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Conversations on Reforestation, Silviculture, Tree Genetics, Planting, Planning and More! Join us as we go deep with forestry experts and explore the art and science of trees.
Paul Jeffreys (00:05)
Hello and welcome everybody to the ArborGen TreeLines podcast. I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys and I'd like to welcome our guests today. Today we've got Steven Peter ⁓ and Dr. ⁓ Heine And today's episode, we're going to be talking about landowner to mill a 360 degree look at today's timber market.
Paul Jeffreys (00:28)
And we're going to be talking about seeing what the looking at the market from every single ⁓ angle. So with that being said, ⁓ Steven, would you like to give us a little bit of your background and tell us where you come from and how you got into forestry?
Steven Peter (00:42)
Okay, well, I guess I got into forestry because I love trees. And ever since I
Paul Jeffreys (00:46)
Yeah.
Steven Peter (00:46)
was a little boy, I remember just looking at trees and enjoying them. And then one day I went to college and thought I was going to be a veterinarian. I was trying to appease my high school sweetheart's parents because they thought foresters didn't make enough money. So somewhere in my...
Steven Peter (01:07)
in my first couple of months at Virginia Tech, the pre-vet program and the forestry program were in the same school. Well, they had an intro to natural resources class. And so you got exposed to every option, you know, from wildlife
Paul Jeffreys (01:22)
All right.
Steven Peter (01:23)
management to forestry. And I very quickly realized that the forest industry was
Steven Peter (01:29)
you know, a top industry in every state in the South. And it was not at all what I was led to believe. So I quickly changed my major ⁓ and then I also quickly ⁓ became in passioned with this desire to be a tree farmer.
Paul Jeffreys (01:42)
Okay.
Steven Peter (01:43)
So then that shaped most of my career because no one in my family even knew what a tree farmer was. No one owned land. So in order to be a tree farmer, I needed to shape
Steven Peter (01:53)
my career more on an entrepreneurial path. So I learned everything I could about land, how to acquire it, how to run a business. And of course, once I've made my first dollar, the first thing I did was run out and buy a piece of land. And so everything just has kind of grown from that passion of being a tree farmer.
Paul Jeffreys (02:10)
Wow, that leads to that's going to lead into a lot of discussion today. So I'm anxious to get into that. So before we jump into that, to that big, big pool, Dr. Heine, who is joining us today, first time you've joined us today as Dr. Heine, give us a little bit of your background and tell us about some new recent developments that just happened with you.
Austin Heine (02:32)
Okay, so I guess my background, if I go all the way back and how I got into forestry, kind of grew up in the city in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And I had a close family friend that was in logging that in high school. He was like, hey, you should come out to the woods and see what we're doing. So I got to see a logging job, helped him flagging some property lines. He steered me towards NC State.
Austin Heine (02:56)
University for Forestry and I don't know when I got there I just kind of locked in it's like this is this is where I
Paul Jeffreys (03:03)
Yep.
Austin Heine (03:04)
need to be and I never never looked back. While I was working on my undergrad there I had an opportunity to come up to start working for the NC State Tree Improvement Cooperative. Basically started working at their greenhouses and in the lab testing pollen.
Austin Heine (03:21)
helping measure in progeny tests. And as I was going to graduate, decided that I was gonna stay on for getting my master's. So I started into their graduate program. I think I was a full-time student for a semester and then an opportunity came up to work there. So I started working for the co-op and I think I worked there for eight years full-time.
Paul Jeffreys (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Austin Heine (03:43)
And while I was there, I was, was pursuing my degrees. I did complete my masters and then, it took a while, but I just finished up my PhD.
Paul Jeffreys (03:52)
You
Austin Heine (03:53)
so I was able to complete my PhD. you know, I did the classwork while I was working there, kind of part-time, working full-time. And then, I left to go work for ArborGen a few years ago and had to finish up.
Austin Heine (04:06)
I think I had one class and then finished in writing. So just got that done. But I'm very appreciative of the time I spent at NC State. I got to learn from a lot of great professors, had some good mentors there with Steve McKean and JB Jett, Goldfarb. I got to learn a lot. So I appreciate
Paul Jeffreys (04:25)
All right.
Austin Heine (04:26)
everything that I was able to learn there.
Paul Jeffreys (04:28)
Well, congratulations. And that's a major, major accomplishment there. And we can talk about that at length later, but let's jump into the day's discussion with, with Steven here and talk about, know, your role you have ⁓ served or you are in all facets of forestry. mean, Austin was telling me about working with you and all that you do and your experience.
Paul Jeffreys (04:54)
But, you know, what happens when one person sits in nearly every seat of the forestry value chain? I mean, you literally have done a lot.
Steven Peter (05:04)
Well, the first thing I think it allows you to do is satisfy the customer.
Paul Jeffreys (05:08)
Mm-hmm.
Steven Peter (05:08)
So, and that's a key to my success.
Paul Jeffreys (05:11)
Yes,
Paul Jeffreys (05:12)
very everybody's.
