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Lead The People is your guide to unlocking your true potential as an authentic leader. Hosted by Dr. Matt Poepsel—The Godfather of Talent Optimization—this podcast dives deep into the art and science of what it takes to lead at the next level. With insightful conversations and practical strategies, each episode equips executives, strategic HR pros, and aspiring leaders with the tools it takes to boost performance, inspire teams, and drive meaningful impact. Whether exploring the latest workplace trends or tackling real-world leadership challenges, Lead The People offers an enlightened approach to leadership. Embark on a rewarding journey to become the leader your people deserve—the leader you were meant to be.
Matt Poepsel (00:00):
One of them that stuck out to me was what you called wet but big idea because you're sitting in the snow and you came up with this idea and it was all about the Hike To Become Challenge.
Jessica DeAngelo (00:10):
I was supposed to be playing with my children on a Saturday morning and instead I was busy working. I was trying to do all the things at once and I thought, oh my God, what are my toddlers doing? And I looked up and my daughter was just standing right in front of me, Matt. Sheer look of disappointment on her face. She was three at the time. Mom, put down your phone. I'm losing the plot on life. And so several days later, that was December of 2023, I did what I've always done when I lose the plot on life, which is take myself for a hike. How did I get here? What went wrong? I'm failing to be a good mom and a good wife and I'm disconnected and I'm uninspired in my work. And I was tired, so I got to the top of that mountain, Matt, and I forgot I was not wearing waterproof pants in the snow.
(00:51):
Just as my butt is getting uncomfortably wet, I flipped the question and I thought, instead of wondering what went wrong, what if I thought when wasn't this a problem in my life? When was I the happiest? When was I the most fulfilled? It's always been when you were hiking regularly.
Matt Poepsel (01:19):
My very special guest is the chief hiking officer and founder of Hike to Become, where she guides people to unlock their boldest ideas outside. She is a TEDx speaker who has worked with leaders from Fortune 500 companies like Amazon, Nike, and Uber. Her Hike to Become program offers a science-backed, outdoor approach to solving business challenges and sparking innovative ideas. And she's the author of my new favorite book, The Wild Advantage: Why Your Brain on Nature is Your Boldest Business Move. She is Jessica DeAngelo. Welcome to the show, Jessica.
Jessica DeAngelo (01:47):
Matt, thank you so much for having me.
Matt Poepsel (01:49):
I'm so glad to see you. I think we were introduced if my memory serves, which it rarely does these days anymore. Geez. Andrew Hartman from TimeBoss.
Jessica DeAngelo (01:57):
That sounds about right. He's one of my favorite people, but don't tell him that.
Matt Poepsel (02:01):
We won't. It'll be our little secret. I did weigh in on his LinkedIn post the other day and I told him how much I'm still using TimeBoss. It's really helping me with my relationship with time. For sure. Happy to hear that, but I'm glad that he paid it forward and introduced me to you and I got a copy of your book and I can't wait to chat with you all about it today.
Jessica DeAngelo (02:18):
Yeah, I'm super stoked. Well,
Matt Poepsel (02:19):
I'll start with this. You start off and you talk about this paradox that a lot of times we're leveled with these conveniences. We can get one click ordering here. You talk about in the Starbucks app, we'd rather tap in our order privately than go talk to the barista. And you say that a lot of that convenience has replaced connection. I'm seeing this too 100%, but I'm just getting your take on that. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you're seeing and sort of what it's costing us?
Jessica DeAngelo (02:44):
I've really been paying attention, especially lately. The more I read about this phenomenon or experience it myself, you've read the book, so you're acutely aware that my journey really started with a loss of connection with my very young children. And it was a massive wake up call for me where I was way too distracted on my cell phone in the nature of getting work done versus playing with them on a Saturday morning, which is really the most important thing in the world. And so that was a big wake up call for me, Matt. And that has kind of led me down this path of doing the work that I do. But what's interesting, yes, we have this extreme loss of connection right now. It's in the nature of convenience, mentioning the Starbucks example I gave in my book. I was in Starbucks. I walked into the store the other day to get my husband and I a latte.
