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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
Holly Allen 0:00
My sister, Sophie works at Venatrix where I did a little work experience stint. And I did really enjoy it to be fair. And I could see that she was making so much money. And I was like, You know what, I want to be doing a little bit of that. So I basically just asked, so if I was like, Look, I need to be in a job where I'm earning money. I was living at home at the time as well. And I kind of wanted to move out of home, always liked the idea of Manchester. She had an assessment day for GE too. So I was like, perfect. Basically, got on the assessment day said exactly what she told me to say. added my own little spin onto it. Got the job? And that's how it all began.
Mark Ackers 0:41
Did she make commission on placement?
Holly Allen 0:42
She did. And I don't think I ever saw any of it. Actually, the blame for Yeah, I think it's fair to say very difficult was being very direct was talking over me was asking me questions about pricing and all this stuff that we didn't talk about as SDRs on the initial call, you know, that's not what we did that the whole point of an Imam was to qualify it and set that expectation at the beginning of the call. And I remember her just being quite rude. And I was getting really anxious stressed on the call. We were on a zoom, I had to turn my camera off, because I started crying on the call because I was like I cannot handle this.
Mark Ackers 1:28
So in that low moment, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being everything's brilliant and loving life, one being just want to go back to that garden and never have to do it again. How low were you? Hello and welcome to another episode of ISP crap at sales. I'm your host Mark Akers. And today I am joined by an account executive at deal with previous experience in the SAS world including an SDR and a role at G to A LinkedIn influencer and social seller with at the time of filming 25,361 followers. Someone who loves a LinkedIn selfie, and quite frankly, is the most travelled sales professional I've ever seen. If you're not guessed it by now, I'm joined by Holly Allen. Holly. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the orange shares. How are you?
Holly Allen 2:24
I'm good. I'm very excited to be here.
Mark Ackers 2:27
Fantastic. Let's get into the podcast with a one. Yes, no question. Holly, did you used to be crap at sales? Yes. Let's dive into it. Holly, tell us? Where did you learn to sell? Looking at your LinkedIn? I'm not sure where you started in sales, in the sense of the first role you have down as a hostess for bittersweet promotion companies. But it says you're a commission based. So I don't know if you would say it was that or I know you did a couple of weeks with recruitment video tricks. But then it was G2. When I asked you where did you learn to sell? Where would you say.
Holly Allen 3:08
So it was at that very first role. Bittersweet promotion. So to give you a bit of background on what that was, I was at uni at uni, I was a real party girl, which is a bit of a shock for me now, because I'm such a hermit now. But back at uni, I was a real party girl, I was going out six times a week, and would see my bank balance very quickly, getting worse and worse. And I was like, I don't want to be one of those, you know, broke students that can't do anything. So I got a job as a shot girl with this promotion company called bittersweet promotion because I could kind of combine the best of both worlds where I could still go out, I could still have fun, but I was earning money at the same time. And it was a commission based role. So obviously, the more shots you sold, the more money that you would make. And I absolutely loved it. It was my first ever like proper job. And I had so much fun doing it. It was all cash in hand at the time that I started. And I used to carry a lightup tray and a bum bag where I would put all my money in. And I used to get in from various different nightclubs all over the country. And I would get in at like 6am Sometimes, and I would literally sit there on my bed and just count the money that I earned. And I would get such a thrill from it. And then first thing on a Monday morning, I would go into the bank to pay that into my account. And I just loved the feeling of making my own money. And every week I would try and make more and more and more. So that was definitely where it began. And I think just realising that, you know, I have to use my personality. I had to be quite confident really put myself out there and that would mean that I would make more and more money. So yeah, I would say that's kind of where it all began. That is
Mark Ackers 4:57
not what I was expecting. This shows how my brain works a bit of sweat and I just thought he's like, brownies or cookies or Oh, no. Okay, so like, yeah, you're you're a short girl, so to speak. So how much money were you? Were you making per night? So
Holly Allen 5:14
when I started, it was like 40 / 50 quid. And as I got better, within about kind of two months, I was taken home, anywhere between I think my best night was like 750 pounds. And a kind of average was like 300 to 600 a night. That is, that is crazy. Honestly, it was, it was unbelievable.
Mark Ackers 5:37
What, what what did you do? Like, how did it? How did you go from 50 to 750? But what are you doing differently? Well,
Holly Allen 5:46
there were some, there were some ways to be clever with it.
Mark Ackers 5:51
But given the wrong change back,
Holly Allen 5:53
essentially, it was just like, I would get to the shift. You know, if I knew that the bar wherever I was working opened at five, but my shift was meant to start at seven, I would get there at five, like I would make sure I was there. You know, they didn't have checks on that that didn't really matter. And then I would stay until the very last minute, you know, I wouldn't really take a break. I was on my feet all night. I think the more I got into it, the more I would make wonder why not doing this? Honestly, sometimes when sales gets tough, I do think God, why do I just go back to my shop girl days, it was honestly, unbelievable money. It was crazy.
Mark Ackers 6:32
I bet and I don't know this, but I can imagine one of the skills you would have picked up is communication. Like Yeah, speaking with different people, different levels of intoxication, shall we say, and probably having to adapt to Well, first of all, how old are they? Are they male or female? That yesnaby a different engagement? Yeah. Are they younger? They older? How drunk? Are they? And you've kind of got to think on your feet, how you change how you speak to people, I'm guessing.
Holly Allen 6:58
Absolutely. That was a massive part of it. You know, if you've got a Hindu, for example, the way that you approach them, the tone that you take, the words that you use is going to be very different when you go up to a group of lads on a stag do. So yeah, that was super key. And I think as well just, you know, often I would go up to, not to stereotype but like guys that might be out with their girlfriends, and the girlfriends would immediately be like, No, absolutely not. We don't want any shots and just having to deal with that, you know, rejection, take it on the chin. Go to the next person try again.
