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Learn about the principles and practice of nonviolence as an active force for personal, social, and political change. Co-hosted by Stacie Freasier, Robert Tyrone Lilly, and Jim Crosby, the show covers current events, learning opportunities, and nonviolent direct action taking place locally. Airs 1st Thursdays of every month from 1-2 pm CT at KOOP Community Radio 91.7 FM in Austin, Texas, and streaming online at koop.org.
It's a hot time in the capital come Monday afternoon. It's a moral Monday, and it can't come too soon. It's a hot time for senators who need to change their tune. A hot time to come in Monday afternoon. We're gonna make our voices heard till we can't be ignored.
Speaker 1:Like Moses with a word from the Lord. Nonviolence is our method, justice our only sword, new powers that be know we can't be ignored. We're gonna shut down Alec and its flood of fascist laws. We'll shine a light and mend our country's laws. Here, we'll create democracy that like you never saw.
Speaker 1:Pure frozen hearts are just about to thaw. Let me scroll up just a second here. We'll get the AK's off the streets and our families out of jail. The police union's not too big to fail. Get money out of politics, our votes are not for sale.
Speaker 1:Don't tell us that the check is in the mail. We're gonna fund our public schools and pay teachers to teach, keep libraries full so knowledge is in reach. Will DEI and CRT and exercise free speech find leaders who can practice what they preach? So it's a hot time in the capital come Monday afternoon. It's Moral Monday, and it can't come too soon.
Speaker 1:It's a hot time for congress folk who need to change their day. A hot time's coming Monday afternoon. Hot time Monday afternoon. Tribute to the Poor People's Campaign and the Moral Mondays movement.
Speaker 2:Right on, comrade Jim Crosby. This is nonviolent Austin radio hour. You are tuned in yet again for more principled and strategic nonviolence. And I am your host, Stacey Frazier. My pronouns are she and they.
Speaker 2:And, wow, we're, we're just ending over at a campaign nonviolence, which is our mother organization, Pace Vene Nonviolence Service, our twenty twenty five campaign action days. So today is the last day, and we are observing today globally as a community, the International Day of Nonviolence. And so
Speaker 1:Gandhi's birthday.
Speaker 2:Gandhi's birthday. Also, fun fact, apparently, Sting's birthday, someone just told me.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, Jim, how you been? How is how have these action days treated you?
Speaker 1:Been great. The main thing that nonviolent Austin did, as we have in the last several years, was our annual Peace and Justice Fest on the first day of the twelve days, September 21, which is the UN Global Day of Peace. And, we had a lineup of 10 or 12 music acts, and and and I actually did livestream it on the nonviolent Austin Facebook page. So you can find it in two or three segments there. And, I had a blast.
Speaker 1:So it was a great thing.
Speaker 2:Excellent. We have like, so was this the third year of the peace and justice stuff?
Speaker 1:I was saying third there in at the Princeton Palace. Erin Walter, co producer on it, corrected me. She says she's pretty sure it's the fourth that we've done it there. And before that, we did it kind of on video and Zoom for several years.
Speaker 2:Alright. I just received word from our, third leg of our triad, brother Robert Tyrone Lily, and he actually has been tied up at the office, so he can't join us in the flesh. But I know, brother Rob, you're always with us in spirit. So
Speaker 1:And Stacy, as you engineer, I'll put you on the spot that much more.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. Great. Let's let's let's test out my my my my cognition here, because it's not overloaded being a parent of a second grader.
Speaker 1:You know,
Speaker 2:I'm just saying. Jim, so you actually had some a piece of of of literature in mind today for us to anchor and center today's conversation about. Yeah. So tell us what book that is and why you selected it.
Speaker 1:Okay. It's it's actually one of two books that the last several years have been huge as far as kinda informing me as to, I don't wanna say just what we're up against, but what has shaped the last fifty or sixty years of political developments in this country. One of them focuses primarily on Christian nationalism. It's called the power worshipers by a woman named Catherine Stewart, is a wonderful piece of investigative journalism. And, but that's not the one we're gonna focus on.
Speaker 1:Maybe maybe some later point, I'll do a bunch more reviewing of that, and and we can talk about it. But this one, is not so much focused on the Christian right as just the right in general and kind of the, intersection of economics and politics. And again, the last seventy years, really starting in the mid fifties. So it's called democracy in chains, the deep history of the radical rights stealth plan for America by Nancy McLean, who is a history professor at, Duke University and, focuses a lot on a an economist named James McGill Buchanan, who was active from the fifties through I think he passed away in 2013, was it? Something like that.
Speaker 1:So huge influence on, the Koch brothers, especially Charles Koch, and and on where we are now. So I just wanted to share with our listeners, and discuss between us, you know, how that's manifested and what it means about, where we are now, including the last couple of days of, government shutdown, etcetera.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Do you recall where you first heard about this book?
Speaker 1:I think probably from Reverend Barber, Bishop Barber, and the Poor People's Campaign. I think they maybe both of those books I heard first about from them. And what I have appreciated so much about the work of Bishop Barber, Laurel Mundies, etcetera, was seeing how so many of our issues are connected. And the way they put it was the five interlocking moral evils of what were they? Poverty, obviously, white supremacist racism, environmental destruction, the war economy, and the false moral narrative of religious nationalism.
