Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
At the edge of collapse—and creation—two unlikely co-conspirators invite you into a radically honest conversation about the future. This isn’t just another tech or self-help podcast. It’s a story-driven exploration of who we are, what we value, and how we might reimagine the world when the systems around us stop serving us. We blend personal storytelling, cultural critique, and deep inquiry into what it means to be human in an age of AI, uncertainty, and transformation. We’re asking better questions—together.
Because the world is changing fast, but maybe that’s precisely what we need.
Hosted by Beth Rudden and Katie Smith, two builders of systems and challengers of the status quo. Beth is CEO of Bast.AI and a globally recognized expert in trustworthy AI, with decades of experience leading data and ethics at IBM. Katie is the founder of Humma.AI, a strategist who drove innovation and revenue growth at major global brands before turning to human rights and technology for social good. Together, they make complex issues, such as AI and its impacts on everyday people, clear, personal, and impossible to ignore.
Beth Rudden is the CEO and Founder of Bast AI, a pioneering company building explainable, personalized AI for good. With over two decades of experience as a global executive and Distinguished Engineer at IBM, Beth blends anthropology, data science, and AI governance to create tools that amplify human dignity and intelligence—not replace it.
Her work spans healthcare, education, and workforce transformation, using ontological natural language understanding (NLU) to make AI transparent, accountable, and accessible. Through Bast AI, Beth is reimagining how organizations deploy AI that’s not only accurate but aligned with ethical values, cultural context, and cognitive well-being.
Beth is also the author of AI for the Rest of Us and a passionate advocate for AI literacy, epistemic diversity, and the right to understand the systems shaping our lives. She speaks globally on the future of AI, power, and social contracts—and believes we’re all stewards of the next intelligence.
Katie Smith is the CEO and Founder of Humma.AI, a privacy-first platform building community-powered, culturally competent AI. With over two decades of experience leading digital strategy and social innovation, Katie blends systems thinking, Responsible AI, and storytelling to create tools that serve dignity, not domination. Their work spans mental health, civic tech, and digital rights, using participatory AI to make systems safer, fairer, and more accountable. Through Humma.AI, Katie is reimagining how people and businesses engage AI that’s accurate, inclusive, and governed by consent and care. Katie is also the author of Zoe Bios: The Epigenetics of Terrorism, a provocative exploration of identity, trauma, and transformation. They speak globally on the future of technology, power, and justice—and believe human empathy is the intelligence that will define our time.
Subscribe to our Substack for bonus content: https://substack.com/@andwefeelfine
Beth Rudden (00:00)
you know, how do we really make this an ending of extractive systems? Cause I'm, I'm all for it. Like, how do we do it?
Crystal (00:07)
man, that's such a good question. ⁓ I don't know exactly how we do it, but I do feel that people are starting to somatically respond or have this sense, this energetic sense that putting our information into these systems, be it Uncle Bezos putting your shin guards on the front door, because that's great. put my groceries there for a while and that was convenient.
Beth Rudden (00:26)
Yeah.
Crystal (00:30)
⁓ But that comes at a price and we're starting to see now because of the way these systems have been designed that our data has become weaponized against us. And now it is coming to the surface that that is the case. Whereas before that violation of our individual privacy and sovereignty was hidden or it was.
We knew inherently that we were sacrificing something, but it wasn't obvious. Now the filters are gone and everything is out in the open. you know, choose your, choose the devil you want to dance with.
Beth Rudden (00:57)
Mm-hmm.
Hi, welcome to and we feel fine. Today we have a really amazing guest, a human being who bridges the frontline of crypto experience and unflinching ethical clarity to conversations about labor and technology. A Naropa Institute graduate, she's witnessed first hand how web2's hierarchical structures break when forced into blockchain's organic ecosystem. Welcome Crystal Street to the show and with my co-host Katie.
Crystal, we love to always start with this really basic question. And we love to think about like, what are some good endings and beginnings for you?
Crystal (01:58)
love that question. And thank you so much for the kind introduction. That was lovely. ⁓ I think for me, ending right now is extractive systems.
Beth Rudden (02:06)
Mm.
Say more.
Katie Smith (02:10)
You're speaking our language, Crystal. You're hitting it off perfectly.
Crystal (02:12)
Thank you.
Beth Rudden (02:12)
You
Crystal (02:16)
Basically, at this phase in our journey in capitalism, in economics, and also job searching, I think just GenX in general, we've spent most of our adult lives and probably our childhoods in systems that were designed to extract from us, extract our wealth, our attention, our energy, and those systems cannot last forever.
And I feel as more people are realizing the toll of extraction on themselves, their mental health, their families, their communities, we're beginning to see people push back against that, especially in the current climate that we're living in right now. So I like to see that, I like seeing that these systems are starting to go through a transformation. And a lot of that is coming from that extraction, I think.
Beth Rudden (03:08)
Yeah, do you think that people are actually sick of being extracted from or are people still trading all of their data for the convenience of getting the box of shin guards that just arrived on my porch for my daughter's field hockey game? mean, you I, know, where, you know, where, and you, you described yourself as sort of a weirdo who stayed out of corporate structures until, you know, you were, you were later in life.
You know, what are you learning about yourself now that you have to kind of go back into these systems and like,
you know, how do we really make this an ending of extractive systems? Cause I'm, I'm all for it. Like, how do we do it?
Crystal (03:51)
man, that's such a good question. ⁓ I don't know exactly how we do it, but I do feel that people are starting to somatically respond or have this sense, this energetic sense that putting our information into these systems, be it Uncle Bezos putting your shin guards on the front door, because that's great. put my groceries there for a while and that was convenient.
Beth Rudden (04:10)
Yeah.
Crystal (04:14)
⁓ But that comes at a price and we're starting to see now because of the way these systems have been designed that our data has become weaponized against us. And now it is coming to the surface that that is the case. Whereas before that violation of our individual privacy and sovereignty was hidden or it was.
We knew inherently that we were sacrificing something, but it wasn't obvious. Now the filters are gone and everything is out in the open. you know, choose your, choose the devil you want to dance with.
