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For years, some corners of the Democratic Party have demanded leaders embrace an aggressive zero-carbon-only future, and the result is a power grid that is now straining under new demand, continued reliance on the highest emitting fuels, and rising costs. Switchboard is where five Democratic leaders discuss how more practical “all of the above” energy positions are both good policy and good politics. Former U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, former Governor Terry McAuliffe, former Mayor Michael Nutter, and former Congressmen Tim Ryan and Kendrick Meek share insights and laughs about the intersection of politics, energy and climate. Each episode pairs a roundtable with a one-on-one interview, bringing outside voices into the room to test the argument.
[00:04] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Welcome to Switchboard. I'm former Senator Mary Landrieu from the great state of Louisiana.
[00:10] GOVERNOR TERRY MCAULIFFE
Hi, I'm Terry McAuliffe, 72nd Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, former chairman of the National Governors Association.
Obviously one of the biggest problems we've had trying to do big projects here in this country is permits. It takes forever. They're very confusing. And we can't compete on a global stage. And there's great news coming out of the Senate that we have a possibility of a new permitting reform bill. It'll come up after the election. It's an exciting time. It gives everybody a focus, understands what we need to do to get a project done. So I'm wondering, Congressman, what do you think of the odds when the bill gets through the Senate? What happens when it comes to the House?
[00:45] CONGRESSMAN KENDRICK MEEK
Well, it's definitely going to have to be a bipartisan effort if it's before the new Congress comes in. It'll be an opportunity for a number of members on both sides of the aisle to be able to, I guess, speak truth to power, if they're about the affordability message that they're giving now. That would be an example of both parties working towards a solution, which I think can happen. I mean, there's a lot of leadership on the Senate side. We feel that the House can pick that up. Maybe, you know, not all, but a big part of it that can make an impact and get us moving, because we're stuck right now. We're stuck because leadership has not been provided in this space. And leadership is key to being able to bring about the solutions that Americans are looking for.
[01:37] GOVERNOR TERRY MCAULIFFE
Mayor, I know you can address this, because I remember sitting in Richmond, in the governor's office: Why is this project not done? Why are we waiting so long? What is going on? I know as mayor of Philadelphia you went through this.
[01:49] MAYOR MICHAEL NUTTER
Well, you know, I would say to folks that they should at least be able to get their project done within their lifetime. They should not have to pass it on to their child while they wait to get something done. What I do find amazing: not only is there bipartisan support, conversation, discussion, but it's permitting reform. Now, often not the most exciting topic in the universe, but it goes right to what Kendrick said. It goes to affordability, goes to jobs. Things suddenly become more affordable when you have more money. It deals with the energy issues that we've been struggling with in both red and blue areas. Is it natural gas? Is it more electricity? Is it pipelines? Whatever the case may be. And so doing things still appropriately, with regulations, et cetera, et cetera, but sometimes we get in our own way, and rules and regulations get written that don't make any sense over some period of time. So I'm excited. I don't know if it's going to light up the campaign trail, but for some people, this will be an important topic.
[02:51] GOVERNOR TERRY MCAULIFFE
And I know, Mary, you as the great senator from the great state of Louisiana, you have been dealing with permitting reform your entire career. Few people in the Senate have had as much discussion on this topic. So I know you're excited. Where do you think we are?
[03:04] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
I'm very excited, and I want to just share with you all that I had some amazing conversations just last night, and you'll see a bit of this, with Senator Alan Armstrong, the former CEO of Williams Company, one of the largest midstream pipeline companies in our country, and a company that's been around, Terry, for 130 years. This isn't a fly-by-night organization out of Oklahoma. He got to the Senate kind of by a miracle, because the seat opened and his governor appointed him. So Alan literally goes to the Senate. He can't run for reelection, but he's an expert on putting pipelines in the ground, and he became an expert on transmission lines because he's in the energy business. He knows what it takes to build a pipeline. He knows how people have been stopping them over frivolous issues.
And so he was a spark plug. He went in, he started working, and Alan is so bipartisan. So he worked across party lines. Of course John Hickenlooper, who you'll hear yourself on this podcast, he worked with Alan. So you have a Democrat from Colorado, a Republican from Oklahoma. You had Shelley Moore Capito from [West] Virginia, Republican. Martin Heinrich, Democrat from New Mexico. Sheldon Whitehouse. Senator Lee from Utah. So it was a very interesting group that came together, and other senators. But the great news is they released the language, everyone can see it, and it's to build pipelines faster and build transmission lines.
