It's like a buzz, like an adrenaline kick, and it's actually amazing

In today's episode Edel Scally talks to Jason McKevitt about his love of history, and where it came from. 

What is Past Perspectives?

A Westmeath Libraries podcast where we chat with a variety of local historians. We'll learn what started them on the path towards history and they'll share some gems of our local history collection

Edel Scally
Good afternoon and welcome to our Westmeath local history podcast. And today we're chatting with Jason McKevitt. Jason, thank you for joining us this afternoon. First of all, I suppose the big question is what is it that has brought you to local studies, to local history, and what is it that maintains your interest?

Jason McKevitt
What has brought me to local studies and history is the fact that when I was growing up, I spent most of my life with mu granny and granddad, and they were two interesting people. So they gave me this love of history. And how did that happen? Because I suppose this is pre Sky television, you know, and my granny and granddad were interested in people from interesting backgrounds.
My granddad was a Dublin man and his family was originally from Louth, McKevitt is his surname. And his father, William McKevitt, was a Poor Law guardian for a South Dublin Poor Law Union, and he was with United Irish League back in the 1900s. So that was interest to me. And then when granddad came to Mullingar, he came with the Army and he served with Major Vivien DeValera.
So you can imagine my background. I come from this old Irish nationalist republican background and which became more into Fianna Fail kind of with the DeValera connection and then Granny's side. Granny came from a very dichotomous family because Granny's dad had served in the First World War in the trenches, and had served at the Somme. And he was captured as a prisoner of war in 1918.
And granny was an interesting lady. And that, you know, imagine this little Irish granny grew up in these little British Army houses in Clonmore, as her dad had survived the war at this stage. But then when Second World War broke out, or the Emergency, we called it in Ireland, Granny wanted to join the Irish Army but women couldn't join the Irish Army. So our father went down to a chap called Colonel Harris, who I believe lived down there in the Ballinderry area, and he advised and contacted a British army, and her and her two sisters went off and joined the A.T.S. in the North and during the Battle of Britain she was on an anti-aircraft gun in Coventry. So you could say my granny was in the army, my grandad was in Irish army, you know. And then near the end of the war, granny came back to Ireland to look after her father, who had an accident. He was a baker by trade, by the way, he had an accident in Mullaly's bakery where he worked in the town. So, granny, come back from the A.T.S, Auxillary Teritorial Service, which I believe the Queen had served in as well, within the British Army. Came back to Ireland after fighting the Nazis around anti-aircraft guns in the Battle of Britain, and met my granddad in the Coliseum Museum of Mullingar, this young Irish soldier. And the irony of ironies is here. My granny had seen more action than he did at this stage.

Edel Scally
It sounds like from day one your family have just been steeped in history and personal experiences as well.

Jason McKevitt
Personal experience, because then years later, Grandad went out to the Congo and he served at the Battle of the Tunnel. And this was just after Jadotville. So he went out with the 66th Infantry Battalion, and he saw a bit of action there. So, yes, steeped in history. So that's my background.

Edel Scally
And what is it about writing then? How did the interest in writing about local history? Because you've got the experiences, but was there a history of writing in the family or are you the first historian to write in the family?

Jason McKevitt
I am probably the first historian, but we're also an artsy family. On my mother's side, my mother was a Cavanagh and her father was a musician. And, on her mother's side was Dunne, and he was a musician. John Dunne was a musician. So I come from the arts side of the family. And so, I suppose for me, and my sister Theresa is a poet, and she had a book published there recently and, you know, a book of poetry.
So Theresa's into that, she goes by Tess McKevitt. And my brother Lar was a musician and he has played with Bagatelle, and he's played with the Furies. So they do the artsy thing. Now, poetry and me, I like poetry and I like music. So what can I do now? Look into history. So I came into history side. So that's where my art is. That's my craft. I would hope it's a craft. I hope people would view it as my craft.

Edel Scally
Do you do you find that? Do you feel more like you're the discoverer of facts, figures, mysteries? Is that your little talent?

Jason McKevitt
I suppose. I suppose if there's any kids listening this I feel like Dora the Explorer, you know, because I go out there with my little torch and I find things in the map and the swiper and all this. And I suppose it's one thing what people don't realize about being a historian, right? You've got to feel it in the heart. It's a passion, okay? Because when most people are maybe our on a GAA pitch, or maybe some people are down having a beer, people like me are found in the archives, trawling through depths of paperwork, finding out history. And there's this sort of nosiness there and we find out why did that happen. And you see, one thing about being a local historian is we need to challenge the master narrative. We'd like to see what really happened, the social side of things, what the small people did. We know what the great De Valera did. We know what the great General Michael Collins did, but what Mickey Murphy in Patrick St. do? Or what did Mary do down in Barracks St. So we like to know all that sort of stuff. And that's the inquisitive side of me.
And I just love it. I love finding new stuff. And then, like, every time it's almost like a drug. Because when I'm in research and then I find out something I get so excited. It's like a buzz, like an adrenaline kick, and it's actually amazing. And I could be in National Archives in Dublin, or I could be in Military archives, or it could be here in Westmeath County Library, here in Mullingar branch library.
And I find something and I go, wow, look at this that I just found.

