Join Wendy Coulter as she sits down with Dr. Sarah Glova, a renowned leader, educator, and speaker, to dive into the power of the Hummingbird Effect in branding and innovation. Wendy and Sarah discuss the significant impact of seemingly small changes in business strategies and personal approaches, illustrated by Sarah's successful TEDx Talk on goal setting. The conversation explores authentic leadership, the historical challenges women face in business, and the importance of differentiation in branding. They also highlight the creation of the North Carolina Women Business Owners Hall of Fame and its role in preserving the legacy of pioneering women entrepreneurs. Discover insights on how small innovations can lead to surprisingly significant results.
00:00 Introduction to Brand Building
00:50 Meet Dr. Sarah Glova
01:06 Fun Facts and Personal Stories
02:32 The Hummingbird Effect in Action
03:23 Sarah's Journey and Insights
05:19 The Power of Goal Setting
07:38 TEDx Talk Experience
10:25 Innovation and Experimentation
14:25 Authenticity in Leadership
18:35 Unexpected Outcomes and Lessons
22:02 Choosing the Perfect Outfit for TEDx
24:30 Embracing Authenticity in Marketing
27:37 The Importance of Differentiation
33:28 The Legacy of Women Business Owners
37:52 The North Carolina Women Business Owners Hall of Fame
44:35 Concluding Thoughts on Legacy and Impact
Creators & Guests
Host
Guest
What is The Hummingbird Effect with Wendy Coulter?
Welcome to "The Hummingbird Effect," a podcast dedicated to uncovering the subtle yet powerful ways that small innovations can transform your business. Hosted by Wendy Coulter, CEO of Hummingbird Creative Group, this show delves into the stories and strategies behind successful brand building.
For over 25 years, Wendy has helped CEOs and business leaders redefine their brands through innovation and compelling narratives. In this podcast, she shares the insights and lessons learned from her extensive experience, exploring how a strong brand orientation can significantly increase the value of your business.
Each episode features engaging conversations with industry leaders, business advisors, and innovators who have harnessed the power of branding to make a substantial impact. Discover how focusing on core values, mission, and vision can drive your brand beyond mere marketing tactics, fostering a culture that resonates with your audience and enhances your business's reputation.
Inspired by the concept of the Hummingbird Effect—where small, adaptive changes lead to remarkable outcomes—this podcast aims to help you understand and implement the incremental innovations that can elevate your brand and business.
Join Wendy Coulter on "The Hummingbird Effect" and learn how to evolve your brand, attract more customers, and ultimately enhance the value of your business through strategic branding.
[00:00:00] Hi, I am Wendy Coulter, and I help CEOs unlock the hidden power of their brands. For years, business leaders have focused on marketing tactics, but what truly matters is building a strong brand. Think of it like the Hummingbird Effect.
[00:00:41] Podcast Studio 02: Small innovations in branding can lead to surprisingly big results, increased valuation, stronger culture, and a marketing message that resonates. Today we're diving deeper into the world of brand building, and I'm thrilled to have with me Dr. Sarah Glover, an amazing leader, keynote speaker, innovator, educator, and champion for women in leadership, and one of the most authentic people I know.
[00:01:06] I met Sarah when we were serving in leadership for the National Association of Women Business Owners, and I have two fun facts from traveling with Sarah oh while we were serving together. First, Sarah loves bookstores. That's a safe one. If you follow me on Instagram, you know that. Okay. That was a good one.
[00:01:23] So when we traveled together with Nabo, I left Sarah to peruse the strand. I stayed there a little while. You did stay with me there for a little while. Yeah. And then I got to go to all the thrift stores that were right around that area, which is one of my favorite things. You went to multiple thrift stores and came back and I think I was still like in the same area of the strand.
[00:01:42] Well, that's okay. That was one of my favorite trips. So lots of fun with you. And we both love a good Guinness. Yes. Is that our second fun facts? That's our second fun fact. I love these fun facts that you picked about me. I will absolutely accept. Yes. I'm trying to take books. I'm, I'm trying to take lessons from super moderator Sarah, because I know how good that you are at this.
[00:02:01] So that's nice. I'm little intimidated to be the host. Of this today. I also have Hannah with me. She'll be co-hosting today with Sarah, and she's our marketing strategist at Hummingbird Creative Group. So thanks for joining us. You too. I'm excited to learn more and talk to you, Sarah. Yeah. Looking forward to it.
[00:02:22] So Dr. Glover is a fabulous speaker and moderator with wonderful insights into how to simplify the complexities of business communications and strategy. In fact, Dr. Glover's recent TEDx Talk is a perfect example of the Hummingbird effect in action. She has achieved over 80,000 views after just three months.
[00:02:43] Amazing. It's crazy. Actually. We just hit. A hundred. We just broke a hundred thousand. Awesome. And I can share that with you 'cause it just, it pretty happened pretty recently, but I know, isn't that crazy? And I, I know we're gonna dive into this, but it's so fun to hear you say that it's similar to the Hummingbird effect because I do think of it that way when you said small actions that lead to big result, big results.
[00:03:02] There were so many small things that I think, and I had people who helped me, so I'll say the team did to, to help this TEDx get out there. So I'm excited to dive into that. Well, I'm excited to chat with you about your TED Talk and how seemingly small innovations can lead to big, big wins. Mm-Hmm. Which I think has happened for you.
