Episode 304: Rusty and Clay discuss "How to Lead When You're Not in Charge?"

Welcome to the Simple Faith Podcast with Rusty George! In this episode, Rusty is joined by special guest Clay Scroggins, author of "How to Lead When You're Not in Charge." Clay and Rusty dive into a lively conversation about sports, the unique challenges of young pastors working alongside popular lead pastors, and their shared connection to Crossroads Christian Church. Get ready for some laughs and insightful discussion as Clay and Rusty explore the dynamics of leadership and influence.

In "How to Lead When You're Not in Charge," Clay Scroggins challenges the traditional notion of leadership as solely tied to title or position. Instead, he highlights the power of influence and how individuals can effectively lead, even without formal authority. Through actionable insights and personal anecdotes, Clay offers strategies for navigating organizational challenges and driving positive change from any role. Tune in to discover practical tips for becoming a more impactful leader in your own sphere of influence.


About Clay, a distinguished author and thought leader, has penned best-selling titles including "How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge," "How to Lead in a World of Distraction," and "The Aspiring Leader’s Guide to the Future." A proud alumnus of Georgia Tech, he holds a degree in Industrial Engineering and furthered his academic pursuits with a Master’s and Doctorate emphasizing Online Church from
Dallas Theological Seminary.

With a rich legacy spanning nearly two decades, Clay has been an integral part of North Point Ministries, founded by Andy Stanley in Alpharetta, Georgia. His most notable role was as the lead pastor of Buckhead Church, one of North Point’s flagship campuses. Beyond the pulpit, Clay's dynamic speaking engagements have seen him collaborate with a diverse range of organizations, from the Dallas Cowboys and the White House staff to corporate giants like Taco Bell and Audi. Clay, along with his wife Jenny, lives in Atlanta, Georgia, and they are proud parents to five children and a spunky dog named Hank.

Website: https://www.clayscroggins.com/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clay-scroggins-5106a16/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/clayscroggins

Instagram: @Clayscroggins

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Creators & Guests

Host

Rusty George

Follower of Jesus, husband of lorrie, father of lindsey and sidney, pastor of Crossroads Christian Church

What is The Rusty George Podcast?

Rusty George is the Lead Pastor at Crossroads Christian Church in Grand Prairie. Under his dedicated leadership, Crossroads Christian Church aspires to flourish as a vibrant community committed to guiding individuals in their journey to discover and follow the path of Jesus.

Beyond leading Crossroads Church, Rusty is a global speaker, leader and teacher focusing on making real life simple. Rusty has also written several books and can be heard weekly on his podcast, Leading Simple with Rusty George.

Aside from being a loyal Chiefs, Royals, and Lakers fan, Rusty is first and foremost committed to his family. Rusty has been married to his wife, Lorrie, for over twenty-five years, and they have two daughters, Lindsey and Sidney. As a family, they enjoy walking the dogs, playing board games together, and watching HGTV while Rusty watches ESPN on his iPad.

Rusty (00:00.931)
Clay Scroggins back on the podcast. I believe this is your second, maybe third time. I'm not sure. I'm sure they're all memorable for you though. I'm just glad to be. I'm glad to know you period rusty. And if the podcast is what we have to do to get together and talk, that's great. I am sure you find that though. The podcast makes your kind of forces you to end up talking to people. It does. And I get an audience with some people that I would never

Clay (00:09.358)
I'm just glad to be, I'm glad to know you period Rusty. And if the podcast is what we have to do to get together and talk, that's great. I, I, I am sure you find that though. The podcast makes your kind of forces you to end up talking to people.

Rusty (00:30.547)
get to go out to lunch with me. So this is great. And certainly with the magic of technology, we can do this over zoom or Riverside as we're doing today. You and I got to hang out at a at a Cowboys football game, which was hilarious because neither one of us would consider ourselves Cowboys fans and we end up in a box. Man, that was that was an awesome experience. Even though the game was an awesome, the Cowboys blew him out.

Clay (01:00.174)
Yeah, the Cowboys were, they were a force to be reckoned with at home this year, until the playoffs.

