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This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers and beyond) who want more flexibility while still doing work they love. As a freelance fashion designer, you can build your fashion career on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk). Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want. Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)
Heidi [00:00:00]:
Dear listener, I hate to break it to you, but as a freelance fashion designer or PDTV, etcetera, you have to sell. I mean, only if you wanna get clients. But here's the truth. Selling does not have to be gross or scary or pushy, and the sales process is actually more about the prospective client than it is about you. My guest today is Nikki Rausch, who's been in sales for over 25 years and has sold to organizations like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Hewlett Packard, and NASA. She shares her signature framework, the selling staircase, and walks us through the step by step strategies you can use to lead a sales conversation from start to finish and close the deal. Nikki also shares her circle back strategy, something I had never heard of, which is a simple way to Prevent from getting ghosted. I guarantee you, it will help you get more clients.
Heidi [00:00:46]:
If you wanna turn more conversations into paid projects, you're going to love this episode of fashion designers get paid. Let's get to it. Your one of your philosophies on your site says you tell people you teach people, like, what to say and when to say it. Mhmm. And I'd love to kind of just, like, start there. That really, like, peaked my interest. And so talk to me a little bit about, You know, why do you focus on that part of the sales cycle, and how is that really, really impactful for people who are in sales, which As freelancers, people are like, I have to do sales? Yes. You're a salesperson.
Nikki [00:01:20]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:01:21]:
So talk to me a little bit about that.
Nikki [00:01:22]:
It really comes down to I find that Most people who get into their business don't really think about there's gonna be a sales component to it. Yeah. Yeah. And what holds a lot of people back is they're So worried about saying or doing the wrong thing that they just don't do anything, which is not gonna help your business grow.
Heidi [00:01:42]:
Yeah.
Nikki [00:01:43]:
Yeah. I truly believe that my job is not to teach people how to sell like me. My job is to show people certain ways that they can be more strategic and still be genuine to their own personality. Yeah. But by having a little bit of structure to a sales Conversation so you know, like, where am I in the conversation, and what should I be saying or doing next? It isn't about me just handing you a script and go, like, word vomit it back to me. That's not gonna work for anybody, honestly, because you don't talk like me, and I don't talk like you. And I want it to feel organic and real. And so that's why I give structure of, like, what to say and when to say it Is not me saying, like, you have to say this exact thing, although there are certain phrases I do recommend People use, but it isn't, it isn't like talk like Nikki.
Nikki [00:02:35]:
It's like, you know, be yourself, but be strategic in the conversation because When you know how to pick up a buying signal, when you know how to invite people to the next step, when you know how to issue close language, That's how you earn business. And when you earn business, you get to make a bigger impact in the world.
Heidi [00:02:52]:
Yeah. Okay. So I have a couple specific questions. First of all, I wanna go into some of those, like, strategic one liners that do exist. But before we do that, like, let's maybe do a little pretend situation here. So I'm a freelancer. You know, my audience is specific to fashion. Yep.
Heidi [00:03:12]:
So I land my 1st discovery Call. Like, I'm I'm to the like, I've pitched or I've connected with somebody somehow. Maybe it's through Upwork. Maybe it's through my network or, like, I got a referral, and I'm getting into that 1st air quotes, like, sales conversation. Where how do you, like, what do you how do you guide me? What do you start thinking about?
Nikki [00:03:37]:
Yeah. So the first thing you wanna think about is what's your pre frame? What do you say at the start of the call? And then what are the questions that you have prepared to ask? I truly believe that questions are the name of the game in sales. So you need to be able to ask really strategic questions that start to plant the seeds about your expertise and what you bring to the table. So instead of being like, oh, I feel like I gotta dance in this call and, like, prove my worth. No. You need to ask really smart questions that lets the other person go like, Oh, I didn't even think to that I needed to know that, but because you're asking, that demonstrates that you know something I don't know. So, of course, I need to find out more. And in order to do that, I need to hire you.
Nikki [00:04:23]:
Yes. So asking really smart questions, and then Then, you know, you move to the next piece in the conversation, which is I just to back up just for 1 step here, I teach a 5 step process to a sales conversation. I caught the selling staircase, and step 3, 4, and 5 is kind of what I'm kinda going over with you right now. Like, discovery or sales call is step 3. Yeah. Step 4 is proposal. So when you get to the place where you're gonna lay out your offer, there are some specific things that you do and say there. So for instance, If you have a couple ways that this person could potentially work with you, you always wanna lay out your offer top down.
Nikki [00:05:02]:
So you wanna start with your more expensive offer and work your way down, and there's reasons for that. Mhmm. And then Step 5 is what's known as the close. And in the close, it's it's the 2nd most missed step in the selling staircase because Most people get to step 4 and they lay out their offer and they don't know what to do or say next, so now the call gets awkward and weird. But if you have some closed language, it's really easy to put that in front of somebody, say it to somebody, and then it allows for the other person to do 1 of 5 things, which is the most important. Like, make a decision to say yes to hiring you. Mhmm. Say no.
Nikki [00:05:44]:
They're not interested. Ask a question. Issue an objection or set up the next conversation, which is the I need think about it response. Mhmm. Mhmm. So people get so scared and freaked out of like, well, I gave them my price, and now I don't know what to do, and say, Well, you have to close because if you don't attempt to close, you what happens is in the mind of the buyer, they think I'll decide later, but they don't decide later because they're busy, and they've got a 1000000 other decisions to make. Yeah. And you lose that business, and now you waste a bunch of Time and energy trying to chase somebody down who starts ghosting you.
Nikki [00:06:22]:
That really shouldn't happen in your sales conversations. And if you go through a process and you have some language around it, it saves the seller so much angst, so much energy, so much time Yeah. That they're not just wasted on people who aren't gonna buy from you anyway.
Heidi [00:06:40]:
Yeah. Or
Nikki [00:06:41]:
it Also helps you close that business faster so you can get the work started, and now we get to actually deliver results.
