Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:02)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold,
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
Hello everyone, it's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Ruth Kaufman, a former attorney turned actor whose credits span Marvel's She-Hulk and indie features like The Miseducation of Bindu and thousands of voiceovers to Wit. With 16 years of corporate experience and six novels to her name, including a comedy award winning one called My Life as a Star, she's a delightful blend of legal precision, creative range and comedic flair.
You might have also seen her and recognized her from America's Got Talent or America's Funniest People. So what do Ruth and I talk about? We chat about relevancy, how to stay relevant in an industry that's constantly changing and feels out of reach at times and where wins can sometimes feel sort of invisible. We also talk about self-producing, the hang up around view counts and auditioning in the void and how sometimes, you know, persistence doesn't always feel like progress. But maybe that's the point.
Mishu Hilmy (01:43)
of just doing it and yeah, the labor is the reward. So it's a fun chat. And if you want to learn more about Ruth, I'll have info in the show notes. You can check her out at ruthtalks.com and on Instagram and Facebook at ruth.coffman. So that's that. And without further ado, here it is, Ruth and I having a lovely chat.
The changes in the industry, think, are on my mind and a lot of people's minds. You you keep reading about the production decreases in some areas, in others, and then it's hard not to think, well, how do I get either representation or opportunities in this market if this is where things are happening and how do I stay relevant?
Right. So I imagine that those sort of two kind of things, right, the demoralizing experience of you're reading the trades or just hanging out with fellow either actors or filmmakers or creatives and they're just like, oh yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing, there's nothing. So that's sort of like a weird demoralizing spiral. And then the other side is maybe more personal or creative around like relevancy. And I think that's also an interest. I relate to that and the insecurity around what makes something relevant or
desired or wanted in any kind of as a tool, as a creative tool to like use. that's been on your, so like, how have you been dealing with the doom and gloom of the ebbs and flows of this industry as a market and how it fluctuates?
Well, I guess the decrease in work depends on who you are and what you consider work. know some actors, for example, don't like to do commercials or industrials. I do those things. And I also do some corporate role playing, like mock trial witness things. And so if you can compile a bunch of different things, maybe you're not booking TV shows right and left, but you might be booking short films or student films or just to keep working.
Ruth Kaufman (03:40)
If you do have to rely on the income from all of that, that can be challenging because some of those things don't pay quite as much of courses. Network TV show, mean commercials can. But, also too, another thing that's on my mind is the increase in opportunities on one hand, but then the increase in people being seen by self-taping on the other. So it's great to get in the room if you will, but then
You never know how many tapes the casting people actually send on to the client or if they've changed the specs because so many breakdowns these days are male or female presenting any ethnicity. So you don't even know if they've made a more narrowing decision that cuts you out or gives you the opportunity to be considered. just, guess the lack of information has always been a thing.
There's the economics of like the supply and demand of like and being aware, especially when there is like new technology like self tapes and maybe more of a philosophical shift in casting breakdowns in general, or maybe say 10 or 15 years ago, it might have been a higher comfort level of being like, no, we want a, you know, 23 year old, you know, Asian woman or we want a 57 year old white male, like I think those things maybe have shifted into CDs being a little bit more broad and like letting
the self tapes discover new talents. But I think that creates this maybe an awareness of the increase of supply and you're like, don't know, there's only one role, but now it's open to any age range and any sort of look or type.
And of course, I'm grateful for every opportunity. A lot of things seem to be on the one hand, but on the other, I'm grateful for any opportunity on the one hand, but on the other, you do want to think there's some purpose to it. least that the casting director, for example, might watch it and say, oh, that person did a great job. will remember that. You did a great job.
Mishu Hilmy (05:34.177)
Right.
So at least there's a purpose that you're staying on that casting director's radar or that it might go to the client and then the client thinks, not really right for this, but I will request, you want to think that you're on someone's list somewhere and being noticed and not just into the void of just throwing your digital.
things out into the digital world and it's just like if you remember Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Mike TV, like above his head. You don't want to just be little bits floating in the air.
Right. It's like the tough lot of doing acting though is, you know, it's so much is out of your control unless you do decide to like produce or write something that you star yourself in, which is also a very valid route, but it takes a different degree of energy and focus. But like how have you managed or what sort of principles have you been allowing yourself to have to either like let go or be aware of the complete lack of control that, you know, the
Sometimes it is hard, especially if I personally feel I was a good fit for this thing. But then again, on the other hand, sometimes I'll do something and think, well, and then you get a callback or you get the part and it's, you may not think you're the best. Of course you would.
Mishu Hilmy (06:41.133)
Right.
Ruth Kaufman (06:52.024)
do a good job, but you might not think this one's mine, and then it is. And then the one you think, this one is mine, is not. So yes, the lack of control, just sort of do have to just let it go for the win and be grateful for the auditions and the callbacks and bookings you do get. Now, I have a lot of thoughts on the self-producing too, because everyone says, make your own work, make your own work, but then the problem is, how do you get anyone to watch it?
Right. Yeah.
And that seems to be, there was a short film I did, I didn't do it myself, but I was leading it and it did very well in film festivals, so it has all the laurels on the poster. And when it was finally released on YouTube, it still doesn't even have a thousand views. And this is sort of a vetted project. It's not just me saying, I did a short film. And again, I didn't produce this one, but it's concept of, even if I had, I know I have more than however many views, Facebook friends.
And I'm not saying every friend can watch everything, but some production team went through the effort to make this film, enter it in a bunch of festivals, won some awards, things like that, and still has no audience.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think these are like a mix of things because there's producing and then there's publishing. That's like one thing. So like you can have a very passionate and creative producing team. They're excited about it. They, you know, cast really strong actors. They have a really tight script. They spent the, you know, 200 to, $1,000 in festival submission fees. They're so excited to produce and get it out there. And, you know, it's played at festivals with a real live audience. And then
Mishu Hilmy (08:24.844)
that's done and it's like, well, now how do we publish it or distribute it? And most people are going like, all right, I'll just drop it on my production company's YouTube. And that's that. So I think like there's a skill or like a cost associated with this, like spending to like things just don't.
or for the most part, organically get views, at least now in like a more mature 21st century digital audience. So I think that's a part of it. And then also demand doesn't exist until the thing exists and you don't know the level of demand until it's there and out there. So it's like a kind of a harmonic mix of is the producing team promoting it heavily, even regardless of how hard they promote it at the end of the day in the, you know,
April 19th, 2025, do people want to watch this thing? 18 minute thing on YouTube or the segment thing on YouTube or Vimeo or whatever. That's hard to.
