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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckman: Jarrod Moses, good afternoon. Welcome to Some Future Day. Finally, I have you as my guest. How are you
Jarrod Moses: I'm great. It's lovely to see you. Pleasure to be on.
Marc Beckman: I've been waiting for this day. I've been waiting for you. So you are literally one of the preeminent minds in advertising, certainly the leader in branded entertainment. But I got to ask you, what is branded entertainment?
Jarrod Moses: It's a good question. Um, and, and first of all, it's great to see you and I, I'm so happy and honored to be on. So great to have a conversation. You know, branded entertainment, Marc, uh, was developed probably about 20 years ago, really. Um, it was, it's been going on for at least 50 or 60 years since the advent of television, to be honest, but it's where a brand inserts themselves into the process of creating entertainment.
How they insert themselves and what they do and what the output is, it ranges depending on the objectives of both the entertainment side and the brand side. But really what it is, is when a brand and an entertainment property come together to create content to entertain audiences.
Marc Beckman: Amazing. So why is it so effective from a Marceting perspective? Why do you stand behind it in such a strong way?
Jarrod Moses: I've always believed in it, um, it's really, really hard to penetrate an audience, even more so now with the advent and proliferation of social media. There are thousands of channels. It's it's impossible to nail down an audience like you used to be able to nail down 10-15 years ago. And so now, however you can emotionally connect to the audience, is the best way to connect to an audience.
And so if a brand and an entertainer or a publisher or a studio can come together to create content that is emotionally appealing and sticky, that's the best way to sell versus just throwing up an ad where they're going to probably cancel it. Delete it or mute it. So that's why I believe in it.
Marc Beckman: so the traditional advertising gets deleted, but if there's an emotional connection between the consumer, the brand, it's a much better marketing move for the, for the brand, for the advertising agency and the brand.
Exactly
Jarrod Moses: right.
Marc Beckman: Got it, got it. So give me some examples. What's the best branded entertainment campaign that you've seen so far this year?
Jarrod Moses: Well, you know, it's, you know, some of the most obvious forms of branded entertainment are things like the Super Bowl Halftime Show. You know, that is branded entertainment. You've seen a brand completely integrate themselves into the show, whether it be Apple or Pepsi. They have a 15-minute show. And the entire time you're seeing the brand present the opportunity, you're seeing incredible entertainment, and people are watching it, in some cases more than the game itself, right?
So, that's like a good example of what branded entertainment is on a mass form. But other ways you see it are, you know, even relevant to today. You saw the launch of, uh, uh, Emily in Paris, where you have five or six different branded entertainment integration segments going on in the show, Where products are actually being developed for the show and being sold after the show.
And they're introducing new customers to different brands because of the show. Massive platform, really well manufactured, really well integrated, and, and well executed. So that's like a recent form that has done really, really well, both on a show level and on a brand level.
Marc Beckman: Okay, so those are cool ideas at the top line, right? They're working, they're effective, it's powerful. Give me an example of a big fail. When did branded entertainment Really just full on its face.
Jarrod Moses: You know, the, the best example of when it fails is when it's forced. And I'll give you a perfect example. Even just this past couple weeks, if anyone, anybody was watching the Emmys, there was a really clunky Uh, integration where, uh, a couple of the stars went backstage and pulled up to a bar and were talking about having a drink of Johnny Walker before coming back onto the stage.
And it was really odd, it was forced, it was not at all natural, um, and there was huge amount of backlash against it in social media to the point where it's devastating to the brand. If you do it wrong, you're actually going to get negative reaction. People will leave, uh, your franchise. So it's just a really poorly executed idea that felt like it was last minute and not well thought out or strategized.
Marc Beckman: So Jarrod, on this show on Some Future Day, we, uh, really look at technology a lot. We really look at emerging technology. We consider things like artificial intelligence, web3, blockchain, you're probably aware, um, but I think in your space. It's kind of interesting to apply spatial computing. I wonder if, uh, you have thoughts as to how branded entertainment is going to fundamentally shift with the advent of spatial computing, uh, virtual reality.
What type of experiences can we expect and look forward to, frankly, as it relates to this new type or this new level of advertising?
Jarrod Moses: it's a great question, Marc. It's actually a scary question too, because both with the development of content, So, we're going to talk about the rights and permissions of AI. labyrinth to navigate. So, the first thing is regulatory speaking, the rights and permissions of AI is a really scary labyrinth to navigate.
So, the first thing is regulatory speaking. How do you do it? How do you do it the right way to make sure that all the boxes are checked and it's being handled correctly? Permissions and usage rights from both sides, uh, the name image likeness of talent, uh, and then also the right depiction and usage of product.
So that's the first thing we have to get through and we're working through it right now. But creatively speaking is where it's very exciting because some of the things that you thought could never get done or frankly too expensive to get done, now you could actually make it happen with the use of AI.
And so the idea of developing everything from script to creative, to the actual content being produced, can all be done in the ether. And so for us, there are no limits anymore to what we can produce, what we can integrate, and what we could actually make for the purpose of commercialization. So that's what's really exciting for us is that now that we're in our think tanks and in the war rooms developing the concepts, there's no limitation to what we can do.
