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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Oh, we got a different podcast for you today. In the world of Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Larry. It's a What's popping Edition.
LT: Don't you love the What's Popping? I love the What's Popping?
DC: Well, I, I really enjoy our, What's Popping, um, and what, What's Popping additions do for us, Larry, is it allows us to stay true to the reason why we are doing these podcasts to begin with and why we've been doing it for seven years. And that is to build better marketers who build better marketing. That's why we do these things.
And, uh, I don't know if you guys are familiar with a, uh, a sports show brand nerd, but it's called PTI. Pardon the interruption. We're just gonna shout out. PTI. Um, will Bond and, and Kornheiser. These are the co-hosts, but from time to time when either of these [00:01:00] gentlemen is out, usually it's Kornheiser who's out and Will Bond is in, they'll have a go-to person that is always like right here. It's like tapping the right arm for the picture. Come on in here and it's fill in Frank. Okay. Frank Isla. Frank Isla, New York Media. You guys will know Frank Isola. He's always there with Will Bond and you don't even miss Kornheiser. You're like, these guys are so good Brand Nerds.
We have that today. We have actually the third, unofficial third co-host of Brands, Beats, and Bytes. I cannot wait to hear from him. That said, Brand Nerds, uh, you're familiar with the phrase performance marketing. It's a really big deal, has been a big deal for many, many moons now. But there's a new game in town that not many of us really [00:02:00] understand or know about. Performance marketing has become the golden child of our marketing efforts and in, in gobbling up much like Pacman and Pacwoman, uh, of media budgets because it gets marketers data that's closer to the point of purchase is trackable. This is what makes it so sexy. Well, Brand Nerds, the new game in town is retail and commerce media networks, and that is what we're gonna talk about here today. And by the way, Brand Nerds, this is a companion, companion podcast, Jack Meyers. Hopefully you've heard Jack Meyers, he was our first drop of the year 2026. If you've not heard it, go check out Jack Meyers. This was the companion piece to Jack Meyers because the guest that we have [00:03:00] today is launching a podcast with Jack Meyer, and you all should go check that out.
Larry, who do we have in the building with us today? Who? Who is our fill in, Frank, who is it?
LT: Whoa, DC When it comes to anything media related, like you said, our first call is to our great friend Tim Spengler, and he is much better than Phil and Frank because he's with us, so we're not even filling in. He's with us and he makes the two of us actually a whole lot better.
DC: I agree.
LT: So welcome, Tim.
Tim Spengler: Greetings, fellas. It's great as always to be with you.
LT: Yes. Okay. So for you avid Brand Nerds, Tim is someone you should recognize since as DC alluded to, he's been a guest on Brands, Beats and Bytes more than anyone else. The reason Tim is our first call with media related issues is simple, he is one of the most respected and accomplished C-Suite media execs out there. Currently, Tim is co-founder and managing partner of Scale Team [00:04:00] Advisory, a consulting firm where they partner with media, entertainment, sports, and related tech businesses to support their growth objectives. Before STA Tim led the very successful media agency initiative and also a CEO of Magda Global, literally heading up media buying for inner public around the world. As DC said, we see this as a companion piece to our first podcast of 2026 with Jack Meyers. Since, as we mentioned last week, Tim and Jack have started a podcast called Lead Human, which debuts any day now in January of 2026.
Tim, before we get into What's Popping subject of today, would you like to tell the Brand Nerds more about Lead Human and why the Brand Nerds really need to check it out?
Tim Spengler: Sure. Love to. Thank you. Um, so, and I think it's a topic, Larry, you can totally relate to since, you know, with your day's leading teams DC I'm not sure quite as much. 'Cause in the nineties he was running around yelling at everybody to obey. [00:05:00] That's not a really 'lead human' kind of mo, but
DC: True, true.
Tim Spengler: No, and that I think everyone knows that is a Hall of Fame tagline and brand pivot in the marketing anals led by you. So it's with much respect that I,
DC: thank you.
Tim Spengler: ...tease you in that way with that one word being it all.
Um, but see, seriously, so it's funny, the, the genesis of Jack Myers and I getting together to, to create Lead Human was based on the topic that we're gonna talk about today, retail media, commerce media. Jack had as usual, written a great piece that I read, and given what the three of us were working on, I wanted to be smarter.
And so I said, Hey, Jack, you know, can we grab lunch? We had lunch, had a great time. I've known Jack for 40 years, and, um, on the train ride home, I, I had taken a selfie and I put it out on LinkedIn, literally on a Friday, and we had like [00:06:00] 15,000 people look at it over the weekend. And I said, Hey, Jack, they like us as a pairing, I guess.
And he said, I got an idea, I'm gonna call you. And the next thing he calls me and says, I've been doing this podcast. Called, you know, Profiles in Leadership. I wanna pivot it and make it more about today's empathy and leading in this world of machines and data and dashboards. And, and it was a topic that was near and dear to my heart as well.
And so we've been often running to create it. It's gonna run on the Acast Creator Network, so we're gonna get some nice marketing and distribution. Uh, it starts third week of January. And, uh, last thing I'll say is we've had some fun guests already. Um, uh, Evan Shapiro, the self-proclaimed media cartographer, he's the one, I think it's the best visual in the last five years at least, maybe more, where he took the media, all the media companies and put them in like a, a satellite play, like, like a planetary [00:07:00] system.
The size of the planet was based on the size of the market cap. Hmm. And so you saw what really mattered in 2020. Which was how big, you know Amazon was, how big meta was, how big Facebook was, how big Apple was. Forget these legacy media companies that were one, they were moons around around the planets of these other companies.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: That was 20, 25 years later, those big companies, those tech companies have doubled or tripled in size.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: And the traditional companies are flat to down.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: The traditional companies, two of which had fired Evan for prognosticating the future in a way they didn't want to hear. So he was, he very publicly talks about, was shown the door.
