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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
As a leader, when I'm thinking about those people who report to me in order to want to really have those ongoing But if I'm if I really get to a point where I genuinely care for the people that are working for me, I'm far more likely to dive into those conversations and to want to retain them and to want to create a culture where those people who I'm spending every day with really thrive.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative. Bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow, rate, and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcast.
Mike Coffey:You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at good morning hr.com. The end of July means it's time for our monthly wrap up of news items related to HR. And to do that, I'm joined again by Ashley Smalley. Ashley is the founder of Smalley Consulting. She's a certified human resources professional, a trusted consultant, and an adept facilitator in the workplace culture sphere.
Mike Coffey:Ashley's passion is for people to enjoy their work because they enjoy the people with whom they work, and she accomplishes this through tailored leadership and people development strategies. Welcome back to Good Morning HR, Ashley.
Ashley Smalley:Oh, Mike. Thanks so much for having me. I've, it's been too long. I think it's been
Mike Coffey:a a year
Ashley Smalley:and a half.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. It's like a 102 episodes, actually. So it's been it's been a while. You were number 60, and I think this is 160 1 58 or something.
Ashley Smalley:So That's awesome.
Mike Coffey:It's crazy.
Ashley Smalley:That's awesome. You're busy. I love it.
Mike Coffey:It's good. Anna, you've been busy too. You've been on the conference circuit. I've seen you at a lot of events. We crossed paths.
Ashley Smalley:I know. So I love it every time. I always it's always good for a laugh every time our paths cross. I may I may or may not learn anything, but I'm always hello.
Mike Coffey:Always laugh. I promise you'll learn something, but if you're you know, I'm happy people just laugh.
Ashley Smalley:Me too.
Mike Coffey:So it's a really it's been a busy month and and and new stuff for July, but a lot of it's been more related to employee engagement and all of that. So kind of the that's kind of the trend of the articles we pulled. Gallup started, well, started out with a Gallup survey. They did a a their global survey about employee engagement, which was interesting and alarming in some respects, but what I was surprised because I hadn't heard this fact before is that women are have higher engagement than men in the workplace, which sounds good until you get to the senior leadership level and then they're at the same basically 45% for women, 46% for men at senior leadership, but that's I guess the thing that's most alarming to me is not that you know women lost their gap all you know when they get up to senior leadership, it's that fewer than half of senior leaders are engaged. I mean, I think that's the bigger bigger thing in the Gallup the article from Gallup that I was reading about this piece of the survey was really focused on how they can get these women more engaged, which I think when you talk about how do we get the whole organization engaged.
Mike Coffey:Right? I mean, if if half our senior leaderships and then everybody else was in the thirties. I mean, male or female, were down there, project managers, managers, individual contributors were all at a lot lower level. And I know you you you talk to businesses and and leaders about this a lot. What's your take on the survey?
Ashley Smalley:Well, at first, I was trying to understand exactly, exactly what they were getting at with the article and and kind of were they were they trying to tell a story? Because it kinda made it sound like all of a sudden, men were much more engaged. And then you look at the actual at the senior level, it's equal. But I think looking at the percentages of just how little engagement I'm I'm shocked. I'm shocked.
Ashley Smalley:And I I'm probably I should know what is specifically driving that, but I really just kept looking at it going, It's really low. It is really low, alarmingly low. And what what's driving that?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And I, you know, I think there's a lot to unpack inside of engagement numbers in in general, and I'm not sure that our expectations of employees are right at the level I mean, you know, if the idea and I think the way Gallup primarily, I should have pulled that quote, but the way Gallup defines it is that it's something along the lines of I enjoy the the work that I do, I enjoy the people I work with, and the work I do is important, those kind of things. And I think it's not unreasonable to have some percentage of your to just expect that some percent of the of the working population is going to be, I want to come to work do my job go home and be with my family and or my dogs or my 50 cats whatever, and not have all those you know and so you know there's some percentage of it but but you can see as they go higher and what I thought was you know is individual contributors, women are at 35 and men were at 30, managers 37 and 29 for men. So men actually went down when they become managers.
Mike Coffey:I can feel that pain, but then project managers start but as you move up in the organization, people generally rise up in engagement, but still it's below 50% of senior leaders.
