Hattie Hlad - 0:03
Driven by Excellence, your trusted place for all things logistics and road safety. Today we are joined by Pip Bains, arguably one of the most knowledgeable people in the logistics and compliance sector. Pip has carved himself out a 20-year career within logistics and is here today to share his thoughts and expertise for you, our listeners. Pip, thank you so much for joining us here today at our PDT Driven by Excellence Recording Studio. I know you and our director have crossed paths many times during your careers and she was really keen to invite you on. We have a lot of hot topics to delve into, so let's get started. Although many of our listeners may be familiar with you, can we start with an introduction to Pip Bains? Who is Pip Bains and what has your 20-year career within logistics been like?
Pip Bains - 0:50
Who's Pip Bains? Pip Bains is passionate, he's enthusiastic, he's emotional and he believes. So the 20 year journey I went on, I didn't wake up one day and think, you know, I'm going to get into transport. That's what I will be doing. I just, I had the same dream as most kids did. I wanted to be the greatest footballer of all time or pilot a plane across the world and then I sort of fell into transport, did a CPC back in 2002, decided from there that, I've really enjoyed it. I really liked the content, really liked what I was learning from it and then just by chance a job came up. I think it was the FTA, Freight Transport Association, where they wanted somebody to work in their members' advice centre which was looking at things like legislation and relaying that into the bigger industry. So I actually advised in really really big players on how to operate legally and compliantly. I applied for it, I thought you know it'd be okay. I did the first interview and the questions I was asked and the conversations I sort of relayed to was, "This is really interesting. "I really like this, this is my niche." and then going for the second interview, and then actually passing it and being offered the role, I thought, wow, I was what, in my 30s? I found my niche and it was really good and then to sit in a room with people relaying legislation, I thought, this is too much, this is over my head. These guys are talking about, as lawyers and barristers and they really know their stuff. But over time, I learned and I learned more and I learned more and even though I was being told and said I can't study it, I needed to know for myself, is that right, is that correct, are we giving the right information to our members, our then members. From there I was, I went into training, I started training and legislation to different companies and different types of people and it just evolved. From there I was approached by quite a lot of companies come and work from. So I was quite humbled I suppose and blessed to be able to to pick a role that I could get into that I knew would help me advance in my career as well and so moving on and moving upwards, it's been a journey. It's been a 20 year journey to meet some fantastic people, some wrong people, some people that shouldn't be in the industry and should be out and some operators probably that shouldn't be in the industry as well. But the journey for me has been really, really good and really, really interesting and my My advice to most people out there is, listen, you might just fall into your niche, you might not even know what you want to do and when you fall into it, well, you can really grab it by the horns and you put everything into it, absolutely everything into it because you believe.
Hattie Hlad - 3:30
Absolutely. Wow, that is an expansive career. Thank you for sharing that. We know that you are a vocal ambassador for safety within logistics. Why is that? What makes you so passionate about it?
Pip Bains - 3:42
I care. I genuinely care. I think nobody knows me quite well and I have two sentences. The first one is we're giving keys to human beings to a 40-tonne killing machine and in the wrong hands, that's exactly what it is. So we have to make sure that the roads, the drivers, members of the public are all protected, that these vehicles are safe. They're looked after well. The drivers themselves know exactly what is expected from them and that's what it is. it's that passion to really, really care. You do not come into this industry, you can't come into it half-heartedly. You know, it's Marmite, you either love it or you hate it.
4:21
Don't go for the middle, 'cause if you go in the middle, you're not putting everything into it. When you come into it, you have to make that difference and I think there's a really good saying out there, you’re just gathering specs of dust to build a mountain, and that's what you have to do. But you have to also take people on that journey with you to make sure they fully understand, what's expected of them, and why, and the consequences. If you look at most things, when you look at an accident, or a fatality, there's always gonna be a lorry nearby, either involved or just in that vicinity and that's when you realise that we're in an industry that yes, it's heavily regulated, we know that, and it is heavily enforced as well. But we can make it safe, and we can make it good, and we can make it a really, really good sector to come and work in. So with that passion and that enthusiasm, that's what you gotta get with everybody. That's how you invite people in.