[00:03:20] So welcome to the show. Thank you. And just tell us a little bit, give us a little background on you, Sarah. Yeah. So I think the easiest way to explain myself to folks who I've never met as I like to share that I used to teach at NC State, so Go Wolf Pack for anybody who's an NC State fan. Yeah. Okay. So I used to teach at State and I taught technical writing for engineers.
[00:03:38] So engineers love to write. Right. So I was their favorite. No. So with my students, I had to kind of convince them, not just that as kind of a younger instructor, I was credible and worth listening to, but also like that the class was worth their time. Like it wasn't just me that I had to convince, I had to convince them that the class needed to exist too.
[00:03:58] And so it gave me this early practice into really thinking about the audience and who I wanted to serve. And so I used to tell my students, look, your engineering degree is gonna get you hired. But I'm gonna get you promoted. And so right away I was positioning myself and trying to understand how I could serve those around me.
[00:04:14] I wanted to share the information that I'd learned what I knew, but I had to figure out how to make it interesting to the people who were gonna use that information. So I started that at State, and then when I was there, I started my own company. And that's how you and I met was through Nvo, as you mentioned, and things took off from there in a rollercoaster kind of way, you know, up and down and upside down sometimes.
[00:04:34] And all the things. All things which we can talk about more. But that was, I started my company back in 2012, which is just crazy. So not as crazy as maybe your story since what year did you start Hummingbird? 1995. Dang. So you're about to celebrate a big old anniversary, a big one next year? Yeah. Yes, we're working on that party right here and her.
[00:04:54] She's my superstar planner over here. I love it. And keep me straight. We all need Hannah. Absolutely. So let's dive in. Mm-Hmm. Can you share a specific instance where a seemingly small change in your marketing or branding strategy led to a significant and positive outcome or results?
[00:05:17] Podcast Studio 02: Oh yeah, I've got one. So, and you already brought up the TEDx talk, and for those who haven't seen it, I did a TEDx talk and it was about goal setting. And this is something, I mean, you've heard me talk about this for years. I care a lot about helping people unlock their potential. And I know Hannah, we're just meeting, but the kind of nerdy thing that you'll hear me say all the time is that we talk about skills as if their personality traits, like someone will say, oh, I'm not a good writer, or I'm not a good speaker.
[00:05:42] As if it's like, oh, my eyes are green. You know, my eyes are brown. I'm tall, I'm short. Like it's a personality trait. It's something that we can strengthen. It's something that we can work on like any muscle building activity or any hobby. Those are just things that we can work on, not things that we're born with.
[00:05:59] And so when I looked at goal setting, professional development, I wanted to figure out how to talk about it in that vein. So how can we talk about these things in a way that people really feel like they can grow, they can accomplish big things. And I went around and around and I could not come up with anything that didn't sound like it had already been said.
[00:06:14] I felt like I had a new take on goal setting and definitely the authenticity was there and kinda caring about others and, and making them feel seen in it. But there were other people doing that. What really changed was, and this is a true story, I was talking with a friend about what I was struggling with and my friend was asking me why it was so important to me to do the talk.
[00:06:33] And I was like, because more people need this. I mean, somebody could tell me that they wanted to be the next president and I could help them work on that with like a single piece of paper. And he stopped me and was like, well, what do you mean? I was like, well, you know, 'cause it's so simple. Look, here it is.
[00:06:49] And he was like, I don't think that I've seen that before. Do you really feel like that one page could help anyone with any goal? And I. Did, and that's what we built the TEDx around. So it was a small shift. It was still all the things I wanted to share about goal setting, but it was changing the way that I was delivering it so that it felt really accessible.
[00:07:08] It's just a page. Anybody can grab a piece of paper or an a napkin at the airport and fill this out. And so that small shift, I think it's the reason that TEDx has done so well, because it's not just the promise of, we're gonna talk about goals, we're gonna talk about it in a way that anyone can work on it and finish the, the talk and have a plan in place.
[00:07:29] So how was the engagement in that as you, move forward with the talk? At the talk was really interesting, and if anyone has given a TEDx talk, you know every TEDx is different. So there's TEDx Rally, TEDx Apex. If you're, if you're local, you can do TEDx. NC State, I got to participate in the first ever TEDx Shaw University, so the inaugural, and it was at the beautiful SD Hall, which is the first building built for African American women education in the country, like just the history there.
[00:08:03] So it was a very special venue. We also had an amazing team. Helping to produce it. Amazing team putting it together. One of the things they did was they brought in some really bright lights, and it was very helpful because on the video everything is very well lit, and at the event I think everyone could see the speakers.
[00:08:21] But Wendy, I should have practiced that talk with flashlights pointed at my eyeballs. So when you asked me how the engagement was at the talk, I don't know. 'cause I couldn't see anyone and I couldn't really hear them either. And part of it was just, you know, the anxiety of when you're up there, it's almost like being on an airplane and you just have the like in your ears.
[00:08:40] You can't really hear. So during the talk, I didn't really feel the engagement. Luckily, I had practiced it so much that I, I was able to keep going and just hope that behind the blinding lights were people smiling. And that's kind of what I was imagining when it was published online. The engagement was pretty quick.
[00:08:57] You don't know when your TEDx is gonna come out. It just comes out. There's no, oh, wow. Like notification. How I knew is I all of a sudden got like 15 LinkedIn messages offering to help market my TEDx talk. And I was like, what TEDx? Do I have a TEDx? And that's how I knew to go Google myself and find the link.