Terry, what good does it do to have all the gas in the world in Pennsylvania if you can't build a pipeline to New York? What is the good of having it? Pennsylvania has enough gas for itself and everyone else. But if they can't get it out of Pennsylvania... The same way we have in Louisiana. We have enough gas for ourselves. We need to send it out. And then for Iowa, let's take Iowa. Iowa's a red state, but it's got a lot of wind. But it doesn't matter how much the wind blows in Iowa if they can't get the transmission lines to get the electricity to some other place that might need it. That is what's holding us up.
We have to be respectful. We have to follow the law. But when those laws stop us from moving forward as a country, we have to change them. And that's what this bill does. Let's hear from these two really great leaders in the Senate. Let's hope that the Senate will come back after the election, hold that bipartisan [coalition] together, get it over to the House. [Hope] people aren't too upset about what happened in the election. I think we might be happy, you know, as Democrats. I think we're going to do well. And let's try to get this bill passed, because it's really, really important for our country.
[05:56] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Alan Armstrong, you are now a United States Senator. Before that, you were a very happy CEO of a wonderful company, Williams, a pipeline company, one of the largest in the country, moving natural gas. And you'd worked for that company for 30 years...
[06:18] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Forty.
[06:19] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Forty years. And then you got the call from the governor, asking you if you wanted to serve out a term in the United States Senate, which was vacated when your senator was appointed by the president to another position. What did you think, and why did you do this?
[06:39] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Well, Mary, you know well how this story went. You were one of my very first calls, to say, do you really think I could make a difference? And do you really think we could get permitting reform done? You know from knowing me for a lot of years that it just was such a passion of mine, to realize that if we didn't fix permitting processes here in the U.S., we eventually were going to cripple our great country. And so it's always been a passion of mine.
I kind of doubted whether I could really have any impact. And a lot of people I would talk to would say, oh, good luck. People have been trying to do that for a long time. Good luck trying to get that done. But you told me that, well, it's gonna be hard, but it's better than a 10% chance. And I thought, well, that's pretty good. That's worthy of an effort. And so honestly, that was a major factor.
Our governor, Governor Stitt, was somebody that really believed in getting our permitting [fixed]. He had seen it firsthand, how long it was taking to get critical infrastructure built. And I'd seen him as somebody that was very politically courageous. He would do things that weren't in his own political best interest, but what he thought was best for our state. And I was, you know, very inspired by that, frankly, and realized, hey, I can sit around and gripe about what's not getting done in our country, or I can take my turn in the barrel and try to contribute. So that's...
[08:24] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Well, thank you for stepping up. Thank you for telling your governor yes, thank you for telling President Trump yes, and thank you for showing up in the Senate. Because, Alan, honestly, this is kind of amazing that we're talking tonight on this podcast. And today, the bill that we have been working on for years, I mean years on both sides, but definitely the last two years in this Congress. Well, no, it's more than two. I mean, it's been six years, eight years. But in this Congress, the last two years, with the four members, the EPW Committee and Natural Resources had a press conference today announcing the deal. So you helped put that deal together, and you helped to put the pressure on those members and encouraged them to get this deal done, which wasn't easy, because [it's] two different committees. Tell us a little bit about how you did that, and then we'll go into some things that you like about the bill, what you think is balanced about it. But tell us about the process. How did you show up? What did you tell them? "We need to get to work"?
[09:35] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Yeah, you know, well, I think a couple of things. One, there was a doubt about what a good bill would look like. And I've had just an amazing staff, and I really recruited people that, this has been their passion, and people that really care about our country and realize, like I do, that if we don't get this done, you know, it'll be 20 years from now, but we will not be a great country if we can't continue to build out our infrastructure here. So that was the first thing, really surrounding myself with people that were very passionate about it. And then putting together a very serious bill that showed, here are the things that need to get handled. And thank goodness, so much good work had already been done on the House [side] on this.
[10:27] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Well, within the House, and then also Senator Manchin and Senator Barrasso had put a pretty good bill down a couple of years ago that didn't get final passage. And then the House of Representatives had put some good concepts down. So I think you built on both of those.
[10:42] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Yeah. I mean, it's really simple in concept to say, you know, gosh, we better be able to build infrastructure that moves energy from the place where it's sourced to the place that it's most in demand. But, you know, for whatever reason, people have fought that and fought that and fought that. And that was starting to come home to roost in the way of higher utility bills.