Edel Scally
And when it comes to your research, could you be researching for months, years, what kind of work needs to go into a piece the historian writes?

Jason McKevitt
Yeah, that's a good question because it depends what you're researching, for instance. And I mean, let's say someone finds an old picture of a shop in Mullingar and the name over the shop for instance. But let's say where Ilia cafe is, I mean that if you're a proud Irish nationalist person. That is a very historic building to us that love our country, because, I mean, that was the home of the Moynihan's.
And that's Comhaltas The first words of Comhaltas, the idea of Comhaltas was right in that building there, you know, and I suppose if you're looking at something like that, let's say that building for instance, you said you would go, right, I need to find out more about that. And what I found out about a that building. And here's an irony for you. Now, actually, that building, you know, doing my research, because I want to find out more, not just about the Moynihan's but what was it before? Because those buildings are a couple of hundred years old. And what we find out is that, yes, you had the drawing room upstairs and above the shop where the Moynihan family lived, and that's where the idea and, you know, Eamonn Moynihan and Bean Ní Mhuineachain, this is where they came together, the concept of Comhaltas, and the concept of, you know, Irishness and how we would preserve our culture was actually in the drawing room in front of that the fireplace and the fireplace is still there now. I've been told, the same fireplace that they had the chat about book founding Comhaltas is now still there in Ilia Café.
But what's amazing here? Here's an amazing piece about that, I wanted to know more about. And it turns out that if you go probably 50 years previously, there was a family called Rogers owned it, and they were hardcore unionists.

Edel Scally
So complete opposite.

Jason McKevitt
They owned a drugstore there and a bicycle repair shop. Members of the church of Ireland community here in Mullingar, very well respected, but hardcore unionist, completely opposite of the building afterwards, you know the family. So we've Irish republicans in 1950 onwards, and before that we'd unionists. So that is just, you know, stuff like that amazes me. But you asked a question there, how long can it take? For instance, I'm looking at the history of the Collumb Barracks Mullingar. It's taken forever. You have moments of serendipity.
You have to be disciplined because I could go in there. I'm looking for a piece and finding a piece, let's say about a regiment that was based ther in, let's say 1860. And next thing, I'm checking through the microfilms here in the local history room and I spot something else. A little artcile right beside what I'm checking. And then I go off on another tangent because then I'm finding something completely different. Maybe I'm looking at oh the regiment was there, and then next thing there's a big thing oh the ball that happened in the gymnasium in the military barracks Mullingar, let's go look at this ball. What now? Who were the people there and who was that person there now? And why was he there? And then I go off on another tangent.
Because even with the barracks, then, it was through this little bit of research in 1850 that I found out, remember, the royal family was in the barracks there, Prince George of Cambridge. And we see the Prince William and Kate Middleton's son is also called Prince George of Cambridge. But the last time there was a Prince George of Cambridge, ...

Edel Scally
He came to Mullingar

Jason McKevitt
Yeah, there you go.

Edel Scally
You talk about, you know, passion and that for to be a historian, some people think that you have to be qualified to be a historian. I don't think you have to be. Do you think it's useful or is it really you need to have the passion. First of all, or the curiosity

Jason McKevitt
Well the biggest qualification to be a historian, especially local historian, is passion. Okay, I have the qualifications. I mean, I've level nine post-grad in all this. I've university education and I found university education is great because by doing that, it trains me of how to find stuff. As you know, if you go into the archives, you don't really know what you're doing or what you're looking for you could spend forever there and find nothing. Whereas when you're trained in the area, you know. Exactly. Let's say the famine, for instance, if I go on National Archives, if I want to find out a bit more, I know what to look for the outreach reports, you know, to find out, you know, these correspondences between maybe the local constabulary or the military or even people to the Viceroy to Dublin Castle.

So I know what I'm looking for when I want to find that stuff. Whereas I suppose if I don't have that training I want to find out about the famine, the first thing the archives will say is Where what? When? What what exactly are you looking for? Well, yeah, I want to find out what happened. And he's going right. So when you know you're saving time because any historian would tell you research is time consuming.
And you need to minimize that time because most of us work. But do you need a third level qualification? Okay, I have it. And I know others historians that have it, but not necessarily. A passion is the main thing and understanding, and a love for your area is the greatest qualifications you can have. As I said, university qualification that arms you with a bit more tools if you like.