Mark Ackers 7:30
Okay, so I can see that gave you good footing, but I'm guessing whilst that selling, it just cannot be compared to what you're doing now? Yeah, let's talk about that first role there. And so when I looked at your CV and go through that, as I say, your first SDR role was at GE two. Yes. How did that come about? And before you answer, I suppose here's what I want to know, right? No one wants to be in sales. No one's growing up wanting to be in sales. They want to be pop stars or whatever. They're at uni. You're thinking about getting a job as an SDR. Yeah. How did you get that first job as an SDR? What made you take that role? So
Holly Allen 8:10
when I was at bittersweet, obviously was making really good money. When I first came out of uni, I actually did a manager in training at Hollister. So I was working in the retail space. I lasted about three weeks. absolutely hated it. It was like this is not for me.
Mark Ackers 8:27
Just the clothes shop. This really dark. You can't see anything. Yeah, yeah, it was
Holly Allen 8:31
it. Yeah. No, it was just I realised I'm not a I love to go in there to shop. But yeah, not for me. So anyway, and I also missed the commission element. Like, I love the part of dealing with customers. But I really miss that commission element. My sister, Sophie works at Venator x where I did a little work experience stint. And I did really enjoy it to be fair. And I could see that she was making so much money. And I was like, You know what, I want to be doing a little bit of that. So I basically just asked, so if I was like, Look, I need to be in a job where I'm earning money. I was living at home at the time as well and I kind of wanted to move out of home. always liked the idea of Manchester. She had an assessment day for GE too. So I was like perfect. Basically got on the assessment day said exactly what she told me to say. added my own little spin on to it. Got the job and that's how it all began.
Mark Ackers 9:28
Did she make commission on placing you?
Holly Allen 9:30
She did and I don't think I ever saw any of it actually. Shameful. Yeah, yeah. Well,
Mark Ackers 9:36
what's the trick there though, because she could appease him all the time going on. So wasn't conscious decision then to get into sales? Because I suppose your taste for money and commission from the short days but did you really know what you were signing up for?
Holly Allen 9:51
I didn't know what I was signing up for and I think I just didn't really know what else to do. You know, when I started at Hollister, I thought I was gonna be the CEO of Hollister, California. That was the plan. And then that dream, you know, died very quickly. And I was just like, well, I need a job. And I just turned to you know, my immediate family, my sister's a recruiter. So it was kind of a no brainer, all right, saas, sales, it is didn't know what saas was, didn't really honestly did not even really know what GT was, even on the assessment day, until I kind of really was probably about three months into they understand right review platform, okay.
Mark Ackers 10:33
But again, what I'm going to recruitment, your sister does that. She could talk you through that. That makes sense. She had a bit of experience of no tricks. Sounds like just such a big jump, isn't it? Like what? What stops you going into other fields like recruitment?
Holly Allen 10:47
So I did initially get a job in recruitment that helped me move to Manchester. So I was at a company working in recruitment, absolutely loved it. But then COVID hit, and I was put on furlough. I didn't work for a good couple of months, and my sister had come home at the time. So we were both at home and my mum and dad's house, I was sunbathing in the garden every day while she was still placing people into these str roles. And it got to a point where I was like, I can't do this furlough life anymore. She's placing people on basic salaries at the time that were, you know, really big to me, because obviously basics in sales are typically better than basics in recruitment. And I was just like, I want to be doing this as well. So yeah, made the jump
Mark Ackers 11:35
Fair enough. So we were an SDR G two and then you got promoted I didn't knew what what role to get posted into account executive. And I know the answers but I want to hear from you. What was the time period when you're an SDR to an account? Exactly how long were you in SDR for?
Holly Allen 11:49
So 15 months as an SDR and then I did three months as an A G two?
Mark Ackers 11:56
Do you feel like that was enough time as an SDR before moving into an AU role?
Holly Allen 12:01
Honestly, no. At the time couldn't wait to move up. With hindsight. I think for me personally, I could have probably done with another minimum six months, I would say maybe even another year in the SDR gig. So
Mark Ackers 12:20
talk me through what happened then like, how did that come about? Did you push for it? Did you get given it? How did you go from an SDR with no other previous experience as an SDR? You've been in SAS sales for 15 months. Yeah, really not a long time at all. How did you get the a role how that come about?
Holly Allen 12:38
So I did the classic thing where you start as an SDR and immediately you're like, I want to be an AE, how do I get to be an A because that is kind of what we're told that that you should do and you should move on to do when you should try and do it quickly. So I did that. And I had you know the the interview, that kind of 14 month mark was really, really excited about moving up. And and this is why I do think it is definitely dependent on the individual because I'd moved up with the SDR that I joined with, you know, we started on the same day we moved up at the same time. And he was definitely ready for it. You know, he's still there now absolutely crushing it. But I just wasn't. But I think I kind of felt like I had to I had to move up. And I think that's why I only lasted three months because I got into the role I completely panicked. I had some personal stuff going on as well. I was living in London, hated living in London really wanted to move back up north. So that was a big factor. I think if you're not happy with your environment, you know, that makes sales, any job very difficult. moved into the ad role had a mad panic. And, you know, kind of with hindsight, I really wish I'd have stuck it out and spent longer in that role. I really do. But I think just kind of lack of maturity, I jumped into another role. That was from GT from GE to Yeah, that was doing like STR coaching. And I think the reason I did that was because you know, I didn't want to go back to an SDR Oh my God, how can I possibly do that? Like, how embarrassing would that be in my head? And so I thought well SDR coaching, I still get to go back to that world. But technically, I'm a coach. So it's better than being an SDR. Yeah.