Ashley Smalley:Yeah. Well, and I I've had jobs and I'm sure you have to where maybe I didn't love the work I was doing, but I took pride in the work I was doing. I was in, I was still engaged. I was still trying to give 100% and so maybe by the definition that they use, maybe that kind of skews those numbers a little bit. But, yeah, the idea that at the very highest level in an organization, we've got less than half the people who are really excited to be doing what they're doing.
Ashley Smalley:Maybe that reflects in the engagement number of the workforce as a whole. If you've got leaders who are just kind of phoning it in, that would that would make some sense to me then why at an individual contributor level, well, shoot, if my boss is he doesn't care, then I don't care either.
Mike Coffey:And I think a lot of it boils down to leadership communication, and I know that's an area you work a lot in. But, yeah, if people don't feel connected to their boss or don't think that, you know, that, you know, to their boss, they're nothing more than a means to an end to get this work done, which I mean, if we're being completely honest, I mean that's what the company the company is not here to hire people to make people feel good, but I think we as employers need to pay attention to the fact that it's really expensive to onboard and train and exit employees on a continual basis, and it's not that expensive to make them feel hard to give them feedback, you know, positive feedback and constructive feedback and to do the things that people need to do to to feel like they're appreciated.
Ashley Smalley:Well, one of the other articles you sent from Gallup was talking about how do we get people engaged, you know, what are the things that they that they feel like they're missing out on? And it was just that. It was real conversations with their managers. It was real checkpoints. It was real time feedback.
Ashley Smalley:And it's it doesn't cost as a manager, as a leader, it doesn't cost me much, just my time. And, of course, that is a valuable commodity. But I I think about leadership as a an opportunity to invest in the people that they might excel at what they are doing and that doesn't, if you think about it, that is very cheap compared to comp and benefits, and it really just requires my effort. Now, I will tell you as a, as a leader when I am thinking about those people who report to me in order to want to really have those ongoing conversations, really want to invest in them. Yes, it helps me to think about what that does to the bottom line in terms of reducing turnover and the cost associated with that.
Ashley Smalley:But if I'm if I really get to a point where I genuinely care for the people that are working for me, I'm far more likely to dive into those conversations and to want to retain them and to want to create a culture where those people who I'm spending every day with really thrive where it's more than just their cog in the wheel performing the work. Because I think and I would have to go find somebody way smarter than me who's done way more research, but I believe that research would show that when we are satisfied, when we are, when we are excited about what we're doing, I mean, it's it's the Gallup definition of engagement. Right? Our engagement goes up, and now we're working harder and we're doing better work.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And that, Paula, that that other Gallup article you mentioned said that almost half, like, over 40% of employee turnover is preventable. But we don't ask the right questions. We don't have the communication, so we're not doing the things that we might do to keep somebody. 44% of those people, or 36% of the people who left never even told anyone before they made the decision.
Mike Coffey:And so that's you know a little over a third didn't say anything but that means almost 2 thirds did say something and and and somebody in management didn't respond.
Ashley Smalley:And that's really interesting to me. I most of my background in HR was in a blue collar environment out in the oil and gas industry. And really, most of the time, we would just have people show up or, and say I'm done or not show up at all. I cannot really even get my mind around. You've got 2 thirds of the people leaving saying, hey, I'm not happy.
Ashley Smalley:I'm displeased. I'm concerned. I see no future, and we're not even willing to have a conversation then. And maybe that points back to disengaged leaders.
Mike Coffey:You
Ashley Smalley:know, we're not willing to it feels very chicken and egg like, this conversation that we're having is, you know, if one is disengaged, then what is that doing to the other side of the equation?
Mike Coffey:Well and we don't do it, you know, and here comes the drinking game. Rob, our producer, and I, and Ashley were joking early before we started that we've got the, the good morning HR drinking game. Here comes the drinking game, get your shot glass ready. The problem is is we somebody's really good at a job, so we make them a manager, but we don't give them the training, and we don't teach them how to do that. And we don't teach them that, you know, x percent of the time that you're supposed to be a people leader means you're leading people.
Mike Coffey:It's not doing the job. It's it's and leading them means hearing them, making them feel, you know, important to the organization, incentivizing them to bring their best every day and and yeah. All those things, and I think we, we just don't teach managers to do that.
Ashley Smalley:No. And so then we we lose our best producer and we gain a not ideal manager. Right? And so we lose all over the place. We ran into that all is all of the time.