Even to the point where if somebody is dead, you can still do something. And so that's what's exciting for us is we can really, really think far out of the box more than ever before.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So like, this whole world, the ecosystem of branded entertainment seems to really, um, punch at a higher level when there's a celebrity, living or dead, at the center, right? I feel like a lot of what you're talking about is celebrity driven or celebrity marketing. And, um, I don't know, like for so long now, I'm sure you've heard the same thing, Jarrod, like people say like, oh, won't matter, endorsements won't matter, but they keep coming back, it keeps mattering.
So like, Why does, why do Americans just love celebrities? Like, what's the story with American culture and, and their love of celebrities?
Jarrod Moses: They're obsessed. They're obsessed with celebrity. I mean, you don't need to really go far to see when you find hundreds and hundreds of millions of followers on single form pages or on TikToks or on Instagram stories where you have these celebrities carrying the size of most large countries in their own community.
And to get that access is incredible for a brand to be able to do. But the reason it's happening is because celebrities are our storytellers. They're the modern day storytellers. And whether you think about movies, or TV, or music, where it used to be all split up with different audiences and fan bases, fan clubs, if you remember the fan club, Marc, I'm sure you were part of the few growing up, right?
Marc Beckman: No way.
Jarrod Moses: yeah, it's no longer, you know, fan club, it's all about followers.
And so People are obsessed with getting into the back room of a celebrity's life. And it's not anymore about what they're doing in front of the camera, it's what they're doing behind the camera. And the celebrities know that. So it's more about the opportunity for a consumer, for someone who's just general public, to get a sneak peek of what it's like to be in their world.
And because of that, they generate a huge number of audiences. So they're giving them a lot more than they used to right when we grew up It was like you would sell what you saw on the screen or on the album You listen to what was on the album or you saw that what was in concert and that's where it stopped now Half the story is what we're inheriting now from these celebrities and learning about and that's why we're obsessive And so because of that you have huge audiences and because of the huge audiences are able to monetize it And they monetize that with brands
Marc Beckman: So you're such an insider with this stuff. And I know because we've known each other for a while, um, the celebrity, the talent level that you work with really is prolific. Um, from Rihanna to Pharrell and, and beyond. Um, in your opinion, like, can you share with the audience, which celebrities that you've worked with?
That are, um, like, particularly innovative, really groundbreaking. Maybe they get, they like to get involved with the creative process on the other side of the camera or something that is unique that we wouldn't expect.
Jarrod Moses: Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's a great question because we love getting deep, uh, with our, with our talent partners. Uh, you know, a, a, a celebrity's happy in many ways to take a big check and endorse a brand. on television right they get 10 million dollars they endorse a brand or a spokesperson and they're done but the ones that i really enjoy working with to your point and you know this because we've done some of this together before are the celebrities that are actually the creators right the ones that actually have a point of view and have a vision of where they believe a certain product can go.
Uh, but at the same time, where they themselves can utilize a product as a platform and a springboard to their own success. So to that point, celebrities like a Pharrell. Who is a creator? He's an artist. He goes much deeper than the product that you see in the marketplace. I would argue that he's probably one of the best dreamers and creators we have on the planet right now, as far as how deep he can go and how imaginative he can be.
Queen Latifah, very deep in the sense of her talents. She's a writer, a creator, a producer, a performer, has a point of view, um, and is very, very straightforward with her audience. People love that. You pointed out Rihanna. Rihanna, we brought in as a musician, then she's developed into a lifestyle icon. Uh, she is a beauty icon, a fashion icon, a point of view, um, a creator as well.
You know, these are, these are how, when you see a celebrity who becomes a mega celebrity or a mogul, the reason they become those moguls, Taylor Swift, right? Is because they're business people, and they have a vision, and they're entrepreneurial, and they go much deeper than the surface that consumers may know them, know them.
Based on what comes out into the market. Those are the celebrities we prefer to work with, the ones that really become business people and creators behind the scenes. And you know, Jay Z and the Roc Nation team, really interesting to work with them as a conglomerate. We've done some licensing deals with them, we've done some partnership deals with them as well.
So these are types of deals that we enjoy working on. Happy to always go and try to find a deal that is a trans, transaction, but the ones that I really enjoy that keep me going are the ones where we actually get to partner.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, that's really cool. Thanks for sharing all of that, Jarrod. I appreciate it. Um, you know, what's interesting to me is something you said just now, which is particularly interesting to me, is the fact that you said some of these celebrities just want the money. Right? Um, which is fair. They're working and they deserve it.
They got to that level in their career, certainly, where they should get a payday. Uh, but my question to you is, from the consumer's point of view, can they really tell when a celebrity is not as enthusiastic and really is there for the, just for the money versus really a love of the brand? Like, does that, has that really been apparent to people or is it just insiders like us who think it's something?
Jarrod Moses: Now, I think they could sniff it out. Um, I think that people, uh, are much more aware today than they were in days past of endorsement and pay to play, uh, pay to play days, right? Where, whether it be on their social feed or commercially. They see a endorsement deal happening. I think where it starts to fall apart, Marc, is where it doesn't seem like an endemic partnership, where either they see that celebrity doing, playing, wearing, eating, drinking something that's different than what they're endorsing, um, and they're like, well, the cat's out of the bag.
