The Rest is History with Dr. Paula Hinton

Show Notes

Join Kosta and his guest: Dr. Paula Hinton, Professor at Tennessee Technological University and Historian.

In this episode: It’s no secret we love true crime. It’s one of the fastest growing genres of film, television and podcasts. What is it about listening to the gruesome details of how people were killed that we want to hear? They say those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it. In your opinion, as a historian and professor, do you believe we have enough of an understanding of history to not repeat it? As someone who knows what scares us, and has extensive knowledge of history in the United States, how much of what scares us is actually real?

Find out more about Dr. Paula Hinton and TN Tech:
https://www.tntech.edu/
https://www.tntech.edu/directory/cas/history/paula-hinton.php

Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is a product of Morgan Franklin Media and recorded in Cookeville, TN.

This episode of Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is made possible by our partners at Miss Sallie's Market.

Find out more about Miss Sallie's Market:
https://www.misssallies.com/

What is Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev?

Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev is a podcast about business, parenting and living life intentionally. We're here every week to bring you intentional conversations on making your own path to success, challenging the status quo, and finding all the ways we're better. Recorded in Cookeville, TN, Kosta joins guests from all walks of life to bring fresh perspective and start your week with purpose. We're better together.

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Dr. Paula Hinton: Because
otherwise, history then is just

a laundry list. And that's why
people hate history I'd find

because they're thinking of the
laundry list. They have to

memorize these dates, these
things happen. And that's not

history. I mean, it's part of
it. But that's like the skeleton

that you hang everything else
on.

Morgan Franklin: Welcome to
Better Together with Kosta

Yepifantsev, a podcast on
parenting business and living

life intentionally. We're here
every week to bring you

thoughtful conversation, making
your own path to success,

challenging the status quo, and
finding all the ways we're

better together. Here's your
host, Kosta Yepifantsev.

Kosta Yepifantsev: Hey, y'all,
it's Kosta. Today I'm here with

my guest, Dr. Paula Hinton,
historian and professor of

history at Tennessee
Technological University. Dr.

Hinton, as today's episode is a
bit different from our normal

episodes, would you start us off
with a bit of information about

how you became a historian? And
what a historian really is?

Dr. Paula Hinton: So I'll start
with the second part of your

question. First, a historian
gathers primary sources. So this

is diaries, letters, you know,
any kind of resource from the

time period, it can even be a
vase, it can be architecture,

whatever it is, that tells you
about that time period, and then

they, you know, research them,
interpret them, analyze them,

and then they put that together
into a narrative. And that's the

history then. So they might go
through 20 boxes of documents

from the federal government that
have to do with the attack on

Pearl Harbor, let's say, and
then they'll analyze them and

give you their interpretation
then of what happened. You know,

what the government knew when
they knew it? If they knew

anything, that kind of thing?

How'd you get into this, I
started out as a business major,

actually, Oh, wow. And dropped
accounting three different

times, I'm still angry about
that double entry thing. Makes

no sense to me. I just don't get
it. So I did that. And then I

switched to literature. But
always love to read. So I

thought that would be
interesting. And I was

surprisingly bored with that.

And so this is back in the days
when they would actually print

out a list of the classes being
offered the next semester. So I

got my highlighter out. And I
went through the entire booklet,

and highlighted anything and
everything that sounded remotely

interesting. And when I got
done, it was all grouped in

history, right. So I thought,
Okay, then I'll be a history

major. And so that's what I
started to do them. And then I

took a trip with one of my
classes. I was taking a history

of the Soviet Union class, and
we went to the Soviet Union.

This is in 1991. Wow.

Kosta Yepifantsev: Oh, my gosh,
you were in the Soviet Union in

91. That was like the last year.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. That was an
absolute disarray. Yeah. What

was that? Like?

Dr. Paula Hinton: It was very
chaotic. Yes, we were there in

January. And we were there for
just a couple of weeks. But we

ended up in Lithuania. And while
we were there, they declared

their independence. And so they
were invaded. And so we were

trapped there. And what struck
me was I didn't know what was

going on. I didn't know who to
root for, you know, I mean, I

had a feeling I should root for
the Lithuanians. But I didn't

know why, you know, and it
really bothered me that I was in

the middle of this huge
historical event. And I didn't

know the significance of it. I
didn't know what came before.

You know, I just didn't know
anything really about it. And

that was really, really
frustrating to me, and just made

me feel real powerless and what
was going on. And so it's when I

really got interested then in
really delving into history kind

of comes out of that you cannot
understand the world around you

and your place in it unless you
know the facts of the past, you

know, and

Kosta Yepifantsev: if you aren't
willing to find out and learn

those facts, I think that's when
people default to anger and

frustration. confusion. So as
you're talking, I completely

resonate with what you're
saying, if you don't understand

your past, you're never going to
be able to reconcile what's

happening right now in the
present. Right. So I totally get

that the fact that you were
there at 91. That was, my

goodness,

Dr. Paula Hinton: it was we, we
went down to the square, we our

hotel was right on Red Square.

