Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Speaker: Good morning.

Good morning.

Okay.

Off to the races.

Yes.

Great.

It's beautiful, it's sunny.

Yes.

It's spring here in San Francisco.

I think I said that last time.

Yeah.

Still how it feels.

Tom tried to poison

Speaker 2: me, but

Speaker: I survived and Paul fell
for the oldest trick in the past

, where I put some nice chili baa
on my scrambled eggs this morning.

It looked like,

Speaker 2: Like a red,
like bell pepper paste.

Speaker: Yeah, it does look like that.

It is a hot pepper.

Speaker 2: And then Tom's, Tom did
this thing with his eyebrows where

he raised his eyebrows a few times.

Yeah.

And I knew that I had to try it.

Paul

Speaker: felt that I had hidden this
from him by putting it on the table.

So out of spite, I put a
thick layer all over my food.

And now he is very awake.

Yes.

Speaker 2: My mouth is on fire.

But I'm still alive, you couldn't tell.

Your tricks couldn't get me.

Speaker: enjoyed a nice, savory breakfast.

Yeah.

With just a little bit of umami and
heat from a nice fermented chili paste.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I enjoyed umami
and heat with a little breakfast.

Yeah.

Okay.

Nice try.

Better luck next time.

Okay, yeah.

I have a story.

To chat about today.

So this happened last night.

And it's very loosely tied.

You can tie stoicism to
anything, so bear with me here.

Don't give away the secrets
of our podcast, but go ahead.

It was late.

I had just gone to the gym and I popped
by the Korean corner store called Worry.

Yeah, I know.

To pick up some groceries.

I like worry.

Yeah.

And the, there was this big guy in
front of me in line at the checkout.

Okay.

And and I get into line and he
turns around and he says, excuse me.

And I'm like, oh, excuse me.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And he's you bumped into me
and I notice his teeth are all gold.

And he's you bumped into me,
that's what you say excuse me.

And I was like, okay, I
didn't realize, I apologize.

And then he, and then he just
kept looking, I think he kept, he

was trying to like, pick a fight.

Yeah, he kept trying to make eye contact
with me, I could sense that he was trying

to look at me, he kept turning around.

And I just looked into the
distance, didn't engage.

And and then there was like a, in
this commotion, there was another

person who was like in line when I
got into line, but not quite, and I

like, as I got in, I was like, oh,
I'm sorry, did I cut you in line?

And they're like, oh, no, it's fine.

But then he like, after he checked
out, he turned around and he's

you cut this this lady in line.

I ought to teach you some manners.

Wow.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

And the other person
was like no, it's fine.

And I was like, okay, it's fine.

You go ahead.

And he's I'll see you outside.

Jesus.

Yeah.

Speaker: I would be
like calling the police.

So I thought about it.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: thought about
calling the police instead.

I just, so I let this
person go in front of me.

Yeah.

I like checked out groceries and
spent a long time just like putting

them into my bag and just like
chilling in the grocery store.

Yeah.

I called my Uber cause I
didn't have my Scooter.

Scooter.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And, yeah, and I was like
very careful when I stepped outside.

Okay.

He wasn't, was he there?

And he wasn't there.

Okay.

But yeah.

Wow.

It yeah, it felt very, the whole
ride home, it felt very childish.

I was like replaying in my mind oh,
what if I just punched him in the face.

Punched him in the face.

It was totally, yeah.

And it was so satisfying to have that.

It was very, it reminded me of childhood.

Were you angry?

I was like a little, I remember thinking
like, could I I just reacted very, like

I didn't give him anything to react to.

I was like, Oh, I'm sorry.

I didn't realize I bumped into you.

And yeah, I, yeah I didn't part
of me was replaying all these

versions of myself that were a
little bit more, spiky, punchy.

Yes, totally.

You're

Speaker 3: actually

Speaker 2: fantasizing about it.

Yeah, how cool I would have been.

Curb stomping.

Speaker 4: It was just, yeah, it was just
very funny to to have that experience.

And

Speaker 2: I felt the adrenaline too.

Totally, that's what I was going to say.

I felt it pumping.

I like, thought about it
for a while afterwards.

Speaker: Yeah.

Could be a tough night to
go to sleep afterwards.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: to some degree I was
like, I like, locked my door.

It's just.

Yeah, wow.

Yeah it definitely, I guess
it puts things in perspective.

Yeah.

You're like, I had my
headphones in initially, right?

Very quickly remove my headphones.

It was like, time to take my AirPods out.

The last thing you want to be
is the guy wearing AirPods.

Getting punched in the face.

Yes.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

And also,

Speaker 2: Nobody really people, after
the guy left the store, people were

like, oh, I'm sorry that happened to you.

But no one really, Did anything, right?

Like it was okay, good luck.

Try

Speaker: not to get punched out there.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Like the, the

Speaker: employees did not do anything.

I say,

Speaker 2: in fact, the employee,
there was this weird thing

where the the checkout clerk?

Yeah, gave him like a
handshake beforehand.

Oh, I see.

Like I say, created teams.

So maybe there was a sense of team
or I think what happened was like,

these guys are terrified of having,
I see this dude, this guy be on

the like, angry with them, right?

Yeah.

Like he, he said, I don't know, there's
a lot of crazy people in San Francisco.

Yeah.

So they were like.

Watching out for their own backs.

Yeah, I say, instead of
their clientele's backs.

Speaker: That seems a little short sighted
to me, but I guess I understand it.

Okay.

Just be honest with me here.

Could you have taken this guy to fuck?

No, this guy's six.

Speaker 2: I was going to say how
big he's probably been in fights.

He probably knows how to do this.

That was the thing.

Yeah, that's the gold teeth, man.

Yeah, that was the thing.

I the fantasies are very sweet, right?

All these versions, right?

Totally, yes.

But I couldn't quite figure out
anything, even semi realistic.

You couldn't convince
yourself at all, yeah.

I was like, trying to imagine was there
any object I could have picked up?

Because I can't punch this
guy with my bare hands.

Spicy chili paste that
you throw in his eyes.

Blow into his eyes.

No, but there was, that was the thing.

I couldn't find any satisfying, semi
realistic version of this fantasy.

Yeah.

The best one I came up with was me
running around so he couldn't catch me.

Yeah,

Speaker: I can see how that's a
child like fantasy for sure, yes.

Speaker 2: Yeah, or like
pulling down shelves.

Yeah.

Speaker: That does seem pretty fun.

That was the

Speaker 2: coolest one I came up with.

Yeah.

In my head.

Speaker: Yeah.

All the

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Just like opening bags of
chips and throwing them Yes.

Exactly.