Rusty (01:00.635)
Yeah, the Cowboys were they were a force to be reckoned with at home this year. Yes. Until the playoffs. Yeah. And then Green Bay came to town and did not care. Yeah. Oh, no. What had been done in the past. You probably get a lot of those opportunities, right, with the people that you've met and the business leaders that you work with. You get, you know, I mean, what's some of the more memorable experiences you've had like that? Well, the

Clay (01:14.606)
Yeah, no, they did not.

Clay (01:29.102)
Well, the one that I'm still most frustrated about that I haven't had is I've lived in Atlanta now for 25 years and preached at churches and tried to talk about golf as much as possible. And I thought I would get an invitation at some point to play Augusta National and I have not. So I'm still holding out hope. No, maybe the one of the most enjoyable ministry experiences I've had in the last...

Rusty (01:30.147)
The one that I'm still most frustrated about that I haven't had is I've lived in Atlanta now for 25 years and preached at churches and tried to talk about golf as much as possible and I thought I would get an invitation at some point to play Augusta National and I have not so I'm still holding out hope. No, maybe the one of the most enjoyable ministry experiences I've had in the last

Clay (01:57.774)
few years was speaking, I've spoken a couple of years at a conference called the Daniel summit. It's a group of, uh, Christian professional sports executives, professional sports executives who are trying to make a difference for the name of Jesus in their place of employment. And, uh, that has allowed me to meet a bunch of people that work in professional sports. Um, it's a tough industry. They don't, uh, in a lot of cases, they don't pay really well because there's kind of a.

Rusty (01:58.103)
few years was speaking, I've spoken a couple of years at a conference called the Daniel Summit. It's a group of Christian professional sports executives, professional sports executives who are trying to make a difference for the name of Jesus in their place of employment. And that has allowed me to meet a bunch of people that work in professional sports. It's a tough industry. They don't, in a lot of cases, they don't pay really well, because there's kind of a

Clay (02:28.206)
There's a cool factor to working in professional sports. And so they, they get a reduction on pay because of that. Um, but they do get really great opportunities if you like sports. Um, and I, you and I share in that.

Rusty (02:28.547)
There's a cool factor to working in professional sports. And so they get a reduction on pay because of that. But they do get really great opportunities if you like sports. And you and I share in that. Yeah, it was fun being at a game that we didn't care who won, we were just enjoying. That was the game that my chiefs lost to Buffalo. We watched it on TV in the box because

Clay (02:49.646)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is nice.

Rusty (02:58.107)
Oh, Caderius Tony had his foot over the line. But anyway, so my day was already ruined. So I could just kind of settle in and enjoy the conversation. And it was great getting to hang because what our listeners may or may not know is that you and I, over the last year and a half, got a chance to teach for a church and never really ever be together because you would teach one weekend and I would teach the next. And how did that kind of happen? How did they contact you? And how did this begin?

Clay (03:01.486)
Yeah, that was quite a moment.

Clay (03:18.542)
Mm-hmm.

Clay (03:27.726)
For me, it was a guy named Ted Cunningham. Ted lives in Branson. He's a pastor in Branson, Missouri and does a lot of marriage speaking. And Ted had done an event at Crossroads Christian Church and stayed connected to some of their staff. And then when they were looking, I'll never forget the first meeting I had with them. They said, Hey, we're really looking to fill some Sundays. And I remember sitting on the call.

Rusty (03:28.367)
For me, it was a guy named Ted Cunningham. Ted lives in Branson. He's a pastor in Branson, Missouri and does a lot of marriage speaking. And Ted had done an event at Crossroads Christian Church and stayed connected to some of their staff. And then when they were looking, I'll never forget the first meeting I had with them, they said, hey, we're really looking to fill some Sundays. And...

I remember sitting on the call, of course, I'm not going to say it, but I thought, well, I hope I'm better than just filling a Sunday. But honestly, I was like, I'm grateful to get the serve. How about you? Did you know someone I assume? Yeah, there was a connection. I've known the church forever because of my connection with the previous senior pastor. But I think there was a guy out here named Brandon Beard, who put my name in and same kind of thing.

Clay (03:56.11)
course I'm not going to say it, but I thought, well, I hope I'm better than just filling a Sunday, but honestly, I, I was like, I'm grateful to get to serve. How about you? Did you know someone I said?

