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Our Family Office is proud to announce the launch of the Our Family Office Podcast. Throughout the course of the inaugural season, host Adam Fisch speaks to various guests from across our firm, offering insights into the areas of focus for an integrated family office, and the ways that a Shared Family Office™ can help Canada’s wealthiest families.
Welcome back to the Our Family Office podcast. I'm your host, Adam Fisch. This season, we're talking about the rising generation and what makes them unique. In today's season finale, I had the chance to speak to Jenny, a fifth generation member of a successful European family and a client of Our Family Office. In this conversation, Jenny generously shared her experiences growing up with privilege, developing a sense of stewardship for her family's wealth, and how working with our family office has helped her and her family.
Adam Fisch:I hope you enjoy it.
Adam Fisch:Jenny, thanks so much for being here.
Jenny:Thanks. Thanks for having me, Adam. I'm really excited to have a chat with you.
Adam Fisch:So I think a good place to start is telling the listeners a little bit about your family's history.
Jenny:Sure. So my family is half German, half Canadian. My father is German, and my mother's Canadian. They met in Canada and got married, and had me and my sister in Germany. And then we moved to Canada when I was about five years old, and then had my brother and my sister, so we, there's four of us.
Jenny:And so I grew up in Toronto mostly, but sort of with one foot in Canada, one foot in Germany. My dad's side is still all in Germany, and there's a family business that has tied us to Germany, and still to this day, I regularly travel there because of the business, but also because of, obviously, my family lives there. So I've, basically my childhood was spent the summers in Germany, and the rest of the year I went to school in Toronto. So, yeah, and my, we're tied together. My father has four siblings, and they have a family business that's now I would be the fifth generation of. And yeah, that's basically the summary of my family, I guess, how we landed in Canada.
Adam Fisch:And we'll talk about your involvement in the family business in a few minutes. But I think going back to your childhood, when did you first become aware of your family's wealth?
Jenny:That's a very interesting question. I was thinking about this because the word wealth didn't really appear in my consciousness, like really as a, thinking of it as something in terms of like connected to me and my family or my life until I became an adult. So it was more, like my family never led with wealth. It was never an identifier as within our family. It was always, I think the awareness around privilege was more of a conversation that, well, internal conversation for sure, but it was more about talking.
Jenny:We never talked about it. Like we never, it was never something that was explicitly talked about within our core family. It was more something that was reflected back at us from the outside. And the awareness grew over a very long time when we were sort of brought closer to the business as we were getting older. And there was, we were made more aware of, okay, this is a family business.
Jenny:Someone needs to take over, who's that gonna be? Was it gonna be me, one of my cousins? And then slowly, it wasn't until I was in my 20s really, where I really made the connection of wealth, like the actual, like monetarily wealth. And that was a very interesting thing because it might, I have a feeling it's quite a unique experience being in a family where there is a lot of wealth, but it's not really spoken about. It's not really the center point of discussion or circles we were in.
Jenny:My parents never traveled in wealthy circles. It was sort of, they had friends through work, or my mother was an artist, so she had a lot of artist friends. And it wasn't something that, wasn't a predominant feature of my childhood at all. It was yeah.
Adam Fisch:But it sounds like, you know, it wasn't talked about, but it doesn't sound like it was the kind of thing where, you know, where some families are, oh, don't talk about money. Like, wasn't shushed. It sounds like it was maybe more just wasn't a focus.
Jenny:Yeah. It wasn't really a focus. It was more like, if you need something, buy it. It wasn't like, there were weird and I think there were some incongruities because of that. Because we lived, I went from grade one to six, went to a public school. And then from then onwards, I went to a private school. So I had peers that were in similar circumstances that I was, but they didn't really necessarily behave in the same way. And there were certain, you know, like you go to people's houses and it was understood you were of a certain status potentially, but it wasn't, there was no discussion around it. It was just, this is your life. And nobody in my family pointed it out to us or made an effort to say like this, you know, make it a big deal in any way.
Jenny:In fact, I talked to my father recently about this, and he said, like, we kind of actively as parents I don't- he didn't use the word hid it, but it was more like, they wanted us to have as normal of a life as possible within like the circumstances we are given. So it wasn't a discussion.
Adam Fisch:Right. And you made a comment a couple minutes ago about your privilege kind of being reflected back at you from the outside. Can you expand on what you meant?