Edel Scally
It helps you with the research tools, but to be a historian, if it's not in you...

Jason McKevitt
If it's not in you its not gonna happen. It won't happen. It's a passion. It's like being a musician. It's like being anything, if you don't have a love for music, you're not going to do too well. Like you won't sell many tickets. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And that's what it is for historians, it's a passion and it's even like me here, its a passion

Edel Scally
I can see it in you. You're getting lively. Yeah. When it comes to somewhere like the local history room here, how valuable do you think having something like this in Mullingar is to local historians, and even just to people who want to find out something about their the church or the graveyard in their area. Can you see there being any other location where they can get information?

Jason McKevitt
Well, I have to say the local history room here is so important because you've everything you need into one area. I mean, I mean, I'm just looking there. You have even a history of the Diocese of Meath. You have old maps, you have old newspapers here. You have secondary sources such as books. I mean, if you didn't have local history room, you were trying to source all of that, again that time consuming, you'd be going maybe to the Cathedral, to the diocese archives there, then you may be going up to the Examiner' office to find old the newspapers. Then you might be going there. You have this room, here it is all packed in. So for the researcher, for the historians its excellend. But most importantly, I mean, people like me are passing through life.
Most important, rooms like this is where the younger generation get a grá for this. By bringing in the school kids, by bringing them and showing them these rooms, showing this is your history. This is what happened. And it's all here. Like if you were little, let's say, even an 8 year old, and you said, okay, right, I'm going to tell you about the history of the Catholic Church here, in Mullingar in the diocese of Meath, but you have to go over to the Cathedral get that and then come back down. And I want you to find out about, when the cathedral was built in Mullingar. But you have to go to Examiner's office to find that in the archives. I don't know, I mean, the child after a while will go this is a great adventure, but after that Oh, I'm a bit bored here.
Whereas when you have it in one room, they can see it. You can actually you can go on an adventure within the room. You can actually, you can do time travel. This is like a time capsule here. And for people like me, we just love it. I mean, I love this room.

Edel Scally
Okay, just getting back to your writing, are you working on a couple of pieces at the moment? I'll assume there's short term, long term, or do you try to concentrate on one piece at a time?

Jason McKevitt
I try to give passion into one piece at a time. But there is a piece that the keep stop and hold, and stop and hold, that I'm working on. I suppose I was working on executions in Mullingar, both the military executions in 1923, when Michael Green and Luke Burke were the last executions in Columb barracks. But also I've been looking at maybe the last execution here where we're sitting here, County Buildings, here with you, Johnny Cronin in January 1886.
So I'm looking at that. So I'm writing a piece about that, hopefully for publication in the newspaper. I've also written a short history for Columb Barracks, a little history sign for when people pass the barracks that would see a quick history of the barracks, because we see the barracks there and people are still wondering. And now the tours have stopped because you know, other stuff's going on in the barracks.
It'd be nice for people who could see a quick history, a sign, especially for the kids going in and out. And again, I keep emphasizing that.
Long term what I am looking at is the history of Columb Barracks. This is, as I said, it's taken a while. I have a fair bit done, I suppose at the moment I have what you would call a master's thesis level done on this.
But there's more to do, because every time you open one door, every time, should I say you close one door another door opens in the barracks. And again, as I said, there are moments of serendipity. You think you know it all, and then you find some thing and go wow!

Edel Scally
When it comes to your writings. I think a lot of people think that if you're a local historian, you're only going to be writing books. But it sounds like you write like articles for newspapers, you write for websites, you write for signs. So to be a local historian writing, it's not just about producing a book.

Jason McKevitt
No, and even in modernity, what you'll find is it's about your podcasts. It's about your videos, like I have videos out there. And what I've noticed as well, and we've done it through Tidy Towns. I've done sort of, local history in a couple of minutes or a few minutes, let's say, because where I'd maybe be outside the Church of Ireland and I understand as a teacher myself, a universal design for learning differentiation, that sometimes people struggle with the written word.

So we have to look at other ways of getting the message across. So you're doing this the podcast, you're doing these videos. So let's for instance with Tidy Towns there. I realize that some people's train of thought, the attention span of a person. I mean, I could do a 20 minute video on executions in Mullingar, but after about five minutes people go, oh, that's alright, you know, and, you know, because attention span is where we've learned that maybe even in a TikTok type story that takes a couple of minutes, you know, no more than that.
Just get them going and bang. And we did one with the Church of Ireland, and we did with the cathedral. and we've done things like that where I'd speak a little bit of history and its like a little adventure where, you know, come across as though Let's go on this adventure. What was this building, and what we was that building?
So I suppose I'm always researching small little things as well. And it's not just about the written word. I love the written word. And of course, before I can do these videos, I have to have a script myself. I mean, I have to work with a storyboard, so it's, you know, but, but I'm saying that's, you know, you're looking at all this other type of modern type way of getting your point across as well.