I, you know, I don't trust any of it, um, versus when these deals are really authentic, uh, that they start from a point of seeing or hearing that a celebrity is actually using that product already. And then sung them on to it. You know, we've talked about together, like Matthew McConaughey, um, when he did the deal, um, where he was talking about, I believe it was with, um, uh, was it Oldsmobile?
Buick? What is it?
Marc Beckman: I forget
Jarrod Moses: Yes, but he's, he's, oh,
Marc Beckman: I don't
Jarrod Moses: I'm sorry,
Marc Beckman: if that's
Jarrod Moses: Lincoln, Lincoln, Lincoln.
Marc Beckman: Oh, Yes.
Jarrod Moses: Right. So Matthew McConaughey and his family have been driving Lincoln through for generations and Lincoln signed him to being a deal. Now he did the movie Lincoln Lawyer, so it made a lot of sense to launch it at the time, but he is a Lincoln lover and everyone knew it before he even did the commercials for them.
And so it made a ton of sense and it's because it's part of his DNA already.
So. like, like some controversy perhaps with, um, either Shaq or LeBron where, um, there was an automotive endorsement deal. It was just so, it was just impossible that one of those guys couldn't even like fit in the car. It was one of those guys, right?
I do remember that. Yeah, I do remember that. Um,
Marc Beckman: I
Jarrod Moses: I think it was LeBron. I think it was LeBron who had signed on to something and it was just like, didn't, didn't make sense. It didn't seem natural or real. And that's, and people will not only call it out, but then they'll start to send it out on social media.
So everybody will be part of, you know, the, uh, the gag and, and that's, that, that becomes a huge issue. Um, and that's where brands have to be really, really careful about vetting the deals that they do because they don't do it right. It's going to go up against them.
Marc Beckman: you know, it's interesting when you talk about celebrity and you've been doing this for decades now, um, the, the definition of celebrity might be shifting a little bit because, um, Gen Z has a different set of interests than perhaps our generation. So, you know, for us, the celebrities were, you know, Actors, actresses, musicians, stellar athletes, of course there's still celebrities, but do you see perhaps Gen Z and Gen Alpha even embracing a new type of celebrity, uh, maybe someone from tech or someone from the business world, like, what do you see on the horizon as far as who's the next batch of celebrities?
Jarrod Moses: it's an awesome point and you're a hundred percent right. Um, the way I define celebrity today is anyone that can influence an audience. And it could be politicians. It could be corporate superstars. It could be socialites. It could be people that are discovered just on TikTok because they're cooking something really interesting in the kitchen.
And so when we talk to partners about engaging with celebrity, we're not talking about Kim Kardashian every time, right? We're not talking about the ones that are going to, well, number one, cost. Tens of millions of dollars and have hundreds of millions of followers. It's the ones that are really authentic and can engage and it can influence an audience.
And so if you are a, you know, a medical supply company that are looking to just get someone of influence so that you could sell more medical supplies to a very niche audience, your celebrity that you're gonna hire is gonna be someone who could just be maybe a famous, well-known doctor. Um, that you and I might not even know, but people in a certain space will.
Um, versus the other end of the spectrum, which is, you know, like the Taylor Swift of the world. So for us is, we try to actually dumb down the, the um, frenzy of engaging with a celebrity and the cost behind that. And be a lot more strategic and smart about it. You could actually do much better and get a much larger KPI.
If you sign someone that's authentic and influences a smaller audience, even if they're a B player, then you will be signing an A player. A lot of waste in those A players sometimes.
Marc Beckman: So, okay, so, so you're talking about star power and brand awareness versus really influencing a tribe or the tribe that you're trying to get to. When you talk about KPI, just to back up and make sure our audience is still with us, like, what is a KPI? And then, Um, how do you apply that as it relates to selecting a celebrity for a campaign?
Jarrod Moses: Yeah, so KPI is a Key Performance Indicator, right? Or Key Performance Index. And what that is, it's how are you going to value The deal, right? So if I'm walking into a spirits company and they want to do a deal where they have a celebrity endorsing their certain line of tequila, they're going to value it based upon how many bottles of this tequila do I sell?
How many more pallets am I going to be able to ship to wholesale? What's going to be the impression of my tequila on social media? So how do you socially listen to see what people think about your brand? All these KPIs you want to set up before you even go ahead and do it. Start the strategy on who you're going to sign because you want to make sure that they match up to who you're signing to that deal.
But most importantly, Marc, is you want to make sure those KPIs are probably part of how you compensate that celebrity. So when you sign this celebrity, you're going to now be a spokesperson for this tequila company. We're going to pay you X dollars, but if you, if we sell more product in store, we're going to give you X more.
If the impression of the brand climbs, We're going to give you X more so that way both, both sides are incentivized for success.
Marc Beckman: So Jarrod, let's talk about that a little bit if you're comfortable with it. Again, I know this might not be something that's disclosed regularly. No names attached to it, but what are the material business points then as it relates to a brand and a celebrity? Like, obviously it's not just about hiring somebody and, and giving them a seven digit check.