Heidi [00:06:48]:
Yeah. Okay. So I've I've got a bunch of questions. I'm gonna kinda go back to the very beginning.
Nikki [00:06:54]:
Yeah.
Heidi [00:06:54]:
You said I'm taking notes here too because you're saying so many great things. You said you start with a pre frame. Mhmm. Talk to me about that. Like, what does that look like? You're kinda setting the tone for the call, I imagine. Like Yep. Can you give some examples of, like, how you might think about pre framing that conversation?
Nikki [00:07:09]:
Yeah. There's a couple things you wanna do in the pre frame. You wanna make sure that you specifically check-in and start to It's it's this is from my background in neurolinguistic programming. So Yeah. What you're doing in the pre framing is you're pacing and leading. You gotta pace before you can lead. So The thing about the pre frame is you have to create safety for the other person, which sounds kind of odd, especially if you're a seller who's like, I'm just so happy I got this call, and I feel nervous. Why do I need to create safety for them? Yeah.
Nikki [00:07:40]:
I'm the one who feels threatened. Right? But if you don't create safety in the mind of the buyer, They can't relax in the conversation. So an example of a pre frame is I might start by saying, you know, Heidi, thank you so much for taking this time To meet with me today, we're scheduled to chat for about 20 minutes. Does that still work in your schedule? So just by doing that, it helps Set the stage as to what we're gonna be like, how much time we're gonna be together. Because the thing that everybody is short on is time. And if somebody isn't sure how long the call's gonna take and they think, like, should I say something? Because I have to leave to pick the kids up from school in 25 minutes or I've got another call scheduled or whatever. They can't stay present in the conversation. So by checking in, making sure, 1st and foremost, that that time is still allotted, it sets that, like, oh, okay.
Nikki [00:08:33]:
Now I can start to, like, Relax into the conversation because I know how long it's gonna take. And then the next part of the pre frame is I usually will say, now in order to make this time meaningful and productive For you, is it okay if I start with a couple quick questions? That's my way of asking permission to lead the conversation. Yeah. Most people don't preframe their sales calls or their discovery calls, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. And because they don't preframe, What happens is it becomes a time suck because the person starts like, the prospect takes control of the call, Yes. They wanna tell you all the things about, like, where they got their idea and why they started, you know, down this road and all the bad experiences they've ever had and which is all interesting, but not necessary to earn their business. Yeah.
Nikki [00:09:25]:
And it starts to muddy the waters, and it Sucks up all the time, and then you don't ever get to the heart of the matter of, like, do you have a problem? Do I have a solution? Should we work together?
Heidi [00:09:37]:
I love it so much. A lot of my students have gotten in situations similar to this. What happens a lot in in fashion is they'll be talking to a brand, and the brand you know, the design director, whoever they're talking to, is used to, like, interviewing people for, like, full time roles.
Nikki [00:09:58]:
Uh-huh.
Heidi [00:09:59]:
And immediately, the freelancer, like, The conversation slips right out of their hands, and it turns into, like, an interview. And I always tell them, like, listen. I go, this is a muscle. Like, you've gotta exercise it. And depending on personality types, some people could be really assertive and, like, take control of conversation really fast. But going in with structure like this. And I do also always advise, like, going in with questions and and, like, leading that call really early on. So so, yeah, it's easy to kinda slip into that either, like, the founder's just dumping all the information on you or the design director's used to interviewing for employee roles and just turns into interview mode, which is not gonna get you, like you said, the end result that we're looking for here.
Heidi [00:10:40]:
So I love that pre frame strategy. It's like just a couple quick sentences to set the stage and the tone for, like, how this call's gonna go. 20 minutes, I'm gonna start by asking you questions. Does that sound good? Yes. Let's go. Yeah. Go ahead.
Nikki [00:10:53]:
And the other thing I was gonna say about that is that in a sales conversation, when it when it's your business, it's really important for you to remember, there should always be a balance of power between you and the prospect. Yeah. So if you let it go into a mode where this person is Interviewing you, they now hold the power in the conversation.
Heidi [00:11:14]:
Sure do.
Nikki [00:11:15]:
And you need to balance that power out because, otherwise, you just sound like a candidate.
Heidi [00:11:21]:
Yes.
Nikki [00:11:21]:
Right? You don't wanna be seen as a candidate. You wanna be seen as I'm a professional. Mhmm. And I'm interviewing you as much as you're interviewing me to see whether or not I wanna work with you, and I'm gonna make that decision. So When you can set that stage of that, there is a balance of power. I don't wanna hold more power over the client because they'll go find someone else to work with that It doesn't make them feel less than, but they don't get to hold power over me because the truth of the matter is they will think less of you. Your credibility will be diminished. So we've gotta balance power, and the way that you balance power is by starting with a pre frame and setting the stage.
Nikki [00:12:01]:
Now Could it still go off the rails? Could they still try to go into interview mode? Yes. But you've got some skills now where you can bring it back around. You know, you can answer one of their questions and then go right back to now in order for this to be meaningful and productive, is it okay if I ask you some questions? Right. Like, you can you can answer their question and then go right back with yours, get permission Yeah. To ask right back for them. Yeah. You don't you don't have to just let them Take control because I always say, like, if you get into mode of, like, dance, monkey, dance, they'll they'll want you to dance for them, and you shouldn't Do that in a sales conversation because it does diminish your credibility.
Heidi [00:12:40]:
Yeah. For sure. For sure. I love all these points so much. As a sales and, like, psychology and marketing nerd. I'm like, I love the nuances of this of this conversation. Okay. So we start with the pre frame, which I love.
Heidi [00:12:53]:
And then if it starts to slip, you can always bring it right back. Yeah. And then you said lead into to the conversation with some like you're saying, okay. Is it okay if I start by asking you some questions and you say smart questions? Give me some examples, and and I know that it can depend on the context and the nuances of the situation and how the the, the relationship started, but, like, just from a high level, what are some ideas of types of questions that you might wanna be asking at this point?