And we went down there, and
there was a big TV screen. And

Ronald Reagan came on to wish
the Soviets a merry Christmas or

a happy, happy new years. Yeah.

Because their calendars
different from ours. I mean, it

was just there was just all
kinds of historical things

happening, you know, and some of
it I recognized because I was

taking a history of the Soviet
Union class, but we hadn't

gotten to the more modern stuff.

So you know, it was again, but I
completely agree. And that's why

in my classes, you know, I talk
about, you know, presidents, not

all of them, but most of them,
and I talk about wars, I don't

get into a lot of battles and
things. But I spend most of my

time talking about why things
happened. And the significance

of them, you know, are they the
product of something else? Did

they help to cause something
else does it exemplify something

else? Because otherwise, history
then is just a laundry list. And

that's why people hate history,
I find, because they're thinking

of the laundry list, they have
to memorize these dates, these

things happen. And that's not
history, right? I mean, it's

part of it. But that's like the
skeleton that you hang

everything else on?

Kosta Yepifantsev: Well, I think
you also have to be able to open

your mind, if you're not open
minded to see that, you know,

there's a much bigger picture to
be painted, than you will only

focus on the laundry list, you
also have to be curious, you

know, and you also have to have
time to be curious. So, you

know, all those history majors,
I applaud you, I really do. Now,

you teach a variety of courses
at TTU. From the history of

horror films, to ghosts, myths
and legends, to the history of

crime in America. As someone who
knows what scares us and has

extensive knowledge of history
in the United States, how much

of what scares us is actually
real? So

Dr. Paula Hinton: that's kind of
a difficult question to answer,

but I'll give you my take on it.

If we're looking at the history
of crime, and answering that

question, research shows that
the majority of people believe

that there's much more crime
than there actually is. And a

lot of it has to do with all the
media that's available now, and

how aware we are of everything
that's going on. And in some

cases, you know, that play out,
you know, week by week in the

media. But there are still some
dangers there. There are real

dangers that you need to be
aware of. So that stuff is real,

there are really seriously bad
people. I mean, there's some

people that are misunderstood,
but I'm talking to really bad

people. They're not
misunderstood. They're not

confused. They don't wish. Yes,
yeah, yes, they're just evil.

I've just come to that
conclusion. You're just people

who are evil, so you have to
look out for them. If you look

at the ghosts, myths and legends
history of horror films side of

that, and you know, what scares
us what is what is real about

that, that goes to some of the
topics that I teach. One of my

favorites in the ghost myths and
legends class I talked about.

And most people have never heard
of this, there was a vampire

scare in the New England area in
the 1890s. And I mean, they were

decentering bodies, and taking
the hearts out and burning them

on a rock and then feeding them
to people they thought were

victims of vampires. I'm talking
serious here, now, not Dracula

vampire, but they believed that
the dead were somehow coming

back to feast off of family
members. And what was going on

was tuberculosis. That's what
they were seeing in it, you

know, the you look at the names
for tuberculosis, one of them is

consumption is consuming you.

And there is a galloping version
of tuberculosis that goes very

quickly. But most the time you
have tuberculosis for a very

long time. I always sort of
refer to it as the Edgar Allan

Poe, tuberculosis, where you
cough very delicately into your

little white hanky and that kind
of thing. And so it's this slow

wasting away. So when people
were just searching, you know,

for some kind of an answer to
what's going on, and how can I

save my family? Most of them
weren't sure it would really

work, but they're up for
anything at that point. So these

were God fearing really solid
citizens that were doing this,

you know, this wasn't, you know,
some crazy cult or something.

And it didn't happen all over
the place. But that was

fascinating to me. And that
tells us again, we can talk

about vampires, but underneath
that vampire scare is a real

disease or real sickness. If you
look at the Salem Witch Trials

again, there is so much going on
underneath the surface of that I

mean, just complete disorder in
the Puritan world and they're

just reacting to that and then
you mix in a few very bad girls

and a really bad Reverend and
you know, Things can get out of

control very easily.

Kosta Yepifantsev: I am curious,
though. So these are things that

happened in the 19th century.

But the same themes continued to
recur. I mean, obviously, we

live in a community that has a
majority perspective on how

things are, and what the
outcomes and consequences of

those things are. Is there any
way to look at how people feel

right now, in the end, the
decisions that they make, or the

excuses that they say, or the
things that they pick to

justify, I hear a lot of like,
you know, it's the end of the

world, the Second Coming all
that stuff. And this may be too

large of a question to answer
all at once, we may need to cut

it up and digest it one at a
time. But quick summary

question, what do you think is
causing everybody to think it's

n times, it's

Dr. Paula Hinton: fear of the
unknown, and change that feels

like it's happening too fast,
okay. And if we do see that

pattern through history, you
know, with the turn of the

century that you know, the
1900s, you have tremendous

change happening. And you have,
you know, people living in urban

areas, you know, in record
numbers, and they're living, you

know, in places they've never
lived before, a lot of them are

from rural areas, and there's
just this sense of things are

happening too quickly, I don't
feel comfortable in the world

that I'm in. And so this can't
be the way life is supposed to

be, there must be something
bigger going on, and it's

Kosta Yepifantsev: potentially
tarnishing the world as we know

it. So it must end all in a big
crash.

