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What happens when churches prioritize productivity over people?
Doug Sauder, Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, has lived through the fallout of leader neglect—and the transformation that comes when soul care becomes a core value.
In this powerful conversation, Doug shares his journey from a culture of overwork and burnout to one of rest, accountability, and sustainability. He opens up about:
· Surviving the ripple effects of a senior leader’s moral failure
· Resisting the “Messiah complex” of nonstop ministry
· How Calvary Chapel restructured to prioritize Sabbath, family, and health
· Why sabbaticals are a game-changer for leaders—and how his own shaped his identity beyond achievement
· What it takes for boards and staff to cultivate healthy rhythms of work and rest
This is a hopeful, honest episode packed with wisdom for pastors, nonprofit leaders, and boards who want to protect their leaders, steward their people, and create ministries that flourish for the long haul.
About Doug Sauder:
Doug Sauder is the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, one of the largest churches in the U.S. He is known for his heart for families, his leadership in crisis, and his commitment to building a culture of health and soul care among leaders. Doug and his wife, Suzanne, have three sons and have served as foster parents to more than 50 children.
Additional Resources:
· Learn more about Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale
· PastorServe – Coaching & Soul Care for Leaders
· The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero
Creators and Guests
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
BTS S3 - Doug Sauder - Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] Doug Sauder: Every time there's a, some kind of explosion or crisis or scandal in a church, you can see it, you can see it in the giving, you can see it in the numbers, you can see in the outreach, all that momentum is lost. You know, it's not that good. Soul care can keep people from sinning, but it, it can help them address some of those issues they're blowing right past.
I look at this as one of the most important investments that we make.
[00:00:23] Ryan Gordon: Six day work weeks? Overlooked families? Burnout for Jesus? Pastor Doug Sauder from Calvary Chapel. Fort Lauderdale knows what it's like when leader care gets pushed aside and he's seen the cost, but he's also seen what happens when churches flip the script and build a culture of rest, accountability, and soul keeping.
At one point, Doug was asked, do you know who you are if you're not achieving for Jesus? That question has stuck with me. This is an honest, hopeful conversation that's packed with wisdom every leader needs. I think you'll be both challenged and encouraged. So let's dive in.
[00:01:02] Michael Martin: Pastor Doug, it's good to see you, my friend.
Welcome to the ECFA podcast.
[00:01:06] Doug Sauder: It's good to see you too, Michael. Good to be, good to be with you.
[00:01:09] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, hey, I just wanna take this opportunity to say thank you for your partnership with ECFA at Calvary Chapel, and then all that you've done here in the recent, uh, days to also help us champion this new leader Care standard.
We've so appreciated your encouragement.
[00:01:25] Doug Sauder: Yeah, it's important work and yeah, we're so glad to be a part of it.
[00:01:29] Michael Martin: Yeah, well we, this is our Behind the seal podcast. So we go behind the scenes as we're talking with, uh, members and just others that are part of the ECFA community. And, you know, one of the things that's been really special to me in the rollout of this new standard and Calvary Chapel specifically, is you've helped really be an important voice in moving forward with this standard.
Um, is the way that you've been able to share so authentically about one of the reasons why. You believe this is so important and are helping champion it is because as a church over a decade ago, there was a season where you experienced the impacts of the lack of leader care. And so, you know, that, uh, testimony has been a great encouragement to our team and just love to have some conversation with you about that.
Um, maybe starting there, what are some of the key lessons that you felt like you learned, uh, coming out of that season where there was, uh, the impacts of the lack of leader care?
[00:02:26] Doug Sauder: Yeah, it was actually 11 years ago this week. Or like an on, like, it was like a bomb went off. You know, our, our senior pastor, our founding pastor, you know, went through a moral failure and it, it sort of like rocked the entire church and it really brought.
To the surface surface. Um, you know, on the outside things were going amazing. I mean, um, I mean, campuses were being planted, ministers who were being formed, uh, you know, stadiums, full people, thousands of people given their life to Christ and, you know, it, it all looked great. Um, but, you know, when, when a pastor goes through moral of failure or when other leaders [00:03:00] are really, you know, just.
Pushing away all these emotional and spiritual like checks and just keep, they just keep going. Uh, something's gotta give. And we experienced that in sort of a ripple effect, um, 11 years ago. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I remember first coming to Calvary Chapel and I loved it because it was so, uh, vision driven and mission driven, and everything was done with excellence.
And, you know, I came from churches that either weren't outreach oriented or didn't care about excellence, and this had both. So it was so. It was, so it drew me in and it sort of became intoxicating. I mean, I think for me, I, when I first started working here, I was working 60 hours a week and we, we came from that, you know, generation X where you, you know, you work hard, you suck it up, you do what's right, especially 'cause it's for Jesus.
And so. There's so much good work to do that I found myself just pouring myself into it, not because the organization demanded it of me, just because I couldn't help myself. That's probably the best way to say it. And uh, and, and even in my own personal life as a family pastor, helping put families together, doing marriage counseling, uh, you know, there were moments I was missing in my own marriage and my own family because of my work in the church.
Um. Yeah. It's like Messiah- messiah Complex, you know?