And there's just so much content. can't even keep up with the, I'm putting air quotes, the real TV shows and movies that I want to see, much less things, and I don't mean to say that things friends are in aren't real, but you know, with the upper level A-list actor shows, if you will. Well, even though some of my, I'm getting a little off track, but you know, there's so many things I want to see.
And then friends, I'm in this, I'm in that, I can't keep up with those, and I can't keep up with all their go-gos or kickstarters either. And that's another thing, because if you are trying to raise money for a film, how many times can you go back to the same crowd? If you even gave $10 to everyone who came in, there's just so many. Or everyone's plays and shows that they're in, or films that are screening, that would be a full-time job in itself.
Ruth Kaufman (10:05.614)
I would love to be super wealthy and be a patron of the arts, but
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, I mean, the economics, especially in the United States aren't quite there. You know, we're not like European countries where they have public subsidies and you know, like places in Italy where people can have a full time job as a film curator or you know, even an experimental filmmaker because the governments do that. Like what the United States does have is easy access to debt, you know, like credit cards, which I think is not the best, right? Like you can have a no strings attached grants from your government or, you know, Chase Bank like
$18,000 for, you know, something you produced. Yeah.
So it's sort of what is the best use of my time and my funds, which is hard to know as well.
Especially like with what you like what excites you the most because it's like yeah, if you're more drawn toward I just want to show up and act and not necessarily like I got to write this thing hire a crew produce it and then worry about promoting and publishing it like there's only so much time energy and money that you want to exert so it's like being aware of if you're more drawn toward the just showing up embodying a role or a script that's also a solid do you find that like you put a little bit more of a premium on
Mishu Hilmy (11:14.014)
view count like this is that like a metric that's important to you like
Because it means someone, even if it's your cousin, someone's taken the time, and I know YouTube views, you don't have to watch the whole thing, for example. Someone has at least taken the time to click on the thing and watch some of it, which I do think is important because what other metric is there unless some director calls out of the blue and says, I saw your thing and we want to book it, which hasn't happened.
That's right, yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (11:42.35)
Right.
Yeah, yeah, I saw this random short you were in. had 18 views on YouTube, but you know, someone sent it to me and I saw. Yeah, that's like the so I'm just curious. The only reason I asked is it more of a.
a friend of mine who's a musician was just doing a random Instagram live and Jason Razz happened to watch it and then loved him and had him open for a concert. Different than filmmaking but the same concept. He literally had only a handful of people and someone did catch it and moved him forward in his career. But you cannot be live on every platform at all.
Right
Mishu Hilmy (12:19.182)
Yeah, I mean, think luck is luck and there's I wouldn't discount it. I would actually say this industry is, you know, overall, it's very it's luck and talent driven and skill driven. But the more the more times you're you're putting work out there, even if it is only 20 views, if you have 100 projects over three years and each have 20 or 500 views, there's a higher probability of luck where someone who's into the thing you have would want to sort of reach out to you.
It can be a numbers game and that's one of the reasons why I continue to do student films. Now and again, some that don't even pay, some student films do at least pay pretty close to some of what indie films pay. You're meeting up and coming people and you don't know where they'll go or if they'll want to work with you again. So it's just another way to be exposed to crews and other professionals. I also sometimes speak at a Loyola University filmmaking class and I have gotten this
student film here and there from that. It's just another way, a small way to get exposure, but something that's a little more doable and maintainable by the average actor than those who say, I'm going to be nominated for an Oscar this year.
your own sense of integrity around the work you do. So I wonder like what's your filtration or your kind of checkboxes? Because I do think like work begets work and the more things you do, but at the same time, there's also like, okay, I've done enough background. I don't need to do background ever again in my life. like how do you currently, or pardon me, I'm stammering, but what criteria have you been using lately to go? Yes, I'll.
I'll audition for this and if I'm offered it, I'll actually think about taking it.
Ruth Kaufman (14:03.96)
several things. There's obviously compensation. There's the quality of the role. Is it something I want to play? A lot of smaller independent films and student films have what I call the boring parent, which I'm an age to play, where basically it's just, why don't you have a job? Clean up your room. unless you're offering me a ton of money or have somehow an A-list talent to be my husband, I don't need to be
Mm, yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (14:32.33)
a boring parent again. If there's a parent with some reason and some arc, I might consider it. So it's who's the team is important, both behind and in front of the camera. I would be more willing to accept a small role in a project with some names attached because at least, and you're on the IMDB page, if it goes to festivals, you might be tagged in the social media. So it's just a way to be associated with that level of people.
Cause you don't want to think of it maybe that way, but there is an A list and if you don't know their names, you're not on it. And everyone might, I might have a bigger A list than some people cause I do consume quite a lot of media, but there are certain names. If I see they're associated, it's like, I'm auditioning for this. No matter what. So, and there's also, do they pay travel? Do I need to be a local hire? How many days is it for what kind of compensation? So it's sort of a mishmash. What's my current availability?
Right, right, right.
Mishu Hilmy (15:18.84)
Right.
Ruth Kaufman (15:31.372)
So there's a lot of factors I consider. Who is the director?