Beth Rudden (04:41)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (04:49)
Yeah. There's so many devils that we dance with, right? It's almost like we really don't have a choice with big tech. Like all of us use Gmail, for example, right? You know, we pay for it so we don't have to be subjected to the advertising. Sometimes I go into it and into a, our podcast, actually, we don't have the suite. It's, it's, you know, so I see all the advertisements and I forgot how much they're just selling you something unless you pay for it, right? So if you're not paying for something, you are the product.
Beth Rudden (05:13)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (05:19)
Right? And so, yeah, it's interesting how that's, how, how do you imagine that shifting?
Crystal (05:26)
I think when people understand what Palantir really is and how it's going to be deployed, then people are going to be like, shit, it's a little late at that point. I mean, we all could have been using Proton this whole time, you know, that these tools have existed. And it's just that the other tools are easier to use. you know, Google really did lead that charge when, you know, back in 2012, when they had the ability earlier, when they the ability to change the business model.
Katie Smith (05:29)
You
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (05:52)
They chose the extraction model. And at the time
Beth Rudden (05:52)
Mm.
Crystal (05:54)
that kind of made sense because they saw a lot of the other dot coms collapse. It's like, what is the business model here? And when they realized that we're not just the product, our raw data is the product. Then they created a surveillance system because it was the viable business model. And then Facebook adopted it and ran with it. And then we're here.
Katie Smith (05:58)
Mm-hmm. Advertising.
Yeah.
Right.
Beth Rudden (06:16)
Talk a little bit about the Web2 hierarchical structures, because as we move into Web3, and I had the pleasure of meeting you at this lovely Web3 conference, learning about Web3, ⁓ DAOs, distributed autonomous organizations, why did the hierarchical structures break when forced into the
the real blockchain, which I want to say is like more of an organic ecosystem in the sense that the blockchain has that reciprocity. It has that authenticity. It has that traceability. It has that ability to, to, you know, be validated and have the basis for, you know, what, what was, what is
I want to say what is the dream of Web3 and why is that different than the Web2 hierarchical structures breaking? like, you know, that's isn't that sort of the ⁓ not necessarily the canary in the coal mine, but isn't that the herald of this new extractive culture breaking is because the hierarchical structures don't work when you actually have distributed autonomous organizations or distribution, which is another thing.
about Google, but.
Crystal (07:46)
Yeah, basically, I think the best way to look at it is Web 3 is taking us back to Web 1. And Web 1, you know, in the 80s and early 90s, that was really, you know, it was a combination of many different factors and organizations coming together, but it was a public good. So DARPA, the government,
Katie Smith (08:04)
Thanks
Crystal (08:06)
hackers, engineers, computer scientists, they kind of came together and built this thing and brought it to life. But it was structured as a public good. And I think the best example to look at that is the SMTP. That was the email protocol that was completely open, could send back and forth. I almost failed a college course because I refused to learn this thing called email in the early 90s. Because you had to go to the computer lab and go through, you know, Unix or whatever. like, I was an outdoor rec major. I'm like, no, not a thing.
Katie Smith (08:09)
Thank
I'm
Yeah.
Crystal (08:36)
So that taking that protocol, I think Microsoft was the first, I'm not exactly sure, but taking that and putting that behind a corporate paywall and making it part of the paid product set the precedent for transitioning from web one, which was open, public good, transparent. Everybody could see what everybody was doing in the code base that moved it into a corporate veil that we could no longer see or fully trust.
Beth Rudden (08:47)
Mm. That's right.
Katie Smith (08:50)
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (09:06)
how information was traveling around the internet because it was behind a paywall basically. And then that grew. And then it brought us amazing things. So we can't completely throw it all away. Web2 brought us ⁓ connectivity and ⁓ people were able to start businesses that couldn't have done that before. So it brought us all together. But then because so few people controlled how the information flowed back and forth and we lost that.
eyesight onto what was going on and then it shifted power into a handful of people. And those people, I mean, we can just watch the movies, you know, social network, pick your movie. Those people maybe shouldn't have been in charge of defining what friendship is or defining what community is or defining what any of our human layer is because at the end of the day, maybe they didn't have a full, they weren't mature enough for that.
Beth Rudden (09:40)
Yeah.
Crystal (10:03)
And I feel like with Web3, you know, some of us that were a part of this whole journey or came into the journey at some point want to take it back to its origin, which is open, transparent, community-based, and the community can regulate itself. When this technology is deployed properly.
It has its own control mechanisms built within it and that people can then govern themselves and decide their destiny together through a DAO or through a cooperative that runs this technology.
Beth Rudden (10:30)
Mm-hmm.
I think that a lot of people don't remember the early days of the internet and DARPAnet. you know, what I remember was this ability to, ⁓ like you said, that ability to SMTP and like just be able to send somebody a message that nobody had the wherewithal to, you know, create the protocols for, you know, mail to and then...
when you had all of that, why were we paying for that again? Why was that something that we have to pay a provider for to host our email? And I actually reminded a lot of people recently about this. There's a really great video about how Google backs up the internet. And that relates to a lot of the chat GPT URLs today, where those are getting indexed.
And you and I have had kind of like this sort of brief conversation where you're like, yeah, I stopped using chat GPT the minute I saw that Google was indexing the conversations that I made a link for that says, now this link is public and searchable. But I think that all of us were like, well, you know, only if they had the link, can they actually see this conversation.
Katie Smith (11:52)
I'm gonna turn it off.
Beth Rudden (12:00)
But in reality, that doesn't work that way because, and I'd love for you to like kind of draw that through with your lens on how that is like the antithesis of what we want with Web3, like totally the antithesis of what we want.
Crystal (12:18)
Yeah. I mean, when I saw that, I just deleted the whole account. was like, okay, you know, no. And I tend to do that. I get a little irrational sometimes. I'll just delete, delete, delete. And then like a month later, I'm like, oh, I kind of needed that thing. yeah. So, but I was, I was brought into the crypto web three world from privacy, InfoSec researchers and some of the top in the world. So they put a great deal of fear into my brain, which was already there.
Katie Smith (12:31)
I relate to this, yes.