Anyway, so that's a very fun one. Our second one is the, probably the leading media agency exec today, Dave Penske leads Publis Media. He has 65,000 people that [00:08:00] report to him around the world. As I think about the greatest media leaders since media spun out of the creative agency, so it was full service, you think about the Mad Men era that was full service media sitting inside Creative, 1995, the media spun out, created its own separate companies, and I think he's probably one of the three greatest leaders since that era of advertising the media side began. So anyway.
LT: Wow.
Tim Spengler: Two guests I'm very proud of. And that's our show.
LT: That's awesome. Uh, I can't wait to, to listen to those. Those sound great. And we're, uh, we're thrilled for you and Jack and I we know you guys are great duo. It's gonna be awesome to hear. All right. So
DC: Brand say, can I just say something real quickly before you proceed? Oh, please proceed.
Go ahead. Brand Nerds, You should also know that Tim Spangler has recommended some of the best guests that we have ever had. On Brands Beats and Bytes and one of them we just dropped at the end of last year. If you've not listened to it, you should go back and listen to it. [00:09:00] Is Jim, is it Trebilcok? Is that what it is?
Tim Spengler: Trebilcock? Yeah.
DC: Trebilcock. Yeah. Trebilcock, yeah. So go check that out. Uh, so Jim, it was also known as Jim T was the former CMO over at Dr. Pepper. It may have been Schwepps at the time. Uh, I don't know if he was there when it was, uh, Keurig, Dr. Pepper, but he was, he lead, he was Oh, Keurig. Dr. Thank you. Yeah. So thank you Tim very much for recommending guests to Brands Beats and Bytes..
We really appreciate that.
Tim Spengler: That's what friends do and you're quite welcome.
LT: Right? Yes, we do. We, we can't thank you enough for that, Tim. All right, Brand Nerds, So let's get now into our, What's Poppin subject for today, which as DC alluded to at the outset, is retail and commerce media networks. A group of us with Tim is the lead, have spent some considerable time, energy, and effort on a project in this area.
So we do know from what we speak here, if you don't know much or anything about it and you are in marketing or media, you need to [00:10:00] know about it. Mm-hmm. We plan on the three of us having a free flowing conversation, discussing retail and commerce media from the many sides of this, including brands, merchants, media, and consumers, and more.
So first before we get, uh, go any further, we've gotta provide you with definitions. Okay? So, retail media networks and the acronym is RMN, are advertising platforms run by retailers like Amazon, Walmart, Kroger, that let brands buy ad space on the retailers, websites, apps, and even in store, leveraging the retailer's valuable first party customer data such as purchase history, browsing behavior, et cetera, for highly targeted ads at the point of purchase, creating new revenue for these retailers and driving sales for brands.
They connect brands directly with shoppers ready to buy, using data for precision marketing, both onsite sponsored products and offsite, making them a rapidly growing advertising channel. So that's [00:11:00] the definition of what a retail media network is. So now let's take you through what a commerce media network is also known, known as the acronym of CMM.
It is a digital advertising platform that uses a company first party data and like purchase history, browsing, et cetera, to let brands target relevant ads across multiple channels, extending beyond just retailers like Amazon to industries like travel, such as United Airlines, finance, chase, and healthcare, creating new revenue streams by monetizing valuable audience insights to drive sales and loyalty.
So let's be clear, retail media, media networks are part of commerce. Media networks, commerce media networks are bus are are bigger. These networks, so commerce, media networks, blend e-commerce, retail media and programmatic advertising, connecting advertisers with consumers at the point of purchase and beyond, both online and offline with closed loop measurement for effectiveness.
Tim, anything to add here as we [00:12:00] talk about those definitions?
Tim Spengler: No, I mean, that's it. I think I'll just underscore that. So it's first party shopper data that both sides have, whether it's a retailer or it's some other business. And then they take that audience that they now have and they run ad they sell that audience to advertisers who wanna buy ads targeting anonymously.
The, those audiences, chocolate buyers, uh, new car shoppers. I mean, we could pick a hundred topics and, uh, frequent flyers, you know, and the ads run both on their properties, meaning on their website. Uh, you know, on the product pages, maybe in the store, certainly in the app, and then off media when you can buy those audiences anywhere else they are and so on. Social platforms.
LT: Yeah.
Tim Spengler: Uh, you know, in, in search in anywhere they are. So it's both on their sites and you know, on their [00:13:00] own stuff. And then the bigger growing areas, now just those people anywhere else that they go.
LT: Good, thanks for highlighting that and adding that. That's key. So branders. So you might be thinking, okay, great, that's nice, but what does that really mean?
So brand's, not sure if you know this, but we're gonna take you through what the dollars are behind all this. So in the United States in 2025, the commerce media spend was 67 plus billion dollars. Yes. 67 plus billion dollars in 2025. That was nearly 15% of total US ad spend. In 2025, it was the fastest growing of anything in media at 15%.
So just to give you context, in the US in 2025, advertisers will uh, spent about $50 billion on traditional TV and roughly 80 plus billion if you, you include streaming tv. So Commerce [00:14:00] media is already nearly $70 billion line item. So bigger than linear TV on its own and quickly catching up to all tv. So that's just incredibly huge.
And globally, commerce media has already overtaken TV in total ad spend. So this stuff is mammoth and we wanted to have this conversation 'cause that's what's popping here. Brand nerd, A lot of people, uh, understand the, uh, the huge value in this and are already there. But it feels like it's under the radio radar guys as, especially as it.
Two full conversations in the full marketing arena. So hence we're having this conversation. So, uh, clearly this is a booming business and growing and if you are involved in any part of the marketing media world, it is something. If it's not relevant for you yet, it certainly will be soon. Hence, we're having this conversation.
DC, what say you?