Mm It seems like there's a fair amount of criteria there. And I imagine like, yeah, to sort of suss out whether through the sides or the breakdown or the script of like, this is just an archetypal or a typal role where maybe I'm a day player there for two days and I'm just playing a sort of story function. And yes, of course, as like an actor, you can provide your your your take on it. You're a sort of little spice to it. But when at the textual level, it's just like, this is flat. I'm willing to do a lot of sweating or a lot of work to
bring myself to this I can understand how that's not necessary
for travel to have three lines. And I'm not putting down these kinds of films at all in a film where there's not even a name of if you search the people, nothing even comes up. I do believe every actor should have some sort of internet presence. If I can't find you, how do I?
the
Ruth Kaufman (16:26.786)
work with you, but that's just me. But the other thing is too, I'm starting to be at a level where some things I audition for are going to A-list name actors who I recognize their names. while it's flattering on the one hand to be in that pool, because not everyone, even if they do broaden the amount of people they are willing to see, not everyone is going to be in a pool where it goes to a household name actor. And it also sort of means even if I'm really good at this role,
Right, yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (16:56.354)
I'm not going to get it because how can a good, I don't even know what list I'd be on, like how far the alphabet you go, but I'm here. Somebody may have seen my tape and maybe they were just in contract negotiations and not sure if they get that person. So then they'd have to move on down, but how good would I have to be? It's just, I don't think it's doable. Even name people need names.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (17:19.202)
Right, right. For me, I sense like a fair amount of like hierarchical thinking, which is like this is fated because of a hierarchy, which I don't necessarily agree with, because I think there is a degree of like trust of people being able to see the best perspective or a perspective for a given role or opportunity. So like my judgment is like the self defeat of like, OK, I'm in a pool of three choices.
I might be a D tier, this person's a B tier and this other person's an A tier. I think to me it's like self-defeating to go, have no chance. like, you fight- Right.
late, it's already done. You know, I wouldn't have known for, do it with all my energy and enthusiasm. And when you see the thing or the deadline article comes out or whatever, and that is like,
Okay, yes, yeah
Mishu Hilmy (18:06.85)
Yeah, yeah,
known for a fact who what name and I'm sure even the name after who did get it maybe they did know who else was being considered but I don't know how many times people know what it is and I just go all in and say they want to see me I'm gonna do it I do not go in with that attitude because you do never know or the contract might have gone through things where so-and-so will factor will say I really wanted to do this but then I had to do this instead
If you're always do say you can't win it if you're not in it, but it is interesting when it is a name actor, then it just becomes, in my opinion, a little more clear that why wouldn't they have more names they can promote it with?
Right.
Mishu Hilmy (18:51.95)
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, more of a post. Yeah, yeah, because I was thinking, I'm like, I don't think I've ever been on an audition where they're like, these are the these are the this is the pool. So I understand what saying. We're like, after the fact, you'll be reading the trades and say, Oh, I remember going out for this Netflix show. Oh, and they ended up with this person or you're watching it and you're like, Oh, that's who they decided on. But it's more of a post fact justification. But even as a justification, it's like.
my name i don't know
Mishu Hilmy (19:19.062)
Yeah, it's like I just I'm just like my spider senses are going off the comparison game where it's like, well, I'm comparing myself where I'm at in my sort of craft or career to someone who's gone through a different price or journey. So like, I'm just sensitive to like what I clock is like, is Ruth just sitting there comparing herself being like, yeah, of course. Like, why would they choose, you know, me instead of this, you know, up and coming sort of exciting, you know, shiny new alien?
Thank you. Yeah, I'm ready to be that. But it does make sense.
Yeah, I think in sort of like a backwards way, because at least what I've been reading about in terms of the economics of Hollywood is that there's no statistical evidence that having an A-lister is going to make more money. It'll just raise the floor of potential. So if you spend, you know, X number of millions on an actor, it's going to make the project more likely to make money. And over the course of 20, 30 years, it's a statistical improbability. So to me,
It gets me thinking as a producing person, that's spent like try not to overextend the expectation of the stars are what make movies great. It's like movies make movies great movies make stars. So it's just something I've been thinking about.
Yes, and I'm going to look for some of those articles because those have not too many of those have not crossed my path. I do here and I know also for a fact for some projects I've worked on that STARS having a couple of names attached are ways to get the financing.
Mishu Hilmy (20:39.63)
Yeah, yeah, it's just...
Mishu Hilmy (20:50.636)
Right, yeah, that's the problem. The problem is it's like culturally as an industry, it's like this is what you need to get a project to go. And that's most people want to produce and finance that way. It's like, you don't, yeah, do you have Leonardo on your producing team? Great. Yeah, we'll take a meeting. We'll shop this around.
sort of where I'm going. yes. How many names you need in a particular thing? I don't know. But I also see a lot of auditions lately more where they're trying to encourage if they're, for example, on Actors Access, they'll say names are clashed or this or that. Yeah. Either I'm not sure who that is aimed. I just
That's such a great noise. It's like the casino. great. It's perfect. Now we're talking about it
access and casting networks that is a fanfare. Yeah, yeah, yeah, can't wait to see that as well. But sometimes those messages you get excited and then you go see we've extend the taping deadline for another rule or something just like I mean that it's irrelevant because I always turn it in on time but. But yeah, no, I'm excited about the projects I've been able to work on with other people, but I do think.
That's fun,
Mishu Hilmy (21:56.156)
nice, yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (22:02.924)
Yeah, it is just a thing that I'm coming across more frequently.
Yeah, I think it's a you know, like you're talking about going through auditions and seeing some that sort of reference the producing teams or certain names being attached because it is a low trust, high cost industry and environment. So even as an actor to go like, I didn't do this when I first started acting. But then after a bit, I would actually start Googling the production companies or YouTube channels and going wait a minute, I'm not going to exert or like
Maybe I don't need to audition for this because it's just like some random guy in the suburbs and looking at their work, I would think, no, why am I sweating for, why am I feeling like I just got rejected? I'm kind of happy I didn't have to show up for this thing. But on the flip side, yes, I get like actor's access showing or at least referencing.
you know, alluding to the teams. like given given like what you said, you know, you you'll do commercials, industrials, student works shorts, as well as, know, I think I saw you on Marvel. She had. like how how like what's you know, what's the spectrum of like what works best for you? What doesn't work for you, whether it's on set audition or maybe you start with the audition and then go to on set. Like what's your approach to like auditioning for whether it be an industrial or a TV show?