Beth Rudden (12:31)
You
Crystal (12:47)
I just couldn't really, I didn't have the technical skill set or language to understand what privacy really was from that perspective. And when something like that happens with chat GBT, like I know better. know in using, like when I set up that account, it was set up on my burner email with some random names. So the account itself was set up that way, but I had used it.
for two and a half years almost. And it had a lot of information on me, not specific stuff, because there's a line, but it still knew me, which is creepy. So then when I saw that it was indexing, I was like, and I kind of knew it probably was anyway, but it was just another red flag reminder that I was being lazy with my personal OPSAC. And in Web3, we do everything.
Katie Smith (13:12)
Thank you.
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Crystal (13:32)
Pretty much everything is done publicly and transparently, but it's by design. So you know when you're engaging with that tech that there's a record of all my wallet transactions, of all of the things that I engage with, what I publish, who I support. That all exists, but that's by choice. So when I'm using technology that I know that that choice has been removed and obfuscated so I can't see what I'm choosing to do, then this is where goes back to that convenience conversation we were having earlier.
Beth Rudden (13:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Crystal (13:58)
You know,
how much am I going to give up for that convenience? And then I get lazy and then I see a new story like that. And then I'm like, delete, you know?
Beth Rudden (14:06)
Yeah,
it's it's I feel it all the time. I literally I've been talking to my 15 year old. So I have all this like resident. I literally like delete my Insta account bro, like at least two times, you know, it's so it's it's just it drives me crazy because I have to delete it because I will go into it and then I even have timers on it everything it's very
It is very extractive. I feel the extractiveness of my time and attention, which is the whole point. What I really like about your perspective on this and the perspective on like Web3 as ⁓ data sovereignty, Web3 as distributed organizations and distributed, you know, shareholder democracy in the sense that
all of the shareholders are voting because we've reduced the friction for everybody to be able to participate, participatory, ⁓ collective communities. And you and I have talked a little bit about hyperlocalism. And ⁓ I love connecting that back to what I do think is beginning, or as you said, maybe it's just a returning, where we're returning back to our hyper...
local systems, our bodies, our first ecosystem. And I think that that's something that I would love to kind of dig into more is like, what is beginning? And do you think of it as a returning just like you described Web3 is kind of returning back to the people centered internet of Web1?
Crystal (15:50)
I mean, that's actually one of the reasons I kind of got into the hyperlocal movement. ⁓ I work in the Ethereum ecosystem and there is a movement on the regenerative impact side for hyperlocalism. And as we continue to transition as a society and our systems, our old systems fall away.
We're going to have to turn to community and the local level to maintain our humanity. Basically, I want to go to the coffee shop and buy a coffee. So what am I going to do if the traditional monetary system is not working or the bank isn't working or your Square app dies or whatever, then you can whip out an alternative system. That's not me giving you seashells or rocks. mean, I could like trade in rocks, but that's not going to get me far.
So if I have an alternative currency that we have established on the hyper local level that this is a way we can exchange value, then we can continue doing the things like going to the farmers market and supporting local growers and producers and builders. And I feel like that is where, I feel like that's the direction we're going in. And then because it is all networked a certain way and decentralized, it can't be co-opted by a source of power.
Beth Rudden (16:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (17:01)
but it also can connect us globally. Like I know that there's a community in Ghana right now that is doing the same thing, using the same technology to have peer-to-peer value exchange. And that just gives me hope at the end of the day.
Beth Rudden (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely, because it can enable those who are seeking to be able to trade without having to subjugate themselves to banks that may or may not allow their money to be transferred from one place to another. I love what you're pointing to in the Global South and the ability for people to create.
new sources of income and exchange of goods and services in places where there is so much corruption that ⁓ there's not a way to trust some of the banks. So I want to go a little bit deeper and I want to talk a little bit about what did you witness when Web2 leadership really tried to force hierarchical structures onto
like the organic blockchain systems, like what happened? And you are, I think that ⁓ you have been in a position where you had to leave a job as a whistleblower. And so it's like, let's, I would love for you to share some of that or whatever you are comfortable with because it's very juicy.
Katie Smith (18:28)
And also a badass whistleblower. Yay, whistleblowers. Yay.
Beth Rudden (18:31)
Yes, yes.
Crystal (18:35)
Yeah, that's
not a title I really wanted. I'm like, I just kind of want to like see what this world is, but it's what's something I have a whole new respect and understanding for whistleblowers now. And from a privacy perspective, it just, now I get it like on a much, much deeper level.
Katie Smith (18:38)
But it's so brave and it's so important. Thank you.
Beth Rudden (18:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (18:52)
But for
web two to come, especially on the leadership level to come into web three, they need to have an open mind and be fluid and flexible in their leadership style. It cannot be that top-down leadership style and that dominant masculine energy that really does fracture the systems that we're all living in now because that toxic masculinity is just allowed to run rampant.
Beth Rudden (19:15)
You know, it reminds me of ⁓ there was like a distinct point at IBM and this was like before COVID where ⁓ there was many, there were many leaders who were starting their town halls off with like a moment of silence and mindfulness and meditation. And there was like a before that and an after that. And it really was like a, I often
talked to my friend Adam Cutler about this, who will be on the show. And he really introduced this idea and this language of design. And in the language of design that they have created, the design language, they taught many of the executives that circular model of understanding how to approach things with an open mind, an abundance mindset, a...
a way to model that point. And it was never, you could never fit the hierarchy back into that. It just wouldn't work because the people who have experienced that and have experienced that type of really respectful leadership, that is...
Katie Smith (20:35)
This is one of the most moments where we edit. ⁓ Although the dogs are fun.
Beth Rudden (20:38)
Happy!
The dogs are fun. Yeah. But I think that, you know, that's yeah, a lot of people see that. I just never would have I never would have had the vocabulary prior to really talking to you about it. That is like that was Web 2. And like, so you can't take Web 2 governance structure and try to fit it to Web 3. just doesn't work because human beings are like, no, no, no, I actually like.
Crystal (20:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Beth Rudden (21:10)
to be part of the decision-making process, make it more accessible to me. How do I need to receive this information so that I can participate in this community? And that, I think, is so back to like Meilin Feng and Vint Cerf and the people-centered internet. That was the beginning of the internet where teachers were
They had the dream of being involved in this internet idea and they wanted their own internet protocol or their own IP address. They wanted that so badly that they were going against their countries, against their governments in order to belong. And that was Web 1 that was very distributed, very global, very... ⁓
part of the university aspect where you had to go into the universities and talk to the university lab guys and figure out how to deal with all of the things. I loved that perspective and I love talking about that perspective, Crystal, because I don't think that a lot of people have it. They think that crypto is bad. It's all where the dark web forms and all of these things.
but it's actually a very different system. And talk about the basement.