DC: Alright, I've [00:15:00] got a question actually, a couple questions for Tim. As we get into this. We know that there are many acolytes in the marketing space, acolytes of performance marketing.
Tim Spengler: Yep.
DC: There's always something next. Tim, my first question is, why should acolytes of performance marketing now be looking towards retail and commerce media as the next horizon?
Why should they be doing that?
Tim Spengler: How about this? It provides scale and precision across the full funnel.
LT: Wow.
Tim Spengler: That enough of a reason.
LT: Yeah.
DC: That's good enough. Yeah.
Tim Spengler: Yeah.
DC: That, that, that's good enough.
LT: Yeah. And just to, just to put a capper on that, you don't, you usually have to choose one. That's what Tim's really saying here.
You're getting both right, Tim?
Tim Spengler: Well, it's four things, right? Scale and precision. [00:16:00] Top of the funnel, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel. So let's call it all five.
DC: Yep.
Tim Spengler: Right. Let's call it all, let's call it all five. And, uh, it is changing advertising because of that precision and the scale.
LT: Wow.
DC: Great.
Okay. Second que Larry, any anything to add to that?
LT: No, keep going.
DC: Second question. Alright, so second question. Tim, you talked about 1995. The full service agencies carved out the media
Tim Spengler: Right.
DC: Part. And, uh, the reason why they did that, uh, in part is most of the money in marketing is in media. That's, that's what it was in 95.
That's what it is today. That's what it's going to be likely tomorrow.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: So that's why it was carved off because you couldn't have some genius, you know, executive creative director making decisions on a highly quantitative [00:17:00] model in media that was into the billions of dollars and by now trillions of dollars.
This is no disrespect to the ECDS out here, or, or the chief creative officers. No disrespect, but just too much money and too many analytics at play. Now, connecting my question to that point about carving out these media people, for those that are in the marketing area on the client side, they're watching this retail and commerce media, and some of them, Tim, are thinking, you know what?
I can take my assets, put them together, and just walk into some other brand or the, the, there might be a company that has access to data. I can just walk into a brand and convince them, 'Hey, you ought to be doing business with me' and bypass these media agencies. Why is that not possible? Or at least [00:18:00] not smart?
Tim Spengler: Right. Right. Yeah. So I think I would add to it, it, it got, um, carved away from the media from the creative, which by the way is still two thirds of the power of all marketing. So let's be
DC: Oh, yeah. Yep, yep.
Tim Spengler: Creative. Great. I'm a media guy. Creative leads. Okay. Creative leads. I spent my time in the one third, uh, so it's two thirds of the power most, the most of the time.
I would say it was around the complexity, not just the size, but the complexity media. What? And, and at the time, in 1995, you know what that complexity was? It wasn't the internet yet, right? Yeah. It was a cable that was blowing people's minds.
DC: Right. The
Tim Spengler: complexity was same number of magazines, same number of newspapers, same number of radio stations, right?
The complexity was, was pre-internet was around cable. Crazy. It is crazy to think this way now.
DC: Yeah, it is.
Tim Spengler: Right? So, but to answer, you know, so, so that's what it was. And back to your question, the [00:19:00] complexity of the, the advertising ecosystem now, which is data led and tech enabled. Okay? Mm. 70% of advertising spend goes through something that was data led and tech enabled.
That means, pipes. That means connections directly between buy sides and sell sides. It is automated. It is the word, programmatic is usually the word that's associated with it. Yeah. You can't go direct and make that happen. This isn't, you should buy the back cover of this issue of vogue because it's spring fashion.
Mm-hmm. So go by like this. Isn't that it it, it is. It is in the who, what, where, when, and why. It is hyper. Uh, it begins with the who and we are really getting to understand the who and, and we do that though in such an automated [00:20:00] way that direct selling to your question, DC mm-hmm. Is really not the way these budgets are deployed anymore or tracked.
So it's not just, oh, well just do that this way. No, no. It all has to fit into the beast. That is the now the analytics machine, right. That then spits out all of this in combination. So it's not like, it, it, it, there's a lot of reasons, uh, why this, you know, business has changed so much and why now that's how you have to do it.
LT: So, putting a capper on that, what you're saying, Tim, is that's a great, it's great explanation. If you were, like DC alluded to in his question, if you were to carve out something and say, ah, like let's just go to, I, I know the head of sales at Walmart. I'm just gonna, you know, I'm brand X and I'm gonna go to the to them and just do it.
Then all of a sudden you're messing everything up,
DC: Right.
LT: Because now you're taking that little piece out [00:21:00] and you, everything else has been coordinated fully programmatically, everything else wise. And then not only can, you can not track it, but you don't understand how it fits into the whole, because it's this outlier and it messes everything up.
Am I understanding that right?
Tim Spengler: Yeah, exactly. Deb, Deb Meyer as CMO of, of, uh, I remember the first time I heard this when she was CMO of General Motors said, you know what's key? It's gotta plug in. It was such a great, it was, it was such a great, simple, it doesn't plug in whatever your offering is. Right.
It's not gonna, it's, it can't, it can't be part of it.
LT: That's awesome. That's good.
DC: That's good, Larry.
LT: Yeah, no, that's great. Uh, you know, guys, uh, part of what, as we were learning this informa as we were learning this, and this is a while back. Now, it's, this is, uh, man, this is a year and a half ago when we really dug into this.
I was [00:22:00] thinking about D and I mentioned this to you and Tim, I mentioned this to you as well, if I'm a brand and I can now, especially a CPG brand, by the way. Mm-hmm. And let's just use Walmart E. Easy, right? So now all of a sudden I am able to, and I'm just gonna use my old brand Powerade. So now I can. Do a, um, a, a have a programmatic buy as part of what I do at Walmart, and now I can directly see first firsthand data as to who's buying power aid when they're doing it, demographics, psychographics, all the things that come with that for the purchase of Powerade.
