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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa:
Hi. I'm Lysa TerKeurst. This is Joel Muddamalle, and Jim Cress, theologian, therapist. I'm just the average person in need of both.
Jim: Of both.
Lysa:
How do you like that?
Joel:
That's good.
Lysa:
Welcome to Therapy and Theology. Today's topic is very fascinating. I think often, very misunderstood. So we're talking today about narcissism. When I used to hear this topic of narcissism before I started really studying it on my own and understanding it from both a theological and a therapeutic standpoint, I thought, "Wow, if there's a narcissistic problem, then that really equates to a problem with pride." So that's what I thought for a very long time. When in essence, the presentation may be pride, but that is not really what's at the core of narcissism.
What's at the core of narcissism is shame. That to me was very, very eye-opening. So just so you have a basic definition of what narcissism is, Jim, I'm going to give my stab at the definition.
Jim:
Yes, please.
Lysa:
But I'm assuming since you're picking up your iPad, you have a very official definition of narcissism.
Jim:
Or unofficial.
Lysa:
Or unofficial, here we go. So just to lay the groundwork right from the beginning of our conversation, we've established that the root of narcissism is not pride. The presentation may be pride, but the root is shame. So what's a good definition, Jim, for narcissism?
Jim:
Well, there's going to be an over, kind of an over, overinflated sense of importance. So coming out of that shame, with shame it’s I'm bad if you saw me, if you knew me. I would even add, I'm empty inside. S-H-A-M-E, I say shame is self-hatred at my expense. Shame. So I really don't love myself as much as it might appear; I hate myself. So there's a grandiosity and this emptiness that is inside that goes back clear to childhood.
When we have talked, and we'll talk on this podcast about the lack of healthy mirroring. The only mirror I have is really to hold my mirror up to myself and try to define myself by myself in myself to fill that emptiness when the problem is there's a hole in my bucket. I can fill with other people. We use the words we'll get into about people who are empaths or echoes, the original narcissist story or someone who is a supply to that person, like Dracula needing blood. The problem is there's not enough supply. Emptiness, I have to keep filling up, filling up, filling up. So it's an endless loop for a person like that.
Lysa:
It really is. I think one of the best ways to define narcissism is someone who will charm you close, but then emotionally just really almost like you think about a vampire, sucking the life out of someone. It is emotionally sucking the life out of whoever they pull close. So it's their charm that will pull you in. Whatever grandiose nature that they're presenting you, when you get charmed into that, it seems like the most thrilling existence that is around.
Jim:
It'll feel like the narcissist, which is classic, is actually filling you up. They're very seductive and can be warm. It feels like, well, you're making this about me. I get drawn in kind of like the spider in the web, right? But when I get in, it was never about me. It will always be about the narcissist. But early on, it feels like you're filling me up. Not true. Feels like it, not true.
Lysa:
Yeah. I was reading something recently. The narcissist needs both a stage and an audience. The supply or the person that's charmed into that relationship, they become the one that the narcissist walks on at the same time, needs the admiration to a very extreme degree. So I need you to let me walk on you. I need you to clap for me. I need you to tell me how great I am constantly. If you criticize me—
Jim:
Bad news.
Lysa:
That is tapping into something I cannot handle. So as quick as he charms you in, he can just be that, just that quick to shut you out. So there's a range though of narcissism. I think it's important when you're defining narcissism to really talk about this range. Also I think it's really important at the very beginning here that we say, number one, we're not diagnosing anyone in your life with narcissism.
Lysa:
Actually it is a diagnosis that needs to happen with a professional. So please don't take what we're saying today and say, "Oh, I'm going to identify all the narcissists in my life." Right?
Jim:
Not good.
Lysa:
Also don't take this information and turn it inward and try to self-diagnose. Although that wouldn't typically be the response of a narcissist. So if you are trying to self-diagnose right now and wondering if you have the problem, chances are—
Jim:
You're not.
Lysa:
You're probably not.
Jim:
The word I used there, I love what you've done with that is the weaponizing. People do that in therapy all the time. Lord knows they do it in theology.
Joel:
Absolutely.