[00:09:13] When I clicked on the link, it already had a couple hundred views. I honestly thought it was a mistake. I thought maybe it had been out for a few days and it had just come out and it had those views. And so I think the engagement started with the title. So when you talk about these small actions, thinking about what the title is, what promise are you making to people who are gonna spend their time with you in this TEDx video?
[00:09:36] What are they gonna get out of it? If they hadn't watched it, what would they be missing? Those kinds of questions. And so a lot of that went into the idea for the title, which is how to Make a Plan For Your Goal. That's just a single page. We made sure to get that single page in there, and I wanted to call it that, how to make a Plan for Your Goal.
[00:09:53] That's just a single page. The people I worked with were like, that's not strong enough. It's how to achieve your goal with just a single page. And being someone with a background in academics, I was like, we can't promise that. I don't know if you can achieve it. It's just the promise of planning. And they're like, no, no, but they can.
[00:10:08] We believe in this. Let's do it. And so it's how to achieve your goals with a single page. And I think that promise is what started the engagement. Yeah. And that's so simple. Mm-Hmm. Right. Like you brought it down to that concept of a single page. To me that's kind of innovative. So talk about that as innovation.
[00:10:25] How did the initial situation kind of change over time? Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that. That's a great question. I'm glad you said that because I think sometimes we hear simple and we think easy. And simple and easy are not the same things. And I don't have to tell you all this 'cause you have this amazing marketing work that you do and background.
[00:10:45] So, you know, sometimes the simplest concepts are the hardest ones to come up with. So when I tell you that I wrestled with this, I mean I, I wrote seven different. TEDx talks, and I don't mean wow, like, oh, I changed a word here there seven times. I mean seven completely different talks. And I was in that process when I met with my friend and told him, well, I could help you plan a goal on a single page.
[00:11:07] And that's where the epiphany kind of happened. So it took a lot of work to get to that simple idea. And I think when I, when I talk to folks about innovation, it's really interesting to hear what people think of as innovation. I think. A lot of times it involves a guy with a black turtleneck. Right? Well, it has a lot in the world, but no, not always.
[00:11:28] Right? So we think of like a Steve Jobs or, or you know, we think of innovation as like a light bulb moment or something. And you know, what we see in the research, and I, I really like looking at this, is innovation is more about the practice of doing and doing often and experimenting than it is about the one big idea.
[00:11:46] Innovation isn't the light bulb moment, it's more the practice of, of working on something every day. The willingness to experiment. When I was writing those seven TEDx talks, I had to be willing to finish writing one and then ball it up and throw it away. I mean, I, but we get so discouraged right after like the third one, it's like, really?
[00:12:05] I just wrote a third one and said, no, thank you. But what I've learned, and I think this, we could talk about how this relates for business ownership too, but you just learn that that's not wasted effort. Right. Whatever I did in that third TEDx, it didn't end up in the last TEDx, but it's gonna be somewhere.
[00:12:21] It helped me get to the seventh TEDx and there might be another talk that I give one day where I might pull something from that. Right? And so for me, the innovation was really just. Kind of the grind of it. Like really sitting down and being willing to continue experimenting, to continue trying to continue practicing, to not give up when it felt sticky and confusing and and frustrating and to keep going.
[00:12:42] I think that's when we see innovation happen. And for groups that are looking to build innovation, a lot of times, one of the first things I talk to them about is, what does it look like at your organization? When something doesn't go well, what does it look like? And I, I don't love to use the word failure 'cause there's a lot going on with that, but more with experimentation.
[00:12:59] If I'm experimenting and I write something that doesn't resonate, is that considered an experiment? Are we like, well, it's all data, let's keep moving. Or is it like, oh, that didn't go well, guess we gotta shut down the podcast. You know, we had that one episode that didn't work. Well, let's, let's shut it down people.
[00:13:13] Right? Right. So what does that experimentation look like? And it's the organizations that do have that healthy approach to experimentation and do support their teams with experimentation that see these innovations. Well, and I think as a, as a business owner who's been in business for a really long time, I'm just gonna take it there since you kind of started that path for me.
[00:13:36] We, we think early on in business that. We've gotta do everything right. We've gotta have a plan, we've gotta know where we're going. Mm-Hmm. And what I've learned, and, and part of what I look at as the Hummingbird effect, is that experimentation that you're talking about in business, where you are doing these small things over time.
[00:13:57] And as long as you keep it moving in the right direction, maybe you don't do everything right, but you are gonna have these huge results. In the end, it's gonna be amazing. And maybe there's not an end for me. There's not been an end yet, right? But everything just keeps getting better and better and better.
[00:14:13] And it's not how I imagined it at all necessarily. So it's those little happy experiments that. That turned out great. I love the phrase happy experiments, and this is such a callback to kind of our history together. I remember when I met you, you joked at the beginning of the podcast about being intimidated because I do a lot of moderating and and now you're hosting and that just, I smiled so big when you said that because I remember meeting you and other women in Nabo and being so intimidated.
[00:14:40] I was so intimidated. I mean, you're so put together all the time. You always have this, and I, I, you know, I've known you for a long time and so I know that we can joke about this. You always have this amazing like hair and outfits and you seem really put together and you've got your stuff going on, and I'm a mess.
[00:14:57] And you know that about me. Like I have a lot going on behind the scenes and, and know in myself that. With that, I'm a little bit messier, but in getting to know you over the years, what I know is you learned that I'm a mess too. No, I wasn't gonna say that at all. What I was gonna say is that you aren't afraid of the mess, right?