Dr. Paula Hinton: Correct. And
again, we've seen that too,

throughout history where
literally people think it's the

end of the world. Um, the best
example, if your listeners get a

chance, if they're not already
familiar with this, if you go on

YouTube, and you search for the
Dust Bowl, and the dust storms,

it'll blow your mind that looks
like the end of the world. I

mean, this is not a little
tornado of dust. It's the

complete horizon, and it's
coming slowly towards you like

some big blob of a monster. You
know, there were many people who

thought it was the end of the
world and a couple of incidents

where they actually killed their
children and spouse because they

didn't want them to suffer. You
know, I think in today's world

is just the sense that
technology is moving really

quickly.

Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, AI,
oh, it's disrupting so many

professions. And

Dr. Paula Hinton: that has been,
you know, the focus of a lot of

sci fi films and short films for
a long time. Yeah. And now we're

living it. So it's pretty
spooky, scary stuff, you know?

Kosta Yepifantsev: So Elon Musk
said, in three years, we will

have AI that is more intelligent
than the most intelligent human.

And I'll be honest with you, I
pull out chat GPT. I did it. We

had some we had dinner with some
friends last night, and they've

never used Chad GPT. Or he'd
never he had never used GPT. And

I said, bro, like, what do you
want to say, you know, and we

and I asked him to write a
letter about taxes and hotels

and all this other stuff. And
literally, within seconds, wrote

an entire letter that was
coherent that somebody would

take, and they'd be like, yes,
makes sense. We can we can base

an argument and create a
conversation around it. So

people should be in terms of
being scared. They may have not

they may not have been scared or
not had a necessity to be

scared, but just computers, but
AI is something that will

transform our world. Oh, yeah.

Dr. Paula Hinton: It's already
starting to transform education.

Really? I'm beginning to catch
students who are using that for

their papers. How can you tell
though we have a program, okay,

that Tech has purchased, but
it's not ironclad, right? Even

the program says now you have to
kind of take this with a grain

of salt, you know, and so it's a
little wishy washy, but yeah,

it's it's frustrating, and I
think too, and maybe this is the

old lady in me, but I feel like
it's dumbing us down. I just

feel like we're getting dumber
and dumber. It started with you

know, we had spellcheck so
people stopped learning how to

spell correctly. What's the
point then they took cursive out

of the schools which blows my
mind. And now this one

Kosta Yepifantsev: before that,
Grammarly? Yeah, I use it all

the time. And I'm terrible at
grammar. Like when I say I'm

terrible at grammar. I could
write you a novel. The grammar

on that novel would be awful.

And that's what I always got
dinged on because I just I

guess, you know, I'm from out of
town, so I never really learned

Dr. Paula Hinton: but you know,
Grammarly today I was looking at

it because one of my students
was using it. And I went on

there and you can actually
change the tone Yes, of what

you're writing, right. So if you
wanted it to be snarky, or if

you wanted it to be cute if you
want it to be angry. That is

just that just blows my mind,

Kosta Yepifantsev: business,
business style or Prag. Matic

and it gives you a little smiley
face too if you're if you're

sounding cheerful. Oh my
goodness. Let's talk about your

course ghosts, myths and
legends. What's your favorite

lesson from this course? And
currently as a collective? Are

there ghosts myths and legends
we still believe in? Yes, there

Dr. Paula Hinton: are. So I'll
start with my favorite lesson is

really, when I talk about
spiritualism with my class. And

I'm really looking at modern
spiritualism that came out in

New York, actually, in the
1840s, with these two young

girls who told their parents
that they were communicating

with a ghost, the neighbors
heard and they came over to see

and it just kind of grew and
they they worked out this sort

of Morse code kind of system
with the ghost. And so people

came to listen and watch and of
course, PT Barnum popped up his

head and said, Hey, is there
money to be made here? You know,

and when you mean oh, that
wouldn't be bad. So yeah, and

and it very quickly turned into
then mediums started popping up

everywhere, seances and then
they start to use, you know,

more and more technologies
starts with spirit cabinets, and

then it's going to spirit
photography and all this kinds

of stuff. And it's just a lot of
fun to talk about. But it also

reveals so much about what's
going on in the country at the

time and in people's lives. And
I should say Spiritualism is is

the belief that there is an
afterlife, it's it's

Christianity. It's not devil
worship or anything like that.

It's the belief that there's an
afterlife, but that there is

maybe proof of it. And that's
what they're focused on how to

be real world. Yes, yeah. How
can we prove that there's an

afterlife? So that's what the
seances are for, or spirit

photography of all those things.