Nikki [00:13:19]:
So I always work with clients specifically to help them come up with their specific questions for their business, but I usually say, take the things that make you unique, the thing that you're offering that really sets you apart in your marketplace. And, you know, write out what those things are, which sometimes feels uncomfortable because you feel like, well, I'm just tooting my own horn. Well, yeah, It's your business. You need to. Right? Nobody else is gonna do it for you. So Yeah. Write those things out and then see if you can turn them into a question. So for instance, I was listening to one of your podcasts, and, the person that you were talking with was talking about like, he didn't know ahead of time that he needed a tech stack.
Nikki [00:13:59]:
I think I'm saying that wrong. Right? But help me with that. Tech pack. Sorry.
Heidi [00:14:04]:
Yeah. That's okay.
Nikki [00:14:04]:
That he needed a tech pack and how important it was, but he didn't know that going in. Yeah. So the person that, he hired, I think she was a client of yours, and he was really singing her praises.
Heidi [00:14:14]:
Yeah.
Nikki [00:14:15]:
And so a Perfect question for her would be something around this tech pack. Like, have you already seen the value of what your tech pack is gonna bring in your in your negotiations, for instance. Yeah. Because she asked that question In the in that conversation, the person who doesn't even like, an idiot like me, I don't know what a tech pack is. Right? I'm not from fashion industry. So I would be like, wait. What do you mean tech pack? Like, what no. How how is that gonna help me in my negotiations? Will that just planted the seed that.
Nikki [00:14:48]:
I I'm sorry. I can't remember what her name was. Do you remember?
Heidi [00:14:51]:
I think are you talking about the episode with Sexy Ted? Yes. Okay. Yeah. It was Crystal Lewis. Crystal.
Nikki [00:14:57]:
I was gonna say Crystal, but I didn't wanna say it wrong. Yeah. So okay. So and I don't know, Crystal. And I don't know secretary either. Right? So, this may or may not be an appropriate question, but for her to be able to plant that seed because it sounded like that was something that really made her stand out as far as what what she brought to the table. Mhmm. So she needs a question around that that's gonna let the person go, oh, Yeah.
Nikki [00:15:23]:
I I guess we don't have a tech pack or Yeah. What does that mean? Right? And now they're leaning in. When somebody's like, What does that mean? Or why is that important? Or why do I need that? They're leaning into you, and you want people leaning in because that's them really at this point going, like, tell me more. I'm curious. You obviously know something I don't know, and that's a really good sign with your questions. Now there are standard sales questions that you should be asking. Right? Like, what's your time frame? Who besides is involved in the decision making process. You need to know who are the players in the decisions.
Nikki [00:16:00]:
Mhmm. And what's your budget, frankly, or what have you, you know, allocated for this? Those are really standard sales questions, and you should be asking them. And you need to have some questions that really highlight who you are and what you bring to the table.
Heidi [00:16:18]:
How do you I have a couple questions here. So k. Based Piggybacking off what you just said, I need questions that highlight who I am and what I bring to the table. Is that that tech pack op, example? So basically saying, I know how to do really amazing tech packs. Just turning that into a question of like okay. Well, first, do you know do you understand the nuances of a tech pack and why you need a professional one to get the designs made? And they're like, I don't really understand a tech pack or why I actually need 1. And you've instantly kind of placed yourself as I say expert lightly because people can freak out of that word, but I'm not an expert. Right? But, like, you at least are, like, one, 3, 5, 10 steps ahead of the person that you're talking to.
Heidi [00:16:57]:
You know at least what a tech pack is, and you can help guide them in that sense.
Nikki [00:17:01]:
Yeah. And especially if that's part of your Service, right, or if that's something that you're helping them do. Yeah. So it's gonna make sense when you make the offer to bring back in the offer itself of how they're gonna end up with this tech pack that they need and how it's gonna help them. So that's why it's just it's so critical that these questions plant seeds around, oh, That obviously, that's something that I need in order to get my design, you know, to fruition or to whatever it is I'm trying to do in the marketplace. So Yeah. Yeah. Your questions are so critical.
Heidi [00:17:37]:
Okay. So what if like, that works really well for that example because Mhmm. Sexy Ted, which you guys will link to that episode in the show notes. He was new to the fashion industry. He was startup founder. And a lot of times in those scenarios, The founder doesn't know all the nuances of getting a design made and etcetera. But what if you're talking to an existing company. I mean, it could be in any realm, right, whether it's fashion or something else, where they understand, like, the nuances of the pieces and parts that they need to get the job done.
Heidi [00:18:11]:
They just need someone to come in who can do it. And Asking a question around that type of topic wouldn't be relevant. Like, every existing brand in the world knows what a tech pack is, and they understand why they need 1. So and, arguably, any and all of the services you're gonna be offering them to some extent. I mean, beyond the fact that, Like, maybe you're amazing and you just deliver on time and you're really easy to work with and, like, all those added value things. But as far as, like, the core work that you would be doing for them, They know that. They just need, like, the extra help. What types of questions might you think about in that type of scenario?
Nikki [00:18:47]:
Okay. So in that kind of scenario. One of the things that you might wanna be thinking about is, so how important is it that you have, immediate access to the person that is in charge of x, y, z for your for your line or whatever it is. Like, it could be something around availability For you, like, is is your availability like, are you somebody who's liberally available? Mhmm. Or how important is it that the person is local to where you are. I don't know if that's a criteria or not. Right? But so think about what are those things about you being the person who delivers, or, it could be even in the way that you track the work that you do for them. Like, is it important to you to be able to get a report that shows, you know, what's been worked on and and where things are in the process.