Well, you I look at the role and how the role fits in with the project and just go from there. I maybe I should have a way of changing it if it's an industrial versus a TV show. But to me, it's more the scene I've been the sides I've been given and what I see is the character and then their instructions for what they're looking for. So I try to go by the different pieces of knowledge that have been handed to me. But I
Ruth Kaufman (23:49.396)
it's harder not to get more excited when you know it's something like a Marvel show. However, a lot of big projects might come with a code name. So you have to do some scoping to see what it is. And then if you sort of do your Googling magic, you can find out more about what it is. And it is definitely hard not to be more excited for a Marvel audition than a student film.
Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, you'll do like your due diligence in general as part of your process of like, is this even a role I want to go out for? And then sometimes you'll see the periphery of certain production crews or teams that might indicate, oh, this might actually be an interesting, respectfully prestigious project. And then when it comes to say, you know, any given audition is going to have so much information, whether it's going to be a very light 10 % or maybe it feels like a 70%, 80 % kind of enough.
to create a world, like are you actively thinking about your point of view, your take on the character of the scene or like how do you inject a degree of like risk or mischief when it comes to say, going for a swing? Yes, yes.
Well, definitely, would say years ago, I would worry more, what do they want? I try to get what I think they want. now, except for some commercials where they're pretty specific on what they want, and I don't know that you can deviate as much or certain co-star roles where you, as you just mentioned earlier, you are just sort of a function versus a character, if you will.
Yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (25:20.174)
I don't really inject, I mean, I personally don't get a lot of waiters, but a waiter, if you're just saying, here's your tea, thank you, here's your check or something, how much of you can you inject, especially if it's not a comedy? If it says wacky waiter, then you would perceive that a little differently and you might even have some lines that facilitate that. So you do have to try to fit the, I was just listening to a casting director, Zoom workshop the other day, talking about the importance of matching the tone of a project. So I wouldn't and I,
sure most actors wouldn't, you wouldn't audition for a procedural the same way you might for a comedy.
Right. Yeah, I do think like when it comes to like the world's procedurals, my judgment can be sometimes a bit of a churn and burn, right? Like they need a functional person to just like lay out either exposition or like medical stuff. Like it's four lines of dialogue, but you need to say it in three seconds. Like that's probably a lot of the vibe for those shows. But I do still think in the world of like casting directors, maybe not the best opportunity for more functional roles, but.
outside of that, do like it. I imagine I would hope they do any sort of sharp point of view or even comedic or subversive or bit of irony that isn't just I think most people do six out of tens or seven out of tens where it's like, yes, you are needing something from me, mother. Like, like there's no point of view in that versus adding a bit more of an attitude, even though the information you have at the sides level doesn't indicate that. do think there's something interesting about actors who can read between the lines or go, you know what? This is kind of flat.
I'm going to have my own fun on it because I don't really know what this world exactly is.
Ruth Kaufman (26:56.694)
Right. And then I do tend to get some comedy auditions and it's challenging to know I'm just a bigger personality in general. And I know some theater actors might have this as well because in theater you're supposed to reach the little old lady in the back row. But it's hard to know for comedy how much of my true self to bring or how much to, again, not trying to guess what they want, but yet.
I it.
Ruth Kaufman (27:22.078)
it often says, well, it says grounded and real, but yet funny or something. How do you
Right.
that. And then your satisfaction. And yes, sometimes you can do two takes and that might be a way to get yourself more injected. But it is, it can be a challenge. And that's why I personally prefer in-person. when you go in the room, you often do get two takes and you can do the first take and then they could say, that was great, but can you bring it down two notches or 20 % or bring it up? And that way you at least feel that you
Right.
Ruth Kaufman (28:01.536)
It's not really trying to do what they want, but you know they want that. Right. I'm going to bring 80 % and they might want that. And I have also heard a lot of, I follow a lot of casting directors and attend a lot of online seminars and a lot of them do say it's easier to bring people back than to tell them to go bigger. So I don't want to be thought of as someone who's not a big person if that is what they're looking
Right. Yeah, I think it's like, the nice thing about the in-person is there is a degree of spontaneity and flexibility and they can in real time test how you take a note, if you can take a note, if they give a little bit more, can you break the threshold? So I think it's honestly, I think it's more common that most people are in a fear state and they're giving 70 % in any given audition. So they're like, all right, how about a little more? And then they just bring it up to like 82 % versus starting at like 192%. And they're like, how about, how about just like cut it in half?
And then seeing you drop down to like, you know, 98, like that's probably more improbable, but still a good note to take. I don't like that. Yeah. Grounded. think that's like, it's, it's such a lazy, in my opinion, lazy note for audition sides. I also think, yeah, what I imagine is like not because like theatrical is like,
It's a style. It's me, it's like an issue of style. And yes, grounded is also an issue is like a form of style, but it risks being boring. Like so I would like I would I just like don't like those kinds of notes like let let let the freak flag fly. You know, let people like really take their swings versus now you're in your head of like, don't think I'm too big. I would rather actors be too big in a self tape because it's unlikely that they're going to because you have technical skills. I think you have the technical skills to know what's theater acting versus screen acting.
So you have the technique to be huge, but not broad and not sort of general.
Ruth Kaufman (29:54.002)
Yes, but it is hard if you are just a broad person. Because they also say, be yourself. So how do you find a version of yourself that will help you get more auditions or at least have casting directors say, she might not have booked this.
Right. Right.
Ruth Kaufman (30:12.59)
she did a great job, I'm going to make sure to bring her back when I have the opportunity. I did intern at a casting director years ago and I was able to be a reader for some auditions. What really surprised me the most honestly was how many people came in and could not take the simplest direction. Self-tape doesn't show that at all. These were simple things, maybe complex things for certain films or other kinds of projects. That's why I do
Also, like even a Zoom callback or even a Zoom audition is more real. That's air quotes again. Real to me because you are at least talking to a person. They might say hello to you. You get to maybe build a fraction of a relationship where a self tape, you don't get to do that.
