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From Here Forward shares stories and ideas about amazing things UBC and its alumni are doing around the world. It covers people and places, truths, science, art, and accomplishments with the view that sharing better inspires better. Join hosts Carol Eugene Park and Jeevan Sangha, both UBC grads, in exploring solutions for the negative stuff out there — focussing on the good for a change, from here forward.
[00:00:00] Carol: Hello, friendly alumni. Welcome back to From Here Forward, an award-winning UBC Podcast Network podcast. I'm Carol.
[00:00:07] Jeevan: And I'm Jeevan. Happy New Year, Carol.
[00:00:09] Carol: Happy New Year to you. How are you feeling about 2026? Are we excited? Are we nervous? Do we have New Year's resolutions planned already?
[00:00:18] Jeevan: I feel that every year, New Year's is a cautiously optimistic vibe, like approach with caution, but have some hope. No resolutions on the horizon yet, but I'll develop them over the course of the month. How about you?
[00:00:30] Carol: I am typically not a New Year's resolution person, but every year I do have a goal to increase my protein intake, so we'll see if I'm successful. Last year, I was not. But, you know, it's always a good time to focus on your health for the first week of the year and then forget about it.
[00:00:47] Do you have any exciting plans that you're excited about, things you're looking forward to, new shows, new movies, new stuff?
[00:00:53] Jeevan: Oh my gosh, what a great question. I am looking forward to enjoying some reality tv. Any chance you're a reality TV enjoyer?
[00:01:01] Carol: I am, but I'm not the puzzle, problem-solving kind of reality TV show; I'm more of a Secret Lives of Mormon Wives kind of reality TV show enjoyer.
[00:01:10] Jeevan: As you know, I'm very much a reality TV girl. I cast a wide net, though I'll also dabble in Mormon Wives, but more specifically, I really like competition shows. I like the drama and the strategy, the social element. And what I especially love is when people who compete and who are really successful in the show have powerhouse careers in their day-to-day life. It always surprises me.
[00:01:29] Carol: So I mean, I guess this is a great segue into our guest today. This month, we chatted with Jonathon Braun, a UBC Allard alum and legal Director of the Migrant Workers Center, which is a nonprofit that provides free legal services to migrant workers and those without status in the Lower Mainland.
[00:01:45] Jeevan: Jonathon spoke to us about his work at the Migrant Worker Center, and the realities facing the folks that their team supports. He shared a lot of the uninformed stereotypes that are often placed on migrant populations. And the people who leave their home countries in search of, you know, better lives. But when they come here, are increasingly met with hostile systems.
[00:02:04] Carol: But later in the conversation, we talked to Jonathon about a really fun and exciting part of his life, which is winning Amazing Race Canada earlier this year with his friend and teammate Jesse Harnick. You're not gonna wanna miss it,
[00:02:16] Jeevan: And it was a fan girl moment for me because I actually watched that season, and they were awesome. It was so fun to be able to chat with Jonathon and learn some more of the ins and outs of actually filming Amazing Race Canada. So without further ado, let's jump into the conversation.
[00:02:31] Carol: So, why don't we start off with who you are and what do you do?
[00:02:34] Jonathon: Yeah, so my name is Jonathon Braun. I grew up in the Ottawa area. I've been in Vancouver for 13 years now after coming to UBC, uh, for law school. And I am the legal director at the Migrant Worker Center, which is a local nonprofit that supports migrant workers, including care workers, other migrant workers, and those without status, with free legal services. So mostly in the areas of immigration and employment law.
[00:02:58] Jeevan: And you mentioned moving here to go to UBC. Can you talk about what led you to pursue a career in law? Like, what were some of those early moments in your life where you felt like that was a route that you wanted to take?
[00:03:09] Jonathon: Oh God. I'm not gonna give the most inspiring answer here because it really was. I had a history degree from the University of Ottawa, and I wasn't sure what I was gonna do with it.
[00:03:18] I kind of just came to Vancouver as an excuse to go to UBC. I was travelling around Canada when I was 19. I took the train across Canada. There was this deal for youth to take Via Rail. So I ended up in Vancouver as one of the last stops. People told me that I needed to check out Wreck Beach. So I took the bus to UBC, got off the bus and was walking through campus and was just like, I need to go here.
