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The Idol Horse team tackles the biggest events on the world horse racing calendar. Expect to hear interviews from the biggest names in the sport and insight, breaking news and forthright opinion from the Idol Horse team.
Former jockey Brett Prebble is an all time great, not only in Australia, but Hong Kong. Today on the Idol Horse Podcast, we catch up with Brett. He talks about why he hasn't been near a horse since his retirement in June. And he takes us inside of that heated rivalry with Douglas Whyte in Hong Kong. Also Brett talks about what it's like to watch his son Thomas ride in races. I'm Michael Cox and coming up next, the Idol Horse Podcast with Brett Prebble.
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Joining us today on the Idaho horse podcast, one of the all time great jockeys Brett Prebble is a Caulfield cup winner, golden slipper, Melbourne cup. Also more than 800 wins in Hong Kong. That's good enough for fifth on the all time list. Brett Prebble, thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Coxie, it'd be a, be enjoyable chat. So since retiring, announcing your retirement in June.
We want to know what you've been up to, but what you're about to embark on is a, is a bit of a media career. You're going to be an analyst coming up during the spring carnival for sky racing. What are you looking forward to about being on the other side of the microphone as it were? Well, it'd be interesting whether I'm really looking forward to it not, but you know, just see whether I see how I go. didn't see whether how I come across and whether I, my, my insight and my knowledge and my experience over for the years that if I've been in racing could somewhat help.
helped listeners listen in. One of the things I'm interested in is how it looks from a jockey's perspective compared to where I sit from a media perspective when it comes to analyzing a ride and looking at someone's, assessing someone's performance as a jockey. What is it that maybe someone like myself or just an average punter might miss?
Yeah, think it was obviously what a horse was physically capable of doing, you know, obviously, the majority, a lot of the races become down to especially in Australia and speed or control. So, you know, if you jump from barrier two, and you're a back marker, you end up in a nice position, you know, one goes around, goes and slows down, you end up in another two, three pairs back, your second last and from an inside draw, and you think, how did you get there? you know, if your horse is not a tactical
or, you know, horse that could take that natural forward speed. Circumstances can happen very quickly like that and you're in the bin. So your chances are in the hands of the people in front of you, the, the place that you're dictated to. So we can't jump them. You've got to obviously ride then the best race you can, the cards you've been dealt with after the tempo of the race is allowed where you're positioned. the other thing that I've heard you talk about before is how fast things happen in a race.
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When we talk about, he should have done this and he should have done that. But that's not how long you had to think about it. No, you don't like three seconds is 18 lengths, isn't it? Or something like that. So that's a long way, you know, in three seconds. If you second guess yourself, your judgment out there, well, nine times out of 10, you'll make the wrong decision. Good jockeys, obviously, you go to tennis players, you're hitting a ball that often. And that many times a day that just becomes second nature to you. You just, you just don't think about it. You do it, you know, and that's what,
where the elite come, they don't make many mistakes. that's, Damien always just said it to me when I was a kid, know, the difference between good jogging and bad jogging is good ones make less mistakes. This is a time of the year where you really shone during your time riding in Australia, pre Hong Kong. Does it still get the blood pumping this time of year? Yeah, definitely. Obviously I retired probably, maybe, when I retired, you wrote the first story, so was in June, wasn't it? I think I might have retired and...
So it's been out of just away from racing. took a step away from it. Just basically I've obviously got my business persuader, which I really, really passionate about. And I focus a lot of my time and energy on that. I'm sort of commuting backwards and forwards at the moment from Sydney to Melbourne, where my factory is in East Keele. Cause I've got my family up here. So we'll sort of finish the end of year here in December and then we'll go back. So I'm not obviously commuting back and forth. We'd love Sydney. I'd love to stay here, but it's just not feasible at the moment.
She asked me what I've been doing, that's what I've been doing, just in tension my time in that. And now that I've sort of job, this job's sort of come up and been offered, I've been taking a very keen eye on obviously doing the form, watching how the good horses are going in the main races. It's been very interesting. You're sitting aside and you know, I have a little flatter, flatter every now and then again, I'm not much good at that I think, I'm sort of, I'm not a gambler. So it's interesting to you know, sometimes I'm kicked myself by.
have a choice in a race which one I think will win and I put a bet on something else and I think, why did I do that? You know, that's just an instinct thing. Sometimes you go for hard or you go with not so much my knowledge, you you still going with you want someone, you know, obviously my son, you know, I have a hundred bucks on him sometimes because I'm wanting to win, but not really because it's probably a logical bet at the time, you know? So it's interesting to how I'm seeing it now and how I feel.
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how the races get run too. I get frustrated a little bit watching it, like why, why do I do that? And I'm making a decision quick enough and it's interesting to get back into it. yeah, and I think over the spring carnival is a very special time too. And that's where the bigger races, the bigger fields, jockeys come from all around the world, all around Australia, horses come from. it's just much more.
exciting and more unknown sort of harder, harder to pick a winner. thought we'll come back to your, mentioned your son, Thomas, who's now riding in races down in Victoria. We'll come back to him a little later, but I want to talk about, you know, just that emotional impact of, of retirement. And, know, there are a few, if there are a few things that characterized your writing, I'd say maybe the outstanding characteristic was, was your competitiveness.
you know, you're when you're in a finish or you could see it when you're a tight in a race, you could see it in your, your demeanor. You really wanted to win in it. And it showed more than, than most. Did you find it difficult transition from, from letting go? Yeah, of course, you know, I still had to draw a line in the sand. I didn't, at the time I didn't, I wanted to retire, but I didn't want to retire. You don't want to give away something you've been doing for 30 years and you do it because you love it. It was a hard decision and.