[00:04:19] Michael Martin: Yeah, sure. Um, well, intoxicating, that's such an interesting way to put that, um, and how things can look a certain way on the outside, uh, but only for so long. Right. Isn't that interesting? Mm-hmm.
[00:04:35] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, you know, the generation that the, the boomers and the Xers were all like, you know, burnout for Jesus, like if you're gonna burn out, flame out, like you, you get leave it on the field, right?
So we were, I was raised that way. Um, and so the idea of Sabbath or rest, you know, we'll get around to that when the work is done. The problem is the work is never done, so, so you can get into the grind and, you know, you can lose yourself. I mean, I remember a specific conversation with my wife. So I'm, I'm the family pastor, so I'm supposed to be a model for family and marriage.
And, you know, my mom, my, my wife and I were foster parents, and so I'm calling her on the phone. This is my first year of work and I'm like, okay, Wednesday night is church. Thursday night we have a, a leadership meeting. Friday night we're doing a vision cast. And I just sort of laid out the weekend. She, she asked me this question, um, Hey, so when are you gonna see your boys this week?
And she just let it sit. It was such a convicting question because I had left no room for my own kids. Um, and my wife's good like that. She's a prophet. She, she has a way to, you know, ask a question in the right way. And it sort of just stopped me in my tracks and I was like, yeah, I need to cancel. Few things.
And so, because I have a good wife who is a prophet, uh, who knows how to sort of re reorient me, uh, I was able to make some of those adjustments on my own. But I, I realize that not everyone has that type of person in their life, or the person who's gonna ask the hard question. [00:06:00] So, um, I, I, I, I, I think when I reflect on some of the people who worked at Cal for during that season, um, I remember getting a few phone calls, five, ten, fifteen years post.
They would say like, I loved working at Calvary. I loved the the we. We got so much done, so much life change, so much transformation. But then they would sort of reflect and say, but I also felt a little bit used like, like no one thought about my own life in the process. And it wasn't like we weren't doing staff devotions or one-on-ones or praying with people about their marriage and family.
It was just no one ever said It's time to go home. And so it's sort of like the, the gravitational pull of ministry just kept sucking everybody in. We call it the vortex.
[00:06:45] Michael Martin: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, man, there's so much in what you just said, and I'm curious too, if you have advice because, uh, and we'll get to a moment how really the culture at Calvary Chapel ended up shifting, but at the time, those steps were very countercultural, and so I'm sure there's those who are listening who can relate to exactly the same kind of experience that, that you were in.
What advice would you give to those leaders who. In order to prioritize things like. Like you said, family, healthy, being healthy as a leader, uh, what advice would you have for them in taking, uh, some counter-cultural steps?
[00:07:26] Doug Sauder: Yeah, so we, we had to do some of that looking in the mirror because of a, of a crash.
So hopefully, you know, you can take some of the things that we learned, but when we went through our crash and we, we had to examine everything again, and we basically spent a year asking our staff and just praying through what, what do we want our values to be? And, you know, one of the first values that all of our staff unanimously picked was soul keeping.
We, we need a culture of soul keeping, where we prioritize our own Sabbath, we prioritize our own, you know, family and, and time away from work and time alone with the Lord. And that needs to be a priority. It needs to be part of, uh, how we do our reviews. It needs to be part of how we live our lives. And so, so as, as the new leader.
Feeling the weight of that. I, I would just constantly say to our staff, you know, who we are is more important than what we do. So I would say it over and over. I say it all the time and, and hopefully by repeating it and by modeling it and making it a key value and the value that our, our staff picked, um, we were able to prioritize it in all of our weekly meetings and our, you know.
Our assessments, our, you know, annual assessments and those sort of things. Um, and that, that's been helpful. And then you gotta, uh, obviously invest, uh, time and money and, and effort into, into making the structure support that vision, right? Because if you just have the value on the wall, it's not gonna mean a lot.
So we've had to invest in making that true, uh, for our staff.
[00:08:59] Michael Martin: Yeah. And what was [00:09:00] one of the greatest challenges? So you talked about in a, in a way it sounds like there's kind of this overwhelming consensus of we needed to move towards soul keeping as a value, but what were some of the challenges in getting there?
[00:09:13] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I mean, some, some of them are financial because you have to invest. You have to invest in saying, okay, so do we have enough? You know, enough time for people when, when they have a child to stay home with their child. Uh, you know, and we're gonna give, you know, more extended benefits to people who have children.
We're gonna give, um, another week of vacation, we're gonna have a blackout dates at church, so we're gonna get less done. So as a, as a person who's like all into stewardship, like. It felt a little bit negligent, maybe sometimes a little bit lazy, like, are we lowering it too much? Um, and so that I, I had to wrestle with that because, um, you know, I, I get to work every morning like 7 15, 7 30.
I mean, just, you know, uh, because it's just, it's what you do. You, you, you work hard for Jesus. And so I, I've had to, I've had to sort of toggle between how do we work hard and arrest well. Um, because, you know, again, as a Gen Xer, you look at maybe the millennials or Gen Zs and they're like, you know, I, I want balance my life.
