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Welcome to "This is Health, Wealth, and the Pursuit of Happiness" your source for insightful discussions with economist and author, Dr. Murray Sabrin. Join us as we challenge convention, expand minds, and pursue truth.
Murray Sabrin (00:01.794)
Welcome to Health, Wealth, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I'm Murray Sabrin, B A, A, Ph D. There's no BS in my background, never has been and never will be. On this podcast, we explore the ideas, people, and principles that shape healthier lives, greater prosperity, and human flourishing. In each episode, we'll challenge conventional wisdom on healthcare, economics, politics, and personal freedom so you can think independently, make better decisions, and pursue your happiness.
Thank you for joining us today, August 20th, 2026. And before I introduce my guest, I want to wish Dr. Ron Paul a happy birthday. Today is his 91st birthday. He's 90 years young today. And for those of you who are familiar with his work, you can find out more about him at the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity. And also he hosts with Daniel McAdams the Daily Liberty Report. I urge you to
Go there and find out what Dr. Paul and Dan McDaniel McAdams are talking about regarding our foreign policy and other events that are occurring in the United States. So it's with great pleasure I have our guest today, Jonathan, not Jonathan, Patrick Newman. Jonathan Newman is the other Newman that's at the Mises Institute, but pat Dr. Patrick Newman is the Murray Rothbard Research Fellow at the Mises Institute and assistant professor of economics at the University of Tampa. His research
Interests include macroeconomics, monetary policy, economic history, and cronyism. And today we're going to talk about two of his books that have been published on cronyism. The first one is cronyism.
From eight sixteen seven to eighteen forty-nine, Liberty versus Power in America. And his second book, Hot Off the Presses, is Cronyism: The Rise of the Corporate State, 1849 to 1929. And there'll be a third volume coming up, which we'll talk about during our during our conversation. And Patrick also is the co-author of a wonderful book. I've almost finished reading it with Dr. Joseph Salerno.
Murray Sabrin (02:13.877)
The making of an Austrian economist, Murray Ann Rothbard, who was a member of my dissertation committee when I was a PhD student at Rutgers back in the 1970s. And to this year is the hundredth anniversary of the birth of Murray Rothbard. And if you go to my Substack, Murray Sabrin.substack dot com, you can find the link to get a free copy of his wonderful monograph, The Case for a Hundred Percent Gold Dollar.
So we'll maybe we'll get into that with Patrick about the current monetary situation. So Patrick, welcome to Health, Wealth and Pursuit of Happiness.
Patrick (02:50.382)
Thanks so much for having me on. I'm really excited to be be on the podcast.
Murray Sabrin (02:54.091)
Well let's go get right into it. let's get into your first the first book on cronyism. What are some of the major points that the book discusses that this that informs us about how cronyism evolved in America in the early part of the colonial period and the early part of the republic?
Patrick (03:13.058)
Yeah, so the the the cronyism the the the cronyism series is about the history of special interest policies in the United States, right? So policies that benefit various special interests such as business groups, unions and so on at the public's expense. So the first period the the first a the the first book
Is on the it's it's it's it's about early American cr history, right? So cronyism from Jamestown up through, you know, before the Civil War. And the big theme, or you could say the the the the the theory used is the theory of of of liberty versus power. So this comes from Murray Rothbard, who viewed history as the struggle between the forces or groups of people favoring liberty.
Free markets. They oppose cronyism. They oppose special interests. And they were in opposition to the forces of power. So these are groups that favor increased government intervention and the crony rewards that come with it. And the the important thing to emphasize about this period is that there were several mass movement groups of Americans, such as the Anti Federalists.
before the US Constitution was was created, the Jeffersonian Republicans, and the Jacksonian Democrats, who of course were not perfect, you know, all these groups were not perfect, but they were in they were in opposition to cronyism. And they espoused various fr pro free market
Theories of economic growth and and and and freedom and so on. And you know, they did try to reduce cronyism and they they were in opposition to groups that were in favor of greater government power, greater cronyism. So these are the Federalists led by, say, Alexander Hamilton. Then you have the Whigs led by Henry Clay and Daniel Webster, John Quincy Adams, and the unfortunate reality is that, well, if the the forces of liberty succeeded.