[00:03:44] And so I was just like, if I do a second degree in Canada, it will be at UBC. I guess this is the inspiring part. 'cause this is a UBC podcast, so this is really good advertising for UBC. But I grew up on a farm, so I'm used to being around nature, and I went to the University of Ottawa, which is a lovely school, but very much in the city, and I think I was just looking for that nature vibe again.
[00:04:06] And so I was like, okay, what's a good reason to explain to my parents that I need to move across the country and go as far away from Ottawa as possible in Canada? And law school seemed like a good excuse. And so that is how I ended up being a lawyer, is I had good marks in my history degree. What did you do with them? Let's go to law school. That's it.
[00:04:24] And then I stuck around, and I'm still a lawyer now. Which is a surprise. I enjoyed law school in so many ways. I had a really fun time, but I kept being like, oh, I don't think this is the career I want. But other than April of the first year, which is not a fun time for anybody in law school, I found it to actually be really fun. It was like friendly high school.
[00:04:43] Carol: So you're going through law school, you're like, I don't know. What clicks for you of like, oh, I think I actually. Do wanna do this as a career, and specifically, I have an interest in migrant work. Walk me through that decision.
[00:04:57] Jonathon: So I went to law school thinking I wanted to work in immigration law or refugee law. That was always an interest of mine. So I actually, when I got into law school, Me and my dad drove across the country together and, and when I got to Calgary, I got into a master's program in England that I had been really wanting to get in and that was in forced migration, refugee studies.
[00:05:16] And so then, and I had been waitlisted and then I finally got in, and so the orientation week, I was honestly just sick the entire time, 'cause I was so stressed out about like. Do I go to law school, or do I go do this master's? And yeah, so I was just panicking and not really sure what was gonna happen.
[00:05:32] And then I ultimately decided to stick with law school. And so I always knew that I wanted to get involved in that type of field in some way, whether that be a lawyer or something else. I had articles lined up after law school, and there were some areas that I was interested in that weren't necessarily immigration.
[00:05:47] And then it fell through at the last minute. I had went on to Warsaw for my final semester, came back thinking I had of a job, and suddenly I didn't. So I was a little panicked. And then I saw a posting for a legal advocate position, so not an articling position, but an advocate position at a nonprofit called West Coast Domestic Workers Association, which is what Migrant Workers Center used to be called.
[00:06:08] And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, how did I not hear of this organization in law school? They do immigration law. They work with folks who have been marginalized and provide free legal services, which was always appealing to me. So it was just this perfect position that just appeared outta nowhere, and then, I think because I wasn't so stuck on being a lawyer, so for those who don't know, you need to article for a year after law school to become a lawyer. A legal advocate is not an articling position, even though I did a lot of the same work. And so if I was dreaming of becoming a lawyer, was really like a stall in that process.
[00:06:41] But it was very much in line with why I came to law school and with what I wanted to do. And so yeah, so I took the position, I worked there for two and a half years, loved it, stayed longer than I planned to and then I was like, I guess I should article. And so, so then I articled in a union-side labour firm, very lovely people and doing work that I also enjoyed. 'Cause in working at West Coast, I also did employment law, and then I realized I really liked employment law, and so then when I searched for articles, I searched for employment labour stuff. And then I came back to the organization three years later.
[00:07:15] So I think it just clicked through, getting into practice and just really trying to remember to stay true to why I came and what I wanted to do. And this position presented itself, and that's when it just kind of clicked. It's like, oh, this is what I wanna do. And I think when I went away and articled, as I said, I'm getting an amazing education, I am having an amazing mentorship here, but it's not where I see myself, you know, five, 10 years from now.
[00:07:41] And then the opportunity presented itself to go back to the nonprofit as a lawyer. And now I'm the legal director there. So it's been a nice, nice trajectory, but it did not click in law school. And that's okay if you're in law school and you're just not clicking, it's okay.
[00:07:56] Jeevan: I'm curious about, in terms specifically in your work with migrant workers, what are some of the key and major challenges that you see folks tackling now, and perhaps how has that changed since you started working in the field?