Steven Peter (05:13)
my company's success. So it's, for me, it's always a little bit personal. So you always want to satisfy the customer. We're here to serve. So that comes before ⁓ the profit. So yeah, so when you're making recommendations, I've, having served in every role, so as a forester for a paper mill, that's how I started actually working as
Paul Jeffreys (05:34)
Right.
Steven Peter (05:35)
a wood dealer.
Steven Peter (05:35)
I started my own wood dealer after I left the paper company, quickly added on a couple of logging crews. Currently all my log harvesting is through subcontractors. But we always approach things differently. we weren't just buying someone's timber. We were trying to help them achieve objectives.
Paul Jeffreys (05:53)
All right.
Steven Peter (05:53)
We developed a lot of long-term relationships very quickly. So our
Steven Peter (05:58)
our customers seek, come to us for a lot of advice. So we're helping with reforestation. And then you heard me talking about my passions to be a tree farmer. So I love to experiment. I love to push the envelope on everything from wildlife management to maximizing, know, tons per acre per year. I have interest on all of it. So somewhere on the farm we're
Steven Peter (06:21)
pushing the envelope one way or the other. ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (06:23)
Right.
Steven Peter (06:24)
But we're also excited to do this for our landowners. So today where I sit, some of my best friends own a sawmill. So ⁓ my day-to-day job, that's my biggest customer, is to satisfy the needs of that sawmill, the logs, the day-to-day demand. And then my next tier of best friends are loggers, so,
Steven Peter (06:44)
Again, everything's personal and then mixed in with all that is a bunch of landowners. And then I work with other consultants and we're just working together as a community to satisfy. And so we're not just trying to make a profit.
Paul Jeffreys (06:57)
Right.
Steven Peter (06:57)
We're here to serve. So I'm kind of in the middle. I'm serving the landowners, the loggers and the mills.
Paul Jeffreys (07:04)
Yeah,
Paul Jeffreys (07:04)
Steven, you brought up a good point there talking about serving. And the way I look at foresters and our role in
Austin Heine (07:12)
because
Paul Jeffreys (07:13)
forestry is, yes, we are working with landowners. We are serving and feeding mills are getting wood from the landowner to the mill to produce the products that we use every day in everyday life. We use that. But at the same time,
Paul Jeffreys (07:29)
Guys, don't know, you know, tell me if you agree or disagree, but I also look at our role is we're here protecting the forest. And not only are we serving the landowner, but I think, you know, as a, as a forester myself, I look at it as, as it is my role also to make sure that we are protecting the forest and the environment too.
Steven Peter (07:51)
Yes, absolutely. And it's about stewardship, know, leaving it better than you found.
Paul Jeffreys (07:57)
Thank you for that word. couldn't think of that word when I was going through that stewardship, being a good steward. Thank you for that, Steven.
Austin Heine (08:03)
Yeah, I mean, I'll chime in there. I'd like to think that what we do every day is to try to help landowners meet their goals. mean, goals number one, what's your objective? But if their objective is to keep their land and keep it in timber, I'm gonna do everything I can to help that landowner meet that goal through.
Austin Heine (08:23)
you know, the seedlings that they pick or the advanced genetics that they're picking. You know, we run models to help, you know, with financial models to show that value. But that's something that I'm really passionate about is just trying to help landowners keep their land and timber. You know, that's a goal is to keep it as a family farm. You know, what can we do to help you with that? And I think advanced genetics, I know we're going to get into this, but advanced genetics and
Austin Heine (08:48)
you how we set up that stand is gonna help them meet that goal. There's a whole lot of other
Paul Jeffreys (08:54)
Right, right. mean,
Austin Heine (08:56)
things too with like invasive species and all that. You talk about being a steward of the land. I talk to a lot of people about that too. I'm passionate about just, yeah, trying to make each property better than when we started with it. Okay.
Paul Jeffreys (09:11)
Don't get into invasive species Austin.
Paul Jeffreys (09:13)
⁓ We'll get down a rabbit hole real quick. We've got only a limited amount of time here and that's a pet peeve of mine as it is. I think it's probably for all of us. So, know, Steven in your area, having the roles that you have all across forestry.
Paul Jeffreys (09:29)
What are you seeing in your market? First of all, where are you located? and your business is? Tell us a little bit about your business and where you're located and what you're seeing in your markets in your area.
Steven Peter (09:43)
Okay, so the headquarters of my business and my focus is in Eastern Virginia. So east of Richmond, about 30 miles. We're kind of the Potomac River to the north, the Chesapeake Bay to the east and the James River to the south. We used to cover a bigger area, but as things have changed, our core focus has narrowed and again, just trying to provide the best services.
Steven Peter (10:05)
it seemed smarter to just narrow into that area. So again, my company is called Southpaw Forest Products and we are a service provider. It's based on and sustained by long-term relationships. So
Paul Jeffreys (10:18)
Mm-hmm.
Steven Peter (10:19)
almost every day-to-day relationship that I'm involved with is 10 years or longer. Some
Paul Jeffreys (10:25)
Right.
Steven Peter (10:25)
of them are 30 years or longer. So.
Steven Peter (10:28)
My main day-to-day concerns are making sure the sawmill doesn't run out of logs and that my loggers can produce as close to wide open as possible. And
Paul Jeffreys (10:37)
Right.
