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Empathy to Impact is a podcast designed for educators dedicated to global citizenship education. We explore themes of sustainability, service learning, student leadership, and community engagement, empowering students to create a more just, equitable, and sustainable future.
While educators grasp the “why” and “what” of global citizenship, this podcast delves into the “how”. Through engaging storytelling and student voices, we provide authentic connections to curriculum, and showcase practical tools and frameworks that you can implement in your classroom.
By viewing learning experiences through the lens of Empathy to Impact, we can inspire students to take meaningful steps toward becoming global citizens and transform the culture of education in our schools.
Join us as we amplify the voices and stories of students who take ownership of their learning and make a difference in their communities.
This podcast is brought to you by Inspire Citizens.
Scott Jamieson: Welcome to the Empathy to Impact podcast. Very excited this week to be doing something a little bit different. This podcast is going to be kind of like a book club. I am joined by two students.
Scott Jamieson: Harshini and Jonah, who have both read a book that I read over my summer holiday, called Responsible by Jaimie Cloud, How to Live Well Over Time on Our Planet.
Scott Jamieson: Jaimie Cloud is a colleague and really a mentor to a lot of us who work in this space of sustainability and global citizenship. She's been doing this work for an awfully long time, and has a lot of really cool things to say. When we think about how we embed sustainable
Scott Jamieson: practices and sustainability education into everything we do in schools. And I'm really excited to get into this book with my two guests today, who I'm going to pass the microphone over to them to say a quick hello and introduce themselves.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So, hi, my name is Harshini, and I'm going to go into 7th grade at Unity Charter School in Morristown.
Jonah Kairawala: Hi, I'm Jonah. I'm going to 8th grade at Ridington Middle School.
Scott Jamieson: Harshini and Jonah, I am so excited to have you guys joining me today to talk about this really cool book. And my first question to get us started is, why?
Scott Jamieson: Why did you choose to read this book?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: I'm really interested in, like, helping our planet and sustainability, and this book is a really good book about, like, sustainability and how to stay sustainable, so I really liked it, and that's why I wrote it.
Jonah Kairawala: like, earlier this year, during the school year, my class went on a trip, because we're building a tiny forest in our school, and it was to the Project Green Schools conference, and Jamie Cloud was there, so, we heard her talk about her book and stuff, and we were ready… our whole class was already, like, into all, like, the environmental stuff, so… and…
Jonah Kairawala: once we heard Jamie Cloud's book, we decided that we would, like, get a bunch of the books and start reading it, and we all, like.
Jonah Kairawala: tried to get into the podcast, and I was chosen, so… I'm really excited.
Scott Jamieson: Pretty cool! I didn't realize you've actually met Jamie. We have never met in person, we've only ever met online, and I'm a little jealous, this is pretty cool. Tell me a little bit about this project, this tiny forest. I am intrigued.
Jonah Kairawala: Alright, so basically, it's… we have, an eco-ambassador program in our school, where,
Jonah Kairawala: We… and we just had this idea where we would make a tiny forest, because we saw this grant, $40,000, that you can plant a bunch of trees, and unlike other schools, that they thought they would just plant a bunch of trees on, like, the side of the sidewalk or something, we designated, like, a specific area, that we would plant a bunch of trees called a tiny forest, and before we… Tiny Forest was there, there was, like, a rusty old playground that was unused.
Jonah Kairawala: So,
Jonah Kairawala: we kind of, like, restored that, like, how it talks about in Jamie Cloud's book, Responsible, like, you take some… you take a land, and you give it a purpose, so we gave that land a purpose by making a tiny forest.
Jonah Kairawala: And it has 3 major zones. It has a Miyawaki zone, which is used… which we use the Miyawaki method, where we plant a bunch of trees, like, really close together, causing, like, some to grow faster, and
Jonah Kairawala: produce more nutrients. We also have a sensory zone, like, this is where students would come out, like, during the day to calm themselves down. And we also have a climate resilience and phenology zone, which, basically, we collect a bunch of data with our Arduino sensors, like air quality, soil moisture, all that stuff.