Rusty (04:23.615)
you know, he can, he can fill some slots for you, you know, which, which is kind of the nice way. Exactly. What's been the weirdest compliment you've ever received? Well, for you, I mean, my ministry journey has been, I worked for 20 years for Andy Stanley. And so I was the, I mean, when I first started preaching, I was the Memorial Day guy. Then I moved to

Clay (04:28.238)
Yeah, you're better than that rusty. You're better than just

Clay (04:35.182)
Well, for you, I mean, my ministry journey has been, I worked for 20 years for Andy Stanley. And so I was the, I mean, when I first started preaching, I was the Memorial Day guy. Then I moved to, I called myself traffic control. When the, when it would get too busy, the crowd would get too large. They'd bring me in and it would, it would ease the traffic.

Rusty (04:52.415)
I call myself traffic control. When it would get too busy, the crowd would get too large, they'd bring me in and it would ease the traffic. People would come from all over the world to come hear Andy preach. And particularly in the last few years that I was there, and such a moment of disappointment on their face. I had one lady who I'll never forget. She comes up to me, she waits in the line, you know, it wasn't that long of a line, but.

Clay (05:02.798)
People would come from all over the world to come hear Andy preach. And particularly in the last few years that I was there, and such a moment of disappointment on their face. I had one lady who I'll never forget. She comes up to, she waits in the line, you know, it wasn't that long of a line, but a couple people. She waits and she goes, oh my goodness, we came from Tampa, we listen to you every single week, and we couldn't wait to get here. I can't believe I'm getting to meet you.

Rusty (05:20.567)
couple people. She waits and she goes, Oh my goodness, we came from Tampa. We listen to you every single week. And we couldn't wait to get here. I can't believe I'm getting to meet you. And I was like, I think she thinks I'm someone else. And she had her hand, she had her phone in her hand, you know, like this, like she was about to take a selfie. And she said it dawned on me she was just she was kind of nervous as she was talking.

Clay (05:34.158)
And I was like, I think she thinks I'm someone else. And she had her phone in her hand, you know, like this, like she was about to take a selfie. And she said, it dawned on me. She was just, she was kind of nervous as she was talking. She's like, it dawned on me. I only listen. I've never actually watched. And so you're not what I thought you would be or something.

Rusty (05:50.551)
She's like, it dawned on me. I only listen. I've never actually watched. And so you're not what I thought you would be or something. And I finally broke it to her. I was like, man, I'm so sorry. I think you think that I'm Andy Stanley and I'm not. And she slowly put her phone in her pocket and just walked away. That's so good. So back to your question. The comment I would get is...

Clay (06:02.158)
And I finally broke it to her. I was like, man, I'm so sorry. I think you think that I'm Andy Stanley and I'm not. And she slowly put her phone in her pocket and just walked away.

So back to your question, the comment I would get is, man, you know, whenever we would hear Andy wasn't here, we used to hate it. And we don't hate it as bad now. You know, something like that. Yeah.

Rusty (06:20.535)
man, you know, whenever we would hear Andy wasn't here, we used to hate it. And we hate, we don't hate it as bad now. Yeah. That's a, that's always the nice one. You know, I, yeah, I was kind of that guy for, um, uh, pastor by the name of Mike bro, uh, in Kentucky. And I could literally, when I'd go out to speak, I can literally watch people get their things and get up and leave. I mean, there's just nothing like that. Did you know when you're in your intro?

Oh, this is going swimmingly. You know, people are bailing for the exits. Mike, bro, you've gotten to know him really well over the years because you work with him. Obviously. I don't really know him. Yeah. I heard him preach at a Willow Creek preaching conference like 20 years ago. I remember that. Yeah. And it was, man, this guy is a phenomenal preacher. He's incredible.

Clay (06:51.95)
Mike, bro, you've gotten to know him really well over the years because you work with him. I don't really know him, but I've just, I heard him preach at a Willow Creek preaching conference like 20 years ago, and it was, I thought, man, this guy is a phenomenal preacher.

Rusty (07:11.891)
Okay, so, Clay, tell us about your podcast because you and I talked briefly about this, I think at the Cowboys game, but you're you have a podcast that a friend of yours runs and he just asked you questions. Is that kind of the way it works? Well, no, he we both participate with it, I would say, but it's called How to Lead. So my career is the journey of my career is that I wrote these leadership books and ended up getting

Clay (07:25.102)
Uh, well, no, he, we both participate with it, I would say, but, um, it's called how to lead. So my career is, uh, the, the journey of my career is that I wrote these leadership books and ended up getting invitations to speak at businesses, corporations. And I've really found that's a very fulfilling, um, opportunity for me to get to help business leaders.

