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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I'd like to invite you to take
a moment, a moment in time,
a moment within this minute,
to breathe into your body
in this moment, within this
minute, to exhale in your body,
finding grounding, finding a
center, finding your true north,
breathing in and once again breathing
out this moment within this minute,
offering you a chance to check
in with your emotional heart.
expanding into the seat of all emotions
and simply allowing them to arise.
Breathing in and breathing out, witnessing
the quickness and the pace of all the
emotions, all the body sensations.
And within this moment, Within
this minute, offering you a
chance to simply slow down,
slowing down the thought,
slowing down the body sensation,
and inviting you to be present to
this moment within this minute.
And as you continue to breathe
in and continue to breathe out,
allow yourself the gentleness, the
compassion, and the understanding
to meet yourself right where you are
taking a moment within this
minute to meet yourself.
And now with no rush, no sense of urgency,
finding yourself in the position you are,
taking the moment to open your eyes
once again, connect to your breath,
connect to your surroundings.
Welcome to The Psychedelic Psychologist.
Hi, I'm Dr.
Ryan Westrom.
I'm a doctor of psychology.
I'm the founder of Healing Souls,
author of the Psychedelics Integration
Handbook, and your host for this podcast.
I'm going to invite guests who have either
explored psychedelics for recreational or
therapeutic reasons, and or are planning
in the future to use these medicines.
Purpose of this journey is to incorporate
a blend of body, mind, and thoughts.
And emotionally focused conversations
and practical suggestions that offer you
the listener insight into the importance
of intentional use of psychedelics.
We cover a vast spectrum of topics from
overcoming addiction and severe depression
to finding ways of spiritual connection.
You're going to hear about their
experiences, what they saw, what they
felt, and how that translates to healing
and personal transformation opportunities.
Join me today.
Where I have the deep honor and
humble privilege to talk with Ray and
Giuseppe, a couple, welcome you guys.
Thank you.
so much.
So this is, yeah, this is
a beautiful conversation.
I want to share with the listeners,
Giuseppe, you're in Rome.
Yes, I'm Rome currently.
And Ray, you're in Berlin.
Exactly.
Wonderful.
So we have the connection of
unified conversation about
psychedelics as a couple.
When I talk about psychedelics,
what's the first thing that
comes to mind for you, Giuseppe?
I know you have worked with
the medicine for some time.
What does psychedelics mean to you?
Psychedelics for me are a tool to
discover myself and deal with a
part of my consciousness that is not
quite accessible in the daily life.
daily waking state.
I love that.
I love that example.
Can you share with me how you found
psychedelics and what was the motivation
to start using these medicines?
Yes.
, so, , I had an approach with the
psychedelic in a recreational way.
When, a few years ago, and, actually
at the beginning, I was quite resistant
to psychedelics, so I couldn't
understand them, their therapeutic,,
use, and, , when I first encountered
psychedelics, like, at the beginning,
I didn't quite understood them, and
after a while, I had like, profound use.
What we call bad trip, let's say,
that lasted, three days, nonstop.
So it was quite a challenging
experience that, today I bless because
it reveals all sides of my daily life
that, we're not aligned with, with
my heart, with my intention, with, my
principles and he basically break down
all the, all these parts and reveal
them to me in a really strong way.
In that moment, I didn't quite realize
that it was the beginning of, journey.
But, during, the next years
I increased, the use, always
recreational of psychedelics.
And, eventually I started to get
insights about, about myself.
Until, another event like profoundly,
like, pushed me, down and, in a
really profound state of depression.
So I, I decided, and
that's, in those months.
I decided to, to participate
to, ayahuasca ceremony.
And, that was, the, my real first step
in the, in the use of psychedelics as a,
as a therapy or as a therapeutic mean.
And I appreciate that.
So that one really.
gave me a completely different
understanding of what psychedelics were.
They were not just what the world
perceived, and I was perceiving as a
drug, but, they are , ways to connect with
individual consciousness and universal
consciousness in a, in a way that's,
yeah, that's, Really meaningful to me.
I love everything about what you're
saying Giuseppe and the idea that
you were listening, what gave you the
insight to continue to listen, especially
after that challenging experience,
what provided you the confidence to
continue to listen to the medicines?
So in that, that occasion, I, let's say
that, there was a component of my use,
my recreational use of psychedelics that
was, beyond the entertaining myself, but
it was a really, making me, perceive some
aspects of the words in a different way.
So that.
That was the, the part that really hooked
me up and kept me using, you know, this,
kept me using the substances to, , to
discover more and to look from another
perspective, the everyday reality.
Thank you.
And Ray, you come in with a different
experience and could you share with
me how you found the medicine and
what you see today as psychedelics?
With the medicine, I got in touch just
, three weeks ago, actually, through
Giuseppe one year ago when he did it.
And he told me every detail about it.
I was, , I never heard before about it.
And I was as well really curious and
I did my researches and, of course I
would wanted to, do it, but, I was not
feeling it at this moment one year ago.
It was for me on a different
level, not reachable at this time.
And, but I always knew like the last
month that I want to do it, but I didn't
know when it will be the right time.