Mark Ackers 14:35
So there's quite a lot we could break down there. And I kind of want to come back to that because one of the things I see all the time is STRS wanting that next step. Yeah, like way quicker than what they're ready for it. Yeah. And I've seen STRS leave good companies to get the a role that they can't get internally and then fail. And I think there is I think I was an SDR for nearly three Is wasn't called it back then. Like the time didn't even exist. I was a Business Development Executive, right, which was just like stupid title that I was given because that world did not exist. But yeah, definitely three years just cold calling pick up the phone. Fine tune that crap before I moved up and even then I wasn't ready. Yeah. So we're then in a sales coaching management role, is
Holly Allen 15:23
that right? Yeah, you could call it that.
Mark Ackers 15:26
And how many sort of STRS are you looking after?
Holly Allen 15:30
So I was looking after? Good question. I think the team grew to about six. That
Mark Ackers 15:37
sounds like a part of your career where you just really didn't know what you wanted to do. We moved on from there. And we'll come back to like different parts and where you learn that, but we then moved on to there. And we now find you a deal. Yep. And you went into that SDR role? But six months before, how can I do that? That's embarrassing. How did you shift mentality to take that SDR role?
Holly Allen 15:58
Yeah. And this is the kind of ironic thing, isn't it? Where when I was at GE two, it was like, Well, I have to move into a role now because everyone's going to be going well, so and so moved up, she's, you know, she's obviously not as good. And then I actually came back to the SDR role, you know, what, a year or year and a half later, I think I just realised, you know, look, I really wanted to join deal. It's was an amazing company back then, is an amazing company now. And I knew that if I want to actually do well, at this company, I need to put my pride aside, I need to go in, I need to learn the ropes. I need to start not from the bottom, because I don't think saying that about an SDR role is fair. But I need to start from the beginning. Because I want to move into a role eventually. But I need to be ready. I need to know everything that I need to know to make a success out of that. So it was very much a pride aside, I remember the day before I joined deal. being so nervous about the post of I've gone from head of sales development. That was my job title on LinkedIn, to SDR. I was like, Oh, my God, this is so those feelings came back. This is so embarrassing, blah, blah, blah. But then I was like, and we talked about this earlier, like, no one cares. No one actually cares. Like it's all in your head. And I just think something I've really learned is like, if you're not happy in a job, you shouldn't stay for, you know, a big salary or job title or because you care about what other people think if you need to take a step back, that is completely fine to do so. And it's genuinely the best thing I could have ever done. And I'm so glad that I did. So I did 10 months as an SDR deal before being promoted. And I'm so so glad I did that and didn't you know, walk into the interview and say I want to be an ad. And,
Mark Ackers 17:57
again, I'd love to dive into like that head trash that imposter syndrome, that fear of what other people will think. And I imagine that gets heightened when you have a brand like yours on LinkedIn that can get into your, into your head about perception and what people think etc. And I'd love to get into a little bit more, but just I suppose to finish the story, you then got voted in a deal, how long we've been that role for now? Has it six months,
Holly Allen 18:23
six months?
Mark Ackers 18:24
How's it gone?
Holly Allen 18:25
It's hard. It is hard. On the whole, I'm really enjoying it. I really, really am. And I know that I can't wait for six months time when I look back on where I am today. And I'm like, Okay, I've massively improved from where I was. But it is difficult. And I think it really does just go to show, you know, I've been an SDR at two different companies 50 months at 110 months at the other. You know, I think the longer that you can be an SDR for I honestly think is a gift. Because the skills that you learn the time that you have in that role are so so crucial, I think to support you moving up to a but also to understand that just because you are a successful SDR does not mean you're gonna walk into a role and smash it because that has certainly not been the case for me. You know, I'm not doing badly. But it's, it's tough. It is tough.
Mark Ackers 19:23
What are the hardest parts of the role for you today?
Holly Allen 19:29
I would say I mean, there's a lot of things where I think firstly, it's all of the additional skills that you need to learn around, you know, negotiation, and having those very difficult conversations with prospects when you're trying to close a deal and they want a better price or what about your competitors or whatever it might be. And I'm not naturally a confrontational person at all. I hate those conversations. So even when I'm on a call and it's funny, I was speaking to my manager about this and I was saying but When someone asks me about a competitor that really stresses me out. And he was like, but that's not even confrontation, Holly, they're just asking a question. But I get really nervous in those moments. So I think that's definitely part of it. And I think as well, you know, we're told in sales, you have to be resilient, you have to have a thick skin. And I think as an SDR, you know, you definitely have to, you're making cold calls yet, and the phone that put down on you, but I think with something that I've struggled with is, you know, you build great relationships with these potential customers, you have several calls with them, and then suddenly, they ghost you, or suddenly, oh, no, we don't want to move forward. And I take that really personally, you know, it's not only what could I have done better in my sales strategy? But I'm like, did they not like me? Did I not come across? Well, I and I will think about it, and I've shed a few tears over it. And I just take it really to heart. And I think that is something that, you know, I'm going to need to work on. Because you have to accept that you are going to have a lot of rejection. And that is going to happen a lot of the time. And it's not, you know, might be to do with you. But nine times out of 10. It's not, it's not a personal thing.
Mark Ackers 21:18
There's so much when I ask that. Okay. It's like, how do we dices up? Because let me tell what's going through my mind. So I want to know how long you think someone should be an SDR for? I want to know about conflict? And is that really in your head? Because when I hear I hear your manager there, saying, you know, talk about your competitors talk about price? I don't feel that's conflict. I know. But I want to I want to get into why you feel like there's conflict. Yeah. My ears always pick up when I hear at a talk about relationships and need to be liked. And that because that's a huge thing that people struggle with, is that need for approval? I'd love to understand that for you. And like, in a way where I just totally understand it, like I've gone on that journey myself, and had that point out to me. And then yeah, just how hard you found the role. When you talk about time where you've shed tears and influence and managers and how they've helped you This is as low as we can get into. And I suppose that kind of brings the summary of your career so far to date. I mean, it is such a short career so far, like talking about how you were in the garden during COVID. To where you've got to doubt I mean, in the end, it's incredible what you've achieved in such a short period of time. But you've got so much more ahead of you, I suppose, which is obviously really exciting. When you said at the start and introduce yourself, you know, Hi, I'm Holly and I used to be crap at sales. They would have been a point of your career that was at the top of your mind. What point was that?