Rusty (07:40.359)
invitations to speak at businesses, corporations, and I've really found that's a very fulfilling opportunity for me to get to help business leaders, help people in the workplace, try to figure out how to enjoy their job more, how to become a more influential leader in the place they work in. So I feel like my day job is really split in half, about half preaching and then about half.

Clay (07:52.846)
help people in the workplace, try to figure out how to enjoy their job more, how to become a more influential leader in the place they work in. So I feel like my, my day job is really split in half, about half preaching and then about half corporate speaking. So the podcast is, uh, we try to make real short, simple deposits into people's work life, something that you could grow in something that you could pass on to your team. It's called how to lead. And it's a resource designed to help.

Rusty (08:07.287)
corporate speaking. So the podcast is we try to make real short simple deposits into people's work life, something that you could grow in something that you could pass on to your team. It's called how to lead and it's a resource designed to help leaders grow. And then to help leaders resource their team as well. You get to work for

Clay (08:23.054)
leaders grow and then to help leaders resource their team as well.

Rusty (08:32.087)
one of the world's greatest leaders in Andy Stanley for 20 years, and you learned a lot there, and you got to be exposed to a lot of great leaders just by being in that atmosphere. But here you are, venturing out, doing your own thing, teaching about leadership. What do you know now about leadership? Maybe you didn't see because you were too close to it when you were in the church world.

Clay (08:57.422)
You know, I would hear this when I was young and I would kind of roll my eyes and go, come on, it's more than that. But just the idea that character is really the foundation for leadership, that was one of the first things I remembered learning about leadership. But at the time I thought, no, it's gotta be more complex or it's gotta be more nuanced or it's gotta be more...

Rusty (08:57.771)
You know, I would hear this when I was young and I would kind of roll my eyes and go, come on, it's more than that. But just the idea that character is really the foundation for leadership. That was one of the first things I remembered learning about leadership, but at the time I thought, no, it's gotta be more complex or it's gotta be more nuanced or it's gotta be more.

Clay (09:26.094)
sophisticated than that. But I do feel like, as I look back, I wish I would have adopted that or at least spend as much time thinking about character development. It's when I when I help an organization, I feel like what I'm really doing is helping their people become better people. Because if you can become a better person, you'll become a better leader that there's real and they're not, you can't become a better leader without becoming a better person.

Rusty (09:26.495)
sophisticated than that. But I do feel like as I look back, I wish I would have adopted that or at least spend as much time thinking about character development. When I help an organization, I feel like what I'm really doing is helping their people become better people. Because if you can become a better person, you'll become a better leader. That there's real, and they're not, you can't become a better leader without becoming a better person.

Clay (09:54.958)
that it doesn't work like that. That as you grow as a person in your character, in your integrity, in your wholeness, I'm not afraid to say what I actually think to the person that it might hurt their feelings. You know, I'm not gonna say one thing to them and say another to somebody else. That character development is leadership development. I think I had heard it, but I wish I would have...

Rusty (10:10.875)
and

Clay (10:23.662)
bought into that philosophy sooner, not just for my own growth, but for my, as I think about helping others as well, maybe more so.

Rusty (10:24.011)
bought into that philosophy sooner, not just for my own growth, but for my, as I think about helping others as well, maybe more so. That's such an interesting statement because we tend to assume that character is just who you are. You know, well, you know, I sometimes fudge the numbers or, you know what, I'm just always late or whatever. But I'm going to work on my leadership development. That was such a buzzword, you know, back in the...

Clay (10:52.334)
Mm-hmm.

Rusty (10:53.163)
90s and 2000s of just developing leadership skills and all of that. But you're so right. If you could clean up some of those other things, boy, that just really allows you to lead people, don't you think? Yeah, because if you, I mean, one simple exercise I like doing is just asking people to think about a leader that's made a big difference in your life and write down what it was, the one characteristic or virtue that person exhibited.