But for some of them that means working 30 hours a week so they can be with their family and do all their things. I'm like, well, that's not it either. Um, so we, we didn't wanna swing too far. Um, so how do we work really hard? Uh, especially during, like Easter's coming up. We're gonna work really hard. We're gonna work a lot of hours, but then the week after Easter, we can cancel a lot of things and arrest with our family.
So we've, we've adopted that language. We're gonna work hard, and then we're gonna arrest well.
[00:10:36] Michael Martin: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really good. So, uh, yeah, I'd, I'd love to kind of double click too into something you said as somebody who cares a lot about stewardship. Um, what was ultimately, uh, or maybe it's more than one thing, what were some of the factors that ultimately convinced you that, uh, moving at a healthy pace, like is good stewardship even from a financial standpoint?
[00:10:57] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I mean, just. If you just look at the loss of momentum and the loss of all that we had with a, a pastor whose life blew up, uh, you can see it, you can see it in the giving, you can see it in the numbers, you can see in the outreach. Every time there's a some kind of explosion or crisis or scandal at a church, all that momentum has lost.
And if, if you had just, you know, it's not that good. Soul care can keep people from sinning. But it, it can help them, you know, address some of those issues they're blowing right past and potentially, you know, prevent something like that. So, but I, yeah, I, I look at the loss of momentum, the loss of trust, uh, starting over in so many ways that if that wouldn't have happened, um, I think Calvert would be in a different place.
Um, but, um, we can, we can only, you know, we can only, we can't go back, but we can go forward. So I, I look at this as one of the most important investments that we make.
[00:11:53] Michael Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I'd echo that. And so much of what we've seen at ECFA too, um, there is [00:12:00] certainly a huge financial impact, uh, on a lot of these things as well as trust.
Um, big part of why, uh, even as our board and, and really it's the ECFA membership we talk about all the time. Really the heroes of this story kind of championing this idea of there is a connection between leader care, finances, trust. It's important enough to elevate to a standard. So I appreciate all that you shared related to that.
Um, maybe just even taking, uh, one or two steps back to as. You just reflecting on now, like you said, 11 years kind of in the rear view mirror, uh, what were some of the greatest impacts, uh, that you did experience first, kind of speaking from a church standpoint, and then I'd love to also get your take just personally, like you mentioned being a family pastor on staff, but starting with the church, like what were some of the, the real key impacts that you feel like you all experienced as a result of, uh, not having, uh, soul keeping, let's just say, or leader care as a priority?
[00:12:59] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I think, um, you, you know, you, you have all these young, not not just young people, but when people start at a church, they, they almost wanna prove themselves. And I think, you know, I had a leader walk up to me the first week of my EM employment, and I wasn't a pastor yet, and he just said, so resist the temptation.
That they did not make a mistake by hiring you. And it was like such a simple idea, like you are gonna, I know your tendency, your tendency is you wanna, you wanna make sure they, they feel like they did the right thing when they hired you. So you're gonna work hard, you're gonna go above and beyond and you're gonna try to prove yourself, but that's not the way, uh, that you can thrive in ministry.
But always trying to prove yourself and by working hard, so, so I think. In a, in a, in a vision driven organization where everyone's working hard and you have great leaders, you just, you just tend to sort of go with that gravitational pull. And, and so your, your marriage is gonna suffer. And, and you know, we found a lot of people had sort of sporadic accountability, uh, accountability that, that didn't reach all the way into their personal life.
So, so for example, um. If someone asked me, Hey, how are you and your wife doing? Oh, that's one question. I could, I could, I'm an optimist. I'm a seven on the Enneagram. I could, I could make that sound really good. Oh yeah, we're doing great. Yeah. We had an argument the other day, but if someone calls my wife, it's a whole different story.
And so there, there was no, there was no process past the one-on-one, whatever that person told you. So we, we said to our leaders, you know, you know, post this crash, like if your wife should have the phone number. Have one person to call if your thing, if, if something's not going well at home and you should invite her to make that phone call.
And that sort of changes the game because then it's not, the accountability narrative isn't how you think it's going. It's actually how your wife or, or someone in your life thinks it's going. And I think, so we never had any of those connections. We never encourage people to think about it in that way.
[00:15:00] We just said, Hey, you know, work hard. You're responsible for your own. So to rest and have accountability, it was very vague. It was very unstructured and there was no support around it. So we had no counselors we could refer to, um, the, the people that you were approaching were your bosses, so it maybe didn't feel safe.
How do I raise my hand and say I'm working hard and my, and my wife and I are struggling in our marriage, or, um, I dunno how to communicate with my, my kids. So the people that were spiritually leading, you were also your bosses, which created a lot. Just a lack of, I don't know if I can go there. It doesn't feel safe.
So those were some of the things that we just didn't have in place. Um, and, and the effect was, yeah, people burning out, people leaving, feeling used. Um, even though there were a lot of great memories, um, and I don't think this is true just of CI think it's true of any sort of megachurch or any type of church that's just, they're, they're grinding, they're burning.
Church planters, same thing. These, I've heard these stories over and over and over again.
[00:15:57] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, um, yeah, I appreciate all that you shared there. And just as the culture has shifted, I'm kind of wondering about the flip side of the coin. Like what has that impact been like, uh, you've, you shared kind of a lot about even the relationship with your wife and your family.