Holly Allen 22:52
Yeah, so that point was and this I don't think I'll ever forget this memory. I was an SDR at GE to I had received an inbound call. I had it in my calendar I was in the office, I can actually remember it like it was yesterday. In the office in Barra. No one else was in the office. I was doing this call. And the prospect that I had was, I think it's fair to say very difficult was being very direct was talking over me was asking me questions about pricing and all this stuff that we didn't talk about as STRS on the initial call, you know, that's not what we did that the whole point of an inbound was to qualify it and set that expectation at the beginning of the call. And I remember her just being quite rude. And I was getting really anxious stressed on the call. We were on a zoom, I had to turn my camera off, because I started crying on the call because I was like I cannot handle this. And it was really awkward. And I had to send her an email after and say, Sorry, my internet cut out. And it was honestly horrific. And I remember ending the call and then FaceTiming my mum straight after bawling my eyes out Mum, I can't do this. It's so hard. Everyone's horrible. I don't like it. I was in London at the time. I just want to move back up north. Yeah, that was a really low point in my career.
Mark Ackers 24:27
Obviously that's that's sad to hear that story. But everyone's got scars. I suppose. That's yours. Yeah. When you reflect back, do you think no, they definitely were rude, difficult. Nasty. That was definitely a fair reaction. Or do you feel slightly differently now as you sit here someone's more experienced, more maybe self confident and can reflect on it differently. How do you feel about that now versus living? roar in the moment.
Holly Allen 25:01
So when I look back, I think she definitely was very rude like she was I don't think I was overreacting there. But I think I could have just handled it so differently. I could have just cut the call short, you know, just said, Look, I'm obviously not the right person to speak to let me bet qn with an account executive, really sorry to have wasted your time, if that's how you feel, and just ended it instead of trying to continue with the call getting all upset making everything worse. Was the call recorded? Yes, it was.
Mark Ackers 25:36
What happened to that recording?
Holly Allen 25:37
I have no idea. It's probably I mean, it's probably wiped now it was so many years ago. But I remember going on to Gong afterwards and trying to see if there was a way I could like, delete the call. But then I was like, I'm just gonna have to suck it up. And except that it's on there for life.
Mark Ackers 25:55
And no one picked it up for coaching or reviewing purposes kind of just got away of it sounds harsh, but I
Holly Allen 26:02
got away with it.
Mark Ackers 26:02
Thank God. Yeah. And I feel like I know the answer. Because that sounds like quite a traumatic experience. Right? I can, I can imagine it must have felt really like to turn the camera off and wonder, what's the reason you didn't ask someone like a manager for help with a difficult prospect at that point? Like, I've got the recording? Can you help me? I don't want this to happen again.
Holly Allen 26:26
Because I was so embarrassed. I was mortified. By the way I'd gotten really upset. And I had to turn my camera off. I was like, This is ridiculous. I was so ashamed of the way that I'd responded. And I just thought there's no way I can share this. That's just gonna look so bad. What will they think of me?
Mark Ackers 26:51
As hard? Was that the lowest point you've ever had?
Holly Allen 26:54
Yeah, I mean, that was that's a memory that will stick with me like a distinct moment. I think when I did SDR management, that was also quite tough. And I did really, really struggle with that. Because I made the move into that, which was quite a bold move, you know, to leave, just becoming an account executive. So in my head, I was like, I really need to make this work. And I really thought that I was ready to be an SDR manager, because I'd been a really good SDR. So I was like, Oh, this will be this will be easy. And it was, it was so difficult. And I remember just feeling completely out my depth thinking, what am I doing? Not feeling experienced enough? Not feeling good enough? And, but in my head thinking, I cannot I cannot leave this role. I can't What can I do? Where do I go from here? I can't move into an AE role. I can't go back into an SDR role, because that's absolutely mortifying. I can't move to another company. And I was like, I'm just in this absolute rats. Of what what do what do I do? One
Mark Ackers 28:08
nude so that I would definitely talk about this new role as the manager. Just before we do that, I want you to imagine I'm you after that Call of Duty. Okay. So appreciate. We don't quite look the same. But I want you to imagine I've just made that call to my mom can't do it. I want to move home. And then eventually, that call finishes. You now with your experience, the journey you've been on? What would you say to me?
Holly Allen 28:40
I'd say? Don't worry about it. Don't take it personally. It's just one call out of 1000s of calls you're going to do? Let it go. Don't let it get to you. What can we learn from that call? What could you have done differently?
Mark Ackers 28:57
And that is easier said than done there? Isn't it? Yeah. Because even now, you're talking about as an AE, struggling to disconnect from the outcome, feeling like the relationships there, etc. So yeah, it's one of those things that that's the best advice to give. Yeah, what why is it the hardest to follow?
Holly Allen 29:15
I know, it really, really is. And that's the thing. It's so easy before I get on calls now to think it's just a call, it's going to be fine. But if I'm on a call and someone picks up their phone or someone looks disinterested, no matter what self talk I've given myself before, it is so difficult. So
Mark Ackers 29:33
in that low moment, on a scale of one to 1010 10 being everything's brilliant and loving life, one being just want to go back to that garden and never have to do it again. How low were you?
Holly Allen 29:49
I would say one at that moment.
Mark Ackers 29:53
What kept you going?
