, my kids need new cleats. I'll just buy them immediately. Instead of being like, do you need new cleats? Or do you just need new socks like that? You know, just a revisit of do I really need this? Do I really need it right now? And it forces. My super speedy sin house to slow down a bit and revisit things, um, and think about what we really want, [00:03:00] which I think is a lovely segue into formally introducing our guests today.
And so, Jen, why don't you just kick us off with our formal introduction?
Jen Ramsey: Yes. We'll talk about New Beginnings. We are so excited to welcome Kelly Harbor today. After 10 years at Golston in stores in Boston, Kelly made the jump from the jump to join Moore and Van Allen as the firm's very first chief marketing and business development officer in North Carolina.
So seriously, new beginnings. In all caps. Mm-hmm. Blinky Blink Letters. Kelly is a fellow in the College of Law Practice Management and the director of Member Engagement for the Sally Alliance, which is a nonprofit publishing a standard taxonomy, which we love taxonomies for the legal industry. She is an accredited partner in the Smart Collaboration Accelerator, a certified master coach by legal sales and service [00:04:00] organization, also known as Ella, SSOA, legal Lean Sigma Green Belt, and she is active in the Legal Marketing Association, most recently serving as co-chair for the Northeast Region Conference.
Plus, she is a mom to both human and four-legged furry friends.
So Kelly, welcome. It is just so. Exciting to have you here, and congratulations on Yeah, your new role and position in a new beginning. Thank you.
Megan Senese: Oh my gosh,
Jen Ramsey: So exciting.
Megan Senese: Thank
Jen Ramsey: you.
Megan Senese: How does it, how does it feel to like, I don't know how many podcasts you're on and get to read your bio over, like, out loud like that to your face?
How does that feel when we read it out loud?
Um, you know, it's a. It's a shot of pride with a chaser of, I'm, I'm just a person. Mm-hmm. And there are so many people who are doing more. Um, you know, I'm, I'm [00:05:00] deeply committed to the legal industry, but I never really feel like the smartest or most accomplished person in the rooms that I'm in.
Um, and I just, I love learning and pushing the envelope, so I don't, I don't know that I'll ever feel like I'm, I'm done or I've.
Megan Senese: I mean, I think that's like a helpful re-like frame to have, right? If I think if you're running around thinking like, I'm the smartest person here, then you're probably not learning for like, you're not being open, um, to, to learning more and, and pushing.
So we would love to learn a little bit more about your path and the twist, the turns, your journey and taking us kindly to the present day.
Kelly Harbour: So I do think my career has had some unusual twists and turns. So I, out of college, I worked at a couple of advertising agencies and it's kind of what I think people would expect.
It's very fast paced, it's very low pay, it's a great experience, [00:06:00] a lot of hours, um, a lot of stress and. I was feeling burned out and, um, you know, I was spending my twenties working like 12, 16 hours a day and I wasn't dating anybody. Perhaps those things were related, and I just decided I needed a change.
And so I moved from Florida where I grew up to Boston because it seemed like a place where there were a lot of career opportunities. My older sister had settled there, and so I, I sort of, I. Worked with a recruiter and I got myself placed at a marketing services company and I was doing quality assurance and process improvement, which is sort of random, but it was a, you know, it was a job and it was on a male production floor, which is actually really interesting.
And then one of the division heads called me a few years into my tenure there and said, I want you to come work in the database division. And I said, I think you have the wrong [00:07:00] person. I was an English major and a PR minor. I'm a words person. I'm not a data person. And he said, Hmm, I think you have something.
And so I moved into this division. They taught me a little bit of sequel so I can still write a very basic sequel command and I'll
Megan Senese: test you later.
Kelly Harbour: I started to. To dig into the effectiveness of marketing campaigns and how to study the patterns of data for opens and clickthroughs, and also looking at drip campaigns and what was, what were people converting, um.
I also became, they were developing some software there and I became part of the sales team. I would do the demos during sales meetings. Um, and so I have a lot of empathy. Also side note for anyone who is a, a tech salesperson and has had things go wrong in demos, because I've been there [00:08:00] and it was, you know, at, at some point I had gotten a review that said, gosh, you're doing great and we love you and we just can't give you more than x percent of a raise.
