EP50: Jakub Linowski of GoodUi.org

Show Notes

Jakub Linowski  is a Toronto (Canada) based interface designer. He surprised everybody this year (including himself) by releasing a viral hit called GoodUI.org. In this interview we go behind the scenes, and try to unpack that success. There’s lots of good insights in here for content marketing and conversion optimization.

Sponsors

This show wouldn’t be possible without these great sponsors. When you support them, you support the show!

• Are you creating an application that needs charts or a dashboard?  FusionCharts is a JavaScript charting solution trusted by over 450,000 developers around the world. They have tons of interactive and animated charts with advanced features like tooltips, drill-down, chart export and zoom. Their charts also work across PCs, Macs, iPads, iPhones and Android devices. You can download a free-trial at:

  Go to fusioncharts.com

• Sprint.ly has been there from the beginning. Perfect for software teams of 3 or more people, Sprint.ly is the easiest way for managers and developers to track the software development process. You and your team can try Sprint.ly for free, go to  www.sprint.ly.

  Use the code productpeopletv2013 to get 10% off!

Notable quotes

“What stirred the discussion was that people were pissed off about the fat, big footer (where the email signup was).”

“People were asking: what’s this ‘good ui’ guy doing with that big footer?”

“If you look at conversion optimization, the footer was a clear success. My conversion rate on that email sign-up is 20%. I have over 26,000 people on my list right now.”

“There’s a few factors that affected the success of sign-ups: the visibility of the call to action, plus a promise for future content, plus visuals that a depict a clear idea (they were sketched out on purpose), social proof, a small number of fields (just email), no commitment, the ability to unsubscribe at any time”

“It costs me $200/month to send emails to this list.”

“Your landing page should be opinionated. This will fuel the debate and discussion. On Goodui.org I had this element of ‘this vs that’; I think stat stirs interest.”

Show notes

Linowski.ca

Jakub on Twitter

GoodUI.org

🎙️ Podcast hosting is provided by Transistor.fm.
📺 Learn how to start your own podcast!

Creators and Guests

Host

Justin Jackson

⚡ Bootstrapping, podcasting, calm companies, business ethics. Co-founder of Transistor.fm

What is Product People?

A podcast focused on great products and the people who make them

Speaker 1: 00:08

Howdy. I'm Justin, and this is Product People, the podcast focused on great products and the people who make them. And this week, have Jacob Lonowski on the show. He's the man behind goodui.org, which attracted a ton of attention and over 26,000 subscribers. We're going to talk about why he built it and how all that happened.

Speaker 1: 00:31

But first, let me thank a few people who make this show possible. Joe Stump at www.sprint.ly has been a sponsor forever. And basically, Joe's whole idea with building Sprinly is he wanted to bring some transparency to the development process. So instead of development being kind of a black box where no one knew exactly what was going on, he wanted to make it transparent to the whole company. And that's exactly what Sprinly does.

Speaker 1: 00:59

It's project management software built specifically for people building software. You can try it for free, www.sprint.ly, but then you can get 10% off with the coupon code PRODUCTPOPOLTV2013. Next up, are you creating an application that needs charts or dashboard? Fusion Charts is a JavaScript charting solution trusted by developers around the world. They have tons of charts, lots of options.

Speaker 1: 01:26

Their charts work across all different platforms. You can download a free trial at fusioncharts.com. And after all that, hey, Jacob, how's it going?

Speaker 2: 01:37

Hey, Justin. Thanks for having me here.

Speaker 1: 01:41

Yeah. Well, I'm really looking forward to this chat. Now you're you're a fellow Canadian. Right? I'm a fellow Canadian working away from Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Speaker 1: 01:51

So perfect. And what do you do for a living?

Speaker 2: 01:54

So I'm a UI designer, and I pretty much specialize in concept things, sketching, kind of early stages that are kind of loosely defined, ambiguous. And then I also work for a bunch of clients, I guess, in North America here, and one being kind of a more long term contract, which I'm balancing with, you know, some clients in The States as well.

