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The Thin Veil explores what happens when inherited narratives about history, identity, power, and belonging begin to break down—and what it means to move toward greater moral clarity and alignment in their wake.
Centered around Palestine and anti-Zionism, and rooted in musician/activist Ezra Lipp’s own process of political unlearning later in life, the show features conversations with artists, organizers, and others navigating questions of imperialism, colonization, liberation, and the systems shaping our world.
FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
The Thin Veil with Ezra Lipp
Guest: Matthew Solomon
[00:00:00]
Ezra Lipp:
When I started traveling around the country doing screenings of that film, I started to find
all these Jewish organizations some of them even saying, "We center Black liberation as part
of our Jewish social justice movement."
Matthew Solomon:
And so I started to reconnect, and it was weird 'cause I was like, "Wow, I'm back and I'm,
refinding my roots in Judaism through social justice." And then October 7th happened. and
then, Black Lives Matter grassroots posted in solidarity with the Palestinian people as a
resistance movement. And then I saw all of these, white Jewish folks, saying things like,
"We marched with you in the streets in 2020, and now you're siding with terrorists. We're
never gonna support you again." And I'm like, "Wait a second. Why aren't we at least having
a conversation about this?" I met somebody who talked about this who actually was born and
raised in Israel
[00:01:00]
Matthew Solomon:
And he said, "Yeah, it was like rebooting my whole system, when I realized the truth, versus
what I thought was true."
Ezra Lipp:
Well, hello, and welcome back to The Thin Veil with Ezra Lipp. I am your host, Ezra Lipp.
thank you for joining me today. The Thin Veil is a show exploring what happens when
inherited narratives break down, when we start understanding the interconnected systems of
power and domination that are, doing a lot of harm in this world, and, how we're all
affected and implicated. And obviously, there are also a lot of conversations centered
around Palestine and anti-Zionism. We've got a great show for you today. But before we get
into that, if you're watching on, YouTube, please like and subscribe and, leave a comment
and, follow the channel. If you're listening on a podcast
[00:02:00]
Ezra Lipp:
App, please leave a review and a rating. And if, if you've listened to multiple episodes at
this point and you, you still haven't just clicked those five stars and just said, "Great
job, Ezra," or something more heartfelt and thoughtful perhaps, You know, maybe ask yourself
why. what is it about that you would continuously come back and, um, ostensibly enjoy and
learn from and find value in the content, and then just not do the, the most simple honor of
just, wanting to, share that with, the world so more people have access to these
conversations? So just do some soul searching and ask yourself why you've heard me, beg for
this, the most, simplest, humblest of, of, uh, courtesies and, and you still refuse to do
it. I n- I, I'm not taking it personally. I'm just asking you to ask yourself that question.
Thank you anyway. Also, if you wanna support the show and my work, which is as of now,
almost
[00:03:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Entirely unpaid work, and I put a lot of, a lot of love and effort and, uh, time into it,
you can support me and the show, and supporting independent content creation on my Patreon
page, which I will link to in the show notes. My guest today is filmmaker, musician, writer,
educator Matthew Solomon. His work is grounded in a deep commitment to social justice,
equity, conflict resolution, and what he describes as a world that works for everyone. His
documentary, Reimagining Safety, explores abolitionist approaches to policing, prisons,
community care, and public safety. His newest film, Seeds for Liberation, widens that lens,
centering Palestine while tracing the connections between Zionism, US imperialism, policing,
Black liberation, the Chicano movement, Indigenous struggle, and the broader fight against
colonial systems. in this conversation, Matthew and I talk about
[00:04:00]
Ezra Lipp:
His own political awakening, growing up Jewish in Los Angeles, what he had to unlearn after
October 7th, how Palestine became a bridge between movements, and why abolition is not
simply about tearing systems down, but about asking what real safety, dignity, and
solidarity could actually look like. Really enjoyed speaking with Matthew. I think you'll
enjoy our conversation.
Ezra Lipp:
Without further ado, let's get into it. I just, finished rewatching Seeds for Liberation
this morning, and it was, arguably even better the second time.
Matthew Solomon:
I've heard that a couple times. Yeah.
Ezra Lipp:
I don't know if I've really seen another film do this, centering Palestine, but really
bringing in how the systems of imperialism, colonialism, and all the other liberation
movements, the Black radical movement, the Chicano movement, and, and other
indigenous-rooted movements, like, all really come together. Have you
[00:05:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Always, made all these connections?