Ashley Smalley:You you promote your best worker and now you've lost your best worker and really kind of mess with messed around with morale because of what you've what you've put into a management role with absolutely no training, no, no foundation laying, and it's really a recipe for disaster. So I understand why there's a good morning HR drinking game around that topic. That that's a good that's a good one to keep bringing up.
Mike Coffey:Comes up a lot. Mhmm. And of those who said something would have helped them stay 30%, you know which isn't a surprising number said more money. Sure. And sometimes that's sometimes that's doable, sometimes it's not.
Mike Coffey:But then the other 70% weren't talking about any kind of copper benefits. They were talking about how they're connected to the organization, how the organization makes them feel valued, interactions with their daily interactions with their manager, and opportunity for advancement, things like that. Those are the kind of things that if you're doing exit interviews, you hear that on the way out. It's too late. Right?
Mike Coffey:And just having managers who are really trained in doing good one to ones and and are disciplined in doing it and are comfortable having frank conversations with their employees about their circumstances.
Ashley Smalley:Well, and again, things that we should be training managers on and and equipping them to be able to do because so often people don't know how to have hard conversations. But how how little does it cost us to talk to people about what their future could be, or talk to people about how to how to grow or what care what characteristics, what traits, what skills they need to develop to be able to move to the next level in the organization. I mean, really all it's gonna require is, some dedicated time and intentionality towards a relational style of leadership where I am approachable and more than that, I will come to you before there's a problem to kinda head the problem off at the past to really develop in such a way that we that we are openly communicating about these things before you're ready to leave. And, oh, by the way, when you have this fleeting thought that maybe the grass is greener on the other side, I know it before it's really become your full blown plan of action, and maybe we can maybe we can change the course of things.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And, you know, so often I see, on different conversation boards on, you know, in HR groups where people say I won't be friends with people at work or I I a manager shouldn't be friends with their subordinates. And I mean maybe we shouldn't be out drinking with them on Friday night, but there's some there needs to be that connection and I I don't think people will feel valued when they just get a pat on the head from a manager good job and and they walk on. I mean, people are really looking for that connection, that feeling that somebody cares about.
Ashley Smalley:I think the concern, for people that hold that position is that it's gonna be messy. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna know too much. I'm gonna have to work around what I know. I, you know, I might have to make accommodations for things. You know, I wanna make sure that I'm being fair across the board.
Ashley Smalley:It comes from a, like a good place, a good intention, but we really miss out on getting to know a full person. I don't know about you. I'm not great at only bringing work Ashley to work and leaving personal Ashley aside. If something's going on in my personal life, it seeps in whether I mean for it too or not and vice versa. I take, I'll take the work home when you, I know you shouldn't, but it travels in there.
Ashley Smalley:It's like spaghetti, just travels together from place to place. And so I want to be seen and valued in the organizations that I work in as a whole person. You know, I don't want there to have to be this disconnect. And in order for do to
Mike Coffey:for that to happen.
Ashley Smalley:I need a leader who sees me and cares about the things that are going on in my life. So my dad and I got to work together for about 9 years and he was the COO of our organization. And like I say, very blue collar, very I don't if you've never worked in oilfield culture, I don't know how to describe it, but it is like the Wild West. But what my dad was so great at was caring for you and knowing what was going on with your wife and your kids and the health of your parents and all of that Because that what that did is that laid a foundation for when you forgot to show up and do your job like you were supposed to and he had to call you in and lay it all out about what the expectations were, you knew that that was coming from a place of not just man, you screwed up and you're really messing things up for the organization, but you knew he cared for you. So when he was asking more of you, you wanted to give it.
Ashley Smalley:It was such a that relational style of leadership was so great as a foundation, and it made it possible for employees to want to do more. How hard is it to have those conversations? Not that hard.
Mike Coffey:And I think when employees have the opportunity I mean, engagement, you know, the the definition of engagement I've always liked is, an employee's willingness to, give their oh, I hate when I lose words. It's, I'm having a Biden moment here. Hold on. When employees have the odd well, we may have to end it today. Anyway, nah.
Mike Coffey:We'll leave it in. When employees have their well, they give they give the, god, what's the word? They give their extra effort beyond what they just the minimum that they have to do. And now it's gonna come to me,
Ashley Smalley:and I have no I would help. I would help if I could think of the I don't know where we're going.