Scott Jamieson: And Jonah, how did you learn about all of this stuff? How did you become so knowledgeable on this topic?
Jonah Kairawala: I just went to, like… when I was in 6th grade, there was, like, this… I heard about the club, there was, like, an orientation, so I just came to it, and, our advisor, Ms. Freeman, she's really knowledgeable, and she taught us, like, a bunch about all, like, the climate change and all these issues, and basically, we are… the whole Eco Ambassador program, we just stay after school, like, and during lunch, we…
Jonah Kairawala: Bring ourselves together, and we basically just work on the project and research about it.
Scott Jamieson: That sounds awesome! I wish every school had opportunities like that. Harshini, what are you up to at your school? Are you guys involved in any similar projects when you're in school? I know you guys are on summer break right now.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: When we're… last year, when we were in school, we, like… so, basically, we planted a bunch of, like, native pollinators.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: like, New Jersey native pollinators in our school, like… like, in our school, like.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: like, behind our school, there's, like, a cemetery, but in between our school and the cemetery, we have, like, this piece of land, so we planted a lot of pollinators there, and we also made a rain garden to help, like, to help collect rainwater and help, like, help all the plants around the area grow. And our school is very into, like.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: learning outdoors, so we have, like, an outdoor classroom where students can go outside with their teachers and learn.
Scott Jamieson: I think I would like your school, too. That sounds really awesome. You mentioned native pollinators. Why did you choose native plants to the place where you live?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So basically, we wanted to attract, like, the native, like, pollinator animals to help, like.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: all the plants, like, in the area, so we… and we also didn't want to, like, bring, like, an invasive plant or, like, something that's, like, harmful to the environment, so we picked the plants that are, like, suited to our environment and that are supposed to be here, so…
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: It's like… I think…
Scott Jamieson: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's so cool that you guys aren't just learning about this sitting at a desk in the classroom.
Scott Jamieson: What makes it different when you're out there actually doing this work, when you're planting your different plants that you've researched and thinking about what those pollinators, what kind of things we want in our pollen garden there? And, Jonah, thinking about your mini forest as you do that research, but then you actually go out and do that.
Scott Jamieson: Why is that such an important component of learning?
Jonah Kairawala: I think it's really important because it really gets you active in it, and it doesn't… like, you're not just learning about it, you're actually participating in it, which makes you understand more about the topic. Like,
Jonah Kairawala: I always heard in class, like, plant native trees and stuff, but I didn't really understand why, but, like, once we went outside in the forest and, like, we saw how,
Jonah Kairawala: how Native…
Jonah Kairawala: tree species would, like, thrive, and it would help wildlife, and how invasive species, like, wouldn't help, and, like, we learned all these things. It shows that… shows you, like, how it actually helps the environment, and you're not just learning about it, because I feel like if you're just sitting in a classroom, and you're just, like, listening to a teacher talk, I feel like it's not the same as actually going outside and actually participating in, like.
Jonah Kairawala: Yeah, participating in it.
Scott Jamieson: For sure. Sorry, Harshini, can you add something to that?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: I completely agree with that, and also, like, when you're actually doing something, you can actually remember it, so, like, when we grow up later, like, we'll actually remember, like, these things, then we can actually do them again, and we can help the environment again and again, and it's really useful. So, like, because if you're just learning about it, there's a possibility that you can forget it. But when you're actually going outside and doing something that's, like, different, then you'll… then you'll definitely remember it.
Scott Jamieson: Beautifully said. I 100% agree. I think, too, when we connect to something that we care about.
Scott Jamieson: Thinking about an issue that's right in our own community. These are things right on your own school campuses, so they're real and relevant, and thinking about how we're making the world just a little bit more sustainable by taking action. Sometimes we can feel a little bit overwhelmed.