Patrick (05:17.338)
I wouldn't have had to write volume two, right? Or volume three. because once they got in in in control of the government, they did reduce the size of government and cronyism in certain ways, but then very quickly they kind of got corrupted by power. They said, Well, we can now use government favoritism to benefit ourselves, to stay in elected office, and so on. So hopefully that sounds familiar, or at least.
It might unfortunately sound familiar to various people, but that's sort of the main kind of overview of the first book.
Murray Sabrin (05:55.212)
Wha what are some of the examples of egregious cronyism in America? let's start with with the with the constitution period, 1789 to up to the Civil War. What were some of the things that the federal government did that really hurt the economy, hurt the American people's constitutional rights, and hurt the d economic development of the country?
Patrick (06:19.49)
Yeah, so really when it when you think about some of the the prime examples of cronyism in this period, there's there's two that come to mind and they're two that we're still dealing with today, which is central banking. You had the first and second banks of the United States, our nation's first central banks. And these institutions they benefited bankers, they benefited political insiders who bought stock, they were very corrupt, they bribed politicians.
they made loans to favored businesses and to banks. Led to these very harmful periods of of of inflationary booms and recessions, right? So you had these the central banking, right? And then the other one is protective tariffs. So you had various protective tariffs. The tariff of abominations is is probably the most notorious one, but
Basically, Congress was trying to stimulate domestic industry or certain aspects of domestic industry by raising the price of of of of foreign products. And this hurt domestic consumers. This hurt industries that were focused on the export market. This hurt businesses that bought inputs from other countries. So really, central banking and protective tariffs, they've those have been in the United States
arsenal of crony policies since the beginning and we're still with them today.
Murray Sabrin (07:41.26)
Now, during this period, the federal government was relatively small in size, relatively small relative to the s to the size of the economy. So there was no income tax at the time. So how did the government get revenue to do whatever they were doing at the time? Since there was no big welfare state, we didn't have a big army at a big military industrial complex. So can you give us some idea of what life was like in the early part of the nineteenth century, which created all these tensions and cronyism?
Patrick (08:10.956)
Yeah, so the the protective tariff was a or or tariffs were just the main way that the the federal government raised money. They also raised money by selling land, which excuse me, there was some cronyism related to land sales because the federal government charged artificially high prices. The land didn't just naturally go to whoever homesteaded it, whoever mixed their labor with it, but you often had to pay the federal government for their cut, so to speak.
in in return for them protecting you at the frontier, which they really didn't do. So you had l you had you had tariffs, you had land sales, and that did read that did constrain spending in terms of cronyism related to spending, which is why for a long period of time, a federal system of internal improvements, like various transp a network of transportation outlets, you know, turnpikes, canals, and then railroads.
It took a long time for that to get off the ground, really, the the Civil War. so you didn't have so much, let's say, massive amounts of spending cronyism, but you did have cronyism related to the special privileges the federal and state governments granted to businesses, regulatory barriers, and tariffs and so on. So it was a different world.
But a lot of the strategies pursued by lob you know, by special interests lobbying for favors and even the the the particular types of favors that they were pursuing, such as central banking tariffs and so on, th those are still around in in twenty twenty six, right?
Murray Sabrin (09:51.406)
Yeah. Because there are there are people who claim, assert that the civil war was fought over the issue of slavery. Then there are others whose work you probably are familiar with who say no, it was the tariff that was the primary cause of the Civil War. What does your research indicate as to what were the events that led to the Civil War?