Hattie Hlad - 5:09
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, out of all of what you've done, what would you say has been your career highlight? You know, one of those moments where you've sat back and thought, I've made a positive change here.
Pip Bains - 5:21
There's been a few. I think the most notable ones that I can refer to is actually sitting, as I did, as I mentioned earlier, at FTA, ivory towers, we called it. When you're sitting in ivory towers, you're telling everybody how to do everything, but you're not actually having to be there and watch it happen. So to actually come away from that and down to earth, as I call it, and actually be in an operation, and then be able to look at the operation, look at legislation and how that's supposed to fit in, and what good looks like and when people are looking at you thinking, you can't do it, it's impossible, you can't marry the two up. But then to plant that seed and then watch it grow, and then get everybody's buy-in, and they're all partners and you come on that journey with you and actually it does work. You can operate legally, you can still be profitable, and you can be safe. So to me it's just taking that seed, planting it and watching it grow, which is brilliant.
6:11
The biggest things that I've done and where I've ended up, I've ended up in rooms I probably think I shouldn't be in. I've ended up in 1 George Street at Westminster where we have a National Council where we can lobby for or lobby against legislation and we have a voice. I'm British, Asian and to be sat in that room and to be the only person of my background to be sat in that room, it's daunting, but you think, hey, hey, look, I've made it and then to have people that listen to me and are actually paying attention to what I say, something that's always stuck with me was first sitting in this room, or it's a massive room and loads of people obviously sat in there, you have to press the microphone and ask for permission to speak and to be then in that and being a bit nervous at first and thinking, you know, I don't think I belong here, but then suddenly picking up momentum, having a point, having a valid point and pointing it across. I think one day I was in the restroom and I was just coming out the restroom and there was an elderly gentleman in there who's been in this room for a lot of years and was quite vocal in this room and he was coming out the restroom I had the door open for him to let him out and he looked at me he said “no no you go you're the future we're the past”. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. It really makes you realise hey I've made it, I've done something.
Hattie Hlad - 7:27
So we've talked about highlights but what has been the biggest challenges for you within your career?
Pip Bains - 7:32
Yeah, there's been a, well, we just hit on it a little bit earlier. Diversity is massive. As I said, I'm walking into meetings, I'm walking into operations, I'm walking into areas and I'm not seeing a lot of British Asian people that senior. Yes, I know there's a massive need, I totally get this to bring females into the industry and there absolutely is. But there's just enough, I think for me, just isn't a bigger need to, to, to get the right sort of people as well, that the British Asians more involved. It's brilliant. It's a fantastic industry to work for and I've felt some challenges. I've been in situations where it has been apparent that I'm British Asian, and I've realised that I am, and I've been reminded that I am, but it just makes me stronger. It makes me want to make sure we do everything properly. It makes me want to believe in what I do, and know that I can get that message across and to me, I'm going to get that. The other side of challenges that you'll always have in this industry isn't processes, it isn't policies, it isn't implementing what it is that you feel looks good and works, it's actually changing behaviours, it's cultural and behavioural change, that is a massive challenge. I can go anywhere and introduce a new piece of legislation or maybe even put a process in, but if I can't change people's mindsets, then I can't do absolutely anything about that.
Hattie Hlad - 8:53
I'm so glad that you've shared that with our listeners, because as you know, we really championed diversity in this industry and believe change can only happen when people speak up about their experiences. So that was really valuable. What do you think we could do better in the industry to increase diversity within the sector?