Speaker 1:So, you know, I think bringing those together, we certainly need to add patriarchy in there, and, but seeing how they're linked, and that's a lot of what this book does for me.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. So tell us a little bit about why and also why this rose to the surface in this moment, as the focus.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you start, and she she starts in the mid fifties and works back from there and then then forward through through history. So what you've got in, say well, Brown versus Board was 1954, I think, and they were trying to implement it through those next few years. In Virginia, in particular, they had the Harry Bird machine, longtime senator from Virginia, and kinda old time, you know, states rights southerner, and really resistant to, the demand to desegregate public schools. So in Virginia, there was there was a real wrestling with, okay.
Speaker 1:Do we just close down all the public schools? And that was a serious possibility, and I think at least one county tried that. Or how else do we delay as long as we can, make this terrible thing not happen? You know, it's how they were looking at the integration of public schools. And this particular fellow, James McGill James McGill Buchanan, comes along and says, we can look back to, among others, mainly, John c Calhoun, South Carolina, antebellum, you know, through the eighteen twenties, eighteen thirties making this states' rights argument and saying, okay.
Speaker 1:You Northerners are misinterpreting the constitution. And so, there's this stream from early on of saying, this is not about race. You know? This is about states' rights. And so in the mid fifties, Buchanan picks that up.
Speaker 1:He starts a think tank at, First University of Virginia, and, you know, was very influential for a few years there with Virginia politics and and as they tried as they wrestled with that question, and eventually left there for a year or so at UCLA and then basically landed at George Mason University, which has become kind of the the hotbed in some ways of, one, Coke related funding, and two, these various think tanks. And and at some point, they started, you know, focusing not only on economists and the economics department, but also law school. And so George Mason had become known in both fields, economics and law, as, you know, again, Coke funding, Heritage, you know, Foundation, the Cato Institute, American Enterprise Institute, and just the whole business of backing the courts across time, trying to drive funding for public schools, you know, doing the voucher thing that goes way back. So, yeah, a lot of this that we're wrestling with in Texas and and certainly nationwide now, if you read her research, you you kinda say, oh, yeah. It is all tied together, and and it's been very deliberate.
Speaker 1:And what what what it comes down to, every once in while, she summarized or quotes, you know, somebody that was kinda experiencing this growth through through time and said, it's really about, not only laissez faire capitalism, but libertarianism and setting capitalism free from democracy. So what we have to do is disassemble democracy in order to let capitalism, you know, do its thing.
Speaker 2:So that that that actually preempted my my next question which which is well, so what does she say is on the horizon?
Speaker 1:Well, in her she first wrote the book, basically through, I guess, 2016. She was finishing it came out, you know, in January 2017 within weeks before, Trump's first inauguration. And then so it's a 2017 copyright, but then there's a 2023 copyright because she wrote a new preface, you know, for, I don't know, for the paperback or a new edition. And and just talked about and that one certainly came out before the twenty twenty four election. So but, you know, she said, okay.
Speaker 1:In her in her conclusion, here's where we are so far, and here's you know, I think she titled that conclusion, get ready. So, you know, a lot of it is, you know, very much what we're living through now. Mhmm. You know, and I was just hearing today news over the last day or so about the shutdown as, you know, one of the main things that, mister Trump has said he was gonna do through the shutdown is lay off a bunch more, public employees. And that's a lot of it, but, you know, what this movement is about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So is it possible to disentangle capitalism from democracy in the context of The United States?
Speaker 1:Good question. You tell me. You know, I mean, that's it always comes down to, okay, how do we define democracy, and how do we look at, you know, the mixed economy that's, you know, evolved through the years? And a lot of what this book is about, I'll I'll maybe start out with a quote in a few minutes about similar times in a way and ways in which this question has lingered and and, you know, is the New Deal socialism, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, how do we define communist excuse me.
Speaker 1:How do we find capitalism, and how do we balance liberty, freedom? How do we define that, and who is it for? Because a lot of their terminology is that the the right in in the course of this history is this is all about liberty and economic liberty and setting people free to, you know, make as much money as they can, basically. And the question, you know, for us, I think, becomes, again, who's it for? Who who is set free by this?
Speaker 1:And what does it mean about the wealth the growing wealth gap? What does it mean about, all those who are not set free, who are bound by, you know, this approach. Yeah. And and does it make us as a society more callous, etcetera? And it certainly seems to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you're just tuning in, you are listening to nonviolent Austin radio hour here on Co op ninety one point seven FM here in Austin and streaming everywhere. Thanks for the all who tune in from afar. Anywhere you got a Internet connection, you can listen to our show, k o o p dot o r g. And we are we've spent the first quarter of this show centering the conversation, around a book that, mister Crosby, who is excellent, by the way, at, recommending books, Democracy in Chains.
Speaker 1:The deep history of the radical rights stealth plan for America. Nancy McLean.