Jenny:Yeah. So there was a few there's moments where I think there was- there's two parts to it. There's sort of me as a person growing up, and then wanting to understand the world, and launching myself. Like, in my early twenties, I traveled a lot. I went to places that were very different from the cultures that I knew. I went to Africa, and I think that expanded me in ways where I, that privilege piece became so much more obvious. And I really sat with that and understood that. And then there was, you know, people remarking things to me. Like for example, the day I moved into residence at U of T, and I had, I came with my, you know, the usual stuff you come with, your duvet, your pillows, and my roommate, she like came and ran, she grabbed my pillow and my duvet and ran into the hall with them, like towards me and was like, are you rich? Like she yelled it into the hallway.
Jenny:Like, and it was just such a, and I didn't even, like it wasn't something even that crossed my mind. There was sort of moments along the way where there were reflections of, oh, this other people see or seeing something that I'm not- not that I'm not aware of, but it's more that I don't pay attention to.
Adam Fisch:Right. Like other people saw it as something more important or maybe more central to you than you saw.
Jenny:Yeah.
Adam Fisch:So, and I'm curious if you can think back on that moment because that that is a really kind of telling anecdote, how you felt in that moment.
Jenny:I think it was, first reaction was confusion. Like I just like, it totally took me by surprise because that's not something, especially if I'm in a group meeting people for the first time, it's not an awareness that I come to. It's not something I think about. And I'm just, you know, in a group trying to meet people. And it's not something- So I guess, yeah, surprise would be the first reaction. And then almost ignore the comment and then and then go keep going.
Adam Fisch:Right. I mean, I guess not really necessarily having a great answer for that question. Like, what are you what are you really gonna say?
Jenny:Yeah. Exactly.
Adam Fisch:So I know you've touched on it a little bit, but how do you think about what your relationship with wealth was like growing up? And I mean, in some ways, sounds like there almost wasn't one, but even not having one is still having one.
Jenny:Yeah. I think that's very- that's pretty accurate. I think there when we were preparing for this, and then you sent me those questions, the guiding questions, and there was a lot of like the word wealth that just like kept popping up. And I really had to think because honestly, there was no relationship with wealth. Like it was not, because like I said, it wasn't something that we talked about.
Jenny:It wasn't part of life, really. It wasn't until coming into a position of responsibility where, you know, people started telling us, like my parents' generation, like, it's gonna be on you one day. And then come into this, into play that idea of like responsibility and stewardship. And that kind of, to me, the wealth is tied to those concepts and is not something- is not tied to ownership.
Adam Fisch:And it's interesting because when I think of you and your family and, you know, you've worked with us for a number of years, I do think of your family as not being afraid to kind of enjoy the wealth, doesn't not particularly ostentatious, but kind of living authentically and not being afraid to spend money on things that seem worthwhile.
Jenny:Mhmm. Yeah. I think that's a good way of describing it. I think we did because we did grow up with it, it wasn't just because I, maybe it's hard to frame it in terms of, like, I didn't ignore it because that you were, I was born into it. So there was already certain things that were established, You know, the way my parents' family lived, for example, like in Germany, the way that the also they live in a smaller town in Germany where wealth is looked at quite differently and status of the social statuses are quite, they're more in your face than in a place like a big city like Toronto.
Jenny:So I was aware that when I went to Germany, my family had a certain status. And because of that, enjoyed certain things in life that come with privilege, I was quite aware of. And so that being brought up in that world, then it just is part of what I knew. And then I think as an adult, or getting close and more comfortable, I think joining the family office and expanding and taking on responsibility has also come with being able to enjoy those things more.
Jenny:I think it took me a long time and a lot of wrestling with guilt before I was okay to enjoy, like the nicer things and the privileges that this life, you know, affords. But I think that only came with me sort of taking on the reins and being a participant in the responsibility of it as well.
Adam Fisch:Yes. And I think that's not uncommon that often, you know, members of the rising generation, they struggle with wanting to enjoy it or feeling like they should, but also feeling to some extent like it doesn't really belong to them. And it doesn't surprise me that, you know, as you took on more of an ownership role, you felt more entitled to treating the wealth as if you were an owner . Because those things can go hand in hand. Mhmm. Right? You're acting like an owner, so it can feel you feel more sense of ownership.
Jenny:Yeah. Owner is an interesting word. As you were saying it, it does still make me feel uncomfortable. But it's more I think it's more the feeling of agency that comes with the responsibility and that, to me it's very, that stewardship word is such a big word. I think that's been so ingrained in our family.
Jenny:I think being a family where we're now, like I said, like my family, we did sell the family business and, or the majority of our family business in 2019. But it was so ingrained in us that we were part of a lineage of something that I think the connection and ownership was never really part of the way of thinking about it or the way it was presented. It was more about, this is something that gets passed along.