And by the way, I'm sure that they can do it for the competitors, for Gatorade and everybody else. And so now I'm gleaning things that I can't get anywhere else because it's actual purchase data that we know is in essence, I'm gonna, I was gonna use the word foolproof. It's [00:23:00] 99% foolproof, right? That we know that there's that 1%.
So when I heard about this, I was like, wow, this is incredible from a brand standpoint to understand that data. Can you, can you guys, what, what are your thoughts about that?
Tim Spengler: Uh, DC You want me to go
DC: Please?
Tim Spengler: Uh, yes. It's not only who's buying it, but who's searching for it,
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: And who are the people who might be the most likely to next search for it, right?
So that's why we say top, middle, and bottom of the funnel. The signals are available across all different aspects of where people are in the consideration journey. And so that's why it's even more powerful. Um, and it every, you know, media planning. Now the connective tissue to media planning is this commerce data.
LT: Right? Mm-hmm.
Tim Spengler: We, when we interviewed Dave Penske, I was mentioning, he's our second guest on the [00:24:00] show, he said, we're, we're building everything. We we're talking about the vision, his future vision of their roadmap. Everything is around one word. He said, identity. That's the single word powering. I wish I knew how much money, 65,000 people around the world are planning, buying, and analyzing.
That's the single, that's the single word identity. And so this all feeds so, so much into that.
LT: Oof.
So typically, what are your thoughts about the brand side of this and gleaning that information? Because that's where I went to immediately. Because any brand that could really get for direct knowledge to be smarter, we, it's really hard to quantify that.
DC: It is. Uh, I'm gonna go back to these four words that you mentioned earlier, Tim, which I think came, uh, from this, uh, this guest that you just mentioned. On, uh, on your podcast, and that is data led tech enabled. [00:25:00]
LT: Yeah.
DC: So back, back in the day, Tim, you'll, you'll remember this, Larry, a as will you on the CPG side and just about any other company, but I'm just gonna use the CPG for example.
Uh, Larry and I were at Coca-Cola. We had different sources of data. So one source was Nielsen, so this was actually cases moved. So you can track what was actually bought, but then we had another, uh, panel of data that was about consumers saying what they consumed.
LT: Right, right.
DC: So they would talk about, yes, I've had this many Coca-Colas in a, in a given period, and there was always a delta between what was actually sold and what consumers claimed they consumed.
And what we used to call this, Tim, at and back of Coca-Cola, was virtual consumption. Virtual, virtual, that was the delta between what they actually consumed and what they said they consumed. And so what that brought to [00:26:00] mind back then is, uh, now we love consumers. We actually have, in our business, we have a seat, like an actual chair that we put up and say, that's the consumer in that chair.
You gotta listen to the consumer. But then also to be a contrarian here, do you want to know how you, you, you wanna know how you can tell if a consumer is lying? They're talking. Okay. That's why, this is why Steve Jobs did not listen to, to, to any research. So now we actually know, we know what people are actually doing, not just saying, because we've got this data, we, we've got this data because of the half of the data.
Tim, help the Brand Nerds understand how to parse it so that the data is actionable rather than overwhelming.
Tim Spengler: God, I wish I could answer that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I could answer [00:27:00] that specifically. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, I, I what, what I was gonna say, when you were first, when you were first setting this, this question up is that the reason we have this Perce precise versus these panels and credit card and shopping data is that people are logged in.
90% of people who shop at Kroger do do so through a loyalty card. Mm-hmm. Because they get something out of it.
DC: Yep, that's right.
Tim Spengler: So that's why Uck on a loyalty card. We all get that. So then what does Kroger get? They get 90% of all purchases nailed to the person. Amazon, I mean, Amazon, come on. Amazon. And Amazon is like, so of the 65 billion, Amazon's like 40 of it.
So, and, and Walmart's another five, so like two thirds.
LT: Wow.
Tim Spengler: So, um, they're, today's marketers are so performance, um, focused, but it's not just bottom of the funnel. So [00:28:00] they have signals, they are getting data across different behaviors, which are, which are the proxy for the person's mindset. And so they're able to tap into that and look at by creative what's driving what, so what needs to go and what needs to be doubled down.
But it's different signals. So I can't tell you exactly how, but I, it happens when they get different signals for different behaviors, which are connoting, where somebody is in their mind.
LT: Mm. That's deep.
DC: That's the, say that one more time, please, Tim.
Tim Spengler: That's good. So because we, we can be so precise based on what someone's behavior is.
The, the marketer, the agency who's, who's doing this for the marketer, with the marketer, has the ability to track where people are. If they're in a search mode, [00:29:00] they're exploring this. Mm-hmm. They're not buying it yet. Maybe they're searching for, for a a a, as Larry said before, a competitor's product. They, they're, they're in a search mode.
So they're exploring if they've just had three kids, maybe it's time to sell 'em a minivan ad like, so it's a where are they in their life cycle and the where they are, the signals about where they are upper, middle, and lower funnel Yeah. Are then being tracked by creative. Yeah. A, B and C or, you know, A is D now.
Yeah, right. AI and creative let's, we not even, we can, can go down that rabbit hole if you want, but like, so it's getting much more and more precise. And I just have to say it, it's so cliche. Edit this part out if you want, but remember John Watermaker, that famous retailer who said, I know that 50% of my advertising works, I just don't know which 50% he is, has a smile on his face as he rolls over in the [00:30:00] grave.
LT: Right?
Tim Spengler: And look, you look, I, I, I, I love the, I, I made most of my bones in the upper funnel building brands and breaking through through gravity. If we do it at the top through gravity, it'll just go to the bottom of the funnel, right? And so I love that stuff, but today we just know more. And so we should be using it.
In the science, there's art that goes along. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're spending, this is much more of the science conversation that we're having here. Yeah. But is the underpinning now, because we, we used to last thing and then I'll, I'll shut up. I mean, art was a little bit subjective. Maybe it was back to the panels.