Pip Bains - 9:12
Firstly, we can't ignore it. It does exist and it still exists and this belief that it's gone away now, it hasn't. It absolutely hasn't. We've got to get into the right communities. We've got to advertise in the right communities and we've got to make it far more attractive because at the moment, from my own personal experiences, there is a fear, there is a fear of coming to this industry because people just don't think they will progress and what we have to do is get out there and we do it, like we said, we just hit on the shortages of females in the industry and we go out there, we do it and we want to get into the curriculum and get that, we need to get out into the schools, we need to make sure people and different backgrounds of people understand what this industry is about. But once we get them in, we have to just accept that it's acceptable, it's okay. We're not in the 1980s anymore, this is 2023. It's a lot more different now and there's a lot of hardworking individuals out there. Not everyone's gonna progress in this industry, I totally, I absolutely get that. But the percentages for Asians and any kind of background, it's very, very low. And we've got to start building this up and like I said myself, I've been through it all. I've seen the dark side of it. I've seen the good side of it. Is it getting better? It's probably hidden away, far more than it ever was before. I still have that moment where somebody does not know me. They're meeting Pip for a meeting, and I'll go downstairs and they do a step back and I instantly know what that means and it tells me straight away, this is not what they were expecting to see, is somebody in such a senior role to come down and talk to them. So, let's believe, let's all act as one, but the most important thing, let's make roads safe. It doesn't matter who's doing it, let's just make them safe.
Hattie Hlad - 11:00
We've delved into your career and experience. So with that all in mind, I'm going to fire some sector related questions at you. So our listeners can gauge your opinion and views on some key topics within logistics. Are you ready?
Pip Bains - 11:12
Yes.
Hattie Hlad - 11:13
Okay. Let's start big. How do you see the logistics sector evolving over the next 10 years and what trends do you forecast?
Pip Bains - 11:20
I think it's still going to be up and down as it is. There's uncertain times in the districts at the moment, with everything that's going on in the background as well. There's going to be quite a lot of changes that we will be seeing, we're witnessing and things do need to change. For my particular area of concern, there's going to be changes to legislation, I feel, as well. There's going to be an approach to the driver's CPC itself, that's going to be revisited. There's whisperings or consultation currently around maybe getting rid of the seven-hours training altogether and having a one and a half hour quiz every five years, which to me is absolutely ridiculous. The training itself with drivers, if we're saying they are professional drivers and that's what they are, they need training.
12:03
They need to have that little bit of getting into a classroom, if that's what it is, and just being reminded, being refreshed, but also being developed into being absolutely brilliant at what they do. There is going to be, again, there's going to be changes around the work in time regulations itself. That looks like it's going to be revisited. I've never been a fan, if I'm absolutely honest. I've looked at it and it's predominantly employment law. That's what it is. If I was to wave a magic wand, I think for me, we would take the six hour rule and put that into driver's hours and maybe the 48 hour working average, put that into driver's hours as well. The rest of it, I think is absolutely one of those things that we probably could do without and the roads will still be safe. the element of safety will still be there. But it's these sort of areas for me in my area of expertise that probably need to be revisited and are being revisited. But let's do it keeping in mind what the impact is. So for the working time itself, yeah, get that. For the driver's CPC, hey, listen, reduce it maybe down from seven to five hours, fine. But no, this five years of one test, I'm not agreeing with that at all.
Hattie Hlad - 13:11
That was really interesting, Pip. So the last one was big, let's go even bigger, let's talk environmental. What is your view on the government's pledge for zero emission HGVs by 2040?
Pip Bains - 13:23
Well, it's got to happen. We know that and we will have to be environmentally friendly and there's going to be areas I feel that we probably will, we're going to have some maybe doubt or concerns around and predominantly from that it's going to be the infrastructure. Will it be ready? Will there be enough charging points, if that's what we want to call them, around so that the country can still carry on the way that it needs to go. Is it doable? What is it, 2035 for anything up to 26 tonnes and then anything after that up to 2040? We can't keep on giving everything a grace period, can we? We know what we're expected, we've had enough time, so we've got to start probably looking and start the road now, which is being started now. But again, the cost itself, it's going to hit the smaller operators really, really hard so there's going to have to be some leniency from the government itself to support that in some way and the infrastructure, getting it ready. I mean I have silly questions even now where people say to me hang on if we've got an electric vehicle and there's a massive traffic jam on the motor what if it runs out of power? What are you going to do? How does that work? We've got to take everything into account and we need to make sure that we know exactly what we're doing and then moving forward, we have to do it, but we have to make sure it's done properly as well.