Nikki [00:19:38]:
So if that's something that you have available now, again, Help me with this because that might not be a 100% right on to your answer, which I'm totally fine with you. Put you back on that. Because I'm not from the fashion industry, I don't know that I know specific, but I do this with clients across the board. So sometimes it's just helping me understand what are the things that make you unique, and I can almost always give you the question for it. Yeah. So
Heidi [00:20:06]:
Let me talk about this from maybe, like, a more high level, and then I think you'll probably wrap your head around it a little bit Okay. More based on the nuances of our industry. So I often, encourage people to do a tremendous amount of customer research to understand, like, what are the pain points and what are the dreams of, like, these various And, like, if you're working with a small startup, the pain points are very different than, like, if you're working with a medium or large established brand. Mhmm. Like, a small start at pain point is like, they don't even know what they don't know. Right? They don't even know that they need a tech pack or what it is. If you're working with, like, a smaller me or, like, a medium or some type of established brand. Right? They've done a few seasons.
Heidi [00:20:42]:
They understand what a tech pack is and how to go into development and all that stuff. It might just be a matter of They hate doing tech packs. They just don't like that role or, they can't really warrant having someone on their team full time or they've gotten in a situation where, you know, they've had flaky freelancers who, like, aren't delivering on time or They still just, for some reason, they feel like the tech pack process is a pain, and their samples are coming back inaccurate because the tech pack wasn't thorough enough and it's taking, like, 5 samples to get through to the finished prototype, which is costing time and money in development. Right? So I know from I, this, you know, freelancer who's working with you to do my sales better, I know that, okay, this medium sized brand. They know how to do tech packs, but there's these various little pain points that I know they might be experiencing. So maybe it's just kind of leading with, like which is kind of what I teach is where are things getting stuck in your tech packs. Like, what are the challenges that you're having with the tech packs? Like where are things going wrong, where are things falling through the cracks, or something like that. Just kinda getting a bigger picture of, like, people often people are very aware of the problems that they're having.
Heidi [00:22:01]:
They don't always know the
Nikki [00:22:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi [00:22:03]:
But if you can get someone talking about their problems and then you can kinda come in and say, like, oh, great. Well, here's how I can make sure that doesn't happen, or here's how I can get 5 samples down to 2 samples, and we can get things through the pipeline faster, save you ton of money, etcetera. So that's the way that I think about it based on our industry. How does that resonate with you and your very extensive sales training?
Nikki [00:22:25]:
Yeah. So I think that's super helpful what you just gave me. So for instance, the the one about the samples. Right? So if you were to ask somebody, you know, typically, how many samples are you having to get in order before you could move forward with something. And if somebody said 5, Then you could plant a seed right there and say, so, how important is is it to you to to reduce that number by
Heidi [00:22:49]:
half or more? Mhmm. Okay.
Nikki [00:22:52]:
So if you understand that and you know and and now if they say, like, it's not important, well, I'm gonna guess that most of your Clients wouldn't say that. Right? Like, who doesn't wanna reduce their sample number. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's a prime question, though, Because it starts to plant the seed in their minds of like, oh, so if we worked with you, that would be a focus for you is to help us reduce our sample numbers.
Heidi [00:23:17]:
Yeah.
Nikki [00:23:17]:
And overall, you know, I'm I'm assuming that's overhead. Right? And Yeah. It just expense. Right? So Yeah. That, I think, is an important question to work into the conversation to start to plant that seed that you know, one of the things that my clients find the most valuable is that We are able to reduce their samples by 50% or more. That's pretty traditional when we get involved with this part of the business. Yeah. So, you know, asking asking questions like, what is the biggest struggle right now? Like, what's the goal? What's the struggle? How close are you to achieving that goal? And, you know, what prompted you to have this conversation with me? All of those things are they're gonna be giving you information.
Nikki [00:24:01]:
Yeah. And I always say make sure you're taking notes. Write down those key phrases, those things that they're commenting on because then when you deliver back a potential offer for them. You wanna use their key phrases and their keywords more than you wanna talk about it with your lingo or the way that you talk about it at your firm. That is totally irrelevant. It's more important to talk about it in the way the client talks about it. Yes. Because now it's like, oh, I feel like Heidi gets me.
Nikki [00:24:29]:
Like, she's speaking right to me. She's got the solution for our problem, so we can trust her.
Heidi [00:24:35]:
Yeah. I talk a lot about using the client language right back at them. I'm, like, literally jot down all those words.
Nikki [00:24:41]:
That's right.
Heidi [00:24:42]:
And you want that all spread it out through everything. So much magic in that simple strategy there. Okay. So we've preframed. We've asked a bunch of questions. And then, you said top down proposal and then you close. Yep. Am I missing something in there?
Nikki [00:25:04]:
No. So when you so the next piece is to move them from the discovery piece, that question piece, and move them to the place of of making an offer. Now the way that you move clients from 1 step to the next, so in this case, from what I call the discovery portion of the call to the proposal piece is you ask permission or you invite them. Mhmm. So a typical invitation would be, you know, based on what you've shared, I do see some ways that we could work together. Are you interested in hearing about what those might be? Wait. See what they say next. That's just 1.
Nikki [00:25:37]:
Yeah. Right? Like, who's gonna say no to that? And then when you lay out your offer, this is this is really where I think the selling is happening. Like, where what most people kind of picture as traditional selling, You really shouldn't be doing that prior to getting to the proposal stage if you're doing selling. And an example of that is a lot of times people will ask a question And in that discovery, they'll let the prospect answer, and then they'll start selling a solution. And then they'll ask another question. Now the prospect will Give an answer that kinda changes what it was that they were gonna recommend, and now they'll start selling another solution. That's a huge mistake because you're mudding the water. So You wanna keep your your question piece really clear and clean.
Nikki [00:26:23]:
So you don't wanna comment on their responses. You don't need to sell on on their responses. You wait. You get permission. You move them to the proposal. And then This is where you stand in your place of credibility and authority, and you recommend the right solution for their needs. And sometimes there's a difference between recommending the right solution and recommending what you think the person will pay. And that in order to stand in integrity, you should recommend what they need and the solution they need.