Yes.

All

Speaker: the whatever
fun flavors of chips.

Yeah.

Falling down.

Cascading.

Yes.

Crashing down on it.

There's only three
aisles in that store too.

That's true.

All three of

Speaker 2: them.

Speaker: Yes.

Exactly.

Knocked down was my rage.

You could just decimate the whole
store in two seconds of pushing two

Speaker 2: aisles over
in either direction.

No, but there, but besides that,
there was nothing that I don't like.

I haven't been a, in a
fight since middle school.

You were in a fight in middle
school before I joined Blake.

Oh, I see, okay.

Where I just got repeatedly kicked
in the balls . That wasn't really

a, like they were in the fight.

I was a recipient of a fight.

Of a fight.

Ouch.

Okay.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

It's been a while, I'm a little rusty.

Speaker: You feel that at one point,
you were in your prime fighting state.

I was in my prime fighting state, yeah.

Yes, okay, and those days are behind you.

Speaker 2: I actually never
hit anyone, I was just hit.

Yeah, that sucks.

That's all I remember, yeah.

Speaker: That's awful.

Were you

Speaker 2: not beat up at all?

Not really, isn't

Speaker: that amazing?

Speaker 2: You went to Blake though.

Not my whole life, but, yeah.

Yeah, you went to the
international school before that.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker 2: Was the international
school a rough place?

No.

Okay.

No, it was bad.

Speaker: Not for third or
fourth graders or whatever.

Yeah.

I was, I lived a pretty
fighting free life, basically.

Yeah.

I think my brother and
I wrestled a little bit.

But we never really beat each other.

There was never really any

Speaker 2: I am physically hurting.

Actually.

I don't know what that word is like.

It's like roughhousing turned into actual
holy shit, this person wants to hurt me.

Yes, exactly.

That person really wants to hurt me.

Speaker: I remember.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Getting into a snowball fight at
one of our elementary school classmates

houses that kind of turned into that
energy of oh shit, am I safe right now?

I know that feeling.

Yeah.

That's the only time I really
ever remember feeling that turn.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: It's very human,

Speaker 2: right?

It's a very kind of

Speaker: real feeling.

Yeah, you go somewhere deep in your
brainstem and you're like, oh, what?

Speaker 2: And I know what that
feels like when the flip switches.

Yeah,

Speaker: totally.

Speaker 2: The only other
example I remember of getting

beat up was in the Netherlands.

I was like, I think I was
just like a weird kid, right?

I was just like, not Dutch, and I
had this big woman's bicycle . Okay.

Interesting that I, that was like not
cool because it was like, so there's a big

difference, Tom, the masculine bicycle.

I know that has a bar that's, I know.

How about the bar works?

Oh, yeah.

But you have a low bar because
you're So I had a low bar.

Speaker: You have a dress
that you have, so I'm a mini.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: I was riding my women's
bicycle and these three boys like.

Yes, I see.

Yeah, yes, because

Speaker: obviously boys who ride
girl bikes need to be stopped.

They

Speaker 2: need to be

Speaker: taught a lesson.

Yes, okay.

Something like that.

Are they the ones who kicked you in the
balls or was that a separate incident?

No,

Speaker 2: that was in America.

That was in my public
American high school.

I see.

Or middle school.

I see.

But the the, yeah, no,
that one I don't remember.

Maybe there was some ball
kicking involved, I'm not sure.

Speaker: They beat you up though?

Yeah, they beat me up.

So I have a lot of experience.

You have way more experience of
being beaten up than I realized.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: But never the other way around.

I've never, I don't think I've ever

Speaker: Have you ever felt the urge?

Yes.

To beat someone up?

Speaker 2: When you're getting beat up,

Speaker: you very much
want to hurt them back.

Yes, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

I guess I meant, Organically,
has that ever occurred to you?

Boy, it would be nice
to beat this person up.

Have you ever considered that?

Only

Speaker 2: in my fan Like, last night in
the Uber ride home, Gazing into the, Yeah.

Yeah.

And then Call up my buddies.

Tom and David show up with baseball bats.

Round

Speaker 5: nunchucks, yeah.

Yeah, good stuff.

Yeah that's fun.

Speaker: I'll get them next time.

Yeah that'll wake you up.

Yes, I do think that will
linger with you for a while.

Yeah.

It's not, this is not totally the
same thing, but when I first moved

to San Francisco, we had a, I had a
thing where a guy spit in my face.

Oh yeah!

And I had a similar, he didn't
stop beating me up, but.

I had, I walked home the same way,
being like, what could I have?

What could I have done?

This tendency to replay
the whole situation.

And like you, I was just extremely.

boring and neutral.

Totally.

I could

Speaker 4: have said, Hey, deescalatory

Speaker: the whole time.

Which creates all this lovely space
for fantasizing about saying even

something lightly confrontational.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5: Just slightly conversational.

Yeah.

Which I did not do.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

No, the most fantastic version of my
My wildest dreams was like, I would

walk back slowly and pull a shelf down.

Yes.

Speaker: It would have been amazing.

Yeah, ideally there's some
sort of chandelier over him.

Yes.

That's, that, yeah.

That's the sort of, yeah.

That's what

Speaker 2: we're hoping for.

Found a pipe.

Yeah.

That would be the only other option.

Speaker: Yeah.

Did you, this is maybe too much to ask.

Do you think about Marcus at all?

Was there a stoicism feeling
that came to you or comes to

you now as we talk about this?

Speaker 2: The only thing I, the thing
that was related to it was I was thinking

about how rarely I feel this way.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And how I just
take safety for granted.

Totally, yeah.

And I don't assume there's someone outside
the grocery store who wants to beat me up.

So I suppose, yeah, taking
things for granted is a trying

not to is a stoic philosophy.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.

That does feel like, Marcus talks a
lot about forgiving these stupid people

who are all mixed up all the time.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: He's not getting bullied.

He's not,

Speaker 2: He is, actually.

You remember that story where at
the theater, where people make

Speaker: fun of him for being a cuckold?

Yes, I do remember that.

I guess we never see that in the text.

We know that subtextually.

But he never really engages with someone
is antagonizing, is picking on him.

How should you treat them?

I don't feel like I know what his, I mean
he's just gonna say that's their problem.

And you should just do whatever
it is that you're obligated to do.

But Marcus and Line at the

Speaker 2: grocery store.

Let's see what that would have been.

I think he would have done And first
of all, he's the Emperor of Rome.

Yeah,

Speaker: exactly.

The problem is this has never
happened to him in his whole life.

Or, except that it has,
but in ways that are

Speaker 2: A little bit more subtle.

Speaker: Yeah.