Um, maybe speak to that, like as the culture has shifted, how have you seen that change things with, even within your family?
[00:16:23] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I mean, we, we have a, a board member, typically the chairman of our board, but another board member who will meet with me once a year and sort of ask me all the questions. Um, and, and that, that's a, that's a new thing.
Um, one of those board members will also call my wife and say, is everything that Doug said true. And so we have people checking up on me and on her. So there's a good sense of, I have a, we have accountability at this level, uh, of friends that I've known for 20 plus years. But we have a board that's now.
The questions of the, of the team around me. How is Doug at work? How is he leading? Um, our lead team and our board sort of, uh, meet together on a regular basis. So there's a lot of freedom of exchange, a lot of more transparency, uh, for any issues that would happen, uh, financially, legally, ethically, morally, morally.
So that bringing it all into the light has been helpful. And then we, we also create a, a position of a staff pastor, uh, whose role is to, uh, this person doesn't have any responsibility in the organizational chart other than to sort of pastor and shepherd and care for the staff. And he's been charged with, you know, also creating a list of, of organizations, uh, that.
We refer people out to local counselors, organizations like Pastor Serve, you want, uh, coaching. We can provide you safe, confidential, soul care resources outside of this ecosystem where you can be yourself. And all we, all we ask is at the end of that six month or nine month investment, that that person that's coaching you gives us your.
What the sort of overall assessment so we can help continue to, to lead you. So it's, [00:18:00] it, it's safer, it's more confidential and, and we've, we've had to invest in a fund that allows, uh, that those counseling, coaching services to take place. So it's at the board level, it's at the staff level, and, uh, we, we continue to try to find ways to really help our staff.
[00:18:15] Michael Martin: Yeah. I love that you all are doing that. What, yeah. What has been the reaction of not only your staff, but also the family members, uh, of each of those staff members? Like what are some of the reactions that you see?
[00:18:30] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I mean, we see a lot of thank yous. I mean, we, you know, we, you know, one of the things that we do just, you know, intentionally is we, we give us, um, our licensed ministers and pastors, you know, a, a bonus every year that we, we, we put directly into their 4 0 3 b, their retirement.
And we basically say, uh, we don't just care about you. We care about your future. So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're not giving you just a paycheck. We're investing in, um, we, we, my wife and I, we write letters to all of our. All the children of our pastors for their birthday every year. Wow. And wow. Just those little things.
Those little things, those, those little things are like, thank you for caring for my family. Thank you for caring for my future. Uh, we put our board, put a sabbatical policy in place. We got this from actually another church. As we were talking about sabbatical. Calvary Chapel never had the idea of sabbatical, so we had to learn from other boards and other pastors.
And so now we have a sabbatical sort of policy every, every seven years, a leader, depending on what level of the organization they're, uh, will, will have the opportunity to go on sabbatical. So they get a sabbatical coach, our staff pastor, and they meet with a husband and wife. They talk about what they hope to accomplish and they, they debrief them after it's all over.
And, and the wives and. Families are like, thank you for caring for our souls, because, you know, some of these guys worked in ministry 30, 40 years and never had a sabbatical. Never. The whole idea was sort of foreign. And so yeah, those are, those are things we've invested in and, and the families are grateful, um, just that we care for their souls.
[00:20:02] Michael Martin: That's so awesome. Yeah. Speaking of the pastors that have gone decades, uh, having not experienced this, I'm sure there's some that find it actually hard to accept. So how do you, uh, how do you, how do you, uh, manage that? And I don't know, maybe you're able to, 'cause like you said, you had to make some of those shifts as well to be able to receive it.
But
[00:20:22] Doug Sauder: Yeah, so I was not the first person to take a sabbatical. We had like three or four leaders that were just, they were exhausted, so they got it first. So I, I was like a third year. And I was sort of like, I, again, I was raised in the idea, like, let everyone go first. I'll go at the end and, and, and finally you're like, oh, a couple of our leaders, like, you have to go because you have to show them that if you don't do it, they're never gonna do it.
So, so I had a sabbatical coach, uh, from pastor Serve, and he said, you know, Doug, your whole life, you know, he sort of heard my whole story. Your whole life you've been serving, working, you know, doing all these things and you've never, you've never stopped working for Jesus since you became a Christian. So the question is.
Do you [00:21:00] know who you are if you're not achieving for Jesus? And I said, I dunno. He said, well, you're about to find out. And so, uh, those three months, I didn't, I mean, I, other than being a Christian, I didn't talk to a group of people more than three or four people in a room. And, and honestly, it, it, it was really, really good.
I mean, um, I, I, I didn't, you know, I didn't lose myself. I actually, I actually came. To just be in the quiet with Jesus and just be okay with who I am as Doug, not Pastor Doug, in incredible, incredibly new ways. And so for me, it was like life giving and refreshing because on my way into sabbatical, like the month before sabbatical, I, I was mentally fried.
Uh, um, my wife and I described it this way. We, it was hard for us to laugh or cry. Like we were mentally and emotionally sort of just, just fried. I don't dunno how else to say it because I, maybe it's 'cause we knew the sabbatical was coming, maybe because we'd worked so hard to get there. But we were grinding, grinding, grinding.