[00:15:14] Absolutely. You also don't mind if things get a little bit messy and you are willing to help be a part of the team that gets in and figures out what's going on, and you're not the person who's gonna always value showing up perfectly over showing up at all. And I really appreciate that about you because when we met.
[00:15:30] It was still a really interesting time in what I think of as like the girl boss movement. Mm-hmm. Right. When we went, it was right around 20 12, 20 13, 20 14, and I was getting into entrepreneurship. I was coming from academia. I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I go to a Nabo event hoping to learn, and there was still a little bit of that culture of like, if someone asks you how you're doing, you say, I'm doing great.
[00:15:54] Everything is fantastic, business is good, and that's it. That's the story you need to be showing and that's not my vibe. So I tried to show up that way and I even had, this is embarrassing, I had a necklace at the time that even said like Girl boss on it. I mean I was really trying to embrace it and you were one of the first people that I let like see a little bit of the real Sarah and you really encouraged me to keep showing up that way.
[00:16:21] So. I, I don't think of you, even though I was intimidated by you, and I continue to be intimidated by how well you do all of the things that you do, but I know that I can show up authentically around you. And I think that's an example of the kind of permission we need for that experimentation to have that innovative mindset.
[00:16:39] I know if you and I work on a project together, we can be really innovative because I don't mind showing you something that's not perfect, that's not finished, that's not right, because we can work on it from there. And I can trust that. I can share that with you. Well, and I think I came from that background where I made the mistake of being too authentic a few times in those spaces and was told not to do that.
[00:17:03] Right? Mm-Hmm. And so, like you got the feedback of like, no, no, I got the feedback. Don't be authentic, don't do that. And which is the opposite of what you gave me. Oh, well that's why, right? Mm-Hmm. That's why, because I didn't wanna. Do that to someone else. Oh, right. That's a struggle. That's a struggle when you're being your authentic self.
[00:17:21] And then someone saying, don't do that. Don't do that. So you really got feedback that was like, no, no. You're too authentic. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think any woman can relate to being told they're too much. Right. We've all heard that once or twice. But the idea that somebody really told you like, no, no, don't show up that authentically.
[00:17:36] Wow. Right. Hmm. Yeah. Well, I love it. Callie now says I'm too much. She says it. She says it about herself and I love that. Yes. Callie. Callie. I love ca. I wanna be Callie when I grow up. I love Callie. So I know Hannah's over here going where are we on the script?
[00:17:56] You wanna realize in? Yeah. No, there's a lot to kind of go back on. We've started with TEDx and we've gone to more of just being authentic as yourself and it'll. Have you grow, but just kinda looking back, by accepting your failures as growth or looking at it as growth Mm-hmm.
[00:18:15] But also finding new ways to present your idea for your TEDx. You were able to create an impressive TEDx talk, which has. Gotten, what did we say, a hundred thousand? Over a hundred thousand? Yeah. Or a hundred thousand views. But with the Hummingbird effect, we some, we are looking at the small changes that you didn't know were gonna come of that.
[00:18:35] So do you have any that came of this that you weren't expecting at all, but you can relate back to those decisions and those changes that you made? Yeah, absolutely. So one of the small changes that ended up having a big effect is. The decision to focus on that one page that we talked about in the beginning.
[00:18:53] The big effect that that's had is I get hired to do keynotes now all the time of helping groups create a one page plan. And it's not just around goal setting, but I get nonprofits that hire me. Can you help us turn our giant strategic plan into a one page plan that we can share with multiple stakeholders that everyone feels a part of?
[00:19:12] Associations? Can you help us create a one page plan that all of our members can get behind companies? You know, can you come to our. Annual retreat or a shareholder meeting and help us get clear what does it take to accomplish a really big goal? And, and can you talk about the one page plan? I was not expecting that.
[00:19:28] I, I hoped that the TEDx. Would give me some credibility. Right. I've joked that the TEDx is another PhD that folks can get right. These days. Right. So I, I was hoping for some credibility, some ethos from doing it right. I wasn't necessarily picturing that it would directly connect me to a way that I could support people in the way that it has.
[00:19:48] And that's been a really beautiful, I think it's, it's a testament to that alignment, being willing to experiment. Until I had that alignment, I would talk about that TEDx. Anytime anywhere. You could take me on vacation to Paris and somebody could be like, oh, we're at this beautiful spot. We're having wine.
[00:20:05] Oh, tell me about your TEDx. And I would be excited to do so. Right? It wouldn't be like, oh no, no, I'm off the clock. Like let's, my husband would be like, oh, here she goes. 'cause I would be like ready to go. So I finding something that I genuinely love that much, that ties all my work together. It took time.
[00:20:20] It, it ended up being simple, but it took a long time to get it to be that simple. But the effect that that small tweak of not just talking about professional development but situating it into this one page has led to a lot of really cool work. . And so what would you say you've learned from it?
[00:21:04] Ooh, well, I'm, I haven't told this story yet, but I'll share it with you for Wendy. I struggled to figure out what to wear, and the reason I don't talk about that a lot is because I. I don't love that women get asked questions that sometimes men don't ask. Like no one's gonna be like, if my husband did a TEDx, no one's gonna be like, how'd you decide what to wear?
[00:21:26] Right. But that's maybe something we ask women. So I hesitate to bring this up, but it's very relevant. I went through so many outfits and I even rented a couple outfits from like a, a newly or a Rent the runway type of service and just nothing felt like me and. I, I really couldn't decide who I wanted to show up as.