Scott Jamieson: By all the things that are going on in the world right now, the fires, and climate change, and the heat waves, and all these different things that we see in our feeds on social media. It can feel a little overwhelming, and it's really empowering to be able to take action and feel like we're doing something positive about it.
Scott Jamieson: I want to talk a little bit about mindsets.
Scott Jamieson: And author Jamie Cloud talks a lot about mindsets in the book.
Scott Jamieson: And there are mindsets for sustainability, but also mindsets for unsustainability. And I was wondering if you had ever encountered any of these unsustainable mindsets that the author's talking about in the book.
Scott Jamieson: Take your time, it's okay.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So, I think that, like.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: mostly, like, I don't think I've ever, like, met, like, someone who's, like, super unsustainable, that you can, like, like, like, like, I've probably met someone, but, like, it's not like…
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: it's not like… like, there… it's not like there are so many people that I'm like, oh my god, everybody around here is unsustainable. So, I'm not really sure about that.
Scott Jamieson: Jonah, how about you?
Jonah Kairawala: Yeah, same. I don't really know, like, someone that's that unsustainable, but I know, like, some people would think, like.
Jonah Kairawala: Invasive species, like, you want to plant something that looks really pretty, and maybe someone thinks that native species don't look as good in their yard, because, yeah, someone has said that to me before, like, at a conference we were at, they were talking about how they wanted to put, like, really pretty plants in their yard, but it didn't help the environment because they're not native.
Scott Jamieson: Jonah, I was getting some funny feedback on the microphone. Do you want to say that for me again? I think that's a really good point.
Jonah Kairawala: Yeah, so I was just saying that, like, I've seen many people that say, like,
Jonah Kairawala: Invasive species might look better, and they…
Jonah Kairawala: They look really pretty, and they're, like, colorful and stuff, but they're not good for the environment like native plants are. So, so, yeah, many people think that, but native species are better for the environment, which really matters.
Scott Jamieson: I agree. I think it's important to really kind of think a little more deeply about some of our practices, and there's a lot of little changes that we can make in our own lives.
Scott Jamieson: But I thought it was interesting how she talked about some of these unsustainable mindsets, like people who think there's no hope for the future, and think that all is lost, so you might as well just do whatever. Or other people thinking about, well, we're gonna run out anyway, so I want to make sure that
Scott Jamieson: I get as much as I can, or I get my fair share. And I've certainly, in my time, run into these kind of ideas, and this kind of thinking, and the kind of hopelessness that that leads to. And my worry there is that if we don't have hope.
Scott Jamieson: we become paralyzed. We don't think about acting. And it's so inspiring to see these projects that you're working on right in your own schools, right in your own community, and really building those sustainable mindsets, and that's so important in education today. And that leads me to my next question.
Scott Jamieson: What sustainable mindset do you most identify with?
Scott Jamieson: Jamie Cloud talks about different sustainable mindsets in the book. Was there one in particular that kind of jumped out and you said, that kind of sounds like me?
Jonah Kairawala: I think one that, talks about me and, like, what, my program that I'm in, the Eco Ambassador Institute, is, like, vision-driven. That, like, you have a vision, and you're driven by it, and you, like, build on that vision, and you actually make it a reality.
Scott Jamieson: I like that. Yeah, that's awesome.
Scott Jamieson: I think we have to be imaginative and creative to think about what a sustainable future is going to be like. What does it look like? What does it sound like? What does it feel like? We're really good about
Scott Jamieson: imagining post-apocalyptic or dystopic futures. We've got lots of books and lots of movies to help us with that, but we don't really think about what does a sustainable 2040 or 2050 look like?
Scott Jamieson: What's it gonna be like to live if we do all this work, if we collaborate and work together and work towards sustainable solutions as a global society? We talked about this before we were on the microphone, this idea that we're all in this together, and we need to work to be sustainable for the benefit of humans and
Scott Jamieson: all of the living things on our amazing planet. So, yeah, I think that mindset is super powerful.