Steven Peter (10:37)
then of course we have to satisfy our landowners. we're, it's, when my phone rings, it can be quite stressful because people most of the time when they're calling is because they have a question or a concern. So it
Paul Jeffreys (10:50)
Right.
Steven Peter (10:50)
can be stressful. It's a high demand situation, but I have a great team around me and
Steven Peter (10:56)
I have to pass a lot of the credit on to them. We've been working together for so long, we almost can read each other's minds. We just know what needs to be done and as a team, we just take care of it.
Paul Jeffreys (11:06)
Well,
Paul Jeffreys (11:07)
that's a relationship, partnership, family. I mean, that sounds like you've got a lot of long-term relationships there with the people there in the industry in your area. So what are you seeing in the markets in Virginia?
Steven Peter (11:21)
Well, like most areas, we've seen a long-term decline in the pulpwood side. We still have a strong pulpwood market compared to a lot of areas. So we've lost some markets, but some of our bigger markets have remained. But due to a couple of factors like inflation and I guess a lack of competition, know, a lot of the income for a landowner now is coming from the saw timber side.
Steven Peter (11:43)
So it's, we're just happy to get rid of the pulpwood nowadays, you know? And so things like your first thinnings are very challenging to get done. Not impossible, but just harder.
Paul Jeffreys (11:51)
Right. Right.
Steven Peter (11:54)
So of course, if you're a tree farmer, you know how important getting thinnings done is to meeting your objectives. Even if you have a wildlife objective, it's actually easier for me to do a second thinning than a first one because
Paul Jeffreys (12:06)
Right.
Steven Peter (12:06)
of the diverse product.
Paul Jeffreys (12:07)
Right, well that second thinning is going to have more of your chip-n-saw, more of your long-term final product in mind with lumber on that second thin. So I can understand that very well. That first thinning here, ⁓ I think it's with every, in a lot of areas, it's very difficult to get done.
Steven Peter (12:24)
Yeah. And like everyone else, we're scared about losing more markets. So when, when you plant a tree, you know, you're looking 15 and 30 years out. And so we're trying to make sure that tree farming remains profitable. we're, we're adjusting our silviculture practices accordingly. So if we're making, ⁓ if the key to making money or staying profitable as a tree farmer is growing saw timber.
Steven Peter (12:48)
we need to focus on that. we very quickly have adjusted to our, many trees per acre we're planting. And of course, because we were really pushing the envelope, so for us, it's not uncommon to plant only 300 trees per acre.
Paul Jeffreys (13:02)
Wow. You know, that's some people, some people would say that is as being very low. So y'all are actually planting 300 trees to acre.
Steven Peter (13:11)
Correct. This year, everything we planted was 300 trees per acre. We do
Paul Jeffreys (13:14)
Okay.
Steven Peter (13:16)
other prescriptions, but this year, everything kind of fit the same prescription. So of course, genetics matters, and I know Austin's
Austin Heine (13:24)
you
Steven Peter (13:25)
over there ready to jump in, but when you go that low, every tree matters. So we're all in on containerized and the best genetics.
Paul Jeffreys (13:35)
Right. So Austin,
Steven Peter (13:37)
More saw.
Paul Jeffreys (13:39)
are you hearing from landowners in the field in that area and up in your territory?
Austin Heine (13:44)
I mean, it's kind of similar to what Steve was talking about just now. was just, concerns over markets. I guess one of the things that I've dealt with some landowners directly on, in pretty tough conversations is just, you know, Hey, I made this amount or I made a small amount or smaller amount on my last harvest. you know, like, what do I do?
Austin Heine (14:08)
You know, so it's kind of, I don't know, I guess from hearing that, you know, that could be seen as deflating, you know, when they do a timber harvest and they make less. But yeah, you said, am I hearing? I mean, I would say just concerns over the market and what, you know, what should I do to better prepare for moving forward?
Paul Jeffreys (14:30)
Bye.
Austin Heine (14:31)
Which I don't know if you want to dive into that right now, but I mean, that's,
Paul Jeffreys (14:35)
We'll get to that
Austin Heine (14:36)
Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (14:36)
in a second.
Austin Heine (14:38)
Just,
Austin Heine (14:38)
yeah, ⁓ I would say mainly concerns over price and markets. ⁓ That's
Paul Jeffreys (14:43)
Right.
Austin Heine (14:44)
a big thing. And yeah, I mean, just, hey, what should I go back with? I would say too, like on the species side, you know, do I keep going with loblolly or should I mix it up? I mean, that's a question I'm getting a lot too. And I do have some landowners that are kind of mixing it up some. So. ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (15:00)
Right.
Paul Jeffreys (15:01)
Well, diversification, you know, let's, let's, let's, before we go down that, that, that, pathway, let's, you know, let's get into aligning your, perception with, you know, the reality and the current markets and, and, Steven and, know, you mentioned earlier that you're also a landowner, you know, and
Paul Jeffreys (15:22)
How has the current markets that you're seeing in Virginia, how has that helped shape your decisions that you've made as a landowner? But also how has it helped you with the recommendations that you've given to some of your clients, your landowner clients in that area?