(03:30):
Because I do this work now, I try to be a little bit more mindful about how I present as well. So I order my coffee with a real human being who is lovely. And I walked over to wait for when the coffee would come out and I look around me and I look around the coffee shop and everyone who is alone, can you guess what they're doing?
Matt Poepsel (03:49):
Tapping away.
Jessica DeAngelo (03:50):
They're on their phone. And so I've tried to just really just pay attention almost as a casual observer, but also from like a researcher's perspective of interesting. We are so uncomfortable just being present in the moment and it's getting worse, as we all know. And what I like to remind anyone I talk to about this phenomenon, first and foremost, I think there's a lot of guilt associated with it, which doesn't help. And I like to remind everyone, first off, it's not your fault. The engineers who have developed this technology that we all love so much have really hijacked our evolutionary wiring to make it so addictive. So we need to take it back into our own hands, if that makes sense, Matt, and really take control of the situation. But first, we need to get over ourselves and the guilt we feel around it, otherwise we won't take action.
(04:39):
I don't know. That's really what I'm observing and I'm seeing it more and more, but then I also conversely see the opposite as well. So I do see people that are mindfully putting their phone away and engaging in a powerful way. So it's both. And I don't think technology is really the problem. I think we just have forgotten who the tool is and we act like it.
Matt Poepsel (04:58):
Yeah, 100%. And I think you're exactly right. I think all these modern conveniences, we don't want to give them back, but we want to make sure that we understand in our eyes wide open about what they're doing to us. A lot of times I call it the drift. I see that we're drifting apart and it's happening because these things are a byproduct of how we live our modern, busy lives. But I love exactly what you're saying, which is that we can make more thoughtful choices. We can be aware of it. We can hold things in moderation. It's always a good idea. And I think that being willing to order coffee from a barista, have a real conversation. I do the same thing. I had a conversation with one, I said, "You're greeting people who are coming to pick up their mobile orders. How often do they greet you back?" And she said, "Maybe half the time." I thought, oh, that breaks my heart just a
Jessica DeAngelo (05:36):
Little bit. It's very sad.
Matt Poepsel (05:37):
Yeah, it is.
(05:38):
It is. People are just so absorbed and I get it. We've all been there. We've all been busy and run around, but it doesn't take much to make that connection. But I'll connect it a little bit more to the work you're doing today because along your career arc, I know you were doing some, I wouldn't call it interior design work, but it kind of was. You were really studying and talking and consulting on office design. And you noticed this trend where we take these interior spaces that we construct for ourselves and we're like, "I got an idea. Let's make them more natural. Let's put in some fake plants over here, maybe get some sunlight bouncing around over there." And it led you to this view that, hey, at the end of the day, it's still just a box. You're still staring at a screen. And when we think about the workplaces, even though we're trying to make them natural, what is it that we're missing by trying to artificially do that?
Jessica DeAngelo (06:22):
This was an interesting phenomenon as I reflected back. And you're absolutely right. Because the clients I worked with in my corporate career, Matt, I got a front row seat to some of the most advanced, beautiful office places in the world. And I'm talking all over the world, massive budgets and they were always going after biomimicry or trying to make the office space feel more natural. And I'm deeply appreciative of the practice. I think it's a beautiful practice. I do believe it helps. However, there's this interesting just sort of quiet layer that no one's saying this part out loud that we're still working in a workday that was fashioned around the industrial era. And we're not there really. A majority of people are not working in that fashion anymore, but we still keep ourselves beholden to an eight hour workday or 10 for most of us.
(07:09):
We're behind a screen, we're in an office and we have this societal cues of like, well, obviously you're not working if you're not in an office, you're not behind a computer screen, or let's say you are out on a walk. If you don't have your cell phone, you're not working, you're not being productive. And so I think I just kind of call out in my book this premise of these beautiful office spaces are amazing, but have we ever taken a step back and just thought maybe human beings don't belong inside so much? Am I crazy? I don't think so.
Matt Poepsel (07:40):
I don't think so either. I think we've earned this level of portability with our wirelessness and our satellites and our mobile devices and our phones are super powerful. We can stay connected, do business anywhere. And then what happens? We don't
Jessica DeAngelo (07:52):
Necessarily
Matt Poepsel (07:53):
Do those things.