Crystal (22:39)
I was just getting ready to say that too. You were like led right into that. ⁓ So I'm a founding member of a journalism DAO called Journal DAO. And it's just a handful of us crusty Gen Xers that were journalists and are trying to help, I don't know, save journalism, not really a thing, but revive it somehow through decentralization. And one of our, the actual founder, he made the comment a few years ago that basically we're trying to save the world from the basement of a casino. And it's very true.
Because I mean, really the best use case for crypto is still money laundering. That's not hidden. ⁓ So it's got all this stuff on top. It's just garbage, noise, casinos. I mean, it is what it is. And then underneath, there are people that are building the infrastructure for when this thing collapsed that can stand up almost immediately because we're experimenting in real time with it. And I'm hoping that that distraction up here keeps the centralized powers distracted long enough.
Beth Rudden (23:29)
That's right.
Crystal (23:36)
for us to keep building that infrastructure and testing it underneath so we have it when we need it. And I feel hopefully we never need it, but maybe we will, probably will. So, you know.
Katie Smith (23:48)
You
know, one of the things we're doing at Humma is, ⁓ and we want to decentralize the social network. You know, there's a point where as soon as there's consent, it has to be proprietary. It has to be secure because we're, you know, responsible for data at that point. Although we do not take anyone's data or sell anyone's data. It's in our bylaws. You can't sell us for parts like 23andMe. But ⁓ this idea that there's this decentralized component, right?
We want people to have the tools that they need to develop communities for them, right? And so I don't want to dictate for somebody what their community looks like. I want it to be something that they can imagine it, right? And within that community, there will be e-commerce. And so I love the idea of blockchain. In fact, that was like part of the original strategy until almost every single bank was like, we will not give you an account, right? After Silicon Valley Bank failed, right? I think that was the catalyst for all this.
And, you know, they won't let you bank with them. So we'd literally had to change part of our strategy because of the banking component. Although I think that's going to be resolved in this new US policy where there are no regulations anymore, good, bad, or indifferent. So I'm now going back to that and thinking, okay, well, we know, we always knew we wanted to be decentralized. We're like on the record, it's on our website. We want to be decentralized. And so I'm curious, like,
Where would you point us? What would be the first thing that you would say to a company like ours or a different company? What would be your consultation in terms of like, okay, your first step in Web3 is?
Crystal (25:29)
Your why, because a lot of people try to jam blockchain into something where it shouldn't be. So your why is a very good one. So is it, you know, decentralized identity? Is it decentralized community building? Is it going to eventually be a decentralized currency? Do you need that? Do you just need decentralized governance? Those are, you know, kind of the main pillars there.
Katie Smith (25:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah, I mean, part of what we want is and again, like in my career is so funny because I started at like Frontier Natural Products Co-op great company. You can still get them at your local mom and pop like, ⁓ you know, health food store. ⁓
I was deeply informed by that experience with them because it was a co-op. So we're basically forming our business, even though we're not legally a co-op because it doesn't make sense for our company and our products, we're sort of functioning like one. So I like this idea that the decentralized component is not just the ability to take a software developer kit and go off and do fun things. And I don't even know if that's the right language. I'm using language that I would understand, but also that there is this ability
the community to govern itself and communicate and decide together where do we want this to go, right? So it's like, it's both individualistic with Beth and I were talking about in the last episode, you know, in terms of like people can think about what's best for them, but it's also a team sport. Like you are doing this in collaboration with this decentralized community. yeah. What, okay. So after why, what do we do?
Beth Rudden (26:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (27:03)
you begin experimenting. So in that scenario you just described, I would start with governance because you've got a collective of people that already know how to interact with each other and then distribute of like an NFT or like just a token that everybody can has that has no monetary value whatsoever. And that's their voting mechanism. And then you figure out your way to propose something. And then let's say you've got a group treasury that everybody tossed $5 into.
Katie Smith (27:21)
Mmm. Mmm.
Crystal (27:31)
And then that treasury is managed by a handful of your leadership. So four to five people. So you can kind of make that, you can bring a quorum. And then let's say you want to donate something to a local food bank. So then your group decides, puts together the proposal, puts it on a forum where everybody can debate back and forth about the pros and cons of the forum, or you can do it in person. And then hold the vote.
Katie Smith (27:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (27:58)
And since the vote is done through a smart contract with your token, if it's a yes and the proposal passes, it immediately transfers to the food bank, the funds, whatever you've decided. And that's enforceable by smart contract. There's no human involved.
Beth Rudden (27:58)
You
Katie Smith (28:09)
Yeah.
So all of our lawyers
are saying stay away from smart contracts. What is the stigma with smart contracts right now? Our lawyers are like, just stay away from it. Don't touch it.
Beth Rudden (28:21)
man does not understand something his salary depends on him not understanding.
Crystal (28:28)
Yeah, yeah, most lawyers will push back. ⁓ yeah. Yeah.
Katie Smith (28:29)
There. Really? That's good information though, isn't it?
Beth Rudden (28:30)
Yeah
yes.
Well, there's actually we we had for land rights because we had to have that level of traceability in order to say this was, like there are good reasons for blockchain and there are not good reasons for blockchain and, you know, smart contracts.
Crystal, I would love your viewpoint on this. My viewpoint is that this is already here. Hospitals use smart contracts quite a bit too.
Crystal (29:12)
Yeah, supply chain. mean, there's great reasons to use smart contracts for supply chain issues too. And I mean, really part of the legal pushback and I come from my family's lawyers. So my siblings, my sibling, brother-in-law.
Beth Rudden (29:13)
Yep.
Katie Smith (29:25)
Yeah, help
us understand this. What's going on? Besides, it's going to put them out of work.
Crystal (29:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
So I guess one reason to not use a smart contract is because it's enforceable by code. So once it's initiated, you ain't getting that back. ⁓ But that's where the governance comes in. The group has decided that they're going to do that thing. And then if it's enforceable by smart contract, the smart contract deploys it. So it removes the middleman, which would be the lawyer. So that's really it. No.