[00:21:47] There's this great quote that's like when a woman says she has nothing to wear, it just means there's nothing in her closet that looks like how she wants to feel that day. And that was it. I had clothes, but nothing that felt like me, and I was really struggling with it. And I called my sister. I was like, I need to come raid your closet.
[00:22:01] You know? And of course, because it's me and I, it was like two days away at this point, and I really needed to figure out something. So my sister asked me what my favorite outfit was, and without skipping a beat, I was like, well, my black leather jacket, but I can't wear that. Of course you can, and you did.
[00:22:16] So a lot of TEDx speakers do a great job of showing up really professionally and wearing, you know, like a suit or something, and. I was speaking a lot about my experience as an entrepreneur and a journalist, and a lot of times in those spaces I wear my black leather jacket because am I allowed to say this on this podcast?
[00:22:32] It makes me feel like a badass, right? Yeah. Like it just makes me feel like I'm here and I can do important things. And so I wore black jeans, my black boots that I have had for years that I wear all the time in my black leather jacket. And it made me feel really confident. And I remember showing the outfit to my husband being like, okay, I think I'm gonna wear this.
[00:22:51] And he was like. And he'd seen me try on 15,000 at this point. Right. So he was very like, is that appropriate for a TEDx? Not wanting to say like, aren't you supposed to wear a suit? I could see the, we've been together for a long time, so I could see what he wasn't saying. Right. He wasn't muting his face, as we say.
[00:23:09] And I was like, you know what, actually I don't want your opinion. I feel really good. I'm gonna wear, I'm gonna wear this, so I just need you to tell me it looks great. And he was like, it looks great. Yeah. So, so I, I know that sounds like a really small thing, but what I learned from that is. Even if I had showed up and everybody else's outfit had been really fancy, I think I still would've felt pretty good.
[00:23:30] Versus if I had decided to wear one of those outfits that didn't feel like me. Mm-hmm. And then I had gotten up there and like I was telling Wendy, those flashlight lights were in my eyes. I wasn't getting feedback from the audience. Would I have had some of that support and comfort that I had from like being in my favorite outfit and feeling comfortable in my favorite shoes?
[00:23:47] I don't know. Like that really could have affected how I delivered that talk because I ended up kind of wearing my favorite armor, if you will. And so I, I learned from that that I, I just really wanna continue trying to show up to spaces in a way that I feel really comfortable. And I did wear a purple shirt for you today, Wendy.
[00:24:05] Thank you. Because I, I love your brand so much, but yeah, a lot of times you're, I think if that's something that's important to you. Recognizing that it's okay to value that. To value kind of your comfort and your preferences over maybe others' expectations. Right. That it's okay to lean into that. So I think that was maybe my biggest takeaway from the experience.
[00:24:24] I like that, that takeaway a lot. That's a, that's pretty awesome. Nice way to look at it as well. So how has that changed your perspective on maybe other things that you're doing for marketing yourself as a speaker? Mm-Hmm. Ooh. So my marketing is an interesting space to be in because unlike a lot of the clients you work with, I'm a pretty small operation.
[00:24:48] So it's just me. And I know you work with some thought leadership groups too, but a lot of times you're dealing with company brands that it's a lot of folks. With my brand, it's Larry Long Jr. Says this. It's three people. Me, myself, and I, and when I'm managing my own brand. I have to think about how much of it I want to be me, and how much of it I want to be the thought leadership, the points that I'm trying to share.
[00:25:12] So like me is in my face and thought leadership is in things like the one page plan. And there was a time where I would've leaned more toward the thought leadership. Oh no, no, don't make it about me. Make it about that, right? But what we see resonating with people right now is the authenticity, and that's a genuine value of mine.
[00:25:29] So I'm being authentic when I embrace that authenticity. And so something that I'm applying to my marketing law right now is like really showing up how I show up. And so three years ago, if I was gonna do Instagram reels or LinkedIn content, it would've been on days like this. Right. I literally used to have a goal in my head of if I'm dressing up and going somewhere and I've got makeup on my face and my hair isn't in a bun, I need to do at least two reels.
[00:25:52] Like that was one of the goals, and I don't do that anymore. Now it's like, oh, I'm in gym clothes. I guess I better go sit by the window. So I have some good lighting. But otherwise, it's like I've done Instagram reels with pimple stickers on before. And I've spoken a lot about women business owners, you know, feeling pressure not to show up as anything but perfect.
[00:26:11] And how we can make space and, and how that helps more women business owners to stay in this and be resilient if they're able to show up as themselves. And so showing up in my brand has me, not just this version of me, 'cause I don't always look like this, but like the version of me that you sometimes see when I drop off my kids at eight in the morning at school, right?
[00:26:29] Like. It's not pajamas, but it could be pajamas. You know, sometimes that makes it on Instagram and lately even on LinkedIn. And I've found that my brand has a certain tolerance for that. And I think what's important is that's not tips for everyone's brand. What it is instead is this idea that it's okay to make it yours.
[00:26:48] I'm not saying that everyone should show what they look like at any given point of the day. Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but I think it's the permission to figure out what works for you. Well, and I think I hear you saying, you know, to, to make it yours is also tied to that differentiation concept, right.
[00:27:06] Of what you know for you, it's personal, what differentiates you your life. Mm-Hmm. What you're doing, how you're pulling in the balance of your family and all of that into your business and your life. Mm-Hmm. But even for businesses, I think that advice to, you know. Be unique. Find your differentiation.
