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Whether you’re a leader or an independent contributor at work, you can become the CEO of your own well-being. On this episode, Deloitte chief well-being officer Jen Fisher talks with Naz Beheshti, an executive wellness coach, corporate wellness consultant, speaker, writer, change agent, and wellness warrior. She's also the author of the book, Pause. Breathe. Choose.: Become the CEO of your well-being.
The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
How to become the CEO of your well-being with Naz Beheshti
Jen Fisher (Jen): I recently wrote an article called, "How to be the Chief Well-being Officer of your own life?" but I'll admit it, sometimes I need the advice on how to do it as much as anyone else. Right now, we're all feeling burned out, unmotivated, and downright over it.
Now is the perfect time to remind ourselves how to make our own well-being a priority. This is the WorkWell podcast series.
Hi, I'm Jen Fischer, Chief Well-being Officer for Deloitte and I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things well-being. I'm here with Naz Beheshti. She is an executive Wellness coach, corporate Wellness consultant, speaker, writer, change agent, and Wellness warrior. She's also the author of the book, Pause, Breathe, Choose: Become the CEO of your well-being. Naz, welcome to the show.
Naz Beheshti (Naz): Thank you so much for having me, Jen.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to start with who is Naz? Tell us your story and tell me how you became passionate about well-being.
Naz: Well, I am an executive wellness coach and corporate wellness consultant. I started my own company, Prananaz about a decade ago after I felt that there was a huge gap in need for corporate wellness and a focus on employee well-being and leadership effectiveness. I started my career, my first job out of college was as Steve Jobs' executive assistant, and it was a very stressful and an intense job, especially for a young person out of college who didn't have any other job to compare it to. I continued working at other large corporations as well as a small tech startup, so I had a diverse range of experience in Corporate America before I started my own company. In the meantime, I was just so stressed and on the verge of burnout and my colleagues were all experiencing similar stresses. Not having any of the tools or strategies to be able to manage and cope with everyday stresses of work in life and really know how to build resilience like that was completely lacking back then. So, I started meditation practice and yoga practice which were really helpful tools for me. They were really my guiding tools in terms of being well and doing well because it really gave me such great clarity of thought, peace, internal peace, flexibility, strength both in mind and body, to me those were kind of my tools. I went back to school to become a certified holistic health coach, also certified transformational coach and an advanced NLP practitioner. Putting all those trainings along with my psychology background together, I decided to start my own company and leave the corporate world, which part of it was, there was something missing. I loved all the skills I learned in all the different companies and a lot of experience, however, I really wanted to start my own business to help people that were similar to me, which was the majority of the workforce who were experiencing stress and burnout. So, I started Prananaz, and I haven't
looked back. Truly, I found my passion and my purpose. I was able to discover that luckily, and then have the courage to pursue it and create a profession out of my passion. I'm super grateful every single day that I get to live my passion and purpose.
Jen: Yeah, I know how that feels. I feel the same way about my role at Deloitte. So, you mentioned that you worked for Steve Jobs as your first role out of college. Is there anything in particular that you learned from him that has influenced your approach to work in life?
Naz: Absolutely. He was highly influential in my life; I mean my first boss and mentor. Then looking back as he always says, you can only connect the dots looking backward. In hindsight, he really taught me all the healthy habits for high performance that I carry with me today and have created a business around. It seems he had cracked the code way back then when people were talking about holistic well-being. Nobody was really talking about it then or practicing it and he truly was. As much as people don't have that insight into him or never did, but I worked closely, up close and personally with him. I witnessed his daily mindfulness practice, eating healthy, exercising several times a day or week. He had adopted a healthy lifestyle. He more than anyone showed by example, that in order to do well, you must be well and that well-being drives success. I've really developed my company around this philosophy because I truly, truly believe that.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Did he promote that to others? Obviously he was a role model, but was that part of his leadership style as well?
Naz: Only by example, so the people that were very close with him, the exec team. I was in his office every day, so I saw it. It wasn't something like how today people are promoting employee well-being and corporate wellness programs, it wasn't as common back then. He was doing it mostly for himself and whoever wanted to emulate that would because they could learn by example. People looked up to Steve and his visionary outlook and just his creativity. A lot of that stems from taking care of yourself and having clarity of mind; mindfulness practice in general can really promote creativity and innovation.