And I was lamenting to my husband like, huh, you know, they really liked me and I really liked the job, and, you know, and he said, you were way underpaid and you should just see what's out there. And so this will date me, but um, I put my resume on Monster and a recruiter called me about a business analyst position at Bingham McCutchen, and I had no exposure to large law.
Before this recruiter called me, I had never given any thought to people who were not lawyers or um, assistants or paralegals who worked at law firms. I had no idea they had marketing departments or IT departments. No one, it was just, right, it was just completely foreign to me. And they were looking [00:09:00] for someone who would be focused on working with the marketing department and improving their marketing tech stack and modernizing some of the things they were doing.
So it really is. Played right to the strengths that I had with both the sort of advertising background and then the data and tech set. And so that's how I was introduced to Big Law.
Jen Ramsey: Like how did you make the jump then from it into a marketing team, business development team.
Kelly Harbour: So I. Uh, there were a few things that came together for me in sort of a perfect storm.
Uh, but it's the opposite. It's like the perfect, I don't know, utopia. So I had, uh, an amazing mentor, Tracy Elm Blade, who's now the COO at Hinshaw, and she was fairly rare. Woman leader in the IT space and she was a really fierce advocate for the people on her team. And we got along really well. We're still in really close touch.
And you know, she and I talked a lot about career development and I advanced within the IT [00:10:00] department to run all of their project project management. And it was really interesting because I got such a broader view of the firm. It was mostly focused on back office technology. Some of it was, um, was attorney facing, but really a lot of it was, um, was sort of back office related, but still I got.
Views into different departments like intake and you know, conflicts and risk and finance and other places. So at the same time, I went to grad school and I got my master's degree in Law Firm management, and that was a niche program run out of George Washington University. That unfortunately does not exist anymore, but it also.
Essentially was meant to prepare people to run law firms. And so it was, you know, one of the capstone projects was in teams putting together a full law firm strategy and taking into account the business [00:11:00] climate, the, the client, the finances of the firm, all kinds of really interesting scenarios. And so when I finished that, I thought, I'm not going to be a CIO.
It's just I, I'm not, data security is not where I belong. You know, it's just not the right place for me to continue to advance. I love this intersection of strategy and data and technology. I wanna land on the strategy side. And so I went to the CMO at Bingham at the time, uh, Krista Crane, who's now at Loeb and Loeb, also a very dear friend of mine.
And I said to her, I know I don't look like, you know, look like the other people in your department, but I think I have something interesting to bring to this team. If there's an opportunity to join your team and to do things a little differently, let's talk. And she, at the time, was spinning up a function around cross practice initiatives.
So industry groups, client teams, things that were [00:12:00] working across the firm. And so she brought me onto that team and absolutely loved it. And then unfortunately, Bingham was about to meet her demise and no one was doing business development or client growth. So I started looking for a new job and many, many people had told me I had to meet Beth Cone at Wilson in stores, and I had met her.
A few times informally. Again, she didn't have a role at the time, but things kind of came together in that late summer of 2014. And she was looking for an associate director of client relations. And, um, she was also amazing because we sat down over lunch and pulled up the job description and changed it based on what I wanted and what the firm needed.
And, um, and I landed at Goulston and. Was then there for the next decade and was able to really [00:13:00] stretch and grow in other ways. Um, practice group management was introduced right after I joined, and that was under the marketing and business development umbrella. And so I was able to help shape that. You might be picking up that there's a theme that I like to shape things and create things.
Megan Senese: Uhhuh uhhuh.
Jen Ramsey: Well, and I love the theme too, that you have had some really amazing, strong Oh yeah. Women mentors. Yep. Even though we don't know each other, Kelly, I feel like in my research that I did leading up to our podcast together, I feel like that's something that you are as well to your people. Yeah.
A strong female mentor. And I just think it's so cool. A lot of times we, as women, don't. Get to have strong female mentors. And so when we have a little taste of that, it's just magic.