[00:27:29] Yeah. Don't just show up the way you're expected to show up. Mm-Hmm. All the time. Mm-Hmm. It's so true. Take some risk. Mm-Hmm. So expand on that for me a little bit with what advice you would give others out of this. Yes. I love, so, well, one, if you have any questions about this, my advice is talk to Wendy. Two.
[00:27:49] With differentiation. I think folks, a lot of times they feel really nervous of, oh, no, no, no, we don't. We don't want to say no to anybody. We're for everyone. Anyone can hire us. If we talk too much about what makes us different, we're gonna, you know, only be interesting to this audience and not this one.
[00:28:05] And I get being afraid of that because you're afraid that you might turn away business. But I have found that really focusing on who you wanna serve and then talking about how you're different for that group. It actually doesn't limit who you're gonna work with. It really opens doors because it makes it so much more clear for people.
[00:28:21] Like, oh, I understand. Okay. So if I know that Hannah is a marketing strategist, when some I meet somebody and Hannah can solve their problem, it's easier for me to recommend Hannah. But if Hannah is somebody who can, you know, help brands to succeed, okay, well I'm gonna have more trouble identifying when there's a problem that Hannah can solve.
[00:28:38] So a lot of the work I've done to try to differentiate. Early in my career, I would've been scared of some of it because it makes me a little bit more specific, and I would've been afraid that that would mean, oh, I'm, I'm saying that I'm not for everyone. Whereas now I understand it as I'm helping people understand what problems I can solve and how I do it differently than other folks who they might wanna hire.
[00:28:57] And it's not competitive. I have a favorite phrase, which is, you can't compete with me because I genuinely want you to win, too. I, it's not about being competitive, it's about being really clear about. Who I am and what I can do, so that if I can help you, I'm there to help you. And if not, I know so many people tell me what you need.
[00:29:14] I'm gonna help you find the person that can help you. We've talked about it in our past episodes of being willing to find that differentiator and really like, just take it by the reins and ride it because it, it does resonate with your people and it does make a big change.
[00:29:32] But also knowing when. To draw the line, but, and my question was gonna be like, how have you done it? But you've, you've, you've gotten there. No. I'm so glad you asked that. That was a great question, Hannah, because it lets me share something I haven't yet, which is. What about when you're trying to find that differentiation?
[00:29:46] Right. What we're talking about right now is a TEDx that I did, where I found that I talked about the one page goal. It was, I got really clear, we got simple, but that was a process and hopefully I've highlighted that it was a process and it took some time. The same is true for my brand differentiation, so really figuring out who I serve, what that target audience looks like, how I can speak to that target audience.
[00:30:06] It wasn't. Like filling out a tax form. And I think a lot of people think it is, it's like they go and buy something and they're like, okay, I'll do this, I'll do this, I'll do this, and it'll add up. And okay, here's my target audience. And it just doesn't work that way. It's not that easy, right? You and you have to experiment a little.
[00:30:20] And so when I meet women, business owners and professional speakers who are women especially, they're so nervous about this part. How do I describe what I do and who I serve so that I can have a perfect elevator speech? That way when I meet someone at a networking event, I can tell them exactly what I do, and then they will wanna sign me as a client.
[00:30:36] And it's like, okay, well that does not exist, right? That elevator speech, let's lock up, right? If we let that go, that elevator speech does not exist. Instead, why don't you try it out, try it, see how it goes, pay attention to the results. If you need to pivot, you can, but let's get some data. Earlier Wendy said, it's the old idea of we gotta do everything right.
[00:30:57] We don't, it's not about right or wrong, everything is data. When I started as a professional speaker, I had a whole section of my website that was devoted to a topic that I really thought people wanted to hire me about, and nobody really interacted with it or clicked on it. So I got rid of it, but not after trying to start a Friday series where I posted it about it on Instagram and LinkedIn, you know, every Friday for weeks.
[00:31:18] But then I realized it wasn't tracking and I took it off. When I have an idea for a talk that I really wanna develop, sometimes I'll put it in my speaker catalog and see if anyone buys it. And then if they do, I can always develop it. But it's about that approach to experimentation versus like trying to fill out a tax form and being like, okay, I got my target audience, let's go.
[00:31:38] We used the word earlier surprises too. Mm. Which I love because there's so many surprises around the corner and you just don't know what's about to happen. And you experienced it with coming up with your topic. You experienced it with deciding what to wear. Are there any other surprises kind of along the way?
[00:31:59] 'cause that's a lot about, that's a lot of what the Hummingbird Effect is about too, is these surprisingly. Big changes that happen mm-Hmm. That you might not really be prepared for yeah. So. I think one of the reasons I've always been able to deal with surprises is because I have this approach of it's all experimentation.
[00:32:20] You were joking earlier, you know, until you get to a finish line. Well, who knows if I'm really gonna get to it. I, I don't imagine a day where I'm really done with this work. I have some big goals, but to me, there isn't like a flag on a mountaintop that I'm trying to work toward necessarily. That once I get there, I'm gonna be like, okay, check done.
[00:32:37] And so because of that, I am embracing the process a lot, which means when surprises come along, when I get a group that says, Hey, we love your talk on a one page goal, but could you help us adapt it for local government? We really want folks to feel included in the development of a strategic plan, but we feel like there's struggling with the process of that.
[00:32:57] Can you use your one page plan to talk about strategic plans in local government? Well, I don't know. I dunno about that surprise, but how about I say I, I think that that's really interesting. Let's jump on a call and talk about it. And then I just ask a hell of a lot of questions until I really feel like I understand their problem.