Steven Peter (15:39)
Well, you know, everything we're doing is in response to markets and not just where they are today. We're clearly looking forward. So one thing I encourage every landowner to do is to find their property on a map and take a circle, draw a radius of 40, maybe 50 miles around. And you should know every market in that area. And then also what you anticipate, spend some time, ask for some help on this.
Steven Peter (16:04)
What do you think is potentially going to add or go away over the next 15 or 30 years? ⁓
Paul Jeffreys (16:11)
Right.
Steven Peter (16:12)
And you should try to anticipate, adjust your objectives ⁓ and ⁓ your practices accordingly. Because if you want to remain profitable, let's face it, you can't be growing pulpwood if you're in a saw timber market and vice versa.
Steven Peter (16:26)
Some people are still lucky and they're going to, you know, there are some places where the pulpwood markets are expanding
Paul Jeffreys (16:32)
You're right.
Steven Peter (16:32)
and those are very lucky people. And
Paul Jeffreys (16:34)
Exactly.
Steven Peter (16:35)
so they have more options. So you should, you should know that. But in our area, you know, we're definitely keying in. We have a handful of family run sawmills that have really dug in. have deep roots and that's the future of our market. That's the, and so.
Steven Peter (16:49)
It's clear. So we want to grow good quality, straight saw timber trees. we don't need, our markets are not saying, hey, we need big ones. So anything over 20 inches is not really that desirable. So we need 10, 12, 14 inch cylinders. And as a tree farmer, we want to get there as fast as we can. So shortening the rotation, maybe getting it down to 25 years.
Steven Peter (17:14)
you know, because even right now with the past practices, you know, 30 years is plenty.
Paul Jeffreys (17:18)
Right.
Steven Peter (17:19)
We're hoping to shorten, to shorten that. So, you know, one of the things that I, that I do is we don't, you know, I would, I wish we could do it the way I was doing it. know, 15 years ago, we were planning 550, 600 trees, eight by 10, seven by 10. And the goal was to maximize tons per acre per year. We were going to do two thinnings.
Steven Peter (17:39)
The markets were robust. Loggers were everywhere to thin.
Paul Jeffreys (17:42)
Right.
Steven Peter (17:43)
But now that is basically changed. So it's hard to get thinnings done. And then demand for pulpwood is tricky. It's not
Paul Jeffreys (17:50)
You're right.
Steven Peter (17:50)
on, but it's tricky. So we want to reduce the reliance. So there's the real threat that you won't be able to get first thinnings done in the future. We see it.
Steven Peter (18:01)
If we lose any more markets, it's imminent. So we used to plant more trees as insurance against mother nature and poor genetics. Now we want to plant fewer trees using good genetics because our biggest threat is the markets.
Paul Jeffreys (18:15)
All right.
Steven Peter (18:16)
We know we can chip a bigger tree, but we can't send a small tree to a sawmill.
Paul Jeffreys (18:20)
Yeah, that's something I've always thought was a great way to look at it is you can always put a saw log through a pulp mill, but you can't reverse that process. You cannot put a pulp wood tree through a saw mill because you're just not going to get, know, that, whether that, whatever renders that tree, pulp wood, whether it's the size, whether it's the disease, the fork, the crook that's in the stem.
Paul Jeffreys (18:45)
it's not going to go through a sawmill and produce a quality board.
Steven Peter (18:51)
Paul, I want to mention, because it's really important. When I was at Virginia Tech, when I was coming up, one of the things that I was exposed to was a lot of research. So my first jobs were working in the summers for PhD students like Austin and college professors. So I put in a lot of field studies and I really enjoyed it. But for me, wanting to be a tree farmer, know, science, I had to break out. But those roots have really helped me so.
Steven Peter (19:15)
As I saw things changing, I was first driven by curiosities around wildlife management. And what was going on at the same time was these loss of markets. So I put in these studies testing these genetics as well as these really wide spacings. so my oldest study is now turning nine. And all the way up here in Virginia, we're
Steven Peter (19:39)
You know, we're at the Northern Range of Loblolly Pine.
Paul Jeffreys (19:41)
All right.
Steven Peter (19:42)
And so one of my favorite spacings in the study area now, which is kind of a perfect area, is an eight by 20, which is 270 trees per acre. But I was just looking at them last week. They're turning nine. They're two months into the ninth growing season. And, you know, eight inch diameter trees that are well over 30 feet tall, you know, in Virginia on an average site.
Paul Jeffreys (20:05)
You're right.
Steven Peter (20:06)
are common. when you think about, is this stuff crazy? But when you see these trees growing and they have room to grow, and they can really exhibit their true genetic potential, it's really awesome. And you can see, because everyone asks, will they prune, will they prune? So that's one of the things I wanted to know.
Paul Jeffreys (20:24)
Bye bye.
Steven Peter (20:24)
It does appear that yes, they're
Steven Peter (20:27)
They're doing way better than you would think. And I do,
Paul Jeffreys (20:29)
Mm-hmm.