It was a decision I didn't take lightly. I spent a fair bit of time tilling and frozing pluses and minuses, but I wasn't happy. So it's no good going to work every day and be unhappy. I love writing, but I wasn't getting the enjoyment and the satisfaction out of my work that I should have been, that I used to do. When I was a kid, I never done it for the money. I did it for the excitement to win. yeah, I on every, I used to.
I used to ride like every ride was my last ride and that was just my style. I mean, I've talked to you a little bit about it before, but there are also a jockeys that maybe had that emotional connection. I would really call it an emotional connection with the animal itself. How have you gone away from that? Are you around horses? Do you expect to be around horses again in your life? Yeah, sort of, yeah, as I said, I...
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cut myself away from him, you know, I didn't, I haven't been around him at all. The other day I went down to the stables, I wanted to try some plinkas on a horse, went down to Hayes' stable, so we were just putting some samples on actually for the Hong Kong Drug Club and getting the size perfect on horses and it was really nice. It was just nice having that connection and that affection with the horses again. sort of went, once I sort of put myself in that position, I do miss it and I will in the near future.
I'll let you go and sort of write a bit of work for Dan Mar down in Pakenham. I'm very close to his family and I'll get a lot of enjoyment out of that. Just I'll go down on a Saturday, on a day off and probably write one or two for him and just have a laugh, have breakfast. And then obviously go and have breakfast with Anne, his mother and his brothers, Paul and Chris will be down there. So that'd be a real family connection that I don't want to ever lose. Tell me about that. So Dan Mar, just to explain, was a trainer in Singapore, which recently
racing closed in Singapore and Dan coming back to Australia. Tell us about the connection with the Ma family and how that came about for you. Yeah, obviously I was my first years, my apprenticeship was with Terry O'Sullivan in Stall, three hours away from Melbourne. then I got sort of poached really from David Charles sort of poached me from, he used to be an assistant for John Ma and he said to Johnny, this boy.
and right you should get him and John at the time he was he was known as the trainer of made apprentices or made jockeys you know he's had really good success over the years of making people and jockeys and I sort of went down there and you know I was a kid from the bush and I didn't really wasn't I lived in bit of a fishbowl existence what I was doing in a western district I didn't really watch the Melbourne racing Melbourne Cup I was really lucky to know what day it was on like I just wasn't fanatical
Noah all form and know Bart Cummings I'd heard of him never sort of you know rode for him or anything like that so I was to go down there was you know I was a kid you know it just was like out of the bush into the city with bright lights for the first time you know so and I just felt straight away I was electric you know and the feeling being down in the city and and obviously working with John Mars professionalism and obviously I was a bit of a rap out kid and
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You know, he just, he was quite tough. He was really fair and really family sort of, family, connection with his apprentices or his, or his workers. So he, had that bond there with, with him and it was a beautiful thing. I think he really, he molded me into a sort of a much, much guided and better person. That's interesting. I mean, I was going to ask you. My next question was going to be what it was that he taught you about horses and riding.
Like was there one key bit of advice, but it sounds like his influence you want to as a person was far more profound. think so. Yeah. You know, I was always, I can drive from such a young age and I was doing things. He put me on them Sydney couple of 17, know, and drew barrier 21 and at one, you know, give it a peach. You know, it wasn't, he, didn't, I don't think given sort of doubted my ability to ride. was more of I had the mentality to put everything together and not go off the rails. Like, you know,
It's very easy to do with kids. And then as an apprenticeship, when they get a lot of money, you know, things change and success sort of up and down a little bit. And, you know, in the quiet time, you go a bit missing or go a bit haywire. And I think Johnny kept me in that straight and narrow and was really supportive and loyal, you know. You write about race, you wrote it again the next day, next part of me. So he was really, he had just...
just strong morals as a person and as a trainer, was exceptional trainer to be under him and I ended up being his stable, from the apprentice to be his stable jockey, know, Stevie King at Hong Kong and I took his role. So that was very, very rewarding and obviously got very good satisfaction out of being his stable jockey. Do you imagine what your life would be like had that not happened?
I mean, what sort of impact did he have when you compare it? Yeah, massive. He just made me more professional, professional as a jockey. It was more to just ride the horse, you know, obviously I still struggle with off the horse mainly. That's where my downfall was most of my career, you know, obviously I was a hot headed and I'd speak my mind. obviously wasn't his Johnny, was obviously Des O'Keefe was really...
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of a major influence to, he was a stable manager and was a big guidance in my career. He obviously guided me, the first manager I got, got Steve Walsh, which was a really big thing then at the start. He was always there, he drove into the races, he just did so much for me, still does to this day, he's like a father figure to me.
Just being in that, having that opportunity to be around Johnny and his family and as in Dezo Keith was, I'm very grateful for that. Just to close off this section of the interview, Dan Mar starting again at Pakenham in the coming months. Tell me about him as a person and as a trainer. Yeah, he's a bit like Johnny. He's a bit heightened, a bit nervous and a bit ready, but it's funny. I've seen him over the last few years.
how he's mellowed and changed and really he's coming into his own as a trainer, I believe, and that record speaks for himself. He's the last 13 group ones in Singapore, he won 12 and got beaten in the second and the last one got beaten on the lie. Those records speak for themselves as a trainer and he did have the biggest team there. He had a good owner, loyal, went through to Johnny Ma's school, Lim. So obviously he didn't went down, went back to Singapore, didn't give him full support there.