Patrick (10:17.252)
So I think this is a it's it's it's a a controversial subject or something that's that's discussed a lot and it's important to separate why the South seceded, right, versus why the we had a a a civil war. And I talk about this at the beginning of the book and
By the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties, there was no doubt that the controversy surrounding the expansion of slavery into the Western territories had really reached a fever pitch. So I have to very specific with how I'm describing this. It was the controversy was specifically over the expansion of slavery.
into the western territories, not over slavery in the in the south, but well basically will there be more slave states out west this is something that the Jacksonian Democrat coalition had tried to sort of not bring up in the 1830s and 1840s but it be you know they they couldn't contain the issue any any any longer after the the the Mexican War. so
you had the rise of the Republican Party, which was originally a party that was taken from a bunch of disaffected or let's say upset Whigs and Democrats over how the slavery issue was dominating politics. And they said, well, we want to unify around this one issue, stop the expansion of slavery in the Western territories. That was in 1854. However
The you could say the pro-American system faction kind of won out in the Republican Party. Now, the American system was pro central banking, pro-protective tariffs, pro internal improvements. So more or less kind of what Alexander Hamilton had been advocating, as well as the Whigs. And they were pushing for these various policies. and they certainly wanted to pass a protective tariff and and all and all this stuff.
Patrick (12:24.998)
so so they were becoming more influential. And by the time of the election of 1860, the Democratic Party had been totally ruptured by the the slavery issue. They ran two separate tickets, and that enabled basically Abraham Lincoln to to win. And he won with very, very few votes in the South. And he was actually seen as a moderate on the on the slavery question. but he was chosen by his party because he was a moderate.
And the issue is the South really didn't trust him. So there's no doubt that, at least I would argue, and I show it in the in the in the book, that these the initial southern states that seceded seceded because they were fearful that the Republicans would be able to weaken slavery in various indirect ways. So sort of a preemptive preemptive secession, if you will. But then Lincoln wasn't
Motivated to basically invade the South to stop slavery. That's something that only came later in the Civil War. He wanted to keep the Union together, right? And that was his main motivation. And so that really set in motion the the conflict of of the Civil War. Protective tariffs had actually already been passed and they were signed by by President James Buchanan before Lincoln, Lincoln came into office. So it's a
bit complicated. We could certainly talk about it more, but there are there it's it's it's a it's a it it it th the the the story is not as simplistic as it's often argued.
Murray Sabrin (14:02.333)
Interesting, interesting. just to go back a little bit, how much of this cronyism that we saw in the first half of the nineteenth century retard economic development? Because remember, this is a young republic in in the early part of the nineteenth century. They were just getting their feet wet economically, so to speak. So d did the did the cronyism really s hurt American economic development in the first half of the nineteenth century?
Patrick (14:29.412)
So you could make that argument, and and I I did do that, I did make that argument in the in the first and the second books, that when we look at how if the g power of government increased and cronyism increased, economic growth could be stunted. And more importantly, I think is that we look at the cause of the first industrial revolution, a true genuine industrial revolution, which really began not during the Civil War, as was often assumed, but before the
Civil War in the 1840s and especially the 1850s. And the prime cause of that industrial revolution, which I argue, especially in the second book, were was the it was an institutional revolution caused by the Jacksonian Democrats dismantling of the American system. Jacksonian Democrats, not perfect, right? They had their issues, but in terms of the most successful
You could say libertarian anti-crony movement in the United States history. It's it's them in terms of the political achievements that they were able to you know, what they what they were able to accomplish. They got rid of the s the the second bank of the United States and they instituted the independent treasury, separating the federal government from the banking system. They got rid of protective tariffs. We had a tariff for revenue.
And they prevented government subsidies, they paid down the debt, they had lots of deregulate deregulation at the state level for business formation, and all of this really brought about the the first industrial revolution, right? So it was the cronyism that was holding that industrial revolution back. And this is a story that I don't think a lot of people actually know, which is why I wanted to emphasize it at the beginning of the second book.
Murray Sabrin (16:18.785)
Interesting. So what happened during the Civil War in terms of cronyism? Because we know we got greenbacks, paper money that the government printed. we we got the income the first income tax, I believe, in the US history, and we got violation of civil liberties during the Lincoln administration. So how did that how did those events affect the cronyism not only th during the Civil War, but going forward?