Steven Peter (20:30)
I do believe in Austin can shed more light on that genetics is a key component of that. But, but anyway, we're, we're not just being wild. We're actually, I was testing it before I implemented it. um, we were, you know, we, came down to this 300 trees per acre slowly, um, and over time, but we're backing it up with our field, you know, our studies.
Austin Heine (20:54)
I'm going to jump in real quick and just say that I like going to visit Steve's property. It's one of my favorite places to go. Part of the reason being too is that, and I definitely would attribute this to the wider spacings, but also he does leave some big gaps between blocks, wildlife corridors, but you can't pull into his property or go down a road without seeing turkeys or quail or deer. I mean,
Austin Heine (21:18)
I've been there before that spacing study that he was talking about. We, went up there last, last spring, I guess, or early summer, and we measured it and measured branch size. Cause it's one of the things that always comes up is if you widen these things out, are you going to have massive branches? But before going to the branches, it's just, yeah, I mean, you'll be sitting there and listening to quail whistle, talking and, know, seeing turkeys.
Austin Heine (21:45)
You take a break and you walk out to the truck and look down the road, there's
Paul Jeffreys (21:48)
Right.
Austin Heine (21:48)
turkeys out there pecking around. So, I mean, there are other benefits to these wider spacings that, you know, on the wildlife side, that's something that's exciting to me for, I feel like a lot of people in forestry, like that's, that's either priority number one or number two is wildlife, you know, hunting and recreation.
Paul Jeffreys (22:04)
Exactly.
Austin Heine (22:05)
So I think Steve's land has been a, has, has
Austin Heine (22:09)
has really solidified that for me, being able to see the effects of that. Now he burns his older stands too. There's a lot that he's doing to benefit it, but I definitely think keeping that understory component longer and not just overstocked stands where it's all pine straw is important.
Paul Jeffreys (22:25)
Well,
Paul Jeffreys (22:26)
I'm glad you brought that up Austin, because that was going to be my next question was, you know, are you doing anything, Steven, underneath in the understory of these stands to keep that back? Are you doing any spraying? Are you doing any burning? And, you know, what are you seeing as far as the wildlife goes, the wildlife component of your stands?
Steven Peter (22:46)
So yes, we're doing all of it.
Paul Jeffreys (22:48)
all of it.
Steven Peter (22:49)
So we love
Austin Heine (22:49)
you
Steven Peter (22:50)
to experiment. I would encourage all foresters and landowners to experiment and make it fun. So I think most of us are not doing it for the money. We do it because we love it. So yes, do mid-rotation releases is a standard practice on the farm. So after we thin, we do a mid-rotation.
Steven Peter (23:10)
almost on every case. Sometimes there's not much to spray so we don't waste the money. And then burning as much as we can. There's more labor and effort involved. We have some of our own equipment. We have a dozer or skid steer. So we're able to keep costs down. But yes, we try to burn. Up here, we don't need to burn as often, I don't think.
Steven Peter (23:30)
three, sometimes four year rotation on burning seems to work.
Paul Jeffreys (23:34)
Well, that's pretty common. Three to four years between burns is a pretty common rotation for that. I mean, the benefits of it are just, you know, everybody in this industry knows the benefits, but you know, let's get getting back to the value and getting back to the wood products that's coming off of it. You you mentioned in your vast
Paul Jeffreys (23:56)
interactions like you have, you know, you're in every facet from the landowner to the mill. Tell us in your area what exactly mills are looking for in the wood products that they're buying.
Steven Peter (24:07)
Well, what we found through my own personal relationship with tidewater lumber is straightness is probably our most important attribute. So when we're harvesting straight logs, they go through the mill faster and cleaner and with less hangups. a straight log is, and of course as time has gone by, we don't need.
Steven Peter (24:29)
Most of the mills in our area don't require a very big log. So a 10 inch cylinder is fine. So 10, 12, 14 inches.
Paul Jeffreys (24:41)
Is that butt diameter or is that the DBH?
Steven Peter (24:43)
that would be just the small end of the log. But most of the mills are set up high speed and to handle these smaller logs. We have a couple of mills that can take some of the bigger logs, but once you start getting over 20 inches, it can be a real problem. So our area sets itself up for tree farming and plantation management.
Steven Peter (25:06)
So, you know, a short 25, 30 year rotation plays into our markets.
Austin Heine (25:12)
Yeah, well, you know, while he was talking, I was just thinking out loud or thinking to myself, that's great about the straightness because I think that's one of the traits that I think we have made the most improvement on, on the genetic side. You know, I have some pictures of Steve McKean and some of the earlier tree geneticists in wild non-improved stands where they're all over the place.
Austin Heine (25:38)
So that kind of made me smile because I think that is one thing that we have been able to make great improvements on on stem straightness. We'll continue to improve it, but we don't have the perfect tree yet, but we're going to keep working on it.
Paul Jeffreys (25:52)
What are people looking in your area up there and landowners and your dealings with the industry folks? What are people, know, what's most important? And, you know, what are people saying to you about STEM straightness and what mills are looking for?