But he earned it, know, he earned and he support and he repaid him twofold. So he will be trained at a rickenwith in Victoria and I'm really looking forward to the Marna being really successful again. Okay. We'll come back in a second. We'll get some stories about Hong Kong joining us. Stick with us on the Idaho Horse Podcast.
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Okay. Welcome back to the idle horse podcast. I'm Michael Cox. speaking with Brett Prebble. I want to talk Hong Kong. You know, it's where I know you best from it's where you're an all time great more than 800 wins. And it's where you had some of the great rivalries of modern racing. in particular with Douglas Whyte. Yeah, he's, obviously he was a fierce competitor, Douglas and obviously he bought the better out of me, the best out of me too. You know, I learned a lot from him off the track as
watching him as a person, art professional, the way he went around and he ran his business. And I think that's just showing on now, obviously going into a trainer there, you know, I don't think that's an easy task for anyone to be the top 24 trainers in Hong Kong. wouldn't like to do that job myself, you know, it'd be pretty tough and daunting and he's handled it very well, exceptionally well. So as a jockey, was just, he got there, he was there obviously a lot, lot, lot, six years or so before me or more.
but he was running the system and he had a very good system in place, how he did it. But he just kept improving, getting better every year. The way he did things, the way he did things faster, he was always ahead of the game, but getting the next ride, you know? One day I was there and I was like, I'm scratching my head, how's this bloke getting my rides or how'd he get on that horse?
You know, I got home that night after the Mini Valley, Happy Valley race meeting and I was ringing up to ride and said, Douglas is already on it. And I was like, how's this happening? I just got home and you know, and he's already gone. So I just kept watching him and well, he'd ride in one race in race six and then by race seven, he was speaking to the trainer after race six on the horse. I just rode it ran well and he'd already got on it for the next meeting. So it just was so, so far ahead of the game that everyone had to.
copy him and follow him or keep up with him or he was just so dominant, you know, and I gave him a run for his money there for a few years. long did it take you to realize that you could cry about it? then before you started thinking, well, I better start competing off the track as well as on. Yeah, I was, I was really, probably I was really jealous of him really, you know, I think in like, yeah, he's not that much better to jockey me than me, was Hong Kong is rating system as we all know. And if you're not on an all-idle rating.
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ride horse at the right rating, you had very half of the win, unless you give it an exceptional ride. And obviously he went to Happy Valley and I watched him how he rode to the place. He never left the rail and just find the rail. It was gold there back in the day. It really, really dominant. If you can find that rail from the C-Core C plus three, was just like gold. So, I worked at it very quickly and I followed that very quickly. So it was interesting. I loved my time there and my competition with him.
You know, we took it a bit too much to heart, you know, which I probably felt that that was more professional jealousism for myself. He used it as fire in his belly, I reckon, you know, he loved it. And Curtis saw him 13, premiership straight, know, Zach's, he's probably, he might equal his record, but he never did it straight. Let's talk about like how personal it got. I mean, now that you're retired and Douglas has moved on, I assume you guys get along fine now, but.
at its absolute peak were words. Would you trade barbs, was it verbal? Yeah, we were definitely verbal, you know, and he's hot-headed too. He's a Durban demon, you know, he was very hot-headed. He was quicker than tongue if you give him some, but he'd just work harder. He'd be at the gym the next morning after Happy Valley races and I'd be thinking, well, how's he doing? Where's the energy? But the energy was just because he wanted to be the champion, you know, and I never got there.
Just one thing to explain to listeners about Hong Kong as well, that the jockeys live basically, unless they choose to live off course, most of the jockeys and trainers live in three close buildings.
Very close. Kids, family, all in the same buildings. Did you live in the same building as Douglas? Yeah, and our kids went to the same school. We'd go to the restaurants next door at the clubhouse. We'd eat at the same restaurants opposite tables. And it was just a really...
fishbowl existence really that was, and obviously, yeah, you just, was no, there was no real escape. You just had to suck it up and deal with it the best we could. And, you know, we just take our rivalry away off the competition and attract really. was, it's an extraordinary thing to think of that there would have been times that you live there 11 months of the year that you go get into the elevator in your building.
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and there's a guy who's just beating you and taking your rides. What was that like? Yeah, that's right. And there was times when we didn't speak for a long time or we did, we'd be a grunt or a groan, you know. was just, and that was, you know, was just the nature of the beach at the time. And, know, Zach, was like, that was Zach there for a while. And, just certain things get under your guard there and you can't go away to Brisbane Carnival or Sydney Carnival for three weeks and have a freshen up and come back. you, you know, you.
holidays, know, breaks like a holiday, you know, so, it is, it's just constant, you're like a hamster on the, the treadmill, on the wheel, really, you know, you couldn't get away from unless you got a suspension, you'd sneak away for a couple of days, but, but all in all, yeah, we just lived in each other's pocket in a sense. What's your relationship with Douglas like now? Yeah, very good, you know, we speak often, you know, often, but we, a few times every, you know, three months or whatever, you'll send him a message or you send me one or, but, you know, I go.
popping down on Congo, going, when I was at Happy Valley last time, went and see him, actually a couple of nice photos and it was good. It was good to catch up and just chew the fat a little bit with him and talk how he's going there. He's, you know, he's really enjoying, loving these. He's a horseman. He loves, loves in his training and yeah, he's interesting to talk to. Just with that, the one season you finished second to him, I think six times out of the 13 titles. But one of them, 2009-10, you
pushed him as hard as anyone did until he eventually lost the support of John Size and relinquished the title to Zac. Just tell us about that particular season. There was a few key moments that probably got you. I was probably about 25 wins in front of him at one stage and I won the slipper and I got suspended on Crystal Lily. So she hung out really badly if I corrected her.