Katie Smith (29:51)
Okay, okay. And it doesn't slow
things DOA. doesn't like, there's not like a bog on the servers. There's not like, it could be what, what other reason could there be anything?
Beth Rudden (29:58)
Is it? No.
Crystal (30:04)
So it depends, this might get too detailed for this conversation. So this could be a to be continued, but it gets messy on the treasury side. So if you've got people managing a group treasury, which there's great tech, the tech is locked DOA, it's very hard to hack. But then it also is transferring over to a nonprofit, let's say, our food bank as the example, and they're also managing their own wallet. If there's a disconnect on either end, mostly it would probably happen on the food bank side.
Beth Rudden (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (30:33)
then they're not going to be able to retrieve funds or anything. There's no one you can call if you screw up your wallet, basically. If you lose access to your wallet, you're done. ⁓ There's ways to protect.
Katie Smith (30:39)
Yeah, right.
Okay, and there might
be legal ramifications for that if it was like, you know, a large community that was having to manage that.
Crystal (30:50)
It would depend
on the community bylaws, what the structure is. But there's also a lot of ⁓ legal doubts that are very good that can help you navigate that. And lawyers specialize in this.
Katie Smith (30:52)
Yeah, it just complicates things. I see.
Beth Rudden (30:59)
Mm-hmm.
Can you talk about ⁓ setting up journal DAO, setting up a DAO and, know, Katie, your timing is wonderful. Crystal gives advice to people like you just spent two hours talking to a community church member who wants to set up their own version. so, Katie, I know Crystal was primed. She was like, you do this first and then this and then this and then this. Yeah, this is it's it's amazing. And so many people.
Crystal (31:28)
and that's where that scenario just came from.
Beth Rudden (31:33)
I think have forgotten that we were allowed. We're allowed to build our own businesses. We're allowed to exchange our own goods and services for a currency of our choice. We're allowed to do this. We have freedom.
Crystal (31:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Beth Rudden (31:53)
I really just I wanted to kind of go back to like the reasons why Web3 and the reasons why people may want to use their own currency and the reasons why people might want to use the Stamart contract don't it all points back to governance and being able to have a effective representation or
all of the DOA like how did you start Journal Dow? What was the process there? What was the impetus? Can you talk about the origin story a little bit? And by the way, listeners, ⁓ Crystal is also a bad-ass photojournalist and like many different careers, obviously, in addition to Whistleblower. Not a great title, but. ⁓
Katie Smith (32:41)
Thank
Crystal (32:43)
Yeah. My career
trajectory has been me trying to outrun my industries collapsing. So that actually is, that's really it. You boil it out.
Beth Rudden (32:48)
Harbringer.
Katie Smith (32:49)
⁓ man.
I so relate to that in so many ways. We should talk offline about that story. We need to have like the six hour conversation about blockchain and just have wine and like, you know, the hot chicken wings or something, just like go for it.
Crystal (32:55)
Yeah. Totally.
Beth Rudden (32:57)
Ha ha!
Crystal (33:02)
Yes.
Beth Rudden (33:02)
Yes.
Crystal (33:06)
It's blockchain
and bourbon, I think it's a thing. Yeah, so JournalDow. ⁓ I joined JournalDow about a year into their genesis. And it was started by Eric Mack, who was ⁓ former NPR broadcast journalist, ⁓ also long career with CNET, Forbes, science writer. So he got curious about... ⁓
Katie Smith (33:09)
Let's do it.
Beth Rudden (33:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Crystal (33:34)
crypto itself and Web3 and what all of this stuff was. So it went DOA the rabbit hole and started this Dow. I think he just did a talk at, started a few months before, but then did a talk at the Keith Dunbar conference. And Keith, our other co-founder was in the audience listening to that. I'm so bummed I missed it. I was there, but I didn't see it on the schedule. you know, could have joined earlier, but Keith joined up and basically the original meme, the original premise was to try and buy a newspaper and decentralize it.
Beth Rudden (33:46)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (34:02)
Hmm
Crystal (34:02)
is you can scoop
up a small local paper for a few thousand dollars at this point and figure out a way to find a holistic, circular, decentralized economic infrastructure and also publishing infrastructure because you can publish everything decentralized. So we were trying to figure this out and we're still kind of trying to figure that out but it's evolved over the years. ⁓ I joined about six months after that talk.
Katie Smith (34:16)
that's really cool.
Beth Rudden (34:16)
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (34:28)
And I was trying to figure out if I was going to stay in tech. Every few years I'm like, why am I still here? Especially in web three. It's like in this world, I'm like, why? So I was, I just got my yoga certification. I was like, all right, why am I still doing this? And then I was on Twitter and I saw a posting from Eric about journal DOA I was like, okay, this is interesting. So I applied and then he forgot, he just forgot to check the applications. It's just a thing. And then a few weeks later, like, Hey, you're in. I'm like, that's weird.
So I went to their town hall and it was actually the core that's there now is just us. And there's five of us or four at the time, five now, and they were having questions about NFTs and I just come from working at an NFT protocol. So I could actually answer the questions on a very technical granular level. And I was like, wait, I have something to contribute here. So I just kind of started helping with some stuff, newsletters or whatever. And then we kind of were more organized back then.
Beth Rudden (35:18)
Yeah.
Crystal (35:24)
And we never got fully into governance from like the technical perspective. We tried to launch our token. We did launch a token, we an NFT token that we launched, which was hilarious and had a few founding supporters. And after that, we just didn't bother with governance because there's just four of us and then five. So we kind of run it like the mafia, which I actually think is a much more effective way to run a small organization is family rules.
Beth Rudden (35:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Crystal (35:51)
So
we are very tight, very close knit, and it is like a family. And so if somebody, we just kind of vote by emoji if we need to take a vote. But as you get into bigger dials, I've also been a part of much larger dials. And then you get into structures where you need to have governance, you have layers of governance, you have active delegates who are putting proposals forward, voting on them, making sure the treasury is intact, making sure that it's growing, making sure the movement is coming together and that you're moving towards the mission that you're in.