Patrick (16:48.45)
Yeah so the the the the Lincoln administration was really the first administration full stop, unrestricted, that could bring about a an American system or really a neo American system at that point. So a some sort of central banking system, protective tariffs, and a system of internal improvements. The Lincoln administration, they more or less got rid of the independent treasury, it became defunct, they created a quasi central banking system.
the national banking system. They instituted, they continued to raise protective tariffs, right? So you had a huge tariff wall that lasted for many decades. And most egregious, I would say, was the amount of the massive amount of land and monetary subsidies that they gave to really you could say rapacious transcontinental railroad builders who really built the public. And
Murray Sabrin (17:45.453)
Mm.
Patrick (17:48.079)
A lot of people say, the Civil War, all this government intervention, these protective tariffs, these railroad subsidies, that caused the Industrial Revolution or that increased economic growth. It's actually false. in the era before the Civil War, when there we didn't have protective tariffs, manufacturing as a share of commodity output actually increased. And during the Civil War, and and then a little bit after, when we saw huge protective tariffs.
it it it stagnated. It didn't really increase. And that was partially because tariffs raised the cost of inputs. but you also saw the federal government it raise taxes enormously in order to fund the the the the war effort, right? So the the the cronyism pursued by the Lincoln administration in the Civil War, it did not make America great. It made America poor.
It stunted the the the the growth trajectory of the US economy and it kind of set the stage for a lot of future cronyism that I would argue also hurt the US economy and the American people.
Murray Sabrin (18:57.235)
And we must not forget that over 800,000 Americans died during the Civil War. So that had to have a huge impact on future economic development because who knows how many inventors, scientists perished, the young these young men who could have been greater great contributors to the economy. And so that's that's a that's the opportunity cost to a horrific opportunity cost of war. And that's a topic for another day, I guess. But after the Civil War,
the there give us give us some idea of w how the economy developed and the cronyism that took place from the end of the civil war, eighteen sixty five, until the beginning of the twentieth century.
Patrick (19:38.083)
Yeah, so the the the the cr the cronyism that really developed as you saw the the predecessor of what was known as the progressive era or what I would call the corporatist era, but that was in the twentiet twentieth century. so
After the Civil War, you started to see the rise of big business. Railroads were really the nation's first big business. These massive companies operated across state lines. They had many shareholders. they were, you know, they were influential in government. manufacturing companies didn't really embrace the corporation until the eighteen nineties or the the corporate form of organization, though you you you saw trusts.
which were a different type of or you know organization, business organization, or a method of of business organization. And so you saw these large businesses, these railroad, you know, railroad developed, standard oil, huge ra oil company developed, lots of large steel companies start to develop and so on. And many of them were led by innovative and pioneering entrepreneurs, but
We have to look at the record honestly, and there's no doubt that they were all interested in obtaining some sort of cartel or monopoly. Because who wouldn't want to be that? I'd love to be the only professor in the world. I could charge whatever I wanted, right? And work as few hours as I wanted. And so you saw all these businesses try to form cartels, so these groups of sellers trying to restrict supply and raise price, or these single business would try to be a monopoly. They're the only seller.
So then they could restrict supply and raise price. The problem was that you saw new forms of competition. You the cartels would break from internal pressure and new businesses would enter in the particular market and so on, and it would actually frustrate the attempts of the cartelists or the monopolists. So we have a common misconception that, well, before the federal government got involved with antitrust and things like that, the American economy was
Patrick (21:45.825)
characterized by monopolies and so on, the reality is actually quite different. It was characterized by dynamic competition and people were frustrated that they couldn't achieve cartels and monopolies. The monopolies that did exist were caused by government interventions, such as the protective tariff, as the owner of the the sugar trust you know he he famously proclaimed he said the the mother of all trusts
is the pr is is the protective tariff basically, right? So that's kind of the environment in the late nineteenth century that I think it's important to properly understand.
Murray Sabrin (22:25.781)
Let's speed it up and get to what many people consider the ultimate crony institution, and that is the Federal Reserve. Give us a little overview of the creation of the Federal Reserve and what it has accomplished or has not accomplished since it was passed by Woodrow Wilson. He signed the Federal Reserve Act in December nineteen thirteen.