Speaker 2:Yes. And guess my next question, Jim, would be, okay. So you and I are both nonviolent practitioners and trainers and advocates
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:For nonviolence. Mhmm. So where does nonviolence what what does this have to do with nonviolence? And it's I mean, there was some in the answer already, but I'm gonna ask for the benefit of our listening audience.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I go back to Gandhi a lot. And and you mentioned strategic and philosophical or discipline Principal. Principal nonviolence. You know?
Speaker 1:And and both Gandhi and and doctor King started out with strategic nonviolence. And and one way to look at that is Gandhi saying, you know, we want our independence, India, from The UK, but they got all the guns. So it's foolish to to think we're gonna have a, you know, civil war or take you know, or a a revolution, an armed revolution. And so I think that's analogous to our situation now. Certainly, was, you know, the minority in the South in our civil rights movement.
Speaker 1:Similar thing, you know, and we've got from the start the the the question of, okay, what about arming ourselves for self defense, etcetera. So and I I I always had cause in the past couple weeks to think back to, one of my favorite films, Do the Right Thing by Spike Lee, where he's got that famous one time picture when where MLK and Malcolm X met each other shaking hands, and it was ripped in two. And but the big question, you know, he's raising in that film is, okay. Do we, have rights in the streets? Do we do we, you know, basically, rebel, you know, physically and and with arms and, leaves that question, I think, wonderfully, you know, unanswered in a sense in the film.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, this has been a a present thing for me a whole lot in in terms of thinking about. And I go all the way back as as a theologian and and mainly in in Christian history. A lot of people see one of the original downfalls of Christianity as an institution or as a tradition several centuries in when, with Constantine and and, but basically the rationale of, just war theory within, you know, Christian theology. And I would see it that way. I I see that as a a falling away from the original message.
Speaker 1:So I would be one of those who who looks to, especially the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount, and as the core of Jesus teaching, which is very much nonviolent. And and as part of what Gandhi, you know, as a Hindu looked at and said, you know, why is it that that everybody in the world sees that Jesus was nonviolent except Christians? And so I may be straying from your question. You wanna refocus me?
Speaker 2:Oh, just to say, well, okay. So let's let's, purchase from the angle of what is what is violent about this moment, what we're seeing. And then part two of that would be what is the nonviolent, response? Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. As I've gone through books like this and thought about this a lot and and tried to become less of an academic and more of an activist in recent years. I've wrestled and we've talked a lot about what is it principle three, problems not people,
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Attack forces of evil, not persons doing evil.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so that's one of doctor King's main principles as he's, you know, practice nonviolence. And I think it's key, and I think it's really hard. And so, you know, for example, I think you can't help but name names in a sense. But rather than, you know, give give more, air in the room to individuals, I would rather focus on movements like ALEC, the American Legal Exchange Council
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And, you know, just pushing out these laws, like I mentioned in that opening song. And, I actually have a quote about that too. Think from toward the end of the book, how many those were. 180 laws in in a certain period of time, you know, nationwide. That and then that was strictly the ones focused on, voter restriction, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And Gandhi, I think, voiced late in his life from time to time a bit of a regret or or wish that they had focused more through history on or through the independence movement on what he called the constructive program, which was ashram life, you know, the spinning wheel, all the ways they could be more self sufficient and and building what then King ended up calling beloved community. And so I think the more we can strike a balance between attacking those forces of evil, not being pharisaic and and putting ourselves above individuals doing that evil, but, you know, calling into question the the things that were, like in this book, in their thinking, you know, or in their actions that that were hurting other people. And so but also doing what we can to look each other in the eye, live together in community. There's so much going on now in in the way of mutual aid, in part because it's a response and it's so necessary.
Speaker 1:But I think the more we can build that into our way of looking at life going forward, and and it's gotta start on the local level in a sense. And part of what, this analysis in in democracy and chain talks about is is the way, this group, you know, on the right figured out. Having had this, you know, small government rubric for years, ending up saying, no. We we, the local government is often the problem. Can we control the states?
Speaker 1:And that's they've been very successful at doing that. And and then when when necessary on the federal level, you know, whether it's, packing the Supreme Court or, you know, judiciary in general or, you know, what can we do to get our way knowing that a lot of these things are not popular? What can we do to move away from one person, one vote democracy? And you go back, you know, to the constitution and to the setup of the senate and just how unrepresentative it is. So the Southern states built that in from the start.
Speaker 1:Right? So just kinda they're going back and and saying, okay. Here's here's what's worked for us, and how can we make it work that much more effectively? And, you know, gerrymandering is certainly a a part of that. How can we build it in so that, you know, the the opposition who would be more democratic, you know, small d democratic, how can we build it in where they can never win another election?
Speaker 1:Or what's been hinted at, how about we just don't have any more elections?
Speaker 2:What you said just a moment ago made me think of, one of, I think, true movement ancestor who left us yesterday, Jane Goodall, at least this earthly plane. And and so my my kiddo and I watched a documentary last night that she had done later in her life, and it was called Hope. Mhmm. And she mentioned that, you know, the adage of, like, think globally.
Speaker 1:Act locally.