At least when it comes to like on camera work, it's like sometimes you're acting with a wall or a stand in. So it's like I do think it's a certain level of technique and expertise to be able to fully commit and bring it. So which is why I think about like, yeah, if I don't know what they want, I'm just going to be myself. I'm to have as much fun because I love seeing auditions where it's like, whoa, this person no fucking way for this role rather than like, don't know, like I because I've seen people like no fucking way, but.
A month later, a friend will email me and say, I'm looking for this. And I'll just send them like, yes, this person who wasn't, but they brought something like they brought an attitude or they were huge. Like they were very broad or very themselves or even like outside of themselves. They have a performance perspective or performance point of view that only they could create, even if it's not who they are as a person. like there's like a certain literalness that I also worry about. It's like be yourself versus like, you know, present or embody a character.
in like how you see the world versus not who you are.
Ruth Kaufman (31:57.462)
And that's why I take every audition so seriously and I'm so grateful because you never know down the line or this project, another project and just maintaining, we hope, she brought it again, she brought it again. And when there are way more people auditioning for each thing, just by percentages, you
If they're calling in, which I believe used to be the norm, not even 10 people, maybe four to six for in-person co-stars, you theoretically have a one in six or eight chance. But if they're calling in 40 to 60, maybe a couple people don't turn it in, maybe a couple people just don't do the work, right? But still, you might be one in 60 then. So that's a big or more. And I know how many submissions some of these casting directors had. The numbers were just astonishing.
even to get an audition is a win.
Yeah, yeah. The I mean, a short I did a couple of years ago, I got 1200 submissions for just like four roles is paying is a short and it's a short film.
Well, but that's why just being in a pool, great, especially because I am seeing, which is frustrating on the one hand, but yet welcoming on the other, there I go again, may not be the right word, but more things that I might even see through an agent are also publicly available on a casting site. So the pool could be even larger than just represented.
Mishu Hilmy (33:00.737)
Right.
Ruth Kaufman (33:20.13)
people. And so you never know what you're competing against in some of those cases. And sometimes you might direct submit yourself and bring in an agent later. You get close to it. So you just don't know the pool.
Right. Yeah, it's like speaking or speaking earlier. It really is. I do think like that volume, like a volume game numbers game. And I think the challenge with that is like the energy, the courage, the vulnerability to be like, I was actually excited about this audition or I wasn't excited. But then, you know, you get the trailing nose, the trailing maybes and maybe out of 100 or 200, you get a yes. And that's, think, just like the nature of the gig.
Or even a callback is another win, because you're showing that casting director, and if it came through your agent, you're showing that agent too, that at least you delivered. And then once it gets past that point, you can have no control, because you don't know hair colors, it could be anything. Age, she's too young, she's too old, she's too large, she's too tiny. There's anything it could be.
Right. And do you have like a sort of either a self-care regimen or letting go or releasing regimen where it's like, all right, I the audition. That's it. of of sight, out of mind. Like how have you evolved that?
I do try, but because you sort of have to be available for the callback dates, it's hard not to then when that date approaches or the day before when you should have been notified, it's hard not to have a little kind of a thing because if you forgot it entirely and put something super important on the callback or shoot date, it would just come to burn you down the road. But I mean, I was also in sales before and I also was trying to
Ruth Kaufman (34:59.606)
get my novels published. and then of course, many people are dating on and off in their lives. So there's been so many opportunities for reduction between acting. Also, I do some storytelling and often you have to submit to be accepted. So many ways to be rejected. If I got upset by everyone, I could never get up.
How do you stay consistent? Are there tools that you're doing that you want to be mindful of your schedule and calendar and at the same time? That's more of a scheduling thing versus a letting go thing.
I do try to forget it. I I submit to independently. I just forget it until I get a fanfare on my phone or something. I just move on to the next thing.
person.
Mishu Hilmy (35:44.162)
I mean, that makes sense, right? It's like, right.
you have to believe there will be more. And sometimes I do find often that things are faced in famine. For some reason, I'll get a bunch of things in a row and maybe a bunch of bookings in a row. And then it's like, so that to me is sometimes a little more challenging. As long as there's more opportunities on somewhat steady drip coming in, it's much easier for me anyway, to say, now I have this, now I have that.
But when there's dead silence or when I was out in January and some of February for my foot surgery and you see auditions and opportunities and even though I had booked out a couple things came in just in case I think and I was like, I can't walk yet. It's just heart wrenching.
I do think like, you know, opportunities are infinite, but it's still like that consistency is right. So it's like, yes, there's always potential for infinite opportunities. I think what makes it harder is, yes, three months straight, you're like working, you're busy, you're you're in it, you're on you're doing really creative things. And then six months go by, you're like, OK, one audition came up that I was maybe a good fit for. So I think that lack of consistency is probably a harder head game than say getting rejected consistently.
Or I will say as someone who had a corporate America day job for many years where you know at least you're getting consistent pay and get you know, Commission maybe or bonuses or whatever. It can be hard just not to know what's coming next. The holidays back when I had a real job quote unquote, I was getting holiday pay to go eat turkey or watch fireworks. But when you're self-employed and everyone's the salaried people are
Ruth Kaufman (37:22.41)
enjoying their turkey and a paycheck, it's just usually time I won't even be auditioning. The holiday period, which can sometimes extend into the first week of January, and then there's the summer back to school period. So you, at least it's for everyone then. It's not just mwah, but it can be hard because I miss the opportunities and also the practice. I do feel even though I've done so many auditions and have been on hundreds of sets,
Right. Yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (37:50.764)
I do think acting is in some ways a little bit of a muscle that if you don't keep doing things, it's harder to get better or stay comfortable.
Totally agreed. Yeah, I think it's I relate so much like directing or producing like the only way to direct is to direct and like acting the same. think also with acting, though, you can, you know, flex the muscle of out this week. I'm to try and just play around with like two 30 second monologues and then you're at least, you know, sharpening the saw. You might not be playing with others, but you can still at least self study that way. And I guess in the directing side, I could watch a shorter movie and break it down and see how much I use, you know.