Matthew Solomon:
N- n- no. I-- it, it's all been a process. I think the connecting thread is that, at an
early age, th- there were just-- there was a lot of hypocrisy in, what we were being taught
in school and things like that. And I, I grew up in Los Angeles, born and raised. I had what
I found out later was a very unique experience where the schools that I went to were very
integrated, very diverse. and so I had Black friends from South Central, I had Latino
friends from East LA. I had, Donna Haji Kani, who's the executive producer of this film and
our previous one. We've been friends since seventh grade, and she's Iranian. And I've had
friends that are, Muslim and Christian, and I'm Jewish, anti-Zionist Jewish. and so, I, I
would look around or my friends would share their experiences with me, or I would see what
they were experiencing, like when we would go to the mall or the
[00:06:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Beach or whatever. and in school, they were like, "Oh, civil rights movement, racism ended.
there's just-- We just have, these other little problems, but for the most part, we're
fine." but it didn't make sense, and my questions weren't being answered. And so I-- when I
was in college the first time, I was at music school at USC in the early '90s, and I started
taking sociology and anthropology classes 'cause I was like, "Why," "Why is society like
this? Why isn't it better? How can we make it better?" And that was the first time that I
learned about structural racism, institutional racism, and w- that there are disparities in
policing and sentencing and what's deemed a crime and how severe a crime it is, all
race-based, class-based, poverty-based all of that. And that happened at the same time as
the Rodney King beating. And, and when those officers were acquitted, the LA
[00:07:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Uprisings, the LA riots. And at the same time as within months of Rodney King, there was a,
Black teenage girl named Latasha Harlins who was murdered by a Korean, shop owner at a, like
a convenience store. And that woman who murdered her, although found guilty, the judge, who
was a white woman, basically gave her time served and probation. she shot her in the back of
the head when she was walking out of the store. like all of this happened. At the time,
the-- it was called structural racism. and I was like, "Oh, if everybody knew this, of
course we would wanna fix it," 'cause, w- you know, nobody wants to be racist, right? and
that didn't happen. And then we got to, Trayvon Martin in 2013, murdered by George
Zimmerman, who was acquitted. And then the Black Lives Matter movement, and all through the
20-teens, uh, with, you know, Mike Brown and Eric Garner and, Sandra Bland. and so during
that time, I was very much aligned with Black Lives Matter
[00:08:00]
Matthew Solomon:
And also still thinking, from a point of view of, "Oh, we just need to reform things." the
systems are good, it's just, police need better training, stuff like that. and then I had
the opportunity to see how police were trained. I was-- I participated in, the sheriff's
department academy. They have role-playing, exercises that they do with the cadets, right?
So I got to see how they were trained and got to experience more of the mindset. And so when
it got to George Floyd in 2020, it was like, "Oh, wow, we're still doing this." the powers
that be really aren't interested in changing. and then having been at that point of, as a
few years a student of anti-racism and decolonization, that was when, like the dots really
started to connect. And so I started seeing things systemically, as the root of the problem.
And then October 7th,
[00:09:00]
Matthew Solomon:
2023 I knew because of, those last five, six years of, deep education, and then I went into
a master's in public administration program, and my thesis project, was on abolition, police
abolition. And that was my previous documentary, "Reimagining Safety," came out of that. So
having-- Thank you. Thank you. So having that groundwork and that framework and being in
community with organizations all across the country, I recognized that what happened on
October 7th was a response to oppression, was resistance fighting against oppression, that
would happen anywhere under those circumstances. I knew Israel was gonna have a horrible
response, like we did in 9/11, with Iraq, right? 'Cause they weren't involved. But I knew we
were gonna go to war with somebody. And so, I knew it was gonna be bad. I didn't think it
was gonna be, like, full-on genocide. And then when that happened, and when the folks that I
[00:10:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Had been following and in community with started posting their solidarity with Palestinians,
as a student, I was like, "Oh, let me look into this more." And that's when, the connections
with the Black Panther Party, and like you said, with the Chicano movement and, all of these
folks who had been drawing these, connections and parallels, became evident. I was like,
"Oh, man, I wish I knew that sooner." So it's been a process. And like you said, on the one
hand, it's complicated 'cause it's, like, all this stuff, but on the other hand, like you
said, it's really simple because it really is this one thing. It's empire, it's that, that
we're all struggling and fighting against. And when I say we, there's different levels of
how we're impacted, right? Like, you and me are on, a far more privileged side of this,
Yeah, which is by design so we are more comfortable and less likely to wanna resist it,
Yeah. We wanna go to brunch, right?