Clay (11:07.47)
Yeah, because if you, I mean, one simple exercise I like doing is just asking people to think about a leader that's made a big difference in your life and write down what it was, the one characteristic or virtue that that person exhibited that is, you know, maybe is one of the reasons why you thought of them. They don't ever write down, oh, their ability to speak in public, their ability to strategically think, their ability to...

Rusty (11:22.555)
is, you know, maybe is one of the reasons why you thought of them. They don't ever write down, Oh, their ability to speak in public, their ability to strategically think, uh, their ability to, um, motivate the team. No, their pivot, their ability to, you know, run a pivot table on a spreadsheet and whatever it may be, we say things like she was a listener.

Clay (11:37.038)
motivate the team, know their ability to run a pivot table on a spreadsheet, whatever it may be. We say things like, she was a listener, he cared deeply about me, he was unafraid to say the hard things, he always believed in me when nobody else did. It's character qualities that we give, right?

Rusty (11:51.215)
He cared deeply about me. He was unafraid to say the hard things. He always believed in me when nobody else did. It's character qualities that we give, right? And so that simple little exercise, it's kind of like Rusty, when you and I were student pastors and we used to do that thing where you'd talk about dating and you'd say, make a list of all the things you're looking for, and then you kind of flip it and be like, you know.

Clay (12:04.782)
And so that simple little exercise, it's kind of like Rusty, when you and I were student pastors and we used to do that thing where you talk about dating and you'd say, make a list of all the things you're looking for. And then you kind of flip it and be like, you know, are you becoming that kind of person, you know, it's that same idea. It's like, well, if that's what we're looking for, or if that's who has inspired us, then maybe that's what we ought to focus on in becoming a more influential person.

Rusty (12:19.039)
Are you becoming that kind of person? You know, it's that same idea. It's like, well, if that's what we're looking for, or that's who has inspired us, then maybe that's what we ought to focus on in becoming a more influential person at work, is a person that has deep, deep character. That's so good. And it's a perfect segue into the question I wanted to ask you, because this podcast is called Simple Faith. You know, we're trying to simplify.

Clay (12:34.318)
at work is a person that has deep, deep character.

Rusty (12:47.659)
the transcendent and unexplainable of having a relationship with God. And this gets down, a lot of this is character development, but I mean, we hear a lot of, in the fields you and I run in with pastors, we hear a lot of this phrase, you know, I'm just looking for something deeper. People leave churches because they're looking for something deeper. I want to be a deeper Christian, a deeper person, those kind of terms.

Rusty (13:17.751)
depth as a Christian? Maybe it's character-based, maybe it's intellectual-based, maybe it's experiences with God. I mean, everybody seems to have their kind of, you know, lens they look through for that. And what's been your go-to answer when people say, I just need something deeper? I always think about Jesus's parable of the man who builds his house on the rock versus the one who builds his house on the sand.

Clay (13:35.79)
I always think about Jesus's parable of the man who builds his house on the rock versus the one who builds his house on the sand. He says, it's the one who puts my words into practice, right? He's the one who is building his house or her house on the rock. That to me has always been depth. And I certainly relate to what you said about...

Rusty (13:47.939)
He says, it's the one who puts my words into practice, right? He's the one who is building his house or her house on the rock. That to me has always been depth. And I certainly relate to what you said about.

Clay (14:05.838)
The most common belief people have about depth is knowledge accumulation, right? I mean, as pastors, you and I and anyone who is in the pastoral world knows what it feels like to walk around with kind of like a suggestion box that you're holding, you know? And one of the most common things people say is, I wish our church was just deeper. And then you go, tell me what that means to you.

Rusty (14:06.523)
The most common belief people have about depth is knowledge accumulation. Right? I mean, as pastors, you and I, and anyone who is in the pastoral world knows what it feels like to walk around with kind of like a suggestion box that you're holding. You know? And one of the most common things people say is, I wish our church was just deeper. And then you go, tell me what that means to you.

Clay (14:34.318)
And they go, Oh, I wish we were willing to take on some of the more nuanced or difficult books from the Old Testament. Like what? Like maybe Isaiah or, you know, Exodus, Leviticus. Okay. Well, let me ask you, are you reading that for yourself? And then what does that have to do with anything? You know? Um, well, it has everything to do with anything that it's not about just learning more info or knowledge. It really is about putting it into practice. If, if Jesus's parable was right.