And I could watch other films and things and go to seminars like I do and take classes. There's certainly many things one can do. You can update your website. You can your social media. You can make videos. There's a million things you could do, but I always want to like to feel that I'm moving forward. So at least if it's an audition, there is a hope of something. Whereas monologues, which is great too, you don't know when even you'll get to use that.
Yeah, you may never use it. Yeah, to me, it's like the practice, like the spirit isn't like, what value can I extract out of this versus like, I'm just playing in, you know, playing with actions or, you know, language. So like that, like the process in and of itself is the reward. But there's also like the time.
I guess the older I get, the more value I'm looking for my time. It's compensation and money form or the value of working with new people. I need to see for me what is the value of everything.
Mishu Hilmy (39:10.574)
Yeah, no, makes sense.
Mishu Hilmy (39:16.974)
Right
Mishu Hilmy (39:21.58)
Yeah, like what experience like do I want to get like I'll take a slightly lesser pay rate if I'm excited about the value of this crew, this experience, you know, this story. And then some moving away from auditions like you book a role. You do have a wide variety of experience. So like maybe from, you know, audition to industrial versus audition to, you know, short film versus audition to feature or TV show like what's what's been, you know, the highs and the lows of different experiences like that.
I would say the lows, there have been a couple projects that for some reason, even after I booked them, didn't come to fruition for whatever reason and then were not rescheduled. And that's a little frustrating because you have been booked, you have done the thing and yet you still don't get the finished product because a lot of actors, including myself, it's not the only reason I act obviously, but you like to have clips from things.
better things to show that you're still working. If you have a clip that's clearly from 30 years ago and that's your only clip, it's a little harder to utilize that than if you have something that's clearly more recent. So that's part of my enjoyment of doing things is getting a different or new clip to see if I want to use it in some way or even something to put on social media, whatever you want to do, whether it's real worthy or so having booked something and anticipating things. But also for some of those things, they still have to pay you.
So at least I'm getting the money, but I'm not getting the value of working with the team or the credit or the... So that would be, I guess, the downside. The upside is, of course, getting to set. And then they say, this is my favorite thing. Do whatever you want. Because it's interesting to me, the bigger the project, the less they talk to you.
Yeah, yeah,
Ruth Kaufman (41:09.342)
And so they only tell you if they want you to make a change. for example, when I did She Hulk, it was really exciting to me. I wasn't sure how much personality they wanted my character to have. And so I just went in and did it how I wanted to for the rehearsal, figuring that they can just say, like we've talked about, do this, do that, do the other thing. But mostly they were happy with it. And I also was grateful that they gave me a lot of reaction shots because sometimes when you're
co-star which is understandable they do focus on the leads and I was I was so thrilled with the amount of screen time they gave me so then maybe that also shows that I was doing what they wanted because you weren't they still have to keep shooting unless you're that bad and but I don't I don't know and I don't even know why I think about those things I'm just very grateful for what they did and that there were reaction shots and other things I wasn't expecting.
mean, it's more opportunities to play for what, you know, whatever the sort of the role is. It's like you showed the degree of sort of trust and proficiency where it's like, the producers, the directors, the cast can see like, yes, we can use this person's skill in the edit as well versus like, all right, if you're just doing like two shots, like I'm probably going to get cut. I'm going to get cut from this thing. But to have to show that your game, you have technical skills, have perspective that it gives.
Even the way I ended the scene, which wasn't in the script, it was a physical thing, they used that. And they certainly could cut it fairly at any time. So I was just very grateful. And I've been on some features where they might want one take more closer to the script and then they'll say, what you want, which is both exciting and yet scary because when the crew's staring at you, if you're improvising, they can't laugh like they can in an improv show.
Right, right.
Ruth Kaufman (42:53.934)
just sort of tell you, things are working. The audience is appreciating it. And so you can't tell if your editions are falling on deaf ears or if it's like, yes, yes, keep going. So that's really exciting, but yet scary at the same
Yeah, so I don't know if you found this but sometimes like going from written to improvisations like to for me like two different parts of the brain so it's like oh no, now I gotta generate something versus like embody something
I feel like sometimes you know how some cars are just more revved up? Like I have just a natural revved up mind that just keeps like, so I have many words. Words, whether they're again, air quotes funniest words or the best words or even words that they're willing to use.
Right
Ruth Kaufman (43:39.916)
you don't know until you see the finished product, but you just don't want to be, I have had a ton of improv training, which definitely helps an improv experience, but you just want to be bringing something useful and not wasting a tape.
I wonder also like with depending on the project or a bigger project at the, it's like the trust of delegation, like at the CD level, it's like we hired Ruth because what they brought to the audition is a point of view or perspective that we're excited about. And as long as Ruth brings that to the day of, like we have nothing, we have nothing to say. It's like, all right, do, do the thing you did more and we'll be more than happy rather than like not trusting you.
Exactly. There was actually a feature film I was in where they for the callback, which was in person in Chicago, they flew in the casting director from New York. The director and DP flew in from L.A. And so they had me do this audition from the side. And then they said, put that away and just do it, which is a little stressful then. So they already had pretested whether or not they were accepting of.
the level of improv I was bringing. And they actually told me later, the director said, we knew right away we wanted to give you the part, but we had to make sure you were good. So that was exciting. But you don't know in any case if you're that person they want to give the part to, for whatever reason, the person they thought they wanted just didn't deliver in the end.
given how out of control acting is, least at the level, what draws you toward the medium? What keeps you excited about it?
Ruth Kaufman (45:14.414)
love a lot of things. I love collaborating with other people and I love being able to entertain people. Ever since I was in my kindergarten Christmas thing and got a laugh, I knew this is what I wanted. I want to entertain people because there's a lot of great in the world, but there's also a lot of things that aren't so great. And if you're laughing or really focused on something, you're getting some kind of enjoyment and not really focusing on whatever may not be so great in your life. And I just feel entertainment.
is very important in all times to have opportunities to entertain an audience.