Kelly Harbour: Yeah. Uh, a hundred percent. Um, and it's definitely very intentional, I very much [00:14:00] want to pay it forward. I'm very grateful to, you know, to the people who helped me.
But in particular there were some very strong, influential women and I absolutely wanna, wanna pay that forward.
Jen Ramsey: Yeah. That's amazing. When did you, when was the point, the inflection point for you where you thought I wanna be, I wanna be the chief, I wanna go into the chief marketing BD officer. Um, 'cause you know, legal marketing.
Careers can take many different paths. Yes. Much like our lawyers, our clients, you know, the, you know, our clients, um, whether we're in-house or where we are, where it's like some lawyers wanna make partner. Mm-hmm. Some want a different track. Um, where, where was your point where you're like, yeah, I think I wanna go all the way with this.
Kelly Harbour: I was feeling ready. The year that I became the chief as it happens, and I had been talking to Beth, uh, who I'd worked alongside for seven years. Mm-hmm. I had no idea that she was going to [00:15:00] leave when she did. And it was genuinely a shock when she told me she was leaving and I was trying to work with her to figure out.
What could a different chief role at Goulston look like? Mm-hmm. Because I very much wanted to stay at Goulston and I didn't know what her plans were. And so I was trying to figure out whether there was another place for me, perhaps, you know, uh uh, just another role, practice management or something else.
And so we were sort of talking. What that could look like, because I was feeling ready. And then, you know, I would say within a couple of months she ended up going over to Intap and I was really fortunate to be in a position where the firm was interested in me taking that role. And I was very interested in taking it as well.
Megan Senese: I, I love that you had this relationship, um, where the two of you were able to talk about your path and it feels very similar to something that perhaps John and I have been through. [00:16:00] 'cause I mean, Jen and I, um, technically before, before we launched our business as co. I reported to Jen. And so that was a big piece too, right?
Of mm-hmm. What was next for me and, and Jen making sure that I got what I needed. And so I loved hearing, seeing that, just to kind of continue seeing that kind of, um, relationship. Um, I just wanted to come all the way back. The monster comment because what I think is hilarious is that monster now, at least for me, is like I haven't seen a Monster full of really good job postings anymore.
It feels kind of junky, but I applied to KPMG through Monster and so people will ask me, you know, how did you get into KPMG? Right out of college? You must have known someone. I'm like, no, I applied to Monster. And so I think it's hilarious. It's. You got this like a very valuable job. Yeah. Um, through Monster.
So I wanted to comment on that. And then I don't know if you saw, but I, I think Jen and I were both kind of [00:17:00] chuckling and I don't know if this is why you were chuckling, Jen, but you said at the beginning, Kelly, that you were burnt out. So then you go and get a new job and go to grad school at the same time.
Yeah. You're like, ah, like burnt out from too many things. But like, lemme just like move and get a new job and like go to grad school and like learn all these new things. So, um. Yeah, it was kind of a little, a little ironic, you know, chuckle it.
Kelly Harbour: What I think is interesting is when I reflect on, uh, Dr. Erin Reeves who spoke at the LMA Northeast Conference, what she said, and what resonated with me so much in her book is it's often not the case that we don't have enough time, we don't have enough energy.
Megan Senese: Yeah.
Kelly Harbour: And the type of work. What I was doing at the advertising agencies was not fueling me in any way. Yes. Mm-hmm. And the work at the firm, number one, I was working longer hours, not, not longer than the advertising, the advertising agency, but you know, it wasn't a nine to five job working at Bingham in [00:18:00] the IT department even.
Um, but I really liked the work and I found it really interesting. And I also. I'm a planner. I knew that I was going to have a child someday. Mm-hmm. And I wanted to get my master's before I had a kid. So, yeah. Yeah. It was a, it was sort of the right time, and again, it was something that really fueled me as opposed to something that drained me.
So, yeah, that's, I, I, it's a, it's an important distinction. Not that there were days when I wasn't tired, but I was really excited about it. The doors that I thought this degree would open for me, and in fact did open for me.