Rusty (14:34.847)
and they go, oh, I wish we were willing to take on some of the more nuanced or difficult books from the Old Testament. Like what? Like maybe Isaiah, or, you know, Exodus, Leviticus. Okay, well, let me ask you, are you reading that for yourself? And then what does that have to do with anything? Well, it has everything to do with anything. That it's not about just learning more info or knowledge. It really is about putting it into practice if Jesus's parable was right.

Clay (15:04.142)
that that's what it looks like to build our house on the rock is to put those words into practice. So that's that's been my the way I've tried to think about depth is application and not information accumulation.

Rusty (15:04.503)
that that's what it looks like to build our house on the rock is to put those words into practice. So that's been my, the way I've tried to think about depth is application, not information accumulation. You know, I think we all have some kind of default answer we give people in those moments. Mine used to be outrage and offense, and now I've kind of crafted it to be a little kinder. But below that statement people make,

Clay (15:27.246)
Right.

Rusty (15:35.347)
is something they feel is missing in their own life. And it might be just, I don't know enough, or I feel like I'm more spiritual when I'm smarter, or whatever it is. What do you think people are really asking when they say that?

Clay (15:37.998)
Mm-hmm.

Clay (15:51.758)
I do think there is something.

Rusty (15:52.159)
I do think there is something...

Clay (15:57.71)
there is a feeling that we get when we learn something about God that makes us feel like we're unlocking a code or that we are growing. But I think so much of it is ingrained in us from our, you know, our education system. I mean, our couple of our kids this morning were studying for a test before school and they were just like cramming these facts to try to get them inside because they're going to have to go and restate these facts on the test. And if they do, they'll get an A, you know?

So I think that that model of learning is in us from the beginning of education, that you just go and learn more and that's how you progress. I do think there's probably something what you're saying about there is a mystery to God, and as we get to know some of the information or deeper facts or...

Rusty (16:28.515)
So I think that model of learning is in us from the beginning of education, that you just go and learn more and that's how you progress. I do think the there's probably something what you're saying about, um, there is a, a mystery to God. And as we get to know some of the information or deeper facts or

Clay (16:56.974)
more interesting things to understand. Maybe it feels like we're getting closer to understanding the mystery of him. I think that's I think there's certainly something to that.

Rusty (16:57.435)
more interesting things to understand. Maybe it feels like we're getting closer to understanding the mystery of him. I think that's, I think there's certainly something to that. It is interesting, I think about all the times I've sat in a message and I've heard something that made me go, oh, I have never thought about that before. Could I tell you any of those things right now? No. But in the moment, the dopamine hit was huge, you know? There was a sense of...

Clay (17:19.63)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Rusty (17:27.271)
knowing the unknown and even maybe a little bit of scorekeeping. I know this and you don't, which is a little bit... feeds the ego a bit. So when you think about... I preached on... at your church, Crossroads in Grand Prairie. I preached a couple weeks ago on Esther, and I thought about it there because the one... you know, the trivial pursuit question about Esther is, what's the one word that never shows up in Esther, right? Right. It's the word God.

Clay (17:36.814)
I preached on, we're at your church, Crossroads and Grand Prairie. I preached a couple of weeks ago on Esther and I thought about it there because the one, you know, the trivial pursuit question about, about Esther is what's the one word that never shows up in Esther, right? It's the word God. And that was good for me to go, okay, how do, how do I share this? Not in a, oh, I'll tell you something that's interesting about Esther, but

Rusty (17:56.543)
And that was good for me to go, okay, how do I share this, not in a, oh, I'll tell you something that's interesting about Esther, but how can we learn this in a way that actually drives us to do something about it or to learn something about God or to understand something more? So you're right, we might not remember those ah-hahs, but there's certainly value to them.

Clay (18:05.742)
How can we learn this in a way that actually drives us to do something about it, or to learn something about God, or to understand something more? So you're right, we might not remember those ahas, but there's certainly value to them. I don't want to discount that there's something powerful about learning.

Rusty (18:21.751)
I don't want to discount that there's something powerful. No, there are. I think maybe in the moment it's realizing, maybe I don't know as much as I thought I did, or God's a whole lot bigger than I thought He was, you know. That's good. So when you think about faith, you know, character, faith, depth, all these kind of things, just personally, Clay Scroggins, how do you grow in your faith? I mean, here's a guy that you were in full-time ministry, and now it's a little bit more nuanced. You...