Katie Smith (35:58)
Hahaha
Beth Rudden (35:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And ⁓ do you find that this generation that's coming up, the Gen Z, Gen Alphas, is this like in lieu of civics classes? is this, you know, are these people, are people like not learning some of the governance of our own government? Or they want to participate? Like, I think I'm like, it's so surreal that it's very cool that this is
This is, it's not only a whole part of a subject culture, but you have, I mean, you have appropriated all of these terminologies like "meme", that, you know, 1975 Dawkins would be rolling in his grave, but that makes so much more sense to think about these distributed autonomous organizations.
and the basement building and having your own currency and then also being very interested in how governance works and then hearing that story of how you're like, yeah, there's four of us. We don't need a lot of governance. It's just, it's very, very cool and very inspiring in some ways because you can't do this easily in other countries.
Crystal (37:41)
Yeah, that's actually a really good point. You can't. ⁓ And I do think that the younger generation probably did miss that civics education. Our Gen Zs are really, especially the ones that specialize in governance on the Regen movement impact side, they are very, very steeped, almost to a fault. I think it's amazing. But sometimes they're so steeped in the language of governance, they forget to step back and look at the whole picture, which I think is why you need co-generational groups.
Beth Rudden (37:50)
Yeah.
Crystal (38:09)
So you need the Gen Xs in the mix because that Gen Z energy is so amazing. And the way they view governance is very different. And I think you need both because they tend to balance each other out. And I think with Jern Odell, we've seen that over time where one of our, our one ⁓ Gen Z member, he's, he's an old soul, but, he is so steep in governance. mean, his ability to understand governance. Like when we all first met, when I first met him for the first time and a few of the other ones ⁓ in person, we were at East Denver.
Katie Smith (38:10)
Definitely.
Beth Rudden (38:16)
Yeah.
Crystal (38:38)
at a Gitcoin public goods conference. So we were sitting there and the talker was, the speech was okay, but it was kind of boring. And I looked behind me and Spencer's got a hardback book and he's got his little handlebar mustache and he's reading Machiavelli. I'm like, what is happening over here? It was the most amazing thing. And that's just the way he's wired. He's trying to understand all of these different political structures so he can both understand the world he's in now.
Beth Rudden (38:40)
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (39:07)
but then apply them to the world that we're moving into. So it's that younger generation that really understands governance. Another really good one is Open Civics. ⁓ once these systems do begin to collapse on themselves, these scholars who are studying this and outside of an academic container, they are not studying this and most of them don't believe in academic institutions.
Katie Smith (39:10)
Wow.
Crystal (39:30)
⁓ they are going to be the ones that can help lead that charge, but they do need that co-generational anchor.
Beth Rudden (39:38)
Yeah, I love having a vertical and horizontal stratified team. And that vertical stratification has to include lots of people, especially from the younger generation, who have very different viewpoints on this. I see this a lot in AI ethics too, where the people who are interested in governance and AI ethics are often much younger.
than I would have guessed. And it's interesting because it was that, I'm like, where are the civics classes and where is that participatory kind of systems? And it's being systematically erased from, I think a lot of the educational facilities that are public institutions as far as public education.
Crystal (40:31)
nor do they want to participate in such a corrupt system. Like I look at a lot of agencies that I mentor like at Naropa outside of tech and they don't want to vote. They don't want to participate in the lesser of two equals.
Beth Rudden (40:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (40:40)
Yeah,
Beth Rudden (40:40)
That's right.
Katie Smith (40:41)
so I wanted to ask about that. So I think one of the biggest issues we have as a country, and many countries have this, is that we just have low voter participation. And I think that has a lot to do with people thinking their vote doesn't matter or in the future or starting now, or maybe even just in the last election, we're not sure if our vote was counted correctly. is the...
Beth Rudden (41:04)
or at all.
Crystal (41:06)
Yeah.
Katie Smith (41:08)
So are there ⁓ folks, and I really don't know, are there folks that are using your lens to advocate, how do we create a new way to vote? the, I, yeah, tell me about that. I'm so interested in that.
Crystal (41:25)
Yes, there's definitely ⁓ a group that, they're not like a clear group or anything. Like I couldn't say go to this website and see this group, but there are definitely, ⁓ I hate the word thought leaders, but leading minds in these industries that are pushing for democracy, a democracy like ours to vote on chain. Totally.
Katie Smith (41:32)
Mm.
Sure. Okay.
Beth Rudden (41:43)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (41:44)
I want a record, want a printout, I want to see
it on the website, I want it to match. ⁓
Beth Rudden (41:48)
Well,
that's what the blockchain gives you, right? And that's why there is an alternative to the way we vote today. It's not enough people know how to use it.
Katie Smith (41:53)
Yeah.
Well, there's so many crypto good boys in government right now that I'm like, can we just give them one thing to do that actually would serve all of us? It would be like fix voting and give us all receipts, you know?
Crystal (42:03)
Yes, that's the problem.
Yeah, but that goes against their mandates for their, whatever their techno-feudalism vision that they're building.
Katie Smith (42:23)
Tell me about that techno feudalism.
What does that mean for you?
Crystal (42:28)
Basically,
the TLDRs, we all turn into serfs. And there's eight broil of arcs at the top that control all the mechanisms of the economy, basically. so, yeah. So the rest of us are forced to at some point, depends on how dark you want to get, make this analogy, but at some point we all have to participate in a system to keep the lights on and to keep food on the table.
Katie Smith (42:40)
The Magnificent Seven.
Crystal (42:53)
And so then you end up in a situation where most people are facing a serfdom of some sort, where, you know, we're not doing work that fulfills us. We're doing work that fills the bottom line for that magnificent seven. And that is, if you get into Peter Thiel's ideology and some of these other tech flows at the top with the power, that is, they don't, I mean, I think Peter Thiel recently said on, didn't have an answer as to whether or not we need humans anymore.
Beth Rudden (42:59)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (43:07)
Mm-hmm.
Very much so.
Yeah, he really struggled to answer that with the New York Times podcast. Yeah. No, thank you for underscoring that. I just want to make it super clear what we're talking about. So thank you for that.
Crystal (43:21)
Reasonably. On GitHub. Yeah. Yes.