Like how do you frame up the key elements to a contract between a brand that your agency represents and a celebrity that you're tapping to activate the campaign?
Jarrod Moses: So we look at it, we call it inside and outside. Okay, you have the inside deal and the outside deal. The inside deal is when we sign that talent, what's that talent's career look like over the term of the contract? So if we sign someone who is, let's say, nascent in their career, but over the course of the term, they become a superstar.
Then kudos to everybody, right? That's one KPI is elevation of your own career. Now, why do we do that? Because we hope the brand partnership allows them to catapult themselves into a different ecosystem, a different stratosphere. We want them, the bigger they, the bigger they become, the better for the brand.
So the inside deal is, what does the talent look like? How are they going to grow their career? How busy does their career become? Are they gonna do 10 movies this year or only one? Did their album sell multi platinum or did it only sell 10, 000 units, right? So, the inside deal is the growth of the talent.
So, that's one part of the deal. The outside part of the deal is in the actual transactions, sales, and impressions that the brand makes on the public. So, how many units do we sell? What's the impression of the brand? What's the distribution? How much more distribution did they get? What's the image of that brand, right?
Can you take a brand that's been really damaged, sign a celebrity, and all of a sudden it becomes a hateful brand? So those are, those both sides are critical in how you construct these deals, and both sides have to have incentive for success. So if a brand grows, like we love to say to a talent, if we sell an incremental 1 million bottles of product, we're going to give you a dollar for every more bottle that we sold.
We love those deals because both people are incentivized.
Marc Beckman: That's great. That's great. But then you also mentioned a red flag went up, actually, in my mind, there's a little risk built in, right? When you talk about, um, the, the celebrities, career on the outside, sometimes there are train wrecks, right? Like we saw this recently with Kanye and Adidas and The Gap. So how does a brand protect itself in the contractual stage so that if something happens with the celebrity, um, you know, they get into some trouble or they say something that's just totally outrageous and, you know, insulting, how does the brand protect itself?
Jarrod Moses: so you have in every deal we do, we have clauses written in that protect the brand. So if, if, but, but and I'll get to why I'm kind of grinning because it doesn't necessarily work in overall protection. And as a lawyer, you, you know this, um, you have clauses in contract that can absolutely get you out of the contract if somebody does something wrong.
Right. If they're caught with something, they're indicted for something. If they just behave a certain way, you can get out of the contract, but then you'd argue the damage is already done. And so the problem with that is that there's a brand really want to be public in suing talent to get out of a deal.
Marc Beckman: It's a
Jarrod Moses: Right.
Marc Beckman: problem.
Jarrod Moses: problem.
Marc Beckman: I
Jarrod Moses: And we'd always argue like, you don't want to get into that mix. Once the damage is done, it's done. Get away from it and start figuring out what is the crisis plan to save yourself from that, right? Um, Bud Light, perfect example. Now, what we try to do, however, before we enter these deals is how do we sign the right talent so that we vet it and look at all the potential Cliffs that can happen in these deals based upon who you're signing and the riskier the talent that you sign, the riskier bet you're making for your brand.
But like the old saying goes, no risk, no reward. So how risky do you want to become so that you could actually achieve that greatness in doing those deals? So we try as an agency to vet, scenario play, Talks to the lawyers and really crisis risk everything before we recommend something, but it certainly isn't bulletproof and you have to figure out ways once these these pitfalls occur to get out of it in the most clean way you possibly can.
Marc Beckman: So it's interesting because a lot of the deals you do kind of hover across fashion, art, music, sports, entertainment, spirits, technology, automotive, it's the lifestyle categories, right? I think it's, it's culture. Right, Jarrod? So, from your perspective, like, what is the definition of culture today? I feel like a lot of people just throw that word around.
I'm in meetings all the time and they're like, we need to bring culture to your brand. Here's the way to go. But what's the definition of culture from, you know, the perspective of a CEO who's, who owns an advertising
Jarrod Moses: It's a great question and I'm sure you'll get a thousand different answers. The way I look at culture is culture is a the key ingredient that shapes our lives. Right? It's the key ingredient that shapes your life, Marc. So what cues do you take into your life that shapes the way that you live it?
Marc Beckman: And more influenced than Jarrod? I'm sorry to interrupt you, but
please.
more influenced from, um, that moment in time where a brand and culture collide, or are they more interested in learning about product attributes and, and benefits if they ingest the product or drive the product or fly the product?
Like where, where does that, I'm sorry to interrupt you,
Jarrod Moses: No, it's it.
Marc Beckman: before you go, like, like what's more, what's more critical from a branding perspective, from your perspective? Is it more critical to. down in that world that you're describing, that culture that you're describing, or do I need to know that if I drink this drink, my hair will stay with me for the next 50 years?
Jarrod Moses: I think it's, it's, it's, it's leaning towards the latter because
Marc Beckman: Ah,
Jarrod Moses: nothing,
Marc Beckman: interesting.