Mike Coffey:You can read my my my copy. Discretionary effort. That is it. See, my my my producer, Rob, has heard it so many times. Yes.
Mike Coffey:Yes. When an employee gives their discretionary effort. Thank you, Rob. And, everybody, meet Rob Upchurch, our technical producer, and, I think it's first time Rob's voice has actually come across the podcast. Thank you, Rob.
Mike Coffey:So but that is my that's the definition I've always liked is this employee, if they're really engaged, they wanna give, they wanna see the organization succeed, they wanna be successful in a role, and you only get that if you feel connected to to the job, to the company, and you want that relationship with your manager to be solid. My kids, you know, were very bright, and but could be knuckleheads at home, but they were really behaved well behaved at school because they not because they didn't wanna get in trouble, but because they cared they've always cared what adults thought of them, and they always wanted to be respectful and and so they did really well in school because they didn't want to disappoint those teachers. And and then they, you know, they gave a rat's butt about their parents, you know, being disappointed, but certainly they wanted their, their teachers and and I think that goes that transfers to the workplace. I mean if you've got that net relationship, that trust with, with your employees as a leader, they're going to want to not disappoint you. And now you've got that same reciprocal responsibility.
Mike Coffey:Right? I mean and that's a and you know that's a responsibility as the owner of my company or as you know when we're working with even our our our vendors who are important to us things like that. I I've got a responsibility back to them to deliver to, you know, to live up to my promises and to get over it when things go wrong and, you know, and life happens and gets in people's way finding ways to make things work so that people can take care of what's really their priority knowing the job is still gonna be here when it's done.
Ashley Smalley:Sure. There was something you said that made me think about, you know, a certain percentage of the workers are such internally driven high performers that for the most part, they're gonna just show up. They are gonna be engaged. They they want a 100% out in front all the time. They don't know how to work any other way until they consistently show up and are unappreciated for that effort.
Ashley Smalley:And then you start to see kind of diminishing returns on their work. And those are the ones that'll leave in a hot minute because they know they're valuable, and they will be appreciated somewhere else. I watched that happen recently with a family member of mine in HR. She worked in an organization. She's a high performer.
Ashley Smalley:She she likes to come and she likes to be engaged and she wants to be involved and she's doing all this work and it's thankless. And after several years of being never appreciated, she's like, okay, I mean nobody's talking to her about advancement. Nobody's talking to her about the work that she's doing or the value that she's adding. Finally, she's like, I'm going to go somewhere where that where that will be appreciated, where that will be acknowledged, where my manager will say, hey, I really appreciate what you're doing here. And man, on a dime, you see productivity go back up in in her just the way she's talking about her work day and her willingness to put forward that discretionary effort as you said and of go back into, oh shoot, I'm capable of 120% whenever whenever I've got real support behind me.
Ashley Smalley:So
Mike Coffey:And yeah. Well, that's the other thing. This this article is talking about people who voluntarily leave and though that's good if a disengaged employee leaves, it's better than the alternative of a disengaged employee staying. Right? I mean, you know, you know, the amount of productivity and just expense of the organization from having this person on board who's who you're paying and who's maybe bringing down the rest of your, you know, the the performance of the rest of the team and all of that, but I still say largely that's a management problem.
Mike Coffey:I mean, there are people who are just that way and they're they're, you know, they're always gonna be unhappy, But hopefully, you identify them in the employee selection process, and as soon as you identify them whenever it is, you move you begin to move them out. You know, improve them, bring them up, or move them out.
Ashley Smalley:Yeah. I was gonna say do what you can to rehab them. You know, if it is a management issue, if it is where I recognize and I think a good leader will always go, hold up. Have I dropped the ball somewhere? You know, is there something I can do better that would bring them along?
Ashley Smalley:Is my communication not there? Is my communication style not where they connect? You know, just kind of thinking through this checklist of things and trying to take responsibility first, and then if I cannot, no matter what I do, get you to get on board, okay, then I've gotta recognize the impact that your attitude is now having on the entire organization. At least I've worked in an industry where it's like, oh, you're not it? Cut them loose.