Holly Allen 29:55
Well, I had no choice. You know, I had a few live in London that I had to pay for. I had a job. And also, I think, you know, once you've calmed down, just that realisation of okay, I'm not the first person, this has happened to you, I'm not going to be the last this is not going to be my last ever difficult call either this does happen. Put your big girl pants on and get on with it. That'd
Mark Ackers 30:21
be Bridget Jones pants. So who's like, helping you out? When you're having those tough times? And you know, imagine your sister's gonna be someone you're going to say but who is someone that you can go to? That helps you through these difficult moments this head trash, this imposter syndrome, the struggles? Who is it you go to.
Holly Allen 30:45
So I would say my sister. However, she can be very direct. So she often doesn't really, I feel bad saying this, but we have had this conversation. Sometimes she's not the most empathetic, she'll be like, come on, Holly, you're in a really good job, you make good money, stop whinging and get on with it, you know, she's very direct. And when you're feeling very down and low, that is not what you want to hear, you know, you need someone that can give you that comfort. So honestly, I would probably say initially, it will be someone like my mum, who will just tell me everything will be fine and comfort me. And then I think once I've got over the initial stress of it all, then that's when I will be in a position to say, Okay, right now I want feedback. And that would either be with, you know, my manager, or it would be, you know, on one of our sessions, bringing a call, and, you know, being ready to and I find it funny how sometimes you'll ask me at the start, you know, how, how honest can we be today? Because, you know, some days are harder than others some days, you know, you only want to be able to take a certain level of kind of constructive feedback. But yeah, that's that's what I'd say. So
Mark Ackers 32:00
there's probably a slight missing piece for the people listening here in that. Yeah, we we have like a coaching arrangement where I provided coaching to you on a number of occasions, that's probably a missing piece for people. But yeah, we can definitely talk about that. Is your mom's background sounds like does she get it? Or is it more comfort?
Holly Allen 32:18
It's purely comfort? She doesn't understand it at all? Right?
Mark Ackers 32:21
Okay. Which you know, we're like an SDR is or saas or an AE.
Holly Allen 32:26
Well, she does now She tries her best. She really does. But, yeah.
Mark Ackers 32:31
So when you're having like, the crap moments, confidence takes a knock mindset can feel like a lonely place. How does this impact your performance and your day to day in the role?
Holly Allen 32:46
I would say, when I get on calls, it makes me really nervous, a little bit stressed, I don't ask my discovery goes to shit. I don't know if I can swear on this. Because I just want to get off the call. Because I think the prospect just wants to get off the call. Because I'm like, they don't want to speak to me, I'm not good enough to be here. So I just need to get through this as quickly as possible, tell them, you know exactly what they need to hear. And then I just need to get off the call. And obviously, that is the complete wrong way to go into a call. And then I think outside of that, it just makes you prospecting really difficult. Because you get a lot of rejection, you get a lot of people ignoring you. And when your confidence is quite low, and you know all you want that could make you feel so much better. It's just someone to reply and say, Oh, thank you for the voice now, or whatever it might be. And you know, when you have a run of some, you know, cold responses or no responses, that can be really tough as well. And it just makes you not want to do it.
Mark Ackers 33:57
And outlets, let's just say a standard seven, well, five day working week, how many days do you feel like that? Versus on top of the world?
Holly Allen 34:09
Honestly, depends if you'd have asked me this question last week, when I closed two deals, I would have told you I feel on top of the world. Everything's good. Now I've got the hang of this. It's great. If you're asking me this question this week, when I've had a couple of deals fall through, it can be really, really tough. It feels
Mark Ackers 34:29
like it's a constant emotional roller coaster for you. So it really is. What's the reason you still in sales? Good
Holly Allen 34:38
question. The reason is because I I know deep down that I have potential. And I know that if I just fight through the difficult times that are always going to come up. I know that I can be a really good day I know that I will be a real We go day and even though I do lose sight of that, quite often, I need to just keep going. Because you know, and also, I want the, you know, the financial freedom that sales can give to you I want I work fully remotely like That's amazing. I don't want to be in, you know, an eight till six where I have to be in an office and I'm doing the morning commute. And I want that freedom and that flexibility. And when you do get that deal, or you do build a really great relationship with the client, like I get such a such a good feeling from that. And that's how I know you know, when the good is good in sales. The good is so good.
Mark Ackers 35:39
Yeah, I don't disagree with that. The highs are high, the lows are low. Yeah. And I think I know, this is why I want this podcast. I know that everyone has the lows and the highs and that everyone used to be crap at sales, many still are crap at sales. But here's where I think this comes really interesting. To the outside world, you look incredibly successful, right? You're on LinkedIn, you've got that personal brand you've got? Was it 25,000 plus followers? Does it ever, in your head play a part in what you think people's perception of you is? And the reality of you? Yeah,
Holly Allen 36:21
it's, it's an interesting one. Because I completely agree with you in that. People that post regularly on LinkedIn have these big followings. You think not, they have a massive following. But you always think, Oh, they've they've got their lives together. They're all sorted and whatnot. And actually, you know, and like I say, I'm not saying I'm doing terribly, and it's all doom and gloom and all the rest of it. That's not the case at all. But I think you do have to take what you see with a pinch of salt, like you really, really do. And I think that with LinkedIn, I think that with all social media, everyone wants to show their highlights their best bits, you know, and I'm not going to do a LinkedIn post and make a video and do it half heartedly or do it in a really nervous state, you know, you're always going to show up and do your best. But, and that's why I think podcasts like this is so important to show like, look, what you see isn't always, you know, the reality. And if you are struggling, that's completely fine. Because so many people, especially now at the moment, so many people are struggling in sales.
Mark Ackers 37:24
Totally. And that's why it's great to have you on. And as we're getting into. I'm your coach at times, like we have, once way I know you're doing really well. I've seen deals you've close, you told me for your pipeline, you are. But equally, you're having like lows difficult, as is everybody. And I think that's kind of like what we want to get across. When people switch into this. There'll be feeling like, you know, and I've had those moments, and it's like, it's great to see successful people or that perception of struggle as well. So, talk to us about your time as a manager, then. I know, I know, we are jumping back and forth, but people don't keep up with us. You take that manager role. You'd have been quite young at that point. 24.