How do, how do we know if that is landing right? And so now there is more measurement and, and precision even around not how to make the art necessarily, but what art is working and what isn't.
LT: Oof
DC: Deep. Okay. Okay. You, you [00:31:00] are in the synapses here, but Larry, were you gonna say anything in response to that before I do.
LT: You go ahead. I have a, a, a follow up question after you.
DC: Okay. Um, the word precision. Keeps coming up in my mind. Mm-hmm. And in your conversation, and going back to my question of what would we tell marketers given retail media networks and commerce media networks and the overwhelming amount of data and what we can now know, how do we help them parse it down to the data that's most actionable?
Going back to the word, uh, precision, that's a P word. I've got three Ps. The first P is personal. The second P is purchase. And the third P is predictive.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: Mm-hmm. So [00:32:00] the degree to which marketers can have their teams, both internal and external, say to them, we can personally at a personal level. Track a purchase and predict what might happen next.
That is powerful. That, that, that, that is powerful. And I'll go to an old story, Tim and Larry, I don't know whether this is true or not, but when the internet digital marketing was, was just beginning, that was a story that was going around in our industry and it was around, there's some, per some, uh, gentleman, he, he's got a family.
He's in a house, he's getting direct mail stuff for diapers. He doesn't have any, any small children. He keeps getting this stuff for diapers and then it comes up that, okay, his, his daughter was expecting and he didn't [00:33:00] know it, but he found out, because I don't know if that story is true or not, but this is that on steroids.
Tim Spengler: Right. Great urban lesson. Great urban legend.
DC: Yes.
Tim Spengler: So true. Go ahead, Larry. I was gonna,
LT: no, so Tim, as we're talking about this. And this is what you really know, and we're talking about the monster numbers here and all the elements that we are, are bringing to the surface. So when it rubber meets the road, what are the media, the media agencies and the planners and buyers, what are they thinking about this?
Hmm.
Tim Spengler: Well, it, it, it's become, I want to, let me use Jack's exact line. Uh, it's the connective tissue of media planning today.
LT: Wow.
Tim Spengler: Hmm. Brand teams increasingly organize their strategy around commerce data. So it is becoming the backbone where you start [00:34:00] back to Dave Penske's word identity, so there's less upper funnel down.
It's more we, we just know too much now. What are our KPIs? What do we want to track and how are we gonna drive them? Is not just that left-handed redheads, don't buy minivans, but right-handed do good data, fine. Now I've hyper targeted my audience a little bit further. That's a ridiculous example. I don't know why I thought of it.
LT: No, that's good though. It but a buddy point,
Tim Spengler: Buddy mine that Larry knows, used to say that. Um, and, but okay, fine. Now what are we gonna say to them That drives the behavior we want.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: So we can, we, we are getting better and better at the who, but there's still the, what, what are we gonna say? Where are we gonna say it still does matter.
Why does live, live sports is a simple example of the, where that's a attention metric as much as it is anything else, scale and attention. [00:35:00] Um, but so there, there's still other elements. There's still certainly, there's cer still certainly work to be done by brands on the writer side of the brain. But the foundations now we have a much clearer picture, um, with the help of data and technology.
DC: Hmm.
LT: Really interesting.
DC: It is. Um, I wanna switch this up a little bit. Larry, did you have anything else?
LT: No.
DC: I wanna switch this up a little bit. We've spent quite a bit of time here talking about the media agencies, the clients, those that are running these media agencies and those that are running these, these brands.
I wanna talk about talent here for a minute.
Tim Spengler: Mm-hmm.
DC: So when we were coming up, talent, uh, if we use celebrity talent, they were, what we would describe back then, proper celebrities, right? So actors or musicians or something like that. There were [00:36:00] not the, there were not people called influencers. These, these were not.
These were not real.
LT: It wasnt a thing.
DC: Things, yeah, that was not, that was not a thing. So T-Mobile. T-Mobile, anybody in the wireless space, but T-Mobile, they spent a lot of money. A lot of money. So they got a campaign out now and it has two traditional stars, Zoe Saldana who is of avatar fame, and even more fame, and then the legendary Jeff Bridges, they also got a dude in there named Druke. Okay. So Druski iss an influencer, and Drew's been a thing now for years. Druke brother. So you have Druski Jeff Bridges and Joy, uh, SNA in and ad if I'm an influencer now. Okay. I'm a Druski. The next Dru ski, like Kai Cinet. he's big.
There are many influencers out here. Tim, what should these influencers be thinking now, given that we have retail media and commerce [00:37:00] media? Because I guarantee you most of them are not thinking about it at all. And it's going to impact them. It's gonna impact them.
LT: Yeah. Great question.
Tim Spengler: Very true. And we all have kids similar-ish ages enough to know.
LT: Yeah. Yep.
Tim Spengler: You wanna ask them, would they rather hear about an endorsement from, from George Clooney or from Mr. Beast, who's more authentic?
DC: Oh, oh, Mr. Beast
Tim Spengler: ...in the moment. And I love George Clooney, so it's not that, and uh, so it's just amazing how it has shifted, right? Mm-hmm. I, I am not close enough to the actual creators.
And hopefully with this show we're doing, we will, we will be needing to, and you guys probably also needing to lean into where the puck is going. Yeah. And what the customers, you know, what, what the customers want. I think as they get agents and as they get part of larger consortiums, they're gonna have to understand, look, they have from the beginning, from the, from, from the [00:38:00] first ad, which was, oh shoot, I'm drawing a blank now.
What was the first, uh, the first real creator ad that was just silly. Um, it wa Oh, it was, it was the Shaver. It was the razor ads. Right. Remember the first ones on YouTube?
LT: Yeah.
Tim Spengler: Oh yeah. Yeah. What brand? What brand was that guy? We should know that. Off the top of our head. I cant think of it. Uh, it
DC: was, uh, it was Shave Club something.