Megan Senese: Yeah, no, I, I love that. And that's such a great reminder and I think any. A person who's kind of going through their career or running their own business or owning their own practice, right?
They'll talk to you about what fuels like we're, I think we're working more technically than we might have been before. And, but it feels different. And so that's a, I kind of forgot about her, her speech, but it was really impactful about [00:19:00] what is giving you energy versus what's an energy sucker. Right?
And so, um, it's super helpful to come back to that all the time. And Jen, you're all about the energy with, with your yoga teaching.
Jen Ramsey: It's inter, it's like I, it's amazing what we make time and space for. Yes. When we love something. Mm-hmm. Yes. You know, and it's like, it's like our body. Is whispering. I, I'm a, I'm a yoga teacher on the side, Kelly, so I get into some of this.
If we just listen, we know. Mm-hmm. We know what, what fuels us and what is purposeful for us. It's just sometimes it's, you know, maybe practicality or reality takes over and it, you know, it's a little bit louder. Like there's the pros and cons and the balance sheet. Well, this makes more sense, but it's like, no, it's down here.
We know. And so I think that's really beautiful that you. Ended up doing something that fuels you. And it's just so important. Life is so short. And I know, speaking of books, I, I, I read an interview, um, a written out interview that you did that [00:20:00] you also like, untamed by Glennon Doyle, which is like one of my favorite books.
Yep. Life changing book. It kind of ties into what we're saying 'cause at the beginning of the book, Megan, I don't know if you've read it. I, I
Megan Senese: haven't actually.
Jen Ramsey: Tell me, she Glennon talks about how she is at a zoo with her child, I think, and Kelly, if I'm, I haven't read the book in a year, a couple years, but, and you know, the, the zookeeper is basically trying to get the cheetah to, you know, do certain things right, to make the crowd watching this cheetah, you know, cheer and be excited.
After all of this craziness, this cheetah running back, you know, chasing some stuffed animal bunny or whatever it is, you know, Glennon basically stops herself and she is like, what? Like what is happening here? This is a goddamn cheetah. Mm-hmm. Cheah is not supposed to be rocked up and caged. Right. That's the name of the book, untamed.
Um, you know, like, and this kind of flows with [00:21:00] this theme that we're talking about with Kelly, like finding purpose and passion and like being who we are actually meant to be. Yeah. Like the poor cheetah's supposed to be a cheetah out in the wild. Right. Versus at the zoo, like doing little things to make the crowd.
Cheers. So I just, I love that, that commonality that we have. Kelly, I love, I love that book so much and I love that podcast. So good. Thank you for indulging me on that little digression. Yeah.
Megan Senese: So as we're, as we're kind of talking about, you know, animals and, and, and purpose and Yeah. All these things we can do. Oh, thanks.
All the things we, we can we're, we are planning on asking all of our guests. What makes you human? What adds to your life? Where's your purpose? We're really trying to focus on, you know, the legal, the human side of the legal industry. And so I'm gonna ask you that question, which is kind of a, sort of like a big
Kelly Harbour: one, big question. Uh, you know, I think it's that I am a. Sort of bumbling, [00:22:00] imperfect person, but I'm, I'm trying, and I, you know, I just approach things with a lot of humility and gratitude and, um, you know, I, I think genuinely most people are doing the best they can every single day and some days go better than others. And I, I think that's.
That's, that's it. I'm clumsy and awkward. Trying really hard. Oh my God. I wish, I wish you could have been our
Jen Ramsey: chief marketing officer.
I mean, see, I, I'm very, I'm very sentimental and I would almost like that it is beautiful. I mean, I love that because it's so true.
Megan Senese: Yeah. Like
Jen Ramsey: That's all like really, like at the end of the day, John Wooden, he was this very famous coach for UCLA men's basketball. And, um, he would, he, there's this [00:23:00] beautiful, I gotta find the, the thing or whatever, I'll send it to you, Kelly.
But it was like, you know, how do you define success? And it's like, did you try your best today? Uh, did you try your best today? That's it. Yeah. If I can look in the mirror and say, yes, I did. I tried my very best today. Like what you just said. You try your best. Then how amazing is that? Like that's all we can ask for, right?