And so we see a spike in spirit
and spiritualism then, during

and after the Civil War during
and after World War One. This is

when people are desperate to get
in touch with loved ones who

have passed, they want to know
that they're okay. That's

usually the first question
they'll ask, Is he okay? You

know, and they liked the idea
that someday they'll see him

again. And so there's a lot of
that, you know, going on. It's

so

Kosta Yepifantsev: is it real,
though? Um,

Dr. Paula Hinton: I would say
that I am a real skeptic,

meaning I'm not convinced of
anything yet. But I'm open to

it.

Kosta Yepifantsev: And here's
the thing My house is haunted.

And so I mean, you know, I don't
know, I don't it seems like a

pretty friendly ghost. I've
talked about him before on the

show. We call him Casper. You
know, he's just things happen.

You know, weird things happen.

Probably short circuits and
electricity, but we think it's a

ghost. Like I said, very
friendly. Very nice. And, you

know, what? Not? Well, jive.

Yeah, exactly. So I am curious,
with regards to the spiritualism

in with it having such a close
component to Christianity. Does

the whole the the notion of the
Holy Spirit, does that, like

become developed through this
spiritualism? Or is that a

totally different aspect of
Christianity?

Dr. Paula Hinton: That's
something that at least with my

understanding of spiritualism,
that I've not seen, Spiritualism

is sort of broken off into into
other streams. And I'm not

familiar with every one of them,
but it's really looking at this

is a modern world. And surely,
with all the things that we're

inventing, we can come up with a
way to prove that there's a

heaven and a hell. I mean,
Edison was working on a

telephone to the other world. He
worked on that for years and

years, he thought we can
communicate with them just like

we do with the telephone. And so
when you have, you know, people

like that, that are taking it
seriously, it's fascinating. And

of course, then you've got the
whole Harry Houdini, part of it,

versus Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Kosta Yepifantsev: was the
significance in those two,

Dr. Paula Hinton: Harry Houdini
again, desperate to believe in

it, especially after his mother
died. He just really wanted to

know that she was okay that
there was an afterlife, but he

spent most of his time revealing
the fakers out there and so he

would go to seances. And after a
while, he had to start to

disguise himself because as soon
as they saw him, they would shut

everything down, but he would
expose them. And then he became

friends with Sir Arthur Conan
Doyle and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

completely embraced spiritualism
to the point where he got caught

up in an incident that kind of
turned embarrassing, not for him

because he refused to
acknowledge that something had

happened. But there were these
little girls who claimed that

they had photographs of fairies
that were in their backyard, and

he saw them and said, these are
absolutely real. This is

amazing. And he was so excited.

And other people looked at him
and said, Dude, you know, is

this is not Yeah. And this is
the guy who writes Sherlock

Holmes, you know? Yeah. And so
it's just interesting then to

see the clashes between the As
to Worlds then between the

people who want to believe the
people who do believe the people

who don't I mean, it all kind of
comes together. So

Kosta Yepifantsev: not to take
it too deep. But I just want to

just one more rung down. Sure.

What is it about this fight
between reality and what people

make up into perceived reality
that feeds your love of history,

like, why choose Why choose that
dynamic to talk about?

Dr. Paula Hinton: Well, think of
an example, I just got done

teaching Civil War to my
students in the survey class.

And one of the themes that I
talked to them about weeks

before we even start the
material is this idea of reality

versus perception. And if you
look at a lot of the bigger

incidents that sort of drive us
toward the Civil War, it has to

do with misinterpretations of
things, people believing that

something bigger and more
horrible is going on. So you

have something like the Nat
Turner slave revolt. And so this

is a slave revolt. And there
were, I think, don't quote me on

this, but something like 70 or
80 Whites who were killed. It

wasn't ultimately successful,
but it was the most successful

slave revolt in the United
States. And so then you look at,

you know, the the state, you
know, legislature gets together

just weeks later, and you can
read it, and they're trying to

figure out what's to blame,
who's to blame. And they don't

say Nat Turner, they don't say
slavery, they say, northern

white abolitionist, and that's
just ridiculous. Northern White

abolitionist had zero to do with
it. Some of them were cheering

it on. But but they didn't plot
this, but they believed they

did. And so you see that in
just, you know, time after time,

and the same is happening with
northerners who are perceiving

things like Uncle Tom's Cabin as
being nonfiction. Like there

really is, you know, the these
characters really do exist. Now,

of course, they're based on real
people, of course, but their

belief is that there is a Simon
lagree Somewhere living in

Kentucky, you know, and that
every southern white male is

just like him. And so that's
where I think there is this

collision between the two. And
oftentimes we see people acting

upon misperceptions, what they
think is going on instead of

what really is going on. So a
lot of history is that

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that maybe some people are
acting on misperceptions now?

And do you think it's because
they're not willing to? Maybe do

you think it's because they just
don't have the time to digest

the information, the accurate
information because they're not

going to be able to find that
information on a YouTube, right

or on a tic tock or on an
Instagram, like they're going to

actually have to go and pick up
a history book and read it that

has primary sources in it.