Speaker 1: 02:15

Perfect. And and have you been doing this for quite a while, UI design?

Speaker 2: 02:20

It's yeah. It's been evolving. It's been a career path I've been evolving since high school, specifically probably '96 or so.

Speaker 1: 02:30

Wow. Yeah. So you got involved in high school? Like, when when was 96? Was that tenth grade, eleventh That

Speaker 2: 02:37

probably eleventh, twelfth grade or so.

Speaker 1: 02:42

And how did it happen? How did you get involved in the web?

Speaker 2: 02:46

So that it's actually the kind of spark was the initiative was my mom found a newspaper clipping in a Polish newspaper, a little ad saying, looking for a web designer. Right? And you know, with a number. And I and I called this guy up and and this was like before the .com boom, I guess, or where everyone like was jumping onto buying, purchasing domain names and such. And, yeah, this guy had a bunch of different domain names and a bunch of other ideas what to do with them.

Speaker 2: 03:21

And I just started, you know, doing building different kind of sites for him for, like, for for for lawyer lawyer listing databases, stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 03:34

So So that was your first paying gig, was in high school?

Speaker 2: 03:37

That was the first time. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 03:38

And do you remember how much you charged for those first sites?

Speaker 2: 03:42

You know, when you're in high school, don't charge much. Right? Yeah. But but whatever you get is still still perceived as much. Right?

Speaker 2: 03:49

So so for, as an example, one of the first I did it, I think, was a couple 100, which took, like, two or three weeks. And I was like, wow. That was awesome.

Speaker 1: 03:59

Yeah. Like, that seems like it's like so much money. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 04:04

But, yeah, definitely learning very quickly at that point, know, when you kind of compare how quickly you learn when you're a teenager versus, you know, someone a bit older, like, I guess, us in the thirties or so. Mhmm. It's a it's a bit more sped up, I guess.

Speaker 1: 04:19

Yeah. Yeah. You just have way more time to focus on that stuff.

Speaker 2: 04:23

And time, of course, yeah.

Speaker 1: 04:25

Let's kind of fast forward. You just launched something called Good UI. When did you actually launch that?

Speaker 2: 04:33

So Good UI came about probably March or April, I think, of this year.

Speaker 1: 04:38

So March or April 2013. And why did you build it? What's the story behind it?

Speaker 2: 04:46

So the whole idea behind it was to kind of validate, maybe share these kind of intuitive gut feelings of of what, you know, kind of constituted good user interface design. I guess, you know, when you're when you're working in a profession and and and and you have a couple years behind your back, you you start developing or or falling back on these little principles or or tips that you kind of use in your work. Right? And those kind of accumulate in your in your head. Right?

Speaker 2: 05:24

And and I started I started jotting them down. You know, they're and they're, you know, some are kind of envisioned on your own, but some are heard from a bunch of other people and, you know, on on the on the web. Right? But started getting trying to get a grasp of of of those and explicitly kind of write out write them out and and share them when, you know, with the community. So they're they're kind of hypotheses in a way.

Speaker 2: 05:51

So they're not, they're not specifically like the 10 commandments. You know, you have to follow this, the golden rules.

Speaker 1: 06:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 06:03

They I I purposely left I I purposely used the the word try in the beginning of each tip. Yeah. Try. Almost almost like that inspired a little bit by the kind of agile manifesto, which I think uses something like do this over that. I don't know, conversations over documentation as an example.

Speaker 2: 06:21

Right? Yeah. So so stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 06:25

And and when you launched it, like, was your idea that you just wanted to get a bunch of information out to people? Or did you think that you might eventually turn this into a product? What was your kind of thinking behind it?