Yeah, like contributing to others alleviating the sort of the burden of being by, you know, providing story or catharsis or humor. That's yeah, that's lovely. And then like, so yeah, other kind of I'm curious on set things, you know, what sort of communication styles gel best with you? What sort of directorial styles that you're like, gosh, I hope I'm never or not in another type of show with this person or this type of, you know, communicator.
experienced really bad directors, but I do feel ones that take charge and know what they want. Some directors, for example, if you're just sort of chit chatting with another actor, they don't just come up and say, I need to talk. They'll just kind of stand there kind of, you know, it's like, this is your set. I'm only talking to this person because you don't want me at the moment, know, right. You're not expected to sit and wait patiently. You you can live your life. But like I expect taking command of the set.
and knowing what they want. Yeah, because I have been on some sets as well, even for some projects that, some projects where the director's time is so much taken up by other departments, that they don't always have as much time to focus on the acting.
Mishu Hilmy (46:55.662)
That's kind of also interesting too from variety of sets I've been on is like, there's a lot like, you'll spend like an hour and a half on a setup, on a lighting setup and really 18 minutes obsessing over, is there a nice fill on the fruit bowl in the background? Yeah, yeah. But that same amount of like dedication isn't necessarily given toward actors. And you know, it's ideal if like actors do have a rehearsal process, but most times you're showing up on set, you learn the lines at home or in the trailer and it's like, all right, you're.
getting to go. it's like, just a weird, I'd prefer a little bit more balance.
So I've been fortunate I guess to not have any I would never want to see again But it is just interesting and even on set there's things out of your control noise if you're outside all kinds of things
And then how do you remember sort of the goods you brought at the audition or the point of view you brought at the audition? And then it's like a month later, you're on set. like, how do you remember like what they hired you for?
Well, the one good thing about self tapes is you just rewind. It's a lot harder for in person or if you do have a zoom callback and you never get to see that. Or if you have said two takes and you don't even know, because they are supposed to be contrasting and you don't even know which one they chose. So I might try to say, do you remember which take you liked and try that or and that's why it is nice to have at least a little rehearsal so you can do what you think you do.
Mishu Hilmy (47:52.746)
Yes, yes, yes.
Ruth Kaufman (48:17.39)
Sometimes I'll admit there's been commercials I've done where it's after lunch and they'll say do what you were doing this morning I'm like that was three hours ago. Yeah, I don't remember what I You can you play back the thingy that you want and I'll then I can and you're doing multiple things So you don't even know which thing was it that I was doing three hours ago, but you I'll try to figure that out. Yeah
Yeah, I remember learning about like, you know, flow states. It's like kind of like creative state where you're just you lose track of time, right? You're doing something. Oh my gosh, I've been acting for three hours or I've been selling for four hours. But when you're in a flow state, you're it's virtually impossible to encode memories. Right. It's like whatever you're doing in that state, like if they're like, hey, yeah, do that thing like four takes ago or an aggro like I I don't remember what I seven seconds ago. Yeah.
And if there's a good script supervisor, maybe you did say something extra. And they could say, like that line. And then you can get that back. But your expression or even a gesture that you did, sometimes it can be hard enough even, especially if you're improvising to remember, my hand was over here. Or I scratched my nose at this point. So yeah, so I like those fun challenges, but it can be hard to remember.
moving from say onset to like post production and releasing what what's your experience how do feel about you know the post-production process or seeing the sort of final work and which performances that they might have ended up the selects they've taken.
I always am excited to see if you do get to see and especially if it's at a festival or an actual screening. It's always exciting to see the finished product and what they chose. I believe I'm more of a sponge. I've some actors, especially extras, when I used to do extra work, I don't want to wear this. I don't want to do that. It's like you're being paid.
Ruth Kaufman (50:04.62)
unless it violates some moral code or something. You're being paid to wear what they want, have your hair the way they want, do what they want within the limits of the contract and role you've been given. And if they decide they want my hair pulled back, but I like wearing it down, or if they want to straighten it, you know, I'm there to be a sponge. And I try to think of whatever they end up doing brings more to the character.
This is how they see the character. They see it as a straight haired person, I'm making this up, wearing a buttoned up collar versus somebody in a jeans jacket. So I like those opportunities, but it's always interesting to see what take they go with. But sometimes too, it's not you. They might've had a technical issue on a take that might've even been performance wise optimal. you never know a lot of the time.
why you chose that take unless there's a director's commentary. We wanted to use this one take where so-and-so was super funny, but the boom fell into the show. So I'm always grateful to see the finished product and to have it out
Yeah, that's great. That's Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, I remember I was watching I think she all like, oh, there's Ruth is a lovely. Yeah, yeah, I think I remember I was just adding something recently. It's like there's a really strong performance. But the way they move their hand, you could see their lapel mic and their brick in the back of their pants like, I can't use this medium. I can see it.
It's on TV.
Ruth Kaufman (51:20.696)
How exciting.
Ruth Kaufman (51:34.974)
I never know why they cut something or why they'll look at me versus the other person or people in the scene. When do you get a reaction shot? When do they get one? So I'm just grateful anytime. Any TOC I get, my camera, thumbs up.
Yes. What's your level of maybe intention or thoughtfulness when it comes to like the risks you want to take for roles or like risk risks as a career? Like how do you approach deliberately taking risks? I guess like, like for example, you know, if I'm doing an audition, I could do it, you know, this sort of safe way or this might be a bit cheeky. So like at the audition level, taking risks or.
What do you see as a risk?
Mishu Hilmy (52:16.43)
You know, the of choices, right? Like I have my own comfort zones. I like comedies. I like doing this, but I see a role that's, you know, villainous and it's a weird horror sci fi. And this person's abominable. So like creative risks, like at the audition level.
I might do two takes, especially if they've been super specific in what they want to see. And if they haven't, I might do what I think more fits the tone in the genre and then try to do something a little something different or bring something different. In part two, to show what I hope, it might look the same to them. I don't really know. It seems different to me. But you hope that they see she can bring this two different ways. And even maybe if neither one of them is how they see it.
Okay, yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (52:58.828)
they still feel we're gonna give her a director session or callback so we can see if she can do this thing. But if they say they only want one take, it depends on the role and how big it is.