And complex.

Yeah, exactly.

This is a very simple scenario.

Yeah, totally.

It's such a basic kind of human
interaction in a way that it feels

like maybe it's just beneath him.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: That was the other
problem with all my fantasizing.

Cause I kept coming back to
how this guy must be very

unhappy and I feel bad for him.

I kept coming back to who knows
what's going on in this guy's life.

Which is not a fun fantasy.

Totally, yeah.

I agree.

It's not enjoyable.

It would be better if he was

Speaker: a villain.

Just a bad guy.

Just give me a regular bad guy.

Yes, I agree.

I also really cannot construct
those fantasies, unfortunately.

I think the thing I
would've fan Sydnee know.

I know it's so lame because we're both
gonna get on our girls' bikes afterwards.

I think that, I feel like for me, this
is just speculation, but I feel like

I would've very quickly gone to the
fantasy of what thing could I have said?

Said to humiliate him.

Yeah.

'cause yes, that, so that's true.

All the physical stuff is
just beyond so impossible.

Like immediately.

But maybe I could have.

In a really good moment, come up with
something that really embarrassed him.

I think that's the ceiling for manners.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.

I I don't know what it is.

I don't know what you can say.

I ought to teach you some manners
once you make a good comeback.

Speaker: Yeah I ought to
teach you some manners.

That was a good one.

You're the one.

You're the one that you need

Speaker 2: manners.

Yeah.

There you go.

That would've taught him.

Yeah.

After that he would've gone home.

Maybe you kick him in the ball.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

It was also in that moment that I realized
I have no, like martial arts training.

Oh, yeah.

Like I have nothing.

I have nowhere to even start.

Like I useless.

I don't, yeah.

Yes.

I know how to kick someone in the balls.

Yeah, for sure.

That's about it though.

Gouge their eye out or something.

Yeah, but I have, no, I don't.

I've never, for example, like
very, I guess I've tried to

trip people before . Yeah.

I think we did this in like middle school.

We had a thing in middle

Speaker: school about tabletopping people.

Yes.

So I guess ideally next time text me.

I'll text you.

You'll show up.

You'll crawl up.

I'll crawl up my knees into this
door and then stand behind him

and then you can push him over.

Yeah.

That's a plan A.

I agree.

That is probably the martial
art I'm the most used to doing.

Familiar with, anyway.

Being the table.

Yeah.

Or either side.

Either one, yeah.

Perfectly comfortable.

You're so flexible.

Even the size of the tabletop situation.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yes.

I theoretically took karate as a kid.

Wow!

Do you think that translated to anything?

No, it does not.

Speaker 3: You nodded.

Speaker: No, I do not know how to

Speaker 2: do

Speaker: anything.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

The, okay, sorry.

The last thing on this.

Yeah I went through all my
physical prowess, all the

things I think I know how to do.

And I came back to one thing I think
I know how to do, which is to bear

hug someone from the back and clasp
my arms together really hard so that

they can't like move their arms.

I see.

Speaker: And then you're just
gonna hold them that way.

And

Speaker 2: that's the end of the plan.

Beginning and end of the

Speaker 5: plan.

Interesting.

Speaker: And.

I think that feels like the
beginning of a wrestling move to me.

And I feel like there has to be a stage.

No, I have no follow up.

I think the ideal, this
might be too much to ask.

Yeah.

There's a wrestling move called a
suplex that I just learned about

that name recently, where you do
exactly the thing you just described.

Yeah.

And then you flip backwards
and smash their head into

the ground like, oh my God.

You're like, it's like a
backwards bear hug slam thing.

Speaker 2: feel like that's
what he would do to me.

Speaker: Yeah.

I agree.

I don't if his.

You have to be really strong.

Yeah.

But anyway,

Speaker 2: this guy's six or five.

Speaker: The good news is his head
would definitely hit the ground.

But first, I think if I could flip, yes.

And you have to lift him off the ground.

You got like a full back chance.

Yeah.

Speaker 5: agree.

I don't think

Speaker 2: this would work at all,
but no, the end of my plan was that.

He would never be able to take me off.

That was the plan.

And then the police arrive.

And then the police
would eventually arrive.

And somehow extract you.

Give me a medal of honor.

A bleeding, a purple heart.

They tie him up

Speaker: while you're still holding him.

That's right.

And then slowly you can remove your arms.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

That was the plan.

That was the most like, physical
that I got in, even in my fantasies.

Yeah.

Speaker: I don't think you
could, I don't even really think

that first date would work.

Yeah.

Exactly.

I think.

Maybe, but I think people's
ability to lift their arms up.

Speaker 2: I've been I've been
surprised by how you can grab them by

above the elbow, and there's almost
no torque you have in that position.

Speaker: It has to be
above the elbow, I think.

The issue is that

Speaker 2: then they have their arms
to flail around with, and they still

have their legs it's not a great plan.

And turn their head and move.

Yeah.

Speaker: Like an owl.

Yeah.

What I presume is 270 degrees
of free rotation on his neck.

He's got all

Speaker 5: the teeth.

He's

Speaker 4: taken my nose off.

That was the one part of
the planet that couldn't.

Speaker: Sounds pretty unpleasant.

Yeah.

Yeah, don't do this to an owl,

Speaker 2: okay.

Speaker: And we were

Speaker 2: wondering why we only
read one and a half pages per Welcome

Speaker: to Book Six, Chapter Four.

A million listeners because we
make no progress through this book.

Alright.

But, oh, actually I think that
we this is a, it's a semi related

first entry we have here today.

I think we're in the right place here.

This is book six, entry thirty three.

Perfect.

It's normal to feel pain in your
hands and feet if you're using your

feet as feet and hands as hands.

Wait, did we do this one last time?

I don't know.

Okay.

I would have remembered this.

I'm going to read that again, yes.

It's normal.

It is normal.

This is normal.

To feel pain in your hands and feet.

If you're using your feet as
feet and your hands as hands.

And for a human being to
feel stress is normal.

If he's living a normal human life.

And if it's normal, how can it be bad?

It does feel like, okay, the
first sentence is funny because

it really feels like to me, he is
advocating being like a monkey person

where you use your hands as
feet and your feet as hands.

Speaker 4: The phrasing
is what cracks me up.

The fact that he had to clarify,
like you could have just ended this.

Yes.

It's missing

Speaker: the if clause entirely.

It's normal to feel pain
in your hands and feet.

I'd be like, yep.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, walking a long
time can hurt your feet.

But it's just But he's really emphasizing
He was really worried about the heckler

in the crowd who would be like, Wait!

I have

Speaker: never used my hands, sir.