Speaker 2:Act locally. Mhmm. She said there maybe that's a a bit of a misframe, and then maybe it should be think locally Mhmm. Act globally. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So so thinking locally feels empowering from what I'm witnessing in the 5,600 actions that have been that have taken place in the past three weeks for campaign nonviolence action days. Mhmm. And the the power that has been generated by those local acts of resistance Mhmm. And those resistances that those forms of resistance being as varied as showing a movement documentary to, you know, holding a a vigil to
Speaker 1:Having a music festival.
Speaker 2:Having a music festival here in our backyard in many different formats. And and our four pronged message of Campaign Nonviolence This Year, which one of them is nonviolence towards oneself. And so acts of self love and self care count as actions. And it is hard to, I think to to put pen to paper and map out all of the the layers
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:To non violence. But I do think that they're all part of the of the the picture. And so so yeah. So this thank you for for whatever prompted and what you said. Go ahead
Speaker 1:and talk about all four. So it's nonviolence to self, nonviolence to the the earth. Right? Yep. Our ecosystem, nonviolence to others that we interact with.
Speaker 1:And then finally, nonviolence being the way John Deere always puts it is is becoming part of the grassroots global grassroots movement of nonviolence.
Speaker 2:That's right. And so some of those is, know and and defining and quantifying an action, like what is an action? Well, an action as an action doesn't have to be the getting, you know, we we're we're all not all, but many of us in the world of nonviolence are focused on that 3.5% mobilizing or reaching that number for mass action, which has been shown to be a tipping point in past authoritarian regimes. But it is impossible to quantify what action is going to catalyze someone else to activate their conscience and and change the course of their life and what they do in it. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about Dan Weber Mhmm. Who's been a past guest on this show. And thinking about, you know, his own personal journey that he has shared on this show is a good example of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, part of what I've seen, you know, as so effective is is people journeying inward to some degree, but then sharing. So us telling our stories, I think, is key, and especially those who are being affected by oppressive laws, you know, or actions, or laws being put into action.
Speaker 1:And and and so the the counter to that, I think, is reaching out in love. Sometimes I define nonviolence as love in action, and and get away from that passive idea of nonviolence, you know, which people characterize turning the other cheek is but it's it's not that at all.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. I I I'm still holding on to the my the belief that more people would join our movement in nonviolence if they understood what we meant by it. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's what we're trying
Speaker 2:to do. Yeah. There you go. And us, we have microphones, and we're on co op here. So we are gonna take a quick break for a few community announcements, and we will be back in a few minutes.
Speaker 4:Business member support for coop comes from Austin Community Soccer Association. To learn how your business can support coop, go to coop.org/support. Looking to start your weekend early? Coop's got you covered. Every first Thursday of the month, coop DJs will be spinning records from seven to 11PM at Community Garden, located in the heart of East Austin at 1401 Cedar Avenue, Unit 2.
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Speaker 6:Dylan, when I want some time to relax on, I don't know, Thursday around 06:00, what should I what should I be doing? Definitely do not listen to Doublehead's variety hour. Oh, really? Why not? Oh, it's a it's a show of two themes.
Speaker 6:Oh, that's Uh-huh. One too many. They tell you to take a hike. Oh, that's kinda mean. They tell you you're a coward.
Speaker 6:Oh, even meaner. And they tell you to buzz off. They tell you to buzz off? Mhmm. Wow.
Speaker 6:And that was Doublehead's variety hour? Doublehead's variety hour, Thursdays at 6PM. Wow. Doublehead's standard time. They think they have their own time zone.
Speaker 6:That's old. But spicy at the same time. Yes.
Speaker 1:Doubleheads.
Speaker 2:Hello. Thank you for tuning in to Co op Community Radio ninety one point seven FM here in Austin, Texas, and streaming online everywhere, koop.org. You are listening to this month's episode of nonviolent Austin radio hour. I'm your host, Stacey Frazier. Pronouns are she, they.
Speaker 2:I'm joined by my comrade in love and justice, Jim Crosby. And we are joined in spirit by brother Robert Tyrone Lily, who is also our cohost on the show. And I actually see him walking through the door, so he will be joining us momentarily. So, the first half of the show, we, we started with, as an as a centering point and a conversation piece, Democracy in Chains, The Deep History of the National Right stealth plan. Radical Radical rights.
Speaker 2:Stealth Plan for America by Nancy McLean. Hello, brother Rob. Welcome into the studio. We saved you a chair. You always have a chair at my table.
Speaker 2:Alright. Let's get you mic'd up here. There you go.
Speaker 3:Good afternoon. Peace and blessing.
Speaker 2:Thank you, dear, for joining us. Now we are gonna keep going with our conversation about, well, Jim's prep workaround to this wonderful book, and it's a sign of our time. So Yeah.
Speaker 1:Top quiz for y'all. I'm not hearing myself over here. Stacy, you you got me coming through good? Okay. There you are.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Here's a quote from her conclusion, which, as I said a while ago, is called Get Ready. She says The United States, and again, this is in 2017, The United States is now one of those historic forks in the road whose outcome will prove as fateful as those of the eighteen sixties, the nineteen thirties, and the nineteen sixties. To value liberty for the wealthy minority above all else and enshrine it in the nation's governing rules as Calhoun and Buchanan both called and the Coke network is achieving play by play is to consent to an oligarchy in all but the outer husk of representative form. So I guess it raises the question, what were those, you know, three prior times? But but also, are we down to a mere husk of our democracy, you know, our representative form.