Jessica DeAngelo (07:53):
Right. So what I've realized, and this is sort of everything I talk about, Matt, is deeply personal and I've experienced it. I am not on any soapbox saying I know best. I'm actually the opposite. I'm saying, "Listen, I'm living through it. I've lived through it. Here's what I've overcome." And when I left corporate America and I would say the pressures that I felt maybe to constantly be productive and sit behind a computer screen and have Zoom calls with colleagues and clients all over the world 16 hours a day, what shocked me the most, Matt, was when I went out on my own in consulting, I cut and pasted that societal thing that we think we have to do in my own work. And very quickly I got burnt out and uninspired and lost my way. And it really led me down this path of wondering, wait, maybe the way we're working is all wrong.
(08:42):
And when I started to challenge myself to hike daily after my big epiphany, work changed for me. I started coming up with my most creative ideas. I would get back to the office, I'm sure you probably do this, but do you ever sit behind your desk and you have a to-do list of 45 things, you got post-it notes all over the place, you have back-to-back Zoom meetings and you have lost the plot on what's ... Does that ever
Matt Poepsel (09:05):
Happen to you? Jess, it's worse than that. I've got sticky notes, plus my written to-do list, plus my to-do list, plus probably five other to-do lists that are all in my brain. And I carry it all in my head anyway. I probably don't even need all those things because it's all up here.
Jessica DeAngelo (09:18):
Right. So by the way, whiteboard, I tell my assistant, don't let me forget this thing.
Matt Poepsel (09:22):
Physical
Jessica DeAngelo (09:22):
And
Matt Poepsel (09:22):
Virtual, sure. Why not?
Jessica DeAngelo (09:24):
But when I hit that wall now, I know what I need to do. I need to take myself for a walk alone without technology, be out there for at least 30 to 40 minutes and something happens. Something shifts. I get back to the office and I go, "Most of this, I have no business doing. I need to do three things and I need to do them well, and then I'm done." And it's the focus, it's night and day, but we need that time to gain perspective again. And I would say, I'm on this sort of big mission right now to change the way we work, to change our relationship with nature and ultimately our relationship with ourselves. And my hope is that I can do that by inspiring more people to just step outside during their workday and sort of practice this challenge and be okay being unplugged and alone with their thoughts.
Matt Poepsel (10:13):
I'll come back to this in just a second because I think your method is so much more achievable than what I'll share here. Sure. But there was a time when I was feeling particularly stressed out and I said, "You know what? I need to get back to the outdoors." And so for me, what this meant was I needed to take time off work, probably a couple, it was like three, four days. I went up into the White Mountains, which is at least four or five hours for me, and it was wonderful. And I remember being on the side of a mountain, I was with a guide and I was taking some, refreshing my rock climbing skills, et cetera. And I remember hanging on the side of the mountain and I was trying not to fall. And I thought, you know what I'm not thinking about right now?
(10:46):
Email, Slack. Work. And I had this little epiphany moment of myself of a sort where it was like, you know what,
(10:55):
Perspective that you get up here, when you're away from all the stuff, you kind of reconnect with what's real. The problem was that eventually that PTO ended, I went back to work like I wasn't in the mountains anymore and it was lovely, but it had a pretty short shelf life, to be honest. And I think that what I really, I want to talk to you about your epiphany as well. And I'll do it by saying this. When I was reading the book, you have the most fun section headings in your book that I've ever seen, not even just the chapters. The chapters help you really follow along, but the section headings are just absolutely smashing. And one of them that stuck out to me was what you called wet but big idea because you're sitting in the snow and you came up with this idea and it was all about the Hike to Become challenge.
(11:39):
I want to contrast the experience I had going six hours away to be in the mountains for a brief period of time, how it wore off, to what you've come to encourage people to do, which is the Hike to Become challenge. Can you tell us what the rules of the challenge are, how does it work?