So I would say the political environment this year, of higher utility bills, higher energy prices... A politician can make a decision in the short term that they're not held accountable for. [But] those decisions were starting to accumulate in a way that the impact of stopping infrastructure, because it was popular to do so, was finally starting to come home. So that was a really powerful background.
But the thing that I would tell you that I think I contributed, it was not the bill writing, and it's not expertise, certainly not expertise about how politics and the Senate works. You've certainly been a great coach on that. It really was convincing the industry sectors that they needed to speak with one voice. And my argument to people was always, you know, we can sit out here in the industry and rail on the politicians for being partisan and never getting anything done. But if we're not speaking with one voice, then industry is guilty of that as well. And I think that's one of the major differences between where we've been in the past and where we are now. Industry, all sectors, renewables, hydropower, mining, geothermal, oil and gas, pipe, everybody has said, hey, this is not working. We are not going to be able to execute on any of our business plans and be able to supply the demands that are needed. And if we don't fix it, prices are just going to continue to go higher and higher and higher at the utility level.
[13:01] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
But what you brought to the table was, let's put a bill together where both sides win. Where renewables and cleaner energy, as well as our traditional energy that we're very proud of, that we've lowered emissions as gas has replaced coal. And as our electricity grid, Senator, is demanding more, I think your message: why are we fighting over a growing pie? You can understand why you might fight over a shrinking pie, but why are you fighting over a growing pie? Because we need more wind, more solar, onshore and offshore, on federal lands, on private land. And Texas is a good example of that. That state has been a traditional oil and gas state, but they have so much wind and so much solar, and their economy is booming. And their prices, while they have risen somewhat, are not nearly what they are in California or in New England or in Boston.
And so the other thing is, I think you went with this experience from Williams and from the private sector to say, hey guys, Economics 101: if you reduce supply, you raise prices. It's just the way it works. And so let's get more electrons. Now, I know that's easier said than done. So tell us, what are the two or three things that you think are so good about the bill, particularly in terms of its balance? It tries to support renewables as well as natural gas and mining.
[14:35] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Yeah, one of the basic principles that I came out initially and said was, listen, it has to be energy-source neutral. You might think that you're going to make it this way because that's what your constituents want, or you make it this way because that's what your constituents want. We've already seen where this ends. We've already seen big bills like EPRA fail on the fact that it was [too good for some] and not good enough for others.
So we really went into it, and I want to say a huge word of thanks, particularly to the clean energy side and the renewables side, who have trusted the effort to try to stick together on this and not start to try to carve out one group or another. And it did take some trust, frankly. And so I just want to say thanks to those folks for being there. I would certainly expect the pipeline industry to trust me, but I wouldn't necessarily expect that from the renewables. But we really worked hard to hear what they needed, what they wanted, what was good on their side, where they saw risk in the future. And I think that's been a real key to making this work. And I've heard it loud and clear from the four leaders on the bill: wow, you really convinced people that they needed to work together on this. And we've heard it loud and clear: this needs to be good for everybody. And so, from my perspective, the heroes on this are some of the industry and trade association leaders that have [stuck] together.
[16:17] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Oh, Alan, you're very gracious about that. But when are we going to vote on it? When is the Senate going to vote on it? And do you think it will pass the Senate? And then it has to go to the House, and then of course President Trump has to sign it. So tell us a little bit about the process and what you think [unclear].
[16:33] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Yeah, you know, I don't know what all's been released, and so I don't want to get ahead of the committee leads too much. But I will tell you what my expectations are, to stay safe here. And that is that we'll take a vote on the motion to proceed on the first Monday that we get back, which is November the 9th. And then a week later, we will take the full vote on the bill. And so that obviously takes some time agreements, but that was part of the agreement.
So this is a very, very meaningful bill. It's going to do a lot for power transmission, which obviously then does a lot for renewables. And it's going to do a lot for state interference in interstate commerce, which has been a challenge for a long time, in terms of a state saying, well, what's in it for us? And if I've got constituents that are against it, why in the world would I go along with this, despite what might be best for the country? And that's the whole reason you have interstate commerce laws.
[17:41] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
So, Alan, I'll just say this in conclusion: thank goodness, you little spark plug, [you showed up] at the right time. You know, sometimes God has plans, we don't know. But you showed up right at the right time, and your ability to work across party lines with Democrats... Of course, you're best friends with Senator Hickenlooper, which everybody in town is talking about, the two of you all, a great friendship. And he's a great senator, Democratic senator from Colorado. But your friendship, and then the way you worked with senators on both sides of the aisle, really, really have helped. So thank you so much. And let's keep working until we get that vote in November.