Yeah. From ourselves and then from our, the people around us and our teams and our friends, and I just, I love, I love that answer.
Megan Senese: Thank you for sharing that. So I think a lot of us legal marketers would love to know, maybe for, maybe for hilarity, maybe for commiserate. I'm not sure. What's the most demanding request that you have received?
Now, I was gonna insert a lawyer, but maybe it's a client from a client. And how did you handle it?
Kelly Harbour: So I'm gonna cheat a little bit because this is going back to my advertising agency days. Those were the days of the most demanding [00:24:00] thing. Crazy things. We could have a whole lot to say about that. But the one of the most demanding was I was working on an account for, uh, a large public company client.
And they were having a big conference, um, at a hotel. And so there were all of these attendees from across the country that worked for the company, and they had a photo taken. As they had checked in on the first day, we had pre-printed their internal newsletters, which were basically like real paper size and the front page of everyone's internal newsletter had to have that person's photo.
From that day delivered outside their hotel room door. Like tailored before the next morning? Yes. So it would be so like mine
Megan Senese: would have Megan on the front. Okay.
Kelly Harbour: Yes. So you would open your hotel room door in the morning, the following morning [00:25:00] and it would say,
Megan Senese: sounds delightful.
Kelly Harbour: Megan arrives at the conference in Miami.
Megan Senese: Sure. Great idea. Execution sounds like a nightmare. Okay.
Kelly Harbour: And you know, this was in 2001. 2002 maybe. So technology was not exactly what it is today. So we were literally up all night making sure we had the right photo with the right person to the right hotel room, zero sleep. Um, and it was, you know, it was really intense and kind of terrible.
And I slept for like two days after, um, this whole, 'cause I had a whole day to work after that as well. Oh my gosh. Um, but you know what it is, what it taught me and what the CEO was really trying to do was to introduce surprise and delight. And so it also, you know, it, it taught me perhaps not at the expense of, of people's wellbeing, [00:26:00] but maybe we could have had a second shift that was ready to do the night shift.
But, um, but it, you know, it, it taught me the value of creating a special experience in events. Um, and just doing those, those little things to make a difference and to make people feel included. And, um. Excited and, and just a little bit like, how in the world did they make this happen?
Megan Senese: Yeah. Did people like it?
I don't know. I was, I was in the, I was in the bowels of the hotel working on the next thing, whatever it was. Sure, sure. I didn't see anyone's face when they got their paper. Um, but I can, I can imagine some people probably didn't give it a second thought and didn't think about what went into it. Um, but I, you know, it did teach me something about that.
Just a little extra. I mean, it's beautiful. Yes, sure.
Megan Senese: Did you ever try to replicate it again with the current life of technology where you can do everything kind of instant?
No. And don't give anyone [00:27:00] any ideas.
Megan Senese: The next question is something that I feel like women get asked a lot, and so you can decide, you know, if you wanna answer it about how work life balance has evolved, you know, over your life, over the course of your career. Um. And yeah. Do you
Jen Ramsey: think that men get asked that question?
Megan Senese: No.
Jen Ramsey: Do men get asked that question?
I don't think so. Just outta curiosity, you know, question. I'd be interested in how a man would answer it, but anyway. I, what do you, yeah,
it's changed a lot, although you can tell that, you know, from the early stages of my career and the reason that I left the advertising agencies was I, you know, even as a, a 20 something with really no personal commitments, I, you know, realize there's more to life than work.
Um, so I, it's always. It's always been a factor in, in my thinking and decision making. What really blew it open for me was COVID. You know, I was at that point I was an associate director, maybe a director at Goulston at that point, and I, [00:28:00] I had been given very recently prior to COVID, um, or maybe right after.
It was all around the same time. Again, sort of a confluence of things. I had done a 360. And the toughest feedback that I got was that people felt like I didn't do as I say, especially with respect to boundaries and work-life balance. And it was true. So, I mean, to say, I, I would say, oh, you know, Megan, you gotta leave early for, you know, to take a kid to a doctor's appointment or go to a game or, great.