Scott Jamieson: Harshini? What do you think?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: I completely agree with that, and I also feel like I have the same mindset.
Scott Jamieson: That's a good one, yeah.
Scott Jamieson: What makes you kind of lean into that one? How does that… how do you see yourself when you read that?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: I feel like… like, I like to, like, think about the goal, and then think about how I can get there. So, I feel like that's how it describes me.
Scott Jamieson: You guys sound like leadership material. If we can be thinking about that goal, right, where do we want to get to, and be able to think about all those steps we need to get there?
Scott Jamieson: I think that's such an important skill that you can transfer in so many ways as students. And I think you guys are just in grade 7 and grade 8, that's awesome that you're thinking that way.
Scott Jamieson: Another thing that author Jamie Cloud talks about in the book is the commons, and I've spoken to her a few times, this is something that often comes up in the work that she does, this idea of protecting the commons.
Scott Jamieson: She emphasizes this in this book.
Scott Jamieson: Why is that important? Well, first of all, what does she mean by protecting the commons, and why is that important for a sustainable future?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So, when she says protecting the commons, in my mind, I always thought that she meant, like, oh, like, the world and, like, everything, like, all the resources are things that all of us have to share, so we need to protect them, like, not just for us, but for everyone around us. And if we can't do that, then it'll harm everyone and everything.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So, protecting the commons is really important for sustainability, and I think she really tried to emphasize that, because it helps us understand, like, how to be sustainable, and, like, what are some practices we can use to, like, stay sustainable.
Scott Jamieson: Awesome. Jonah, do you have anything to add to that?
Jonah Kairawala: Yeah, kind of building off Harshini… what Harshini said, I agree that the commons is basically what we all have, and pretty much, like, all the resources in this world, and basically, if…
Jonah Kairawala: We have to protect those resources. Like, like we said earlier, we're all in this together, so we all have to work together to try and protect our world.
Scott Jamieson: Absolutely, really well said. I think, yeah, the commons are these things that we share. Thinking about fresh…
Scott Jamieson: fresh water, and clean air, and our natural resources, and all of nature that's around us that we can enjoy if we are sustainable. But if we are cutting down our forests, and if we are
Scott Jamieson: dumping our waste into places where it doesn't belong, and thinking about how we might reduce that waste to start with, and have a more circular economy. There's so many ideas that come up when we started thinking about how we might be creative in ways to protect the commons.
Scott Jamieson: And protect those for us, protect those for others, and generations into the future.
Scott Jamieson: Our First Nations think about borrowing the world from seven generations down the line, and I always thought that was such a cool philosophy.
Scott Jamieson: how we're just stewards of our planet, and we're just protecting it for our great-great-great-great-grandchildren. And I think that's a cool way to think about it. And I think we don't often think about that as often with big corporations and governments and profits, and trying to generate
Scott Jamieson: wealth, and I think there are ways to do that in a more sustainable way.
Scott Jamieson: Speaking of actions that we might take.
Scott Jamieson: What can an individual do to work towards a sustainable future?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So there's a lot of things that, like, one singular person can do to, like, help reach a sustainable future. But I think that mainly it's, like, you have to, like.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: You have to, like…
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: teach other people. Like, that's the main thing. Like, if other people don't know what's happening, then just one person isn't going to make that big of a difference. But if you can teach other people that they have to be sustainable, and that they have to help the world, then they'll… it'll, like…
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: it'll go into their mind, and they'll also, like, work with you. And then, that's how you, like, start something big. Like, every… like, you teach so many people, and then a lot of, like, everybody can, like, work together to help the world. And I think that's, like, the main thing that someone can do to be sustainable.
Scott Jamieson: I like that a lot. Yeah, if one person does something, that's awesome, something to be really proud of. But if we can share that work through a story, or maybe a podcast, and reach other people.