Hattie Hlad - 14:38
That makes sense. Let's move on now from environmental and onto the biggest issues faced by our sector in decades. We're nearly seven years on from the UK's decision to leave the European Union. Brexit is still proving the biggest headache for British businesses, ranking higher than Russia's war in Ukraine, COVID or even rising energy costs. What do you think the impact of Brexit has been and how have you managed them within your roles?
Pip Bains - 15:03
It's been massive. It's been huge and there's no getting away from that. There's been a lot of uncertainty and massive. You'd go to the drawing board with one version of Brexit thinking that's how it's going to suit the operation and literally it could be two days later you're back in the room again trying to sort it out and make it fit in again. Did we agree with it? Well, you can say politically, I can say no, absolutely not, we didn't say. But it is here, but I just think that it was... It's almost one of them things when I look at when we implement something or make a change, It's like we do it and then afterwards we're picking up the pieces. Really we should be prepared for it up to that point and we should know exactly how it should work and then how we should filter it in and for my area, again, it was this exodus of uncertainty from staff, drivers and warehouse. They didn't know what was going on. So probably going back to their homeland and there was a massive area around that and then there was a shortage, wasn't there, which impacted on drivers and staff and warehouse staff, etc. Agencies, employees were suddenly having to rob Peter to pay Paul and so it was then trying to assure people, "No, don't… stay, it's going to be okay”. Obviously there are going to be new areas that we're going to have to look at and new approaches that we're going to have to make. It just seemed like a really poor set up that just went from bad to worse and is it getting any better? No, people are still confused.
Hattie Hlad - 16:26
Yeah and how did you manage that though, if people came to you with questions and concerns?
Pip Bains - 16:31
It was that, it was looking at different, how could we look at it differently? Could we implement different, we looked at things like having to maybe train from within for staff when it came to drivers. It was this old age, old thing about warehouse to wheels. Is that the way we do it now? And actually start getting people from the country to actually become drivers, getting people that wouldn't have thought about it in the past. So looking at things like that. It was also having… looking at the government's idea of these seasonal workers, which was an absolute farce. We'll get seasonal workers in, so as they come in, as you peak, you can get people in from abroad. Okay, so what we'll do, we'll end up paying a thousand pounds to get these people over here, do an assessment on them, realise they can't drive the vehicles and they're not safe, having to send them back. So how does that work? So it doesn't, and again, the only thing you could do or try and do was reassurances, change your operation in a way, try and be a little bit more savvy with planning, et cetera, but also seeing if you can actually start developing from within.
Hattie Hlad - 17:29
In addition to the challenges faced due to Brexit, we're now three years on from the beginning of the pandemic. What was that like to operate through? What did you think about the government's response and support for logistics?
Pip Bains - 17:40
The roads were a lot clearer, that was the fact, because nobody was out and about. How was the government support? The pandemic itself, if we think about how it happened and the time it happened, so we were dealing with Brexit, we had Covid and then we had IR35 in a really, really short period. Again, massive impact on workforces everywhere across the whole country. Did the government help? Or did they, there's a little bit of relaxation to drivers hours, wasn't there? So there was a relaxation to testing the vehicles. But to me, what was the point in relaxing drivers hours when the roads are empty anyway, the drivers are getting around a lot quicker than they ever did, because if it was stopping them getting around, again, it's that thing where we'll support you and we'll do things differently because you've got this issue, but whereas the biggest issue was let's just give everything a little bit of a grace period. Let's get over the hurdles of COVID then slowly let's implement IR35. Let's look at it properly and then make sure we've handled that bit. Now you're going to go and talk about or implement IR35 and it just didn't happen. It was just like, cope with it, get on with it and resolve it and it was huge. Again, it was another big impact that the industry didn't need to have. It was on its knees. It's absolutely on its knees. I was looking at drivers, obviously the people that could still work in mid-pandemic.