Ashley Smalley:There's a lot of people waiting. And I think that is negative for company morale as well and just workplace culture and and what that that tells a story to everybody else who's around as well.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. HR leaders are often approached by other parts of the organization with a request that they run a background check on someone for a legitimate business purpose, but not an employment related purpose. And because the laws regarding employment related background checks are totally different from any other kind of background check and most employment background screening companies won't even touch other kinds of checks, the HR pros think they have to say no.
Mike Coffey:While for the last 25 years, Imperative has been the best source for employers who want to make well informed hiring decisions, we also provide a variety of other due diligence background investigations. So whether your company needs to check out a potential service provider, needs help with the due diligence on an investment or acquisition, or maybe your legal department needs a litigation related background investigation, Imperative is here to help. You can learn more at imperativeinfo.com. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been preapproved for 1 half hour of recertification credit. To obtain information, visit good morning hr.com and click on research credits.
Mike Coffey:Then select episode 158 and enter the keyword Smalley. That's s m a l l e y. And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page@imperativeinfo.com. And now back to my conversation with Ashley Smalley. And then there's the article I saw about personality hires, and I'd I'd I'm familiar with the concept.
Mike Coffey:I hadn't heard that term.
Ashley Smalley:I hadn't either.
Mike Coffey:And they were really trumpeting them like that's a really positive thing. And I think in my entire HR career, I've been telling people to move away from personality hires. This idea that, oh, yeah. You know, it'd be a great person to have a beer with. Let's hire him.
Mike Coffey:And really it just introduces so much kind of bias. What was your take on that article?
Ashley Smalley:Well, first, I thought it was interesting because I'd never heard the term and about halfway through the article, it was like, you know, higher to fit or higher to culture. They had in parentheses and that that is at not parentheses. These are quotation marks, that they had had, in the middle of article. And I thought, okay, now they're about to kind of tie it together into and it really didn't. They just like randomly threw the subheading in and kept going.
Ashley Smalley:And so that that kind of threw me for a second, but my my thought was, yes, of course, you want vibrant people in the organization. Yes, of course, that creates an element of energy and connection and, a relational quality on the team that would other otherwise maybe not be there. But certainly you would not want that at the expense of not having skills to go with that. You know, ideally, and I think they mentioned that in the article, like you would, ideally it would be a full package if I'm hiring. I can't fathom hiring somebody with, let's call it an A plus personality and no skills.
Mike Coffey:Or even B- skills. I just can't see that. I mean if I've got better alternatives. Yeah.
Ashley Smalley:But if I am, if I'm hiring and I've got equal skills, then okay, let's also take the one who's got the personality who would help draw people. Because, you know, some people are just naturally galvanizers, you know, they kind of pull people in and and shake people up in a really good way. And so when that's on the table and that's an option, yes. But the part of the article that talked about, you know, other employees could be really resentful of that. I'm thinking, you think?
Ashley Smalley:Yeah. You think?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And even there, I mean, I I can point back to my early career certainly where maybe not it wasn't a personality hire, but certainly personality helped me. I mean, you know, I was the extrovert in the groups and and, you know, eager beaver young guy who would jump in and do anything all that and high social connection all of that. I can see that but if we're looking at 2 applicants and you see you've got to be really aware of what that culture is where you're putting this person because if it may be somebody who you may have one applicant who's really competent and generally in positive and all of that but not real extroverted, and then another one who's you know very extroverted and outgoing, but you put them into a into a work group full of introverts. You know where people who are you know you know nose to the grindstone and you know dealing you know like my employees.
Ashley Smalley:Very task driven.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Task driven 2 or 3 computer monitors. They're dealing with a bunch of of data and and needs a lot of focus. Adding this personality to the room like me, you know, when we were in the office, my employees hated it when I walked through the
Ashley Smalley:the building. Keeping them from getting stuff done. You just wanted to chat and see how things are going. They're like, coffee, shut up. We're trying to get stuff done today.
Ashley Smalley:Yeah. No. And that's a good point. And I think I think it would make a lot of sense to pay attention to who you're hiring into which group. I I feel like it would just be, just silly not to.
Ashley Smalley:I think that's a good point.
Mike Coffey:And I think the other thing that managers have to pay attention to is when we're considering people for promotions or other recognition to am am I really positive about this person because of their personality and they are the ones who've ingratiated themselves with me I don't mean in a negative term they're just that person that I I you know again that's a person I'd like to have a beer with on Friday night.
Ashley Smalley:They're easy to like.