Dr. Paula Hinton: I think there
are a handful of people who are

looking for information, but I
think most people are looking to

justify their own beliefs. Okay.

And so they're turning to people
who already agree with them. I'm

trying to think we've really
broken down into this us versus

them. There's no gray area,
everything's black and white. If

you disagree with me, then you
are a bad person. You are a

dangerous person. You are a
stupid person. And so why would

you listen to a bad dangerous,
stupid person, so you don't. And

so everybody stays stuck in
their own beliefs and doesn't

even listen to the other side of
of an issue. It's sad, but and

we're all doing it, though. I
mean, yes. Oh, yeah, I'm not I'm

not talking. I've grown to hate
both parties. The beach party.

So yeah, I'm not I'm not going
on one side or the other here. I

just feel like it's really sad
that we just kind of spend most

of our time reacting and
reacting to what somebody else

has said about what we believe
instead of looking into things

and listening to other people.

I'm happy to listen to somebody
who disagrees with me. And I've

changed my views on things
before. Yeah. And I think you

have to do that. If you want to
keep growing, you know, the

Kosta Yepifantsev: other guy may
be right, right? Right. No, ever

No. You're writing a book about
serial killer Belle gunness who

lived in Indiana and was
reported to have murdered more

than 40 people between 1884 and
1908. Of all the women serial

killers, you've studied what
stood out about Belle story?

Dr. Paula Hinton: First of all,
I think that numbers probably

exaggerated. It could be as many
as 40. But we know for certain

there were 12 Okay, which is a
lot. Yeah. Okay. What stands out

about her, there's a lot of
things. First of all, most

female serial killers aren't
even recognized as such, because

we think of serial killers as
hunting for victims. And so you

know, I would include a female
serial killer who kills every

one of her children, you know,
one year at a time or something

or marries and kills her husband
and remarries kills him. That's

a serial killer, but they're not
hunting like a Ted Bundy or

something and so people don't
recognize them as being the same

thing. Aileen Wuornos, and
Florida popped up, she was said

to be and I think the FBI even
said at the time that she was

the first female serial killer
because she was out hunting for

victims. And that just threw
people off. But Belle gunness

isn't hunting for them. But
she's luring them, which to me

is virtually the same thing.

Yeah. So she's just not, you
know, going to go out and get in

a vehicle and go find them
herself. She just advertised and

had them come to her, and
literally would tell them in

letters to liquidate their
assets and bring all the cash

with them. Wow. So that's what's
interesting about her. The story

itself is just incredible. It
begins with a fire at her farm,

and the neighbors and the town
all come and they find an adult

female body with three
children's bodies. By this time

they fallen down through the
basement, the whole house is is

destroyed. And these four bodies
are found. And she's this

harrowing, because it looked
like she had tried to protect

them. They were all grouped
together. And then a couple of

days later, this man shows up
and he's looking for his

brother, his brother had gone to
visit with her and maybe marry

her. And he hadn't heard from
him for a couple of months. And

he had been, you know,
corresponding with Bill and she

was being very evasive. So he
says, you know, I'm just

wondering, you know, if have you
seen him around, he goes out to

the farm where they're still
cleaning up. And he says, Do you

mind if I just start digging
around? And one of the guys

said, well, there were some soft
spots over there. And he digs

and he literally uncovers his
brother in like 20 minutes. So

they call for the sheriff. And
they come and then they start

digging, and it's one body after
another. And it just keeps

unwinding from there until, you
know, I could go on and on and

on. There's all these twists and
turns. And then it becomes about

partway through the story. They
start to wonder if she was even

the female body in the basement.

Did she get away? And so even 10
or 20 years later, there was a

woman in California who was
arrested. And some people who

lived there saw her mugshot and
said that spelt gunness and they

actually sent a couple of people
from Laporte, Indiana where this

happened to go out and look at
her. So you know, this is a huge

story, and there's no little
tidy ending to it. It's just

kind of incredible.

Kosta Yepifantsev: And you teach
a course called why women kill

it's women who kill women who
kill Okay. Okay. So typically,

it would never, I mean, because
you don't really talk about a

lot of female serial killers,
right? Mostly, they're white

men, correct in their 20s and
30s. So why do women end up

becoming serial killers,

Dr. Paula Hinton: um, just for
some of the same reasons,

others, you know, it's
oftentimes about money, it's

oftentimes about wanting
freedom. So you get rid of your

kids, you get rid of your
husband, you know, a lot of the

same reasons, you just don't see
the sexual predators, like you

would see with a lot of male
serial killers. So that's

probably the biggest difference
there. And the course itself, if

I'm being honest, is really a
woman's history course. But it's

like spoonful of sugar, you
know? Yeah. So we'll talk about

the crimes. But as we're talking
about the deviant women, we have

to talk about, well, what's the
accepted norm? Right. So it's a

woman's history course.