19:01
Drivers coming tired from what they had to do and we weren't overworking, we would never ever overwork a driver. We stayed away from the relaxation as well. It was a different sort of time. It really was, it was quite stressful for us and there was also the anger of the people that didn't have to come in and sat at home and you know, the industry was, we weren't getting clapped on a Thursday, that's a fact. But you know, without this industry, without these wheels turning, and you wouldn't be food, there wouldn't be food on your tables. And then that's the biggest thing for me, if the pandemic taught us anything, it's that this industry, the transport industry has to work still for everything. It has to be there. It has to be at the forefront. It has to make sure that PPE is getting to the hospitals. It has to make sure that food and drink is getting to shelves and did the industry get as much support as it should have? No, absolutely not. But I'll always say that because I always thought there's never enough support for this industry.
Hattie Hlad - 19:51
Yeah I can understand that. Finally the last meaty question on our quickfire round, we can't let you leave without asking what your thoughts are on all of the LGV changes that have been brought in over the last few years.
Pip Bains - 20:05
Well having passed my test in the mini metro back in 1986 and then looking at my very first roll where somebody said to me, what do you want to do? I said “I think I'll be a van driver while I figure out what I'm going to do” and then being handed the keys so 7.5 tonne long long wheelbase vehicle and looking at thinking, "Hang on, I'll just come out of a mini metro and that's a lorry, I can't drive that and that person saying, "Oh no, no, you have the entitlement on your licence, you have a C1E107, you can drive that vehicle." I've never been so scared in all my life. I was trying to reverse into areas that I couldn't even reverse the mini metro into. So, I understand a bit to go from B to C+E. I was an advocate for that, but I did think that was a good idea. But on the proviso, the drivers still had some form of training in a rigid vehicle. So they did a couple of weeks in a rigid, and then it would go up, and then they could do their C+E test. This allowance now from car to 7.5, and if that's what they want to do, no. I'd have to say absolutely not. When I was out and about, trust me, in the 1980s, the roads were a lot quieter, and it was only horse and carts and milk floats lying around.
21:14
Other than that, we were all right. As we get on now, as you can appreciate, nearly every household has nearly two to three cars. There's a lot more traffic out on the roads. And I was very nervous as well with this allowance of now being able to tow a trailer without having a B+E. So really, I'm pretty certain it was a horsing community that decided, let's get on this one quickly, because we now don't need to do R+E. We can now tow our horse box everywhere if we want to, and tow caravans. If we're asking about the professional side of driving, which is going from something like a B to C+E but correctly trained up to C+E level, absolutely fine. If we're saying to novices, here's the keys to a seven and a half tonne vehicle, absolutely not. We're trying to keep danger and dangerous people off the roads. We're not trying to add to that. So for me, no. I wouldn't, I think like I said, for professional drivers that need a license, absolutely. But other than that, just leave it as it is.
Hattie Hlad - 22:12
Okay, so if your wish would be for a new LGV driver who has started out at PAPB to be given experience in a class two before they're given the keys to a class one, who do you think this responsibility falls to?
Pip Bains - 22:27
I think we should make it mandatory, absolutely. But I also think that any training company worth their salt wouldn't want to do it any other way anyway. So if we're looking at, like we said, we are taking a set of keys from a car and then potentially to then be given a license 44-tonne killing machine as we've alluded to earlier, then the process should be exactly the same but without the test for the rigid or the class two. So make it mandatory, make them have some form of training, even put a program together that it has to consist of, something that even DVSA could look at to implement, and then make sure that's carried out before they actually then go and sit their class one and then it probably has an add-on to that as well. Whenever you go into an organisation, I'm at Linkline Transport now, so when you come into us, we'll take the driver out on an assessment anyway, in a Class 1 vehicle. So, they've got the Class 1 licence, so you take them out on an assessment. They're never left on their own, and they're nurtured and they're mentored, and they make sure that everything's okay, and we get what we want, and they get what they want from that.