[00:33:14] And then to what Hannah and I were talking about earlier. I either recognize, yes, I can solve this problem, or now I know who can solve this problem for you and I can help build my community and strengthen that community by sharing that with somebody else. Yeah, you're so great at that. And so let's talk about the women's business community because I have another hummingbird effect in mind that you and I have worked on together, and you tell the story so well.
[00:33:39] And so I, I'll kind of lead you into this one. So when you and I were serving, you were. President of Nabo Greater Raleigh, and I was President elect. Mm-Hmm. We had this idea and we founded the North Carolina Women Business Owners Hall of Fame. You're giving me too much credit. It was your idea. Well, it, it was, it was a surprise.
[00:34:01] You heard about it. I heard about you heard about another state that had it Right. And you brought it to me and you were like, this other state has a hall of fame for their women business owners. Exactly. We need one. Yeah. And and so we did that, but I feel like there was a hummingbird effect that happened that led us to need that in the state of North Carolina.
[00:34:20] And it goes way back much longer before you and I with a group of women. I. Who could not get financing without a male co-signer? Yes. I'm gonna let you continue the story. Oh, I'm almost, almost giddy. I'm so excited. I didn't know we were gonna get to talk about this today, but if I, you know how people say like, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
[00:34:41] When they talk about something they can talk about in their sleep, this is that thing for me. So what a lot of folks don't know, and what I didn't know until I joined navo. Is that pretty recently women business owners were required to have male relatives co-sign, even if they were 100% owners of their business, even if they were in good financial standing, even if they had a flower shop.
[00:35:00] And what they were trying to get signed is a loan so that they could buy a van, and the flower shop was a hundred percent this theirs. And maybe they weren't married anymore, maybe their husband had passed away, maybe their father had passed away and they had to get their high school age son to cosign.
[00:35:17] It wasn't. Always enforced, but it wasn't made illegal until this date. Do you wanna guess what year it became illegal for banks to acquire male women or women business owners to have male relatives co-sign on things?
[00:35:29] My first thought was to, you know, go early. Yeah. But then I feel like it's a trick question, so I'm gonna try to meet in the middle and say like. 1972. That was an amazing guess. That's a great guess. And I have literally had people guess like, I don't know, not right, 1850 and it's like, 1850. We got a lot of other things we needed to vote on before we got to this.
[00:35:52] So it was 1988. Oh. That it became illegal for banks to require, so all the nineties, which, so you were very close. Which is just crazy. And I put it into context for people, like it was very close to the year that we no longer put baby in a corner. Because dirty dancing came out like it was around the time of dirty dancing, that women business owners could still be required to have this male cosigner on their documentation.
[00:36:13] On their legal. And I always talk about it because I started my business in 95 and my first business loan, I had to have a male cosigner. Now they didn't require it. Mm-Hmm. But you go through the process and you start to realize what's gonna make this easier. Mm. Yeah. Right. And so whether it was required in the nineties or not, I experienced it still in the nineties.
[00:36:35] That was very hard for a woman. To get a loan on her own. Yeah. And so there are two reasons I love to talk about it. One is what Wendy just alluded to, which is we talk a lot about how women don't get enough financing. When we look at the pie of where, whether it's VC money, angel money, like whatever it is, women are not getting enough financing, right?
[00:36:56] Women business owners are not getting a big enough piece of that pie. And we love to blame women. We love to say, well, let's have a class about how to negotiate. Let's have a class on how to pitch to investors. How about we talk about the systemic effects? If I knew a woman business owner when I was growing up, that woman business owner could have been required to have male relatives cosign on things.
[00:37:18] So my understanding of my options, my financing options is based on that. That was so fricking recent. And the fact that we don't talk enough about the systems in place and, and the background and the relationship that women have with financing, some of it's very empowered. Women were used to turning to their communities, getting revenue and generating revenue way before they went to get investment or financing.
[00:37:45] And, and those are strengths. They are different approaches. And so recognizing that is really important to me. So that's one. But two is that in North Carolina, in the state of North Carolina, a group of women business owners got together in 1978, so 10 years before this became illegal, and they started talking about how to change it.
[00:38:06] There was an ad put in the Raleigh Times by a woman named Mary Diener and it basically said like, Hey, here I am at Park Office Drive, like please come meet at my office and we'll talk about being a woman business owner. And that's what started the Nabo Greater Raleigh chapter well over 40 years ago.
[00:38:21] And so for over 10 years, women in this state. Went to DC and advocated for what is now known as HR 50 50. It passed under the Reagan administration, and one of the many things it did was make it illegal for banks to require the male relative co-signer. And so the idea that as a woman business owner in North Carolina, I'm connected to this legacy of women like Mary Diener and these other women who advocated for something that has had a direct impact on my life as someone who uses a credit line in her business and has sought other kinds of financing.
[00:38:54] It's a really incredible legacy to be a part of, and I'm glad to know about it. Well, and it's, it's such a hummingbird effect that we're sitting here today and we've had seven years of winners of inductees to the Hall of Fame. And you're one this year, so congratulations. Thank you. Right. And you know, you're living that legacy that I remember telling you, Sarah, when I started coming to Nabo these ladies.
[00:39:25] Like I was just so in awe, right? Mm-Hmm. I was so in awe of these ladies and their stories just are not anywhere being told. Like to even find much about Mary Diener prior to her winning hall of fame was really yes. Really difficult. We struggled with that. So Mary Diener, the woman that we brought up who put that ad in the Raleigh Times Mm-hmm.