[00:08:09] Jonathon: Yeah, I mean, I think some of the problems that people are facing are annoyingly the exact same problems that existed when I started. Our temporary foreign worker system is based on a model that effectively makes people vulnerable to abuse. So when people come to Canada under their program, they have a work permit that ties them to one employer. So they're only allowed to work for the one employer. And you know, for those listening who are permanent residents or open work permit holders or citizens, if you have a bad situation with an employer, you can just leave, right?
[00:08:42] Like you can just be like, this isn't for me, you're not treating me right. I'm gonna leave, and then it maybe like also take legal action afterwards, but at least you can get outta the situation first. And so that doesn't exist for temporary foreign workers. They can quit, but they're not legally allowed to work anywhere else.
[00:08:58] Right? And so if they do quit, then they're unemployed. And if something happens within their first few months of employment and they need to leave, they can't even collect employment insurance to support them while they try and look for another job and get another work permit, which can take months.
[00:09:11] Months isn't kind of impossible. Now, with some recent immigration changes, it's very hard to find an employer who is able to hire. So we've been advocating in organizations across the country and migrant worker groups. Migrant workers themselves have been advocating for years that the closed work permit system has to go, and it still exists. And so that's extremely frustrating to see that everybody who works with migrant workers agrees that the system is inherently abusive. A UN special rapporteur said that it creates a breeding ground for modern forms of slavery, and I've seen people experiencing modern slavery in my job because of the closed work permit system.
[00:09:51] And so it's very frustrating to know what the problem is, to present what the problem is to government after government, and they hear this from everybody, and nothing much being done. There's been some improvements to the care worker program. They announced PR and arrival for care workers last year, so if somebody comes as a care worker, they would arrive with PR, which is great, that's something that we've been calling for, but practically it hasn't actually happened because there's such limited spots in the program. They haven't actually opened it up for people from outside of Canada to, to apply to, so, so they've announced PR on arrival, but they haven't actually done it. They made sector-specific work permits for care workers, so that was an improvement. So they would just have a care work permit. And then they could find different jobs with different care worker employers. So that, that was an improvement to the program. Not as far as we wanted it to go, but that's the only industry that we've really seen that in.
[00:10:43] We have construction workers, retail workers, fast food, truckers, and agricultural workers still stuck in really abusive situations. Some nuance to the agricultural workers, depending on the program. But yeah, we still see a lot of the same stuff that I saw 10 years ago, and so that's really frustrating.
[00:11:00] There's been some minor improvements to things, but also recently, things have gotten a lot worse. The federal government increased the immigration numbers quite significantly following COVID. So there was almost a bit of rhetoric from the government of the motto that a lot of migrant justice organizations say, " good enough to work, good enough to stay."
[00:11:19] And there was almost a bit of that language coming from the federal government. Not fully saying that, but almost kind of hinting at that. That's where the route that they were going. And then there was this huge pushback from the public and the cost of living crisis, and who's the scapegoat? It's migrants. Right? Who are often living in shared housing and aren't buying up condo complexes and stuff, but, and who are actually the ones building the properties in a lot of cases, but they're blamed.
[00:11:45] And now the government's going the opposite direction and making it really difficult for people to come to Canada, but also really difficult for people to stay. And that's where we're seeing a lot of the difficulty. It's like it's one thing to say, Hey, we need to limit the number of people coming into Canada. But they've also made it really hard for people who came to Canada in those times because the government was saying, we want you. And now they're making it really hard for those people to stay. But those people have built their lives here. They brought their families here in many cases. Some of them have escaped really bad situations in their home countries, and now the government's making it really hard for them to get the new work permit, extend their stay. And that's where we're seeing a lot of new forms of abuse from predatory recruiters, predatory immigration representatives and predatory employers taking advantage of that new precarity.
[00:12:32] And so we're seeing a lot more abuse in people selling jobs or things like that. And also a lot of people falling outta status, which makes them more vulnerable to abuse because an employer is like, well, if you report me, I report you to the immigration. So, very difficult to see things are happening lately with some of these new immigration changes.
[00:12:49] Yeah, that's a very depressing answer, but that's honestly what it feels like right now. I am only witnessing this from a very privileged perspective where I get to see all the problems, but I don't actually have to face 'em myself. But, even from this very privileged position, it's very demoralizing in many ways to see what's happening and to see the really stark, quick change that's happened with the government, and they know there's abuse, but they're not providing the supports on the other end to, to try and lessen that abuse.