Shave Club.
Tim Spengler: Dollar Shave Club.
DC: Dollar Shave Club.
Tim Spengler: Yes. That was like one of the very first. That's a great point. And they were direct to the consumer on YouTube and made fun of the, the, the whole, the whole upper crust level of buying razors. And it was about performance. I mean, they were like, no, no, I'm go.
So I think that these guys have a filter of performance in their mind. I really do. Because, because they're not about vanity. Uh, when they're working with brands, they're not, they mostly don't pick brands that they don't like. They won't, unless they're desperate, they won't do it. And that works for both sides, [00:39:00] by the way.
'cause the authentic is true. So it's, it's a win-win. But a brand could approach somebody who's great just 'cause they want association with somebody with a huge following, not knowing, or, I, I think they do their homework on that now too. So, but anyway, so that whole thing works together. I think they understand it's about performance or die.
And I guess my, my, my assumption is now as they have all have agents and they become more professional, that they have to, maybe they couldn't teach a class on. Retail and commerce media, they, it'd be fun to listen to them talk about it. 'cause they'd come at it from a different perspective. Maybe say it's simpler than we're doing.
But I think that they, one, they have a performance mindset, authentic. They start with authenticity. They have a performance mindset, otherwise they won't get rehired. And I think they probably have lean, they, they're leaning in enough to understand some of this. That's my guess on the third part.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
LT: And I'm guessing too, they're also thinking about carving out anything that's video, understanding that it could go to so [00:40:00] many places. And branders, just so you understand, this is truly a different distribution point than let's say traditional streaming television and of course social media. This is something different.
And so I think, Tim, you're right. I think they might not be well schooled enough in, in what commerce and retail media are specifically, but they probably understand. As soon as I take a, if, when I do this with my video, when I'm doing a video, I know it can go in a lot of places. I'm just gonna try and carve out as much as I can as it relates to that.
Um, so I think that's what they're thinking. Uh, I gotta, could I swing this another direction? Consumer? We haven't talked about the consumer.
Tim Spengler: And I wanna talk about the media companies too, not the agencies. Let's do consumer first, but then I wanna talk about the media companies who are in the media business.
What do they have to do about this? Go ahead.
LT: That's great. That's great. Do you wanna hit that first or consumer?
Tim Spengler: No, no. Go.
LT: So consumer, you know, we talk about precision. [00:41:00] Consumers know that when they surf something on social media or they do a Google search or whatever, and then all of a sudden they, the ads are popping up for things like, people get that, there's a creepy element to it, and then there's a good element to it, right?
And I think consumers have almost the angel and the devil on their shoulder. 'cause they, as, as it relates to their understanding of that. Um, and, and then we've guys, we've talked about this a lot. I'm in Walmart. I've got my two kids here, uh, with me, my two young kids. I'm, I'm balancing all these things that I gotta kid pick up another kid, uh, at gymnastics practice and there's somebody in front of me that's checking out and all of a sudden they're watching an ad and I'm looking, what the hell I gotta get going.
Right? Like, and then all of a sudden when they're checking out, they're seeing an ad. So. There's an element of this, that there's an optimal element and then there's a bad element to this. You know? Tim, can [00:42:00] you talk a little bit about the interfacing and, and how that's working and what people with the Walmarts and Amazons and United Airlines, again, Commerce Media Network, that's different.
They have you, you know, watching a tv, so that's different. But when you're checking out of a checkout line, it's much different than watching a vi watching a video in United Airlines Network. So what are, what are your guys' thoughts about it? The, the consumer side of this?
Tim Spengler: Uh, D, you wanna go first?
DC: No, you go please, Tim.
Tim Spengler: Quick story, last time I lectured at a college and I was talking about how the world's changing. And so I said, how am I gonna open this in a Tony Robbins like way that gets everyone thinking as opposed to just going to page one? And so I said, okay, I got a question for everybody. You know, of course they're all 18 to 24.
How many of you in the last 24 hours? Raise your hand, experienced an ad, and you thought to yourself, why am I getting that ad? That's not relevant to me. [00:43:00] They all raised their hand,
LT: Right? Yeah.
Tim Spengler: And me and the 50 plus year old teacher said, see, we don't think that way. If I'm watching daytime tv, I get a fem care ad.
I understand. I'm not in the mood mind to buy a car. I don't eat fast food, but that's what I'm gonna see when I'm watching sports. So I love Larry, your angel and devil on the shoulder, because if it's not relevant, they all, there's two things. One, one, it's a waste of money. Two is they think differently about the company.
That's a dumb company. Don't they know either I just bought it, I just bought the product. Or don't, they don't, I don't like it. I even think less of them. So it's like, it's amazing. It's just amazing how it's all been, is changing. But they, they've come to expect that if it's not relevant, they're even more bo. They'll take that over. Giving me the same ad 20 times.
LT: Interesting. Yeah.
Tim Spengler: We know in the, we know in the insurance category where everything is humorous because I have to hit you over the head 400 times in order for [00:44:00] you to make un unstick that sticky purchase.
LT: Right?
Tim Spengler: Like that's not just switching candy bars.
So part of that strategy is it's gotta be frequency or there's no, I'm gonna do it. The only way I'm gonna hit you over the head that many times is if I'm funny, I can't be serious. Right. I would turn off the world. But, so all that stuff's in that mix, but I think they expect the precision now and it's just interesting.
It's just interesting.
LT: Love that story.
DC: Uh, Larry, I'm glad you swung it to the consumer. I kind of feel bad for, for consumers and, and, and I say that because, uh, we're mostly captive now.
LT: Yeah.