Speaker 2: 06:40

I didn't think I could turn it into a product when I was initially doing it. I maybe maybe one of the the sparks or or or thoughts behind it was that if if I could explicitly, you know, list these good user interface tips and and share them publicly, and if they can get over time somehow maybe validated, then maybe I can use that later on in my work or maybe others could use that as well to to refer back to it. And and, you know, sometimes you have like these situations at work where you're like, should we do this or should we should have long scrolling pages or should we fit everything above the fold? And and and if if we could kind of if if if I could kind of validate that a little bit, maybe put some in later on eventually some numbers behind it and refer back to kind of, let's say, this particular tip and that's what kind of is established, then maybe those conversations will be easier Yeah. For myself and for others.

Speaker 2: 07:44

Right?

Speaker 1: 07:44

Yeah. And I I noticed now, I didn't see this initially, but you have on the in the footer of goodui.org, you have a place to receive an email newsletter. But then on the bottom right hand side, have a link that says improve your site. You click that, it takes you to Lanowski. What sorry, lanowski.ca.

Speaker 2: 08:08

Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 08:08

What's been the has that been a good driver for traffic and people buying those two services from you?

Speaker 2: 08:16

So that's something I think I incorporated. I've been, like, I guess playing around with, like I think that one I I introduced maybe a week ago. I can't say I got anything in the last week out of it, but it's definitely driving traffic. And I did I I have to say that I I did get a couple leads, successful leads from, from the good UI side. So it's definitely it's it's definitely something that builds credibility, I guess, a perception of expertise.

Speaker 2: 08:51

And it's I see definitely I I do see products and services being attached to to that site and as a as a business strategy for myself.

Speaker 1: 09:00

And so you are really saying this is an experiment. I'm going to put this out and, you know, see how people respond, but also hopefully have people try these things and validate some of these hypotheses that I have.

Speaker 2: 09:14

Right. Right. Right. So it's my gut feel I mean, the the way the the way they're set up is is kind of intuitively, you know, you have version kind of recommendation a over over b, and I and I'm feeling intuitively that a is, you know, better and there's some some rationale over

Speaker 1: 09:32

it.

Speaker 2: 09:32

Mhmm. But they're pretty much set up for for a b testing. Right? And for and that's kind of that's kind of also I think my my business strategy which is something I'm trying to get into is to move more and more to conversion optimization.

Speaker 1: 09:52

Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised that no one, like none of the AB testing suites have approached you to sponsor the site.

Speaker 2: 09:59

Not yet. So

Speaker 1: 10:03

how did because this thing got really popular. Mhmm. So can you tell us about how you launched it and promoted it?

Speaker 2: 10:12

So when I first launched it, I think in again, can't remember March or April. What I used to kick off, you know, the site and and the visibility of the site was was another blog platform that I ran called Wireframes Magazine

Speaker 1: 10:35

Okay.

Speaker 2: 10:35

With with a couple a couple thousand subscribers, I guess. And that was enough to spark off the kind of conversation and send it out. So I did do a post there referencing the new project. And then over time, I guess, over time, there's spikes of, of of inflow of of people. Right?

Speaker 1: 11:01

And

Speaker 2: 11:02

and some of the more kind of prominent spikes were from, Smashing Magazine, just doing tweets. I think they did three tweets over the course of a couple months. Yeah. Right? And, those were pretty, pretty big.

Speaker 2: 11:15

And then also Hacker News is another prominent one. Right?

Speaker 1: 11:18

Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 11:20

A bit of a funny story behind Hacker News is once I actually initially, I actually tried to to, to do a post on Hacker News myself and saying, hey, everyone, Check out this new project. It has some tips for you. And if you look at that comment, I mean, there's maybe just one response. Right? And it's just nothing.

Speaker 2: 11:39

It just died away. Yep. Just today in the morning, I looked up my karma meter from Hacker News. I think it's, like, five or something, whatever that means.