Scott Jamieson: And if we can convince 10 or 100, or a thousand people to make this change with us, and to live more sustainably with us, and create this sense of unity and belonging.
Scott Jamieson: around some of these things, and we don't have one person taking action. We've got a movement. And I think in the world we live in, and how fast information can travel, I think if we can be storytellers of sustainability.
Scott Jamieson: I think that can be really, really powerful.
Scott Jamieson: Jonah, what are you thinking?
Jonah Kairawala: I also agree that the most powerful thing someone could do is probably try to influence others, like, incorporate systems thinking, that if one part of the system changes, then other people in the system all follow it.
Scott Jamieson: Can I interrupt you again, Jonah? Can you start over? I'm getting some really funny feedback on your mic.
Scott Jamieson: Dude, It's alright.
Jonah Kairawala: So…
Jonah Kairawala: I think it's also important to, like, influence people, because that's the most powerful thing someone can do, is try to get others to help with them. So, you have to kind of think about systems thinking, like, if one part of the system changes, then the rest of the system will, like, follow and also change. So, basically, influencing others is the most powerful thing you can do.
Scott Jamieson: Yeah, systems thinking is something that Jamie Cloud talks about a lot in her book. Like, these are not easy problems. If they were, we would have solved them already. These are complex issues, and they exist within systems. So where can we sort of pull that string and have that impact elsewhere?
Scott Jamieson: And I work a little bit with the Institute for Humane Education, and they talk about there being no perfect solution.
Scott Jamieson: But we're looking for solutions that do the most good and the least harm.
Scott Jamieson: Because these are complex ideas. It's not gonna be a perfect solution. It's not a silver bullet solution that's gonna fix everything.
Scott Jamieson: But I think by being systems thinkers, like, that's such a good point to bring up, that we can identify where we can address a root cause of an issue, and to really have long-term, sustainable solutions. One other thing I might add is thinking about who else in our community is doing this work.
Scott Jamieson: You guys have connected with adults in your community.
Scott Jamieson: Whether it's the sponsor of a club, or whether it's seeing Jamie Cloud, or whether it's working with outside organizations to learn about native plants.
Scott Jamieson: Who can we partner with who maybe is already doing this work to really understand what our community needs, but also to think about how we might be able to learn from them and then be part of their action working towards a more sustainable future?
Scott Jamieson: Have you guys ever had an opportunity to work with another organization outside of your school, thinking about sustainability?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So, at our school, we had, like, this…
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: Like, last year, we had this… we partnered with this organization that was, like, in Morristown.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: And they, like, they, like, came to our property, and they did a lot of work with us, like, we did a lot of sustainability work, like, we… we collect… we started collecting, like, rainwater to water, like, our plants and things, and we also, like, they helped us, like, we built, like, a few, like.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: Like, we built some things to help our property and, like, the plants and things that are on the property. So, yeah.
Scott Jamieson: Beautiful.
Scott Jamieson: Jonah, how are you?
Jonah Kairawala: I also have, like, a few times that, like, people, like, partnered with us.
Jonah Kairawala: So basically, we… I talked about our tiny forest earlier. Basically, in the beginning of, like, the process, after we planned everything out, we had this big day called Planting Day, where we invited, like, all these people. We partnered with Watershed Ambassadors, we invited them all to our school, and it was basically a huge planting day. We had… and, we had media out, and
Jonah Kairawala: that's one way we partner with people, and also some of our sponsors that help sponsor the Tiny Forest, like, our funders, we partner with them, like Project Green School is where I saw Jamie Cloud, we partnered with them to… and we… yeah, we basically work together for sustainability.
Scott Jamieson: I am so inspired to learn that you guys are working on this
Scott Jamieson: actively in your schools. I think it's so cool. I think a lot of times, when we hear about education these days, it's not all positive stories, but you guys are doing such amazing work at your schools, in your local communities, and that…
Scott Jamieson: fills me with hope. I'm so thankful to have had the opportunity to meet you guys, and to share your story with others who are listening to our podcast. One last question before we wrap up.