Adam Fisch:Right.
Jenny:And you and well, I was gonna say, and you better do it right, but that's my own- that's my own voice talking to me. That's not anyone else's. That was just my own. Yeah.
Adam Fisch:That's your own sense of responsibility.
Jenny:Yeah. Exactly.
Adam Fisch:And do you feel like your siblings' relationships with wealth were similar to yours, having grown up kind of in the same environment? Do you feel like there was some variety between you?
Jenny:I think, like, the four of us. So there's an eleven year span, I'm the eldest and my youngest sister is eleven years younger than me. I think of all of all of us have a very similar approach and a very I think that's one thing, like my youngest sister and I have, we're like half a generation apart and there's so many things that separate us, but I think this is one of those things that really has tied us together and we really all have similar approaches. And I think we all have that. We all wrestled with that, the guilt part for sure. We all wrestled with the responsibility. We all had different kind of ways of dealing with it.
Adam Fisch:Right.
Jenny:And but I think fundamentally, we all like, when we when I talk to them, I think it's all we all have our very similar minds of of how we how we feel about it for sure.
Adam Fisch:Yeah. And I do think from, you know, us getting to know your family that it's a credit to your parents and to each of you as individuals that money has never seemed like something that created conflict between you or to the extent that it has, you've been able to, as a family, work through it in healthy ways and ultimately come out still having really close relationships.
Jenny:Yeah. I think that's very true. I think in our immediate family, the money never there is no such thing as a fight that was caused by money. In our extended family, I think with that, with the transition of generations, there was, I think, because within the larger group, there's more diversified thinking around money and values that happen. I think there were there's conflict on that arena, like on that front, but there I think it was always kind of, I was gonna say forced, but it wasn't forced it was sort of like imbued into us from the beginning.
Jenny:Like, we are a business family, business family. And it's like the word business and family, and then it's kind of become a joke where family business is like an oxymoron, right? Like, don't mix family and business. But here we are, generations later. It's interesting because I think we as a extended family put so much effort into maintaining the family structure. And when there was conflict, it was always, at all costs, we need to protect the family. And don't, like, there's too many examples where this has gone other ways and it has torn families apart.
Adam Fisch:Sure.
Jenny:And I think whenever, like we had communication workshops, for example, that when there was conflict, we tried to gather as many tools as we could to address the issues so that the connection remained.
Adam Fisch:Yeah. And I mean, as you're talking about the the extended family, you stepped in on your father's behalf as kind of your nuclear family's representative in the management of the broader family's assets. Can you talk a little about what that journey has been like for you?
Jenny:Yeah. It's been interesting. It's been like, I've surprised myself on a lot of levels, throughout the process. So I think a number- it started this process started obviously with the previous generation. Back in 2003, my parents' generation sort of started working on a family constitution that had to do with succession and figuring out how this generational transfer was even supposed to happen.
Jenny:And I was in my early 20s at the time. And I'm the eldest of all of my cousins, of the 12 cousins, I'm the eldest. And there was these workshops that happened on my parents' generation's level. And they tried to sort of craft together this constitution and predicting how things should go in the future.
Adam Fisch:Right.
Jenny:And created kind of like a set of rules on how to make this happen. And as part of that, they developed sort of a what they called like a driver's license to get us close to the company. So we had a rule where every cousin had to work in one of our companies and get to know the business. And we had like a list of requirements we had to fulfill. I think only me and my youngest sister and one of my cousins actually went through and did all-
Adam Fisch:Checked all the boxes.
Jenny:Those things.
Adam Fisch:Yeah.
Jenny:So there was it became clear over the years as the elder generation wanted to like work us into the business that interests lay elsewhere. For the most part, people, including me, actually, like I went to school for biology. I studied molecular biology. I went into research. So I was off in a very different field for many years.
Jenny:But there was always this, you know, the business side. We would go to Germany for board meetings. And there was always, of the quarterly reports were always shared with the next generation. So now I always opened them. I always like looked at them, tried to understand them.
Jenny:You know, spent some time kind of looking at numbers, trying to really And it was just something that like was kind of, if I look back now, it kind of feels like a hobby. Like it was kind of like, oh, this is something that's part of my family. There was no, I didn't feel pressure to do it. It was sort of just something that was an interest. And then, yeah, and so as the years went on, it became clearer and clearer.
Jenny:Like my uncle is about to turn 70. My uncle ran the family business for thirty years. And he, you know, wants to retire. People, and year after year, this is in the early 20-teens, I think, year after year, there was sort of this like at family meetings and annual family events, there was always this like moment that came when they were like, okay guys, is it like, are we thinking about this? We thinking about the next generation?