Speaker 1: 11:47

Right? Yeah. But

Speaker 2: 11:49

then, I think June or sorry, July of of the summer, another person did a post on on Hacker News. I think the product manager behind Dropbox, and I checked his karma, and I think it's, like, 10,000 points or whatever that means. So I guess he's more active. Right? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:07

And that thing just exploded and and over a 100 different comments and discussions. And and, you know, as I was as I was on on vacation this summer without access to, like, being able to kind of comment on and respond to this, I just was reading all these comments about, like, people trashing the site and then constructively deconstructing and arguing in a very interesting way. Mhmm. I think one of the one of the things that stirred the discussion was actually people were a little bit pissed off by the fat big footer

Speaker 1: 12:43

Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 12:43

At the at the bottom of the screen, which I think in certain cases, in mobile maybe cases, they took up quite a bit of space. Yeah. So people were really debating that. Know, what was this good UI guy doing and and has this terrible footer at the bottom. Right?

Speaker 2: 13:00

But but, yeah, the the the discussion on on how can you send a couple quite a bit of traffic and subscribers.

Speaker 1: 13:07

So Yeah. And we can talk about the footer in a second. Know, that's funny that I actually wrote a book about this called Amplification. And I've had quite a few things that have gone number one on Hacker News. But that thing you just described about trying to post it once and it getting no response, and then someone else trying again

Speaker 2: 13:29

Mhmm.

Speaker 1: 13:30

Is actually quite common. And it shows you actually how much timing can play into some of these things. And there's other variables as well. Like there might be a lot of people following that certain person on Hacker News, and that might have provided an initial kind of bump. But a lot of it has to do with timing.

Speaker 1: 13:54

And sometimes you can post something that gets no traction. And I think for people like us that are creators, that can be debilitating. Right? You can feel like, Oh, well, no one likes my thing. But I think the lesson in there is that a lot of these things do depend on timing and luck and some other factors.

Speaker 1: 14:16

And just because it didn't get traction one time doesn't mean it won't get traction again. And can you give us any idea of how much traffic did you get in that first week and since then? Like, what kind of numbers are we talking about?

Speaker 2: 14:32

But I would I would probably guess, in the thousands Okay. In the first week. But then, I think when I when I once looked at Google Analytics, at one point, it had something like 80,000 page views at its peak. Wow. So that was those that was probably that week with we're kind of or sorry.

Speaker 2: 14:52

Sorry. The month where the Smashing Magazine tweets overlapped with some of the hacker news stuff. So it was probably that time when I was kind of on vacation in Europe and and yeah, just kind of eyeing this. And that's when it kind of blew up a little bit.

Speaker 1: 15:12

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, listening to you, it sounds like you actually didn't promote it that much personally. Is that true?

Speaker 2: 15:19

I haven't tried that much. No. It was pretty much the wire fence post and the failed attempt on Hacker News. And then it was just taking care of itself.

Speaker 1: 15:32

Wow. That's amazing how sometimes things can just kind of become a thing on its own and just gain momentum. There must have been some initial people from the magazine that started to spread good UI around and obviously it kind of picked up from there.

Speaker 2: 15:54

I think so, though. I think that was you know, the kind of stirring up moment, the initial moment. Right? And I think you need that whether whether it's your own blog or whether you write a couple guest articles somewhere on something something more prominent. So that was definitely helpful, right?

Speaker 2: 16:13

To get the initial attention.

Speaker 1: 16:16

Okay. So let's talk about this infamous footer here that you're talking about. So anyone that's listening, if you go to goodui.org, you'll see that there's kind of the first, I don't know, five, six of the page, depending on your browser and your window and all that. But a big portion of the page is the actual content, which goes through different ideas for Good UI. And at the very bottom is a fixed footer where it says, Receive an update twice a month, and then you can enter your email, your name and email address.

Speaker 1: 16:51

And this is what Jacob was referring to when he said there's a lot of controversy around that as to whether that was good UI or not. So first of all, Jacob, do you think that's good UI? Why did you put that big fat footer in there?