Holly Allen 38:09
Yeah, I think I was actually I accepted the job on my birthday, or the day before my birthday. Yeah, my 24th birthday, I think it was,
Mark Ackers 38:17
tell me about that period, tell me as much as you want to about that period as being a manager, and what you learn.
Holly Allen 38:23
So I think I was so excited about the role, I was really excited about the company, I was really excited about my team and being able to build out my team as well, you know that that was great. But I think I just I wasn't ready for a manager role. And I think as an SDR I had a very, like, particular way of doing things, you know, my social selling my personal brand. That was that was my thing. And in my head, I was like, Well, everyone can do that. Which, yes, you know, I'm not saying people can't build a personal brand, like, of course you can. But I think that everyone has their own unique way that they like to work, everyone has their own skill set things that they're going to be better at. And you know, things like cold calling, I was not a confident, cold call I didn't really cold call at GE to in all honesty. So then, you know, going into a company and having to kind of encourage your team to cold call when you're thinking, Well, I'm terrified of cold calling. I just felt I didn't feel like I could, you know, I didn't feel like I had a leg to stand on really. And to be completely honest, as well, I really missed being in a sales role myself. And I remember because especially at the start it really was kind of mainly, you know, management and getting the team up and running and whatnot and I wasn't really doing that much you know, STR in myself. And I remember when I would do bit submit, I would really enjoy it. And it was kind of at that point I was thinking, or have I gone into this way too soon, you know, I don't have any manager experience, this is a lot to take on. And actually, I kind of want to be an Icee again.
Mark Ackers 40:17
So again, there's loads of go out there. I think one thing that I find really interesting that you said, because I hear this a lot is asking your team to do something that either you don't want to calm or not confident you're doing yourself. Yeah. How did you deal with that? Really?
Holly Allen 40:38
That's, that's a good question. I mean, I would just try my best to feel motivated and excited by it, I remember for, for cold calling. In particular, I remember I got some cold calling experts in to help help the team, but also help me, you know, I was there taking all the notes. So just getting like additional training and trying to, you know, come around to it and start to feel more comfortable with it. But like I say, it was difficult, and I used to just feel a bit. Like I never wanted to be one of those managers, that would be like, you know, telling people to do a certain number of calls, but then like, not actually being there on the frontline yourself. Like, I think that is important, especially as an SDR manager. And for something like calling. I definitely wasn't doing that. Because I just I was I was nervous too. And I think a big part of that as well as when you are a manager, you, you kind of are I certainly felt like I couldn't fail. So I was nervous to make calls in front of the team and maybe get told to go away and then you know, not want to make another call. I was like, I don't want to show that to them. Like that'll look really bad. What will they think of me? And I think it does all come back to that imposter syndrome piece of just not feeling not believing in myself that I could do it. And just not wanting to fail and look a fool in front of a team that you're meant to be leading. And you're meant to be a good example, too.
Mark Ackers 42:13
Do you think they noticed? I don't know. I can see how that can be difficult, isn't it? No one likes cold calling. Even though some people say they do. No, but they're liars. Yeah, even people that are really good at cold calling. Don't like cold calling. It goes against everything we've ever been told to do growing up, but don't talk to strangers Don't interrupt speak when spoken to. And then just that believe of like nuisance phone callers and that interruption impostor syndrome and all of that stuff. But But yeah, must be tough. And then as you say you're in a now a deal. And talk to me about just your self development then and what you are doing to unlock your potential. Right. Like, I know that, you know, as I say, it was a bit of a perfect storm when I was a migraine thing. I was the first meeting you booked as an SDR deal. Is that right?
Holly Allen 43:11
Yes, you were. You were I remember you
Mark Ackers 43:15
saying? Yeah, yeah, I remember you saying to me the time so yeah. And then we obviously started speaking, my sales coach was pretty much in its infancy. We offered you a scholarship. You've had coaching from my sales coach for a year and a half. But let's not talk about right now. I don't want to plug my sales coach specifically but obviously a little bit what do you do for self development.
Holly Allen 43:38
So in the job, it's things like having regular one to ones with my manager that aren't always going over calls aren't always it sometimes it will just be something that I need is just a bit of a check in and for him to say my manager is great and he will say to me pretty much on every call you know, I believe in you Holly you just need to believe in yourself which sounds a bit cringe when I say out loud, but it does help and that helps me develop in the sense of it makes me feel a little bit more confident each time we get off those one to ones and then I go on to a call and then I think just all the kind of typical stuff that people probably have heard before you know around, watching on calls, watching you know, not only other people's in your company but watching yours back as well. Something I hate doing, but that's obviously something that we do that I prefer to do with someone because it somehow makes it less cringe than doing it on your own asking for feedback you know, unlike that girl at G two that was crying and didn't want a call to resume you know actually going look this wasn't a very good call can you actually helped me because I think even though sometimes you can shy away from doing that it does feel really good when you have got the feedback afterwards and you can action it
Mark Ackers 44:59
and he books, podcasts and particularly enjoyed or taken inspiration from. No, not a reader or listener, just not your thing.
Holly Allen 45:06
Just not my thing. No, if I read a book or I listen to a podcast, I want that to be completely non sales related. I'll be honest, I don't want to be, you know, people have told me about like, 30 minutes to President's Club and, and I would love to tell you that I've listened, but I'm not gonna lie. I'm not a sales podcast girlie. Fair
Mark Ackers 45:29
enough. So it's not it's not really books or podcasts. It's not your thing. But it feels like you've really tried to utilise the time the manager, use conversation, intelligence to listen back and review calls. Do you find yourself listening more to your own calls? Or someone else's calls?
Holly Allen 45:44
Other people's calls?
Mark Ackers 45:45
And how do you pick whose calls you listen to?