Speaker 1:So brother Rob, you rushed here. Your I'm is covered with sweat.
Speaker 3:Glistening with sweat right now. I do apologize.
Speaker 1:So but but let's let me just, you know, prep us by saying, okay, eighteen sixties, what was going on?
Speaker 3:1860, we had the civil war. Correct.
Speaker 1:Nineteen thirties?
Speaker 3:Nineteen thirties Great depression.
Speaker 1:Great depression. Yeah. And the New Deal. Nineteen sixties?
Speaker 3:Nineteen sixties is civil rights movement.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we use the phrase a lot these days that, you know, third reconstruction. So the the first reconstruction was obviously after the civil war.
Speaker 3:That's reverend Barbara talks about the third reconstruction.
Speaker 1:Right. As does The Neil Joseph. Yeah, here in Austin. Then the nineteen sixties, obviously, the civil rights movement is seen that sometimes is the second reconstruction. And then now, we're either in a third Reconstruction or it's needed or how we define it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So and then the nineteen thirties is certainly, you know, the the, you had the the Gilded Age and the crash and and then the New Deal to respond to it. So she says this is one of those historic forks, and puts Calhoun, Buchanan, and Coke at the center of, you know, valuing liberty for the wealthy minority above all else and enshrining it in the nation's governing rules. So do we see that happening? And, you know, like you were asking a while ago, okay, what does nonviolence have to do with all that, Stacy?
Speaker 2:Well, that as well. But I would also say, okay, well then, reconstructing from what original construction because I don't think democracy's ever been achieved. I think that it's been aspirational for some at best and it's been intentionally not completed in its true sense. Mhmm. So when the question is asked about a husk, I would say it's a husk that has a lot of holes in it and didn't have much protection to begin with.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's that's my honor's answer. Then going through those timelines of of the eighteen sixties, I've said, well, let's let's go back to the creation of this democracy as we're working in to try to to actualize.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thinking about the constitution, a lot of their work, especially as they move from economics into law, has been to say, okay, how do we that we need to rewrite the constitution. What what what's it gonna take to have a another constitutional, you know, convention. And a lot of us on the traditional left would say, yeah, some rewrite is needed, but to accomplish the exactly the opposite, you know, goals. So yeah.
Speaker 1:Rob, what are you thinking?
Speaker 3:Well, quite a few things are coming to my mind. I I like Stacy's point that she made about, you know, has this ideal ever really been achieved? So I've noticed the first thought that came to my mind when you talked about being at a crossroads, I agree with that. I agree that we are at a place where, as a society, we have to make a decision. What kind of human being do we wanna be?
Speaker 3:And I think for the first time, some of us as a society are seeing how we as individuals are intricately connected to our government. Mhmm. Right? And we have to and so by virtue of that, we have to ask the question, what kind of nation do we wanna be? Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I don't think many of us this is my own summation. I think many of us haven't grappled with what that looks like. I think we just take for granted. We're here. We don't necessarily if if problems are not at my doorstep, then I'm I'm virtually at peace.
Speaker 3:But now, with all the the many conflagrations I mean, if you just think, for example, about when the immigration kidnappings were taking place.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Right? When they first started. You know, we could we could we could ignore it. But now you can't you can't turn on the TV. You can't turn on social media.
Speaker 3:There's no way that you can escape it. So you have to ask yourself, where do I stand with this? You may not you may not announce that on social media. You may not you may not come on a radio show and and share your views with the public, but you have a position. Right?
Speaker 3:And so I think so you're wrestling with where do I stand and where do I want this nation to stand. And again, I think we've had the luxury of watching these things happen from television, watching them happen from afar, but not having to really deal with them on an internal basis. So I think that's a crossroad that we're at. That's a turning point that we're at where I no longer can endure the luxury of, you know, seeing these things but not weighing in on them or having a position. Right?
Speaker 3:But I will say this. For some folk, white folk particularly, I think historically by default, many white folk have seen themselves connected to government. That's why it's so easy for many of these folk who are in the, quote unquote, MAGA right to quickly run to the defense of some of the most egregious things, because they see their whiteness synonymously associated with power and government. And so that's always, I think, been the legacy of white supremacy in our society where it's unquestioned that I'm associated with the highest authority in the land. Right?
Speaker 3:I look at the money, I see myself. I look at the religion, I see myself. I look at the congress, I I see myself. I look at the senate, I see myself. And so, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think ultimately, you know, we are on a deep internal level really having to ask ourselves, where do I stand? I've never visited Israel. And and I don't know if I'll ever have enough wealth to visit Israel. But I have to ask myself, are the things that I'm seeing today because there's an argument that's being put forth in the public. Is this genocide?
Speaker 3:Or is it a legitimate war? Right? And we have to struggle with that. Right? I think most people haven't questioned those things.