There was a lot of things that happened right before the sabbatical. So like the day of the sabbatical, I just got, my wife and I, we had a separate places where we did retreats and I just, I couldn't drive fast enough just to, to get to solitude. Um, and so I was able to share that with my staff. Our staff as well, like guys.
I didn't think I needed a break all this time and this month reminded me I need this break desperately. So that, that whole process was, was really good for
[00:22:25] Michael Martin: us. Yeah. Well, since we're there, I'd love to, yeah. If you could unpack a little bit more for us about Yeah. Your sabbatical experience, you know, how long was it?
What types of things I know for each, uh, you know, pastor and situation, uh, it needs to be tailored a little bit differently. But yeah, talk to us a little bit about that, especially since you said it was so impactful for you.
[00:22:46] Doug Sauder: Yeah, originally the sabbatical for me was two months, and for some of our leaders was more like six weeks and then four weeks to descending down.
They could match it with their vacation. So we've got 30, 30 pastors and all serving sort of different levels of pressure and different SI size leadership roles. So for me it was two months and then Jimmy Dodd from Pastor Serve came down and talked to my chairman of the board, said. It's gotta be three months minimum.
This is way too short. So he sort of at the last second sort of, uh, you know, increased. And I, I was initially resistant, like, I don't need three months. Um, but I'm glad that Jimmy talked to our chairman. I'm glad our chairman was like, I, I agree. And so our board's been super supportive. So, uh, we basically let our congregation know.
I let our congregation know six months in advance, Hey, this summer Suzanne and I are gonna take a sabbatical. So they didn't feel like it was a crisis. Every time we had a sabbatical before this, it was a crisis of some kind. Right, right. At least for a public leader. Like, so, hey, we're planning this. Uh, so we planned our leadership, we planned who was gonna be the chief of staff when I was gone, so there's a lot of prep time in who, not just who's gonna preach, who's making the final call.
So I don't get a call. On, on topic or issue. And so we were able to set our leadership team up, let our congregation know the week before sabbatical, all of our, our elders and board members came and prayed over me in front of the [00:24:00] entire congregation. So they were with us on it. I would say I prerecorded like a monthly update to the church.
Uh, so they could hear from me once a month while we were gone. And, uh, and then our sabbatical coach basically sat with my wife and I and said, okay, what do you wanna get outta this? He helped us create a time that was just alone, like a, a solitude retreat from my wife and I that was 48 hours, completely separate all by ourselves in a quiet place.
Uh, for me, I read through, uh, 35, 36 years of journals that I'd written. Uh, so I just went on my whole journey with Jesus since I was 18 and all by myself at the lake. Wow. And, um, it was amazing. It was like I listened to my 20-year-old self and, uh, and now, you know, I was in my fifties, so you, you, it's, it's amazing how much you're like, Ooh, that was a little obnoxious, but, oh, I, I, I lost some of that.
I wish I could get that back. So you go on your whole journey with Jesus and, and just know that every step along the way he's been with you. And so just, I became more like Doug, not the, the pastor, the father, the leader. I became Doug, the son. Uh, the child of God. And that was what that solitude thing was for me.
Just defragmenting all the stuff and saying, if all this is gone, who am I stripping it down to? Just my relationship with God, uh, uh, as a, as a son. So after that, we had, uh, some time, all my guy friends came to the lake house. All her girlfriends came to her, her site, and just kind of hanging out with old friends that knew us even before I was Pastor Doug.
So, longtime friends, super grounding for me. And then we went, uh, uh, backpacking and hiking in Switzerland and just had fun where we laughed and cried and ate some great food, saw some beautiful things, and then we just had different moments, uh, a vacation with our kids. Uh, but just quiet time, just downtime reading books.
I, I must have read like 15 books and not related to ministry, not related to leadership. Um, you know, just a biography of Orville and Wilbur Wright. Who, who are these crazy people? And, um, and thinking about dreaming and sort of, sort of like that, that part of my brain that was just sort of stunted, just making all the decisions.
I was able to freethink. Um, and I told my wife, uh, for the three months ago, I don't wanna make any decisions in, in the next three months. 'cause I wasn't, I wasn't just from preaching, I was more burnout from making decisions. So don't ask me what I want for lunch. Don't ask me where if you can make most of the decisions.
I want, I want relief from decision making. And so that was probably the biggest relief for me in those three months. I didn't make a lot of decisions at all, so
[00:26:42] Michael Martin: That sounds awesome. Now, how many, or how long ago has it been since you were on sabbatical? So a year
[00:26:48] Doug Sauder: and a half.
[00:26:50] Michael Martin: A year and a half. Okay. And in that time, I'm just curious, you know, how have you been able to take some of, like what you said, it was such a transformative experience too, of [00:27:00] just remembering Okay, Doug as son.
Right. Um, and just some of those different things, like how have you been able to kind of take that sabbatical experience with you, um, in this last year and a half, even after say the sabbatical is over. Has that been a challenge or? Uh,
[00:27:18] Doug Sauder: not, no. I mean, there, there's always, there's always challenges because there's always things.