[18:25] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Yeah, great. Well, thank you. And, Mary, thanks for your inspiration. I truly wouldn't have taken this on if it hadn't been for our relationship. So thank you very much for your inspiration.
[18:36] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Yeah, thank you. Very good to see you.
[18:38] SENATOR ALAN ARMSTRONG
Likewise. Thanks.
[18:44] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Senator Hickenlooper, thank you so much for joining us on our new podcast with Natural Allies. We're targeting Democratic audiences, trying to help them understand a little bit better about energy, like all of the above, and why energy is so important for our country: electricity, where it comes from, how does it move. You have been a mayor, you have been a governor, and now you are a senator of really one of the most beautiful, important states. I mean, all of our states are important, but truly Colorado has been an energy leader and an environmental leader. And you've managed, even from your youngest days, to balance that: more energy, protecting our environment. So tell us, your perspective is over many years. How did you get involved in this issue at a young age, and why are you still doing it?
[19:39] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Well, thank you for all your work on this issue for such a long period of time. You know, I tried to be a writer, and I wasn't very good, and my friends were blunt. I went to a little college in Connecticut, Wesleyan University, that has a special program for people with non-science backgrounds who wanted to get a master's in geology. At that point it was earth and environmental science. I just fell in love with it. And as I got into the natural systems of the world, how over hundreds of millions of years, [a couple] billion years, our earth has evolved, so much of that history is dependent upon energy, and tides, and erosion of rocks, and getting buried miles underground, and volcanoes. I mean, I just loved it.
But part of that study, back then in the late '70s, was the greenhouse effect, and the fact that our atmosphere acts just like the roof of a greenhouse, so that solar heat comes down, and the infrared comes through and heats the ground, heats what's inside the greenhouse, whereas it's the ultraviolet that gets reflected off. And then the heat bounces back up, and on the inside it's reflected back down again. So the atmosphere does double duty, kind of warming us up. Even back in the early '80s, the models predicted a lot of what we see now: the extreme drought in the Southwest, how we've had cycles of great droughts. You know, in the Colorado River right now...
[21:12] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Terrible. It's terrible.
[21:14] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Well, it's probably the worst drought in 1,200 years. We've got sediment in the Grand Canyon. We can measure water levels pretty accurately.
[21:25] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Yeah.
[21:26] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
I came around, when I kind of came into politics... I ran for mayor of Denver, had no political experience, but climate change was part of it. We had an Office of Sustainability. We had [a program to] plant a million trees in Denver. The idea was you get realtors and people, every time they sell a house, they plant a tree. So you have more trees on the south side of houses, the houses stay cool, the leaves suck CO2 out of the air. [It was a way of] trying to push back against all the carbon dioxide that was coming from cars and everything we do. We make steel, we make concrete. So much of what we do... It's all solar energy, right? Coal and oil, it's all solar energy that has been stored and concentrated.
What we did in those periods was with the solar. When I first got elected mayor of Denver in 2003, there wasn't much wind in Colorado. There wasn't a lot of solar; there was some solar. But we made it a priority. But we didn't try to kick people off of their cars, because people have to get around. We didn't try to get rid of natural gas, because it's so much cleaner than coal. Natural gas seemed like that perfect transition.
[22:43] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Mm-hmm.
[22:44] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
How long that transition is, I don't think anyone really knows. We do know that the American people don't want to pay a lot more for their energy. But we do know that most people want to have [cleaner energy], and the feeling like they're pushing back against climate change, that we're not going to let it conquer us. We're not going to give in and, you know...
[23:05] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Just say there's nothing we can do.
[23:07] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Some people say that. And to me, it is kind of, how do we get to a cleaner energy system as fast as we can, but recognize working people don't have the money. We've got to make sure they can afford to heat their houses, that they can get to work.
[23:25] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Well, that's the key. And that's what I think you bring so much perspective to this debate on, whether it's permitting reform or a balanced approach to reducing emissions and producing more energy, because you just said it. People want to have a cleaner environment and a cleaner energy system, but we have to be careful the cost we put on them, or we lose the social license to operate if it gets too expensive for our businesses or for our people.
So, you know Senator Armstrong. He was a part of this program earlier. He actually is, I think, a neighbor, a tenant? I mean, you all live in the same house, which is so interesting.
[24:07] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
My wife and I renovated an old townhouse, like 20 feet wide, so it's like a little shoebox. But we renovated the upper three floors, and then there's an apartment in the basement, and we renovated it, so it's nice. The windows are new, and it's got a nice new kitchen.