Speaker 3:But now you can't turn on the TV, especially since, you know, Kirk's unfortunate and untimely death. Mhmm. You know, we now are asking ourselves, you see ministers weighing in. I've gone to many sermons in many churches, and they may throw in a political line here or there. But now you're seeing sermons go viral Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Where long diatribes are are critiquing our society, critiquing white supremacy, critiquing our history.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I think so on one hand, say this is good. On one hand, I say this is good because, you know, we no longer have the luxury of being oblivious. But on the other hand, I say it's quite challenging because to Stacy's point, you know, depending on what eyes you look at our society through, some people are saying, you know, turning point, yeah. We're trying to save the nation. And, you know, of course, that's subjective.
Speaker 3:What on the right, they're saying save the nation means save it from the great white replacement. On the on the left, they're saying save it from fascism. This is where you got this is where you got to do some homework.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I grew up and I didn't hear the words fascist. I barely heard the word imperialism or colonialism. I heard about, you know, the Quakers or maybe the great the the first, you know, colonial visitors here to this land. But wrestling with these ideologies and how and the implications of these ideologies and what it you know, we've used catchphrases like socialist, and we use catchphrases like communist. Those things have been just thrown about so randomly.
Speaker 3:People are not really looking at that. Now, you've if you're conscious, you gotta take a look at this. If you're conscious, you really need to be sitting down reading some like what Jim is doing here today with us, thank you for this book. I haven't read it in its entirety. I would like to after reading a few pages, but you have to begin to study.
Speaker 3:You know, he asked us at a moment ago, if you sat in the audience and you didn't know when he asked what happened in the nineteen sixties and you you pause for a good while, it's time for you to study. If he asked you what was happening in the nineteen thirties, which was another another pivotal moment, Roosevelt could have gone one direction. They were trying to stop him from, open you know, dismantling what, at that time, was unhealthy capitalism in our society. Truly exploitative capitalism. It had proven its failure.
Speaker 3:But, you know, they stopped short of that and compromise once again. And so I think we are at a point where not only are we at a crossroads or a turning point, but we're also at that point where I think historically we've always learned the word we've always seen the word compromise arise. Right? Are we gonna compromise with this kind of injustice, Adele, this kind of inequity? Or are we gonna take a firm stand and have a position?
Speaker 3:I'll I'll yield
Speaker 1:there. Stacy, you wanna weigh in?
Speaker 2:I would say in addition to doing our homework also, I've probably spent more time in the past five to ten years unlearning and relearning and questioning what I thought I knew. So yes, I agree with you in, learning is necessary, and I will also say it's getting more challenging to find truth. It's been challenging because textbooks have certainly had political motivations, and then I didn't learn about colonization or imperialism or any of that either until well into adulthood. Mhmm. But we're also barraged with capitalism backed media.
Speaker 2:Right? And so finding finding the truth at the same time as needing to know the truth has perhaps never been more challenging in our modern times.
Speaker 3:I I wanna just say one thing before you go back into that, Jim. I will say that when I was incarcerated and, you know, for those that have been watching or listening to our program for some time, you'll know that I always juxtapose my experiences with my experiences with this this program with my my background. Right? Meaning, on this radio show. I'm not just devoid of my past.
Speaker 3:Right? I'm I'm bringing my experience into this conversation. And so what that means for me is thinking about my learning journey. Right? I have a learning journey.
Speaker 3:I'm simultaneously trying to do some video stuff here just to capture the moment. If it's not recorded, doesn't exist. That's what some people say. So, you know, for me, to your point, Stacey, you were talking about learning. And I said, I alluded to, like, there was a lot I didn't learn in the educational experience.
Speaker 3:You know, public schools for example. I don't know if it was because I wasn't paying attention. I don't know if it wasn't in the curriculum. I don't know if they just ignored teaching it. All I know is that I did not, until I was about 19, maybe 20, I was in a juvenile facility, begin to become conscious of the world around me.
Speaker 3:And I remember my first inquiry, I talked to people and I asked questions. What do you think? And I got all kinds of spurious answers. If you're talking about God, I heard multiplicity of ideas about God. If you're talking about politics And then at some point, I'm listening to some of these answers and they're kinda sounding ridiculous.
Speaker 3:You know? And I'm not very intelligent at this time. I'm not very well informed. But I'm realizing this doesn't really make sense. Usually, it was around the subject of slavery.
Speaker 3:I would hear all kinds of answers. And finally, got to a place, you know what I said? Enough is enough. I'm gonna go read for myself. I'm gonna go find the answers.
Speaker 3:And to your point, Stacy, yes, there's a lot of immaterial out there. I've read all kinds of books, books that I didn't agree with, but it was still useful in reading it. And the more I read, the more I could begin to use my own tools of analysis to determine what is substantive here in this reading. And so, just share that with you to say, you know what, I'd rather be on the journey, striving, digging through a pile of books looking for the answers, than sitting on the sidelines twiddling my thumbs waiting for the game to come on tonight. Right?
Speaker 3:I'm trying to find solutions to my life's dilemmas. I'm trying to find answers to the problems of my time. You know, I'll say this and I'll yield. I've often said to myself, I've heard other people say, what would have happened if you'd lived during the nineteen sixties? What would I wonder what I would have done or what you know, I would have done this.