Um, but, you know, one of the things that is the most sort of enlightening is, uh, when you come back to the church after three months, everything has gone on without you. So I say like, sabbaticals, like practice dying. You're gonna die one day and the church is gonna go without you. And they're gonna say, Doug, who?
Mi Michael? Who, like, it's gonna go on without us. And so when you come back and you realize, eh, they didn't, they didn't need me. Then you don't have to jump back into doing all the things you were doing before. 'cause other people were doing them. So one of the most instructive things my sabbatical coach said to me is, don't, don't have any regular scheduled meetings for the first two weeks.
Just walk around and see who, who, who rose up into those leadership spaces. Then don't go back in that room and take the leadership role. Let them lead. And so I, our lead team meetings, I don't lead anymore. I sit back and I let our chief of staff lead them before I was leading them. Now he leads them, uh, you know, there are certain meetings I was in before.
Now I delegated that to someone else. And so I'm, I'm all of a sudden get 10 or 15 hours back. Um, I, I, I used to work six days a week. For the first 10 years I worked six days a week. Now I, I work five days a week, um, and I have a day where I only come in for an hour or two. And so in my mind at the beginning I was like.
This organization needs me six days a week. I can't take, I can't take two days off Now. It's like they, they, they got along with me without me serving any days of the week. And so I'm, I'm gonna take another day off. So, so better rhythm for me. Uh, more leadership opportunities for other leaders. Now those are some of the long-term benefits, uh, for me.
[00:28:53] Michael Martin: Yeah, sounds like a win-win. That's great. Um, how about in addition to sabbatical? 'cause you know, leaders only get those opportunities every so often, right. Um, what are some of the other things that you're doing just kind of an ongoing basis, whether it's daily or weekly or maybe monthly, just different rhythms to continue to maintain, uh, healthy a, a healthy value as a leader?
[00:29:18] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I mean. You know, Rick warrant sort has a thing like divert daily, withdraw weekly, abandon annually. So I would try to think of it in terms of that. Like every morning I try to wake up early and go outside because I connect with God outside. Watch the sunrise, listen to the birds sing. You know, I listen for the Dawn Chorus every day.
So if you wake up in the dark, you'll listen for the first bird to sing. And it's a reminder that the bird's brain is this big, but he, he sings or she sings in hope that the sun's gonna rise. So it's a great exercise in hope. This is a new day with New Mercy. So I, I try to wake up with sunrise outside and just, um, feel appropriately small in God's big world, but seen and known and loved by God.
So [00:30:00] most of that's just quiet. It might be, um, elective 365. It might be just quiet time, but the quiet time's very important for me. Um, and then, you know, weekly I've, I've, I've been practicing Sabbath, um, and, uh, trying to get better at it for the last couple of decades. Uh. You know, and, and Monday for me is my Sabbath.
And so if you look at the early days of me at Calvary, um, I would answer my phone on Mondays. I would do emails on Mondays. I would answer text on Mondays. And so I never really had a mental time off. And so Pete's CRE has been super helpful in those, you know. Embracing your limits, embracing Sabbath, and just pushing everything outta this 24 hour period of time where like, I'm not gonna pay bills, I'm not gonna answer emails, I'm not gonna write sermons, I'm not gonna handle calls unless they're at this level of crisis.
And so I've learned to say from Sunday, when I get home from preaching until Monday evening, I'm not doing any kind of work as much as possible. It's family time. I wake up every Monday, I play basketball. I go out to coffee with my wife. I read a book. Um, you know, sometimes I take a nap, you know, just giving yourself permission.
That was the hardest thing for me, giving myself permission to embrace the gift of Sabbath that God's given me. And then, and then, uh, on an annual basis, my wife and I, we, we, we live by our calendar. So we, we look at our entire calendar and we process, when are we getting away as a couple, uh, what are some ministry things we can do together?
Um, what are we doing with our kids? And we plan out, um, most of our year, and we look at that calendar every month just to, to course correct. So we're, we're probably better at our annual rhythms than we are at our weekly or daily rhythms because if you don't. The church will, the church will drive your life, and that's, that's no way to live.
[00:31:56] Michael Martin: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. For sure. I appreciate Doug and what you shared that, um, there's a sense of like, none of us have arrived yet. It's, it's been a process for you. It's something that's not like, um, yeah, it's been a real practice. It's not something, it's like, okay, I made a decision and the next day, like everything's all the way it should be.
Yeah. So, yeah, talk about that. 'cause I think there's some leaders who, if they're making these shifts. They might say, oh my gosh, this feels daunting. Or if I don't get it perfect right away, or if I'm not all of a sudden in this like, magical place of health, like something's wrong. Talk about what that's been like for you.
[00:32:33] Doug Sauder: Yeah. I, I think, you know, and again, I'm remembering Pete Scazzero's book, the Emotional Healthy Leader, and he talked about practicing Sabbath, just the idea of practicing, which means you're, you're not gonna always get it right or you're gonna get better and better at it, and you're gonna fail and you're gonna try again.
So, I mean, I, I remember I'm talking about like a decade of. Practicing and not doing great, knowing it's the right thing, knowing I should, but feeling the, the, the urgency of the moment and saying, I, I have to help. It, it, [00:33:00] you know, and, and then someone gave me like questions like, does this, does this have to happen?