Jim:
They get a little learning, get a little something, here's the diagnosis. Get on the internet and read blogs and they come out and become this “closet” or this “arm chair therapist” in their diagnosis. You're a narcissist. There's not a person I've ever met, and I don't believe since Genesis 3 that ever existed, they didn't have a little narcissism in them. That's not narcissistic personality disorder. But there is a sense that I like who I am. In this selfie generation, we've even seen in this, in the last decade or two where song lyrics became far more. If you look narcissistic about me, less about other people and then holding up, getting this selfie. So our whole culture understands experientially, some narcissism, not narcissistic personality disorder or way over to sociopathy being a sociopath. That's different.
Lysa:
Right. This really is an issue of mental health. It's not just personalities, this is an issue of mental health. Just because you take a selfie doesn't make you a narcissist.
Jim:
That's right.
Lysa:
I just want to clear that up too.
Jim:
Please.
Lysa:
Okay, so let's talk about this scale. Joel's like, "Whew."
Jim:
Because he takes a lot of selfies.
Joel:
No. I'm just thinking like recently, the new iPhone, literally they have a slow-mo selfie. It's not just good enough to take a selfie. We had to do it in slow motion.
Jim:
I think it has three cameras on it too, doesn't it?
Joel:
It for sure does. I may or may not have it.
Jim:
That's what I hear, so it's like okay. Anyhow, back to the podcast.
Lysa:
That's okay, Joel. Yes. All right, so here we go. The range can be all the way from selfishness, which we can all demonstrate selfishness, to narcissistic tendencies where maybe you have an unusual need for admiration a lot. Another classic thing with narcissistic tendencies is while you need people to admire you a lot, you yourself have very little empathy toward other people. Again, just because you may be a person who struggles with empathy, does not mean you have narcissistic tendencies. I'm just saying the way it presents, narcissistic tendencies all the way then to the narcissistic personality disorder, that's taking that one step further in this continuum. Then all the way to the extreme end of the spectrum with no conscience, no empathy, and that would be sociopathic.
Jim:
Or psychopathic, either one. Yeah.
Lysa:
So there's quite a range here and so just because—
Jim:
And very low percent, probably about 1% truly in culture could be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. I know all things are possible in Christ, in God. But NPD, narcissistic personality disorder, very little hope or research or evidence that that person fundamentally changes with that. So it's a very low amount of people have it, and there are things that we can get to later about what do you do if you are a narcissist, about how you learned to cope, let alone the power of what God can do. There is still a God in this factor.
Joel:
Yes, yes.
Lysa:
That's right. I also don't want to pick on people who may struggle with at times being selfish because you know, that's a presentation of a continued process of you'd probably say sanctification.
Joel:
Yes, progressive sanctification.
Lysa:
Or maturity or whatever. Different people have different ways that they present their issues. We have all issues. But I think most of us at times can be selfish or self-focused, or not as empathetic toward other people, or in need of encouragement to the degree that it almost becomes admiring.
Lysa:
So let's just say that there's going to be information for all of us in here. Not to try to diagnose ourselves with this, but to recognize what it is. So today we're talking about what narcissism is. In our next Therapy and Theology recording, we are going to talk about what do we do if we are in relationship with a narcissist because there is information there that I think will be very helpful.
But today, let's focus on first what it is. We've covered that. Now where does it come from? I found this really interesting, when talking about a narcissistic wounding, which anyone who's struggling with narcissistic tendencies, certainly those with a narcissistic personality disorder, there has been a narcissistic wound or wounding that's happened. In one of the pieces of research I was reading, they called it the emptiness wound. I thought that was pretty fascinating. I also was looking up what does it take to raise an emotionally healthy the child into becoming an emotionally healthy adult. I found it pretty fascinating.
There was two things that emerged most consistently in the research that I was doing. One is this term called mirroring. I haven't really heard that talked about much, at least not in my circles; Jim, you probably have. But the second besides mirroring that we need to be doing if we want to raise emotionally healthy children is a consistent presence or object consistency is what some people call it.
So I want to ask you, Jim, about this mirroring principle. So the best that I could understand it is when a child falls down and skins their knee, instead of saying to them, "Don't be so emotional." Right? You would then go up to them and mirror back to them like, "Oh, of course you're sad. Oh sweetie, you fell and skinned your knee. Are you okay?" So explain to me maybe a few other examples of that mirroring so that parents can really understand what we're talking about.