Mike Coffey:Yeah and so we we maybe have you know have a bias towards those people to, you know, think that, oh, yeah, they're the whole deal where if we don't have good metrics and good measurements of performance and aren't really thoughtful about it, we can overlook those employees who are really the dedicated ones that who are really giving, you know, everything every day to to pull the organization forward and maybe you're more technically competent.
Ashley Smalley:Just a little quieter about the way that they are they are going about it. It's kind of the the concept of the squeaky wheel. Right? Like, it's so it's so easy to give you all the attention because it's evident that you're here.
Mike Coffey:Right. Yeah. Well, and while we're talking about evidence that you're here, there was a article in, from there's a survey from Global Human Work the Global Human Workplace why can't I talk? Global Human Workplace Index survey and it said 80% of employees feel productivity anxiety and 1 third of them feel that multiple times a week and so they feel like they've got to get a lot of work done in order to demonstrate to management that they're they're valuable, You know, maybe they don't get enough feedback was was a big part of it. They didn't understand how they were connected to the company, and so they don't know.
Mike Coffey:Am I doing enough? What you know, the work's coming in. Am I and so they're and, I, that that kind of anxiety would would make me crazy.
Ashley Smalley:Oh, me too. It I one thing that I thought was really interesting is, the article talked about that that that type of anxiety is higher in women. And and the article, I think, was trying to make the the connection that that means that, you know, that women aren't receiving what they need in the workplace in order to not feel this and that they're being slighted in some way. It just kinda had a tone to it. But I've I've have daughters that have dealt with anxiety, so I've done a lot of reading and things on that, And really from childhood, girls and women tend to be wired that way.
Ashley Smalley:We tend to we we tend to run a little hotter is what we say in our house. You know, just kind of is like, it's all the spaghetti that we're carrying around everywhere. It's very interwoven. And so I've kind of took exception a little bit to that in the article. I'm like, maybe.
Ashley Smalley:Also, maybe that's just what we're bringing into the organization with us. I I do think it's so interesting because all of these things are so connected, all these articles that we're talking about. In the in the unknown, in the lack of communication, in the lack of feedback, that's when we tend to feel like, oh man, I gotta, I got to really up it right here, you know. And I I'm one of those weirdos I really enjoy. I really enjoy feedback from my manager.
Ashley Smalley:I really like to know, am I doing well and am I do not. Now between us, I really like to hear that I'm doing well. But I want to know if I'm not so that I can make adjustments And, if I'm not confident in the work that I'm doing, a lack of communication from my manager will produce that feeling of anxiety. Have you ever experienced that?
Mike Coffey:Well, I to be honest, I I'm a highly anxious person anyway, and so once I started a therapy and and I'll be the, you know, Ketamine therapy that knocked down my anxiety, I had to find new ways to actually be productive because I had built my whole life on using that anxiety as fuel. Mhmm. And, and so over the last few years, I've I've had to find other ways to, you know, to push myself forward because I've just relied on that for so long. But certainly in my family, one of my sons has a pretty good dose of anxiety. He's in college jail, so the real world's still a little bit out there for him.
Mike Coffey:But Sure. But he's learning to manage it earlier than I ever did. So that's that's the positive. But I think part of it is, you know, you were talking about it it highlighting it with women. And I I get always nervous when we start talking about groups of people based on some demographic, you know, because I never want managers to start treating people a certain way because, oh well, you know, she's a woman and you know how they are, or you know, you know he's a dude and you know that I think it's you know we have to one of the leadership things that managers have to really learn how to do is deal with each employee where they are.
Mike Coffey:Yes. And that's why you've got to have the communication all the communication stuff we talked about earlier and knowing who they are. Yes. What do I need to do as a leader? What do I need to give this person to get the very best out of them to make this a place where they feel included, where they feel that they're part of the organization, they're valued, we want them here, and, you know, what do I need to do?
Mike Coffey:What do they need in their toolkit that I'm giving them to be the best employee that they can be, which means being happy here and all of that.
Ashley Smalley:Absolutely. I would, the analogy I always use for that is coaching to your players. For anybody who's ever coached, you know, little league sports or or even at a higher level than that, you figure out what makes those players tick, and you figure out what what motivation do they need to really perform at their highest level. There are those who need, you know, a good firm talking to, and there are those who need just gentle encouragement. Of course, I'm coaching, you know, pre teen girl basketball, but, you know, there are those that need that, just nearly coddling at that age, and then there are those who are like, no, you're capable.