Patrick (22:46.882)
Yeah, so the Federal Reserve, I would argue, is the prime example of regulatory capture, or when a special interest controls a regulatory commission that was ostensibly designed to regulate it. But Wall Street was actually at the forefront in advocating a central bank. And they ended up really getting what they wanted through the Federal Reserve Act and through the specific personnel appointed to run.
the the new central bank. Wall Street had two major aims. they wanted to protect their market share and bankers' balances, which are basically deposits that were owed to not to individuals, but to other banks. So they wanted a central bank to basically lend them money to make it more attractive for other banks to put their money in New York City banks. So then that money could be used to make loans on the stock market. And Wall Street also wanted
To make the dollar a world reserve currency. They were upset that their international their their their business in international finance was quite weak. So they wanted a central bank to basically make loans to promote American trade, to promote American investment in other countries, and so on. And that's exactly what they got with the Federal Reserve during World War One and in the roaring twenties. And
that just simply led to an unsustainable boom that basically blew up in the form of the Great Depression. And the set the Federal Reserve, as you put it, is really the most crony institution. I would argue it's the prime example of cronyism. And we could spend a whole podcast going through Federal Reserve cronyism in the in the the twentieth and twenty first centuries, but it's no doubt that the Federal Reserve has basically through much of its history has benefited Wall Street.
This is why often so many Fed chairs had some prior experience at a major New York financial institution.
Murray Sabrin (24:48.461)
Let's let's go to more recent history because a lot of people have been criticizing what's been going on in Washington from both sides of the aisle of cronyism. What are some of the examples of cronyism that have evolved over the past, let's say, ten, twenty, thirty years?
Patrick (25:05.412)
So I think there there's there's a lot of instances of cronyism in in the in the modern government and and one of the frustrating things is that there's just so much and the federal government's budget has just gotten so big it's sometimes even overwhelming to sort of to to look at it. So we can talk about
the the the the cent the the the central bank, right? The Federal Reserve and how they benefited Wall Street during the financial crisis and during COVID and even after, where the something known as the Greenspan put has basically been in effect since the the late eighties. And the greenspan put basically refers to the fact that if stock prices or the prices of various financial assets start to go down, the Federal Reserve has basically signaled
That they are going to inject money into the markets to prop up those financial assets and bet basically benefit the the stock market and large banks and other institutions that are engaged in financial transactions. Now, why is this crony? Well, one, it leads to a the business cycle because it's artificially lowering interest rates. And we saw this happen before the financial crisis with the housing boom.
But the other thing that we can't forget is that more money sloshing around in the economy drives up the demand for goods and services, and that increases prices, which causes inflation, right? And the American people don't like inflation. It's the hidden tax, it's the the thief in the night, so to speak, to quote William McChesney Martin Jr., who was chairman of the the Federal Reserve chairman of of the board of the excuse me's chairman of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.
And you know, this is something going on right now that we that we that we see, right? So the Federal Reserve is is widely seen as benefiting Wall Street and other financial institutions, even though it doesn't help the American people. And the American people have been suffering from high inflation for several years now.
Murray Sabrin (27:10.345)
I want you to put on your your forecasting hat because yesterday it was announced that the n federal government's debt reached forty trillion dollars, a number that most people can't wrap their head around. To put this in perspective for our audience, when Ronald Reagan was elected president and took office in January nineteen eighty one, the national debt was roughly one trillion dollars. So the debt has increased forty times and
People who love debt out there, there's no way they can argue that the US economy is better off for it, that we're not better off forty times because of all this debt. So what's your assessment of this debt and what this could lead to down the road if we if the federal government doesn't get its financial house in order?