Speaker 3:Well, this is a moment in time that Jim has indicated borders on historical precedents of social conflagration. Here is a moment. Right now, I have a position that I'm taking in this moment. I'm doing things in a specific way. Everyone's calculus is different.
Speaker 3:No two people can be judged by the same standard. Know, I think I indicate that because, you know, as a as a king yan nonviolent organizer, I don't compromise with injustice. Right? I don't compromise with with wrong. I have a standard that I believe in.
Speaker 3:But but my response to that doesn't necessarily have to be your response, and your response doesn't have to be my response. But I assure you, there must be a response. Or, by virtue of your apathy, you're complicit.
Speaker 1:Yep. That is a response. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's right. If you're, just tuning in, you are listening to Nonviolent Austin Radio Hour here on Co op Community Radio ninety one point seven FM, k o o p dot o r g. Welcome folks who are outside of our backyard, as we are in a global backyard. And this the these principles, the principles of nonviolence and conversely, the principles of violence are operating at multiple levels. And, brother Rob, I think, you had, not yet joined us.
Speaker 2:Perhaps you were listening on the car when we were talking about, alright. Well, local action and the different levels and coming back to the book here about, alright. Well, so where do we do stuff? How do we meet this moment and where do we meet it?
Speaker 1:And one thing we wanted to make sure to let people know about is the follow-up No Kings Day on, October 18
Speaker 2:Quick round.
Speaker 1:Saturday the eighteenth at the Texas State Capitol, two to 05:30, I understand.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, yeah, we got No Kings coming up. We have election coming up here in the state of Texas, November 4, and that's actually 17 proposed constitutional amendments. And, I was skimming through the propositions, that we're voting for, and a couple of them are near and dear to the topics that we discuss on this monthly show. One is related to bail reform, and, one of the propositions would require judges to deny bail for certain felonies.
Speaker 2:And another proposition that's on this list is related to border security infrastructure and and granting tax exemptions for, folks, private landowners who allow additional security, which, you know, we talk about immigration a lot as another act of violence. And so the voter registration deadline is October 6, and early voting starts on October 24. So for those of you who have not been disenfranchised by the system in this country, which many of our
Speaker 3:That would be
Speaker 2:comrades have
Speaker 3:That would be me.
Speaker 2:Please do not squander your ability to vote on these issues that matter.
Speaker 3:Don't we have a local election coming up soon as well? Do we have a proposition on the table as well?
Speaker 2:We do have one that affects us locally on that same
Speaker 3:Proposition queue? Yeah. Mhmm. That's correct. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Again, I'd say this just by way of reiterating the point I made earlier. Even as we think about these policies, right, these propositions, you know, you could knee jerk, make a vote, and decide to weigh in in that way, or you could actually research and study. Because at the end of the day, you know, the decisions that we make or we fail to make, they have real life implications on not only our lives, but the lives of those in our society. And then what's so problematic about, you know, unfortunately, the many or the numerous folk. I don't know.
Speaker 3:I won't say many. Let's just say that there are people out here that may do knee jerk reactions to these very critical issues of our times and don't study, don't reflect, they're talking they follow the talking heads of TV. The reality is that that kind of response is tragic when we look up and we see a social problem, you know, and we respond to it with such disregard for human life. For case in point, I was watching an exchange on X, formerly known as Twitter, and there was a gentleman who was in the downtown area who's been, over the years, unhoused and had instances of contact with law enforcement as a result of his psychotic breaks and, you know, his acting out. Right?
Speaker 3:That is definitely something that we are concerned about. We want a society safe from those kinds of things. But, when to point to that man alone and disparage him for his illness, and not to look at the fact that we don't have enough adequate supportive housing. We don't have enough chronically We don't have enough beds for those who are acutely mentally ill. This is this this I'm sharing that by way of just pointing out that there are social problems that are riddled with all sorts of implications that require a response from us.
Speaker 3:And if you have the franchise, I don't. I can't use my vote. I can use my voice, but not my vote. But if you do have the franchise, then your vote your vote, especially on the local level, has immense implications for not just your life, but the lives of people around you. And what you do or do not do, just know that follow that thought through to its logical conclusion.
Speaker 3:If I don't do this, what potentially could happen? And no one no one we don't know the future. But this is why we use the the best reasoning that we have to try to determine how to govern ourselves and to govern our society. And so I'll just pause there and say, I wish you the best as you sit and deliberate where you're gonna land on these issues. I know where I stand.
Speaker 1:And I'm thinking, you know, one thing I feel the real need of, and I would encourage all our listeners to contemplate, is is what can you do to take down the walls, to make friends with people in all the groups that that we see around us that maybe we don't normally rub shoulders with?
Speaker 3:I got an answer to that.
Speaker 1:Go for it.
Speaker 3:Have courage. It takes courage. I noticed long ago when I met somebody new and I would go up to them and shake their hand, I'd have this weird inner conversation. It's just awkward, you know? You gotta look this person in the face.