Speaker 2: 17:04

Well, if you look at conversion optimizations, and if that was the goal, to convert, it was one of the kind of hypotheses I wanted to test was how to get as many people onto this mailing list as quickly as possible. Right? Then that I think was a was a clear success. I don't I don't have, like, today's numbers in terms of how it converts, but I again, I kind of do remember intuitively looking back at it in the first month or two, or three, and it was probably a conversion rate of 20%

Speaker 1: 17:34

Wow.

Speaker 2: 17:34

From from the unique visitors. So that was, I think that was pretty good. Right?

Speaker 1: 17:41

Yeah. That's really good. So 20% of unique visitors in the first couple months entered their email address? Yes. Wow.

Speaker 1: 17:51

And I mean, other thing I wanted to talk to you about, I've been doing these interviews. I've interviewed a lot of people. You mentioned Nathan Barry and all these other folks. I don't know anybody that has 26,000 subscribers. Do do you actually have 26,000 people on your email list?

Speaker 2: 18:11

I do have 26 over 26,000 people on the list. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Holy smokes. Like, that is unreal. Like, that that's that's honestly the biggest list I've heard of, like, of one person just getting on his own.

Speaker 2: 18:25

I I would say so. I think footer being one thing. Right? I mean, there's a bunch of variables that interplay altogether. Right?

Speaker 2: 18:32

And the visibility of the call to action is is one thing. I think a promise to deliver content is maybe another thing. Maybe maybe maybe it's also I kind of what I did was I kind of looked back at at Wireframes magazine, something I've done in the past. And then at this project, I did a bit of a comparison. And both both on both platforms, I've used visuals, like a small little kind of image to concise image to display, to visualize an idea.

Speaker 2: 19:11

Right? So maybe maybe that was kind of another factor that that tied into this. Mhmm. Maybe another thing was the fact that it's kind of sketched out. Sketching typically is is so there are basically basically a bunch of these kind of sketched out screens that kind of what you should do, what you should not do.

Speaker 2: 19:31

Yeah. And they're they're sketched out on purpose because sketching emphasizes get get straight to the point and emphasizes the idea very clearly as opposed to going into too much detail.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Mhmm. Yeah. And I wonder if the other thing that this subscription footer has is social proof, right? Because now it says 26,000 plus subscribers. So when you look at that, you go, Oh, well, this is a big deal, right?

Speaker 1: 19:59

26,000 other people have subscribed to this thing. It helps kind of motivate you because you can see that there's other people that have already done it.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Exactly. So yeah, social proof is the other thing that acts, that works in there. Very little not like very small number of fields is probably another tip.

Speaker 1: 20:21

Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Initially, I had three fields. I narrowed them down to like basically, I have first name and then last name as separate. And I wrote some JavaScript to combine those into full name and then split them out separate separately on on upon submission. Right? Yep.

Speaker 2: 20:34

So so the less fields, the better. I think no commitment and the ability to unsubscribe at any time. I think it's also maybe another thing that that helps. Mhmm. You know, to the fact that you can just get out of that at any point in time.

Speaker 1: 20:50

Yeah. Now that you have this mailing list, what's your plan? Like, are, what are you what are you going to offer these subscribers?

Speaker 2: 20:58

Right. So keep in mind that, you know, I mentioned that this is an experiment. Right? So I was kind of going into this without actually a plan. Right?

Speaker 2: 21:06

Yeah. But as you can see, as you mentioned as well, in the in the last couple weeks, I started pushing products and services onto this. Right? Mhmm. You know, every month, of course, it costs to to support this list.

Speaker 2: 21:19

And then there's a there's a feed at Mailchimp, a nice feed at Mailchimp charges. Right?

Speaker 1: 21:23

Yep. How much does it cost to send to 26,000?

Speaker 2: 21:27

At this point, over $200 a month.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Wow. So this is is costing some money.

Speaker 2: 21:32

So it's costing money. Right? But I mean, whatever. It's it's still a fun experiment. Right?

Speaker 2: 21:36

So And intuitively, like I mentioned, it it has brought some business.