Edel Scally
What do you think of the modern local history room, like here? Because yes, we have the books, we have maps, we have microfilm, but we also have the podcasts, we have the videos, we have the e-books that you can download. Do you think there's other ways we can go? I mean, like we're trying to digitize maps and stuff like that. Can you see that be more of a the future of local history? Being able to access stuff more, more quickly, more easily?

Jason McKevitt
Yeah. The digitization of stuff is so important. I mean, especially your microfilm here. I mean, at the moment here, like, I love looking at the Westmeath Guardian, and old newspapers and with microfilm you're taking down to reel, and it takes a while. And then you're rolling through the reel and then you're trying to find it, whereas if you digitize it, tThen you have something like, you know, Irish Newspaper Archive where you put in a word, a key word and bang, all these things appear. So digitization is importand. And even in maps it's important. But I'm also aware that while some of us like digitization some like hard copies as well. You know, and I like that as well. If I'm reading something... Now to anyone that's environmentalist now mightn't like me for this, but I kind of print off an awful lot of stuff so I can read it properly. I struggle reading for too long online. So I like to print off stuff to check for typos and check for stuff, and when I'm reading stuff, you know. So so yeah. So there's a place for everything.

Edel Scally
So local history is, like you do see it as being as many mediums as possible. Make it as open as possible

Jason McKevitt
You have to, I mean in teacher training you're taught it's universal design for learning. We all learn differently. I mean, I mean, we're kinesthetic learners, we're audio learners, we're visual learners. And that's the way history should be portrayed. I mean, you know, as I said, through your video, through hard copies, through everything, you know, but I think the most important thing is that people, especially young people respect history and respect the artifacts and respect local history rooms.
And even when it when they carry out research, make sure you don't bring in a biro, you know, bring in a pencil, don't mark stuff. You know, have that protection and dare I say it sometimes, if you're using old maps please wear gloves. Just protect these pieces. I'd be a stickler for that. You know, I really would be, because I suppose when I'm dealing with old artifacts, which most of the stuff sometimes can be, you know, the primary sources are definitely artifacts in my opinion, anyway.
And what I'm going to do, I respect them. I'm treating them like almost a person. They're giving me information, they're like a seanchaí. Okay. So I'm treating them with respect. And, you know, I think that's another thing that people need to be aware of is the respect for these articles, and these rooms and all that.

Edel Scally
This room, the local history room here in Mullingar, you've got a fair bit experience here. Is there any memories that you have from here that are that you still hold?

Jason McKevitt
Yeah, there are a few of them there? I mean, there's one day I mean, I'm sitting around here in about 3 or 4 different historians here, and we're all sitting around and I'm just thinking to myself, we all took a fit laugh. We're all here looking at microfilms and books around, talking to each other. It was beautiful day outside and we're saying, why aren't we in the town park? You know, just chillin? And here we are in a room researching, you know, and I suppose that's a funny thing. Another thing is these moments of revelation. You find out a local family, and then you find it maybe 150 years with maybe one of the local families was gentry in the town. And you're looking at what he owned in the town.
So I find that fascinating, I do. Anytime I come in here I'm quite excited. Believe it or not. I know some people'll go What? but actually, I am, because I'm always learning something new.

Edel Scally
Is it the discovery, the potential discovery that that always keeps you smiling?

Jason McKevitt
It's the potential discovery and then the discovery, because you'll always find something. And I think that's another thing that people need to realize. Yes, we're historians, we're trained in the area, we know quite a bit, but we don't know it all because because history is not definitive. We always learn something new every day, you know, and that's that's a key thing.
And so that's why we need places like this. So, so every time I come in there, I always find out something new.

Edel Scally
Well, there's one final question I need to ask you, Jason. Now, what is the one item that you would love to bring home? No, you're not actually allowed to bring it home, but that you would love to bring home. And it can be anything.

Jason McKevitt
Oh, I'll tell you what I want.

Edel Scally
Go on, what is it?

Jason McKevitt
I want the keys in the room. That's exactly what I want. Because I would spend the entire weekend in here. Do you know what I mean? And its not open weekends. But if I could get the keys to the room and you hand them to me, then that's what I want. And then I could come in here and I could just my heart's desire all weekend, spend my time there. And you know what's even better? There'd be no one around. So I could just take my time. So the keys. I want the keys of the room.

Edel Scally
Well that's great. Thank you very much, Jason, for joining us today. It has been wonderful speaking with you. Thank you.

Jason McKevitt
Thank you.