Nikki [00:26:57]:
Now If they've been really clear to you and they say, look. We're only looking to invest $50,000 in this piece of the project And to work with you, it's $100,000. Right? Like Mhmm. Maybe there's a disconnect there. Or if maybe they say we have 50,000, but really for the project they're asking, it's only a 25,000. You don't wanna recommend more than what they need, and you don't wanna undersell it either because then they'll be unsatisfied. So it's okay to say to them, You know, based on what you've shared, my recommendation for you would be this package that includes all of these things. It's 50,000.
Nikki [00:27:33]:
I know you mentioned your budget is only 25,000. We can look at a solution that gets you started if you're interested. So of those 2, which would you be most interested in moving forward with? That's me closing, by the way. I'm checking to see if Yeah.
Heidi [00:27:49]:
Are
Nikki [00:27:49]:
we ready to move to this next step. So, or if maybe you only have 1 solution that is the right solution for them, It's okay to just put 1 solution in front of somebody. I always say don't ever put more than 3 initially in front of somebody. And if you're gonna put 3, You have to do top down selling. And so what that means is, let's say you have 3 solutions. 1 is, I'm totally making up pricing here, Heidi. So if I'm, like, so crazy, I'll
Heidi [00:28:19]:
The numbers are a little high for my audience.
Nikki [00:28:21]:
They're a little high. Okay.
Heidi [00:28:22]:
Yeah. So I would say let's say, like, 10,000, 5,000, 25100, or maybe something like that.
Nikki [00:28:29]:
Okay. So perfect. So if somebody says, well, what's it cost to work with you? Or you've You've moved to that part in the disc or in the proposal where you're ready to move and lay out the offer. You could say, so there are 3 ways that we can work together, And they range in price from 25100 to 10,000. Now at 10,000, here's what you get, and you explain the $10,000 offer first. Then you can move your way down from there. But one of the things people often do is they start with the 25100 and they explain that. And then they go, well, if you wanna spend more money, you can, but and then you'll get more.
Nikki [00:29:08]:
And then if you spend even more money, then you get more. People don't like that. It it, like, messes with our brains. I always say it's like people If you do it the other way, if you start at the top and work your way down, we naturally, as humans, start to attach ourselves to things. So if you start at the $10,000 offer and you explain what's included, people don't wanna give up those things to save money. Yeah. They don't wanna spend more to get them, but they don't wanna give them up to save money. Does that Makes sense.
Heidi [00:29:43]:
Right? Right. Totally makes sense. Just the sales psychology behind it. Once you've explained that $10,000 package To me, I've gotten really excited about all the things that are included in it, and and I don't wanna like, I think there what what is it? It's It's more painful for people to lose something that they already have than it is for them to not gain something that they didn't have.
Nikki [00:30:07]:
That's right.
Heidi [00:30:07]:
Am I kinda thinking about that the right way with this You you
Nikki [00:30:10]:
know that. You totally know.
Heidi [00:30:12]:
So this is interesting, and I just sent out a big proposal for a brand partnership, and I did not do top down.
Nikki [00:30:20]:
Do it next time, Heidi. I really recommend it. It will make such a difference. Yeah.
Heidi [00:30:25]:
Yeah. Okay. So go ahead.
Nikki [00:30:27]:
I was gonna say, the thing about it is it doesn't always mean that the person will pick the most expensive. Shirts. But they are much more likely to pick the right solution for them versus like, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna go with the basic package and see where I can get. No. They're much actually, they're much more likely to buy the the package that makes the most sense for them. And as a matter of fact, I work with this. I work with clients all the time on this. So one of the first questions I ask them when we're trying to figure out their offer is, like, what is the thing you most wanna sell? And, usually, somebody will say let's let's say they'll they'll go, well, I've got this $5,000 offer, and I feel really good about it.
Nikki [00:31:08]:
And then I'll ask, okay. What's the offer above it? And they go, I don't have an offer above it. And I go, well, we need to create 1 because we need an anchor offer for that higher price. Because sometimes when you say to somebody, it ranges between 2510,000, they go, Well, I don't think I need to spend 10,000, but now the $5,000 offer looks real sexy.
Heidi [00:31:30]:
Yeah.
Nikki [00:31:30]:
Right? So it helps them make a better decision for themselves. So so if you said to me, what I really wanna sell, Nikki, is my $10,000 offer, Then I would say, okay. We need to create a $20,000 offer to sit above it. We need an anchor. Mhmm. Now careful because the one thing you don't wanna do is create an anchor that you don't wanna sell. So only create an offer that you wanna sell because Take it from me. I've learned this the hard way.
Nikki [00:31:58]:
If you sell the anchor and then have to deliver on it and feel like, dang. I did not price that way too low or, you know, whatever.
Heidi [00:32:05]:
I just didn't wanna do that option.
Nikki [00:32:07]:
Yeah. I never thought anybody would pick that option. Nope. Believe it or not. And my clients come back to me all the time, and they're like, somebody picked my higher offer. And I'm like, yeah. Because sometimes people just want they want it everything. They want it all done.
Nikki [00:32:21]:
Yeah. And they're so happy to pay for it. You just gotta make sure that you're happy to deliver on it.
Heidi [00:32:27]:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great points there. So for my average listener and or even, like, average student who's just starting out in freelancing, Creating a package of, like, 25, 105,000, 10000, I think can feel quite daunting. They're like, I'm not quite there yet. Like, what do these packages even look like? You know, they're still kind of land they're they've been an employee. Let's just say they've been an employee their whole life.
Heidi [00:32:57]:
This is their 1st venture into freelancing. Maybe they don't fully have these packages fleshed out based on they just don't know their clients' needs that well and, you know, figuring out all those nuances. So I'm on this phone call, And I've gone through I've set the pre frame. I've gone through my questions, and I'm like, great. Let me make some type of offer and try to get to some type of clothes to work together, but I'm likely gonna need to, like, go back to the drawing board. Mhmm. And crunch some numbers, maybe get some help from some people behind the scenes of, like, well, hey. They want me to do this thing.