DC: It, it, it's very difficult to have quiet time and, uh, I, I. I think about my phone, I probably get, I don't know, 30 to 50 calls a day.[00:45:00]
And I know they're trying to sell me something. So what I've learned to do is ignore them. And I have found strategies to more quickly ignore the calls with commerce and re and, uh, retail and commerce media. I find myself applying skills to ignore the messages, and it takes a lot to actually get me to dial in now.
So, uh, back to your word of precision, unless it's exactly what I'm looking for at exactly the time I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward or thinking about it, I'm simply not paying attention. So I wonder. What consumers are doing to filter
LT: Yeah.
DC: The messages,
Tim Spengler: Well, there, there is that battle between relevance and an and, and an and avoidance, because I don't want ads in general.
Right? Yeah. [00:46:00] Right. We grew up with you. We didn't have a choice.
DC: Yep.
Tim Spengler: Okay, fine. Now you have a choice. You're, you're, you're getting less and less of a choice as everything that was
LT: Yes.
Tim Spengler: That was subscription is now, is now ad supported, you know, and, and the difference in the price is too much for you. And there's too many, you can't get 'em all for, you can't pay premium for all of them, so the ads are coming back, but they, they come in with a, with a bias against ads where we didn't.
Right. So that, that is certainly interesting. I when you're saying that, D, it reminds me. Maybe you guys talking to your brand clients have heard this more, but like among the hallmarks of planning, wasn't it like that three plus frequency or the two pl, it was like it was pretty low number,
DC: 85% at three plus 85 reach three plus at three plus frequency.
Yes.
Tim Spengler: You don't hear about that three plus anymore. That ain't gonna get it done.
DC: No.
Tim Spengler: Good point. That ain't gonna get it done.
DC: No, no.
Tim Spengler: Can you imagine the, can you imagine the frequency in the insurance category? I know that's a, a hyper example, but just to your point about looking for ways to avoid et cetera, blah blah and yeah, me saying they come [00:47:00] in not wanting it.
Three pluses. The three pluses is gone the way of the buggy whip.
LT: It has. So Tim, you want to go to the media companies that you were.
Tim Spengler: Well, just not, not as deep of a point. I love this conversation about the consumer too, but I, I was just gonna say that if the media companies. Don't start to have a lens around performance of their properties for brands, then they risk becoming obsolete themselves.
Because I'm gonna find a way to get the things I need, let's call it right brain, with the things that drive performance. And that is just now a part of the reality of, um, everything new, new currencies. It's not just about Nielsen anymore. Uh, you know, new ways to, to track upper funnel, um, work, upper funnel progress.
But it's amazing that everyone has [00:48:00] to be in this mindset. Even, even the, the, the most storied companies, media companies who made content, I make. Great shows on Thursdays, not 'cause it's the number one night of watching television, it's number three. Or people watch TV on Sunday, or people watch TV on Wednesday, Thursdays is third, but it leads the weekend where the highest paying categories are cars and movies.
They pay more money and they want, you know, so like all those days of quality programming in the right moment, it's just so, it's so blown up that, uh, we have to continue to be curious and stay, stay, stay on our toes or otherwise we will become obsolete as well, boys.
LT: Great point.
DC: Okay. Let, let, let's talk about the art.
Let part of that. So this, that's the science
LT: Yeah.
DC: Part of it. These media companies, they gotta make these draconian decisions. Uh, but let's talk about the art side. I'm concerned, uh, Tim and Larry, [00:49:00] I'm concerned that because of data and because of retail and now commerce media. That there won't be patience on the part of the content creators and the media companies to allow a, a show to quote unquote find its audience.
LT: Yeah.
DC: I just wonder if now the ripcord will get pulled quickly if a piece of content doesn't quote unquote perform well, and or even if an audience is found, if it starts to dwindle, you know, 1.2% on a Thursday, is it like we yanking it off Thursday? Like I, like, I'll give you an example. Uh, my favorite show, like a series.
Ever.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: Breaking Bad.
Tim Spengler: Right.
DC: This is my favorite, favorite show. [00:50:00] I didn't discover Breaking Bad until like season three or four. A friend of mine was telling me his name is Derrick Dudley. He kept telling me, Hey, have you seen every time we'd go to, have you seen, so I was flying to LA from Atlanta, uh, once, and he said, Hey, man, on your flight, just watch one. One.
I spent the entire flight watching every single thing I could. I was looking at it on the ground in between meetings. I wouldn't go out, I just voraciously consumed it. But I was late in the action and I just concerned that there won't be great art given a chance to find its sea legs, if you will.
LT: Uh, listen, that's outside of, uh, commerce and retail media, but you're, you're bringing something really up.
Like, you know, there's been, you guys know [00:51:00] what happened with the c with the show Suits that was originally a USA and Tim, I know you know this.
DC: Yeah.
LT: And it was on USA and it did fine. It didn't do great, but it did fine. And then all of a sudden the, I think the series ended in the late 20 teens. Right. Tim?
Something like that. And, and they put it on Netflix a couple years ago and it blew up. And my wife, Sherry, and I were complete. We, we never watched one episode and was on USA, but it was on Netflix and we were the, we, we watched it all through and yeah, that's a, that's definitely something that's really interesting.
Tim Spengler: Well, Reed Hastings and Ted Sarandos about 15 years, maybe 20, made a bet that everything would go on demand anyway, so the consumer could choose when they wanted to watch it. Oh, oh yeah. So I, I, I think that that point that you're making, Larry would only be a DC would only be is if I don't order season two.
Because season one right. Is gonna be up there [00:52:00] forever. Right. And so, ah, it's just, it's, I mean, it's just crazy that, that is also just, I used the West Wing or the Thursday night example just to make the point about the, the, the olden times. But now it's just everything is on demand. I watch it when I want to, where I want to.
Yep. Don't tell me, I mean, I got punished. I missed the last episode of Mary Tyler Moore ever. Because I did something that day that pissed off parent and I missed it. And that was my favorite show. I mean, that was an incredible
LT: Yep.