Clay (18:28.494)
Yeah. That's good.

Rusty (18:47.479)
preach on the weekends, but you also do a lot of, you know, business consulting during the week. You've got, you know, I don't know, 25 kids you're raising at home. I'm sure it feels like that some days you're a little bit. Well, let's say it this way and the Myers Briggs, you're not a, you're not a J. Okay. So you're a little bit all over the place at times and, and you know, you, you own that probably growing in your faith is different than somebody else.

meticulous about their schedule or processes. So, what's that look like for you? Our third grader was telling me about this kid in his class. They go to a charter school, it's a public school, but so whenever he meets someone that has a faith, he's always like, oh my gosh, she's a Christian or he's a Christian. And he was explaining this person's faith and says that she gets up in the morning and has a devotional that she reads and then she writes down the verse.

Clay (19:22.638)
Our third grader was telling me about this kid in his class. They go to a charter school, it's a public school, so whenever he meets someone that has a faith, he's always, oh my gosh, she's a Christian or he's a Christian. And he was explaining this person's faith and says that she gets up in the morning and has a devotional that she reads and then she writes down the verse and puts it in this note card and files it in her system. And he said,

Rusty (19:45.943)
puts it in this note card and files it in her system. And he said, I just am so, he didn't use the word impressed, but that was what he was trying to say. I'm so impressed by her because her faith is so organized. And I've been laughing about that thinking about, yeah, that's, no one would accuse my faith of being organized, nor have I ever aspired to have a more organized faith.

Clay (19:51.214)
I just am so, he didn't use the word impressed, but that was what he was trying to say. I'm so impressed by her because her faith is so organized.

Clay (20:03.63)
And I've been laughing about that thinking about, yeah, that's, uh, no one would accuse my faith of being organized, nor have I ever aspired to have a more organized faith. My, um, but to your question that I, and at which I love the idea of simple faith, the, uh, the book when I was probably 23, 24, and I was just differentiating myself from my parents. I was trying to become my own person, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life. Um,

Rusty (20:17.208)
But to your question, which I love the idea of simple faith, the book when I was probably 23, 24 and I was just differentiating myself from my parents, I was trying to become my own person, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life, I was a real approval addict, I was a real acceptance, I was driven deeply by acceptance, always have been. And the book Search for Significance, do you remember that book? Oh yeah, absolutely.

Clay (20:33.486)
I was a real approval addict. I was a real acceptance. I was driven deeply by acceptance always have been. And the book search for significance. Do you remember that book, Rusty? Um, it was so impactful for me. And the answer to being an approval addict or playing the blame game or whatever all of our go-to is this author said, the answer is to go.

Rusty (20:46.311)
Um, it was so impactful for me. And the answer to being an approval addict or playing the blame game or whatever all of our go-to is this author said the answer is to go be aware of how loved you are and so that for me is my most consistent to do is.

Clay (21:03.342)
be aware of how loved you are. And so that for me is my most consistent to do is am I growing in awareness of how loved I am before any achievement or anything I've accomplished that God loves me just how I am and letting that be what...

Rusty (21:15.235)
Am I growing in awareness of how loved I am before any achievement or anything I've accomplished that God loves me just how I am? And letting that be what builds my confidence and holds me steady when things aren't going well.

Clay (21:34.126)
builds my confidence and holds me steady when things aren't going well and informs me on the days where I'm trying to find it in so many other places. Am I growing in my awareness of God's love for me?

Rusty (21:41.827)
and informs me on the days where I'm trying to find it in so many other places, is, am I growing in my awareness of God's love for me? Dare I say it, that was deep.

Seriously, man, that was strong. Really, really good. Great, great way to kind of land the plane on this conversation. Buddy, I just love talking with you. We always have a lot of laughs together. And I just want to say thank you for investing in so many leaders. Obviously your book, How to Lead When You're Not in Charge has impacted probably millions of people that are in that sticky situation of being in middle management trying to figure out.

how do I do this in a way that's respectful, but yet also making an impact? But I would say the aspiring guide for leaders, and I might be messing up the title, is equally as good, if not better. Maybe less sign-filled references, which I can always use more of those. But great, great stuff. And how to lead in a distracted world is also a solid read for everybody. But thank you.

for the way you've invested in leaders. Thank you for the way you've invested in this church. I now serve and thank you for the way that you've invested in a kingdom leaders for a very, very long time. So grateful for you, brother. Thanks for being on the show. Yeah. Thank you, Rusty. Thanks for taking your spotlight and shining in on me for a minute. I really appreciate that. Well, I'm excited to be back with you soon. Looking forward to it, buddy. We'll talk soon. Thank you.