I don't think she wouldn't just slip her. I got back, had a decent suspension. I sort of sat on the sidelines and at the time we had a heap of race meetings in a row at Chart 10, is John's size and Douglas's playground. I just kept lining out three and four winners every meeting. So my 25 win buffer, and they cut it down pretty quickly. then John's young horses, just kept, he just kept turning them out and they just kept winning, obviously going for their grade, you know.
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He was exceptional at the way he held his horses. He used to wait a few months for them to get their energy back at the start of the season and they'd be all in front of him and horses would fly with fresh legs all at end of the season, keep winner after winner. He'd give his horses time to go through their grades and he just didn't kill his horses. And when Douglas was riding for him, was just so powerful, bouncing on the bunny and always racing the speed. Just easy ride, lovely, educated horses.
would fight like tigers for you. During that season, a key moment you've spoken to me about before, but never on the record, is that John Size, he's the main supporter of Douglas White. But during that season, you were also writing a little bit for John Size as it becomes apparent that you guys are in a, the two main contenders in clearing out. John Size actually comes to you and says, listen, Douglas is my guy.
I'm going to support him and not you. mean, how do you view that conversation now? How did you view it at the time? Yeah, well, was here, same thing. was professional jealousy. I was cursing, know, like I was like, it's massive. You're leading trainer and you can't, you know, I couldn't get a ride. I couldn't get a third stringer for him. I think he was putting Felix Gutzi on and a few other boys. And, you know, I was probably on a fifth pick if he had five in a race, you know, so I went down the food chain a fair way.
I didn't really, I didn't ride for him probably the last few months of the season and that's a massive difference. You take away that trainer who's training 25 winners in a couple of months. It makes a difference for your premiership at end of the year. And, you know, as a fairfee trainer I didn't ride fair. I rubbed them wrong way and didn't get along with them. And I did choose to ride for people I enjoyed to ride for because it gave me more longevity of staying there than really.
just riding with people I probably didn't really get along with, I didn't click with, you know, and there's a few there that which I didn't particularly like to ride an A4. I just want to jump in now. It's a good opportunity to talk about John Size that John Size isn't, it sounds like someone that you have that animosity towards. In fact, you think he's an incredible trainer. me about, people, for listeners that maybe aren't as familiar with Hong Kong racing and
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especially Australians, John Size left Australia as a young trainer on the rise. He'd won group ones, but he was the new trainer on the rise. Tell me about John Size, the trainer. Just extraordinary, really is what he does. He has a system and he doesn't divert from that by what I see, you know, he doesn't stretch his muscles, he doesn't overwork them.
And if you watch, you know, I think what he's done through these people who have gone through his system, they've taken on board and they've really adapted to what he does and they're doing it. they're, know, Pierre, for example, like his, you know, obviously he was with, think was with John, John Moore for a while, his dad, and then went to John's size. the style of training, not too similar to John, know, very...
light training, not overtaxing them and horses are very consistent for a long time. There's not really a place you can just go and turn them out for three months. I've been in Hong Kong, you don't have that luxury. I think what I did notice with John, made his horse become very tough and sound and race for a consistent for a very long time. And if they did have issues, he would retire them.
or he'd tell his owners to retire. But not often I would listen to that advice because they had, Hong Kong's different, they've got permits and obviously they return their horse, they don't have a horse. it would go on, they would move it on to another trainer and they would keep trying and you watch their form deteriorate and their rating deteriorate too quickly. So it was extraordinary the way he runs his business and his system is, I think people around the world have been trying to copy it for a long time now.
They've got some ideas off him and they're using it. Yeah, it's not often noted. I don't think I've ever seen it written or reported that John Sire's very quick to retire a horse with a heart irregularity or a bleeding episode. There must be some at his core like high integrity care. I mean, for animal. Yep, definitely. I'd asked him why, sometimes why he retired it. He said it's unhealthy.
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Yeah. And he said, I don't think it's, it's, it's got the constitutional health to be competitive here anymore. And I mean, hasn't just to be clear. hasn't just been slow horse. no, good horses. Lugo is one that comes to mind where the horse was having problems with heart irregularities.
He's a Derby winner. looked like the next, maybe he's best horse ever. for age to take, you know, champion ankle, elite there. know, champion. don't like using that word too, too loosely, but yeah, he could have easily taken to a league class there. I mean, that's the thing with, with size as well. There must be some sort of magic there and what he, he does, but maybe it's just hard work because in Hong Kong, you can see what every horse does. Every horse has a saddle cloth.
under floodlights in the morning, you can see what horse it is. It's easily identifiable when they swim it's marked down on the website. time that it run is on a database. You can analyze it. have treadmills. So you can't spin around a treadmill and get extra work into them. The punter or the people who don't know what they're doing. What is it then in between all of the, you know, the formula, which is a little bit different. He doesn't gallop his horses hard.