Tim Spengler: Back, I'm showing my age here, but like, when am I gonna watch it again?
Some, some week in July, maybe.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: Period paragraph. Yeah. I mean, it is just different.
LT: Yeah. Really interesting stuff, guys. All right. Um, anything else that we feel like we didn't cover from, you know, [00:53:00] consumer media companies? Um, anything else that we want to cover before we hit the end here guys?
DC: I got one, but you, do you have one, Tim?
Tim Spengler: No, I don't. I don't think so.
DC: Alright.
Tim Spengler: It's been fun as usual.
DC: We've mentioned Amazon, we've mentioned Walmart. I think we also mentioned Kroger. These are the big, big people. Yeah. How can retail and commerce media benefit the small. Medium-sized businesses, why should they be into this?
Tim Spengler: Well, they, so here's what, here's what I think is gonna happen at the next level of growth.
So I mentioned that those two first ones, Amazon or Walmart, are in the 40 billions of the 67. Mm-hmm.
LT: So they're basically like the old school networks. It's like they've got, you know, the big two.
Tim Spengler: Yeah, exactly. Big two. And then, and then there's, between Target, [00:54:00] uh, Kroger, um, Albertsons, home Depot, there's a bunch of other retailers, Lowe's, there's, you know, there's maybe 10 that make up 80% of this.
DC: Okay.
Tim Spengler: And then there's the regional grocery chains and other small outlets. And that's all happening. What, what I think is an opportunity. In the near future is the more niche retailers.
DC: Mm.
Tim Spengler: Fashion. Health.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Tim Spengler: Um, probably categories. I can't think off, off the top of my head, but I think.
LT: Local merchants just like the nail salon and people like that.
Right.
Tim Spengler: Yeah. I think some of that too, that this, these niche offerings are another, um, it's an extension of what we have, but it's complimentary.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: So to me that I think is [00:55:00] a possible, uh, expansion of this area is in niche. Is in niche stores.
LT: Right.
DC: Got
LT: it. Thank you.
Makes sense. Yeah. Thank you Dee. That was my only question left too.
Tim, is there anything else you wanna cover? I think we, we, what do you think?
Tim Spengler: No, I mean, I, I, I don't, not that I can think of. It's always fun talking with you guys, and I'm glad we got, we got deeper down into some stuff and, um, I hope everyone out there felt it was, uh, you know, was useful for them in their time.
DC: Oh, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Larry. I do have one more question of Tim. I'm sorry.
Tim Spengler: This pregnant pause is so, obviously, is so obvious, but go ahead. What?
DC: No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not right. I'm gonna go Kornheiser. I'm gonna go Kornheiser and say, we're gonna get you outta here on this.
Tim Spengler: Okay.
DC: For companies who want to get into this [00:56:00] space and don't have the internal capability to do so.
Tim Spengler: Mm-hmm.
DC: To do so, what kind of resource should they be looking for to help them actually build it, stand it up, and then at some point. Run it on their own. What, what do they need? What questions do they need to ask? What kind of experience do they need to be seeking?
Tim Spengler: Right. I, I think that the e word experience, I was gonna say expertise.
I think, I think you, you wanna come, you probably don't want buy something in this space. So now you've got build or borrow. Right. And I think you want a combination to start a build and borrow. So I think you wanna work with someone who's done it before mm-hmm. To get you ready.
LT: Right.
Tim Spengler: If you, if you, if you, it's not the same as something else.
It is different. And the ecosystem that we've been talking [00:57:00] about, data led tech enabled is incredibly busy. No one has any time for mistakes on customer side, you build the wrong thing and you get the meeting and you missed it. You got one, you, you got like one shot. So I think you have to. You have to do a combination of build and borrow, which is, you gotta borrow expertise to help you walk into this because it doesn't really have a lot of room for mistakes, right?
If you don't have them captive, you can make a mistake if you have 'em captive and they need you for something else. If you're doing this on your own and you don't have the money, the 67 billion, if you don't have the any leverage against the money, you just wanna lean into that tam, you better be ready when you do it.
LT: Yep.
DC: Got
LT: it. Understood.
That's awesome. So guys, just before we close off here, I, I think it would be great if we posit one or two, uh, [00:58:00] quick things that we wanna highlight. And if you want, I'll just go first and, uh, there's a, a few things that were, were said. Uh, nothing smart by me, but by my, my two cohorts here and Tim said.
Brand Nerds when you're thinking about this, this is about precision and scale, which again, you normally don't, you usually have to choose one precision and scale. And DC said that precision really equals personal purchase and predictive those three Ps that can really, um, take what precision is and make it personal and what's the pur purchase behavior and how it's predictive going forward.
And then Tim also alluded to, I love this and I, I, I don't remember who he was quoting, but he said, this is all about being data led and tech enabled. So those are the three things that surface for me in a big way.
DC: I'll go next. I've just got one [00:59:00] smarter integrated full funnel decisions.
LT: That's great.
DC: That's it.
Tim Spengler: Um, you guys take better notes during these than I do. More practice, I think. Uh. I would say, I mean, it's funny 'cause we, we reference our expertise and our backgrounds and our years in something that's a lot different. Some of the fundamentals are the same, but is, is, is is the ingredients now are, are are getting much different.
I think my biggest takeaway is just that the, if you're not curious and restless, uh, there's just no way. You have to be incredibly curious, right, and restless. And I don't know how much time away from your job and the learning, some of it's a learning on the job, but there's just no way without constant learning and reading from the people who are ahead on things, there's no other way to keep up with marketing [01:00:00] today.
LT: Love that. That's a great mic drop. Brand nerds. That's the end here and we are at the, at the outro here. Thanks for listening to Brands, Beats and Bytes, the executive producers of Brands, Beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Jade Tate and Tom Dioro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple podcasts if you're so inclined, we love those excellent reviews.
We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.