Heidi [00:33:35]:
How do I even price this? What do I do? Or maybe they're even working hourly. And I know there's a lot of poo poo on hourly rates. I do actually suggest people Start hourly depending on where they're at in their career just for simplicity purposes, and then project based pricing can get really tricky. It's very easy to underprice. So where would I go in the conversation if I just didn't have all this stuff already built out, these packages.
Nikki [00:34:03]:
Yeah. So and that's okay. Right? Like, we all have to start, and you have to figure it out. So Yeah. There's nothing wrong with this scenario if that's you listening right now, and you're like, that's me. Great. Perfect. You're in the great spot.
Nikki [00:34:15]:
So here's what you do. So you would say to the client, you know, based on what you've shared, I do have some ideas of ways that we could work together. I'd like to take a a day or 2 and put together an offer for you that I think is going to make the most sense. Can we go ahead and schedule a time on our calendars now? I'll send that over to you, but let's get it on our calendars to review it together. Now before you get them off the call, you schedule your next call with them. Because if you say, I need some time to think about it, and I'm gonna put the offer together, and then I'm just gonna send it to you. Now it goes into the black hole, and you might never hear from them again. So this piece of I call that a circle back call, and it is so crucial to your success.
Nikki [00:35:01]:
So I don't care what you do over the next 2 days to put together the offer for them. I care that you have a circle back call scheduled. If you don't have a circle back call scheduled with them, the chance of you earning that business diminishes day by day significantly. Yes. So they get busy. They forget how interested they were in what you said, and they forget to look at your offer. And you send it over to an email, And maybe they look at it or maybe they don't, but they don't look at it at a time where they can dedicate any, you know, precious, like, time, like, mental energy to it Yeah. So they never decide to hire you.
Heidi [00:35:38]:
You just it's buried. That's right.
Nikki [00:35:40]:
It's like push below the fold. You ever wanna be pushed below the fold. So if you have that sir that circle back call scheduled, now what's gonna happen is they're like, oh my gosh. I have a call with Heidi in, like, 10 minutes. I better look at that email. Like, review it, go through it, and then now I've got some questions for her. And the thing about getting back on that call with them and walking them through the offer is it allows for you to answer the questions that come up for them. And the the truth of the matter is one of my Coaches said to said this to me years ago is he said, Nikki, most people are 1 question away from hiring you.
Nikki [00:36:14]:
And the piece that I add to this is you have to give them the opportunity to ask you the question in order to earn their business. Yeah. So we have to walk them through the proposal. And if you send it and it just goes out into, like, la la land, we're we're never gonna earn that business. And all that time an energy and angst that you spent putting together this brand new offer that you're trying to figure out if it's if it's a viable Offer or not. You're not even gonna get any feedback Yeah. Because you didn't schedule the circle back call. So I feel really strongly about this.
Nikki [00:36:51]:
This is like a soapbox Box issue for me. You have to schedule that next time to chat, and you have to walk them through the proposal because you we just we've gotta get those questions uncovered in order to earn that next step of their business. So don't be afraid to get on the call and say, again, a pre frame at the start. You know, the purpose of this call today is to review that proposal, answer any questions that come to mind for you, and then talk about next steps for us working together. Now have you had a chance to review the proposal? What questions have come to mind? Like, I'm just repeating what I just said. And then at the end, after I've answered your questions, I say, okay. Are you ready to get started? Should we go ahead and schedule the 1st time that we're gonna meet or whatever makes sense
Heidi [00:37:38]:
in the business? Okay. I love that circle back more than you know. I Appreciate your soapboxiness because, yeah, this is not a strategy I've taught before or I've really heard before, Although it makes absolute sense, but this ghosting thing is real. It happens. Yeah. And I'm often talking with students and giving them ideas on how to, like, get that lead back. Right? But I love this because you're you're you're you're preventing it in the 1st place. It's preventative.
Heidi [00:38:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. Instead of reactive.
Nikki [00:38:17]:
That's right. That's right. That's a 100% what it is. Because if you're trying to chase somebody to get back on the call with you or to try to, like, If you think you're gonna just send them an email and they're gonna respond, what's the chance of that happening? Or you're gonna pick up the phone and they answer. I mean, I don't know about you, but If you're not on my calendar and you call me, I am not answering my phone. Like, I don't know your phone calendar. Right? Yeah. So Yeah.
Nikki [00:38:40]:
So what are the chances Chances you're gonna get them on a call. And ghosting is such a like, it's so prevalent, but it's and most of the time, it's prevalent because we didn't do the work the the prework. Like, we didn't make it easy for that person. Mhmm. Because, again, most of us live and breathe our calendars. If you're on somebody's calendar and And they're on yours. When you call, they're gonna answer.
Heidi [00:39:05]:
Yeah. I love that. I love that. Okay. So we know how to submit the proposal one way or another, depending on if we have our pricing figured out. Yeah. And to get the connect with them again. So and you you've done it a couple times in our conversation, but I want you to break it down a little bit more, like, going in to ask for that close.
Heidi [00:39:27]:
So can you talk a little bit more about the nuances and the structure of how that question should look or what it you know, how it should be formatted.
Nikki [00:39:36]:
Yeah. So the closed question is a yes or no question. Okay? So sometimes in sales, and I teach this too, there are certain questions you don't want to be yes or no questions. But with a closed question, it should be a yes or no. And the reason for it is because you're saying to that person's brain, make a decision. And our brains are lazy, and they are overloaded. I don't know. Have you heard the stat? There's a there's a couple of them out there about The average adult makes a certain number of decisions a day.
Nikki [00:40:07]:
Have you heard this before already?
Heidi [00:40:09]:
Like 10,000 or something. I mean, it's obscene how many decisions.
Nikki [00:40:12]:
Yeah. If you think about, like, how many decisions do you think you make in a day, they say the average adult makes between 30,600,000 decisions. I mean, most people don't guess even as high as you guess. Sure.