Jessica DeAngelo (11:52):
Sure. If I may, I'm going to take you back to that wet but big idea moment. How could you not? You and I have context so that your audience has context. They're probably like, "What is going on?" So back to that brief moment with my children, I was supposed to be playing with my children on a Saturday morning and instead I was busy working as a mom, entrepreneur. I was trying to do all the things at once. And it was this moment I had where the room got very quiet and I thought, "Oh my God, what are my toddlers doing?" And I looked up and my daughter was just standing right in front of me, Matt, and like sheer look of disappointment on her face. And she was like, she was three at the time, "Mom, put down your phone." That just sat with me, Matt.
(12:31):
I'm working too hard. I'm not being present with my kids. I'm losing the plot on life. And so several days later, that was December of 2023, I did what I've always done when I lose the plot on life, which is take myself for a hike. It sounds like you do the same thing and climbed to the top of a mountain. It was freezing cold. It was like 19 degrees out. My car was the only one in the parking lot. And I started thinking, how did I get here? What went wrong? I'm failing. I'm failing to be a good mom and a good wife and I'm disconnected and I'm uninspired in my work. I was out of shape and I was tired. So I got to the top of that mountain, Matt, and I was like, "I'm going to sit down and watch the sun come up and rest." And I forgot I was not wearing waterproof pants in the snow, so don't do that.
(13:16):
But just as my butt is getting uncomfortably wet, I flipped the question and I thought, instead of wondering what went wrong, what if I thought when wasn't this a problem in my life? When was I the happiest? When was I the most fulfilled? And just as the sun is coming over those mountains and my butt is getting wetter, it's like this epiphany of just it's always been when you were hiking regularly. And I was like, "Okay, all right. Universe, I'm listening, I'm listening." And much to your White Mountains example, Matt, my first thought was, "I need a backpacking trip. I need an African safari. I don't know. I need to go away for a period of time and find myself in the woods." And I very quickly came to the realization, I can't. I am a mom to two toddlers. I'm building a business. My clients depend on me.
(14:08):
My husband would murder me if I left him alone with the kids for three months. I can't do that. Just like you experience PTOs. And so I came up with another idea, which was what if I could just do something every day? What if I could hike for 31 days straight? Because at the time it was late December and I thought, well, January has 31 days. What if I just hiked for 31 days straight in the month of January? Could that replicate what I needed to do? And so that's where I sort of came up loosely with the idea of this challenge. So when I was replaying the video in my head of past times in my life where I'd lost the plot and just started hiking regularly, I thought, well, what was consistent then? It wasn't necessarily just a hike. And I thought, well, I've always been in nature.
(14:52):
Maybe it was a proper hike, maybe it was in a state park, maybe it was just getting outside. Okay. So I was always in nature. Check. And then I thought always in movement, I didn't like go out in a park and sit. I was always either walking, hiking or running. And then the last part is interesting. I'll probably date myself here, Matt, but I'm of an age that I acutely remember time before cell phones. And so the very first time I experienced this, I think I had a BlackBerry. I really wanted to leave that BlackBerry in the car and I did when I practiced this the first time around and then I did again. And so I was like, I didn't have technology. And this is before Fitbits and smartwatches and all that junk. And so I was like, okay. So I always kept technology off.
(15:33):
And then I thought to myself, and it was typically for about 30, 45 minutes. And so very quickly hiking down the side of the mountain that morning, those are the rules I came up with for myself to practice in January.
Matt Poepsel (15:45):
So then you couch them now under the HIKE acronym, right?
Jessica DeAngelo (15:49):
Yes. So it
Matt Poepsel (15:50):
Makes it super easy to remember.
Jessica DeAngelo (15:51):
Right. So H stands for hike or walk. I for in nature, K for keep technology off and I want to just like disclaimer, cell phones, earbuds, AI recording devices and smartwatches of any kind off. This is really important and the science shows it. And then E for every day, you're going to practice this every day for at least 30 to 40 minutes for 31 days and anyone can sign up for this challenge, Matt.
Matt Poepsel (16:19):
Yeah. So we're going to have at the end of the episode, have a place where you can go to sign up for just challenge, the Hike to Become challenge. And I love that it's really concise and those four things work really well together. And I know that sometimes ... I have a dog, he's about two years old now. He's a chocolate lab. He's adorable. And he gets me out of the house to take walks sort of outside, which is great because I think left to my own devices, I might just sit there and just be absorbed the whole time. But unfortunately, sometimes I will have the device and be doing something. And I think that was the one for me that's like, oh, okay, I'm definitely not up for this challenge. But I do really enjoy this notion that a local green space, a local state park, we don't have to do the big trip.