Sure. And I do think that eventually we could have a very safe system that uses a blockchain for voting at the national level. It does take an option and it would take
Katie Smith (43:41)
We need it.
Crystal (43:45)
a government that wants its vote to be authentic and transparent. And that is really where we're at. I mean, we could kick it back to labor in the late 1800s and early 1900s where, you you trying to obfuscate the actual vote itself because somebody's bought this person, they bought that person, so they get this through and that through and, you know, blockchain doesn't help them with their agendas at that point, you know.
Katie Smith (43:50)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (43:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (44:07)
Well, one of the things like Beth and I said early on when we started this podcast is like, we hope people take ideas from this podcast. So you listener viewer, take this idea advocate for this. We need this almost more than anything. mean, when you see what's happening with gerrymandering right now, like it's just like, that's a good use for AI. This is like, there are good uses for crypto and blockchain. There are good uses for AI. it's like, and it's like, no, it's not to strip. It's not doge.
Beth Rudden (44:30)
Ahem.
Katie Smith (44:37)
Like what impact are they really having? It's so ridiculous. But that could have real impact, couldn't it?
Crystal (44:43)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (44:44)
So I want to totally do a shout out for my friend who has created Metapole, which is a way to be able to truly collect ⁓ many, many people's understanding of what they would like and then be able to roll that up ⁓ all on the blockchain, all using Verkultrees and lots and lots of different technology in order to make that very transparent.
and we can put a link there. ⁓ And Andrew was the one who actually showed me how many people are actually voting and running some of these DAOs that are 20, 30, $40 billion. And it's like 12 of the same user IDs. So they could or could not be actual human beings. They could be conglomerates. They could be lots of different things underneath, but that's terrifying.
And so like for the the Dows to be ⁓ I think resident in their own name and own identity, they have to have that. They have to reduce the friction so that more people could vote. Yep.
Katie Smith (45:53)
It
always comes DOA to voting, in my opinion.
Beth Rudden (45:58)
And transparencies. And for the record, thought, Katie, we wanted Elon and Doge to give every taxpayer a receipt on where all of our tax money goes specifically. I think that that level of transparency is exactly what Web3 is about. It's like you put your money in here and then those dollars were spent there. I want to know where my tax dollars are going.
I want to know what it's buying our government and how our government is building roads and things that are important to me and my community. That's a great use of this technology. want to switch a little bit here, Crystal. You are looking for a job. by the way, like,
yoga teacher, journalist, photojournalist, ⁓ complete translator of crypto bro web three understanding. It is so valuable and it's so important that we start using the same language because we can't change an ecosystem unless we can be part of it. How is your Gen X self loving the job search right now?
Katie Smith (46:59)
That's valuable. That is valuable, folks.
Crystal (47:18)
God, if I could jump out the window right now, I would like onto a sharp spike. So it's, it's fascinating. I mean, right. So my yoga practice, ⁓ is classical Tantra. And at the premise, one of the core premises is transmuting energy and taking negative energy and transmuting it into something else.
Katie Smith (47:27)
rough time.
Beth Rudden (47:28)
Yeah.
Crystal (47:41)
And so I have to constantly remind myself that I am transmuting the bullshit into beauty and just part, just, going through the job search right now and the interview process and the chaos that that is, I'm getting a front row seat into the economic structure that we're all in right now. And also of our generation, ⁓ you know, the different issues of being Gen X and all of it. So it's, it's same with the reason I entered corporate. I mean, that gave me a front row seat.
I couldn't understand why yoga was, I mean, know why yoga is so necessary, but why are so many people coming at scale to yoga studios and wellness in general? What is it like to your nervous system to work in corporate? And so the job search is also the same.
I mean, every day is like this constant bouncing roller coaster between, I got it today or yay, I've got hope to holy shit, are you fucking kidding me right now? And just like, should just, I even looked at like local coffee shops to go manage a coffee shop, because I spend so much time in them. And even a manager job would not cover my rent. And I'm like, how in the world are we supposed to function if the labor force is under such a
is so oppressed that there's no breathing room for someone to take a day off or to make a choice that at the end of the day, you know, would impact their income. think that that is, it's fascinating to go through this process right now, honestly. I, ⁓ yeah.
Beth Rudden (49:10)
And you are the harbinger of
⁓ all of this. Honestly, I think that thank you for sharing the job search and the labor reality of being involved in a lot of the corporations. There are so many corporations, I think, that are struggling to not only just stay alive, but to change. And you can help them, especially
Because some of these like unit economics, don't know that a lot of corporate, you know, I don't know a lot of companies that actually have that knowledge as well as like what they could do to survive without government funding or with, you know, with actually building that really good understanding of here's my good exchange for goods and services, et cetera. Not to mention about the fact that, you you
Katie Smith (49:56)
Thank
Beth Rudden (50:10)
you are obviously somebody who wears and embodies their own ethics. And that trust ability, that is so worth gold. Because right now there's so many people that we can't trust. And it seems to be okay, but it's not. It's not okay for people to not do what they say and not embody who they are without.
Katie Smith (50:20)
God is.
Beth Rudden (50:37)
understanding that somatic kind of impact. I loved when you were talking about like all of your work with yoga really helped you survive the toxic work cultures.
Crystal (50:48)
Yeah. And all I could think about, not all, but you know, a dominant thought was that I have a thousand academic hours in yoga, 500 RIT certification. That's a lot of yoga. And all of that was basically, how do you regulate your nervous system? All right. Okay. And even with all of that knowledge, I still broke my nervous system. And so it was like getting an it was like getting a master's degree in what I had just got an undergrad degree in. And I have that skill set.
Beth Rudden (51:09)
you
Yeah.
Crystal (51:17)
But think
of all of the other people. I mean, that's a very rare skill set. No one says, I'm going to go spend this money and get a degree in this thing. Like, that's just not a thing. It's a handful of us.
Beth Rudden (51:24)
Well, there's a whole
university that you can do that at.
Crystal (51:28)
Yeah, which is also bizarre. like, okay, that's a thing. Cool. Let me go see what that looks like.
Beth Rudden (51:31)
What is it?