Jen: So, you wrote a book and it's called Pause, Breathe, Choose. Tell me a little bit more about the book and what that means to you.
Naz: The book was really inspired by all of my teachings for over a decade working with clients, executives on an individual one-on-one coaching basis, as well as going into companies of all sizes and implementing corporate wellness programs. Like I said, it all started from helping manage stress and building resilience. Even though my company practices a very holistic approach to well-being, and we don't look or focus on one area aspect of one's life or one area of your well-being, it's really all-encompassing and holistic. The main key pillars that drove most of the programs and where there was much need, was around mindfulness, stress management, and passion and purpose. I developed a method called the “MAP method” and in my teachings and programs and workshops, I got such great response from what I was putting out there. I really based my book on what I've been teaching my clients for over a decade and the books framework is around my framework of teaching, which is the MAP method. “M” stands for Master mindfulness, and that's fundamental to the method in order to make better choices and just live a better life. “A” stands for Applying better choices for managing stress and building resilience, and there are seven A’s. The “P” stands for Promote yourself to CEO of your well-being, and the three P’s. When you put that framework together and practice the seven A’s, have a mindfulness practice, implement the seven A’s and the three P’s, it's a framework, a holistic framework to live your best life. That's really how I put together all of my teachings and programs that have been really effective. It's been a proven effective method for the past decade and I'm
really excited to put it out there for the masses, for people to have access to it without having to hire me as a consultant or coach.
Jen: Well, thank you for that and congratulations. You sound like you have a background in management consulting with the seven A’s and the three P’s, and the framework (laughs). I think that will resonate with our listeners. So, you talked about working kind of with many different clients across many different industries with all kinds of different leaders. What is it that you think leaders get wrong about well-being in the workplace?
Naz: That's an excellent question. I think what they get wrong is that they think that everybody else should be practicing it. It’s just something to check mark the box that, “Oh, we're doing a wellness program”, but then, they're disengaged, they're not a part of it.
There's no buy in from the top. Leaders are there to lead and lead by example. If they're not actually participating and engaged in the program themselves, their team members may think it's not as important. Maybe they'll be seen as slacking off, if they take time to actually take a lunch or do some exercise or go out for a walk in the middle of the work day or whatever the case or just logging off at a decent hour at the end of the day. If the leaders aren't emulating the behavior that they want to see or want their team to practice, it's much more difficult for the company to adopt these healthier habits and lifestyle because they should be looking at it from the top. Top down approach is always more effective than just handing it off to HR and having HR figure it out on their own. It shouldn't be siloed, it should be completely engaged with the entire company.
Jen: Leaders need selfcare too, right? To be great, sustainable leaders.
Naz: Absolutely.
Jen: So, how do you get them to change their mindset around this?
Naz: Well, to your point that they need selfcare and to take care of themselves is to start small. When I coach one-on-one, I work very small steps taking small incremental steps. So, when they realize the benefit of doing something small for themselves, whether it's incorporating exercise or eating better or more sleep, and they see the benefits of how they feel, how they perform, the host of benefits that come with taking care of yourself, that promotes intrinsic motivation for them to keep going. I had a client the other day who hadn't taken a vacation for years and he did a staycation…took a long weekend and he came back. It was just three days off unplugged, took off with his dog and just went out in the woods and did some hikes, you know, just unplugged. Came back and I had a session with him the following weekend, he says, “I cannot believe how good I feel and how different it is just to take a short amount of time off. I'm going to continue doing that”, so he felt the benefit immediately. That gave him motivation to keep that up and then it actually motivated him to add more. I always start with tiny steps, but then I add to those steps once they adopt that as a habit. Then I build on that step to create a new habit and then a new habit instead of giving them a bunch of things they need to do or need to stop doing, which is overwhelming in itself. So, small steps for sustainable success is the way to go.
Jen: Love it and habit stacking. I love that.
Naz: Yes.