(17:01):
It's so liberating to think, you know what, most places actually have something natural and it can feel pretty remote even if you're five minutes off the road, if you allow it to. So I think it felt much more achievable to me and the fact that it's 30 minutes and you're like, "Okay, I can drive 10 minutes, 30 minutes, get back. It's less than an hour and it's totally doable." Yeah.
Jessica DeAngelo (17:24):
And I think one of the questions I often get asked by audiences, "Jess, what if I don't have 30 minutes in my day?" And this is a tough love moment. We all have 30 minutes in our day. It's what you're willing to sacrifice for it. It's either the Netflix show, the doomsday scrolling. I joke talking with a neighbor you don't even like, whatever it is, everyone has 30 minutes in your day. And what I've experienced, what my clients have experienced is that if you take this precious 30 minutes, you will gain up to two hours back in your life because you're going to be way more present with your family. You're going to be a lot more focused and creative in your work. It just happens if I might. So I have a company that I just spoke at their national sales meeting, Matt, and the entire company signed up for the Hike to Become challenge in the month of March.
(18:14):
I'm so stoked, 200 people. And I received a phone call, I think it was yesterday from one of the hike participants and he shared a story with me that he went for a walk. He's actually traveling here in Boise in my hometown. He went for a walk by the Greenbelt and sat at a park bench after his walk and just stared at the river and he saw a bald eagle kind of dive down into the river. And he had this moment that he thought, wow, if I had my cell phone on me, I'd be worried about taking a picture right now and instead I just get to sit here and enjoy this majestic moment with nature.
Matt Poepsel (18:48):
That's so cool.
Jessica DeAngelo (18:49):
That's what this challenge is all about, just showing up in real life again. We don't have to document it.
Matt Poepsel (18:54):
Yeah. And I think that by having 200 people who heard you talk, they get the chance to actually follow through on it and then they get to experience it. And it's one of those things where you're like, wow, it absolutely ... You mentioned about not having the time too. I think a lot of us get junk sleep because we're just constantly minds racing. We might have done some of that self-medication in the form of like scrolling through our algorithm while the TV's on or something. You hit the bed and then you're kind of like, now you're thinking about work again or whatever. And I think that when you do get some of that good exercise, some of that fresh air, you're getting the nature, you're getting the devices off. What you can reclaim in terms of actual quality sleep, you'll find that 30 minutes back pretty quickly in my experience.
(19:35):
It's always about priorities, as you said. And I think that with a little bit of deliberate and intentional scheduling, we can make time for the things that are the most important for our life. And especially if we're willing to maybe get up a little bit earlier, maybe put off something else, whatever it might be.
Jessica DeAngelo (19:50):
And it's funny you mentioned sleep. I think one of the first markers that I noticed in myself when I practice it intentionally this time, I would say like a week and a half in, I'm a notorious bad sleeper since I became a mom. I'm a light sleeper. I hear a pin drop and I'm like, "What is that?" And when I first practiced this challenge, it was like a week and a half in. I was like, "Wow, I'm sleeping like a rock. This is great." And to your point, I was waking up refreshed versus tired.
Matt Poepsel (20:17):
And I don't think it has to be a strenuous hike because that's not why you're sleeping. It's just everything just becomes a little bit more ... It's the perspective. It's the perspective taking and everything. And you have a section in your book too that's called Your Brain on Nature. You talk about that in the subtitle of your book as well. Maybe just give us a little bit of what happens to our brains when we reset, when we put the technology away. I've read a bunch of research, but if you can just give us the summary about like when we put the tech down, we get outside in nature for the 30 minute intervals that you're telling us about, what actually happens in our brains?