[00:13:14] I wish I could provide a bit more of a hopeful answer, but that is where we're at in Canadian immigration law right now.
[00:13:21] Carol: So things aren't looking good.
[00:13:22] Jonathon: Yes. It sucks right now. But on the flip side, there's a lot of really great work being done by migrant justice organizations across the country. There's lots of organizing happening, and we will fight back. The migrant community will fight back against these changes, and hopefully, the government will see that migrants are not the enemy. Bad policy and bad actors are the enemy, like the recruiters and employers who take advantage of migrant workers rather than always going after migrants themselves, who are often just here to try and make a better life for them and their families.
[00:13:54] Carol: This is probably gonna add to the really depressing question, answer, combo, but some people fall into a trap of blaming migrants, immigrants, just generally, what is something that you want people to know about these realities that migrant workers face in Canada and with the law?
[00:14:11] Jonathon: We want people to remember is when they're hearing numbers of people coming in, that there's human beings on the side of those stories. People who came to Canada usually following the means that the Canadian government sent out for them to legally do so, and just trying to look out for themselves, trying to look after their family.
[00:14:29] And they came to Canada with the story that most people, obviously not all, came to Canada with, so just trying to remind people of the humanity behind these decisions, that it's not just like,
[00:14:41] We need a hundred thousand people to leave Canada. That's so easy to just riff off as a number, but that's a hundred thousand families, right? That's a hundred thousand lives plus their dependents that are being affected in really harmful ways.
[00:14:53] a lot of people sell their properties, sell all their belongings to afford these illegal recruitment fees expecting one thing and then to have that turn on its head. You know, if that happened to you, listener, you would not be okay with it.
[00:15:05] Actually take a moment to think about how this might affect people and whether or not your opinion changes to what the policy should be. At least try and look at the folks that are affected with a bit of grace and humanity, and they're not the enemy.
[00:15:17] They're not the reason our housing prices are so high. There's a lot of factors that go into that. Actually, think about what the problem is and stop blaming the migrant who's trying to just make a life for themselves and have a little bit more heart.
[00:15:30] Jeevan: Could not have said that better myself. We are gonna make a bit of a hard pivot here. There's not really a seamless way to do this, so I'm just gonna acknowledge it. So switching gears here. Did anything interesting happen this year in your life? Anything notable different? Do I recognize you from somewhere?
[00:15:47] Jonathon: Well, yeah, there was this CBC interview that I did. You might have seen me on this podcast that I did about, is that what you're talking about?
[00:15:53] Jeevan: Something like that?
[00:15:54] Jonathon: Yes, I was on season 11 of the Amazing Race Canada, with my friend Jesse, and I happened to have won it, which was pretty freaking cool. So, yes, I am one of the winners of Season 11 of the Amazing Race Canada. That is, that is maybe where you recognize me from.
[00:16:08] Jeevan: That is exactly what I was talking about. Congratulations, first of all. So lovely, so wonderful. Can you tell us a bit about the overlap between your time at Allard and Amazing Race? Because I hear that there was some amazing race-style games going on at Allard at the time, and you might've been behind them.
[00:16:26] Jonathon: Yeah, so I have been obsessed with the Amazing Race since I was, I don't know when I came out, I think I was 12 or 13.
[00:16:31] Like Survivor in the Amazing Race. I was full on into to those. So when I babysat kids, I made them run amazing races, and I organized amazing races around Vancouver. In law school, there is something called the Stikeman Scavenger Hunt. So Stikeman Elliott is a business law firm in Vancouver, so not my cup of tea for area of law I want to go into, but lovely people that I got to interact with, and they organized a really fun game during orientation week that first year law students would participate in.
[00:17:00] So I think we came second. I don't think we won, but we made it to the final game. And then the following year, my roommate was in charge of organizing, in collaboration with Stikeman, the Stikeman scavenger hunt, and then I was like, can I help? 'cause that sounds fun. And so I helped organize the Stikeman scavenger hunt in year two and three. We'd have all the first years running around campus doing silly games and then coming back to law school for awards and stuff. It was so fun and so silly. I also applied for the Amazing Race Canada while I was in law school. Three years, going with my friend Tessa, a law classmate. So. Yeah, lots of Amazing Race joy happening in law school,
[00:17:36] Carol: So I feel like what you're really saying and is that the reason you were able to get through law school was because of Amazing Race Canada.