And I, and I genuinely meant it, but I was doing something different and I was. I was not exercising those same rights in the same way. And I was, and I thought that was the right model, to be in early, stay late. Don't ask anyone to do anything you wouldn't do. Um, don't ask anyone to work any harder than you're working.
And then when COVID happened, my daughter [00:29:00] was just almost not quite three, and she was running around at my feet. For, you know, it was a couple of months that felt like a thousand years, and I just felt entirely broken because I couldn't, I couldn't set the example that way anymore. I couldn't be a pace setter, and I had to be really choosy about how I spend my time and I had to really rebuild.
What I thought that leading meant, and it came to a head when Beth sent all of us the book, Who Moved My Cheese, and I had read it before I knew what it was. I opened the box and I wanted to throw it out the window because all I wanted was for the cheese to be where the cheese had been. And we had our book club discussion about it and.
I, and I said that, I said [00:30:00] I, I used to sniff or, you know, try and find what's around the corner and I'm gonna, you know, be at the forefront and whatever. And, and I said I'd give anything to go back to where the cheese was. And I feel like I'm failing and I don't feel like I'm being a good parent. I don't feel like I'm being a good employee.
Um, and I had never been that vulnerable with people at work. And of course, because they're all nice human beings. They all said, what are you talking about? You're, you know, you're doing great. Of course, of course. I was the only person on the team who had a young child, and so it wasn't like everybody was in this position.
And COVID was hard for everyone, regardless of what your circumstance was. Sure, yeah. But nobody was in exactly the same position I was. Even people with kids, their kids were older and more self-sufficient and so, you know, I knew people were working harder and longer. Then I was, and it was really, really hard for me.
But it was [00:31:00] really then that I just felt like my, every my, my understanding of what leading was was just completely leveled and it was really rebuilt, starting with that vulnerability. And so as much as it was a horrible time, I am so much of a better leader. Having been on the other side and having realized how powerful.
That vulnerability can be. And since then I've been much more open, consistent about my needs, my boundaries, um, you know, what I need to be, where I need to be, protecting those things, um, and, and making sure that I am. In fact, doing what I want other people to do.
Megan Senese: Yeah, I, I totally understand where you're coming from.
And I think, you know, Jen and I, we've talked about this in the past too, and I don't think, I think it wasn't until [00:32:00] more recently where I was like, no, COVID was the worst time of my entire life. Mm-hmm. And you had said something similar, Jen, we were like, really? Because I didn't. You were like not. I was working so hard.
Right. And I had, I had two babies basically. Um, I was working in two minute intervals, like literally two minute intervals. Yeah. And I think COVID opened up. So many things for so many people, parents in particular. Um, but that's really what put me on the path of being like, I, I always wanted to be A CMO and that was like, Nope, I don't wanna do this anymore.
Yeah. And I, and I think in a lot of ways that probably was what put you on the path too, John, of like something else. Like, we need something else in our lives. And, um. And it opened up space for people just to really start talking about what was really important and it didn't work. Right. Right. And that, that changed a lot of things for people.
Jen Ramsey: I think. I was just gonna say, Kelly, um, I, I think it's really cool, for lack of a better word, that you did a, that you do 360 Yeah. [00:33:00] View, I mean, that's pretty amazing in and of itself. And then to receive the feedback that you did, 'cause that's. That's, um, some powerful feedback, right? Mm-hmm. And that's, it's like, woo, can I put myself in your shoes?
Like, okay. I mean, the fact that your people felt safe, safe to say that to you too. Yeah. I think it's, it's such a testament to the type of leader that you are.
Megan Senese: Yeah.
Jen Ramsey: Right? I mean, and, and I know that your leadership was leveled and you learned a new way to lead through vulnerability, which is, which is amazing and beautiful, but like, wow, I don't know.
I've never worked anywhere where there have been three. 60 reviews, except now that I'm in business for myself, I review myself every single day. But, um, you know, I think that that's, that's, um, that's a really interesting tool. Do you outta curiosity, do you still do that?