There is a formula there, but what, what is it about his personal quality with a horse? Do you think that makes him a special trainer? One thing I do notice about him is you watch the way his horses walk around and they just, they, the strappers are dragging them around. know, they're seldom, you get one that's jumping around being a lunatic. They're just placid sedate sort of happy horses, you know? you watch them often you hear Jenny from the paddock to her.
Just the way she speaks about it, just a casual dude rocking around the yard. And I think that's saving their energy. They're jumping around, getting hot, it's over sweating. Well, it's got to take some energy levels out of them, you ought to thought. So conserving that energy, think if I can take it out on a track and see the waste and then everywhere else, it's got to be beneficial, I would have thought. OK, you mentioned the word champions before. I want to come back. Let's take a break. I want to come back and talk about some of the great horses you rode.
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Here on the idle horse podcast, Michael Cox speaking with Brett Prebble. Let's talk about, I want to talk about horses and jockeys in Hong Kong. Just briefly, a couple of highlights. Horses, Sacred Kingdom is a sprinter that you climbed aboard to the latter part of his career. Tell me about where he ranks as far as talent of horses that you rode. Yeah, he was the best sprinter for sure. I don't think any horse rider had a...
turn a foot and he earlier when I first started get on him he had a long sustained sprint and that was serious but it definitely kept dwindling and getting smaller shorter and shorter he'd give you he'd give you a burst but it didn't last long and he didn't didn't chat he didn't fight he didn't once he got close to the to winning he was
He didn't go on with it, he must have lost his spirit, you know, but when I got him there, when I first got him from Gerald Mossay, he'd already come back from a bit of a poor suspensory or whatever he had. so he was a little bit damaged when I already got him, but what I feel I got, well, I would loved to have rode him 12 months earlier because that was probably at his career best, you know, he was an exceptional horse. I was very fortunate to see some, and ride some really good horses there. Bullish Luck, for example, he was amazing, probably as good as mile that we'd seen.
He was, he'd just stand him up 20 lengths at some time and he'd just mow him down like it was nothing, you know. His turn of foot was amazing, but he was a bit, he needed a real firm track to be like at his peak. But obviously today in the Yushidakin we got those fast speed, good firm ground and...
That was probably his best performance he'd ever produced other than probably beaten Silent Witness. Well, he was famous for the day that he ended the Silent Witness streak. I helped that happen actually. was funny story. Just to be clear, not on purpose. No, just the way I rode my horse because I actually got taken off. I got taken off Bullish Luck. So I was riding a horse called Ain't Here for David Hayes. anyway, Bullish Luck drew inside me. So I rode to basically pocket him. Anyway, Jerome, must say, was wanting to get off the fence.
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He never really want to be on the fence and all the way he's like, baby, let me out or not. I'm here. I'm here. Give me room. And I was like, I wasn't giving him my routing very tight and I wouldn't let him get out. And I knew Tony crew would like him to be back and go around every horse. So I rode a bit tactical to put him in a position where it was, it was going to be difficult for him. Anyway, I ended up coming out chase on it. When this went to win and my horse actually, he had a hemorrhage and bled that race. He still ran third, but long of a hole.
Gerald snuck up inside on the rail and got him really late. And I reckon if I left him to ride his own horse through how he would have normally rode him, he would have sat back and around them all. I probably wouldn't have beaten Solomon's on the day. So I do believe I sort of probably changed history a little bit by just being tactical and probably too tactical out there. think very next start is the Yusuf to Kinnun. And then you're back on bullish luck.
Tell me about this day. You've got a good story with this owner was very confident. Yeah, he's he had a good bet on him and he was very confident. He had a, at the time he had a yellow Lamborghini, which he promised me I could have, I could drive for 12 months in Hong Kong. And so I was, was very much looking forward to the next few days after I won on him, but because of just the rules and rules in Hong Kong for Hong Kong Jog Club, they, they knocked that on the head and said, it doesn't look good for the Hong Kong Jog Club. And, they.
Obviously as my contractor wasn't allowed to take gifts or monetary gifts. So yeah, we had to knock it back, but it would have been very, it would have been enjoyable for 12 months. Just for a moment or just for a few days, you thought you had it. Yeah, correct. But anyway, was, making a good story. The last horse I want to talk about is a horse that's very special to you. It's, and you've often said to me, not maybe not the best horse you rode, but he achieved a lot. Yeah. He won that. Yeah. which is lucky nine.
Yeah, he's a marvel. was, he had a lot of issues. He used to bleed terribly bad internally bleed, but Casper did an amazing job with him. Obviously couldn't stretch him. We stretched him early in his, in his career, but obviously found that that was probably more, he was more susceptible to having an internal. So it kept him as to sprinting and that just goes to show the, the versatility and the ability of him. If he could have got him to a mile, I reckon that's where you would have really seen a different rating.
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He would have gone to a whole new level, but the day I actually went on him over 1400, I think it was my first win on him. It was amazing. was one of the best feelings I've had or had in my career, the way when he let go and how much he tried. would, I didn't ride many horses that tried as much as him. He'd pin his ears back. And I hardly ever raised a whip on him. I'd wave it at him and he would just, he would, he would fight for you like you wouldn't believe. And it was just a...
just a really character awesome one that I had very fond of and had extremely satisfying sort of career with him. was seldom in Hong Kong, we had five seasons with horse without getting a chop and I was very fortunate that I had that long with him and traveled the world with him, to Japan numerous times, went to Singapore three times and Dubai and Australia and he was unlucky in Australia.
