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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
00:00:07:13 - 00:00:44:22
Andreas
Good morning. Good afternoon and good evening. Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the business leaders who are creating intentional cultures, who see their employees not as resources to be managed and directed, but as people that need to be led and inspired. My name is Andreas Konstantinou, and I'm your host. I'm an accidental micromanager who turned servant leader and over the years developed a personal passion for culture, which I've also turned into a business in the form of Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help create 1 million healthier and more fulfilling work cultures.
00:00:45:00 - 00:01:10:02
Andreas
Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Bruce Sullivan, who's a keynote speaker, author, and business leader, also voted Australian Keynote Speaker of the year. He is fortunate to teach people about culture, teams, and relationships, and he has a lot of entrepreneurial experience leading people, managing his first business since he was 19 and it was an ice cream and donut bar truck or shop, I think.
00:01:10:02 - 00:01:34:00
Andreas
And by 22 he was managing 130 staff in nine retail sites. He then moved into residential commercial real estate, supermarkets, 7-Eleven franchises, the lot. And eventually in the last few years into coaching and speaking. Lots more we are curious to hear about you and learn from you, Bruce. And very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast.
00:01:34:00 - 00:01:40:22
Bruce
Thank you very much, Andreas. And hi to everyone. Well, it is good morning, good evening, good afternoon. So, thanks for having us.
00:01:40:22 - 00:01:44:14
Andreas
And it's morning for me in Greece and it's evening for you in Australia.
00:01:44:14 - 00:01:45:15
Andreas
Where in Australia, Bruce?
00:01:45:15 - 00:01:57:07
Bruce
We are on the East Coast, pretty much in the middle of the capital city of the state of Queensland, Brisbane. Most people know Sydney, which is about 1000 kilometers, 600 miles to the south of us.
00:01:57:07 - 00:02:08:04
Bruce
So, we are further north, a little more warmer and temperate and we always like to argue that Queensland is beautiful one day and perfect the next. So that's the ad campaign anyway.
00:02:08:04 - 00:02:25:02
Andreas
All right, so we're here to talk about culture and what is culture to you to start with and what do you teach people when it comes to leadership and culture?
00:02:25:18 - 00:02:43:19
Bruce
I think the first thing that I teach people and particularly about culture, is a lot of people will say I need to go away and work on culture. I love reminding people that you've already got one and that, you know, we really need to pay attention to culture and I'm like going, yeah, that's great. Just remember you already have one.
00:02:43:23 - 00:03:03:00
Bruce
What is the current culture, where is your starting point? And people will say, I'm going to go and work on my leadership. You know, I want to improve my leadership and I want to lead by example and I go, well, that could be the problem. Maybe you have been and if you've been leading by example, maybe it's been well-intentioned, but potentially poor leadership and how would you know?
00:03:03:02 - 00:03:14:04
Bruce
So, getting excited to have the conversation of bringing some awareness into what's already there and then from there, windscreen is bigger than the rear vision mirror. So.
00:03:14:04 - 00:03:29:14
Andreas
And when do people come to you? Is that when they have issues with culture? Do they have this self-awareness that they need to change as leaders, or do they want to fix their business?
00:03:29:16 - 00:03:35:08
Andreas
Do they come in as parents who say their children are misbehaving and therefore someone needs to fix their children?
00:03:35:08 - 00:03:47:09
Bruce
Yeah, look. I think as long as I've been alive and at 58, I've seen many people that will send, well-intentioned leaders sending people off to training to, can you go and fix my staff, can you fix a leadership team?
00:03:47:09 - 00:04:06:11
Bruce
And I think one of the things that I learned is that you cannot outsource pain. That pain is yours to deal with. If you're sitting in that leadership role, that's your pain. So, you need to do something about it. It's the way we say to a business, let's look in the mirror before we look out the window. What do we need to pay attention to with us first?
00:04:06:13 - 00:04:37:07
Bruce
And I think that a lot of people want the fixing and there's a good group of people, and I'm really lucky to selfishly work with that group of people who go, I know where we are. I have an awareness. I understand, obviously, not just the commercial benefit of running a really good business with a really good culture. So, they see the goodwill and the balance sheet benefits of that culture, but they also go, it means a lot to our employees, it means a lot to our reputation as a place that people want to come and work.
00:04:37:07 - 00:05:06:13
Bruce
It means a lot to the reputation that we have with our customers as a result. You know, we're spending $18 million a year on marketing and we're sending staff off to Saturday night barbecue conversations, feeling quite disenfranchized with the culture or the leadership or the structure or the systems or the resources that support everything that we do, which means that a lot of that marketing money we spend is probably wasted because we've got 300 people out there not being raving fans about our own business, and that's just the employees.
00:05:06:13 - 00:05:24:21
Bruce
So how does that rub off and ripple out? So, I think the privilege as an educator and even as a businessman is being able to work with people not the, we want you to come and fix us. We've got some budget left over. Can you help? It's, this is our journey. We're here. We want to get to here.