Yeah, yeah. And then like, how do you?
It's like if you just said villainous, if they don't have that word, maybe it still is the villain, but you can't know that.
Right. Yeah, because it's I think like ultimately what I'm maybe trying to get to is like you have a unique perspective and when it comes to reading aside and reading between the lines, right, you can read the sides and go, wow, this person seems like a really messed up person. My value of it and like I don't think it's an actor's job to like judge the character. I think it's the job like the body and, you know, project or create a sort of point of view. So it's like I I'm sensing something that's unusual about this.
a safe bet would be to go flat, but I want to put a little I want to take a risk and go a little weird on it. So it's like navigating those internal conversations.
Ruth Kaufman (53:54.67)
you think it depends on my mood that day? How many lines the character actually has? If it's a multiple scenes, is it something I can even maintain? Multiple scenes, you know, if they send you multiple scenes and you see, this is where it sort of, let's say blows up or whatever, or there's more of a crux to it, you know, then you can see where you would need to go in the end. But sometimes, which has happened frequently, you might have multiple scenes and they just send you a scene and you don't even know where the character comes from or goes to.
Mmm, yeah.
Ruth Kaufman (54:24.128)
So you just have to see what you have in the moment and that's what everyone else is doing and bring the best yourself to fit what information you have.
Right. Because I think there's a degree of either creativity or even on the less generous side, manufacturing, because it's like I don't have the information of the moment before or where I'm going to or the moment after or like, where I'm going to end up. So it's like how to exert creativity to go, you know, given the text, this is what I'm going to make it. And I imagine you're probably already doing that versus someone who might not be as courageous would go, well, there's nothing there. So I'm going to start with nothing, find it in the middle and end with nothing, which I don't think is a good decision.
try to bring something, but again, you don't know if what you're bringing is what they envision or is too much.
Yeah, I would. Yeah, for me, it's like I would always not always, but I love too much. I it. And that's maybe me as a casting director and a director is like, give me too much so I can, you know, either go for it, say, heck, yeah, or heck, no. But my friends would like this.
So it's a balance and I don't know that I have a set decision making. And sometimes honestly, it even depends on compensation too and who the team is. If it's, you know, I just have to weigh the clump of fact information that I have and see how I feel at the time.
Mishu Hilmy (55:39.202)
Right. Yeah, because there's also trust involved too, because you know there's editorial. So it's like a director could be like, yes, actually, just do it one more time. But like, do it this way. And you realize, if I do it this way, I'm going to I'm going to this isn't what I want to be. And they choose the take. So yeah, how do you protect yourself for those potential risks of editorial? Great. And yeah, I the last question.
You control what comes out either. You plan to be, let's say, this kind of villain. But then when you're doing it in the moment, you get this kind of villain. And so then you mix that one, or do you say, okay, I'll send that in? There's no way for me to know, because I'm not like, let's say the audition was from you, you you don't get the opportunity to call up the person and be like, hey, are you thinking this kind of villain or that kind of villain?
Right, right.
Ruth Kaufman (56:26.572)
have a way to proceed, you know? And if they just say friendly, well, that's, know.
There's so many flavors of friendly
of the breakdown, which isn't always even written to my understanding by the director. Sometimes the casting people, which is great, but you can only go with whatever information you have.
Right. And that's where I think the creativity is. And like the point of view comes through. You can do an archetypal friendly or you can go after X number of years of being a human or living in Chicago. I'm going to try this, you know, this style of friendly. And that's where you get creative. And that's exciting. Yeah. And I think my last question is just like, how have you been defining success, especially sort of, I think you've been getting more into acting later in life. So like, how have you been defining success and how has that been evolved?
more things than with bigger, you you hate to keep saying bigger, but it is the thing in our society that it is, will probably get seen more or be more, I don't want to say impressive, but more of interest to more people if there's bigger people attached. Like I was in a film that was executive produced by the Duplass Brothers and that name is going to carry more weight than I'm making this up.
Ruth Kaufman (57:41.39)
Jimmy Brothers, that no one heard of. So the opportunity to audition for bigger projects and also have a mix of not bigger projects. So to me, it's steady work, but with the goal of getting more characters with arcs.
Okay, when I think of like bigger, to me, it's like the impulse of like challenge, like as people, we want challenges, we want to grow, we want to move, we want to like, see, can we accomplish something that's difficult? It's like the same motivation of like, you can climb a small mountain, but the more you climb mountains, you're like, I just I love the challenge, can my skill, my body, my mind take this challenge? So I don't think there's anything inherently like icky about wanting bigger, I just attribute it to the challenge of growth, then the difficulty is like,
Those things are out of my control versus, you know, me taking a swing and choosing to continue to take swings. That's in my control. Whether, you know, those mountains exist or I am allowed to climb them, you know, that's out of my hands.
But as we said, some of it can be a little bit of luck. If I hadn't gotten that Marvel audition, as I said, if you're not in it, you don't have a chance to win. So just by doing the best you can at every opportunity you're given, whether it's a freshman student film or a thesis film or a small independent or a major network TV show, just bring the best you can every time.
Yeah, yeah, that's lovely sentiment. It was a delight getting to the top.
Ruth Kaufman (59:02.414)
Thank you for having me.
Mishu Hilmy (59:09.314)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. All right, thanks for sticking around this far. Here's another one, the Micrometric Audit.
Yeah, so pick one creative project you might have released on social media, a short, a reel, a zine or whatever. Maybe you released it not on social media. Maybe you released it brick and mortar and put it in the hands of people you love and know or don't know. But either way, pick one project you've released and list three metrics beyond view count that made it worth doing. Things like new connections, skills gained, failures, successes, future opportunities.
Friends along the way. So list three things from something you put out there that aren't necessarily associated with the vanity metrics or extrinsic motivation and find things that maybe even are intrinsically motivated and growth mindset. So little prompt for you to do some reframing list three things that are beyond metrics, et cetera. All right. Thanks for sticking around this far and wishing you the best.
and whatever you make or don't make do or don't don't do. All right. Talk to you later.