He was getting a bit quirky in his older age and he jibbed it a bit, one got around him and he jibbed it. So he should have won the one at Fleming, sorry, Moonee Valley. And that would have been, you know, just a feather in his cap. I would have loved to have won on him in Australia. He was, he's very special to me. was incredible. know, he won brilliantly in, in Singapore and he won brilliantly at times. The race I remember most fondly of him as an observer was a 2011 Hong Kong sprint. was a three-way finish.
Entrapment for John size, Joy and Fun, there are crews, jockeys, Brett Doyle on Joy and Fun and Douglas on entrapment. Just an incredible, you don't see a three horse war like that very often. that long. Yeah. just, he just didn't, wouldn't like, wouldn't like, once he got in front, he just, he would have run, he would have just kept running. Like he just wanted to win. Amazing. Great. Just, yeah. I was, yeah, I was that.
thrill when he went across the line because it felt like was like 600 meters of straight, you know, just because it was just a war, you know, and for him to come on top, which often he did, he got in that situation, he, seldom he let him get past him, which is, he's just courageous. Awesome. want to talk quickly about jockeys. We spoke a lot about Douglas White before, but you're very close friends with a great French jockey, Olivia Deleuze, who rode
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a lot in Hong Kong when you were there. I want to talk about French jockeys and the influence of global jockeys on you and your style and on Hong Kong, that melting pot of styles you have there with jockeys from all around the world. But first I just want to ask you about Oli, Olivier Deleuze and the influence he's had on you as a person. Yeah, he's a family friend. He's like my brother, basically. He's close thing to me as a brother for sure. And we're in close contact and we go skiing with him.
every year if we can. the last two years we've been to Val d'Azur skiing with him and his family and we spend 10 days there. And it's great just getting back and spending time with him again. Obviously he's retired and he just keeps very active. I was surprised he didn't find something else he wishes to do, he lives a great life. He travels around with his wife and obviously his kids are much grown up and he's a person that...
He made Hong Kong a lot easier for me. We were really close in the sense that we'd eat at each other's houses, family was close and great rivalry to compete against. He actually was happy when you won and as much as you'd be happy for him when you won. You'd fight, you're going to war to win each other in that race, but when you hit the line and you'd be more
happy for each other to win because we just had good respect for each other. was a fierce competitive jockey, strong, fit. He wouldn't give me many jockeys as fit as him ever in the world, I reckon. I've seen a lot of jockeys and his fitness level is pretty intense and insane. just, yeah, rode differently. It was not for everyone's taste and he did different things and it worked. know, think some of his rides on good barbell was
quite extraordinary. There's a photo of him one time, how he got his head to come down on a line. He was him and Frankie Dottori, which is, he grew up with Frankie, him and his Frankie's sorry, Olivia's father and Frankie's father used to be, they fought the premiership out in Milan or Italy 10, 12 years in a row, you know, so they grew up together. just his connection with people, he's just a lovely person and I'm obviously very fortunate to be so close.
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I want to talk about the influence of you, come out of Australia or, know, a Melbourne champion from a champion apprentice before, you have a very distinct style, which is the Australian style coming in, which is like, you know, get them out of the gates, quick tour spot, find the rail. Yeah. Hard and finish racing tight, but then you get to Hong Kong and there's guys doing things a little bit differently, particularly the French influence for guys like Olivia Deleuze or Marseille.
And, Christophe Soumyon is Belgian, but rode in France. Tell me about how that looked to you as a young jockey coming into that arena. Yeah. I used to always, when I was younger, always playing around with my style. And I used to love watching replays of the top jockeys around, Cas Asmussen and they'd molded the jockey style over the years from the sort of American, European. And then we adapt, we adapted from that, you know, for the Australian style, we changed ours, you know.
but Australians always probably a few years behind the Americans and the Europeans, you know, but now it's probably, it's leveled up and, I think the style now, I don't see, I won't see probably change in the next 10 years. I don't think you can, you know, I think they've adopted a style now that's really, I think very successful and.
It's very, what's the word you could say? It's probably some universality. Correct. Correct. And it's not, can be riding in different countries, but you could not know where they're from because the styles have leveled up and, it's got to that sort of, sort of situation. Yeah. guess with the travel now that like Brian Moore will be riding at Delmar this weekend, he'll probably jump on a plane with a bunch of them and come and ride on Tuesday in the Melbourne Cup.
Yeah, Gerald was very different. rode, you he didn't ride with his tail on the iron, full foot. He's a bit like Huey, you know? So there's no right or wrong way or exact way to ride. It's what works for you and what's a good feel for you and the horse, you know? What you get the best tune out of that horse. Obviously Eric St. Martin, like amazing, beautiful style. Probably the best style you see anywhere in the world, but just really hot-headed, aggressive and ride quite dangerous sometimes, you know?