Kosta Yepifantsev: I love it.

Maybe I'll take it. Yeah. It's
no secret. We love true crime.

It's one of the fastest growing
genres of film, television and

podcasts. What is it about
listening to the gruesome

details of how people were
killed that we want to hear?

Dr. Paula Hinton: There's a lot
of theories on that. One of the

ones that I find the most
fascinating is that it's an

actual biological kind of urge
that it comes from that sort of,

you know, hunt, be hunted kind
of instinct. And so there's this

sense that we want to inform
ourselves on who we should be Be

afraid of and why and what
situations to avoid, or even how

to protect our family, you know,
if we're looking at it from from

that point of view, and how
victims have escaped, and we may

not even recognize that's what
we're doing. But they think that

that's kind of, you know,
underlying all of it. It's also

a great detective story. We're
seeing now a rise in these, you

know, Facebook, you know, sites
and things where they're trying

to solve cold cases, right? Even
contemporary cases, and they're

doing it seriously. They're not
just goofing around, and they're

taking it very seriously. And so
for a lot of people, it's it's

playing detective. And I don't
mean that to diminish it. I

didn't mean that in the sense
that they're just, I

Kosta Yepifantsev: mean, some of
them have been successful in

overturning and catching like,
killers from cases that have

been close since like the 80s.

Yes.

Dr. Paula Hinton: And even if
they just reopen a case, that's

a success, sometimes if you just
get people to reinvestigate or

to look at things again, you
know, so that's been great. I

think there's also more access,
like you said, there's more of

it out there. But I think too,
it's just, there are some just

fascinating cases out there. If
I just think of the last few

months, we're talking Alex
Murtaugh, I mean, talk about

your twists and turns.

Literally, if I saw that in the
film, I would just shake my head

and go, Oh, please, you know,
this would not happen in real

life. But it did. There's a case
out of Florida, the eighth

Wilson family that is starting
to open up now. They've already

convicted 1234 People for the
murder of one man, and now

they're bringing in his mother
in law and some other people.

It's really complicated, but the
one of the guys is a dentist,

and it's just this crazy case.

And then you have the Chad
daybell and Lori vallow daybell,

the doomsday cult folks. So
she's had her trial recently.

Chad de belles trial is probably
going to start in, I don't know,

six months or so. The Idaho

Kosta Yepifantsev: murders. Yes,
that is that is something that I

am so intrigued about. And I

Dr. Paula Hinton: watched her
trial. And it's fascinating. And

they're not even trying the
cases in Las Vegas. There's

other stuff that happened in Las
Vegas to I mean, that's not even

the complete story. Wow, it just
again, it's like the Alex

Murdock case. He just keeps
opening up, you know, and they

just keep adding more and more
victims to the list. You

Kosta Yepifantsev: think that he
killed his wife and son? Yes.

Dr. Paula Hinton: Okay. I do. I
didn't at first, but I watched

the whole trial. And yeah,

Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, he
was like, he admitted that he

was an opioid addict. Yeah. And
I don't know, do you believe

that that's true, or he might

Dr. Paula Hinton: have dabbled
in it. And it looks like he

probably did, but I don't think
he's anywhere near the addict

that he pretends to be. I don't
know how you spend millions of

dollars anyway, he would have he
would have dropped dead by that

point, you know, so,

Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, I'm
assuming you watch and listen to

true crime. Yes. Okay. All
right. So since you've been

researching what is probably
your most fascinating, fine,

like what has been something
that stuck in your craw and just

kept you up at night like, Man,
I wish somebody would solve

this.

Dr. Paula Hinton: I think the
old standby and I hate to be a

cliche, but Jack the Ripper, you
know, it's never gonna get

solved. They've already tried
the DNA and all that and there's

just a lot of the evidence that
they had is walked away when

people retire. They took little
bits and bobs them, you know,

but I would love to see that.

One of my favorite cases that I
teach my women who killed class

is the Lizzie Borden case. And
she totally did it or at least

knows who did it. But she walked
away. They found her not guilty.

But I would love for there to be
sort of a some kind of, you

know, find her diary or
something. You know, that would

be awesome. And what was Lizzie
Borden? She's the one who took

an axe gave her father 40 wax,
you know that O'Brien? Yeah,

yeah. And it wasn't really 40.

But, and it's actually I always
thought it was a really old

case. And it is from the late
1800s. But there are crime scene

photographs and stuff that'll
blow your mind. It was it was a

messy crime. Yes.

Kosta Yepifantsev: And here's
the thing, I gotta say, I don't

know a whole lot about Jack the
Ripper. Other than that he

killed women in London. And
people were trying to solve who

he was correct. Okay, so nobody
knows who this serial killer

was. And he was essentially the
first serial killer in recorded

history.

Dr. Paula Hinton: He's not the
first that ever existed. But

he's the first in modern history
with modern newspapers that were

priced, where the average person
was, could afford them and buy

them. And because it remained a
mystery, it just spread. And you

know, I could bring in 30
experts on Jack the Ripper, and

they will tell you that it's 30
different people. And if you

listen to their arguments, you
would believe just about every

one of them too. They all make
sense to a certain degree.