Do you have to answer this today? Is there anyone else who can do this beside you? And so as I began to think through, like, yeah.
It's a crisis, but I don't have to show up. Someone else could show up on this day. I can, I can show up the other six days, but today someone else could show up and learning how to, how to let that go. That, you know, it, it has to be me or I'm the best one to do this. Because if, if, if you're a driven person and you, and you have that kind of like, Hey, I, I, I'm the best person to show up here, you'll burn out and.
So I, I think that that's part of my, I think the other thing I recognize is when you take, when you say yes to too many things, you're about 80% present in every moment. And I felt that before where you're like, I, I think I made two more appointments today than I was, that was probably past my limits. So I showed up everywhere.
I wasn't fully present anywhere because my mind was so fragmented. So if I just reduced my load by two meetings a day, I could be fully present. I could have prayed before I go into the meeting. I could be looking and seeking for, oh, that person looks sad or angry, or that person needs prayer. But if you're just, if you're going back to back, to back to back, you don't have time to sense.
What God is saying or what people need. You're just, you're just functioning. And so I think Sabbath gives me a chance to reflect on my week and even some rhythms during the week, and you can ask the people that work around me. I don't always get this right because again, gravity pulls me back to, to, to, you know, maximum capacity.
Um, but again, my, my wife is a great, um, she's a great coach. Partner in helping me learn how to rest, and I've got people around me that just start canceling some of my appointments, so it's good.
[00:34:59] Michael Martin: There you go. We all need those. Yes, we do have some great people around you, uh, including your wife. And earlier you made reference to Doug, to your board.
And so, uh, we do have some board members, uh, listening to this podcast as well and kind of focused on the importance of leader care. Uh, what would you say? As a leader who's kind of experienced a lot of the benefits of the board engaging, uh, with you in this space, what advice would you have for boards as they're taking steps to provide more proactive leader care?
[00:35:31] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I would say you need to call other boards. I mean, you know, we. We, we learn by talking to other board members and other pastors. What are you doing? What are some best practices? We, we had, you know, again, um, pastor serve leaders come and speak to our board. Why is this important? Uh, what, what are some of the national trends?
So board members might think like more like business organizational leaders. So. What ECA is doing is, hey, it is in your best interest to steward the, the heart and mind and life of your pastor so that [00:36:00] uh, you, you can have a healthy church. So we, we use this phrase a lot because we're, we're trying to build an ecosystem in South Florida that's not just about Calvary, it's about all the churches in South Florida.
It's called Church United and United. We, we, we talk about this paradigm. Healthy leaders, thriving churches, flourishing cities. So if we invest in the leaders and make sure they're healthy, make sure the ecosystem of the staff and of the board governance is healthy, that'll lead to a thriving church that's not gonna blow up because you neglected all these things and that that's gonna lead to outreach into the city that allows the cities to flourish and be saturated with the gospel.
So we continue to create pastor cohorts, um, where we invest in pastors, build relationships and trust. That in turn allows boards to communicate and churches to communicate with each other and, and, and we're constantly gaining best practice from each other because there's a a, there's a environment of trust that's been built and we, we talk about our sabbaticals with each other.
We talk about how to help incorporate these things with our staff just in our, in our regular meetings. What are you doing at your church to invest in your staff and, and what are the effects
[00:37:07] Michael Martin: of that? Yeah. What are some of the early fruits that you're seeing? I love that vision by the way, of beyond just, uh, the local church that you're a part of, but a but a part of the community.
What, what are some of the early fruit that you're seeing and, and what, what also, I guess, would motivate you or give you even some more hope for the future?
[00:37:27] Doug Sauder: Yeah, I think. So when we went through our failure 11 years ago when our, our church went through this crisis, we had a lot of local churches and pastors who just gathered together to pray for us.
I mean, we had one pastor who said, if you're here from Calvary, go back to your church. You know, they need you. Um, and, and since then there have been some other crisis that have hit the South Florida church community, but the pastors have, in this last season really connected together, prayed together, served each other.
Um, so I would say the level of trust, I would say the level of, of. Transparency about the pressure that we're under and talking about it with other pastors. So when I'm talking to another pastor, you know the elder board, they have different names, the staff have different names. The the difficult people in congregation and the crisis, they all have different names and faces, but it's all the same thing.
And there's this safe place where we can talk about this pressure so we can, we never have to say, no one understands what it's like to be me. These cohorts allow us to say, I know what it's like to be you, and you know what it's like to be me, and we can talk about this stuff without using the names and situations, and we can pray for each other.
So there's never an excuse for me to say, I'm in this all by myself. I'm all alone. No one understands. Um, which, which is sort of the catalyst for, you know, foolish behavior, medicating behavior, you know, all the things that people do when they, they, they're feel trapped. So I think those, those relationships, uh, I, I've had a series of relationships with local South Florida pastors that, that's one of my groups that is unique for me than any of the other groups [00:39:00] because these, these men and their wives carry this pressure all the time, and we go through all the ups and downs together.