Heidi [00:40:25]:
They're like a 100. Yeah.
Nikki [00:40:27]:
Yeah. I get that all the time in trainings where people are like, think I've made a 100 decisions today. Right? Yeah. So the thing about it is our brains are lazy. Our our brains are overtaxed. And if we don't have to make a decision, we won't. So when you get to the close, the close question need needs to be a yes or no question. So it's it could be anything from, Are you ready to get started? Should we schedule your 1st session? Is this a proposal you'd like to move forward on? Right? Those are all closed questions.
Nikki [00:40:56]:
Now Here's a couple little nuances to it is once you've asked a closed question, you zip it. You stop talking, which is hard in sales. But once you've asked a closed question, you are now playing the game. Whoever speaks 2nd wins. Okay? You cannot keep talking. Most people, what they'll do is they'll Ask a closed question, but they're nervous, and so they ramble. And that's called selling past the close, and it's a huge mistake because now you're trampling on that person's, like, time that they're taking to make a decision, and a confused brain does not buy. So zip it, be quiet, and just wait and see what they say next.
Nikki [00:41:45]:
That uncomfortable silence. Yeah. Yeah. I one time had, she's a sales like, she's a mentor of mine, a business mentor of mine, and she's like, Nikki, I can't I can't be quiet. I don't know how. Tell me how, and I said put your lips together and press. Like, that's the answer. That's it.
Nikki [00:42:02]:
Just hold it. Just wait. It's not even gonna be as long as you think. Yeah. It's gonna be but just wait.
Heidi [00:42:09]:
See what they say. Literally bite your tongue. Yeah. It's hard. Especially I mean, uncomfortable silences are uncomfortable even with people that we know when we're not in, like, a pressured environment. Right? But silence can be good. Just take a few deep breaths and let the person react.
Nikki [00:42:30]:
Silence is an advanced selling skill. So every single person listening, if you're willing to do this, you now can say you have an advanced Skill in selling.
Heidi [00:42:42]:
Yeah. I love it. Okay. To circle back to the very beginning and I think you've already planted some of these seeds throughout. But you said that right at the end of the day, sales comes down to your voice. Like, I'm not gonna sell like you, Nikki. You're not gonna sell like me. And so it's sometimes working out the nuances of your own voice and what that process looks It's like and and also the nuances of, like, what you're selling in your industry, I think, can can make some variations.
Heidi [00:43:11]:
I'm sure high level structurally that it's all the same. But you did say that there were some I'm gonna I'm this is not the word you used, but some more formulaic type of sentences that you can use or strategies. Do you remember what I'm talking about? Yeah.
Nikki [00:43:28]:
I think well, I think so. You told me. Okay. Yeah. So can you just
Heidi [00:43:31]:
share, like, some of those more cut and dry sentences? And and I imagine some of them are in the close.
Nikki [00:43:36]:
Yeah. Some of them are in the close. Some of them are, a couple things that come to mind. And I feel like that this is a big question, so we could probably just, like, do a whole episode So that was, like, just on that. Okay. But some of the more kind of standard things to think about and be ready to say is, What would it take to earn your business? I love that line. Don't shy away from that question. It's such a great question.
Heidi [00:44:05]:
That one down right now. Yeah.
Nikki [00:44:06]:
Most people Haven't thought of it, and so until you pose it to them, they don't even know the answer. But because you're willing to pose it to them And then they have to actually think of the answer, which our brains are like Google. And if you go to Google right now and you type in anything, doesn't matter what it is, Google tries to give you an answer. So this is why the brain loves questions is because it it can then try to give you an answer. So If you're not sure what to say or do, ask a question, period. Like, just ask a question and see what happens because their brain wants to answer. So what would it take to earn your business? And then wait and see what they say. A tongue.
Nikki [00:44:55]:
Bite the tongue and see what they say because they might be like, well, nobody's ever asked me that before. Wait. Their brain is still processing. Mhmm. Don't justify it. Don't explain why you're asking. Just wait and see what they say next because it could just Be that they're like, well, I just need x, y, and z. And you're like, I have x, y, and z.
Nikki [00:45:16]:
No problem. Should we go ahead and get started? Right? Like,
Heidi [00:45:20]:
be willing to take the clothes. Almost. Yeah.
Nikki [00:45:22]:
Yeah. Like, they've just said, like, this is it. This is what it's gonna take. So Yeah. If you can deliver on that and you could show that you can deliver on that, yeah, don't be afraid to ask for somebody's business. Yeah. Another thing that I will say about that is I don't even know if I I think I just lost my train of thought or where I was gonna go with that. It's it really comes down to asking a question every step of the way.
Nikki [00:45:49]:
So I always say in each step of the selling staircase, again, I mentioned that's My my signature framework for a sales conversation Mhmm. Is I show that you have to issue an invitation. And so an invitation is the form of the question. So it could be, is this something you'd be interested in chatting more about? Is this something we should we should schedule a time To talk about, do you have your calendar available? Right? Like, these are really simple questions, but this is how you move people through the process. So I guess maybe my big answer is it is about asking a question. At every stage. Yeah. Yeah.
Nikki [00:46:28]:
Because if the person doesn't know what to do or say next, they'll they'll hang out. They'll they don't know what to do, so they're, like, They're waiting for you to take the lead. Yeah. But the way that you can take the lead in a graceful way so that you're not putting all the pressure on yourself to To have the perfect phrase or the perfect thing is you just ask a question. So it's It's it really is that simple in a sales conversation. It's asking questions, waiting, letting the answers come from the person because Most of the selling happens in their mind, and they're deciding because you've asked me great questions, because you've challenged my brain in some way. There's something about working with you that feels right.