Speaker 1: 21:42

Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 21:43

So it is a form of content marketing. And I'm I'm intending to keep going, to to and and it's also a learning experience for myself and for others as well. So it's a fun little project.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Yeah. And and do you have an idea of what you're going to do next? Like, you've been sending out tips to people on the list. So you're still sending out good content. Right?

Speaker 1: 22:05

Do you have an idea Like have some people said, I'd really like it if you wrote a book on this? Or what are the kind of options you see at this point where you could take this project?

Speaker 2: 22:18

Mhmm. So there's a bunch of ideas that I'm I'm kind of circulating and playing out with and and jotting down notes on. One thought is and it goes back to to that initial idea of validating these things. Right? One thought is if I could actually run experiments for each and every one of these kind of ideas that are that are continuously growing and actually have numbers to support these, Maybe there's an opportunity to do good UI plus or good UI data, maybe on a subscription model.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 22:55

And and release kind of metrics and and true data, how well these, these things perform. So there could be so one thought is basically, like, an alternative, premium, I guess, mailing list with, with data to back this up.

Speaker 1: 23:14

Yeah. Like you said, this there's something about this that grabbed people. What do you think in terms of content? Like, you obviously hit a nerve So what can people do in terms of content that might elicit a similar kind of response, do you think?

Speaker 2: 23:29

Something you can take and apply and and and use almost like right away.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Mhmm.

Speaker 2: 23:35

Very clear. Maybe it should also be opinionated or have I I was I was beginning to wonder that maybe that kind of a bit of that, discussion or that kind of polarization, similarly as it happened on Hacker News as people kind of almost like two two sides. Hey. We should do this. We should do that.

Speaker 2: 23:54

No. This this is good. This is bad. And they're kind of arguing between each other. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:58

I noticed that that was kind of fueling the debate and the discussion. And I wonder if if that's something I also have that that is visible on the site itself with those, you know, try this over that. Maybe that element of of this versus that is is, is kind of somewhat kind of, you know, stirs be still stirs interest and stirs people's thoughts.

Speaker 1: 24:27

Yeah. I think you're right. Because I think, on one hand, people look at it and it gives them something easy to try. They can say, Oh, don't do this. Do this.

Speaker 1: 24:37

And it's something, kind of, like you said, you can apply right away. But on the other hand, you're right. Because you've created an opinion, you've said, I think this is right and not this, there might be some opposition to that. And opposition isn't always bad, is it?

Speaker 2: 24:56

Not at all. No. I think it's very constructive. Right? And it makes you think and it challenges people.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Right?

Speaker 1: 25:06

Have you had any interest has anyone asked you if you would like create some sort of kit with all the elements you had here so that people could do this on their own?

Speaker 2: 25:19

To do what exactly on their own?

Speaker 1: 25:21

To create a page like this. So I'm thinking like the HTML resources and maybe your Illustrator templates and kind of the whole thing. Just allow people to download kind of a generic kit of this so that they could build something similar.

Speaker 2: 25:42

Mhmm. So there was one, I think, comment once made, something along the lines of, hey, these tips are all interesting, but they're all separate from one another. Wouldn't it be cool if we kind of released something that amalgamated all these tips into one uniform, almost like a I'm guessing almost like a bootstrap HTML framework. Mhmm. So that was one idea that was thrown a couple weeks ago.

Speaker 1: 26:11

Yeah. And are those the kinds of things that you're thinking about? I mean, have you gotten a lot of ideas from people saying, man, you should really try this? Or and has anyone said, you know, I would pay for this kind of this something inspired by this?

Speaker 2: 26:31

There's definitely product ideas that are being generated from this. The other month or so, someone mentioned, oh, this should be done in a poster format or oh, this should be a book made out of this, right? Mhmm. Yeah. So all these I'm trying to capture.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:52

And yeah, I'm kind of thinking about

Speaker 1: 26:56

What you're going to do next. Yeah. So now you realize you have an audience. Like a lot of people are just trying to build an audience. And now suddenly you have an audience.