Speaker 2: I walk on my
hands, and they never hurt.

Yes, and

Speaker: my feet, I used to
feed my feet for a while.

His utensils.

Yeah.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Speaker 2: Yeah, if it's
normal, how bad can it be?

Yeah, I think It's a cool sentiment.

Yeah pain is a part of life.

Pain is a part of life and
being stressed is a part of

life and it's a good reminder.

Yeah.

It's just a phrasing
that I think is funny.

What do you think he meant if you're using
your fetus feet in your hands as hands?

Speaker: I think he's just emphasizing
that pain is a part of normal usage.

Speaker 2: If you're an emperor
who just lays on the couch all day.

Speaker: Oh.

Oh, I see.

Yes, if you're carried on one of
those big things all the time.

Palanquin.

Yeah nice good word.

Thank you.

I'm the resident historian.

Yeah.

I have all kinds of information.

Yeah, you are.

That's a great word.

Thank you.

Yes, okay, so yeah, so part of what
he's emphasizing is if you are having

a common human experience, and not if
you are some out of touch, weird, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Who doesn't use their limbs
the way they were intended.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah,

That's interesting, I'm a little
ambivalent about that reading.

I think there's one reading which
is that, where, I think we have this

concept of working with your hands,
using your hands, means labor, means

not, means being in touch with the
common man, I wonder how much modern

subtext we're reading here, versus just
the very literal, he just means, I am

emphasizing the fact that hands do labor.

Oh this is what hands are for.

Yeah, exactly.

So it's

Speaker 2: almost like a, it's like a,

Speaker: It's like a joke?

Yeah, he's like writing a very
redundant sentence to really

emphasize Assuming you're a person.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I guess I, I am torn between those three.

I don't think there's
that much difference.

Speaker 2: guess the next sentence is,
If he's living a normal human life.

Yes.

Which is again, a situation
where Monkey Man may not

Speaker 4: be living a normal,

Speaker 2: Yes.

Monkey Man has no stress and has no pain.

But that's because he doesn't
use his hands as hands.

Yes.

And he's not living a normal human life.

Okay, so

Speaker: he's setting up a subtle
pitch for this other kind of living,

Speaker 4: basically.

Yeah, whereby.

Yes.

You could forego all misery.

Speaker: Yeah.

No yeah I just interpret this as
he, there's this weird clause on

the first sentence because he's
setting up that second sentence

basically to set to emphasize the
fact that these things aren't normal.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay, cool.

I love this.

Oh, number 34.

I'm

Speaker 2: hoping you have
a good vocabulary for this.

Speaker: I have a question about
it, but let me read it first.

Okay.

Number 34.

Thieves, perverts,
parasites, dictators, colon.

The kind of pleasures they enjoy.

Classic Marcus Entry.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Just not a sentence.

Yeah, not a sentence.

Not even a sentiment.

I don't even, he's describing something.

He wants us to think about, put
something in our mind's eye.

Yes, I think that's

Speaker: right.

Speaker 2: Which are the
pleasures, what is it?

Okay, what is a parasite?

Speaker: That was the question that
I don't, I do not know the answer to.

Is it a parasite?

I, good question.

Maybe it comes from the same root as that.

I will look it up and report
back on this in our next episode.

Parasite, just for the listener,
because I can't resist.

It's spelled P A R I C I
D E, not parasite at all.

Like.

Side

Speaker 2: I wonder if it's Like genocide,
it's not like patricide or whatever?

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: What is para, what
is, what could that be?

P A R A I, not a, really like a
prefix that I'm familiar with.

Yeah.

Peri in general might usually means
like partial or something like that.

But it's not usually spelled this way.

I don't know.

Speaker 2: Anytime Marcus brings up
perverts, though, it's good stuff.

Yeah, I

Speaker: agree.

Yes, perverts.

Perverts are everywhere in this writing.

Yes, there are a lot of
perverts running around.

In Marcus world.

Which, hard to disagree, yeah.

Okay.

What I like about these types of entries
is, There's no Rhetorical like I'm not

even really trying to convince you of it.

Like he's there's no argument

Speaker 3: here.

Yeah, he's

Speaker: just saying
Think about bad people.

This is just a list of kind.

Yeah bad people.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker: and then think about how bad they
are Then that is the some totally when he

says the kinds of pleasures they enjoy.

I assume what he is saying basically
is don't think about what the what

they enjoy which is presumably like The
thrill of stealing something, or lording

power over people, or doing something,

Speaker 2: or watching
young kids, or whatever.

Speaker: So he's saying these
people enjoy messed up things.

Speaker 2: And that's it.

That's the end of the

Speaker: thought.

But I think the subtext is
Remind yourself of how bad weird

and bad they are, basically.

Don't be like those people,
because, Why is it that it's

bad to be that kind of person?

Because those are the
sorts of things they enjoy.

Speaker 2: Oh, I see.

So when you enjoy power, remember
that you're like a dictator.

Yeah.

And when you enjoy little boys, then

Speaker: you're being a pervert.

I think that's right.

I think that's, which in a way
turns this into a weird confessional

almost of I've been having these
types of pleasures recently.

I've been a parasite.

But now let me write in my little book
a reminder not to do those things.

I think that is, but still it's just
totally an appeal to remember that

there are bad people and then remind
yourself what makes them bad people.

And then the next time you do that, remind
yourself that you too are being bad.

You're

Speaker 4: being

Speaker: like those bad people.

Obviously you don't want to be.

Yeah.

The logic of it is somehow
backwards to me where there's no,

to convince someone not to be bad.

There should be some explanation of it.

How and why these people are
being bad, but he omits that part.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Okay.

The other direct application is me sitting
in the back of the Uber daydreaming about

bear hugging this man who insulted me.

Yeah, I'm

Speaker: indulging

Speaker 2: like bully.

If you add bullies to the bullies
to this list or unstable people,

the kind of pleasures they enjoy.

Yes.

Yeah I guess that's what
I would say to myself.

Although it's, it was fun to I
never think about that stuff.

Yeah, I

Speaker: agree.

It doesn't seem unhealthy
to me to have that thought.

I guess for me a good Marcus entry
is something I could say to myself

later in some trying moment.

Yeah.

Where it's oh yeah.

Yeah.

Get some perspective, Tom.

This is not one of them.

Yeah, even if I'm having a dictatorial
pleasure, if this pops into my mind, I'm

not like, ah, yeah, good point, Marcus.

I'm like, yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree.

Yeah,

Speaker: alright.

Not your, I enjoy it.

No, yeah, I appreciate the levity.

You do, you are.

And I do, I will look up that word.

35.