Heidi [00:47:13]:
Yeah. And I love all of this too because the the whole idea around asking questions, shows, and makes the prospect feel that you're there to understand them, to help them, to get to know them, and it's about them. It's not about you. Like, know, so many people are like, oh, sales feels gross or slimy. Right? But at the end of the day, like, the way you have this 5, the staircase structured. It's all about like you said, you're not selling them into something they don't need. It's not gross or or scuzzy on any level. It's asking questions, understanding their nuances, where they're coming from, how you can support them, and then literally just, Do you think it makes sense to work together? Be quiet.
Nikki [00:48:08]:
That's right.
Heidi [00:48:08]:
You you
Nikki [00:48:09]:
nailed it. You nailed it. Yeah. I think one of the misconceptions about sales is that people think that selling is something you do to another person, And I teach that selling is something you do with another person. It should be collaborative. And in order to have a collaborative conversation, there needs to be conversation. There needs to be back and forth. And that means that you need to ask questions, but you also need to be able to give them opportunity to ask you questions too.
Nikki [00:48:41]:
So here's another question kind of back to your thing about, like, what are some standard questions. Don't be afraid to ask somebody what questions come to mind for you. Now that's kind of different than what most people say. They say, do you have any questions? Don't say that to people. Do you have any questions? Is a yes or no answer? Closed. And it's a yeah. It's a closed question. But the problem with it is that it's So common that most people have a knee jerk answer to it, and they don't even, like, slow down enough to think if they have a question.
Nikki [00:49:17]:
So if you say, do you have any questions? They have a knee jerk. No. I'm good. But if you say, what questions come to mind for you? They have to slow down and go, Any questions come to mind for me? And that's where their brain will, like, bubble to the surface. Here's the question. And that might be the question Jen, they need answered in order for you to earn their business. So that's another one of my, like, favorite questions to ask, and, also, there's no context to it. What questions come to mind for you is it's non contact specific, which means they could ask anything.
Nikki [00:49:53]:
And so we're just we're giving them free rate.
Heidi [00:49:57]:
Right. It's not about what questions do you have about the proposal or the price? What questions do you have about what it's like to work with me? We're just trying to be so open ended to give them this room and space to think, and come up with anything.
Nikki [00:50:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it'll also give you some insight as to what are the things they're focused on. Because they'll ask questions about the things that seem important to them. You know, my background is in tech technology sales, and one of the best Compliments that I used to get when I would go and do ride days. I worked at the manufacturer level, so I would do ride dates with dealers and distributors. And they would take me and put me in front of their clients, and they used to always say, Nikki, you never get the same presentation twice, but you always get the same information out. And I was like, that's because I'm waiting for their questions.
Nikki [00:50:48]:
I'm letting them ask me questions, and then I'm delivering the information that's important for them to know. Because you could sit here and go, Nikki, tell me everything you know about sales, and I could literally talk for days. Mhmm. But I don't. It doesn't matter what I know about sales. It's what are you interested to know about sales, and can I speak to that? And same for your clients. What are they interested to know about whatever it is that you offer? And if you don't get that And you don't speak to that, then they don't think you can help them, and that's probably not true.
Heidi [00:51:23]:
Mhmm. It's just how you presented or positioned yourself in the conversation. Isn't it doesn't feel like a match even though you can walk away going like, I know I could have done it.
Nikki [00:51:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi [00:51:37]:
This has been unbelievable. I have a bunch of notes. I'm gonna have to, like, look through this and create, like, a high level outline for myself, for sales and strategy. Fabulous. Thank you so much, Nikki, for coming to chat. Where can people connect with you and find you online?
Nikki [00:51:53]:
Can I offer a little gift to your audience? Is that okay?
Heidi [00:51:56]:
Totally. Yes. Please. I love how you
Nikki [00:51:58]:
ask for it. It a couple times. So I mentioned a couple times that I have this 5 step process to a sales conversation. I call it the selling staircase. So I have a training that just Breaks down these 5 steps. It's called mastering the sales conversation. So I would love to gift it to anybody who would like to go and watch it for free. You can get it by going to let me look and make sure I have the right link here.
Nikki [00:52:18]:
Your sales maven.comforward/fashion.
Heidi [00:52:23]:
Awesome.
Nikki [00:52:23]:
So that's for your audience, and they can grab that. It's a short training. It's less than I think it's less than 18 minutes, and it will break down, like, all 5 of the steps and give you tips and techniques along the way so that whatever step feels uncomfortable or still, like, I don't know if I got that one yet. Yeah. Like, you'll walk away with something you can immediately implement.
Heidi [00:52:44]:
I love it. I'm gonna put my email in there, and, we'll put that link in the show notes. I love that so much. And then I'll end with the question that I ask everybody at the end of the interview, and I'll structure it a little differently for you since you're not in fashion. But it is what is one thing that people never ask you about working in sales, replacing that for the word fashion, that you wish they would? I
Nikki [00:53:09]:
love this question so much. I'm gonna say the one thing that people Maybe rarely ever think to ask me about is how do I increase the lifetime value of my clients? And I think in business, you know, instead of always thinking about we gotta go out and find the next client and the next client and the next client, We should be thinking about how can we maximize opportunities with our existing client base. So for me, it's about increasing lifetime value, and I Love, love, love to work with people on ways to do that. Yeah. Because, you know, your your best clients are your repeat clients. They're also the least expensive clients to earn. So
Heidi [00:53:49]:
Yeah. So just how to get ongoing projects, how to maybe even just get also Referrals is kind of a tangent to that. Right?
Nikki [00:53:56]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. But, yeah, increasing life lifetime value of a client, I think, is so Crucial to scaling your business.
Heidi [00:54:04]:
Yeah. We're gonna have to have you back on to talk just about that topic.
Nikki [00:54:08]:
Okay. I would I would love to. I love to talk about it. And rarely any nobody wants to nobody asked me about it. So
Heidi [00:54:15]:
Yeah. Well, I didn't get to it in this conversation, but we will get to it in the future one. Thank you so much come for coming on, Nikki, and sharing all your expertise. Super, super valuable.
Nikki [00:54:24]:
Thanks for having me.