But then, I don't know, one month ago,
Giuseppe said, okay, right, I would like
to do it, but, and if you want to do it
with me, I would be happy, but it's on
you, you know, I don't want to push you.
And, the first thing was, again, I was
a bit scared, but then I thought about
it a few hours and I said, okay, if I
really want to do it, I have to, decide.
Now, and I have to prepare myself for
10 days or two weeks ago, I guess.
And yes, and, this made me stronger
to the, to really do this step.
And, I'm really happy that I did it.
Then I was also proud of myself
that I started this journey somehow.
Because, for me it was on a
different level and now I did
it and, I jumped over my fear.
Right.
Ray, you bring up a
really good point though.
Could I ask you to speak
about the invitation?
Because you say something really
important from my vantage point is you
know when the invitation was right and
a year ago it wasn't right, but what did
you acknowledge in yourself about it?
Yeah.
About taking the invitation today.
I was, feeling ready for it.
Then one year ago, I just listened
to myself, to my inner gut.
And, I also grew a lot last
one year within myself.
And, I felt like it was the
right time to do it actually.
I love that.
One of the things I love about you
two as a couple is also, Giuseppe, you
allowed Rae to have her own consent.
So what I know working with you
guys in integration is you didn't
force her to do anything that
she didn't already want to do.
Is that correct?
Yeah, actually, at the beginning, I was
also like a little bit, resistance to, to
invite, you know, or to, to say something
because I was scared to influence
somehow, you know, our own journey.
So, , but then, I told her like, I'm
going to do it, you know, like, because
anyway, there are some, some things
that I really want to, clarify and why
some blockages that I still cannot,
cannot, overcome in,
especially in our relationship.
So I'm going to do it.
And, , if you want, like you can come,
but, otherwise I'm going to go for
this, , But anyway, and then she, she
kind of started to, to think about it.
And, I was so happy when she
decided to, to join because,
yeah, it was really meaningful.
I had these thoughts that, psychedelics
could help, us, , in the relationship.
And, also like, I know Ray,
she used psychedelics before,
not, ayahuasca in this case.
So, , I really, thought that, this
could expand her mindset and, she could
feel comfortable anyway in the, in the
experience, but I never tried too much
to, you know, to actually, I wanted to
be sure that, her consent was full,
full and that she could take the step and
me just indicating the door, speaking
about my own personal experience.
Actually when I did my first,
ayahuasca session, it was, I was
like, starting to speak into a day
tray, not even dates, but we were like
conversing, conversing at the time.
So it was, right.
You know, the beginning of our
relationship and, , she was
so curious about that as well.
So this was an additional, , thought
that, really, led me to think that,
a journey like that could really help.
It's beautiful.
Ray, as having the first experience
to ayahuasca, what did you learn
about yourself and what are
you acknowledging about your
relationship today with Giuseppe?
Yeah, I learned through the plant that,
I don't know, maybe these are the basics.
I'm not sure, but to be grateful, to
be patient, to do everything with love.
This, I really felt deeply during
ayahuasca and just to I don't know to
enjoy more the to see more the love side
of the life, even if there is a problem or
a fight when you do it with love still you
wanna if you have want to have a solution
not going I don't know with More with
positive thoughts and, that you really
want to find a solution, but with love and
not with any other negative, feelings,
I think this taught me a lot, through the
Ayahuasca, I learned this and, exactly,
I don't think that's basic at all, right?
Yeah, that sounds really powerful.
It takes a lot to lead with love
and compassion and patience.
And so, can I ask as a couple,
what would you guys say was
the best part about doing that?
Because I know you said you did it
in the same room, but separately,
what, what was the value of being
together, but not together in this?
Yeah, I would like to start.
It was really good that Giuseppe
was with me in the room.
He was right in front of me, but on the
other side of the room, it was really good
because, I was really excited and scared
at the same time to do my first IOSCA
because I didn't know what will expect me.
And, , through going all of,
this, at one time where I was not
feeling good at all, I think he
heard me at this, , in this moment.
And, he went up and he was like sitting
and kind of meditating and looking at me.
And at this moment, I really felt that he
would be just next to me and helping me.
It was more than enough just to see
that, we are somehow still connected.
And, because of that was really,
really good that he was with me
in my first Ayahuasca ceremony.
That's really beautiful.
Giuseppe, how did you experience
your session and ceremony?
Yeah, exactly.
As, as she mentioned, like, I felt
like a need to be present for her.
And, yeah, my whole, actually my
whole, journey, this, , during the
ceremony was revolving around presence.
And, our presence can be healing.
So it was, being present with myself, with
my family, with my ecosystem of friends
and, partners and, collaborators, but,
also like in, in the relationship so
much, so it came up in the relationship.
So, sometimes I always rush into a
solution, but like mind made solution,
like rational solution, like I analyze
too much a situation, how to do with
this, how to do that, so I start to worry.
And then, during the session, I understood
that just being present, you know, it's
like a big tool to heal and to let go.
the universe flow in a, in
a organized and, healing,
state.
So, yeah, I was really just, trying
to be present in those moments.
It was so, so, bizarre as well that, she
could feel my presence in those moments.