Ezra Lipp:
Yeah.
[00:11:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Yeah.
Matthew Solomon:
What keeps
Ezra Lipp:
Kamala was in office, we'd all be at brunch. It's the, uh, yeah. I wanna back up for a
second. So when you said you attended police trainings, what did you see there that
surprised you? and that made you think specifically it's not just about police reform?
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. a lot of force, right? you know, on the cars it says, "Serve and protect," but really
what they're teaching and how they're training is command and control. And what they really
drill in is, command presence, where when you show up, you're in charge, don't take crap
from anybody. you ask somebody to do something. If they don't do it, you tell them. If they
don't do it, you make them, And so it's drilled into them, y- you have to be in command and
control. There's a former LAPD officer in Reimagining Safety who talks about, her training
as a cadet, in LAPD, and how they never really were taught how to interact with people, And
so in those role-playing scenarios that I participated
[00:12:00]
Matthew Solomon:
In, there were times I was a victim. There was a times I needed help, and some other
scenarios. And all of those times it's met with this way of being, right? This very, like,
dominant, "I'm not gonna take any crap from you. I'm in charge." and when I've had
interactions with police out in the world, it's very much like that. there's no empathy
present. Or even if they do care, they're not allowed to show that they care because then
they'd be in danger, Alex Vitale talks about this. There's a, a book and an article on, the
warrior mentality, like the warrior police officer. andyou know, it's all tied to the IOF y-
you know, and the, law enforcement exchange programs between, the military in Israel and
the, policing here and, it all expands, and its tentacles are in everything.
Ezra Lipp:
So you're articulating that this was an ongoing learning journey for you as it is for many
people. Is there anything in the process of making the movie that you actually
[00:13:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Learned or deepened your understanding of that, setting out to make the movie, you still
hadn't quite connected the dots or understood something in a deeper level?
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. the connections between US imperialism and South African apartheid and Nazism, right?
So for me, after October 7th, learning about the Nakba for the first time, which I had never
heard about before, And my grandparents on my mother's side were Holocaust survivors, So I
knew their story firsthand from them telling me. making those connections and parallels that
what happened w- with, Palestinians being displaced and ethnically cleansed and murdered and
so Seeing the parallels and wondering like, why doesn't everybody I know who's Jewish see
this?" Like, why can't you make those connections? But then learning about the Haavara
Agreement and the ways that
[00:14:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Zionists and the Nazis collaborated to, get a certain class of Jewish person to Israel.
Learning about Operation Paperclip and how Nazis were, taken into the US and embedded in
our... Like NASA, given government jobs, research jobs, science jobs, all of that. but then
there was, I forget the name of the program, but there were a number of Nazis that went to
Israel, and were, working with Mossad, and Mossad was like, we need them 'cause they know
how to, find the bad guys 'cause they're the bad guys." But, but yeah, And so it was
mind-blowing, especially being Jewish I had to deprogram all of that propaganda, the Zionist
propaganda and everything. and then, but then learning about these other connections that
nobody ever taught me, right? But then when you look and you start digging, it's there. like
I, I don't know. It's horrifying.