Jen: So, you talked a little bit about your own story and what you were seeing around you at the time related to workplace burnout. Obviously, since then, burnout has been designated mental and psychological diagnosis by the World Health Organization. It's an
epidemic in the workplace and now pandemic fatigue, I think, is really exacerbating the issue for so many people. What can we do to help prevent ourselves from burning out?
Naz: There's so many things you can do. The best advice is to find what works for you. My book offers over 80 proven strategies to avoid burnout and to adopt mindfulness.
Jen: What are your top 5 then?
Naz: The top 5, I would say, is to start with a morning routine or block out some time in your day to do whatever it is that makes you feel good. Have some time for yourself. I have a morning routine; I call it the “RPM squared”. I Rise, Pee and Meditate for 20 followed by 20 minutes of movement. The reason I shared a little “TMI” there was because to build a habit that lasts, and stick is to attach it to a habit that you already do every day. Whether it’s waking up and going to the restroom the first thing in the morning or brushing your teeth or drinking coffee, so that becomes a prompt or a trigger according to BJ Fogg's Tiny Habits, which I love. When you attach it to something you're already doing and you make it really small, you have better chance of success because you don't need that intrinsic motivation of tackling something big like, “Oh, I'm going to meditate now for 20 minutes”. I would never suggest to start with 20 minutes if you don't have a meditation practice. I would suggest to start with 2 minutes, just sitting still focusing on your breath. Whatever it is for you. The best thing I do with my clients is I sit there while we're in the session and say, “Okay, look at your calendar. What block of time can you commit to every single day?”. Whether it's in the morning or in the evening, whatever looks best for you. Whatever you can stick to, block that off in your calendar. I always talk about how everything on your calendar is so important, but you are just as important if not, in my opinion, more important than anything on your calendar. For you to take care of yourself makes you a better leader, makes you a better partner or parent, or whatever role you have in this world. You can come as your best self when you are taking care of yourself. So, meditation is one, exercise moving your body. I like to practice mindful self-check-ins throughout the day, which are rapid fire questions that I ask myself throughout the day sporadically. I just ask, “Am I breathing? Am I thirsty? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What is my posture?” and I correct myself. I auto correct. I drink my water. I sit up straight. I take mindful breaths so just mindful self-check-ins throughout the day. Then lastly, one of my favorites is a gratitude practice. I bring gratitude to the dinner table every night with my husband and ask him, “What are you most grateful for that happened today?” and we share our gratitude. If you don't have anyone that you sit with at the dinner table, you could journal your gratitude. You could also have a gratitude buddy and commit to sharing one to three things every day through a phone call or text or however you want to do it, or just journal it on your own. Gratitude is linked to happiness and it's really impossible to be angry and
have gratitude at the same time. If you're ever feeling stressed or burnt out or frustrated, think of something you're grateful for. Some days I have to be honest, I think God, there's nothing to be grateful for today (Laughs). Totally hard, but then I force myself that there's got to be something and then that makes you feel better. That seems like a point of accomplishment. When you think there's nothing to be grateful for and you force yourself to think of something because there always is something. You just need to look at your life through a different lens, a positive lens.
Jen: Let's talk about boundaries and saying no, in particular, in kind of high-performance cultures or high performing individuals. I know I struggle with it, even though I know what to do, I know what to say. It's really hard to say no sometimes because we feel like we're letting other people down. So, let's talk about that.