Jim:
Well, in these days we have, which is a little bit more advanced, not that much, of what we call mirror neurons that in us, inside us, is I literally have mirror neurons that can mirror. If you're sad, I can be sad. Literally and we can, without even being verbal, we can feel literally with these mirror neurons, what each other are actually feeling. There's a connection adult-to-adult. So the babies, you've said, you and I both have children. We have grandchildren. You have children, grandkids will come, trust me. But the idea of the scraped knee versus, "Well, if you were not being so careful or romping around, you wouldn't have done it."
Joel:
Yeah, that's my response. I'll just confess right now.
Jim:
See, and we're going to get Joel fixed one of these days.
Joel:
Thank you. Need some help.
Jim:
It's the mirroring and a lot of this, it was never taught. So to learn to sit down and say, "Oh, I'm sorry, sweetie, you scraped your knee, let me get some medicine and put on there." Or to console them and to hug them. It's just, may I say it this way, it's acknowledging the wound, whether that's an emotional wound or a physical wound to say, "I see you. I acknowledge," eye contact is very important.
Jim:
Lysa and Joel, there's an interesting experiment that was done a number of years ago. It's out there on the internet on YouTube. You can watch the still face baby experiment. All it is, there's a doctor involved, and a mother, and an infant. The mother is there. On purpose, it's kind of hard to watch a little bit. The mother begins to be there in the baby's face and then she just simply turns her face away, and then completely moves away. The baby, the mirroring is gone. The baby overtly tries to say, mirror me, gets angry, cries, screeches, acts like it doesn't care, just to turn away. So won't steal all the thunder that
The baby's saying, "You're not going to mirror, I'll scream, do something to get you to mirror me back." Then the mother toward the end begins to mirror back and the baby goes from incredible emotional disregulation to being emotionally regulated, safe and secure. We've talked a lot about later years in rebuilding trust. Trust is built over time plus provable experience. When you talk about the mirroring, and then the consistency that's there, that's an original template of how we're wired that mom and dad would be there to be there, and mirror, and be present, and have empathy, which narcissists typically don't have, have empathy. But to do that, not perfectly, but consistently.
Joel:
Yeah. So I'm curious now, Jim. So this is maybe just a quick therapy session for Joel because with my boys, I've already said, "Hey, my tendency will be to just kind of be all right. You're good. Let's move on." That seems like there's a tension there.
Jim:
There is I think, yeah.
Joel:
How do we know what an adequate amount of mirroring is before like we say, "Okay, I think we're good"?
Jim:
I think my answer quite frankly is going to be quite profound and that is I don't know. What I want to do is have both. I want to be able to mirror and know as I see it, there's a risk that I will either not mirror at all, just get up, rub some dirt in it and move on. I know that that mentality, to not mirror at all or to mirror and almost like mirror, mirror, mirror on the wall and create a little narcissist which is in the narcissist research that you overpraise, overpraise, over nurture. Doesn't mean everybody turns into a narcissist. So I think what you've said even earlier, to mirror and the other end that you used is to move on. Mirror it, and then to move on. You've already got the parameters set. So mirror some and then move on and say, "Let's go over here and redirect."
Joel:
Yeah, that's so good.
Lysa:
I think, Joel, you can think of it like giving your child enough empathy to let them like take a sip of water. That sip of water is really good. Maybe they even need a cup of water. But they don't need a pool because in a pool, if you're not careful, you can drown. It's the same water. Right?
Jim:
That's good.
Joel:
Yeah.
Lysa:
What we're ultimately trying to show our children or exemplify for our children is empathy. Because remember, that's what a narcissist is lacking. They're lacking empathy. So they weren't properly mirrored as a child. The other component that's very typical for a narcissist is abandonment.
They fear being abandoned so much. We'll think about the other thing, consistent presence. That's what we're trying to give to our children is an appropriate amount of empathy to show them how to be empathetic, and then also consistent presence, showing them you don't have to live in fear of being abandoned. Now, some children will have separation issues. That's not what we're talking about.
Jim:
That's right.
Lysa:
But we're saying a consistent presence. I leave, I return. I tell you this, and I deliver this. That consistency is really important. So when someone is now in their adult years and they're struggling with narcissism, we've talked about that a narcissist always has to have a supply. What that supply is, is tell me who I am, and that it's good, and great, and amazing. Tell me who I am and tell me that it's good and great, and amazing.
Jim:
Wash, rinse, and repeat. It's not just one time. That'll last you for a while. Continually, continually. Yeah.