[00:15:00]
Matthew Solomon:
It's, it's a lot of things. but that, that for me was huge
Ezra Lipp:
So like you, I grew up Jewish. all the Jewish values I was taught as a kid are all, for a
big extent oriented around social justice And to understand that community that I do believe
is sincerely invested in, social justice and what you could think of as, solidarity,
liberatory struggles, the kind of stuff you talk about in your film, is completely
backwards, have a deep level of just misunderstanding, almost an upside down level. when it
comes to Zionism. The Jewish Federation in Sacramento just hosted a, uh, event for Israeli
Independence Day, which coincides with the Nakba, and they literally had, invited IDF
soldiers to come. This is like a family event and, and you know, h- had these activities
like, "Answer these intelligence questions. Could you be good enough to be in Mossad?" And
"Here's... We're gonna celebrate, uh, Tel Aviv and startup culture,"Like the most
[00:16:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Disgusting, celebrating, capitalism, celebrating militarism and nationalism of this
apartheid state that is currently doing genocide. this is like marketed towards children. It
is such an abomination to Judaism and Jewish values that I can't overstate how much of a
betrayal it feels,
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. Yeah. all I-- everything you just said I've ex- I've experienced. You know, I went to
Hebrew school. I loved learning about the culture and l- learning Hebrew and all, like, all
of that. Here in LA, a lot of the teachers were, like, former IDF and women, So it was like,
oh, wow, this, like, badass woman was a sergeant in the IDF when she was, like, 18, 19 years
old, right? It's-- A- and at the time, it's like, oh, we're the chosen people, and, all of
this, extravagance, all of this, it boosts you up. You feel special. and by the way,
everybody hates us because we're so special, and they wanna
[00:17:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Kill us because we're so special, so we're always in danger. And if anybody attacks Israel,
we have to fight back 10 times harder because we're fighting everybody. Oh, and by the way,
God's on our side 'cause we're the chosen people. Like, all of that. and then, I really
appreciate you, you mentioning social justice because that-- in my early 20s when I-- after
taking the sociology classes and anthropology and comparative religion, I left organized
religion, and I just kinda went on my own, spiritual quest, like a lot of LA people do.
didn't go to temple anymore. I still, I was bar mitzvahed and confirmed, and, I still know
all the prayers, But I wasn't, practicing going to temple and things like that. With
"Reimagining Safety," when I started traveling around the country doing screenings of that
film, I started to find all these Jewish organizations that were social justice, some of
them even
[00:18:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Saying, "We center Black liberation as part of our Jewish social justice movement." And so I
started to reconnect, You know, I didn't do, Birthright. I went to, like summer camp like
once or twice. but I was meeting all these people that their whole lives they were part of
that community, with people they did Birthright together, with people they went to camp, all
through, childhood together. and it was weird 'cause I was like, "Wow, I'm back and I'm, re-
r- refinding my roots in Judaism through social justice." And then October 7th happened. and
then, Black Lives Matter grassroots posted in solidarity with the Palestinian people as a
resistance movement. And then I saw all of these, white Jewish folks, saying things like,
"We marched with you in the streets in 2020, and now you're siding with terrorists. We're
never gonna support you again."
Ezra Lipp:
Mm-hmm.
Matthew Solomon:
Or, "We support the movement as a whole, the idea
[00:19:00]
Matthew Solomon:
That Black lives matter, but we're never gonna support, the organization or the movements."
And I'm like, "Wait a second. Why aren't we at least having a conversation about this?" why
is it so, like, cut and dry? And then the rhetoric about, like, October 7th was the worst
thing to happen to Jewish people since the Holocaust, right? If we use the 1,200 number
versus 6 million, it's like, really? So all of that I felt like I was in upside-down world,
like you were talking about. And then I would see these arguments, it was like, how do you
even get to that? I don't understand. it really took quite a few months for me to
recalibrate. and then there was the learning journey that went with that. But yeah, I met
somebody who talked about this who actually was born and raised in Israel and lived, grew up
on a kibbutz and all of that. And he said, "Yeah, it was like rebooting my whole system,
when
[00:20:00]
Matthew Solomon:
I realized the truth, versus what I thought was true."
Ezra Lipp:
How did you embark on your learning journey when you first were like, "Okay, I need to look
into this"?
Matthew Solomon:
At first it was a lot of, teachers that I have followed on Instagram, and then reading,
"Hundred Years' Horror" by Rashid Khalidi. that was like the first book that I really read,
and then "Justice for Some" by Noura Erakat. and, listening to, Gabor Maté like there was a,
virtual panel that he did soon after October 7th that was him and Angela Davis, and it was
amazing. And I mentioned Ayman Najam, who's in the film. He and I are classmates We're in a
PhD program together. And, we started at the same time, which was August 2023, and so
October 7th happened, and then
[00:21:00]
Matthew Solomon:
We had like a course meeting a couple weeks after that, and he wasn't there. And the
professor, says, "Yeah, Ayman's not here today. he lost 30 family members in Gaza over the
last two weeks."
Ezra Lipp:
Peace
Matthew Solomon:
And I was like, "30?" And I just-- Like I started saying it out loud. Like I was like, "Hang
on. Wait, 30 family members?" And could I even count 30 of my family members? You know, how
long would that take me? And so that was like the initial jolt of like, whoa, you know,
justthe magnitude. And that was two weeks after October 7th. it's been more since then, but
yeah, the, those books, watching videos, listening to people. Most of my Jewish friends that
I've had, growing up don't really, don't talk to me anymore. Like we've, had our
altercations in our DMs and that sort of thing.