Holly Allen 45:50
I look at the top performers. And I also look at the a style that I feel I can relate to the most.
Mark Ackers 45:59
And what kind of style is that?
Holly Allen 46:02
Well, maybe not the style I Well, the style I relate to in the sense of being friendly, warm, bubbly, I've, I feel like that is very much my tone, as opposed to someone that's very direct. But there's this one A, he's called Jay, he's amazing. And when he goes on calls, like he does not pitch deal at all, he literally sells problems, you You and him would have a field day together. He's just selling problems the whole time. And the prospects are literally like putting in his hands after the call. And I'm just like, I want to be like, Jay, when I grow up,
Mark Ackers 46:42
Jay No, this is gonna be the first he hears about
Holly Allen 46:44
it. He does. He does. Yeah, I message him all the time.
Mark Ackers 46:49
And then obviously, you get coaching through my sales coach, I'm your coach. We we've never had a conversation about our coaching, other than we just have the coaching sessions. Really be honest. Right? Yeah, I know. So first of all, you asked me to be your coach. Yeah. Right. And I'm very different to you. And you know that right? So I suppose that's interesting. First of all, what's the reason you asked for me when you want the bubbly? The friendly person? I mean, I'm not bubbly at all. In that sense. What? What was the reason you asked for me when I'm very different to you?
Holly Allen 47:28
Because you are very direct, you won't bullshit. If something is bad, you will tell me. I mean, you won't say holy, this is terrible. But you know, you'll soften it a little bit. Yeah. And I do you think I do need that, because ultimately, the reason I'm having the coaching is because I want to get better. I want to be really, really, really good at this job. And so if I have someone that's a bit soft and a bit nicey, nicey, and we're not going to get anywhere. So even though sometimes, I'm like Jesus Christ mark, that was brutal. I'm also very grateful that you have, you know, said what you've said, because ultimately, it does help me and I do take it on board.
Mark Ackers 48:15
So that so that's obviously that's, that's good to hear that it's helpful. We take it on board, I think, yeah, let's say we've never spoke about it. It's married, really. And when we're having our coaching sessions, I think we learned maybe three, four sessions in that we need to find out where you are that day. Yeah. And I now start each coaching session with how direct you want me to be. Yeah. Now, here's, here's something that we didn't speak about. IRM. But not we've had a session since but the previous session, I think was like the back end of last year. I said how direct you're gonna be a new like, go all the way. I think I really don't. And I know the end. You were not in a good place. And that was honestly never my intention. Yeah. But i i Wait, it turns out cuz we spoke it turns out that the feedback and coach I gave you turned out to be correct bang on. Yeah. So but you didn't book with me for a little while.
Holly Allen 49:08
I didn't talk about that. So that situation was I for contact. So I'd had a call. It was a kind of final stage call with a prospect. It was about, you know, pricing and whatnot. And you'd basically said, Look, I would have handled this very differently. And I was like, No, I'm convinced she's going to buy she's going to move forward. And she didn't and you basically predicted that. And I think maybe the reason I didn't book was because I probably felt a bit embarrassed. Because I remember coming on to the call and thinking like oh, that was that, you know, that was a pretty good call. You know, the feedbacks gonna be fine. And but yeah, what you told me was completely correct, but I think may The reason I didn't book was because, yeah, it was kind of a tail in between my legs a bit embarrassed. You were right. It hasn't closed.
Mark Ackers 50:09
I think I hear that from people before they feel like they can't see their coach again, because they haven't done what they said they would do. Yeah, they feel like they have got their tail between the legs with the coach was right in terms of I remember predict, like you say, I predicted as like this, this won't close. And here's the reasons why. And as I say, I never I was thinking, so what did happen with that? Obviously, I'm never gonna chase you. It's got to be Yeah, you wanting that next session? And we've had one since on video messages, didn't we? Yeah. Talked about I know, there's a slightly different dynamic now. Because I'm, the coach normally wouldn't be the case, like, so try and separate that, but talking about the impact coaching has had on you in the trajectory of your career.
Holly Allen 50:54
So, I mean, it's been really helpful, otherwise, I wouldn't keep doing it. I think it's, I think sometimes, as you know, a wrap, you don't always want to, like you don't always want to show your manager your really bad calls, or I don't know, sometimes if they ask you like, oh, like, why did you say that? Or why did you position it this way? Or sometimes the answer is literally, God, I don't really know, I just kind of panicked, but you might not feel comfortable to say that. Which to be fair, like, genuinely is not the case with my manager, like I can be very, very honest. But I think it's just, it's just also having that like fresh perspective from another pair of eyes. And I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like you are very good at what you do. And, you know, often with managers, you won't have like an hour, I mean, we have our sessions like monthly, right, but you won't have like an hour a week to go over one call and really delve into it. And so it's just having that time that space to like, really dig into something. And I think as well, almost that thing of like, okay, I'm gonna see you in a month's time or however long it is and wanting to come to that session being like, Okay, I action, the feedback. This worked, this didn't. And, you know, looking forward to that catch up as well.
Mark Ackers 52:16
It's good to hear the impact I was having. And, you know, I can I've talked to talk for days about the impact coach had on me, and I've had that I, I remember my first coaching session, and a tear come down the aisle. I was really tough. I remember the end, my coach said, We should do this again. Everything.
Holly Allen 52:38
Absolutely not. Yeah, exactly.
Mark Ackers 52:39
Okay, so here's what we've covered in this podcast, so far, used to be climate sales. We've covered why you got into sales, the journey you've been on the moments that have been difficult for you, but also where you're going and what you're doing to try and improve it. Let's talk about some other parts of sales in general. And what's a valuable piece of advice you've been given in sales that you wished you got earlier.