Ashley Smalley:Let's go. But you have to know them. I mean, really know them, because if you get that backwards and you go too hard, one of those sweet girls will just shut she'll fold up on you like a cheap tent. And if you, you know, you you've gotta have that right level for each employee, and you can't do it if you haven't gotten to know them. If you take a one size fits all approach, it's dangerous, and I feel the exact same way you do.
Ashley Smalley:And I think maybe that's why so many of the articles, like the one about engagement at the at the senior level and just talking about women and what women need, and I'm like, I mean, maybe you might need to ask the woman in the senior level position in that organization what it is that's keeping her from being engaged. I think you're right. I think it's wise to say to just take a wide sweeping generalization of any group of people and say this is what you need to do differently to address it, really takes the humanity and the unique qualities that each individual brings out of the picture, and that's a shame.
Mike Coffey:And we just it's too easy for us to fall into that trap, I guess, to say that, you know, this group based on whatever demographic you wanna look at, needs to be treated differently, just that's not fair to anybody. And, you know, talk about building resentment, you know, you you go to this high performer, female employee and start talking to her like maybe some other female employees might want you to, you're gonna you may that may be the, you know, that may be the disengagement tool, and I think it leads us to make assumptions about people that we've we should be training managers not to make. Right? And so I think there's some challenges in when we start looking at at this, but we can learn I mean we can gain insight so that maybe if if we read a you know an article like this, now when I'm talking to a specific employee and they're demonstrating some you know some concerns about something maybe I understand anxiety a little better or I understand whatever's going on and or I recognize that, yeah, we're putting a lot of pressure on my team right now. This is why we're not performing at the level.
Mike Coffey:We need to find a way to, you know, release some of the steam.
Ashley Smalley:Well and and so using those articles and and those information pieces that we're hearing as, you know, seed planters in our mind where we go like, okay, that gives me something to ask questions about, not make assumptions about. I think there's nothing worse than somebody who's not in a group of people making assumptions about what that group of people wants and what's gonna fix things for them. Just in general, I think that's a bad approach. I think an individual, an individualized approach full of question asking is a much better tack at things like that.
Mike Coffey:And I'm skeptical when somebody in that group tells me what that group needs Mhmm. Because that's always based on their own bias too about what they individually have experienced legitimately.
Ashley Smalley:Sure.
Mike Coffey:And, and you know, but I don't think it's it's, you know, it's fair for me to, you know, if somebody, you know, if a woman tells me you've got to treat women this way because it's what they expect, that's that's what that that's what she wants and
Ashley Smalley:and and I'll try to do that. Yeah. She's a self appointed mouthpiece for all women, and it's like, I mean, maybe others had a different opinion. And I'm I'll I'll be honest. I'm guilty of assuming that if I feel this way, everybody else must feel this way.
Ashley Smalley:Right? Like it's the only possible option.
Mike Coffey:Only right thinking people.
Ashley Smalley:Thank you. But but really keeping in mind that everybody has completely different perspectives on things. I heard a quote one time that said, where you sit determines experiences, the things that make you uniquely you, and the things that you have gone through will determine where you stand on any given issue. And so to assume that everyone has the same perspective of as I would is ignorance, because not everybody's lived the same life that I have lived and vice versa. So we've really got to think, leader or not, we've got to get good at asking questions instead of making assumptions.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. It goes back Monica Guzman was on the podcast about a year ago, and and her book is about having genuine curious conversations with people, who are, you know, come from other backgrounds and who, you know, you may disagree with and how to have those civil conversations. And, and and that's, you know, part of SHRM's big push right now too is civility in the workplace. And, I can't imagine why in July Yeah. As we roll out of July 2024, why civility is gonna be a conversation topic.
Ashley Smalley:But I don't I don't get it either because everybody seems to get along so well, anymore. So
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Well, that is all the time we have. We had a whole list of things, but, we got through some of them, and I I I really appreciate you joining me, Ashley.
Ashley Smalley:Oh, thanks so much for having me. I'd love to do it
Mike Coffey:again. And thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at rob makes pods.com, and you've heard his voice now too.
Mike Coffey:And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time. I'm Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week, and I will take my Adderall. And until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.