Have you noticed how professionals
will meet the man on the street

halfway, but without compromising
the logos of their trade?

Should we as humans feel less
responsibility to our Logos

than builders or pharmacists do?

A Logos we share with the divine.

Wow.

Speaker 2: Okay, cool.

I'm very interested in this.

Speaker: I, let me offer
my reading of this.

The question is very
interestingly phrased.

Have you noticed how professional, so
I think by professional, Merchants.

Pharmacists and builders and
doctors, I think that kind

of expert is what he means.

We'll meet the man on the street halfway.

So like the person who
doesn't know their trade.

This sounds very literal.

Yeah.

When I first read it, I was like, they're
literally crossing halfway into a street.

But no, he, the man on the street is just
a phrase here, meaning the common person.

And his point is that if you're a
doctor, you will Figure out how not only

what's wrong with your patient But where
you can phrase it in layman's terms

in terms of explanation or whatever.

Yeah, but you do that without
Sacrificing the accuracy.

Like a good doctor meets
the patient where they are.

It's not even halfway.

It's you've, you figure
out where they are and you

Speaker 2: come there.

So as a doctor, you have you,
it's assumed that you're going to

have to dumb down your thinking.

Speaker: Yeah.

Okay.

And and he's admiring that basically
they have done this thing where they

have translated their, the logos
of their profession to this other

person without compromising it.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: And his point is we
all also have those other logos.

That's not our professional
logos, but just our human logos.

That's, who we are and
what we're meant to do.

Can we be like the doctor all the time?

Speaker 2: That's nice.

Speaker: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2: So like never assume
that people understand everything.

Just meet them halfway and that's okay.

Speaker: And it's a way of

not talking down to people like I
think that's what he's describing.

Sure.

Like the doctor could be like,
hey idiot, take these pills.

But he doesn't.

Instead, he's generous to them and
says, here's what you need to know.

I'm not compromising
myself by saying any of

Speaker 2: this.

Speaker: Treat everyone that way.

It's a nice sentiment.

Speaker 2: That is a nice sentiment.

Yeah.

Have you been doing that this week, Tom?

Have you been throwing data, machine
learning jargon at your poor co workers?

Speaker: I think.

This really resonates for me
actually, I really like this

kind of philosophy in general.

I think more of the
world should have this.

You're

Speaker 2: constantly sharing
your logos with the divine?

I feel like that's true.

Speaker: With the divine?

Oh yeah, the logos we share with the,
no, he's, I think that one is not,

that's our human logos, I think that he's
talking about at the end there, should

we as humans feel less responsibility?

Speaker 2: Your PhD in biostatistics
that you share with the divine?

That is.

No, that is the other

Speaker: Logos.

Oh.

The Logos he's talking about at the end
there is the common human Logos, I think.

Should we as humans feel less
responsibility to our Logos?

A Logos we share with the divine.

Speaker 2: Like a common Logos
instead of a personal Logos?

Speaker: So the personal logos that we all
have in common, that's how I interpret it.

It's you have a professional logo that
has to do with your area of specialty,

but you also have the human logos,

Speaker 2: which is, interesting
okay, so you're meeting halfway

between the human logos.

The man on the street and the
professional Logos, which is your Ph.

in Biostatistics from Harvard.

Okay.

Let's quit it.

That part.

Speaker: I,

I guess I'm interpreting it
as we all have many Logos.

Logi.

Logi, sure.

I don't think that's right.

That's right.

Okay.

We all like.

What else would it be?

Loguses?

Just logos, I don't know.

I guess logos.

I don't really like that.

Who's the resident?

Smart ass on podcast?

Guess I dunno.

Okay, fine.

Low guy.

Ugh, I hate that.

Anyway, we all have multiple,
like these things come from.

Different parts of ourselves, there's
a human thing, there's one that all

of us humans have that I think is
the point, that's like a part of our

obligations and who we are and how
we the rules by which we function.

And then you acquire more when you
become a professional or whatever.

And it's not that the first one is like
a part of being stupid or something

like that, it's just like the more
fundamental obligations we have to

each other and that kind of thing.

And so I think it's just, and I'm now,
I don't think it's about those different

logoses meeting each other necessarily,
or that's not how I interpret it anyway.

Alright, I'm being pedantic, fine.

Anyway, I do, I, in general,
I just really this attitude

of it's a way of Meet people.

Yeah, and Or

Speaker 2: don't take for granted.

Be generous

Speaker: without selling yourself out.

There's a way to you can be really
give people the benefit of the doubt.

in a way that is not
at the expense of you.

Speaker 2: What would a doctor do if they
were not, if they were selling themselves

out, if they were selling out their logos?

Speaker: They would sell out medicine.

So they would be like oh wow you,
there's something very special

that's happening with you.

I think your foot is really
different from everything else.

I see.

New theories about it.

Speaker 2: I see.

I see.

Okay.

That makes sense.

Speaker: That's bad medicine, obviously.

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker: Not really doing that.

I see.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker: Yeah, so it's you believe
the patient when they need to be

believed, but also you back on
them when they need to be believed.

I see.

So the patient thinks

Speaker 2: they're a snowflake, and you
just walk them back off that cliff without

Speaker: Yes, you get them
in touch with what the true

thing that you know about is.

Speaker 2: That's a nice sentiment.

Yeah.

Cool.

I dig that

Speaker: one.

Speaker 2: I have a random quote
for you that I thought about

with the word professionals.

Okay.

Business.

So people think that business is when you
sell something to someone who wants it.

Speaker: But

Speaker 2: in reality, business
is when Or sell something you

have to someone who wants it.

But in reality business is when
you sell something you don't have

to someone who doesn't want it.

Speaker 5: Yes, okay, good joke.

Thank you.

I just thought it was funny.

Speaker: Alright, moving on.

Fine, moving on.

Number 36.

This one is a list with some
Obviously this list is not

comprised of full sentences.

Nope.

Asia and Europe, colon, distant
recesses of the universe.

What?

The ocean, colon, a drop of water.

Speaker 2: What is going on?

Speaker: Mount Athos, a molehill.

Okay.

The present, colon.

A split second in eternity.

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker: Minuscule,
transitory, insignificant.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Okay, back to we're small.

Speaker: Yeah, we are
little and insignificant.

Does the first one quite fit that?

The ocean, a drop of water,
Mount Athos, and Mulholland.

I get it.

Asia and Europe, distant
recesses of the universe.

Speaker 2: Yeah, not quite.

It's it's not Far

Speaker: and small are not the same

Speaker 2: thing.

Okay, you better not have.

Speaker: I guess recess implies it's
a little pocket, is what he's saying.