Jessica DeAngelo (20:48):
So I started to notice this phenomenon before I researched it, Matt, where it was ... I would typically find between that 30 to 40 minute mark, if I was out on the trail, ideas would come to me or solutions of maybe something I had been wrestling with for a while and I was like, "Huh, I never thought of that angle before or maybe this could work." And one of those brilliant ideas was why do I not take my clients hiking? Very, I would say late in the challenge, that first challenge. And so when I started taking my clients hiking, the same phenomenon would happen. Whatever challenge they would hire me for from a business strategy perspective, we would get out on the trail for two hours and it was typically around that like mile and a half marker where their brains would start to come to a conclusion or I would hear things on the trail where it was like, "Huh, didn't see that coming." I'm like, "Yeah, I know.
(21:39):
" So to answer your question, what happens to our brains? I want to give credit where credit's due. I think one of my favorite interviews in the book is Dr. David Strayer, and he is the head of neuroscience at the University of Utah. So grateful for him and his team, his time. He was able to explain to me that we have four attentional networks and I cover them all in the book, but because of our modern day life, we kind of get stuck in the fight or flight mode or the quick grab of like we hear the ping of the phone and so our attentional network goes to that. But one of the most important is our default mode and the default mode is where creative thought lives or our most brilliant ideas. We never really get into that space. Some people joke they come up with their best ideas in the shower.
(22:26):
Well, hopefully what's not in the shower, Matt.
Matt Poepsel (22:29):
Hopefully not your phone.
Jessica DeAngelo (22:30):
Hopefully, like a cell phone or a smartwatch or whatever. But what I realized is that that was not by accident. I was experiencing it myself. I was seeing it with my clients is that by one of the methods I do with everyone is I take their cell phone. They're not allowed to have any tech on the trail with me. By removing that technology, we're removing the part that the dings and I should take a picture of this and the constant distractions of being in a different attentional space changes, allowing you to actually get into that default mode of thinking. And the scientific studies show that after about that 30 to 40 minute mark, your cognitive function drastically improves. That's your ability to think, make decisions and come up with creative ideas and not even like pie in the sky crazy ideas, but novel ideas that actually have merit.
Matt Poepsel (23:21):
I think it's so incredible that you take entire teams out to do basically the work and the work just takes on a different character when you're on the trail. And it's something that I found just absolutely incredible to think that when you get the group, and if you're brainstorming in the same office that you work in every day, it's just so distracting and there's no novelty to that, but I could see that being entirely different. So you provide this perfect combination of the backdrop of nature and the setting, but you're also a skilled facilitator. So it's not like you're just saying, "Let's take a walk and hope for the best." You're like, "No, no, there are techniques that we're using out here too." So I find it to be a really potent combination, but I wonder if you might tell me too, there was a time I think when you were giving a talk and then just actually taking people who are in the room and say, "Let's just go outside right now," and people
(24:10):
What was that all about?
Jessica DeAngelo (24:11):
Oh, that was fun. So this was the very first time I took a group on a hike, I would say officially. So late in my own first Hike 31 challenge, so that was January 2024. I had my first keynote coming up February 3rd. And so it was like two and a half, three weeks into the challenge, I thought to myself, "I've been in keynotes before and they can be miserable. You've been trapped in a conference room all day, you've been in breakout sessions, now you got to listen to a motivational speaker, but you're still trapped in a conference room." And I thought this was a smaller group, it was a smaller company. And I thought, you know what, what if, and the company retreat happened to be at a state park already. I was like, I called the CEO who hired me. I said, his name's John.
(24:50):
John, I have a crazy idea. Would you be okay if I delivered half my keynote, took the group on a hike and then brought them back? And he's an avid hiker himself. And he was like, "Sure, Jess, I love it." He has always believed in my work and has been such a champion. And so I did that and I watched ... So it was a group of, I'd say 45, 50 people, I watched their demeanor completely shift. I mean, you and I have both been in corporate environments for a very long time, Matt. You've been in these breakout sessions and keynotes where you're just like, "Oh my God, I can't. I'm not absorbing anything. I just can't wait to get out of here. I haven't moved my body. I'm not eating food I would normally eat." And so for the first half of the keynote, I talked about technology and addiction and the way we work and what's broken about it.