23:29
But up to that point, let's make sure they've been trained absolutely properly, correctly, they know what's expected in any type of vehicle and then once they've got their licence, then there's a massive onus on the operator themselves to make sure they assess the driver properly, they train the driver properly, and they don't just chuck them out there into the deep end. Give them lesser runs, give them runs that are only gonna take a few hours. So they're not gonna panic, they're not gonna get nervous, they're not gonna suddenly start putting their foot down to get around quicker and causing damage to the vehicle. They have that little bit of an area where they can slowly get a good handle of the vehicle itself, but also the operation, because don’t forget, it's a brand new industry for them as well that are coming into. But if we do it properly, we follow the processes, so mandatory from getting your class one, a couple of weeks on a class two vehicle, learning the roads, a proper assessment, proper training, proper vehicle familiarisation, and then don't chuck them in the deep end. That should get you a tick in every box.
Hattie Hlad - 24:28
Sounds good. I'm sure our listeners will agree that this has been really informative. But just to finish off our conversation, whilst I was researching you for this episode, I came across your LinkedIn posts where you shared openly your career plans to become a traffic commissioner. What steps are you taking to achieve this goal?
Pip Bains - 24:47
The steps started back in 2003 when I joined the FDA. I've got my first insights of the FDA and I've got my first insight into legislation and operations and what good looks like and I've been on that career path ever since. I want to be the very first British Asian to be a traffic commissioner and not just because I want to do it because I'm British Asian, I want to do it because I have a right and I believe in what I believe in and I believe that it doesn't matter who you are, what you are, if you're good and you understand and you understand what good looks like, you should have every right to be able to do that role and I suppose for the traffic commissioners, it'd be good to have a British Asian on the other side of the other counter and not in front of them, because I'm sure they do get quite a lot. But for me, it's a career path that I've been on, and I'm gonna go on, hey, it may not happen.
25:36
I mean, I know traffic commissioners, sometimes you've got to carry them out in a coffin, because they just don't want to leave, they like it that much and so I've got plenty of time at the moment. It's gonna be a long road, I know that. But I'm still young and I'm still able, so at the moment I can move about so I can carry on doing what I'm doing. When I get obviously a little bit older, I may then have to think to slow down and now's the right time. But I think for me it's about trying to come in with a different angle. I've seen it all. I've seen everything there is. I've worked in the operations. I've looked at the side of legislation. I've worked very closely with barristers. I've worked closely with lawyers. I've worked very closely with normal human beings, staff drivers, operational people, transport managers. So I absolutely know what good looks like and I think sometimes when I've just sat in public inquiries as an observer, I've looked at some of the questions being asked and thinking to myself, ooh, I'd come in at a different angle because I know exactly what I'd be looking for here. So it's the wish list, if that's what we want to call it. But it's something that I'm very, very passionate about, very enthusiastic about and hey, if I could do it, I could say, look Mum, top of the world. I made it.
Hattie Hlad - 26:45
As expected, Pip, that was really informative. Thank you so much for joining us here today.
Pip Bains -26:50
And thank you very much for having me.
Hattie Hlad -26:52
We've covered off some big topics today with Brexit, the pandemic, legislation, diversity. Gosh, you our listeners might need to lie down! No doubt we will explore more into these subjects in future episodes. Thanks, Pip, you've certainly left us with plenty to think about. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Driven by Excellence. We hope you enjoyed listening and if you did, please don't forget to click that follow button, leave us a review or share this episode with a colleague. For more information and to keep up to date with industry news, head to our website - pdtfleettrainingsolutions.co.uk.