But distance confuses the
issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess if
things were small, then they

would be really close together.

Relative.

If you're a giant looking down on
Earth, then you would think Asia

and Europe are like, are just these,
effectively the same thing, who cares.

Like a little speck of dust.

Speaker: Okay, but, another angle is, we
are small and insignificant, and therefore

Asia and Europe Oh, you're right.

Speaker 2: Far.

Oh, I misunderstood the assignment.

So you're a tiny speck of dust.

Yes.

And you're looking.

Speaker: No.

Then the ocean is huge.

It's not a drop of water.

Oh,

Speaker 2: so we're, it's very confusing.

Speaker: Yeah.

Okay.

We are a giant.

I think no.

It's neither.

It's a confusingly written entry.

Because, yeah I think the
word distant is just does not

really belong here, basically.

That confuses the issue.

If it was just Asia and
Europe, small, little pockets.

Little

Speaker 2: places.

Yeah,

Speaker: Then you'd be like, oh, yeah,
a little, each one is just a little,

Things that we thought
were big are actually

Speaker 2: small, is the theme.

Yes, but then one of them

Speaker: is, things are
farther flung than they seem.

Which is not the same West.

Yeah, so that's nice actually that it
this feels Marcus has done some sort

of first grade homework About like
vocabulary exercise fill in the word.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, the missing one was completes
this pattern Yeah, exactly.

He blew it.

What is not right?

Yeah 420

Speaker 2: on the SAT.

Yeah,

Speaker: okay I usually, I feel like
I really like the policy of being

generous towards Marcus and being
like what did he, this one, Marcus.

You're dumb.

Speaker 3: Yep.

It's okay.

Speaker: Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Okay, oh there's 36 a that's what I
was okay, so that was 36 and now we

have 36 a Everything derives from
it that universal mind either as

effect or consequence The lion's jaw.

Yes, the poisonous substances and every
harmful thing from thorns to mud are

byproducts of the good and beautiful
So don't look at them as alien to

what you revere, but focus on the
source that all things spring from.

Okay, we have a Jaws reference
here, which is lovely.

I think it was a Borg's Jaws last time.

This one's the Lion's

Speaker 2: Jaws.

Okay, so but he's, so he breaks
down the world into effect or

consequence, cause and effect.

Speaker: Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: And the effect.

So Lion's Jaws, poisonous substances.

Thorns and mud are all byproducts, are
all effects of the cause of the good

and beautiful source of all things.

Yeah.

This is complicated.

Speaker: I interpret either
as effect or consequence.

I interpret those as being
basically synonyms, actually.

I don't read that as cause and effect.

I think his, I'm reading this as,
he's postulating there is this thing,

what he calls the universal mind.

Which is like the way the
whole universe functions.

And all the shit that he's
talking about, his point is just,

it's all downstream of that.

Effect.

Not cause.

Consequence.

In fact, to me, those are sentiments.

The lion's jaws, all the bad stuff,
comes about from the good stuff,

because the universal mind is where
all the good stuff comes from, and the

thorns come from the roses or whatever.

Speaker 2: admit that makes more sense.

Speaker: Yeah

Speaker 2: Okay, so don't
look at them in alien.

It's a little

Speaker: weird that he's like he's
yeah they're all byproducts of

the good and beautiful is a little
confusing because it feels like

really the good and beautiful and

Speaker 2: The lion itself
is good and beautiful Tom.

That's the part you're missing.

Speaker: The jaws are ugly, but
the line I thought we had the

what was established earlier.

Is that the flex of?

Not this time around.

Oh,

Speaker 2: you're right the flex of
the Of spit are beautiful, but the jaws

Speaker: themselves.

So the

Speaker 2: jaws are a by product
of the beautiful specks of spit.

Speaker: I say, yes, you have to,
in order to have those beautiful

flecks of spit, you have to have
some sort of table for them to be on.

Yes.

Which is jaws.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Unfortunately.

Yes.

Okay.

And the poisonous substances

Speaker: maybe come from a pretty snake
or something like that, a snake was

pretty, but also it has the poison.

Speaker 2: Thorns come from roses.

That one's the one I'm like, That's
the bedrock of this whole thing.

Without that one, I'd be very lost.

And then mud

Speaker: comes from lovely dirt and
water, I guess there's, I guess water's

nice, but then it turns into mud.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker: So don't look at them as alien
to what you revere, but force focus on

the source that all things spring from.

Yeah.

Okay.

So don't get so hung
up on this thing sucks.

Things, good

Speaker 2: things, bad.

All things are one.

Speaker: Yeah, and you couldn't
have the, it's, the bad stuff is the

necessary part of the good stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's deep.

I think to actually believe
this, you have to be a monk.

But I think it's good to aspire to.

Y yeah.

What's a bad thing?

What's something you really don't like?

And then I'll explain to you why it's
actually good and why you're wrong.

Speaker: Something I really don't like
I guess Like wet socks or something.

Okay, sure, wet socks, that's good.

Speaker 2: Adventure!

You can't go on an adventure
without at least having some chance!

Okay.

But let's talk.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Young Hobbit.

Speaker: Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

So what's something that's
just totally needless?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Bad.

Loud motorcycle noises outside
my apartment when people

are, like, late at night.

Yeah, you're

Speaker 2: right.

There's no, nothing good about that.

Is there any need for that?

No.

I don't think so.

We just broke the universe.

Yeah, okay.

The motorcycle Just break the universe.

Yeah, okay.

There's nothing good.

I look forward to your

Speaker: rejoinder, Marcus, to see

Speaker 2: what happens.

Yeah, if you had just survived
to meet these motorcyclists.

Speaker: Yes.

Okay.

Number 37.

If you've seen the present,
then you've seen everything.

As it's been since the
beginning, as it will be forever.

The same substance, the same form.

All of it.

No, too strong, Marcus.

I don't think you can do it.

I don't agree with this.

This is so intense.

The same form.

Speaker 2: No.

The same form.

Maybe in, if you abstract at five
levels, if you take five derivatives,

I'm sure you could make that up.

That's

Speaker: not the same form.

Yeah.

I think, I feel like he's stated
stronger versions of this same

sentiment before where the point is,
change is permanent and all this stuff

is changing but that is a constant.

Yeah.

And so from that
perspective, nothing changes.

But I disagree with, the present is the
same in substance and form as all of

Speaker 2: It's a very
grandiose statement.

Speaker: Yeah.

It's

Speaker 2: very know it all
and Yeah, I guess it's what

does he know about the future?

Speaker: Yeah, that's a good point.