(25:35):
And then I started sharing with them the benefits of being in nature via PowerPoint slide. And I was like, 10 minutes or more in nature drastically reduces stress and anxiety. And I could see it was the after lunch hour. I could see I was losing the group. And I said, "But you know what's better than a picture, the real thing. We're going on a hike." The CEO and I kind of got together and we were like, "Okay, we're going to surprise them. We're going to tell them to wear walking shoes, but we're not going to tell them why." And so we took the whole group out on a 45 minute hike. And I have to tell you, when the group got back to the room, I had a different set of individuals. People were happy, they were laughing, they were engaged. It was like everyone had a breath of fresh air, literally and figuratively.
(26:18):
From that day forward, I have not done a work engagement where I didn't hike with my clients.
Matt Poepsel (26:23):
It's incredible. And I think that sometimes you have these corporate outings and it's this one time thing and you go do like a ropes course or something or a challenge course, et cetera. And they're very memorable experiences. But again, I think what you're describing is so much more achievable, repeatable. It can become a habit. I think if you're a manager and you've got a small team and you're fortunate enough to have a trail nearby, why do we have to have our meeting with our laptops? If everybody's there, if you're not remote, of course, or hybrid, but let's have a walk and talk kind of meeting and just see what happens. If everybody's up for it, if that's safe and acceptable to do, let's do that. It changes the connection, it changes the presence, it just changes things.
Jessica DeAngelo (27:02):
For sure. And I would say from a business perspective, I know a lot of your listeners are executive level leaders themselves. From a business perspective, when I take companies and organizations out on the trail, a lot of times we're working on a business challenge. It's like business consulting on the hiking trail and anybody, to your point, if you have a meeting, take it outside instead. But the big mistake people make is they're always taking technology along. I would argue you don't need it. Actually, it's going to be more detrimental than not. But the things I've unlocked with the clients on the trail, I mean, we've shifted vision statements. We figured out a way to drive revenue. We have completely shifted a marketing campaign. The things that happen on the trail, I don't believe whatever happened in a conference room or in a whiteboarding session because people behave differently.
(27:50):
People are no longer posturing or trying to agree. They're in nature. I've had high level executives play in a stream like they were like an eight year old kid again. People are having fun. Like that's what it should be. Work should be fun again. And so I like to bring an element of that to the work, but getting out in nature and doing this method for a period of time and yes, you can unlock brilliant ideas. And I think I give a lot of examples in the book, Steve Jobs, he did this. Albert Einstein, he did this. This is not new. I'm not proposing anything crazy new or novel. I think my position is we have just gotten so far down the rabbit hole of technology and the way we work that we've forgotten. And I'm just trying to remind people again.
Matt Poepsel (28:32):
I think you're 100% right. And I feel like the things that we say we want, which is like innovation and we want out of the box thinking, we want to absorb change, we want cohesiveness, we want employee engagement. Well, let's put our money where our mouth is. Let's actually go out as a group together in nature because you'll accelerate those things. And I think when you put the tech aside, at least temporarily, then don't be surprised when those things can actually get unlocked. And it's fast and free to do it. So it's like, wow, okay, hold on. That's a lot. But I want to brag on your book a little bit and tell my listeners, there's more in the book that we haven't even had a chance to get to that just has this section called The Mountain in Your Mind and it's all about sort of overcoming and self-development and sort of why it's so hard for us these days to be quiet with our thoughts.
(29:17):
She's got views on that. And then another one is finding your wild advantage. And this to me is about leadership, authenticity and power and all these amazing things. So we're going to have a way for you to take the challenge. I hope you sign up for Jess's challenge because I think it's a really great thing to be able to do, but there's so much in here for business leaders, for leaders at every level I like to say. I think you've written a really marvelous book and one that really connects us to something that we've lost, to be honest with you. Well, thank
Jessica DeAngelo (29:44):
You, Matt. And as a fellow author, I think nothing means more to me because I know you know firsthand how hard it is to write and publish a book and kind of pour your heart and soul into something. So when you hear that kind of feedback from people who have read it, I really appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. I'm very proud of the book. And to your point about the fun, punchy headlines, I made myself a promise that I was going to write the book I would want to read. I wasn't going to worry about how smart I looked or anything like that. I wanted to feel like you were sitting at a campfire with me having a beer. Did I do that?