Kosta Yepifantsev: I mean, I
just feel like it could be it is

extremely difficult to be a
serial killer in 2023. Like

yeah, because I mean, you are
literally you've got your tract,

everywhere you go. There's a
camera on every single corner

license plate readers, I mean
everything. There's no possible

way that you could bounce
around, you know, city to city

across the United States killing
people.

Dr. Paula Hinton: Oh, yeah. Alex
Murdock, what did him in?

Really, I think what was pivotal
where people started to think

maybe, is his son literally
minutes before he shot and they

kind of know when he shot
literally minutes before that is

recording a dog in their kennel
who belongs to a friend of

theirs, because he thinks
there's something wrong with a

tail. And so he's filming it so
his friend can see. And they're

trying to think, is there
something wrong? Do we need to

do something and you can hear
him in the background talking?

And he said he wasn't there? And

Kosta Yepifantsev: there you go,
technology saving the day? Yeah.

Dr. Paula Hinton: So yeah, if I
was going to kill somebody, I

would get a time machine. And I
would also maybe go to Canada or

England where they don't punish
you as much as we do here. So

Kosta Yepifantsev: before we
wrap up, I want to ask you a

serious question. They say those
who don't know history are

doomed to repeat it. In your
opinion, as a historian, and

Professor, do you believe we
have enough of an understanding

of history to not repeat it? No.

Dr. Paula Hinton: And I don't
mean to be negative Nancy, and I

think I really am becoming so
negative. So I really try to

watch myself. But no, we're just
doing the same stupid stuff

again, and again, and again. And
I've come to believe, and this

will never happen. But it would
be wonderful if we required

every politician at every level,
to master American history,

constitutional history,
political science, foreign

policy, those kinds of things,
and to understand what has

happened in the past and why,
you know, and it can be done.

And it's been done. World War
Two, as soon as you know, it

looked like that was starting to
percolate. Congress got together

and said, Okay, we got pulled
into World War One. Let's look

at how that happened. And let's
try to avoid it. And so you get

all the neutrality acts, again,
didn't work in the end, because

you've got a Hitler and some
big, you know, horrible people.

But again, they they did learn
from the past, but overall, we

just don't do it. And it's kind
of sad. You

Kosta Yepifantsev: know, what's
interesting about history is it

allows us to have a conversation
in the gray. It allows us to

look at where we are now from
different angles. And I talk

about my experience with African
American Studies, often because

it was so impactful was life
changing for me. But it applies

to so many different aspects,
not just to the history of

African Americans, meaning like
the stuff actually studying the

history of how events occurred.

I have been trying to reconcile
this. And I've been spending a

lot of time in urban areas,
trying to understand it from

from people that lived their
perspective. Was the civil

rights, actually a good thing
for the African American

community? Oh, and was
desegregation actually a good

thing for the African American
because if you if you take the

perspective of Booker T,
Washington, there would have

been more benefit in the fact
that African Americans were

segregated and one segregation
was lifted, there was a lot of

African American teachers that
lost positions, African American

schools, that, you know, popular
belief is that they're terrible,

but they were actually
excellent, they created what's

known as the talented 10th. In
those environment. So if we look

back to the history of civil
rights, maybe it was just

unfinished is why we feel like
we have the opportunity to look

at is maybe a negative or maybe
just like an unfinished work. Am

I on the right track?

Dr. Paula Hinton: I would, I
would say definitely was

unfinished, didn't accomplish
everything that it could have,

and that people wanted it to, as
far as whether it, you know,

went in the wrong direction or
not was actually a negative.

People been talking about that
since you know, like around

1900, where you've got a Booker
T Washington versus a W. EB

Dubois, and they have very
opposite views. And they are

both logical. They both make
sense. I think that's just

something that people have to
decide for themselves. I don't

know that there's an answer to
that. And I don't feel like I

have the background to to even
theorize more than I already

have. But that is a huge, huge
question. Yeah.

Kosta Yepifantsev: It's been on
my mind a lot lately and really,

for the last year, it has been.

Second question is, was the
election of Donald Trump the

popular media has said that it
was because of the fact that two

thirds So Americans do not have
a college degree. And again,

these are statistics so that I
hear. So if I'm wrong, you need

to correct me. Two thirds of
Americans do not have a college

degree. So they have a high
school diploma or lower. And

specifically, the white male,
non college educated vote is

what sort of put Trump in the
position that he was. My

question is, is, why have we as
a country in the 70s, and 80s,

done everything in our power to
lower the labor participation

rate by taking away jobs through
globalization and continuing to

propagate that by essentially
eliminating what was the golden

age of the 50s and 60s for white
men essentially, being able to

earn and have a single income
family, all of the things that

we see in popular culture? Why
did we choose policy positions

that destroyed it, and
essentially has led us into this

chaotic environment where we're
choosing the person that doesn't

have any political background?