Adam Fisch:Is there a plan?
Jenny:Is there a plan? Is there interest? And there never was interest. So back in the when was this around 2017, my uncle's family went through a big transition and they basically put on the table at that time that we would sell the business. And it really caused a huge division in our family, I guess.
Jenny:Was a big surprise. And that led to a lot of conflict, conflict resolution. I think now we've come through it in a way where we all are, you know, we all got through it together, which is I think a huge testament to the effort that we put in to trying to maintain our family.
Adam Fisch:For sure.
Jenny:But so through that process, me personally, I kind of was disconnected to be honest. Like I didn't think about participating in a leadership way at all. It wasn't until the business was agreed to be sold and sold, but the business is just part of it. We still have basically the German version of a trust and property, and that all still needed to be managed and who was gonna manage it. So then basically the older generation was like, you guys need to sit in a room and figure out what you wanna do.
Jenny:Like, and that includes not doing anything. It includes, you know, everyone goes their separate ways and we separate everything. Or do we wanna continue on together? And so we hired someone and he led us through workshops, and we kind of sat together over weekends. And we basically laid out like the different positions and put them on paper on the floor, and everyone kind of had their time to express what their feeling was and how connected they were to the family, how connected they were to the business, and sort of to map out everyone's individual relationships to everything, basically.
Jenny:And it was really interesting. And at the end of that workshop, someone really sat I can't remember if it was my cousins that said, okay, well then who- Is anyone actually interested in taking on this role, this leadership role? And I honestly have no idea where it came from, but I raised my hand. And it was a it was a surprise to I think everyone in the room. It was a surprise to me.
Jenny:But I think I felt really good about it. It was something I went back. I was staying at my aunt's because obviously I don't live in Germany, so I was staying at my aunt's place. And that evening going back to my aunt's, telling her what happened. And she was like, I think it's perfect for you.
Jenny:Like, I think you really should, take this on. And I think that was basically the start of this journey for me. I have been working like under my, let's call it my uncle's wing for the last, over a year now, two years. Slowly my working my way in. I'm helping to manage the assets that we have in Germany.
Jenny:I'm meeting with portfolio managers and all of our investments that are taken care of over there. So I'm actually next week about to fly there and do my semi annual meetings with all the portfolio managers. It's been difficult. Like it's also, I am a fluent German speaker, but I'm not in the German business world. Not in the German financial world.
Jenny:That has been a learning curve just in itself, let alone the financial world. So it's been great. Like I like taking on challenges. I like taking on the, a new world that I'm unfamiliar with. And yeah, and I think that piece of responsibility that we talked about at the beginning, it kind of brings together my curiosity about the world and learning new things and really trying to understand the world with that piece of the responsibility and taking that, to use your word, ownership of the the privileged situation we've been I've been put in, and sort of making it, trying to participate and making it useful.
Adam Fisch:But to use the word that you used earlier, you know, there's so much value in the agency that went along with that process, right? Where your experience with it might have been very different if it was something that was foisted upon you rather than everyone sitting in the room and saying who wants to volunteer and there being an option, like you said, of it could have been nobody. And then you would have kind of proceeded on down that path, but you had the freedom to choose to volunteer and, you know, that allows you to come at it, I would imagine, with a very different mindset because it's something that you signed up for, not something that was put upon you.
Jenny:That's absolutely correct. I think through this process, I think the, like it's been a learning curve on the other, you know, on both generations, the older generation and this generation. My father's father died suddenly of a heart attack. So the way there was no generational transfer on that side. So there was no one looming above my father and his siblings.
Jenny:And so they had to kind of pick up the pieces right away and they made it their own. So I think when it became their turn to be beyond, you know, the transferring to the next generation, there was no blueprint for it. They hadn't had the struggle of, you know, being told what to do or, you know, suggested. I think at the beginning of that process, it did feel more like a you have to. And I think over the course of the years, it became clear that the more that they tried to force things, the more, you know, everyone
Adam Fisch:Resistance
Jenny:and Yeah, everyone scrambled in different directions and was like, not me, not me. And I think it was a very, I don't know if it was over, it happened naturally or if it was something that was a conscious thing. But once that pressure was off, like you're very right. It was there, people had the freedom and then, you know, that's like, I think that's partially why it was such a surprise when I raised my hand because it was something, like, that I wasn't used to. I think it was a new feeling to have this freedom and then to all of a sudden realize, hey. Like, now I can decide what I want, you know?