Austin Heine (26:07)
I would say, well, as far as what's most important, I mean, I know there's a lot of emphasis on survival, on initial survival. I guess I'll go into that one real quick. As far as the survival, I would almost say that there's almost too much emphasis on that sometimes and not enough emphasis on
Austin Heine (26:24)
like the genetic side, as far as what's being planted. I people get a little bit too caught up on having close to a hundred percent survival. Going back to the mills though, I mean, yes, I think the investments that we've seen in my territory, I mean, I think about, you know, Jordan lumber, Rose bird, you know, I guess I'm going down into North Carolina with, with talking about those, but it seems like it's getting set up for.
Austin Heine (26:50)
smaller mill or smaller piece size with these mills where they're going to run, you know, more wood quicker, but it's smaller logs. There are still mills
Paul Jeffreys (26:58)
Where?
Austin Heine (26:59)
in those big diameter logs, but it does seem like they're going after smaller ones. But I was going to say one other thing when Steve was talking about that. I mean, if we're able to space these trees out and plant better genetics, kind of turn these rotations quicker.
Austin Heine (27:14)
You are lowering your risk too.
Paul Jeffreys (27:16)
Mm-hmm.
Austin Heine (27:17)
Probably not as big of a factor in Virginia. I'm gonna knock on wood saying that, like risk from hurricanes. But you do have risk with ice storms and snow to have to deal with.
Paul Jeffreys (27:29)
Well, you know, I up a good point there that I wanted to bring it that I wanted to go back and address was, you know, we're talking about the size of the logs and them being smaller, having a smaller log go through a mill. And Steven, tell me if you think this would be correct. I mean stem straightness is going to be even more vital the smaller the log is. If you have, if you're, if the mill is looking for a
Paul Jeffreys (27:55)
10, 12 inch tree. And I'm talking about butt diameter at the stump. you're targeting that size tree, that stem straightness is gonna be even more vital because let's say you've got a larger size tree and you can, and it does have a little bit of a sweep or it does have a little bit of a crook or something in it because it's larger size.
Paul Jeffreys (28:18)
the mill can cut out a dimensional piece of lumber out of the center of it ⁓ and get through that sweep or that crook a little bit. But if you've got a small size tree and it's got a sweep or a crook in it, it's going to basically, you know, it's ⁓ going to render that stem or that bowl useless because as far as lumber goes, because that crook is going to affect an even larger portion of that wood on the inside.
Steven Peter (28:46)
Yeah, absolutely. So again, when a log is perfectly straight, we can handle a small end diameter down to six inches. But if there's any kind of sweep or defect, know, it's pulpwood. It's not usable. So, you
Paul Jeffreys (28:59)
Right. That's right. Right. Right.
Steven Peter (29:02)
know.
Paul Jeffreys (29:02)
Well, you know, if you are looking at it as far as the landowners that you work with right now, you know, if you're planting your land today, are you, you know, what are you, I guess, you know, the landowners or you as a landowner, what are you doing differently today that you that they, you know, would have done back
Paul Jeffreys (29:24)
you know, even ⁓ five, 10, 15 years ago. And are they, are landowners, you know, or landowners looking far enough ahead, like what Austin was talking about there with landowners getting hung up on initial survival. You know, that's not looking very far ahead. ⁓ Are landowners looking far enough ahead into the future? And, ⁓ you know, how are you, how are you using that?
Steven Peter (29:49)
Well, I would say that yes, the landowners that I'm working with are still long-term minded. It kind of comes with growing trees and unless they have a real estate goal and they're not really tree farming.
Paul Jeffreys (30:01)
All right.
Steven Peter (30:02)
So the biggest thing that I'm seeing different today would be that almost every landowner now is...
Steven Peter (30:08)
if not more interested, but they're definitely more interested in wildlife management and aesthetics than they were 20 years ago. The conversations we have now are almost always centered around the other values besides income. So there's still an importance for income. So all these things working together with the knowing that ⁓ the majority of the income that we're anticipating is gonna come from a saw timber type product.
Steven Peter (30:33)
not the pulpwood. So it just, the logic behind these wider spacings, these lighter plantings, fewer trees per acre, you know, so when you're trying to satisfy the landowner, like help them reach their goals. So the number one thing we're doing different is just planting fewer trees per acre. And then because we're planting fewer trees per acre, it's a, you really do, should consider, you know, buying the.
Steven Peter (30:58)
the higher quality trees, the MCPs are perfect in that scenario. Again, just going back to the study area that I was talking about earlier, I was looking at them just a week ago and I was standing in two or three spots and easily across the area, 90 % of the trees that are there are exhibiting saw timber potential, which I know that's higher than any claims you guys make. And this is just one study area.
Steven Peter (31:25)
but the
Paul Jeffreys (31:26)
All right.
Steven Peter (31:26)
straightness is a clear benefit. But these trees, many of them already have a 10 inch butt. Almost every one of them has eight or nine inch butts and they're only eight years old, a little over eight years old.
Paul Jeffreys (31:37)
All right.