And when she said after, you know, it
was really, for me, it was amazing.
You know, it was the moment that I
wasn't sure until the end, because I
cannot see very well long distance.
So from the other side of the room, I
couldn't see like, if there was a consent
or not in me, like, at the end when,
when the ceremony finished and I wanted
to ask her like how she was, go, go
there, but she was trying to call me
actually, she told me after, but, , I
couldn't really see, then I felt a little
bit my heart and I went, I took a step.
And, and then we ran out, we reunited at
the end of the ceremony was beautiful.
it was really beautiful.
Ray, what was that like?
With my hand, you mean?
Yeah.
At the, nearly at the end, like, yeah, I
was as well, not so sure if he wants to
see me right away or if we should see each
other right now, if he feels the same way.
But I was feeling kind of ready and
of course like you're still really
open and sensitive and you don't
want to step towards a person now
when the person is not ready yet.
But I was like, making hand moves to,
try to connect to Giuseppe because
he was sitting at the, and the other
end of the room and, I did like,
my hand up and I did peace signs,
but I didn't even realize this.
Yeah.
And he, he saw this somehow and
then he came over, it was funny.
So yeah.
And what I'm hearing you say
is to trust in the universe and
also trust in the relationship.
I'm hearing you guys.
Be comfortable in, what would you
tell other couples, considering
wanting to do an ayah ceremony
or a medicine ceremony together?
What would be one thing that
supported you in doing this together?
Maybe from my side, like, What we, we
also, went through at the beginning,
like, in this, this podcast, we were
talking about like me, doing an
invitation, but on one side, I didn't
want to influence, our journey, but
on the other side, I was like kind of
Convinced about what I
was, about to propose to her.
And, sometimes just doing a
first step is not like forcing.
So if, if you need to, if you
believe in something like propose,
invite, open yourself to, to the
other person without being scared.
And then.
Of course, you will know in life, you
know, in life when you have a resistance
from, from a person or from the universe.
So don't, don't try, you know,
don't overthink about it.
Just offer them.
Of course, it's up to the person
to walk through the door or not.
And so, yeah, this, I would have,
asked more, with confidence, maybe.
Yeah, thank you.
Ray, can you, can you repeat the
question again because I Yeah, definitely.
What would you say if there was
couples considering doing this,
what was the most important thing
that provided you reassurance
and safety to make this decision?
Knowing that you were coming in new?
I, I trusted Giuseppe in this case.
That's because I knew what, how he was
after the last two ayahuasca ceremonies.
I think it was this where I
trusted really much in it.
Yeah.
So listening to your heart and
trusting them and also getting enough
space to make your own decision.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, also desire, really discovered during
the ayahuasca ceremony to connect to your
heart and let the mind out of it and,
to hold to your intentions and purposes.
Yeah.
I appreciate all of that.
What are you two doing to
be gentle with each other?
How are you expressing gentleness
to one another as you're
integrating the ceremony,
To give each other more space?
I think I'm not just happy.
Yeah, it's well, came to, things came
out and to my experience and, that are
really grasping when when there, there's
the time and, occasion to do that.
And it's flexibility tolerance.
So like really living space and being
more flexible and not, you know, too much.
As it should be in your, in your
own mind, but like, let's, the, the
universe is self organized itself,
That's really beautiful.
Tell me what's on the psychedelic horizon.
How will you guys know individually
or as a couple when it's
time to do another ceremony?
How will you guys have that conversation?
I think like, the first, ayahuasca
ceremony that I did, like, I really kind
of at the moment when I didn't want,
I wanted to respect the, the medicine.
So I didn't want to, for how beautiful
the experience was and how mind
blowing it was, I didn't want this
to be, you know, another habit,
but like I wanted to develop a
kind of a respect for the medicine.
So I said to myself, You will do it only
when you feel the need, to, to recenter.
This was like my, my point.
So every time I did like a ceremony
was a moment in which I felt like
a little bit lost and I couldn't
solve like, some, some issues.
So I said, let's go back, let's
recenter, let's, Let's, , have, a
chat with yourself and with the
universe and see what's what comes
up and, yeah, it was like that.
So in case I would propose again,
another, session, it would be just, , in
case of recentering, but,, this is for
ayahuasca, but, I would love to experience
other medicines, plants as well.
So in that case, maybe I would be more
driven by curiosity and curiosity.
I would, propose this to, to Ray
as well if she wants to join,
otherwise, like, I will do it alone.
Ray, how will you know it's time
to do it again or what will you
do to ask questions about that?
The last purpose I did, the ayahuasca
was because I wasn't feeling so
much balance with myself and I'm
really happy that I did it because
it changed, my inner balance.
It balanced it.
And, , I think the next time I
will do it will be when I have,
questions, then I need answers.
I think then.
It could be a time again to do a
next IOSCA ceremony for sure, but
right now I have my inner, balance.
Thanks.
That's beautiful.
You guys, I'm deeply humbled by
our time together and I thank
you and I'm really grateful.
I appreciate you too.
Thank you so much, Ryan.
Thank you so much, Ryan.
Thank you for the support.
Yeah.
Be safe and be gentle.