Patrick (27:55.577)
Yeah, so the the d the the United States debt is the federal debt is on an unsustainable trajectory. we have we've been borrowing tremendous amounts ever since the financial crisis. I mean, we were doing it before, but really since the financial crisis in two thousand eight
and we lucked out in the twenty tens because interest rates were very low, partially I would argue largely because of demographic reasons and baby boomers saving more, getting ready for retirement. But now interest rates are on the rise. you you're starting you're starting to see a lot of baby boomers, they're retiring, or they've been retiring, they're drawing down on their nest eggs, and they're also spending more on healthcare and other things, and that's putting
greater strain on America's the biggest driver of the of of of the national debt, which is our entitlement programs, Social Security, Medicare, and so on. And the United States debt is expected to continue to to increase. It's expected to increase even faster than other countries that have similar issues with their entitlement programs. And this is going to put a severe strain on things because if
If if interest rates remain elevated, then interest payments as a share of government spending are going to balloon and they've already actually been ballooning. And this is going to make people worried about the the safety of the dollar and if is it truly, you know, a world reserve currency or can it be trusted or the safety of of treasuries. And you're starting to see we could get into this some maybe manipulation in the
in in in the treasury market because there's no doubt that the Trump administration is very concerned about lowering the interest payments on the national debt. This is why they want the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates. They're willing to look past you know, inflation, which is at three percent, four percent right now, depending on whatever metric the Federal Reserve wants to look at. And this is
Patrick (30:02.296)
This is a problem because if the federal government is gonna basically try to monetize the debt through the Federal Reserve, inflation's gonna be an even bigger issue. And so the people who are gonna benefit are basically gonna be people who have bond speculators, the people who are gonna lose is gonna be the American public.
Murray Sabrin (30:20.083)
So is there any way out of this conundrum that we have? Because from projections that I've seen recently is that the debt the national deficit, the federal deficit, the annual federal deficit will be over a trillion dollars, probably two trillion dollars a year for several years now, which means that we're gonna be close to fifty trillion dollars by the middle of the next decade, if not sooner. so if we have two trillion dollar deficits each year.
For the next five years. That's that takes us to fifty trillion dollars. And if even if we have a four percent annual interest rate on all the debt, we're talking two trillion dollars a year in interest cost. So where could where could the economy be if we have such enormous amount of money going for interest payments? And will that crowd out all the other federal government spending? Or will the federal government just keep on spending more and more and the Federal Reserve will be buying up more and more of this debt?
Patrick (31:17.732)
So I think the it's it's a great question and I think we we we we should be able to kind of tackle it by looking at w the major structural problems. And the issue is to solve the national debt problem, the United States has to actually tackle the entitlement crisis, which is the fact that these entitlement programs, especially social security, are on unsustainable trajectories, depending on what year it is or depending on what's happening in the economy, you'll see that social security is gonna run out and
you know, in the early twenty twenty thirties, right? And Medicare's not doing not doing much better. If we really want to sustainably reduce the national debt and the ballooning
cost of interest payments on that national debt. We have to tackle government spending. We have to decrease government spending and we have to reform in in in entitlements because the United States government has simply promised too much, especially to to seniors. And the unfortunate thing is that they were taxed people in the past and that's made them dependent on these government programs.
so it's a it's a it's a difficult it's a difficult subject, but it's something that has to be confronted. Because you're exactly right. If if we continue on this trajectory, then the federal government isn't gonna cut its spending you know, in any of these particular areas, if it's just gonna keep keep borrowing and keep spending more.
It's going to lead to a huge increase in the burden of government in h higher interest rates are going to crowd out private sector borrowing. And then you're going to see the Federal Reserve get involved to basically print money in lower interest rates, but then you're gonna have inflation. The only way that we can really solve our debt problem or make it more manageable without actually cutting government spending, and this is only really a temporary fix.
Patrick (33:11.038)
is through extremely higher than expected growth from artificial intelligence, which is what a lot of people, especially the Trump administration, are are advocating. And I think that while artificial intelligence is a boon for the economy, I don't think it'll be enough to deliver the utopian results that some people are hoping it will for Unit the United States deteriorating fiscal situation.
Murray Sabrin (33:38.22)
Let me ask you the last question before we go, because this has been fascinating. Having been a history major and having taught financial history in the United States, these two books, I wish they were available when I taught financial history, because they would have been perfect for the students. But I did use Murray Rothbard's collection of essays, the history of money and banking in the United States, which were just were great insights as to how our financial system developed. So let me ask you this. Given all the cronyism that's occurred, why do you think the the appeal
What's the appeal of democratic socialism f among young people?