[00:17:45] Jonathon: Yes. You know, as I said, law school was fun. And I think part of that was there was so many fun little events.
[00:17:51] Like I was big into the Law review, which is like this like theatre show, comedy theatre show where you make fun of law and professors and students and stuff in a joyful way. There was the guile debate, which they don't do anymore, sadly, but it was like a stand-up comedy thing. So I was one of the finals for that. There was the Trike race. See, it wasn't like I was a very average law student, but I have a very good record with silly games. Like I was the most valuable tiker in the trike race at law school. But yeah, those little joyful moments really made it so fun to go through the process, even if I wasn't sure what I was gonna do with it on the other side.
[00:18:24] Carol: I feel like this is meant to be a plug for UBC, but did you learn anything from those games, the standup, the theatre stuff in these activities that brought you joy during a very depressing law moment in your actual legal career? Like, were there similarities where you're like, oh, the law is theatre, law as a standup show? Anything like that?
[00:18:45] Jonathon: Oh, well, I'm not doing it this year, but I often have done the lawyer show, which is a musical theatre production put on by members of the legal community as the actors and the band. I like to call it amateur theatre professionally done because you have professional choreographer, professional sets, professional music director, professional director, and then a bunch of lawyers in the roles, but a lot of lawyers are wannabe actors, like lawyers are performers. And I think a lot of lawyers are people that wanted to go into theatre or wanted to go into acting, and then their parents were like, no. You're gonna, you're gonna do a career that's a little bit more guaranteed, that you can actually earn a living. And so you're not gonna follow your dreams. You're gonna do the other thing. You're gonna do that other thing you enjoy. And instead of performing on stage, you're gonna perform in a courtroom.
[00:19:37] So another plug, go see the lawyer show they're doing Nine to Five next year. And yeah, so law is a lot, it's a lot of thinking on your feet. I did improv in high school, and I will say that is one of the best decisions ever is doing improv. You learn so many skills, and then I got to play with those skills in law school. I did a fake trial. I did this performance stuff, and those skills really do help you in your legal career.
[00:20:02] It's, you know, you learn how to think on your feet, you learn how to switch gears really quickly. You know, when I'm in court or in a litigation, I'm not like acting, but I feel very confident in those settings because of the acting experience, right? I'm not shy; like I performed in front of hundreds of people, I can perform, quote unquote perform in front of a judge, or have that pressure. So I definitely think those skills are something, you know, especially if you're wanting to go into litigation, are really helpful.
[00:20:30] If you're not a litigator, but you're just speaking with a client and feeling comfortable, sharing information, feeling comfortable speaking, talking through things and trying to make things clear for people, I think that's all. Those are all like really valuable skills to have and will benefit you in whatever type of legal career you choose.
[00:20:48]Jeevan: I'm curious about in comparison to the amazing races that you were organizing to the Amazing Race Canada and filming. What was the biggest difference for you, or what was the thing that surprised you the most about either the cadence of the show or something that was challenging about it or different about it that you didn't expect?
[00:21:06] I think one of the really happy surprises about the Amazing Race Canada is how real it is. I was on a dating show like 10 years ago, Blind Dates Canada. My date did not get aired. It was just a really chill date. I don't think there was sparks, but there wasn't anger either, so it just wasn't the most interesting date to air. So that's fine. So I saw behind the curtain a little bit in that experience, but this is a whole other scale of production. And so seeing behind the curtain of the Amazing Race Canada, but just seeing how real it is and how much they really care about showing an authentic experience. Growing up watching reality TV, you always care and like, I hope this is real, but maybe it's all rigged. And so experiencing it and realizing, nope, this is real. They're just letting us do what we wanna do, and we have control over everything here.
[00:21:53] And if we make a mistake, they're gonna let us. And if we do things really well, then that's great for us, but they're not helping us along the way. That was really cool to see. Can you imagine how depressing that would be if you in like, I was so, in love with this stuff for literal decades, finding out it was real was really lovely.