[00:39:43] She was the first president of Nabo Greater Raleigh. She, we think was the first woman business owner in RTP. And yet when we Googled her, we really couldn't find a lot of information other than a, an obituary that did a wonderful job of mentioning her family, but didn't talk as much about her advocacy work and, and her entrepreneurial pursuits related to women and entrepreneurs.
[00:40:04] Now if you Google her thanks to the Hall of Fame, you get to watch a video that talks about, shows some of the newspaper clippings. Her son worked with me directly to pull some of that together when she won the Hall of Fame award. That's now preserved forever. I mean, the idea that. It's so much more about recognizing the individual.
[00:40:25] It's about the next generation getting to hear these stories. 'cause otherwise they're gonna get lost. Well, and I think you and I as moms, that's part of what our vision was, right? It was like, we want the younger generations to hear these stories and Mm-hmm. See these ladies and understand where, where we came from, where, you know, this, it was illegal to get a loan without a, a.
[00:40:48] Male co-signer in the family, and these women through today have just like. Risen above so much. Yeah. And I think you, you also mentioned that, you know, it's kind of a superpower that women actually were successful despite all of that. Yeah. And that's so important, that part of it, that piece. Yeah. We offer that framing, that very crucial framing.
[00:41:13] And I think of one of my favorite example is, is Mama Dips the restaurant in Chapel Hill that's so famous. And Mildred Council the woman. Yes. Behind Mama Dips. And when she was recognized and we put that video together, thanks to so many people who worked on preserving her story, we were able to put in this tidbit that was like the day that she opened.
[00:41:32] She used the proceeds from lunch to buy the groceries. She needed to serve dinner. To dinner, right. And. That story of resilience and how to survive and thrive, even when the traditional financing options might not be available to you, is so important as we help the next generation feel like they can see themselves in entrepreneurship, and that's part of it.
[00:41:54] You can go on the website and you, it's like. Any video you wanna see any from any industry. If you wanna look at real estate, if you wanna look at construction, if you wanna see women who are born in North Carolina, if you wanna see women who moved to North Carolina, who are first generation Americans, like there are all these stories.
[00:42:10] They're all there. The only common thread is that these are women entrepreneurs who have a tire connection to North Carolina. And otherwise the stories are also different. The backgrounds are also different. The strengths and, and stories are also different. So it's a really beautiful way to help hopefully anyone who's interested in entrepreneurship to really see a part of themselves in it.
[00:42:31] Yeah. Well, I thank you for amplifying the story, Sarah. Our favorite word that goes back with us for quite a while. I know. I can help us smile when you said it. I love that word. Well, and I gotta thank you. 'cause you said the Hummingbird Effect. I mean, you had this idea. Look at where it is now. Look at where it is.
[00:42:48] I know. It's amazing. I remember when we honored secretary of State Elaine Marshall, when she received the award, just looking up at her with all thinking when I had to do the LLC paperwork, like it has her signature on everything. You know, I know I'm in the room with her. Like, it's just the, the effect of that and like the way that you see those wing beats kind of amplify out.
[00:43:08] It's just really beautiful when I think, you know, we. We still are in awe. I mean, I'm in awe of you. I'm in awe of all the, the younger generation who are making such a big difference in the world today that they're baby on Maggie King. Maggie. King Maggie, who we're honoring amazing this year. I mean, her story and what she's done, and you wanna talk about authenticity?
[00:43:30] Absolutely. I mean, she talks to people in this community and then also talks to Kelly Clarkson on Kelly Clarkson show, and then acts. Like it's normal to do both with the same personality. Like she's amazing. And so, yes, we're, it's not just stories from a long time ago, it's also, you know, who's in this space today and doing big things.
[00:43:50] Well, and I think of Gabby, I mean, with Gabby's grounds and, her organization that's doing so much. Mm-Hmm. I just think I think we're, we're really, we've really done something special that you know. I'm very proud of and write you with me's kind. You use the pronoun we when you talk about it because you are really the one who championed it.
[00:44:14] I just kind of, for the rest of my life, you've got a. Wendy wants to do it and she wants my support. Sure. Just tell me what time to be there. Well, I just love, it's another example of Hummingbird Effect and you know, to see where it came from and how these little differences in the world led us to be here today doing such a wonderful thing.
[00:44:34] A hundred percent. And just to bring it back to branding, I wanna call it something you did very early on, you said, this isn't a business award. It's a legacy award, and when we give this award and when we create a selection committee process for, you know, we have this whole process for a committee that gets together that's independent from the board, that makes the selections based on all the nominations that the organization receives.
[00:44:57] Some of the criteria isn't just related to how successful was this person in business, it's what did their advocacy efforts look like? How are they supporting and mentoring the next generation of entrepreneurs? Have they done any advocacy that helps to support. Policies around women, business owners, it's, it's really a multifaceted application.
[00:45:14] And you wanna talk about a hummingbird effect. That was a early decision you made. Oh, it was huge. Yeah. Early on about the position of this organization and what it recognized, and that we're still seeing the effects of that now in a really positive way, I think. Well, I'm so glad we got to talk about this.
[00:45:30] Thank you so much. Mm-Hmm. It's great to have you here on the show today. Thank you so much for giving us your time and giving our listeners your time. And to everyone out there, thank you for your time today and go forth and find your hummingbird effect.