Naz: Yeah, that's a good one. So many my clients have that problem as well, like just it's a challenge. It's just that you really need to get in the mindset, shift that mindset of, if you
don't say no, what is alternative? If you keep saying yes, yes, yes to everything, you're going to have so much on your plate. Not only are you going to compromise the work because it's just there's only a certain amount of hours in the day, and you can't just keep saying yes to everything, but you're going to compromise your well-being. It becomes counterproductive as much as you don't want to say no, if you shift the perspective of…if you keep saying yes what is going to be the outcome? Is your work going to be as good? Is the outcome of your work going to be as good as if you were to focus on the things that you should focus on and prioritize rather than to keep taking more things on your plate? I highly recommend creating a list of the things that are your highest priorities and equating that to how much time is that going to take of you. How much time and energy? So not just time, but energy. Then prioritizing that, so that you know what you need to focus on, your yeses. Then from there, instead of saying you can't take something else on, you are choosing not to because you're going to focus on what you've already committed to. “Can't” is a little bit disempowering because it seems like you're unable, like you don't have the skills, or you just can't do it. It's not that you can't, it's that you are taking control and charge of your life and your work. You know what you can do, what you've allocated on time and energy wise of what you can do versus what you want to take on but you’re not going to give it you're 100% and you're all because you just are focused on other things. “Can’t” and “choosing not to” is a good mindset shift. Also, delegating the things that you don't necessarily need to do. You might want to take some of those yeses that you're already doing and delegate some of those if you don't necessarily need to do them. Prioritizing all the yeses and looking at them from a holistic lens, in other words.
Jen: If you aren't at a leadership level or for whatever reason, you just don't feel comfortable, what do you suggest in terms of how to have that conversation?
Naz: I just went through this with a client last week and she was very much dreading this difficult conversation. What I had suggested was to make a list of all the things she’s done, the things she is doing currently and the things she foresees being assigned to her, or what is coming in the future. Then prioritize, like color code what she feels is in her strongest skill set area and the other like projects or things that is on that list, items on the list, what she could delegate or what she thinks she could do differently with those. Come to the meeting with her boss with a solution mindset rather than saying, “I have too much on my plate” and complaining about it. Look at it pragmatically and put it in an Excel spreadsheet or just put it out on paper so that your boss can visually see everything. I always say maybe your boss isn't aware of all the things on your plate. You need to communicate that because they're busy doing their own things and they might not know that the employee is getting things, assignments, or projects from other departments or different heads. To put it all in front on a platter for them to see, like this is everything and this is what I suggest. It’s taking initiative and it’s about taking charge of your time and energy and coming with a solution mindset that here's what I think would be best, what do you think? Give them some input instead of just coming in with a negative mindset of I'm exhausted, I have too much on my plate, but here is a solution that I'm thinking.
Jen: I guess on the flip side, if you are a leader of people in the workplace, are there things that leaders can do to create that safe dialogue? That psychological safety and really encourage their employees to have those conversations with them. Truthfully, having those conversations is for the good of everyone, for the good of the company. When employees burnout, it's not just bad for the employee, it's bad for the organization as well. So, what can leaders do?
Naz: Yeah, so psychological safety. Creating that psychological safety for employees to feel comfortable to share is really important for all companies to have a positive and strong company culture and community. I suggest when my executive clients want to connect
more, especially now during COVID feeling so disconnected and not having that kind of physical open-door policy, I suggest having spontaneous check-ins. Even in your scheduled one on one meetings with your direct reports, just asking them, “What's going on? What's new and good? Where can I help support you more? Where do you need support?”. Maybe it's not the actual executive or boss supporting directly, offering support and the resources because it may not come from them. Where do you need support and how could that person, that boss help? It's really about again communicating it and over communicating in the time of living in this virtual world that we're in, where people are feeling very isolated at this time, more so than ever. I highly suggest that they just check in more and not just be about work, but also make it be about their life. We're always on zoom or in the virtual world. We see the kids walk by, the pets walk by, we are like seeing people's kitchens and living rooms. We're very in peoples’ personal lives at this time where remote work and life has been blurred completely and so, why not? If we're seeing all this and hearing all this where we normally didn't pre COVID about their personal lives, why not actually make the intention and intend to be more personal? Ask how people are doing on a personal and professional level.
Jen: Along those lines what can leaders and colleagues do in particular for those employees that are isolated, that don't live with others that don't have family members or roommates or even pets. What are some best practices for making sure that those people are feeling the human connection, albeit virtually?