Ezra Lipp:
You've, you've tried having conversations?
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. yeah.
[00:22:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah.
Ezra Lipp:
Have you made any progress with anyone?
Matthew Solomon:
My dad read Ta-Nehisi Coates' book, "The Message." and before that, we had conversations and
he, And my dad's 82, so--for him, he was like, when people would mention Zionism, Zionists,
like he, he conflated that with Judaism.
Matthew Solomon:
But he read that book, and he initiated a conversation with me out of nowhere. he's like,
"Wow, I never would've made that connection between apartheid and what's happening in Gaza."
And so I'm so grateful y- that I have him who understands. he and my kids are like the core,
are pretty much the only family that I have that are-- that understand and are aligned. the
other conversations, I mean, it's always, "You don't know what it's like. You should go
there."you
[00:23:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Know, "You're, you're, you know, delusional." But mostly it's,
Ezra Lipp:
"Well, you don't really know what it's like, you know, so you should come here. We'll have a
beer and we'll talk." Like they always wanna have a beer. With that said, who do you think
your movie is for? I loved it. It excites me as somebody already involved in the movement
you've toured this movie around the country. you've probably spoken to, lots of audiences
that have seen it with you. Do you feel like this does the work of opening people's eyes
that are, on different parts of the journey? do you think it might change somebody that-- a
Jewish friend that you've known who's still been resistant?
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. I've, had, a few Jewish friends who have come to screenings who for the most part,
they were like, "Oh, I haven't really been following what's happening." and accepted, we
have to protect Israel and all of that. there was three separate folks who all three
separately said,
[00:24:00]
Matthew Solomon:
"Wow, I had no idea.
Ezra Lipp:
This really opened my eyes. I wanna learn more. This gave me a lot to think about." That's
amazing.
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. Yeah. and it's a relief, so there's been that. when I think of, who is it for? It is
for those people that I've had the DM, battles with, 'cause it's like I just want them to
understand, so here's the information. I don't expect that, they'll necessarily believe it,
but there's the people in the middle that are either, more the, the liberal Zionists or the
folks who, like I said, haven't really been paying attention, but they just accepted a
reality because that's what we were told, that will be like, "Oh, there's this whole other
experience that I never knew existed, and it's horrible." I'm always very conscious about
de-centering myself and amplifying the people that are in the film and the communities
[00:25:00]
Matthew Solomon:
That are represented. so when people from those communities, give me the seal of approval,
that's really r-really important 'cause, I wanna get it right. I don't wanna be like, "
who's this white dude that's making this film about us and gets it wrong?" Like, every
Palestinian person who's in the film asked me, "What's your angle? Is this some, like,
two-state solution bullshit?"
Ezra Lipp:
Yeah.
Matthew Solomon:
And I was like, "No, not at all." And my angle is I want you to tell your story, and I'm
just gonna, record it and ask questions and get out of the way,
Ezra Lipp:
You're in conversation with lots of activists from different movements do you ever get a
sense that there is any, cross-movement resentment? I'm wondering, is there a way that,
media and popular culture intersect, is there threats that in centering one movement, we
somehow do disservice to other movements?
Matthew Solomon:
Actually,
[00:26:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Going back to your question about who's this movie for, that's another audience that this
movie is for, the folks who are in, organizations or movements that have that thought of
"Why are we fighting for them when we need to take care of ourselves?" because the film
connects those dots. And so I, I absolutely have seen that. Dr. Nora Eurakat talks about
this in the film also, and it was more in the interview she talks about it, but if you go
far enough left, like everybody gets how interconnected the struggles are. It's when you
start to, move away from that, that it's like, what about us?" Or, "Why are we doing that
for them? They don't care about us." so I'll see people on social media, it's like, "Oh,
what do, what do we care about these ICE raids for?" You know, "Latinos have never done
anything for the Black community." And it's like, well, actually, yeah, they have, you know.