Kelly Harbour: Um, I haven't done it. It was, um, it was part of a coaching engagement that I had where I did the [00:34:00] 360 and it was something that I asked for at Guston and they agreed to do.
Um, and it did really open my eyes to wanting to get feedback and I, I have asked for feedback repeatedly since then, and it's really hard, even when you have relationships with people and you think they should be comfortable to tell you, but it's, I, I get it. It's a, it's a power dynamic and you worry, and you know, again, it's like no matter how much you say, I really want the feedback, I really want the feedback.
It's a little intimidating. I, I think having a formal process helps, um, as opposed to just, I would like to get more real time feedback, um, all the time, but, well, maybe not all the time, but once in a while. Um, right. But I, I think having a formal process, um, number one, you know, you're getting that consistent.
You're asking people the same questions, different people, the same questions, and getting that sort of [00:35:00] different perspective on the same topic. Um, and so I think there's a lot of value in it. I haven't done it again. I would absolutely be interested in doing it. We'll see.
Jen Ramsey: I love, this is part of the, um, interview I read that you did previously, Kelly, about your motto of Be kind in thought and action.
Mm-hmm. Which I just actually, I had. I had not heard that before. Is it, I don't know if it's a quote, maybe it's just a motto that you came up with.
Kelly Harbour: I think so. I think
Jen Ramsey: It's just something, whoa, I love that. I love it.
Kelly Harbour: It's, you know, I am, I am very much human and so some days, again, I do better than others.
Um, but it really is. I read something that just struck me as so true, and I, I'm forgetting where I read it, but it essentially said, we tend to give an unfavorable interpretation. To other people's actions and the most favorable interpretation to our own. Hmm. And so, you know, if you think of this [00:36:00] as somebody's late to a meeting with me and you think, wow, they really couldn't bother to get themselves in the door on time, but if I'm late, I think I was, you know, I was racing from conference room to conference room and you know, I'm lucky I made it only two minutes late.
It's that type of thing, and it's the. It was in a situation where I, I, um, I was climbing the ladder of inference on something where there was something observable that had happened, and I was creating a narrative about why, and it was, and I was talking it through with someone and, and we just sort of came back to, what do you know?
What do you know to be true? And you don't know the intention, you don't know what led to, you know, said event. And so don't fill in those gaps and just offer people that same grace that you would want people to offer you in, in what you're doing. And you know, it's just the way, [00:37:00] it's just the way to try to live.
You know, like I said, I just found that. People really are trying to do their best. And if you approach things with empathy and give people the benefit of the doubt, it, you know, it doesn't make you naive or you know, or what have you. I think it's just, uh, just try, you know, just try to meet people where they are, accept other people's humanity too, and, and don't, don't create the narrative when you don't have the evidence.
Wow.
Jen Ramsey: Yeah. Okay. Mic drop. I'm my
Megan Senese: drop in here. Oh my gosh. This has been so, so, so amazing. And I feel so lucky that first of all, I'm like, this is my job that I get to do this. Like, this is amazing and that's great. You said yes and that we've gotten to know you and I got to know you even better. And um, I know I send you a bajillion things on Instagram, so it's nice to be able to talk to each other or talk to each other and really get to yes.
Find out more about you and your journey. And I feel, I think we both [00:38:00] feel really just thankful that you agreed and, um, really excited to put this like, gift out into the podcast universe. Yeah.
Kelly Harbour: Well, I am really grateful that you asked me. Um, I, I knew it was just going to be a delight because of the two of you.
So, um, so thank you for doing this podcast. My gosh. Which I think, oh my gosh, is really also. A great idea and a great gift, and so, and I am. Delighted to be a part of it.
Megan Senese: So thank you for joining us. This is where I get to be like, like, and subscribe and follow. And if people wanna connect with you, they can reach out to you, you know, on LinkedIn.
Yes. And Jen, do you wanna sign us off? Stay human.
Jen Ramsey: Stay inspired in, in my, my yogi tradition. Namaste, or whatever else keeps
Megan Senese: you human. That's it for today. Join us next time on So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. If you're looking for some additional support, contact [00:39:00] us at www dot stage guide.