Idol Horse (39:55.842)
You know, he'd be very mindful of if you're inside him and he, you know, he's, wanted to win. He, he, did, he let you know pretty quick what he was doing. So yeah, he had to arrive with your wits about you because they all rode differently. And Gerald, he was happy to sit three deep and not give you any pressure and not bump you. Eric was still French, but he was rode very different than Gerald, you would say, right? So their styles are very unique in all ways, but just.
champion in their own right, in their own way, trying to get past them. And if they're on a horse with the right rating, very hard to beat. You mentioned Eric Sam Althoen and his hotheadedness. I mean, he brought a different influence to Hong Kong racing. There were a few incidents there where he, were you there the day when he let fly outside the Stewards Room? Yeah, was there as a few. Which one? The one where he returned in his...
dressing gown to front the stewards. So I want to ask about this, were you there that day? I was there, but I didn't, obviously. I wasn't in the stewards room and that, but he got fined for obviously some of whatever he said, his evidence ticket in the stewards room. He asked him why he'd come in shorts and flops and he said, I'd already been home. And I come back and I asked him, why did you go home? Why'd you leave without permission to go in? He said, I wanted to go home and prepare my red wine and open it up.
like this, apparently. Anyway, they said, well, you shouldn't have left. He said, well, I needed to go home and tell him for this story. want to go home and open his wine and prepare his dinner. And I gave him a phone for his reasoning. But he was very different. Actually, still friends with him. Different, completely different person now. He's not riding. Very relaxed and very enjoyable company. One more jockey I want to ask you about, because I know you've got a lot of respect for him a lot of time is Christoph Sumion.
never rode full time in Hong Kong. don't think he would come during the winter, come in into a system that you're talking about where it was a great influence, a great time in Hong Kong racing. You could have someone like Douglas dominating, but then have this spark plug come in from the outside and ride it 20 plus percent stroke. Tell me how he did it. he was, he's just, he was strong. He's competitive. He's he rode tactical. He rode, he just do things that other jockeys didn't do. You know, he was.
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He was going to, he was going to the outside fence. I'm like one of the winds that really stands in mind was a Viva Bataka. That was a machine, one of the best weight for age horses since I rode there. Went to the outside fence, one by about 10 lengths. Like an Indian that went in the Derby on him and just did stuff that people weren't doing. They just were riding norm and he wasn't a norm, you know, he was, and, for a tall jockey too, was balanced and bit strong and, and, and he was, he was aggressive.
but in a calculated, aggressive way to ride. He was still a beautiful horseman, but strong in the finish. He'd blink an eye, he'd be swapped, I'd whip over to one hand to the other. His balance is amazing. He'd ride him going to the barriers with the horse was playing up, no irons, he'd be flat out going to barriers with no irons, and he'd educate him going to the barriers, and I'd teach him the lesson going there, and then he'd come out and win on it.
stuff that he was doing, it was just outside the norm that people just, all jockeys just did, know, people just didn't take chances there because he was scrutinised. He didn't sort of care, he'd come in for six weeks and tore the place apart. If one right went wrong, he didn't care, it was water off a duck's back for him because he'd come out and an X-ray. he was his own person, he just...
Yeah, he was probably the best jockey I've ever played against. That scrutiny you mentioned, I mean, it comes from everywhere in Hong Kong pressure. mean, how much did that wear on you during your time there? there's, stewards inquiries are as intense as anything explained, like even mistakes. It's not necessarily an indictment on your integrity necessarily, did it get pulled into the stewards? It's if you ride a bad race, there's a
bunch of questions to answer. Yeah, I've seen a few jockeys get done there that I believe they were pretty hard done by just because they made a mistake. They weren't doing something unto ward or their integrity. know, when Jamie Steele was there, think a couple of jocks got done for, you know, one of those riding, running and handle charges, you know, and I thought they pretty hard done by, you know, like we're human, we make a mistake, you know, you're not out there to...
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to purposely get it wrong. You normally make a mistake on that horse, you ride it next day, you don't make that mistake again, you know, if you do, you are entitled to get the sack off it, you know, so it was tough in those sort of sense, but you had to, that was the place we're in, and they're scrutinized, obviously, Jockey Club, they were getting thousands of letters written in after each meeting about how people erode or horses ran or, you know, people were betting on it and they're losing their money, so they,
disappointed and they'll, you know, they'll give in their reviews of what they felt was wrong or right. That's, that's an interesting observation that we should probably share. Tell us about, you know, the place of racing in, in Hong Kong society, like the, the level of maybe suspicion around jockeys, around rides and just its place in society. can explain to an Australian or an English or an American listener what it's like to live.
in Hong Kong, which isn't a big city geographically. There's 7 million people there. you're jammed in. How many times when you're out and about, the interactions you have with the general public? obviously when I was at my peak, you're always riding winters on that day. It was funny when you're in Kowloon, the majority probably knew you. older population did. They're not so much a younger population when I was there.
as you go over the central, it wouldn't be noticed as much in the more business people, people from other places in the world. But KAL and Chimshashewe, these areas, they have very true diehard racing fans, you know, so you would be seen, you just, couldn't go down there and not be noticed, know, and like Zach Perton, he'd be noticed everywhere, you know, and he's obviously been there a long time and at his peak of his power. he's like a movie star, you know, and
Yeah. Like Takataki in Japan. Like he can't walk down the street and not be noticed. know, like he's, you know, he's just the elite champion jockey there for 40, 30 something years, you know, and I think the Asian culture, they just loved, loved their racing. So I just want to close up. Thanks for joining us. And, just what's next for Brett Prebble. I wanted to come back to one thing, which is your son Thomas now race riding. mentioned your difficulties in.
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When you're watching a race, being able to park your instincts and your competitive street. What's it like watching your, your son Thomas riding a race? Yeah, it's interesting. Obviously, you know, I'll be there and I'll be saying, come out Thomas, I'll go or wait or go to you and see how this or that. And I'll be watching him in wherever you go, left or right. What I'll be actually thinking I'll be doing out there. And, often I would ask him afterwards how, how he was asked to ride the horse, instructions, just because.
how races are run, know, what to how he's thinking, what's his mindset, what's his plan for that race before you go into it. I don't know what his plan is from his trainer because I'm not aware of that until after the race I can ask him how he's rode it and then I can piece that puzzle why he rode it that way or where he was in that position and I can help him sort of make some calculated decisions on whether it was wrong one or right one or play that percentage most times, you know, so.