[00:22:08] I think the biggest difference about the cadence, though, is it's so intense, and then it stops, right? Like, you get to the pit stop, and then you're like, I just had the most intense day of my life 10 times over 'cause there's 10 legs and then all of a sudden it's done. And then you wait a bit, right? You wait your time until the next leg starts. And then you're starting the next leg, and then it's all intense again. And so there was this really stop-and-go or these moments where you're waiting for your flight in an airport, and you're racing there, you're trying to get to the airport so you can be on the first flight, and then you get there, and then you're like, oh, I guess the flight's in a few hours. So now we're just chilling.
[00:22:43] And so I think those moments were really destabilizing. It's just really the most intense to the most chill, the most intense. And at no point during filming was I ever actually chill? I describe it as the feeling of having a 10-pound weight on my chest for the full filming period and just never fully being able to relax.
[00:23:01] Even in the moments where we just finished the leg in first and should be able to chill out for a bit. But you can't. I think one of the exciting things about the Amazing Race is no leg is predicated by the leg before it, right?
[00:23:11] Like if you are in first place, one leg. You can be in last, the next one, and you can be eliminated. We had this amazing record; we won the first three legs. The fourth leg was a non-elimination. So maybe this is a bad example, but we could have theoretically been eliminated on four, right? And that's just the way she goes. So I think that aspect of it, it just makes you. I've never felt that type of pressure. Like I've had stressful work situations and things like that, but to never feel like you can actually relax was a very intense feeling.
[00:23:43] And so I think the games that I organize last a day. Or I organize my own little Big Brother game where we rent a big house in Chilliwack, and we play a game of Big Brother over a weekend. It's very nerdy and very fun. I've never played that, but I've put other people through that trauma, and they talk about this too; they're like, oh my God, it was three days of like intensity, because the people who make it all the way to the end don't get to relax at all. They're just like in it for three days, but it's three days, right? And so I had to deal with this for a lot longer than three days. And that was, that was a lot. But very fun. So much fun. I do suggest. I think by the time this airs, the deadline to apply will have passed; it's December 15th. But if you're listening to this in the future, apply for season 13. If they're, yeah, if, if we're fortunate enough to keep watching this, keep watching Amazing Race Canada. Then, season 13, it's your season.
[00:24:35] Carol: How do you tell people who you are and what you do in a sentence or something?
[00:24:40] Jonathon: Ooh, the Jon Braun elevator pitch. I always like to say I'm Jon Braun from Woodlawn. I do love a little limerick moment. But yeah, one of the things I care about a lot is community. And I like to think that shows up in a lot of the things I do across the spectrum. I love organizing events for people. Bringing people together, helping people find bonds with each other, creating opportunities for people to find their people, is something that I really care about a lot.
[00:25:05] And I think part of the reason I like to organize games or events. During Pride, we invite everybody to Cat Lake, where we all go on floaties for a day and it's turned from 20 of us to like 200 people going every Pride Friday.
[00:25:18] But I think that's also the reason that I like to do the work that I do. There's a lot of community in that work, and just showing up for people who have literally have to leave their communities to our society's benefit. And I think that's one of the things that catches my breath a lot with my job, is I work with a lot of care workers and they literally leave their children to take care of Canadian children. So that they can afford to pay for the care of their children back home, or have an opportunity to get permanent residence in Canada. And the sacrifices these people have made. And if I, in my work, can provide a bit of comfort to people, a bit of care and show them that there's somebody who has their back 100%. And you know, that's our job as lawyers, the zealous advocate they call it.
[00:26:01] But it's just really showing up for somebody and helping guide them through a process. Helping them find their own power in a process, and being that support for somebody as they're navigating something. I think that's a really beautiful part of the work that I get to do. And I think that's a bit of a through line and what I see value in outside of my work life, too. Community, there's my word.
[00:26:24] Carol: What if we called you Jonathon Braun, the bond binder?
[00:26:29] Jonathon: Sure. Love that. John Braun from Woodlawn, the bond binder. There we go.
[00:26:34] Jeevan: You mentioned reality tv, competition tv. I am also an enjoyer of Survivor. And so my question for you is, who's your like all time player for Survivor?
[00:26:44] Jonathon: Ooh.