Steven Peter (31:38)
so, and then, you know, when you look around and you see that there's still a little bit of herbaceous, a little bit of some Forbes and some stuff hanging in there and you think about balancing
Steven Peter (31:51)
know, wildlife habitat and then potential income. But you just knowing how trees grow and the way, you know, an eight inch cylinder has twice the volume of a six inch cylinder. I'm not so sure that we're going to say we're growing less wood on these wider spacings. you know, I'm set out to, we're going to document it with Austin's help and we're going to find out exactly what
Steven Peter (32:17)
what we're gonna get. But I'm really excited. These stands are more aesthetically pleasing. There's more wildlife. You don't even have to get out of the truck to see it, but
Paul Jeffreys (32:26)
Right.
Steven Peter (32:27)
it's exciting. So that's the changes we're seeing. most landowners, it's really easy once it's explained the benefits and it's really not a hard sell.
Austin Heine (32:38)
⁓ Can
Paul Jeffreys (32:38)
Right.
Austin Heine (32:39)
I dive into that for second? If you can hear me okay.
Paul Jeffreys (32:41)
Daro Mendes!
Austin Heine (32:43)
So yeah, so I guess I made my statement earlier about people being kind of hyper-focused on survival. I really want people to think about like the genetics and what that stand is going to turn into. When I think about the difference for what he was saying in the saw timber potential, I think our estimates say that
Austin Heine (33:01)
you know, are open pollinated versus controlled pollinated, you're looking at a 20 to 25 % difference in saw timber potential, where you're getting 25 % more with MCP. Well, when you combine that with the lower stocking, like you want, you're doing lower stocking to grow a bigger diameter tree, and you want to allocate that to better stems. You know, so I go back,
Austin Heine (33:25)
This kind of helps me think about, wrote a TreeLines article about this, but why is that? And it goes back to how that seed is made. If you think about an open pollinated cone that's up on the tree, it's in a seed orchard, so it's surrounded by other selections that were grafted. Some of that pollen from those trees around it's going into that cone, but some of that pollen's coming from the pollen cloud that covers your car yellow in the spring.
Austin Heine (33:50)
and is not from a
Paul Jeffreys (33:51)
All right.
Austin Heine (33:51)
superior parent. So when you plant an open pollinated stand, you're getting more variation just because of how that cone is made. You've got a whole bunch of different dads contributing. It's the same female, but you have a bunch of different dads and that's creating that variation in your stand. I think dropping the trees per acre
Austin Heine (34:15)
is great, but you want to make sure that it's getting allocated to trees that have a better chance at becoming saw timber. And going back to your comment, Steve, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I do know there's several papers that have research studies that have looked at total stand volume with different stockings. And you can grow almost the same volume at a lower stocking rate.
Austin Heine (34:38)
I guess the again, the big thing that I would like to emphasize is just making sure that you're allocating that to saw timber and not pulpwood.
Paul Jeffreys (34:47)
Yeah, you brought me that up Austin. There's been a lot of studies. One that I referenced a lot
Paul Jeffreys (34:53)
was from the University of Georgia. They did years ago and they looked at stocking rates from 100 trees to the acre all the way up to thousand trees per acre. And from 400 to a thousand stems per acre, pretty much had, you know, there wasn't a big difference in cubic foot volume.
Paul Jeffreys (35:12)
But the one, the stands that had the 400 and 500 stems per acre had a lot more saw timber than the stands that had 800 to 1000 trees per acre, simply because they were given room to grow.
Paul Jeffreys (35:28)
So, you know, looking at that, know, what should landowners be preparing for now, Steven, as they go, as we get to, you know, if somebody's replanting today, what should they be preparing for?
Steven Peter (35:42)
They should definitely be preparing for more change. So we're dealing with change from all sides. So the harvesting, the mills, even property taxes. So we know what we love, there's a lot of challenges, there's a lot of headwinds. so, again, like I said earlier, you really need to know your area.
Steven Peter (35:59)
As you go across the South, the market opportunities change literally every 40 to 80 miles.
Austin Heine (36:04)
you
Steven Peter (36:05)
And so what's true for my part of Virginia, and then you go just South of the James River and go Southeast of Richmond, it's completely different market set up. And, you know, if you're in one of those counties that's in between, may be in a dark hole, a dark spot.
Steven Peter (36:21)
And you need to know that because, you know, as we go forward, we all must adapt. So
Paul Jeffreys (36:26)
Right.
Steven Peter (36:27)
I want the landowners to be thinking that whatever was normal 30 years ago, the new normal is different. And you are constrained by your local market scenario. And whether your objectives is wildlife management, aesthetics, or income, you're still constrained because
Steven Peter (36:44)
You know, we're all feeling this. And so the loggers are being having to change their harvesting systems are changing what they're capable of doing. Their average haul distance has to be less than it was 30 years ago. When I started, I remember sending Polkwood over 200 miles in the winter time before getting special prices and it was no trouble to get the trucking today. That would be basically impossible. I don't.
Steven Peter (37:08)
I don't know where you would get the trucks. So most loggers are constrained by just needing to be able to get at least three or four loads, if not more, per truck per day. Everything has changed. So it's not just the mills, it's the loggers, there's land use policies that we need to be aware of. And so landowners need to prepare to continue to adapt.
Paul Jeffreys (37:30)
And that's great points there that you bring up. So Steven, getting on before we start wrapping up here, I understand that you have involvement. You've been involved in a lot of the associations that help with our timber industries in our different states. So give us a little bit of a background about some of the offices you've held and some of the sit positions that you try to.