[24:21] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
So he comes to town and it was available.
[24:23] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Well, we knew each other. I had met him when I was governor of Colorado. We had an initiative in 2012, 2013 [to have] diesel trucks have their fuel replaced with compressed natural gas. And it actually works pretty well. It's less expensive, and it makes it much cleaner. So we went to Mary, what was her name? Mary Fallin? Is that the former governor of Oklahoma? I'll look it up. She was terrific. And we did a whole test of this idea, converting delivery trucks from diesel into compressed natural gas.
[25:04] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Okay.
[25:05] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
And who was there but the Williams...
[25:09] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
President of Williams, yeah.
[25:10] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
And Williams was there. And so I met Alan, and he helped us. He was one of the sponsors of our event. And then we went our separate ways. And all of a sudden, I hadn't been reading the papers about who was coming from Oklahoma to replace Markwayne Mullin as he became director of Homeland Security. All of a sudden, I'm there, and this guy comes up to me and says, "Hey, you're Hickenlooper." And I go, yeah. And I'm face-blind; I don't remember people. He looks at me and says, "You know, I'm Alan Armstrong. Don't you remember we met? I helped you with your buses."
[25:40] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
I helped you with your buses. Yeah.
[25:41] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Exactly. And it was so funny. And so we got talking. And, you know, I'm frugal. I was thinking, he's going to be here for eight or nine months, and that's not enough time to really go rent a house and get moved in and everything. And I said, where are you going to stay? He said, well, I'm actually staying at one of the really nice hotels. I think it's gotta be like five or six hundred bucks a night. And I said, well, you know, if you don't mind occasionally moving out, we have an apartment, my wife and I, in the house we renovated, and it sits empty most of the time. Occasionally we have some [unclear].
[26:12] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
So listen, that is the exact definition of true bipartisanship and friendship, sharing your roof with someone from another party. So the whole town just loved it. And they would call me, because they know I know both of you: "Is that true, that Alan is living with Senator Hickenlooper?" I said, yes, they're living in separate places, you know. But it was just a great friendship and a great example that people can work across party lines and remain friends, and then work together to produce a really significant bill. And he and I just talked. I was in the Senate for a long time. We worked together. But this permitting has been elusive.
So tell me, what do you think about this bill? I know you've gotten to look at the framework of it, not all the details. But does it appear to you to be pretty balanced between the renewables and natural gas, and sort of opening up opportunities for a broad cross-section of infrastructure, transmission lines, pipelines?
[27:13] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
You know, they just dropped the language today, so we're all looking it over. My staff is still digging deep, but I knew a fair amount of it. I mean, it's going to be a hard bill. There's a lot of things that some people in the environmental community are going to be very unhappy with. There's a lot of things that some people in the oil and gas industry are going to be very unhappy with. I mean, I think when you're trying to do things and really push forward, you're almost always going to have people that are unhappy. And I think that's one of the real tricks here. I think what the drafters have done is a pretty good job. Now, again, I'm not going to fall on my sword and say that's the greatest thing to ever happen. I do know it's, as you described, one of the toughest issues that the Senate has ever taken on, continues to struggle with. And this one, you know, there's enough good stuff in transmission. So I wrote, well, my staff, I didn't write it...
[28:15] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
You had a transmission bill.
[28:17] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Pretty much, this bill is all my transmission bill, and then adding in more to it, which makes it even better. And I think they were very generous in trying to take the partisanship out of it. What is the best solution? That's one of the things I like about Alan Armstrong. He genuinely is, you know, he may be a Republican, I don't know, I'm going to guess he is, but he cares more about the common good.
[28:46] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Yes.
[28:47] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
And he cares more about this country. And when you look at the bill and you take it apart, I think that there's so many good things. It's gonna mean a lot more solar, a lot more wind, a lot more alignments of all the ways that we move electricity around. And certainly, when you look at some of the new needs, the amount of data we need, that electricity's got to move from one place to another. I think this bill helps a lot for that.
And we want to make sure that the process of putting in a new transmission line, if it crosses someone's land, doesn't take 20 years. We want to make sure that the owner of that land has a full chance to examine and hear about what the plan is, and that they are able to lodge a complaint or litigate, whatever they want to do. They can't come in ten years later. We wanted to make sure it was fair for the property owners, fair for the local community, and fair for the people that would be building that transmission line. Same thing with wind farms. Each of these things, this country demands that people get to hear what's going to happen to their neighborhood, their community. And I think this bill does a pretty good job. Not perfect, and this is where some of the people are going to be unhappy. It maybe doesn't go far enough here or there. But I think it's a legitimate point.