Holly Allen 53:07
So not even I wish I'd kind of got earlier but I think something that I wish was instilled in my mind, and something I wish I could remember, is, remember, it's just a job. And it's really not life or death. If you get on a call, and it goes badly, for whatever reason, it is not life or death, you know, the world is not going to end. And that is really something that I think I definitely need to remember. And I think a lot of reps need to because it is so easy to get into your head about, you know, a call going wrong. And oh my god, I'm going to miss my target. And this is going to happen, and that's going to happen and it's just a job. It's not the end of the world who's had
Mark Ackers 53:55
the biggest influence on you and your sales career. Probably my sister for law, she gets a lot of good out of this interview.
Holly Allen 54:03
She does she always gets a plug on podcast, splitting that commission.
Mark Ackers 54:09
What is the former what's one classic prospect, habit or behaviour that frustrates you the most?
Holly Allen 54:15
When prospects are really really interested? And there's a clear need, but then at the end, they're like, yeah, so let's pick this up in four weeks. No, let's pick this up tomorrow. But yeah, that really annoys me.
Mark Ackers 54:32
Do you think sales is a profession to be proud of?
Holly Allen 54:37
Apps or fucking loosely? Yes, I think it's one of the well, I'm gonna say it's one of the hardest jobs out there. I know I'm gonna probably get some not that any doctors would listen to this, but people are going to be like, What do you want about like, there's people saving lives, but oh my god, I think it is very challenging and something to be proud of if you can get through it. You've
Mark Ackers 54:59
got a little nephew, haven't you? If I do, if he said to Holly, I want to go into sales sales, what would you say?
Holly Allen 55:06
I'd say, Don't do it. No, I'm joking. I'd be like, great. Let's continue the family history.
Mark Ackers 55:18
As we get towards the end of the podcast, what advice would you give to anybody? Right now that's not fulfilling their potential pay, just coasting in their sales role, what advice would you give to them?
Holly Allen 55:31
So I think the first thing I would say is think about the reason why you're coasting, get to the, you know, the root cause of the problem, is it number one, because you are just not motivated? And you don't want to do it? In which case, I think sales is a very hard career. And I don't think it's one that you can just do for the sake of it. So I would say, find something else go into go into something different? Or if it's a case of I really want to be here, but I'm just really struggling. Well, why are you struggling? Are you not getting the support? Is it the product? Do you just not passionate about it? Do you need to seek something like external coaching? You know, what, what is the problem? And I think just be honest with you know, your managers and the people around you, I think it's very, very easy, especially at the start of your career, when you just want to make a good impression. So that every one to one you get on when your managers like, Oh, how's it going? You're like, Yep, it's amazing. And they're like, Oh, you've, you know, maybe not booked as many meetings this week. Oh, yeah. Well, and you're making excuses, no, just be completely honest. Work hard. But if you are struggling, be honest, and get help.
Mark Ackers 56:44
If someone's just had the realisation, I'm crap at sales. What should they do?
Holly Allen 56:52
Understand why you're crap at it? Like, what what are you struggling with? What are the areas sit down with your manager? Get a coach, figure it out. If
Mark Ackers 57:04
you were to start your career again, let's skip the shot part. But a G two, you're gonna start that career again, what would you do differently,
Holly Allen 57:13
I would not be so impulsive, and throw my toys out the pram, when I wasn't getting something i with the account exact role that I moved into, you know, sticking it out, of course, it's going to be hard. It's progression. It's a new role. It's promotion. But suck it up, give it time, I think times the best healer, as cliche as it is to say, and keep going.
Mark Ackers 57:44
And I think on that, that we didn't get to this, actually, there'll be loads of STRS that follow you that will listen to this, all of which are looking up. But the next role was an AE, all of which thinking I want to be an SDR team leader or an SDR manager. They're not ready for it. What would you what would you say to them, people that are listening that have been in the role for six months, 12 months, maybe even 18 months? And they desperately just constantly looking for their next role, but they're not ready for it? What would you say to those people?
Holly Allen 58:13
I would say before you jump into the role officially do the role in your current role. So what I mean by that is if you're an SDR and you really want to be an A but you know your company don't think you're ready or whatever it might be do one day, a week, two days a week, as an AE, you know, start to actually try to close deals, build the proposal decks for your ad, like actually do the job. Because I think this is advice that is given a lot of the time and a lot of SDRs don't do it, because they probably know that they're actually not ready. And really they don't know how to build a proposal deck. Well, guess what? When you're on the front line, when you're in that role, it's you, you know, you're the one that the prospect is going to come to saying, where's that deck? Or why is there this error on this deck, you know, you've got no aid to hide behind. So I would just say start now so that when you do move into the role, it's not a massive shock.
Mark Ackers 59:11
Great advice. Last question. I want you to think about who should be a guest on the ISP crap it sounds podcast. So have a little think about someone who you'd love to hear be as open and vulnerable as you on the podcast. And then when you know that person is unwilling to look at your camera and invite that person to come on and tell them why they should come on.
Holly Allen 59:32
Harry Monkhouse I think that you should come on the I used to be crap at sales podcast. The reason being you have had a super successful career starting out as an SDR moving into an AE role. And you've now taken on a new role and new venture. So we'd love to hear about your journey and what you've learned along the way. Fantastic,
Mark Ackers 59:53
Holly. We will trim that up. We're sending that to Harry. And that brings us to the end of the episode. Holly I just want to start by saying thank you for being so open. So honest and, and vulnerable today and sharing your experiences. And I want to double down on what I said earlier on in the podcast. I'm really lucky, I get to be your coach. So when we work together in a one to ones, I listened to your cold calls, I've read your emails, I've watched your discovery calls, I watch your demos, and you are so talented and amazing at what you do. But that's not what this podcast is all about. And I know that you've totally embraced that. We've spent the time talking about how you used to be like everybody else crap, it sounds and you've just been remarkably honest and shown that side that people wouldn't want to talk about. So I want to thank you for that. But really double down on that you are really talented and it's great to be your coach and watch you grow in every session. Thanks for coming on.