Or vice versa, like, "What do, what, what do we care about Black Lives Matter when they
haven't done anything for, you know, the Lat-"
[00:27:00]
Matthew Solomon:
And it's like, well, actually they have. And then, and then you go back and you realize, oh,
they were all connected to not only Palestine, but also, like, Vietnam. that was a section,
that was talked about that we just didn't have space in the film and couldn't make it work.
but a lot of the Chicano movement and the Black Power movement were, connected over our
involvement in Vietnam as a anti-imperialist struggle, right? Anti-capitalist, anti-colonial
struggle. so to answer your question, yeah, that does happen because it happens. and when,
you know, like I said, far enough left, like everybody gets how it's all connected and we're
all fighting the same struggle.
Ezra Lipp:
Do you wanna talk a little about, some of the models of, prison abolitionist thinking and
non-carceral models of safety that you highlight in "Reimagining Safety"?
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. the biggest thing, like people always ask, who do we call, if we don't call the
police," right? And
[00:28:00]
Matthew Solomon:
So one of the things that's in the film, are community responders. sometimes they're called
community responders or crisis intervention, where these are teams of people, usually two or
three, who are trained in de-escalation, who are social workers, mental health
professionals, who respond to nonviolent calls these are people who show up who aren't
armed, they're not in uniform, they don't have handcuffs, they're not there to arrest or
hurt anybody. They're there to provide services and connect people to services, right? And
there are so many more organizations like that across the country. When I was doing
Reimagining Safety, there was only three that really popped up when I was searching and,
researching. but there are many of them, and they're all very successful. nobody's been
killed or arrested. and so there's that. abolition is, is rooted in people being treated
with dignity and care and having their needs met. And so most of the things that are
[00:29:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Labeled as crime or criminal activity are tied to poverty, tied to, desperation because of
lack of access to housing or food or jobs or money, are tied to mental health, and not
having that support or other forms of, physical health where they don't have that support,
so when people have their needs met, what we label as crime decreases, and this has been
shown in many studies over time. the communities with the most resources have the lowest
crime rates 'cause like people have what they need, right? so there's that. And
Ezra Lipp:
They have a totally different relationship to law enforcement because they're there not to
Matthew Solomon:
To tar- target them, hunt them, harass them. and then the third part is restorative justice,
which is a structured way of dealing with harm, addressing harm between the person that
committed the harm and the person who was-- who had the harm committed against them,
[00:30:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Right? punishment has been shown it doesn't deter. it actually, perpetuates cycles of harm
and abuse and violence. So when people are actually, when there's a harm done, are able to
sit down and work through what happened and come to an agreement for what would restore that
relationship or what would restore the harm that's been committed, then like people get to
be whole and complete and move forward in a way where there's nothing, not something like
missing or not something that's been unaddressed. 'cause a lot of times even, with the
criminal system here, if a family member's harmed or killed, right? And then the person gets
the death penalty, yeah, the family gets to know that, quote, "justice was served," but
there's still that hole there that's unresolved, and that there's no, access to, mental
health support to help them through
[00:31:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Whatever it is. It's like, "Oh, well, justice is served, now you get to move on with your
life." It doesn't work like that. Like we're, we don't operate like that. So restorative
justice provides a structure and a framework where people actually get what they need in
order to heal from harm, and the person that committed the harm gets to heal in a way where
y- likely they're not committing those types of harms again.
Ezra Lipp:
So I'm sure this is a question that is often asked and I'm sure there's something to address
this, but as someone less familiar with, how these systems work, like that sounds awesome
and, but what happens when we're talking about murder, when we're talking about rape, sexual
violence? to expect, the, a victim to need to sit in a room with their perpetrator, somebody
who raped them or killed their brother or child, what is to keep those people, from getting
re-traumatized?
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. the first part of it is
[00:32:00]
Matthew Solomon:
It's not like a one-size-fits-all application, right? So there, there are conversations and
structures and things that are, agreed upon, worked out ahead of time. and I would say that
the system we have now Doesn't prevent rape, it doesn't prevent murder. people who are the
victims of rape are re-traumatized, being interviewed by the police and/or doctors and not
being believed, and then having to go to court and face the person and, be in front of a
room full of people and then, you know, 12 jurors or whatever. so with, what you're asking,
there has to be a better way, and these methods have been demonstrated to be, more
effective. and there, there are studies of this, and there are places where restorative
justice is practiced. especially you get into wealthier communities and people who have
their needs met, they, who know their neighbors and things like that, like
[00:33:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Things get worked out. and so yeah, it-- Like I said, it's not a one-size-fits-all, and
there are ways to address these things, much more effectively than what we have now.