Matt Poepsel (30:19):
You absolutely did that. It's very, very approachable and like I said, actionable and grounded and it's got a really strong framework to it. It's got all my favorite things all in one. So I'm delighted that we were introduced and I'm delighted that I had a chance to read it.
Jessica DeAngelo (30:32):
Same. Well, thank you, Matt.
Matt Poepsel (30:34):
I also like to run an authentic show when I'm doing the podcast, and you're probably going to wish I hadn't, but what it involves at the end is us playing a trivia game.
Jessica DeAngelo (30:41):
You did warn me.
Matt Poepsel (30:43):
Yes, I did warn you. I've got this segment that I call, are we smarter than AI? And I don't know. Increasingly, that's going to be challenging. But you mentioned the situation that you had where you realized with your daughter that you weren't fully present with her. And you had said at the time in the book that you were in her imaginary restaurant and she only had one item in the restaurant, which was a little unusual. It was eggplant. So I thought let's get a stumping question about eggplant.
Jessica DeAngelo (31:08):
Let's do it.
Matt Poepsel (31:09):
The most random thing. So let's see what we know here it is. Botanically speaking, an eggplant is actually classified as which of the following is it? A, a vegetable, B, a berry or C, a tuber.
Jessica DeAngelo (31:19):
Well, who's answering first? You or me.
Matt Poepsel (31:22):
We can do it together. If you know it, you should just tell us.
Jessica DeAngelo (31:26):
I was thinking of fruit, which is not one of the options actually.
Matt Poepsel (31:29):
Okay. That's not a good sign, but we still got a chance here. So audience, if you're playing along at home again, botanically speaking, is an eggplant a vegetable, a berry, or a tuber? You think it could be a tuber?
Jessica DeAngelo (31:41):
I mean, it's probably a vegetable. I would just- It's
Matt Poepsel (31:43):
Probably a vegetable. Let's go with vegetable. We're doing it straight up. That's what we're going with. Again, audience, if you're playing along at home, lock in your answer, is it an eggplant? Is it A vegetable, B berry, or C tuber? We went with A. The answer is actually B berry.
Jessica DeAngelo (31:54):
I was right at berries of fruit, Matt. It's a fleshy
Matt Poepsel (31:56):
Fruit produced from a single ... Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, there you go. Wait till
Jessica DeAngelo (32:00):
I tell my daughter. Her little six-year-old mind now is going to be blown. It's
Matt Poepsel (32:04):
Going to be blown. This is why we have to get out in nature. We have to discover new things. But Jess, I have a much, much more commonsensical question than that nonsensical one, which is where can my listeners go to learn more about you and about your wonderful book?
Jessica DeAngelo (32:16):
Awesome. So the book, The Wild Advantage: Why Your Brain on Nature is Your Boldest Business Move can be found on Amazon. Listeners, please find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Matt, I think that's where we had initially connected. And should we give them the prompt to the challenge? Let's
Matt Poepsel (32:31):
Absolutely do it and listeners listen up because I'm going to have it for you in the show notes as well.
Jessica DeAngelo (32:36):
Okay. So if anyone wants to take this 31-day challenge on their own, I do think reading the book helps explain the science and keeps you a little motivated, but anyone can do the challenge. You just text to number 3377 and you text the word hike, H-I-K-E.
Matt Poepsel (32:55):
Easy peasy. Look at that. So I'll have those instructions for you in the show notes as well, listeners. So if you're driving or something you want to just click over, just know that you're able to get that information. I'll also include Jess's LinkedIn as well. So if you want to connect with her that way, you can do it. I just absolutely am so thrilled that we had the chance to have the conversation. I look forward to just continuing to follow you and just really continue to learn from you. So thanks, Jess. Thanks for being here.
Jessica DeAngelo (33:18):
It has been my honor, Matt. Thank you so much for the connection and having me on your show.
Matt Poepsel (33:22):
And thanks to you as well, my listeners for investing in yourself, listening to the great things that Jess had to say for us today. If you've got 30 extra seconds, we'd love a five-star rating on Spotify or wherever it is that you listen, helps me find other leaders like Jess to come on and teach us all the great things that they're up to. So that's it for today's show. Until next time, don't just manage the business when you can Lead The People.