Katie Smith (51:32)
No, but
you're speaking to what's happening in society and there's this trend that we're starting to see with the jobs report. talked about this.
there is not just the silent quitting, but there's like the silent, like suffering that is happening right now with so many Gen Xers, you know, that are looking for jobs and, and, know, who's the first to get cut right now, right now it's Gen X. And so, yeah, no, it, and talk about impacts on your nervous system. That just cuts straight DOA to the bottom of Maslow's triangle, right? Like it's just like,
Beth Rudden (51:51)
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (51:59)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (52:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (52:09)
survival. You're right. So like, no, I feel for you. And I think there's so many people going through this and it's just going to get worse. So there does need to be some leadership around this. And we do need to get creative of like, we can't have the jobs that we've had in the past. Like I've reinvented myself over and over and over again, because I had to, because I've been in tech, right? Because if you've been in tech since the nineties, by default, you're reinventing yourself all the time.
Beth Rudden (52:17)
Mm-hmm.
Crystal (52:31)
Yes.
Katie Smith (52:37)
And I just invite like Gen X to reinvent. And maybe what you're saying is like the reinvention or the pathway, you're, you think it's like web three and you are offering leadership around this vision of web three.
Crystal (52:53)
think that's one of the pathways. I feel like one of the problems with, I don't say problem, but one of the hindrances for Gen X is that we were just raised different. We were raised to take care of yourself. Like I started working at 15, not because I had to, my dad was. Yeah.
Katie Smith (52:54)
Mmm.
Beth Rudden (52:55)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (53:10)
11 swap me.
Crystal (53:13)
Yeah. So I was
like, I want to make my own money because I don't want to get an allowance. That's annoying. I don't want to have to like account for that. Let me just go make money. So we've always had this resilience and we know how to go pivot and make money. And, know, up to my corporate adventure, I was a small business owner. So I would just pivot with whatever the market needed, basically. And I think one of the things now, part of it is Gen X not being able to admit that they're in this blind and that it's also age related. And also.
Beth Rudden (53:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Crystal (53:42)
It's, I mean, I think this, that, that reinvention that we've lost part of that skillset, like how do we keep reinventing ourselves? But what is also under the hood of that is that in this economy, the ways we could reinvent ourselves are kind of gone. There are no bridge jobs. I used to bartend. I bartended for well over a decade. Love restaurant work. I could always, I knew whatever risks I took as a business owner, my ass could be at the bar.
Katie Smith (53:51)
We have to keep doing it.
Crystal (54:10)
After hours, making my cash. So that was always my backup. And a lot of that is gone now. And I think that is one of the more terrifying things of being in this job search now is that the safety nets are gone. And also on the societal level, those safety nets are being deliberately destroyed. So you have to hold all of these different realities. And at some point, all of those realities start to just bounce against each other and it gets very, very difficult.
Beth Rudden (54:13)
you
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (54:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Crystal (54:37)
to continue doing that for any duration of time, honestly.
Beth Rudden (54:42)
Yeah, I think that ⁓ one of the studies I did mainly because I was told not to do it or I was told to do the opposite. ⁓ instead of studying attrition, I studied why people stayed in large organizations. And the result was really what people know now is that people are staying for physical safety, for health care, for ⁓ being able to have insurance.
And it's not that there aren't those bar jobs. It's just that they can't offer the level of pay and the level of safety that you need in order to raise a family or in order to have insurance, in order to be a good citizen and, you know, contributing member of your community. And I think that that's where the communities and that hyper localism, in addition to a lot of the other
know, potential alternative ways like Web3, like a different currency, like a different economy, a different economic system, it can start to at least we can start these experiments in these hyperlocal places. ⁓ Absolutely wonderful, Crystal. And I would tell anybody who is looking for somebody who wants
who needs to understand what everybody else is trying to tell them, but doesn't have the words or doesn't have the values or doesn't have the right language, hire Crystal. Yeah, you're a bridge.
Katie Smith (56:18)
You're a bridge. You are a bridge.
What I just saw in this podcast is like, you are more than capable of being a bridge. And there's a lot of people who could use that service right now. I know we could. So maybe I'm going to reach out to you after this podcast.
Crystal (56:32)
Yeah, mean, bridges are everything right now. And I do think that it's fascinating to be on the inside of this labor movement right now, looking at labor from this perspective, because I do think that and historically, you know, the reasons we got change in the late 1800s, early 1900s was the labor movement at some point, break. And we are very close to that breaking point right now. And people will find a general strike or to protest and resist.
Beth Rudden (56:51)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (56:51)
yeah.
I agree.
Crystal (56:59)
It'll be harder, but it will be more impactful because at some point laborers just be like, we're done. And then there's no one to make the widgets.
Katie Smith (57:06)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (57:08)
Yeah, well, ⁓ hopefully company owners will not be able to call in the National Guard. Yes.
Crystal (57:14)
Right? That's form.
Katie Smith (57:17)
You know, it's going to
get exponentially different and wild in ways we can't even imagine. So Crystal, tell us, tell folks where they can find you. Tell us, know, tell us everything you want folks to know as we wrap up and don't feel like go for it. Yeah. Don't hold back.
Crystal (57:22)
Yes.
⁓ I didn't even think about that. So
yeah, I guess the way to find me, ⁓ well, the Twitter's, but that's not a healthy place to go. Crystal D is in Dawn Street. And then I'm also on LinkedIn. So just same name. I also have a podcast called The Human Layer. So humanlayer.xyz, my cohost and I, Taylor. ⁓ We look at issues of emergent tech and society. So a lot of the stuff we're talking about.
⁓ I'd say that's probably the easiest places to find me. Yeah.
Katie Smith (58:03)
Fantastic. Thank
you so much for taking the time today. I think we're going to have another follow-up conversation for sure.
Crystal (58:09)
Yes, definitely. Thank you all so much for having me. This is so lovely. I appreciate
Katie Smith (58:35)
episode was brought to you by Humma.ai. We're a California benefit corporation that is creating empathetic AI made by and for community.
Beth Rudden (58:44)
This episode was brought to you by Bast.ai, where we're creating the trust layer for all of our infrastructure needs. If you want to, please like, subscribe, restack, do all the things we would love to hear from you. Thank you so much.
Katie Smith (58:59)
Your subscribe really makes a difference. Thank you so much. Bye.
Beth Rudden (59:02)
Bye.