Speaker 1: 27:04

A big one. Like bigger than a lot of people that have been doing this for a long time. And so now you're trying to figure out what to do with this audience.

Speaker 2: 27:14

Exactly. Yeah. So one thing I think on one hand is how to how to provide and continue deliver, you know, good quality content, you know, for for these people. Mhmm. But also, how can I extract value for myself?

Speaker 2: 27:31

Right? And and how can I learn continue continue to learn and and like I mentioned, kind of validate some of these thoughts so that they don't just wither away because again, they're all just hypotheses? Right? Maybe I'm totally wrong on all that. Right?

Speaker 2: 27:44

I don't know. Yeah. Hopefully not hopefully not. But so yeah, providing guess you got a balance providing value to to to the people that are listening to you, but also balancing how how to connect and and use these relationships for for your own goal as well.

Speaker 1: 28:05

Because now your challenge, it sounds like, is you're saying, I've got this broad audience. It's everyone from designers to business people, and how am I going to offer them something of value?

Speaker 2: 28:14

And I think they're interested in in in good user interface design. Right? And as as long as stick to content, maybe, maybe I get I need to do a course on on on this stuff. Right?

Speaker 1: 28:26

And Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:26

And and do a I've been kind of actually eyeing udemy.com. It's kind of getting more and more traction recently. Yeah. And thinking about doing something along those lines as well.

Speaker 1: 28:37

Yeah. I think I think that's a good idea. I'm definitely gonna have to come back and connect with you again for follow-up to see as you try some of these now business experiments how how the what the result is. You know? Because Sure.

Speaker 1: 28:51

You had that you kind of have the you have the first part of the funnel, which is this, you know, the big getting the traffic at the top of the funnel. And now, you're getting to the part you're getting probably to the middle part of the funnel where you're trying to figure out, What can I offer these folks? Pretty soon, you're going to be at the end where you're going to say, How many people actually converted out of my audience?

Speaker 2: 29:14

Exactly. And now I'm on the hook.

Speaker 1: 29:19

Well, thanks so much for coming on and chatting with me, man. There's lots of great stuff here, I think, for our audience. You can check out Jacob on Twitter. He is jlanowski. You can also check out Good UI, goodui.org.

Speaker 1: 29:38

You can also check out his web page, llanowski.ca. That's a Canadian domain extension. And wireframes is wireframes. Lanowski.ca, right?

Speaker 2: 29:50

Yes. Perfect.

Speaker 1: 29:52

Well, thanks again for being on the show.

Speaker 2: 29:54

Thanks so much, Justin. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 29:56

Thanks. This is my fiftieth episode with Product People. I've interviewed over 25 guests and have had over a 100,000 downloads over this past year. And now I'm ready to take a break. I'm going to be retiring the show or semi retiring the show.

Speaker 1: 30:17

It's not going to go away permanently. The feed will stay active, I'll keep adding new shows occasionally. For example, I've got a new show planned with Amy Hoy sometime in the future, but I won't keep producing a new show every week. And this is why. I wanted to stop talking about this stuff and start doing it.

Speaker 1: 30:35

I think the most important lesson I've learned from product people is that there's a time for learning, but there's also time for action. You have to start doing. In September, I sold my first downloadable product called amplification and that same month I launched something called JFDI. BZ And that already has 90 paying members. I'd love for you to come and check that out.

Speaker 1: 30:59

J f d I dot b zed. And I'm I'm just hooked on doing stuff. I will hope you get hooked on doing stuff too. The relationships I've built with you and all the listeners are really important to me. And if it's okay with you, I'd like to keep in touch via email.

Speaker 1: 31:17

You can subscribe to my email list at Justin Jackson dot c a slash email dot HTML. Thanks again for this incredible ride. Feel free to email me at [e-mail] or hit me up on Twitter at MI Justin. And that's it. The final episode or the final official episode of Product People for a while.

Speaker 1: 31:41

Thanks again.