Lysa:
I found some research that when that narcissistic wound, or we called it the emptiness wound, when it's triggered, the narcissist will be desperate to find someone to give them an immediate supply of admiration. So that's kind of interesting. It also says that they will very quickly be enraged or act childlike. Jim, I think you said at one point to me in some of our counseling that we will often act out at the very age where we were once wounded.
Jim:
Developmentally stuck. If you look at most narcissists, that you will see, that I've ever seen — I have a sign in my office that says, "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?" They will feel very young. I think it is because developmentally, they are very young at the moment.
Lysa:
Yeah. Well, and I think most of us though, I mean I don't think you have to be a narcissist to do this.
Jim:
No, that's right.
Lysa:
I mean, I can act quite childlike.
Joel:
I know I can.
Lysa:
If I get triggered, and I mean I can pout, I can slam a door. I can talk at an elevated pitch. I found that so fascinating that we'll often revert back to some age or stage of life where we experienced a pretty significant hurt, or pain, or trauma, or wounding, or whatever. So our reaction will often be more childlike. But in the narcissist sense, they become enraged, depressed, childlike. Then they will often turn to medication or alcohol because the wounding is so painful. The shame runs so deep. So while they may project out a lot of pride, what they're experiencing inside is a lot of emptiness and a lot of shame of not having an identity of their own.
Jim:
Lysa, with that, what we've talked about this supply. Remember, we all know this, with addiction, alcohol, drugs, whatever it may be, sex addiction, gambling. We could go right down the line, a financial addiction, financial disorder, we call it, tons of compulsive spending. I am able as a narcissist in that moment to guarantee my supply will never run out because I guarantee you, I can get enough alcohol and more. I'll get enough drugs and more. So it is that way to numb it. It's still the same narcissistic wound. There's the hole in that person's soul. But the one addiction comes in so powerfully, it's not dependent on another person.
Lysa:
Again, not every addict, an addict is a narcissist.
Jim:
That is true.
Lysa:
But we're just talking about what they do if they get triggered.
Jim:
That's right.
Lysa:
Joel, what does this make you think of from a theological standpoint?
Joel:
Oh my gosh. I mean, there's so much. I don't know if we're going to have enough time right
now. One of the big things that as the both of you are talking about mirroring and presence, I wasn't even prepared for this, but overwhelmed with the reality that my goodness, this is exactly what God has done for us in His Son Jesus. Because the language of God throughout the Old Testament and New Testament is Papa. It's Father. He's a good Father who loves His children. While as a result of the fall, what God does is He sends His own Son. This is the theological term called the hypostatic union, that God, that Jesus, the God-man was 100% God and 100% man. As He comes into humanity, in a sense there, is a mirroring that's taking place. This is how it's possible for the writer of Hebrews to comment on Jesus saying that He was an empathetic high priest.
He was tempted in all the same ways. He experienced all the pain and tragedy, yet was faithful to His Father. So in one sense, you have Jesus who mirrored perfectly. He even took the sin that the debt that we were supposed to take on a cross upon Himself. But then here's the other interesting thing—
Jim:
Talk about mirroring.
Joel:
Talk about mirroring.
Jim:
My goodness.
Joel:
Here's the other interesting thing: Lysa, you talked about presence, that there has to be a sense of presence. Well, isn't it so interesting that Jesus says, "It's important for me to leave?" So what? The spirit of God can come. The spirit of God now in the Old Testament, just a wild, right? But for moments and periods of time in the New Testament, we know Acts chapter two that the spirit indwells inside of us because we are the temple of God. So where the temple of God is, the presence of God is there. So now we have the presence of God Himself inside of us.
Lysa:
I think one thing that's kind of interesting from a spiritual standpoint for me is the very thing that a narcissist thinks will fill them, the admiration, the praise, the presence of people and all of that. That that very thing is actually what will, if misplaced, will make them feel most empty because praise is not satisfying the way that if I were to help you, Jim, or give something to you, if I praise you, that is like, "Okay, that's great."
But if you were then to help me or do something for me and you become less and make someone else more, that's actually what's more satisfying. That's exactly what Jesus modeled.
Joel:
Yes.
Lysa:
The people wanted to put Jesus on a stage with a spotlight, and wanted Him to be this triumphant person. Jesus because of what we needed, we needed deliverance but not just temporary deliverance.
We needed a reigning King but not just a temporary reigning king. We needed a Savior but not just a temporary, situational savior. So Jesus came and flipped all of that.
Jim:
Love that.