Naz: One thing that's been working for a lot of my clients, they said they've gotten some good response, that I suggested, is to have a weekly virtual lunch…this or coffee, whatever if you don't want to eat in front of the camera, it could be a little awkward (laughs). A weekly virtual gathering that is optional. You do not have to come, because some people might think, “Oh, another virtual event” or whatever the case. If you just plan something on the calendar that's standing just between your team members, something intimate, not like a huge gathering, but just between your smaller team, people can have the choice to gather. Just show up and have conversation not about work necessarily, but just having a coffee break or a lunch break and just connecting. That's one way to do a group connection like that, that people can just hop on, and they'll have some of their colleagues there or do a one on one connection. There are apps out there that promote connection between people, whether it's professional or personal, that you can connect on a weekly or daily, however often basis. Keep that personal connection alive, even at work in the professional environment.
Jen: Are there things in this environment that we should be looking for in others? If they're not raising their hand and asking for help or openly saying that they need something. It's a lot easier in person to see when someone's behavior changes. What does that look like in a virtual world?
Naz: That looks like someone being disengaged, not speaking up, being extra quiet, not responding in the way that they used to. If you see a shift in behavior…you know this person used to be a bit more outgoing or more bubbly or whatever the case, pre COVID and now you have noticed a shift. Whether it's the opposite like I said disengaged or more quiet, that is a symptom of depression actually. You want to be aware of what's not being said because most people who are depressed and who are alone kind of stick to themselves, stay with themselves, and don't have the courage or whatever to raise their hand and say, “I need help”. Maybe they don't even know they need help so, they could just be slipping into chronic stress or depression. That's why it's really important for leaders to keep tabs and in those one on one meetings really check in on a personal basis, individual basis to see how people are doing. If they notice that their attitudes or their mindset about things have kind of shifted in a way that's not typical for that person, they need some help. You need to
check in with them and ask how things are going and get them the resources because they could be slipping into chronic stress or depression.
Jen: Let's switch gears a little bit. Obviously, you're a very busy professional and you spend a lot of your time helping others help themselves and practice selfcare. So, you talked a little bit about RPM squared, right? That's what it was called? How else do you personally incorporate well-being into your life?
Naz: Well, well-being is my non-negotiable. The way I start my day is everything to me if I wake up and skip RPM, which I typically do not do…my RPM squared is non-negotiable for me. Sometimes there are some things that need my attention super early in the morning and I don't sacrifice my sleep. I'll take that time for my sleep rather than waking up even earlier to do what I need to do, but that morning ritual is non-negotiable. I do that and then I also eat really healthy. I eat really organic, clean foods and foods that most likely don't come in a package that I can't pronounce the ingredients. I just try to be as clean as possible and that sustains my energy levels, because I talk about energy versus time management. For me, you are what you eat. When I eat crappy food for example, that just is not really even food, which I don't do anymore, but I used to and so I do know what it's like to eat foods that don't actually nourish you, that don't have the proper nutrients to actually nourish you. It's kind of like fake food, it's not really food, I'm talking about convenient foods that you get on the run. I'm very, very mindful of what goes into my body, what I consume and then also what goes into my body in terms of my thoughts. Mindset and behavior for me and the choices that you make every day are critical in how you show up in the world. For me, because my mindfulness practice has made me super aware, so I have high self-awareness, I catch myself when I let my inner critic kind of take over for a minute, and then I realized, “Oh, that's my inner critic talking and I'm going to no longer pay attention to it” and then hone into my inner coach. My inner coach, who tells me to take a pause. I use a pause, breathe, choose method, the title of my book all day long. I take a pause when I see that I'm spiraling and letting my inner critic get the best of me. I have to have that mindfulness to know that I need to take that pause, because if not, I would let that inner critic just keep going. I would listen to it and feed it…basically the dog that you feed, which is the bad dog, the inner critic that I talk about in my book, is the life that you lead. I choose to feed the good dog, which is the inner coach, but sometimes inner critic kind of gets in there and I had to quiet it down by feeding the inner coach. My mindset and my behaviors are the two things I'm very, very aware of throughout the day in terms of my well-being. So, that accounts for my meditation, the food I eat, my sleep is extremely important to me. I need at least 8 hours of sleep, minimum 7, but preferably 8 or even 9.
Some people might be gasping right now, but I need my sleep and I treasure my sleep.
Jen: I'm not gasping at all, I'm right there with you. Sleep is one of my favorite things to talk about, and one of my favorite things to do (laughs).