Clay (23:03.694)
Well, yeah, thank you, Rusty. Thanks for taking your spotlight and shining it on me for a minute. I really appreciate that. Excited to be back with you soon.

Rusty (23:20.299)
That's perfect brother. Thank you. I get you done in time. Oh yeah, perfect. Oh man. Nine minutes of spare. We're gonna do I don't know. Go get a snack. Yeah. How's Alabama look for next year? We met the new coach the other day. That was fun. Really? Yeah. I do some work with the basketball team. Oh really? In town. Okay. Yeah. And we were sitting right behind him and his wife and his daughter.

Clay (23:22.478)
Great, short and sweet. Oh yeah, perfect.

Clay (23:29.806)
What are we gonna do? Go get a snack. What are we gonna do?

Clay (23:35.534)
Uh, we met the new coach the other day. That was fun. Um, yeah, I do some work with the basketball team and I was in town. Yeah. Um, and we were sitting right behind him and his wife and his daughter and couldn't be nicer, so different than Nick Saban, kind, approachable, genuine, not curmudgeon, not can tankerous. Uh,

Rusty (23:50.851)
And couldn't be nicer. So different than Nick Saban. Kind, approachable. Not curmudgeon. Not kintankerous. I loved how Nick came out and said he's going to help be a voice for college football. I thought, well, that's what they need. They need the angry old man. I think what he's saying is he's going to use his anger to say.

Clay (24:10.51)
I'm out.

I think what he's saying is he's going to use his anger to say, something's got to be fixed. This is broken.

Rusty (24:18.879)
Something's got to be fixed. Yeah, this NIL transfer portals and bunch of nonsense. You got to do something about it. How long have you worked with the basketball team? Since maybe two or three years. Nate Oates is new. He's not new. He's been there for four years now, but I've gotten to know him over the last few years and he brings me in to speak to the team some and a couple. Is the director of basketball operations and their strength and conditioning coach. I stay pretty connected with.

Clay (24:22.606)
They gotta do something about it. Since maybe two or three years, Nate Oates is new. He's not new. He's been there for four years now, but I've gotten to know him over the last few years. And he brings me in to speak to the team some. And then there's a couple, there's the director of basketball operations and their strength and conditioning coach. I stay pretty connected with.

Rusty (24:47.135)
So there was a girl on their staff named Elise Williams. Okay. Name ring a bell. She a wheelchair user? No. She was on their staff probably right before you got there. He's told me about her. Is she with the Mavs now? No, she's with, she's like an AD now at Buffalo College University. Anyway, she's the one I think I was telling you about that.

Clay (24:51.566)
Okay.

She a wheelchair user? No.

Clay (25:00.622)
He's told me about her. Is she with the Mavs now?

Clay (25:13.422)
Yeah.

Rusty (25:16.619)
her family are besties with Craig forgot his wife's name young Bryce Young's parents so she grew up with Bryce. Yeah anyway so she's their family was a buffalo now yeah from that's where Nato's was a buffalo. Oh okay. Oh that's right. Yeah they made a pretty deep run didn't they in the tournament and that's how I got the Alabama game.

Clay (25:26.638)
I'm

Clay (25:30.478)
And she's at Buffalo now. He's from, that's where NATO was at Buffalo.

Clay (25:40.846)
With Buffalo. Yeah. They beat. Yeah. They beat DeAndre Aitin's Arizona team. Big upset. That'll get you that old. That's how you double your paycheck.

Rusty (25:44.115)
Yeah, they beat DeAndre Aitin's Arizona team. Big upset. That's right. That's right. That's how you double your paycheck. That's right. All you got to do is knock off a contender. That's right. Well, okay, buddy. I don't know at least, but I'd love to hear. Yeah. All right. Have a great day. Thanks, buddy. Bye bye. See you.