I, so generously I read this as
Dude is swinging for the fences with

some big grandiose statements, and
sometimes he really connects, and

sometimes it's a foul ball situation
where he like mostly gets it, but

it's not quite as good as the other
ones, and this feels like that to me.

Speaker 2: It's like a fortune cookie.

It's I could imagine this in a
fortune cookie, slightly rephrased.

It's a bit.

It's a little much, even
for a fortune cookie.

For, but yes, I agree.

It's really, but if you tidied it up, if
you were like, history repeats itself.

Yeah.

So become a historian, like that
would be a fortune cookie text, right?

Yeah.

And we'd all nod our
heads and eat the cookie.

Yes, I agree.

But

Speaker: he wants to just, he wants more.

Turn the dial up a little bit.

If you've seen the present,
you've seen everything.

Everything.

Yes.

It's very, it's a little more traumatic.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number 38, keep reminding
yourself of the way things are

connected, of their relatedness.

All things are implicated in
one another and in sympathy with

one another or with each other.

This event is the consequence
of some other one.

Things push and pull on each other
and breathe together and are one.

Okay.

Speaker 2: Same concept.

Very nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

I agree with this.

I do think it's like.

Easy thing to underestimate, actually,
like it's this is a cliche and obviously

to say, but I feel like there's truth
to that in the for instance, I think I

see this as maybe being a conversation
about legacy that he's having, where

people who feel like they need to do
something that's really high impact.

Hacked with their lives where they're
like, I must have my name in the history

books for hundreds of years, or whatever.

Yeah.

I think are committing this sin a little
bit actually, where they underestimate

how the interconnectedness of the
world in such a way that even just

like contributing in ways that do not

Get recorded in history books
still have an impact on the world.

I guess that's one of my
own private beliefs that I'm

imposing on this a little bit.

Speaker 2: That's a, that's
an interesting reading.

Yeah.

Keep your mind.

of the way things are
connected, of their relatedness.

Speaker: If you don't
keep reminding yourself.

Yes, if you forget about that,
then it feels like the world

is made up of like actors.

Yes, exactly.

It's more instrumental.

It's more this person did this
thing, and then this thing,

this other person did I see.

And it reduces history and it reduces
the world actually to being like

simple and explained by a couple
of little actions and equations.

I see.

So this is

Speaker 2: an angle on the old
control what you can control.

Speaker: Yeah, in part because
the world is super complicated and

you don't know how it all works.

And so just do your thing and
trust that actually is that has

way more of an impact than you can
perceive on the state of the world.

Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.

Thank you for that reading.

That adds a lot, because
before this I did not know.

It felt it was like a secret.

Slippery sphere.

Yeah.

I had nowhere to latch onto,
but now I have a little bit of a

crack I can put my fingernail in.

Yeah.

Speaker: And it's, it's long.

He's just being poetic, but I like things
breathe together and are want Yeah.

At the end of there.

That's, it's like

Speaker 2: when you're really high and
you feel like all the chair is breathing.

Yeah, exactly.

, yeah.

It's a pretty poetic idea.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

He's, he really, he's really,

Speaker 2: he's trying to win
the high school poetry contest.

Speaker: The first sentence he really
liked, he was like, okay, cool.

What else can I say
that's the same as that?

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker: he's feeling himself.

Speaker 3: Cool.

Speaker: Number 39, the things ordained
for you teach yourself to be at one with

those and the people who share them with
you, treat them with love, with real love.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Okay.

So love what you do.

Speaker: Yeah.

And not just what you do.

Do, but also the people you're with.

But those, and the thing
you do is ordained for you.

It's not just love what you
do for us in the America is

about oh, pick something else.

Choose something to do,
which you will love.

You already love, have duty.

You have a duty.

You have duty.

Yeah.

And just, yeah it's as simple as
learning to commune with that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

This is Jro Dreams of sushi.

Yeah.

I love this.

Yeah,

Speaker: we were just over breakfast
before the podcast and I talked about

Winston Churchill, who was also a
little bit this way, I feel like.

You're, whatever.

He's ordained to be The son of the
Duke of Marlborough, or whatever it is.

This

Speaker 2: uppity gentleman and ruler.

Yes, it's a protest tyranny and
to lead the Britannia yeah, he

Speaker: was ordained to do that.

Yeah, he just totally was
And he loved it one with it.

Yeah, it was not there was no.

Oh, no, should I be doing this?

That's right the right person.

That's true.

It just nope.

I'm gonna do it Johnny.

Oh, Yeah, and the people who share
them with you treat them with love.

I feel like he maybe did that To

Speaker 2: yeah, he was a
very sensitive man, I think.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: This is becoming
a Winston Churchill podcast.

Yeah.

Speaker: It doesn't have to be a
Winston Churchill podcast, but that's

the guy who popped into my head Yeah.

With this, I think it's a nice sentiment.

, yeah.

Yeah.

Number 40.

Speaker 2: And I think we're
at, should we, 48 minutes, so

let's have this be the last one.

Yeah.

We read.

A page and a half, Tom.

So I think next time
we just jump right in.

No story time.

Just straight into Marcus.

One episode

Speaker: of just work.

Speaker 2: Here

Speaker 3: we go.

Speaker: Number 40.

Implements, tools, equipment.

If they do what they were
designed for, then they work.

Even if the person who
designed them is miles away.

Brilliant.

But with naturally occurring things,
the force that designed them is

present within them and remains there.

Speaker 3: What?

Speaker: Which is why we
owe it special reverence.

And the recognition that if you live
and act as it dictates, then everything

in you is intelligently ordered,
just as everything in the world is.

Whoa.

Speaker 2: What?

Speaker: Okay, so First
paragraph, I'm on board.

Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.

Tools work even if the guy
who made it isn't there.

Speaker: the thing about tools is you
can make a thing, and it, then go away.

And it still does its, if it
does its job, then it works.

Speaker 2: Amazing.

Okay, but then naturally occurring things.

Speaker: They still have this
force within them, which tools,

by implication, do not have.

Which is because they are their
own inventor or something.

They're a part of their own
inventor is part of them.

And their inventor doesn't
go away in the same way.

That's how I interpret this.

Okay.

Or their manufacturers.

Speaker 2: And that's why
we owe it special reverence.

I'm like a crappy tool.

Yes, soulless tool.

Yes.

Speaker: Imagine if when you made
a wrench, yes, your soul then

lived inside that wrench forever.

And it's crazy.

Yes.

How would you treat that
wrench with reverence?

Yes.

Okay.

Speaker 2: And recognition.

That, if you live and act as
it dictates, then everything in

you is intelligently ordered.

That's how I would act
towards that wrench.

What is he talking about, Tom?