Ezra Lipp:
For sure.
Matthew Solomon:
Like as a kid, I remember, them saying like one in four women have been the victims of rape.
That hasn't changed. I'm 53 years old. It's, that number has not changed despite, having
more people incarcerated than anywhere else, the largest police force. like LAPD just got a
budget increase, $3.6 billion. And when I did Reimagining Safety, it was $3.2 billion,
right? So that's a half a billion dollars it's increased, since 2022. and like none of
those, these rates are going down.
Ezra Lipp:
Nor does it do anything to address or minimize, the structural, the systemic issues that
lead to
[00:34:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Crime, which are rooted in poverty and, systemic inequality and racism
Matthew Solomon:
And like along those lines, we're talking about punishment as a band-aid for rape and sexual
abuse, which like it doesn't go to the root of that, which abolition provides that framework
'cause it's anti-capitalist, it's anti-patriarchy, it's anti-imperialist, anti-colonial. so
the-- how we teach our youth and adults, and how we teach people to interact and see people
as equally being worthy of dignity and respect, right? 'cause we stop othering each other.
that, that's a way to prevent these types of things, at the root, versus just being like,
what do we do when they do it?" let's stop them from doing it in the first place.
Ezra Lipp:
I heard you say on an interview, the more that I know, the more that I see that the lies are
so blatant." And I feel like these two opposing narratives are intensifying. one is
[00:35:00]
Ezra Lipp:
The realization that people are waking up, seeing how, we're not meant to fight with each
other, that our safety relies in solidarity, that the systems of capitalism, imperialism,
colonialism are all, working against us, and then the alternative narratives of extractive
capitalism and, the manosphere and the idea that, we're meant to just get as rich as we can
and we're all out for ourselves and that is somehow the only path and our, our safety lies
in having, uh, the biggest fortress and the biggest military. Like, I feel like those
narratives are really colliding in the most intensive way that I've understood in my
lifetime and I don't know. what do you think's gonna happen?
Matthew Solomon:
What's gonna happen? I don't know. That's, that's what-- that's why we're, that's why we're
here. for me, 2020 with COVID, that was a big turning point because I saw how quickly human
beings were written off, it was so easy for people to be like, "Oh, yeah, people are dying,
but it's
[00:36:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Not COVID. Like we're being lied to and people die anyway, so what's, what's the big deal?"
And, "Oh, you're infringing on my rights by making me wear a mask." Or, you know, here in
LA, um, know, we had shelter in place. No businesses were open except for like supermarkets
at a certain time of day. and literally there were people that I knew that I don't anymore
who were like, "Oh, this is like the Nazi, brown shirts, 'cause I can't open my store." and
I was like,
Ezra Lipp:
Yeah
Matthew Solomon:
"My, my grandparents survived that. This is not that."
Ezra Lipp:
This is about taking care of each other
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah. And so I, and I really think, there is that divide andwhen people ask me like, "What
do we do?" Community is what we do. solidarity, coalition building, learning how to grow
food and exchange food or exchange like, "I can do this, you can do that, let's put this
together," and being more community-focused than individual-focused. and going
[00:37:00]
Matthew Solomon:
Back to like the historical context, like there are people who have been organizing in this
way for, decades or longer. so yeah, I don't know how it's gonna pan out, but I know that,
I'm fortunate to have found people who care about people and that's who I'm gonna be,
hanging out with.
Ezra Lipp:
Yeah.
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah.
Ezra Lipp:
I think that's a great place to end. Matthew Solomon, thank you so much for, uh, coming on
today,
Matthew Solomon:
Yeah, it's been
Ezra Lipp:
Conversation. Yeah. And that is a wrap. Thank you so much for listening and/or, and/or
watching The Thin Veil with Ezra Lipp. Matthew, thank you so much for coming on the show. I
really appreciate everything you're doing. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me
and share your words and wisdom. I hope everyone watches Matthew's films and, continues to
follow him. All that stuff is linked in the show notes, of course. I will see you next week
with a brand-new episode. Visit my Patreon page if you'd like to support my
[00:38:00]
Ezra Lipp:
Work. The music you're listening to is from Magic in the Other, which is my band. I wish you
a very good week in a very free Palestine. Keep showing up and doing what you're doing.
thank you for being here