Jarrod Moses: is disguised anymore. And so because of devices that you carry in your pocket 24 7, you will know any brand that you involve yourself with, you're going to know the truth about. And those brands have to create a trust between themselves and their consumer.
Because one consumer sniffs out any issue or anything that is not trustworthy, you're going to lose a huge audience. And so it's more about the The delivery of a benefit, it could be an emotional benefit, Marc, right? It doesn't have to be an actual physical or, or, um, some kind of benefit that you see and feel immediately.
It's gotta be an emotional benefit as well, but you have to have that emotional, that emotional tie to the brand before someone's going to fall in love with it and become loyal to it.
Marc Beckman: That emotion that you're talking about is where we started the conversation, branded entertainment, right? That's the ultimate, I really think that's the ultimate connection that a brand can foster with its target consumer base. But another thing that you spoke about is storytelling. You mentioned that A couple of minutes ago, and I'm starting to think, Jarrod, that storytelling might just be a waste of time for brands, and I'll tell you why.
I know this is like a big statement, but it's been on my mind lately. Think about this. How many years, for so many years, we've been talking about storytelling, storytelling, storytelling, but is it authentic for a brand to tell me that it's rugged or that it's dainty? Is it authentic for a brand to tell me that it's like, Waving the flag for a certain pro social cause.
Am I going to buy the product because you're telling me some kind of a story? Or alternatively, have we crossed the Rubicon now? Have we gone into a new threshold where, to your point, it's not about the storytelling. It's actually about being within the culture. So that the consumer, the brand, and the brand are interacting together within this, like, cultural malay, this cultural, um, Uh, like morphing thing that's happening.
I'm, I'm, I'm not entirely, uh, being very clear right now, but is it more about that today and forward looking than just storytelling? Everybody's telling stories. I could hop on TikTok and my, my uncle's telling stories and my kid is telling stories. Like, is it perhaps like, have we left the storytelling
Jarrod Moses: I, I,
Marc Beckman: should we leave the storytelling?
Jarrod Moses: I agree with you. I think that the push towards purposeful storytelling is, um, is, is, is old hat. And I think that, and, and frankly, I almost think that consumers don't care anymore. I think
Marc Beckman: It doesn't pass your sniff
Jarrod Moses: test it does not. It does not. I agree. You're talking to yourself. Right now if I said to you, Marc, now I know you drink coffee.
If I said to you, did you know that 7-Eleven 60 years ago invented the coffee to go? That people, that you act, that they actually invented coffee to go. They were first ones to have paper cups, coffee machines. Yeah, to help people that were on the go for work, going to their early morning construction jobs.
They may, they thought, huh, people probably want to have some coffee on the way to their construction job. We're gonna open up our doors and have coffee to go. Now, I think that's really interesting and cool. Now, if I told you that, it's not a story, it's a fact, but I want the consumer to start to tell the story.
So I think the job for the brand is to link up to culture, to introduce a concept, but let the consumers tell the story.
Marc Beckman: Okay, so let's say then this is an advertising post storytelling world that we're in. Correct. define it as an advertising post storytelling world where now brands need to get the consumers to truly be their evangelists.
Jarrod Moses: Right.
Marc Beckman: kind of where we're
Jarrod Moses: Yeah. That's exactly where we're going. Exactly. Like I just told you that story. Now I saw you smile. Like, yeah, you know, that's pretty cool. But if you just saw that on TV, would you give as much of a crap about it versus when I just told you as a friend? Right.
Marc Beckman: you gave me a certain sense of Wow, I personally, I am a coffee snob. I Right. my, my espresso. I only drink espresso. I would never drink coffee from 7 Eleven. However, now because you told me this, it gives a certain level of, um, authenticity to 7 Eleven and the coffee vertical.
Jarrod Moses: And I
think you might tell a friend. You might tell a friend tonight
that you know. Right. definitely
And that's, and that's where, that's where we need to go. Is I think that whole idea of creating, sparking a conversation versus delivering a message is key.
Marc Beckman: So, buzz marketing, I think, is, is definitely part of experiential marketing and branded entertainment. It creates that emotional connection that you're talking about. I think spatial computing is going to turn everything upside down because part of what you're, you're, um, saying in this post storytelling world that will go away is brands speaking at individuals, at the consumers, vis a vis OOH and POS and everything else.
So, if I'm all of a sudden in. You know, spatial computing and I have a mixed reality experience happening. You can. at me with one of your brands and I could have a customized message with the world transforming around me. As I'm walking to meet you at this coffee shop, you'll know how to create a world where I'm immersed in this story, um, with the brand.
So it's really not that hard. And I'm not telling me and speaking at me anymore. It's my own experience and I could walk into the store with spatial computing and purchase the coffee. I don't have to pay for it. It will be charged against my hardware or my device or whatever it is. And I go from there, it's going to be pretty fascinating.
And I wonder, like, if all of that real estate, all the OOH and everything else is just going to disappear.
Jarrod Moses: Yeah, I think it is. right? I think it was the movie with Tom Cruise many years ago where uh, it was Vanilla Sky where he's walking down and every billboard reacted to him as he walked by it and delivered him a benefit. Yeah, I think it's, now you and I love the idea, it's probably gonna be a little bit more difficult for you and I to, to accept and adapt to it, but our kids, they're gonna be living with it, right?