What is a naturally occurring
thing that he The wind?

Speaker: It doesn't dictate
how to live and act, though.

What is a naturally occurring thing that
dictates how you should live and act?

Speaker 2: Death.

People?

People are a naturally occurring thing.

The force that designed

Speaker: And why we owe
it special reference.

Speaker 2: He must be thinking of
something, he just Classic Marcus will

never tell us what he's talking about.

Speaker: Okay it's I think death.

I think death.

Death, okay.

Okay, yeah, death is interesting.

Speaker 2: Death is We
owe it special reverence.

The recognition that if you live and
act as it dictates, which is to say,

live a full life don't be afraid of it.

Speaker: Yes.

Yeah, okay.

I dig that.

Yeah.

The other example I was gonna
pitch is big naturally occurring

things where it would be a shame
to destroy them or something, like

Speaker 2: A mountain.

Speaker: Yeah, like A big tree.

There's a, yeah, there's a big tree.

You could chop it down.

Or you could live in harmony with
it, and eat its fruits or whatever.

Okay,

Speaker 2: I get it.

Speaker: Yeah, that would be another.

Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.

Unlike wrenches, big trees and death

are owed special reverence.

Speaker: Yes.

I think it's more like, Marcus
is walking around and being like,

Should I cut this tree down?

No, he's Everyone loves that tree.

And meanwhile, all these tools are
just on the ground and we walk on them.

Why is it that we treat those
differently from one another?

And this is his response to that.

He's saying, Oh, because the designer
of the wrench is miles away so we

can stomp all over those tools.

And who cares?

Because if they still
work, then they still work.

And we didn't have to treat
them with any particular regard.

But with the tree, we are offending
the tree, the spirit of trees.

Yeah.

If we're rude to the tree.

And so that's why these two
things are not the same.

And sure, yes, also death.

Speaker 2: Boy, he's really swangin

Speaker: Yeah.

I think he's grappling
with some big stuff.

It's like, why?

Yes.

Why don't people love my wrench?

Yeah, he does lots of these okay.

I have two, like two, two ideas
and for some reason there's

something different about them.

Speaker 2: Let me turn them into
a grand theory of the universe.

One

Speaker: grand theory of the universe
explains why these two things, which

are obviously different, are different.

Because obviously this has
to form a grand theory.

Because to my mind there is no difference
between a wrench and a tree, but everybody

else seems to think there is one.

So why is that?

Yeah, that is one of his
rhetorical tasks that I have never.

I've never.

We always have.

To reverse engineer it.

I know from the entry like this, because
he's not, he never poses it as a question.

Yeah.

As such.

But it always does feel like that is
what he's doing is answering questions

Speaker 2: like I never ask
myself questions like that.

Yeah.

Speaker: duh, it's a wrench and a tree.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

It Bess speaks, a mind that really likes.

That he just Yeah, that's right.

Everything that could be
a philosophical question.

Oh, that's fun.

Yeah.

Let me I know people like this.

Let me philosophy my way through that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I know
people like this, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

I think Marcus is very much like that.

Yeah.

But, interesting.

Speaker 2: I don't Yeah.

I've I want to pick it apart in little
pieces, but I think you're right that

the core concept is do you agree,

Speaker: That's what I was going to
say, is I actually don't, I think.

Because I think there's also a way
to treat a wrench with reverence.

Yeah, totally.

It's silly to talk about the
spirit of wrenches or whatever.

But there's a way of looking
at it as human ingenuity.

And also the love of its creator
and all this other stuff where

you could treat it with reverence.

I feel like all of these

Speaker 2: Every time I read a
Philosophical or quasi philosophical text

that tries to differentiate between human
stuff and Animal stuff or natural stuff.

I feel like it's always flawed.

Like I've never read one of those
or I'm like, that's true I get it.

It's just all like we're
all animals like it's fine.

Yeah, so I just don't yeah I don't
really buy it always puts a weird self

importance on human creation in a way
that I think is just short sighted

Speaker: This one is the opposite though.

I feel like where it's like
there's natural stuff and then

there's the trash that humans make

Speaker 2: and a lot of the time it
is like that a lot in these books

What are supposed to be like woke?

Yeah.

Like perspectives on the environment.

Yeah.

It's actually humans are part of the

Speaker: environment.

Like it's, yeah, I agree.

And I also feel like.

Yeah.

I totally agree with that.

I remember there's a Bill Bryson
book that I think we both read

called The Walk in the Woods.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Where he talks about that impulse
in the American psyche, where there's this

concept of like wild preserved spaces.

Yeah.

Which are wonderful.

Which we love and are perfect.

And then anybody who threatens
those spaces is, and builds any

kind of anything anywhere near them.

Yeah.

Is bad.

Yeah.

And that's, it's like this lens that
we are constantly battling over.

Yeah.

And he makes this point that I love,
of there are these places, there's

not that many of them, but there are a
couple in the United States where a man

made feature enhances natural beauty.

Nice.

The Golden Gate Bridge.

Yeah.

The Hoover Dam.

Yeah.

There are these cool things where
it's this is a natural place that

is more beautiful because humans
came here and did something.

Yeah.

Which is such a cool perspective.

Yeah.

I was missing from that conversation.

Yeah.

I was so freaked out.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Yeah.

So Entry 40 feels very
like, Black and white.

Like, all human stuff
sucks, natural stuff great.

Speaker: Yes, and humans, there's no
way humans could ever invent anything.

Yeah.

That would work.

To fit into the pantheon of trees
things worth treating with reverence.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

I'm not on board for it.

Speaker 3: Yeah

Speaker: Okay, a lot of
disagreement with marcus.

Yeah, not my not.

Yeah marcus is Feels like he
was he's feeling himself here,

but i'm not totally yeah, he's
feeling himself a little too much.

Yeah, take a step back get back to basics.

Yeah

Speaker 2: next episode
Zero interpretation.

Zero chill.

Zero, we're just sprint reading.

Two hours, yes, of me just reading at

Speaker: you.

Yeah, we're gonna try to finish book six.

There is absolutely no
way, It's three pages, Tom.

One, two, okay, four.

It's nineteen entries.

Speaker 2: We're not gonna get through

Speaker: nineteen

Speaker 2: entries.

Some

Speaker: of them

Speaker 2: are

Speaker: long.

Depends how

Speaker 2: fast you read.

I will contribute no comments.

Okay,

Speaker: you're allowed to.

Make noises while I'm
reading, yeah, exactly.

But not ones that can slow me down.

Exactly.

Okay, great.

Speaker 2: Vroom!

Speaker: Okay, we're off to the races.

Bye bye!

See ya.

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