And we're just going, yes, that
guy is the loudest. And he's the

most controversial, and I
believe he'll have my back. So

we're going there.

Dr. Paula Hinton: That's a huge
question. Um, I think that in a

lot of ways, you had politicians
who were talking to a larger

audience, and who were serving
them.

Kosta Yepifantsev: By larger
audience, you mean the globe?

Like the world? Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Paula Hinton: But also just
even the voters in America. I

think that, you know, by the
time we get to the 70s, and 80s,

unions were losing a lot of
their power and influence. And I

don't think they were listened
to as much the thing with with

Trump, I think, again, I'm not a
political scientist, and I'm a

historian. So to me, this is
history. But my gut has always

been that people are completely
missing the boat on this. And

it's kind of insulting to say,
and I don't know about the

statistics, if they're correct
or not. But it seems dismissive

to me. What they're missing is,
I think that was happening in

both parties. With Bernie. Yeah,
yeah. Bernie Sanders and Donald

Trump, they were both so
similar. Both out of the party.

Really? Yeah. They're both loud.

They're both opinionated. They
both are driven. I thought they

were very similar in a lot of
ways, not their politics,

certainly. But these were ground
up movements on both sides. And

the Democrats, I think were able
to maneuver older politicians in

and move him out of the way. And
the Republicans couldn't do it.

But I think there was a bigger
movement going on, where I think

Americans in general, were
saying, We're sick of all these

politicians, and we want
something different. And I think

that's what was, you know, maybe
really, something that drew

people to him is that he's not
the same old thing, right?

Because we've had the same old
thing again, and again and

again. And it doesn't seem to be
working. You know,

Kosta Yepifantsev: when did it
stop working? Go golly, I know,

I'm asking you a lot of
questions that may be outside of

your scope, but just just bear
with me. I talk about inflection

points all the time. So when do
you think was America's

inflection point?

Dr. Paula Hinton: I keep
thinking of different points and

then thinking No. I have this
feeling that it's early 20th

century,

Kosta Yepifantsev: the recoil
from the progressive movement? I

Dr. Paula Hinton: think that's
part of it. Okay. I think that's

a big part of it. I think the
Great Depression played a big

role. I think we also keep
forgetting. And here we are,

again, forgetting the past, the
the 1918 flu pandemic, on top of

the war, that was the last year
of the war, you know, you're

talking about millions and
millions of people who disappear

from the planet within a four
year period of time. And I think

people don't recognize what an
impact that had. I just feel

like there's something happening
around there. And again, this is

beyond my scope of knowledge
here.

Kosta Yepifantsev: No, I believe
me, I love it. Yeah, I could sit

here and talk to you for three
hours. Oh,

Dr. Paula Hinton: thank you. But
I will say to that, that's when

I see just my own opinion, where
I find fewer and fewer

politicians that I find
readable, where they're writing

things, or giving speeches that
I think are profound, the

numbers start to dwindle. At the
end. That's just my own personal

opinion. I was talking earlier
about Thomas Paine, I was

reading something from the
American crisis to my students.

And I thought nobody writes like
this anymore. You know, nobody's

got this passion. Nobody
believes these kinds of things.

You know, nobody's able to use
rhetoric in the same way for the

same purpose. But again, that's
just my personal opinion. So

Kosta Yepifantsev: we always
like to end the show on a high

note, who is someone that makes
you better when you're together?

Well,

Dr. Paula Hinton: that would
definitely be my mother. She has

been an example too. me my whole
life, even today still, you

know, here I am Negative Nancy
and I'll go and see her. She

brought me chilly this morning
by the way, she made it at home

and brought it over this
morning. So, but if I were to,

you know, spend some time with
her this afternoon My mood would

shift, I would start to see the
world as a much kinder world, a

world where there's more
morality than I think there is

where things are a little better
than they are. She always puts

other people before herself and
she does things for other people

silently and happily. They never
know she's done it. She doesn't

need to pat on the back, which I
find really admirable. And I

wish I could do I always sort of
need that little thank you from

people. That's terrible, but
it's true. So I would say my mom

Kosta Yepifantsev: Thank you to
our partners Miss Sallie’s

Market for presenting this
episode. I hope it’s no secret

by now, I don’t know my way
around the kitchen. However, I

do know my way to the kitchen.

That’s where Miss Sallie’s
Market comes in. With fresh,

locally sourced to-go meals made
daily, I don’t have to worry

about my cooking skills getting
in the way of our eating skills.

Open 10:00 AM to 8:00 PM Tuesday
through Saturday, Miss Sallie’s

Market is located in the heart
of Downtown Gainesboro with free

community tastings every
Thursday from 4-6. Find out

more about vendors, offerings

and weekly : www.misssallies.com

Morgan Franklin: Thank you for
joining us on this episode of

Better Together with Kosta
Yepifantsev. If you've enjoyed

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and editing by Mike Franklin.

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