We, um, you know, I've got some pastor friends right now that are going through something, something that I went through a couple years back, and I'm praying for them because I know what that feels like. And, and just to send a text. Um, is, is super helpful. So, and, and the other That's awesome. What a gift of,
[00:39:21] Michael Martin: yeah.
[00:39:23] Doug Sauder: Yeah, no. I'll say the other unintended benefit is we have pastors who are raising up great associates and great leaders under them, but then another church needs them. And so that pastor calls and says, Hey, I need someone to pastor my church. And we're sending some of our best people to pastor other churches, and it creates an even tighter network between all the ministries and all the leaders of our churches in South Florida.
So we're watching this beautiful, beautiful effect of what came out of brokenness. Is built this beautiful supernatural unity and sort of transparency, uh, among pastors in South Florida, and we're watching it spread and grow, which is beautiful.
[00:40:00] Michael Martin: It is beautiful. That's awesome. I love hearing how God took, yeah.
What was a really tough, tragic situation. Uh, the way that the culture has shifted there towards this place of health and now, uh, creating health not only in your church, but then also as that spreading out to other churches as well. That that is an incredible testimony that we just, uh, we wanna rejoice with you in that today.
That's awesome.
[00:40:27] Doug Sauder: It
[00:40:28] Michael Martin: is been
[00:40:28] Doug Sauder: very
[00:40:28] Michael Martin: good.
[00:40:28] Doug Sauder: Very
[00:40:28] Michael Martin: good. He has been good. Well, I know we're coming to the end of our time, so maybe I'll just kind of leave it here. Uh, for you, just any kind of final advice, um, as you're reflecting on our conversation here around leader care, anything else that you feel like would be important on your heart to share?
[00:40:47] Doug Sauder: Yeah. There, there's a, there's a scripture in Psalm 92 that's sort of like my, my vision for leadership. Uh, it, it talks about. Blessed are the men and women who are planted in the house of God, uh, in, in their old age. They're gonna bear fruit and they're always gonna stay ripe and green because God is their rock.
And it's like, it's like a picture of soul care. And I meet a lot of people who served in ministry 30, 40, 50 years. And a lot of them, I'd say most of them, you know, people with gray hair and people with all the scars and all the stories, um, I'd say a majority of them finished. Um. Many of them have finished well, but a lot of them are tired.
A lot of them are, uh, glad that's over or maybe a bit cynical from all the things. But every once in a while I meet, I. A guy in his eighties, or a woman in her nineties, and their eyes are still alive. It's like, while, while all the burden and drag of ministry, um, made other people grow old, it actually made them grow young.
Uh, and, and there's a, a curiosity and an enthusiasm about the church and about the kingdom of God and, and just, you know, when I [00:42:00] talk to people like this and they giggle, um, I know that they've never lost their youthful heart to serve Jesus. I think ministry and the drag and the burden can make you grow old and cynical and disconnected and numb very fast, disillusioned.
But if you stay planted in the house of God, if you have good soul care, if you're around people like that, um, if I live to 85, 9 years old, I wanna be able to giggle and say. Uh, it's so cool to see what Jesus did and what he's doing. I'm so curious to see what he's about to do next. And, and so that, that sort of is my ultimate goal is I wanna, I don't wanna just finish or finish well, I wanna finish and be able to giggle to myself at what God did and what he's still doing.
And, uh, so for me that's, that's always that mark that north.
[00:42:46] Michael Martin: Well, I wanna take the opportunity to encourage you in that, um, you're taking all the great steps like we mentioned in the conversation today. Maybe not every day is perfect or every, every step along the way is perfect. But it's awesome to hear what God is is doing in your life and your leadership.
Uh, all the insights that you shared today have been really such a great blessing. Uh, might ask you to do something that's. A little bit different. Uh, we don't even typically do this on our podcast, but I'd just love for you to maybe pray, uh, you know, pray for those leaders who are listening, who kind of hearing your story and maybe connecting with different pieces of it.
If you don't mind just praying a prayer, a blessing for us as we close out, that'd be great.
[00:43:24] Doug Sauder: Absolutely.
[00:43:25] Michael Martin: Michael, lemme pray.
[00:43:27] Doug Sauder: Father in heaven, you are the maker of our hearts. You're the keeper of our hearts. And you say, if we guard our heart. We be wise because it's the wellspring of our life, and so Jesus, help us to guard our hearts, help us to take care of our souls, help us to practice Sabbath and rest and help us to trust you to do the things that we cannot do.
There are so many things that we wanna do in our organizations, in our churches, in our families that we just don't have the power to do, but right now, we ask that you would do what we can because you're the God who can do it measurably more than we can ask or imagine because of your power that should work within us.
All this, Jesus is for your glory. It's for your church. It's for your kingdom. And so we committed to you. Help us to rest in your presence. Help us to laugh at the days to come. That demonstration of faith and ultimate trust in our good God and King. We love you Jesus, and we pray your blessing over all these leaders in your name.
[00:44:27] Michael Martin: Amen. Amen. Hey, we received that. Thank you so much and thanks again. Yeah. Thanks for joining us on the podcast and all your time and insights today. We appreciate it.
[00:44:37] Doug Sauder: Thank you, Michael, for your leadership. Appreciate you.
[00:44:42] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for The Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation.
We'll see you next time.