Adam Fisch:So I have a couple of closing questions, and, you know, I think your candor has been, really insightful, so I appreciate it. What's your hope for the future of your family's wealth? And that can be your immediate family, the broader German family, kind of however you wanna take it.
Jenny:That's an interesting question. My hope is- So I always I think of it as And I've always thought of it this way, like wealth and money is not, to me, it's potential. It's an energy, it can do something. It's here, it exists to do something with. And I think the way that I've seen it is I would like to take, I'd like to take what's been, I've been carefully given, and the responsibility that's been given to me.
Jenny:And I'd like to first understand it and learn what it means to have it. And by understanding and learning, do something good with it. And sort of plays it, like I said to a friend recently, like, what did I can't remember the word I used, but like spin it into something that I can feel good handing off to the next generation.
Adam Fisch:Right.
Jenny:That is making the world better in some way. I don't, whatever that means. I think that is also decided by the next generation, what that means. Like Yeah. If they were given something worthwhile or not.
Adam Fisch:Yeah. And that definition can to the extent that you're defining it, it can change throughout your life. And Once it's with the next generation, can change throughout their lives as well.
Jenny:Yeah.
Adam Fisch:So I have to ask you this question since we're here, and we've worked with your you your family is was one of our earliest clients. How do you feel like working with a family office has helped you and your family?
Jenny:It's been a really valuable thing. Think so when we sold the business, and it was liquidated, and our piece of the pie came to Canada, like we had to take care of in Canada, as a family, we quickly decided, I think because of, you know, things I've talked about, that instinctively we kind of wanted to group together as a family and manage our assets together. And then it became about the lack of knowledge and understanding and having a safe place to put wealth and feel comfortable. I think that was a really important piece. And I think what Finding You as a Family Office has done for us is given us like a safe structure to learn and understand and grow with, and it's turned into something more where it's like, it's about self development.
Jenny:It's turned like for me personally into self development too, because of, you know, I've, taken on this role and it's become a bigger part of my life. And I think, and also we just are building a foundation, and my brother and I have become really active in the foundation. And that's become a big passion of both of ours. So I think it's become, essentially is a, it was initially a place of refuge, and then it's turned into a place of where, of growth. And I think being able to kind of come to all of you guys, it's like developing relationships with all of you experts in your fields, knowing that we have that safety is enormous.
Jenny:I think I remember in our first interview with Tim and Neil, I think, I don't know if it was Tim or Neil who said it, but basically their goal is so that you don't, you can sleep at night easily. And that, I think that's exactly what you guys have done. Is that I don't go to bed at night worried. Like I have the things I worry about and I'm thinking about, but at the end of the day, I know there is a safety net around me. And that's like on multiple fronts.
Jenny:Like not just on the, you know, purely like, yeah, with the nuts and bolts of the tax front and the, and you know, investments and all of that. But also you guys take the time to learn and understand the family's individual needs. And I think that's hugely valuable because at the end of the day, money is, you know, it's all about relationships and values, and it's an expression of all those things. And getting to know and understand those things is, you know, an important piece, which you guys do very well.
Adam Fisch:I promise our listeners I didn't write that answer, but I appreciate it and it's wonderful to hear. So Jenny, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. We really appreciate it, And we hope to continue working with your family for many years to come.
Jenny:You're welcome. Thanks. I had a good time.
Adam Fisch:I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you for listening throughout this season. The challenges that the rising generation faces are complex, but tend to share similarities between families. As you've heard from both experts and members of the rising generation this season, you don't need to face those challenges alone. Families navigating generational wealth benefit from communication, deep thought about shared values, and the help of experts across domains working together to serve them.
Adam Fisch:If you've heard any insights over the course of this season that might help you or your family, please visit ourfamilyoffice.ca for more information about us. Thanks to all our guests and to Henry Shew for his producing work. As always, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe. See you soon.
Adam Fisch:The information in this podcast is presented as a general educational and informational resource only.
Adam Fisch:While certain participants in this podcast may be registered to provide investment advice as a representative of Our Family Office, Inc, itself a registered firm in certain Canadian jurisdictions, this podcast does not provide individualized investment, financial planning, legal, tax, or insurance advice, nor is it meant as a recommendation to any listener to buy or sell any specific securities or otherwise take any other investment action. Any action you may take as a result of the information presented in this podcast is your own responsibility. Our Family Office, Inc. And each of its representatives that participate in any podcast disclaim that any listeners should rely in any way on any of this content as investment, tax, legal, or insurance advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with their individual investment advisor and other financial professionals prior to taking any potential investment actions or making any insurance or tax decisions.