Marc Beckman: It's definitely going to happen because it's going to happen to them fully Exactly. their digital realm. And it's going to happen to them with mixed reality too. There's no doubt about
Jarrod Moses: That's right.
Marc Beckman: I think we're living in a post storytelling world. That's my big news today. But I also have to tell you, I think that people, I think that customers are frustrated with brands pretending.
to be pro social. I've seen some great, uh, you know, very effective campaigns through the years. We've done amazing things at our agency with Fashion Targets Breast Cancer. We've raised millions and millions of dollars to combat breast cancer. I love what MAC Cosmetics has done, um, to support the AIDS community, um, and to combat AIDS in general.
I think it's important, but I'm also seeing like a, a big drop off with brands in the way that they're working pro social initiatives. You know, for example, During, um, 2020 21 we saw a lot of support with Black Lives Matter and unfortunately now it seems like it's just not, you know, as much, certainly in the fashion industry, as much as it was before.
So I'm curious, do you think we're going to go into like A different phase of, um, you know, activist type of marketing, pro social initiatives.
Jarrod Moses: I, I agree with you, Marc. I, I think that the, to exploit purpose, um, actually goes around, goes, goes against the whole point of having purpose, right? So, the way I like to say is like, you know, if you walk into a, um, coffee shop or an ice cream store and it's a jar on the counter and says tips, are you the guy that.
Wants to make sure that the barista sees the dollar that you're putting in the jar or are you just happy to put it in knowing that they earned it and you'll walk away. And I think that the most authentic way that you give somebody something is to do it anonymously and to do it without caring for the credit. And I think people appreciate that and I speak
the same way when it comes to companies. If you want to do something that's altruistic and you give it back, do it. and make it part of your brand ethos, don't over commercialize it. Because people then just think you're doing it because you're doing it for people to become emotionally attached to you.
And then when they look into it, they say that it's capped. Oh, we're only going to give up to 50,000 right? You could really start to create a fire swarm of negativity. So I agree with you. I think the whole idea of this purpose driven initiative for brands was was over the top. And there's a way to do it with class and and dignity agree.
and Authenticity. And I think that's what consumers enjoy the most, uh, versus doing it in a very commercial way.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, it's kind of disappointing, like, if you think about that Black Lives Matter moment, the whole world filled their Instagram black box with, um, uh, you know, that, that same message on that same day. Uh, major corporations came, and they wrote checks, which is fantastic, um, and important, and I obviously support that.
But, I wonder, um, you know, how impactful it was. I think today, that racism bus continue continues to drive Forward. Unfortunately, however, the companies that wrote those checks aren't writing the checks anymore. And I wonder, you know, what that means, Yeah. society and, and, and, you know, can we work in a, in a way to be more impactful than just simply writing a check?
It's like symbolic to your point. It's, it's symbolic and we need more than symbolism. We need action.
Jarrod Moses: Yeah, we need action. And what are they, you know, what are, what are companies doing to help and to push forward, uh, growth? Um, and, and that's where I think consumers have to ask those questions and utilize social media to put those questions out there. So companies feel as though they have to commit themselves to long term growth.
So, it's all about the breadth of the partnerships that they create, not just transactional.
Marc Beckman: Let's talk about that consumer for a minute. Like, you know, I, I know that your agency works on a global scale. You're in markets way beyond just North America, and it's pretty fascinating. Um, from your perspective, does that concept of pro social translate overseas? Like, do they care about it in Asia, Jarrod?
Jarrod Moses: definitely differs where you go around the world. Um, certainly not as significant in other countries than versus the US. and by the way, you know, the whole idea of, you know, Um, social influence, uh, differs in the countries that you go to. And then in the geopolitical climate that you have, depending on the country you go to, the topics, uh, the subject matter is very different too.
As you can imagine, so, depending on the region that you go into, you have to really have boots on the ground to understand what is it that they care about. Um, and, and then to focus a campaign towards that mission. There isn't one size fits all at all. Um, and so you really have to do your research and your homework And have people that are on the ground, not just expats, that are in these regions, giving you the information so that you actually do it, uh, honestly and, um, and correctly.
And so, yeah, it, it definitely differs where you go. Uh, but I will say that one of the things that seems to be consistent is the consumer pressure with the utilization of social tools. That does seem consistent around the world, that people will literally hop on to social platforms to tell people what they think.
And to call it out as fast as they can. I mean, movements have occurred because of this around the world. And so, the engagement with social tools and social media is something that's continued to grow, um, around the world consistently.
Marc Beckman: Other than cause related marketing, Jarrod, what do you see, um, that's different between American consumers and consumers outside of America?
Jarrod Moses: Uh, you know what, it's, um, it, it, it, it depends on the category. So, uh, climate, for instance. Climate and climate change and climate awareness changes where you go and where you talk about it. Um, food ingredients. Right. And what you're eating, what you're putting in your body. Uh, as you all know, Marc, you go over to, uh, whether it's France or to Spain or to, uh, Germany, very transparent to what the ingredients are in foods and also very, uh, um, particular about, uh, What ingredients are in food?