Naz: Oh good, me too. Oh my gosh, I love it…because so many executives that I coached, they wear their lack of sleep like a badge of honor, “I only got four or five hours of sleep”. I'm like really, “How's that going for you? How are you performing?”. Sometimes people do need less sleep, so I'm not going to say that they're wrong, but what I do challenge people who say they only need four or five hours of sleep…I say, “How about tonight and for the next week try to increase it by 30 minutes or even an hour and see how that feels. Do you feel differently?”. Most of the time, they can't even believe what an extra 30 to 60 minutes does for them. When you don't know you don't know, right? It's about giving them a glimpse, experience and taste of what it feels like, what the benefits are rather than me telling them what they are. Experience it for yourself and then you tell me what it's all about instead of me telling you.
Jen: Absolutely. I tell people if you just go to bed 20 minutes earlier every night for a year, you're getting over 5000 more minutes of sleep than you did in the prior year. The impact that has on your daily life and how you show up, but also your long-term health…I mean it's monumental. Back to your point earlier, tiny habits, right? 20 or 30 minutes makes a huge difference. Of course, I'd love it if everybody got between seven and eight hours but if they can just add on 20 or 30 minutes, I'll take it (laughs).
Naz: I completely agree, I couldn't agree with you more. I had the honor of working with, I don't know if you know Dr. Matthew Walker, the author of Why We Sleep. I worked with him briefly at UC Berkeley many years ago. He says, in order to get restorative sleep, you must ask yourself one question…Can you wake up without an alarm and not rely on caffeine or stimulants for the rest of the day and be good like function well for the whole day. If you answer yes to that, you're getting restorative sleep. If you can't wake up without an alarm and you need the caffeine or stimulants to get you through the day, then you're not getting restorative sleep. I love that because that is a good indicator based on his research, whether you're getting good sleep or not. He also says that sleep is the single most effective way to reboot basically all the cells in your body, every night and you need that.
You need to reboot every night. People who pull all-nighters or sacrificed their sleep, in order to make a deadline or do whatever they need to do, is actually doing themselves a disservice. There's been a ton of research that says even if you're not prepared, whether you’re student and studying for an exam or you're about to go give a pitch at work or whatever the case, it's better to be refreshed and sleep than to use those extra hours and sacrifice your sleep to prepare for whatever it is that you're preparing for the next day. The sleep supersedes that.
Jen: Absolutely. None of us want to get operated on by a surgeon that that is completely sleep deprived. We don't want a pilot that's completely sleep deprived. I mean, there are so many professions that for a long time have recognized this. In the corporate world, we tend to kind of celebrate the person that stays up and pulls an all-nighter without realizing the harm that they're doing to themselves, but also the work product. It's kind of a lose, lose, not a win, win.
Naz: Exactly, that's why we're speaking the same language.
Jen: We could go on forever, but I have one final question. You may have already answered this with the things that you said but do you have a personal definition of well-being?
Naz: Yeah, well-being for me is being happy, energized, engaged in all areas of your life. A lot of people think of well-being as health and wellness and it's just like one area of your life. For me, it's having healthy relationships. It's having a fulfilling career and a sense of purpose. It's having a mindfulness practice or again sense of purpose, whatever that means for you. It's eating well, it's sleeping and getting good. It's exercising regularly. All of that combined to me, well-being is a very holistic approach to showing up as your best self, fully engaged, happy and healthy in all areas of your life.
Jen: I love it and I can't think of a better note to end on than that one. Thank you Naz, so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us on the show today.
Naz: Thank you so much Jen, was such a pleasure to speak with you.
Jen: I am so grateful Naz could be with us today to talk about well-being in leadership. Thank you to our producers and our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast series on Deloitte.com or you can visit various podcatchers using the keyword WorkWell, all one word, to hear more. If you like the show, don’t forget to subscribe so you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you would like to hear on the WorkWell podcast series
or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher, or on Twitter @jenfish23. We are always open to your recommendations and feedback. And of course, if you like what you hear, please share, post, and like this podcast. Thank you and be well.