Speaker 3:You have to touch their hand. Their hand may be clammy. Yours might be clammy. But what I've learned over the course of time is that if I held if I endured that discomfort just for a moment, on the other side of that is a wonderful mystery that unfolds to me. This person.
Speaker 3:Like, that's how I met Jim Crosby. That's how I met Stacey Frazier. Right? We met each other in various circumstances and I endured the moment of discomfort to get to the delight that was on the other side. Another example I yield with this one is a friend of mine, doctor Jerry Taylor, has encouraged me over the years.
Speaker 3:I need because I would complain to him about my experiences at this particular in a particular religious setting. And he said, you need to go to a friends meeting. I said, a friends meeting? Yeah. The Quakers meeting.
Speaker 3:I said, okay. Yeah. Sure. I said, sure. But, you know, it took me a couple of years Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Before I finally got to a place where I had a moment of, you know, internal discord. Right? A dark night of the soul. And I said, You know what? I gotta step outside the box.
Speaker 3:I'm going over there. Went over there, man, and had the best time of my life, man. You know, sat down in complete silence and just listened inwardly. And then eventually somebody stood up and they were people were talking about the school district. People were talking about Israel.
Speaker 3:People were and it was not one person speaking from the front of the room, but it was a multiplicity of folk all around the room. So to your question, you know, I had to have a little courage and step outside of my comfort zone and endure the discomfort for just a moment to get to the delight of that mystery on the other side called another human being.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So dial up your courage and your kinda innate curiosity. Mhmm. Be intentional about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Mhmm. I've got one more quote I wanna throw throw to y'all and then we just got a couple minutes left before concluding song. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd like I'd like to mention one one point on that. So this weekend, without overthinking it at all, someone sent me the opening of the Native American Cultural Center grand opening over here at the former Harris Elementary. And my parents were
Speaker 3:Say it again.
Speaker 2:The Native American Cultural Center.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:They had their grand opening
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Last weekend at the They're former on East 4th in Tillery. And a friend of mine just texted me said, hey, are you going to this? And you know what? I had missed it. In the sea of things, I I had missed it.
Speaker 2:And I'm so glad I went. My parents were visiting from out of town. And I said, you know what, y'all? I wanna stop by this place real quick before we go on to the the the book fair we're going to. And I'll tell you that one hour of just deviating from the script.
Speaker 2:Right? To just be in a room and learning and meeting people was so enriching. And those moments, I just got over the overthinking around it and just went. And that's available. And so I just wanna build on what you're saying with the yes and let's just get out of our own ways and because the barriers are being put into place structurally for us to not know each other.
Speaker 2:Like that is a system that is designed for us to be isolated, lonely, mentally ill, and compliant and complacent. And this is the antidote and it is available.
Speaker 3:Agreed. What is the title of that book, Jim?
Speaker 1:Democracy and Change subtitle, The Deep History of the Radical Rights Stealth Plan for America.
Speaker 3:Now I'm not so familiar with Greek but I think the word demos means the people, doesn't it? Right? Yep. So the people must become unchained. Go ahead and read your quote, Jim.
Speaker 2:And Jim, we have two and a half minutes, so you just use this closing time however you see fit.
Speaker 1:Let me instead of I'll forego my song, which is about I've played it here before, our tale to tell, how we need to tell our stories. But I wanna read this because, it's about prisons, and it ties in with all this other stuff. So it's in her conclusion, again, calling called Get Ready. Just as the radical right seeks ultimately to turn public education over to corporations, so it pushes for corporate prisons. The mission seems important enough that Alexander Tabarrok, a GMU George Mason economist then moonlighting as research director for the Koch funded Independent Institute, issued a whole book on the subject in 2003 with the coy title changing the guard.
Speaker 1:Quote, we now know that private prisons can be built more quickly, operated at lower cost, and maintained at a quality level at least as high as government run prisons, he announced. While warning of special interest groups, in particular, the correctional agencies and the prison guard unions that push for more prison spending, he neglected to note how the profit motive could lead private prison corporations to push for tougher sentencing, to drive up prison populations, and to cut costly items such as job training and substance abuse counseling. Immediate response to that?
Speaker 3:Again, study to show thyself approved. If you hear this information and do not go inquire for yourself to determine what is fact from fiction, then you are complicit in your own chaining.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And what this book basically argues is that we can look at a seventy year now intentional movement, this kind of privatization of the schools, of the medical, you know, getting rid of the bigger of everything. Yeah. A lot about Flint, Michigan in here. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. So peace and blessings to the listening audience. Thank you for enduring my tardiness today. And and, you know, and thank you Jim and Stacy for accommodating me until
Speaker 6:You my
Speaker 1:came with it when you got here.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:The time is always right to do the right thing as our teacher, Doctor. King, says.
Speaker 3:That's a good way to end it.
Speaker 2:That's right. So y'all, we'll see you next month, November 6, right after that that election.
Speaker 3:CVO's kitty.
Speaker 2:Yep. And up next is democracy now. So continue listening and learning right here on Co op Community Radio.
Speaker 1:Thanks, everybody.
Speaker 2:Bye, y'all.
Speaker 1:K o o p h d one h d three Hornsby.