I think there was just something I saw the other day where an influencer was talking about McDonald's french fries in the U. S. versus in Europe, and the ingredients in Europe are like three, and in the U. S. they're more than three, right? So things like that, those are, those types of things are important in different countries.
Emissions, obviously something that's really important. Um, employment, uh, levels of employment and, and, and seeing what employment levels are and how companies are, um, Creating jobs. That's something that also, uh, is important in different countries as you go around the world. So it's, uh, and you brought up earlier, um, technology.
Uh, the pickup of technology. Uh, and does it make sense to market one technology versus the other? Or what actual technology are they using in certain markets? And what are they using it for? These are the types of areas that we explore on a daily basis. Um, and they differ wherever you go. Some places are a lot more, um, advanced than we are in the States.
And some places are, are, are certainly behind.
Marc Beckman: That's amazing. That's really cool. Jarrod. I have, I know that you're a lover of music. So I prepared, um, a few musical lyrics to read to you. I think it's interesting in perspective, uh, in per, in particular to read to you because you're a lover of music. And you're at the center of all things celebrity. So I'm going to read you these lyrics and what I'd like you to do is react to a television commercial that I saw last night while I was watching the Giants Cowboys football game.
I don't know if you saw it, but specifically, it really caught my attention and I'm still perplexed that Emmitt Smith did a Depends commercial. Did you happen to
Jarrod Moses: I did. I did. I was watching the game, as you know, I'm an Eagles fan, but I was watching, hoping the Giants would lose. Um, you know, I didn't
Marc Beckman: right, here we
Jarrod Moses: know who I was rooting for at that point,
but yeah.
Marc Beckman: and then here are the lyrics. They're Bowie's lyrics on fame. So fame makes a man takes things over. Fame lets him lose hard to swallow. Fame puts you there where things are hollow.
So I'm curious if you think about those words from Bowie, and then you saw Emmitt Smith last night, what, like, what thought, what does this trigger in your
Jarrod Moses: Yeah, well, the first thing that's upsetting is that, you know, we grew up with him, not even grew up, he was kind of our contemporary, and he's doing Depends commercials, so it makes us a little bit concerned about our lives and our age. Um,
Marc Beckman: sure.
Jarrod Moses: so, that's the first thing, but, yeah, listen, it's, it's, it's interesting.
There are, Emmitt's a celebrity. At one point in his life, to these lyrics, he was on top of the world, right? He was Michael Jackson of football. And it's very hard to let go of that. And I think that if a brand presents somebody with the opportunity to have two things, one is additional and continued fame and recognition, no matter what, why you're doing it.
But to be on TV is something that celebrities crave when they're, when they're, when they're missing it. And so how do I get on TV is the second part. And sometimes money allows you to get over the The obstacle of the brand that you're endorsing, right? Now I'm going to bet that he's probably a user of the product.
Um, I would hope he is. So it's authentic. Just like you'll see other celebrities utilizing, you know, doing healthcare commercials, right? Medicine commercials. So he's a user of the product. The money's right. I promise you the money's right. Um, and then it gives him fame because he's back on TV. But to that last lyric, It's it's a bit of a
Marc Beckman: Puts you there where things are hollow.
Jarrod Moses: Yeah, it's it's Accepting the fact that now you're buying into the fact that you're not earning your money on the field anymore You're not gonna you have to earn it this way.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, you know, I agree with everything you said. Um, Lisa Rinna was a client of mine for a long time, and I'm the person that structured her. deal with I remember that. got way more than seven digits. Um, it was a fantastic experience. I think it was a win win situation. I don't think Rinna was wearing Depend, uh, diapers at that point in time.
Maybe she is now, I don't know, but back then I don't think she was. Um, but you know, it's an, it's an interesting thing. I was thinking about you and your love for music and I was just like, that song struck me when I saw that. I was like, I'm talking to Moses tomorrow. I gotta hear what he has to say
Jarrod Moses: Well, listen, you'll remember the day, Marc, where we had, uh, remember we had, um, what's his name, was doing, uh, MC Hammer was doing cash for gold commercials.
Marc Beckman: I do remember.
Jarrod Moses: And, you know, everyone knows the stories of MC Hammer and his 100 million entourage, and he blew through all that money, and he had to do what he had to do.
Marc Beckman: But there, but there are other like winners and losers. Like when you break it out, there's some been just like some transformative businesses that came out of celebrity endorsements. Like one of them is, you know, obviously Michael Jordan and Nike. That relationship was so ahead of the curve and look what it's created today.
Right?
Jarrod Moses: Yeah.
Marc Beckman: Incredible.
Jarrod Moses: it's incredible. I mean, he's built an institution from it. I mean, everyone points to that as the prime example of how you become a celebrity mogul. How do you become a billionaire? Building a brand that is incredibly authentic, uh, and really all about him. But what I also love that he's done is he actually has now created An ensemble cast that carries the Jordan brand.
So he doesn't have to be there anymore, so to speak, right? This is a legacy brand. And that's really when you've hit the top is the most, the highest level of success is when you can remove yourself from the brand that carries your name and other people can promote it for you.