[00:26:44] Jeevan: Do you have one?
[00:26:45] Jonathon: I think it's season 7 and 20, Sandra.
[00:26:48] Jeevan: Sorry, I just had to ask. I was so curious.
[00:26:51] Carol: What is your elevator pitch to convince me to start watching Survivor?
[00:26:55] Jeevan: Wow.
[00:26:56] Jonathon: Oh gosh. Well, your job is to interview people, well, what you're doing right now is you're listening to my answers and kind of finding a way to navigate that and reading me, reading people. And so I think if you enjoy that, aspect of your job, of getting to know people and getting to see how people, what makes 'em tick, how they act. Survivor is pitched as like the ultimate social experiment, and especially those early seasons, it is, right? You're watching a bunch of people dropped into an island, and they have to navigate social dynamics. They have to navigate challenges in surviving each other and surviving the elements. But really, it's about the social dynamics and just the crazy things that happen, I think is something that you genuinely would enjoy.
[00:27:35] And I think if you need to get hooked on it, YouTube Eric gives up his immunity necklace and seeing how those four women just play this guy so beautifully. It is Peak cinema. Watch that clip, and you will be hooked.
[00:27:50] I will say, I don't know if you watched The Amazing Race Canada. But my favourite moment because of my love for Survivor and stuff, there was this, so we were gonna be U-turned. There was a team with an express pass, which means you get to skip a challenge, and Jesse's off chatting with people, and I'm like, I need to do something.
[00:28:08] And I just talked a team into giving us their express pass so that we could bypass a challenge. We didn't end up actually needing it. But when that happened, like I just had my like survivor moment, right?
[00:28:18] Jeevan: Outwit, outplay, outlast moment
[00:28:20] Jonathon: I was like, I just had my moment.
[00:28:22] Jeevan: Such a good move. Such a good move.
[00:28:24] Jonathon: Yeah, I was very proud of that.
[00:28:25] Carol: I love it.
[00:28:28] Jeevan: That was such a fun conversation. It was so interesting to hear about Jonathon's journey and all the critical work that he's been doing with and for migrant workers, and also, of course, for me to nerd out on reality TV lore. What part of the interview stood out for you, Carol?
[00:28:42] Carol: I mean, I think especially in these political times, it's really important to remember what's happening in the world, the rights of migrant people. There's a lot of anti-immigrant sentiments happening, um, from various groups. And so I think the interview itself, just from just listening to an expert reminding us that they are real people with real lives and they're not just statistics.
[00:29:04] Everything he says is something that I'm constantly reading on the news, and it's really easy to distance yourself from that. But to meet somebody whose whole day-to-day is dealing with the violence against migrant people was really nice in a sad way. What about you?
[00:29:20] Jeevan: I feel like it was similar. This was one of those interviews where you and I were just like nodding really aggressively the whole time as Jonathon was talking. Feeling a lot of alignment with what he was saying and a lot of agreement with what he was saying. And being able to demystify these kind of stereotypes and false perceptions of folks who are disproportionately impacted by violence. And I think especially hearing about how he built a career where he didn't have to feel that sort of ethical dissonance was really fascinating, and still being able to balance making a living and how that tied into his time at Allard and the opportunities that he was able to kind of leverage from his time there was really cool.
[00:29:54] Carol: Do you think you'll go to law school after we talk to him?
[00:29:57] Jeevan: Jury's still out on that one, but it, the wheels did get turning, so stay tuned. Maybe we might get an exclusive on the podcast, too, now. But before we close out the episode, we just wanted to take a moment and say, happy New Year to all of you, our lovely listeners. Thanks for rocking with us in 2026, and you'll hear a lot more of me and Carol rambling like this for the foreseeable future. A word to our listeners, Carol,
[00:30:21] Carol: Well, I have nothing to add really other than thank you so much for listening to our voices every week, every month, and if you're not already subscribed, make sure you do, because it's always a good time here. So with that, thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you catch our next episode by subscribing or following our show on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling your feels, please drop us a review. You can find me on Blue Sky at Carol Eugene Park,
[00:30:45] Jeevan: And me on Twitter at Jeevan K Sangha. From here forward is an alumni UBC podcast produced by Kylé McPhedran for Podium podcast company.