It's interesting to be watching him. I don't get too involved. I let him make his own mistakes and I think that's best way to learn. Someone being a helicopter parent, I think that you gotta give him their space and learn to grow. And he's 22 years of age, he's an adult and he's gonna make wrong decisions and gonna make right ones. Hopefully he makes more right than wrong. He's got a good head on his shoulders. He's the most disciplined jockey I've studied.
come across in my time. So credit to himself there, you know, it's a game that's relentless and often not very rewarding for what effort and time you put into it. So I feel that he's got the desire and the dedication, the discipline, which is probably, if he's not a champion, it will take him a long way anyway, because you need that in the game to be just resilient at it because there's so many knocks.
I didn't, pushed him away for years and not to be a jockey, but he decided to do it. And, obviously I'll give him full support and help where I can, but without, as I said to you, without having too much involvement. I mentioned before that the jockeys trainers all living in these three buildings right on course at Chartier and those three buildings have created or generated incredible amount of jockeys now. mean, let's go from Zach and Jaden Lloyd.
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Luke Ferraris. Luke Ferraris. Schofield. Yeah, Chad Schofield. Campbell Rewillers. Yeah. Ridden in races over on the flat. Numerous wins. Mike DeLuz had a go. Yeah, and first ride, first win. Yeah. just too big. He would have kept riding. I'm sure I might even be forgetting. There's Dale Pesci's kids. There's Neil Cullen's kids riding at the moment, riding winners. There's so many jockeys that have come out of those three apartment buildings. you know, and what's very interesting about it is
They're not allowed any involvement. Can't get a racist. Stand on a fence. They sit on that fence outside the apartment. out to us as we're going past the finish post. That's the closest I can get. So it's very interesting that it's it's born in them. It's in the blood. So tell me about Thomas's journey then. You said you pushed him away from it. Was he coming to you and, he's close with some of the guys, I assume, in the buildings there? Yeah, he was obviously in.
Luke went away, he left probably Hong Kong about 16 and went and did boarding school, went to apprentice academy and he was up and running very quickly. But Luke rode a lot in Hong Kong. Thomas and Georgia did a little bit at a young age, but Thomas didn't really enjoy it that much and Georgia kept riding. She rides lovely. I'd love to get her to do some question riding and that now because she's a really lovely rider and I think she'd enjoy that. Be a nice out for her and something different. But when I moved back to Melbourne, I saw her.
I'd actually enjoy going and a of that with her. think that'd be, be, just enjoyable for both of us. And I think, with Thomas, he just, I think he had no, nothing. He really got his teeth into getting the year 12 and didn't know what he wanted to do. I don't think he was really wrapped in school. And I felt that a lot of his friends really love racing him as, as like a lot of young kids in, in school do they love it. So.
double pushing him, why don't you be a jockey or, you know, cause I was at the time riding, was doing okay too. And I was quite successful when I come back. So I just think he thought to himself, why not? You know, he was a bit heavy and he was there. He wasn't that fit at the time. So he's worked really hard now and he'd have a body fat of 4%, which is, you know, it's pretty, pretty lean. He's quite tall. He's probably five eight. So he's done a good job. He's credited to himself. He worked hard and he's made a career out of it already of himself.
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what high tickets do, we know and I know that. What changed between you pushing him away and saying, okay, give it a go? Yeah, well, because he wasn't really doing much, he was doing a real estate course with Lou Randina, so he was doing that. And on the weekend I said to him, come to Flemington and do my valet. Anyway, so Patrick Mills, which is family friends, Craig's valet, old Denny Mills was my valet.
back in the day, which is Patrick's grandfather. So he sort of come and he's mates with Patrick so he can get, be in the room with him talking. I'd pay him and he'd help me be doing a bit of LA work for me. So, and he sort of got his, he kept doing that and sort of getting used to a little bit in the rooms. And I think he's got the bug and got the desire. So yeah, so then we just put him down the path. went, same path I went to. He went to Terry O'Sullivan down in Stull, then he went to Johnny Ma and he did some work experience at Troy Corsons and
He went to Julian Wells for a couple of days and then he went down to Steve Patemans for a few months. He was working for him down there. then he went to Peter Moody for a year or so. you know, he's had a good grinding of some good horsemen he's went to work with and got some experience from him and taken a fair bit from it. Now he's obviously with his uncle Patrick. So hopefully that some of that can rub off him because Patrick obviously was a champion.
champion jockey and a champion trainer. just, you know, sort of, Thomas a bit the other day, someone wrote in a paper that he was a champion jumps trainer. He was like, God, she's not about that. Like that's a bit harsh, you know, that's fair. I don't categorize him as a jumps trainer. So yeah, that's good on him up for Patrick. Of course, Patrick Payne and, and yeah, an incredible, incredible horseman, whatever the discipline, whether he was in the saddle or, or training. it's been great joining you.
Brett, and we're really looking forward to hearing you on Sky Racing during the Spring Carnival. I'm sure you'll make a great fist of it as you did with your riding. Yeah, well, let's hope so. Hopefully the people get some enjoyment out and I get some good feedback and hopefully it's something I can keep pursuing in the future. Well, you're always welcome back here on the Idaho Horse Podcast. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Cochrane. Thank you.