Marc Beckman: So it's an interesting thing though. You mentioned like it's become a billion dollar business because of him. but now I wonder, like, do. Elite athletes need to do that anymore. Do they need to work so hard? Like, it's my understanding, maybe it's not accurate, but it's my understanding that Lionel Messi was paid a billion dollars from Adidas.
A billion dollars. Um, I'm wondering, does it make sense, right? So Lionel Messi comes in, they shoot him, he wears the product, he gets a billion dollars, and that's it. Like, does he need to work as hard as Jordan did early days to build that
You know, he probably doesn't, uh, because now when Jordan first started, only one way you saw him, which was on TV, right? Now. You can see Messi 15 different ways. and to your point of the way technology is going, there could be holograms of him running down the street outside our office, right?
Marc Beckman: will
Jarrod Moses: There will be. So you don't, you don't need to work as hard. Uh, and you know, Adidas is doing the math. It's worth the billion because they know that the ROI on that's going to be tremendous. They're looking at the modeling and they know that it's going to come back.
Marc Beckman: Jarrod, are there like a lot of billion or, or notable billion dollar endorsement deals other than that Messi
Jarrod Moses: No.
Marc Beckman: I've never
Jarrod Moses: No, I don't, no, I don't think so. I think in aggregate, maybe, you know, you can get there, like if you look at Shaq, if you look at obviously LeBron, um, there's not a lot. I think less than you can count on one hand.
Marc Beckman: So like when you mentioned LeBron though, like there's something interesting that pops into my mind with LeBron. LeBron was, um, is now part of this amalgamation of the gaming, the gambling, uh, industry, right? It's LeBron, DraftKings, and I believe the NFL. And, um, it kind of like my attention because I know LeBron's not, um, an athlete in the NFL.
I don't know if DraftKings cut a similar deal with the NBA, but we were always so, um, absorbed as a society with the concept of an athlete and gambling and the appearance of impropriety. Obviously, the Pete Rose story continues. He's still not in the Hall of Fame, right? It's incredible. Um, but we've entered this new world.
Like, does it hurt a guy like LeBron to be aligned with a gambling institution now, like DraftKings? Does it hurt the league to foster these types of relationships?
Jarrod Moses: so funny you say that. I thought about the same thing last night because the commercial was on television with him and, um,
Marc Beckman: I didn't
Jarrod Moses: oh yeah, I mean, he, the commercial's been on a lot and, uh, you know, I am, I'm leaning towards the way you're feeling is that we could handle the way someone like LeBron comes in and out of the commercials, whether it be for DraftKings or for, um, promoting his, his, his clothing line or his sneaker line.
We, we get that. An athlete gambling, we get it. My concern comes with the younger generation. where if you're talking to a teenager or even younger that's seeing LeBron endorse gambling um to me that's where it scares me a bit because they're going to assume well if he says it's okay then as soon as I'm able to and I say as soon as I'm at the right age there's a distinction as soon as I am able to gamble
Marc Beckman: Yeah.
Jarrod Moses: I'm going to do it and I think that's a bit irresponsible And so what I would love to see, and maybe they're doing it, is also a sidecar campaign for responsible gambling and what it means, and an educational piece that does go to a younger generation from LeBron, um, and others who are athletes, of why it's important to understand the implications of gambling.
So, I do think it gets muddy, and I don't like it. Um, but if it plays towards our generation, I'm fine with it. And maybe one of the things they should think about, and they've done this in spirits, is gambling advertising only comes after 10 p. m. know, it starts to regulate what networks it airs on and what time it's allowed to be airing.
Marc Beckman: It's interesting. Also, um, I didn't think about it that way. Like the power of celebrity marketing impacting and influencing the younger generation in a negative way and perhaps even a destructive way, but we don't even care that the DraftKings gambling entity is totally aligned with the sports league anymore.
It's like,
Jarrod Moses: Right?
Marc Beckman: shifted as a society. It's
Jarrod Moses: Crazy! And Pete Rose is still not in the Hall of Fame. It's crazy!
I'm of fame. Jarrod, uh, you've given me a ton of your time. I end every show the same way. My guests come on and what I do is I ask, I start the sentence with the beginning of the name of the show, Some Future Day, and I ask my guest to end a sentence for me, are you in?
in. I hope I can perform. Let's
see. The way that we live our life 24 7. will morph into, in some future day, branded entertainment will morph into,
Marc Beckman: wow, you're killing me here. So I'm going to be bombarded with advertising all day, all night, while I'm asleep, while I'm eating, in the shower, nonstop,
Jarrod Moses: It won't even be advertising. It's just the way you live your life. It's your inputs. You're not going to know the difference between advertising or a brand.
Marc Beckman: Jarrod Moses. I love you. Is there
Jarrod Moses: I love you.
Marc Beckman: else that you want to add
Jarrod Moses: No, listen, I think what you're doing is awesome. You do a great job at it. I'm so happy you're doing it. And I hope people understand that this is the type of education you need.
You don't get it from the books. You get it from my brother, Marc. So, thank you.