Scott Jamieson: Who needs to read this book?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: So, I know that, like, in a lot of places, they're like, when they're teaching about sustainability, they're like, oh, like, they don't teach about, like, what you can do to fix it, they teach you about the problems. So I think the people who are being, like, like, they're losing hope by learning about these problems and things are the people who most need to read this book, because it can help inspire them to, like, continue to, like, help solve the problems, not just, like, think about, like, oh.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: Oh my god, there are so many problems.
Scott Jamieson: I love that. Yeah, we sometimes find ourselves guilty of… I like to call it admiring the problem, rather than taking that solution-focused mindset, and you're absolutely right. This book is a great way to kind of flip the table on that, and be really thinking about
Scott Jamieson: what we can do, and how we might be empowered to take action, and to work towards that sustainable future that we all want to live in. Jonah, how about you? Who do you think needs to read this book?
Jonah Kairawala: One of the points, like, one of the… I think one of the chapters was, it's not what the vision is, it's what the vision does. So I think people… people who want to make a change, who want to take action, should read this, because it shows how we can actually help, how we can actually make our world more sustainable, how we can…
Jonah Kairawala: Like, work towards our goal, and it's basically just…
Jonah Kairawala: For people who are ready to take action.
Scott Jamieson: I love that, too. I think that's exactly it. I think there are a lot of young people out there, like you guys, who are passionate about this work, who want to do something, want to make a difference, but they don't know where to start.
Scott Jamieson: And I think finding an adult in your school who might be interested in starting a club if you don't have one, or finding out if there are clubs that are dedicated to environmental sustainability. And this book provides a great springboard to think about not only imagining what we could do, but the how of that.
Scott Jamieson: Thinking about how we might design projects, how we might take action. And just like both of you talked about with your mindset for sustainability, how to have that vision, but also think about the steps we need to get from where we are right now to get there.
Scott Jamieson: Thank you both so much for taking the time to connect. I was really excited for this book club episode, talking about Responsible by Jamie Cloud, and thinking about what a young person's perspective might be.
Scott Jamieson: And I think anybody who lives on our planet and is thinking about sustainability, whether you are a young person or, like she says in the book, someone who cares about young people.
Scott Jamieson: This is a great opportunity to just feel inspired and feel there is hope for the future. There is a pathway to a more sustainable, joyful, equitable.
Scott Jamieson: future that we can all live together and enjoy. And I am super excited to have met both of you, Jonah and Harshini, and thank you so much for your time to share your thoughts and inspirations from this really cool book on our podcast today.
Scott Jamieson: Any final thoughts to share with our audience?
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: Well, I really think that we should all, like, try our best to be global citizens, and do our best to help solve, like, the problems. Because our job isn't just to fix the symptoms, which is what a lot of people do now, it's to find the main problem, and find a way to solve that. Because that's what helps us in the long term, and it helps us a lot more, and I hope you guys, like, all the listeners.
Harshini Lingam Muhilan: Well, like, in the future, I hope you guys can help us solve all those problems, and we can make this world a better place for the future.
Jonah Kairawala: Yeah, I agree that we have to work together to, make our vision a reality, and basically work everyone together, like how we said earlier.
Scott Jamieson: Oh, Jonah froze on me.
Scott Jamieson: Sorry, man.
Jonah Kairawala: I'll start over. I agree, and, I, like, we have to, be vision… everyone has to be vision-driven, like, we all have a vision, and we have to have an action, and we all have to work towards a goal, like we said earlier. We're all in this together, so we all have to work toward, helping sustainability in this planet.
Scott Jamieson: Awesome. Thank you both very much, and thank you to our listeners for tuning in to think about how we can all be responsible and be working towards a sustainable future.
Scott Jamieson: And… That's a wrap! We did it! I'm gonna turn off the recording here… You guys were awesome!