Patrick (34:12.216)
So it that that's that's a great question 'cause I think the one of the important things of the tasks that say people such as ourselves have to do, economists have to do, is we have to convince people that a lot of the problems that they do experience in life is not the result of capitalism, but it's the result of cronyism, right?
And this is why I actually prefer to use the term cronyism as opposed to crony capitalism, because even by including the term capitalism, you're sort of indicting the the free market economy and it's confusing. And I think one word's always better than two. if if if if you can if you can simplify things. And we we need to teach people that, you know, the high cost of living that they face or the fact that they feel as though they're not getting ahead or they are
Murray Sabrin (34:41.474)
Huh.
Patrick (35:01.708)
not where their parents were in the past and so on or inflation that they see at the grocery store on Amazon and and so forth is not due to capitalism. It's not due to people overcharging or, you know, being greedy or exploiting. It's due to this network of special privileges that businesses and other special interest groups work really hard to to acquire from the government and also work really hard to cover up. So people don't know that it exists.
And so what you have is you have a a generation of of young people and and more that think that all the problems they face are due to capitalism. And well, wouldn't it be great if we could just have government run grocery stores or government provided healthcare or you know, twenty five dollar minimum wage in the country and and and so on. And these things sound great.
Right. But you actually have to analyze the economics of this, and and that's difficult. There's an old saying in politics, and it's if you're explaining, you're losing. Right. And that's that's the challenge we face. But it's really important, I think, to teach people that the problems that they face, it's not due to capitalism, it's due to cronyism. And cronyism exists under socialism too, right? It's not something unique to capitalism, right? There's there's there's crony socialism, let's say. Right. So it's it's really important to teach people that.
Capitalism is not at fault. And I think it's people's belief that it is at fault that leads to their embrace of democratic socialism.
Murray Sabrin (36:33.985)
That's wonderful. That's a that's a good way to end this conversation, Patrick. I really appreciate you taking the time from your busy schedule. And I I'm neglected neglected to mention that you are the editor of two wonderful volumes of by Murray Rothbard, The Conceived in Liberty, which is a multi-volume history of the American colonies and up until the creation of the republic, you were the editor of the last volume.
And you're also the editor of a collection of essays by Rothbard on the progressive era. I have two of those books right up back on my bookshelf here. And they're wonderful essays that describe the evolution of the US economy from the 1800s all the way up to the early part of the 20th century. So I want to thank you for doing that. And where can people get a hold of your three books that you authored, that one co-authored with Joe Salerno and the two volumes.
That you edited. Where can they where can they get those books?
Patrick (37:32.283)
So they can find those either at the bookstore or the Mises Institute, which is a a great organization. And and for the two books that recently just came out, you can get these beautiful premium edition paperback and hard hardback copies from the Mises Institute. and you can also get print on demand versions from Amazon. And both of the books that came out, the second cronies in volume and the book on Murray Rothbard.
there's also audiobooks for those, as well as online PDFs. So there's lots of resources and you can find them either on Amazon or at the Mises Institute's website website, Mises.org.
Murray Sabrin (38:13.175)
Great. Jonathan, it's been a pleasure having you. We're gonna have to have you back to discuss some more interesting developments as time goes on, because this debt situation is not going to be resolved anytime soon, because it seems that the coin of the realm, so to speak, in Washington D.C. is spend, elect, spend, and elect, and borrow f from the future. And there's a great quote from Thomas Jefferson that not balancing the budget is basically
And issuing debt is is basically stealing from future generations. So thank you for being with us. And just remind everybody, thank you for watching and listening to Health, Wealth, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I'm Murray Saber. And until next time, keep questioning conventional wisdom, keep pursuing truth, and keep striving for a healthier, freer, and more prosperous life. And please visit mafiusa.com and you can learn about the Mafia movement. Make Americans financially independent. That is
something that will make America great again in my opinion. So until next week, have a safe and healthy week.
Patrick (39:20.495)
Thanks for having me.