Joel:
Yes.
Lysa:
He's like, "If you want to become great, then you become less." If you want to be an amazing leader, then wash their feet. If you want to be the ultimate friend, you will lay down sometimes your needs for the needs of others. And so Jesus was telling us, this is how you go from being empty to full. It's being full of love and compassion for other people because you have God's love and compassion that's filled you up inside. I think what happens is that all gets turned the other way. The ultimate narcissist is Satan, right?
Joel:
Yes. Absolutely. Lucifer.
Lysa:
I mean the ultimate narcissist is the enemy of our soul that's constantly whispering to us, "If you want to feel significant, you need people to praise you. If you want to really make something of yourselves, then you need to be in the spotlight." Jesus is like, "No. That's the very thing that will empty you out even more. Do what I modeled, and that is actually what will fill you up."
Joel:
It's really interesting and Scripture because that if some of the Bible scholars and researchers now are probably listening going, "Huh, let me do a quick word search in the Bible and see if I can find narcissism in the Bible." Right? You may come up with, which is what I came up with while the word "narcissism," even the Greek word "narceo," right? The actual verb is actually not used in the Bible.
But we talked earlier about descriptive and prescriptive. The word that is used in a synonym for narcissism is conceit and deception. Don't have vain conceit and do not be self-deceived. I was studying a little bit on this. The idea of vain conceit. This is Galatians 6:3, "If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." That's a sense of conceit.
Jim:
All narcissists are self-deceived in the secular research, that ties right into the gospel Word of God. Yeah.
Joel:
This is amazing to me. Right? So now as I got into this theological where I'm like, "Okay, what is this idea of deception and conceit?" It's actually having wisdom in your own eyes. So now, I go to Proverbs. I just want to read some verses here. Proverbs 26:5, "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." Verse 12, "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There's more hope for a fool than for him." 16, "The sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who can answer sensibly." Then Proverbs 28:11, "A rich man is wise in his own eyes, but a poor man who has understanding will find him out." So there with the narcissist is this deception of self. That when they look and they reflect and they see themselves and they're like, "Oh, I've got total wisdom."
Ultimately going back to Jesus, the object that we revere will absolutely end up being what we reflect. So the antithesis of narcissism is Jesus. Rather Jesus, rather than being self-focused, he's other-focused. I love Hebrews 1:3. "He's the radiance of the glory of God. The exact imprint we've been talking about, the likeness and image. Jesus is the exact imprint of God's nature. He upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins. He sat down at the right hand of majesty on high." This is who Jesus was. This is who Jesus is. This is how He continually just advocates for us.
Lysa:
Yeah. I think it is important to say because sometimes I'll hear people talk about different things like why did God make someone that way? So I think it's important to remember this narcissistic tendency, narcissistic personality disorder. It comes from a wounding, not from the making. When we enter into this world that is sin-soaked, we're all going to experience wounds. But with the narcissist, it is a wounding that has completely emptied them out of any kind of identity.
From a psychological standpoint, Jim, we've talked before that that small percentage that actually does have the diagnostic—
Jim:
Criteria met for NPD.
Lysa:
Criteria met narcissistic personality disorder, from a psychological standpoint, they will say that is a, an illness, a mental illness they will deal with the rest of their life. You've said before, you can teach them coping skills depending on their willingness.
Jim:
Yeah, they have many talents. Yeah.
Lysa:
But what I know is that the Savior of the world, if the problem is being empty and a lack of identity, the truest way to be filled up and have a brand-new identity is in Christ. I'm not say pray enough and you'll get healed.
Jim:
No, I know you better than that.
Lysa:
What I am saying is with Jesus, there is always hope. I think that's a good place to end today. So what a fascinating topic. Right? Again, we're not talking about this because we want you to now go out and diagnose yourself or other people, but I think just creating an awareness that this is real. It is something that the more we educate ourself about different terms that we hear, we won't throw it around inappropriately.
Jim:
That's right.
Lysa:
We will remember if there's someone in our life that is struggling with an enormous sense of what you may have previously called pride. That's really a front for some deep, deep, deep shame and emptiness that they feel inside. So maybe that can help us look at people previously who you thought they don't even deserve compassion and have more compassion for them. In our next Therapy and Theology episode, we are going to talk about what do you do when you have someone in your life that is demonstrating some of what we've talked about today. I think it'll be very, very important. Thanks so much for joining us.