[30:21] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
I think, Senator, people don't realize what's changed. And it's not just the data centers, even though I know a lot of people are mad at them, and they probably need to figure out ways to be more appropriate with their local communities. But it's not just data centers. America is growing. Our country is growing. We're reshoring manufacturing, at least in my state. We have a record, like $100 billion or more. Steel plants that are making the steel for all of the cars that Hyundai [makes], some of them traditional automobiles, some of them new electric vehicles. We're making steel from scrap steel, low carbon. That's kind of exciting, you know. And so it's not just data centers. It's cement, concrete, reshoring of manufacturing. Chip manufacturers are coming back. People don't realize that takes electricity, and you've got to put up more electric lines, and you have to make those lines more efficient. So that's also in the bill, and you talked about that: efficiency with the electric grid, because ours is a little old, maybe a little rusty, and we haven't maybe put as much money as we should into it. But we can make the grid more efficient, but we have to build more wires as well.
[31:39] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Well, and more efficiency, more wires. I mean, one of the real missions, if you really want to win in addressing climate change, you gotta get electricity everywhere. In other words, we've gotta begin looking at ways to make concrete and steel, as you were describing. You can take scrap steel, but we still can't make steel from iron ore without high temperatures, blast furnace type temperatures...
[32:07] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Which takes natural gas, and other, maybe coal, natural gas...
[32:12] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Other denser forms of energy. But we're getting better and better at finding new materials that can take the place of [concrete] or steel in various applications. And as that happens, we're going to need more wind and more solar, because all of those applications take electricity. So we're moving to electric vehicles rapidly. People love, I mean, once you drive an electric car... I love, I got a '67 Chevy Malibu at home in my garage. I'm never getting rid of that car. I love driving that, putting the top down and driving around town. But I have also a Mach-E Mustang, all electric. I love that thing. It's got the acceleration of a Lamborghini.
[32:56] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
And it's so nice. You can just pass up the gas station, and when you see those five dollars, you just keep going.
[33:01] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Exactly. You don't have to worry about that. But I think electric vehicles... we're gonna end up heating and air conditioning our homes with electricity, and a lot of heat transfers. I mean, we're going to need to move electricity all over the place. And that's just a fact. And to get that facility, we made some trade-offs on this bill. Again, I think once the dust settles, a lot of people are going to say, I'm not happy with this, I'm not happy with this, I'm not happy with this. But in the end, there's enough good stuff that I think I can get past the bad stuff.
[33:33] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Well, last question, same question I asked Alan. Do you put your chips on the table that it will pass after the election? I know it's always a little risky. You never know what's going to happen in the election. But how do you see it? And, you know, the Senate's planning to vote in November. Do you feel pretty good about that vote? And can you talk to your colleagues about stepping up and getting it done?
[33:57] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Well, I do believe it's going to get a vote in November. I think both Senator Schumer and Senator Thune, I mean, you got the Senate majority leader and the Senate minority leader both saying we want to get this thing on the floor. I think that's a vote of confidence. I think that it's going to take a little bit of massaging, because there are some things in there that are going to be tough for some Democrats, and there's some things in there that are going to be tough for some Republicans. That's the nature of democracy, right? To get something that matters, both sides have to give a little. So again, I'm not going to prejudge or try to estimate what the votes are going to look like, but I am willing to, and have already made plans to, have a lot of discussions about the bill, so we get a full chance to hear it.
And I think in a way it's good that it didn't get dropped until very late, I mean literally just before we're leaving, so that now we've got five weeks without people trying to yell at us or persuade or anything like that. Senators going home to their own states, talking to people hopefully all around the state, and laying it out, saying, here's the good parts, here's the bad parts. I'm not crazy about this, but I think this is a real benefit. Do you think we can get our way through to supporting this? You know, I feel optimistic.
[35:15] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Well, that's very good, Senator, because you are a leader. People look to you. I know the Democrats look to you, and the Republicans look to you. Hopefully you and Alan can be more than just roommates. You're going to be permitting partners, to get something great done for Colorado, for Oklahoma, and for America. Well, thank you so much for that perspective, for your help, and thank you for your leadership.
[35:37] SENATOR JOHN HICKENLOOPER
Thanks for all your work on this, too. We really appreciate it.
[35:40] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Thank you.
[35:42] SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU
Thanks for joining us on Switchboard.
[35:59] [UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER]
Last topic up.