Paul Jeffreys (37:58)
have the timberland owner out there in your area.
Steven Peter (38:01)
Well...
Steven Peter (38:02)
Kind of like what I was saying earlier. So landowners need to be aware of what's going on in their part of the state, their state and their region. Well, how do you do that? So I highly recommend every professional, whether you're a logger or a landowner or a forester, you really should be at a minimum involved or a member of your state forestry association.
Steven Peter (38:27)
That's how you're gonna stay in the know. If you're not engaged, if you're not a member, anything that happens, the heartbeat of Forestry, that association is gonna let you know. They're gonna keep you informed. And so I also encourage everyone to get involved in a national organization. Because again, there's a lot of local issues, but there's a lot of issues coming out of Washington.
Paul Jeffreys (38:50)
All right.
Steven Peter (38:51)
that again, all these issues. So a lot of the solutions to our problems, as well as potential headaches that are coming at us are coming. So to be in the know, you have to be a member. so early on, I recognized this. I started not just being a member, I started getting involved. And so I've had a lot of different roles. I think the first one I ever took was on an advisory board in the local county where most of my timber lands.
Steven Peter (39:16)
So I'm on an advisory board for agriculture and forestry ⁓ for Essex County, Virginia. I'm also, I'm the current president of the Virginia Forestry Association. I also serve on the board of directors for the Forest Landowners Association. So if you're looking for a national organization, and I know ArborGen is a big supporter of Forest Landowners Association.
Steven Peter (39:37)
I can't think of a better one for a landowner or a tree farmer than to be involved in that one. Because anything that's going to concern you or both a problem and a solution, you're going to hear about it. But just
Paul Jeffreys (39:49)
Right.
Steven Peter (39:50)
staying informed. And then of course, again, on your state level, being involved in your state association. And again, I want to thank ArborGen, because ArborGen is a supporter of
Steven Peter (39:59)
I know there's big supporter of the Virginia Forestry Association, but I'm pretty sure they're involved in all the other associations as well. And so when you're looking at buying your trees, you want to partner with people that are trying to protect and serve our industry. So again, thank you to ArborGen for that. But it really is important for everyone. So when your association is, advocacy is fighting for our
Steven Peter (40:26)
our farms, fighting for our jobs. We don't have the luxury like a dentist would everyone. No one's going to say, we should do away with all dentists. But there's a lot of
Paul Jeffreys (40:34)
All right.
Steven Peter (40:34)
people who say we should do away with monoculture tree farms or.
Paul Jeffreys (40:38)
Well, was a time that I would have, as a kid, I would have said, let's do away with all dentists. you know,
Steven Peter (40:43)
Yes.
Paul Jeffreys (40:43)
but you're exactly right. There are groups out there that want to do away with a lot of a lot of the things that we do in forestry.
Steven Peter (40:50)
So we need to fight. And the way you fight is by being involved, by being a member, joining, paying your dues. But every one of these associations is out there in the fight. And advocacy is a big word. And so whether it's a t-shirt drive, a raffle, a summit, a conference, go to these things, because these are fundraisers. And that money goes right back.
Steven Peter (41:12)
to protect your farm, your job, and your family's livelihood. So, you know, I can't say it enough. know, just
Paul Jeffreys (41:19)
Right.
Steven Peter (41:19)
don't just sit on the sideline.
Paul Jeffreys (41:21)
Well, I think you did a really good job there in saying what you said there, just using saying that, you know, we've got battles out there to fight, political battles and battles that directly impact all of us and everything, the three of us and everything we do in a day to day basis and a lot of, and thousands and thousands of private landowners that are out there and we, you know, everybody needs to be involved because.
Paul Jeffreys (41:45)
But with that being said, I'd
Austin Heine (41:47)
Yep.
Paul Jeffreys (41:47)
like to say thank you to both of you for joining us today for this 19th edition of the ArborGen Tree Lines podcast. Dr. Heine, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to come on and share some of your insight. Steven, I'd like to really thank you for coming on and sharing with us your experiences in forestry.
Paul Jeffreys (42:08)
And as a, all facets of it, from a landowner to a, a mill and all the involvement that you have in it. And we'd like to say from ArborGen thank you to you, Steven, for taking those positions and holding those offices and being involved. It's, it's, you know, we like being involved with those associations. And then we'd also like supporting the, the.
Paul Jeffreys (42:37)
people that share the same passion that we share for our timberland, our forest, our wildlife, and our environmental and ecosystems as a whole. if you have, if our listeners out there have any questions about what we've discussed today or would like to get more information about the topics that we've talked to, please go to our website, arborgen.com and
Paul Jeffreys (43:04)
contact your local area ArborGen reforestation advisor, visit our website and sign up to receive our TreeLines newsletter that comes out. With that being said, I am your host, Paul Jeffreys, and thank you all for listening and look forward to seeing you next time on the ArborGen TreeLines podcast. Thank you and have a wonderful day.
Austin Heine (43:27)
Thanks Steve.
Steven Peter (43:28)
Thanks everyone.