00:05:24:21 - 00:05:34:05
Bruce
We know what amazing looks like. And we think we're at this particular point. How can you help us progress? And best briefing ever.
00:05:34:05 - 00:05:50:00
Andreas
How do you know if someone is malleable as a personality and is willing to learn from their own mistakes or their own blind spots? How do you know if you want to work someone, and you know that your work is going to pay off and they're going to see the light?
00:05:50:00 - 00:06:17:07
Bruce
I think if I get a sense that I'm not certain that this is a, we want to grow and develop and build our business versus fix it, I'm typically going to be asking people, and I think I've been lucky enough to earn the right to go, if you have someone working for you in your team and reporting to you that clearly does not want to commit to a constructed culture, a healthy, great place to work,
00:06:17:09 - 00:06:41:17
Bruce
what will you do with that person? What would be your thinking? What would be your strategy? What would you want to have happen? And if people then, oh, look, you got to go and meet this one person and, you know, we've tried to give it up on them, really, you know, they're just here and they do their thing and they're really good at what they do and they sell the most or they are the best logistics person we've ever had or whatever.
00:06:41:19 - 00:07:06:09
Bruce
If there's an apology or an excuse for someone, which would mean an action that they don't want to address that, then that's probably not my ideal client. My ideal client is, well, that would be a catalyst for a conversation. You know, if there's someone who's identified in this process that clearly doesn't want to grow or develop or move and get better with all of us, then they're probably not going to fit in our culture.
00:07:06:11 - 00:07:24:14
Bruce
The... you know, the saying that I say, you know, who would be the ants at the picnic? So, if you've ever been on a picnic and there's been even just one ant at a picnic, you might not want to kill the ant, but it would be nice if the ant wasn't there. Ants don't bring anything, they just come to gnaw away at what you bought.
00:07:24:16 - 00:07:45:23
Bruce
And nobody needs people like that in your organization in terms of culture and reputation, in terms of good physical and mental health. So, if they're prepared to act and have the conversation and even do something, then I feel quite optimistic that I might be working with someone who really wants to grow.
00:07:45:23 - 00:07:57:18
Andreas
Yeah. And being an entrepreneur yourself and having been an entrepreneur since you were 19 and you're in the speaking circuit,
00:07:57:18 - 00:08:09:07
Andreas
how do you see yourself versus speakers who don't have entrepreneurial experience and get to talk about how to, you know, fix your business?
00:08:09:12 - 00:08:11:19
Andreas
How do you see yourself differently?
00:08:11:19 - 00:08:15:01
Bruce
I think it's for almost how...
00:08:15:03 - 00:08:38:20
Bruce
It's a really good question. Thank you. And I'm really thinking what's the thing that makes the difference? I think it helps me how I see them differently to somebody who doesn't have that experience. So, when I look at my clients, I get a deeper sense of understanding, compassion, recognition, respect for what is required to run a business.
00:08:38:20 - 00:09:04:10
Bruce
So, you know, we can have the most amazing one-hour executive coaching session, identified the problem, understood the impact of not fixing that or changing it. The impact if it was adjusted or better, what would be the plan? And you can have all of that. And then as soon as we finish, they're down the corridor to the next meeting, going, you know, three of their top people look like they might be leaving and going to a competitor, what are we doing with that?
00:09:04:10 - 00:09:27:23
Bruce
You know, the engineer who walks outside to go, did we get that recruit? What happened with that? Did that bridge get up? Did the local government happy with those plans? What happened with that? You know, people go back to the busyness of everything. So how do you, whilst you're being busy, be better or get better? I have a real compassion to the realities of that, which gives me a privileged position.
00:09:28:01 - 00:09:55:08
Bruce
I think that when I am working with other business leaders, private sector or even the public sector, I know what it's like to be on a team. I know what it's like to lead a team. I know the heartbreaks and the failures and the frustrations and the joys and the exhilaration when it's at the beautiful part. I bring that to the platform when I'm speaking, but I also bring it in even into those one-on-ones, into the boardrooms when we're really working with that.
00:09:55:10 - 00:10:20:05
Bruce
So, I have some good insight and good empathy to how do you apply some of the theories, what's the evidence-based research saying? But what's even my own experience say with that, that I can use to relate? And I think the other thing, Andreas, is that every time I've done a coaching session, I feel like I almost want to pay my clients back because I've learned so much by listening and better understanding what their issue is.
00:10:20:08 - 00:10:35:22
Bruce
You know, I need some help with this. I've got a fellow executive doing this. What do I do with that? So, the privilege of getting to that one-on-one space as a provider, I find that really enriching, which means that I'm a better service to other leaders.
00:10:35:22 - 00:11:00:17
Andreas
And what… Couple of questions for you. What is the recipe you prescribe to your coachees often? Like, what areas do they need to address that you find recur again and again? And what areas do you find are the hardest to inspire and teach people about?
00:11:01:21 - 00:11:09:00
Bruce
Interesting… I'm always asking that I like people to look in the mirror before they look out the window.
00:11:09:00 - 00:11:39:05
Bruce
So, quite often a lot of people and even at the most senior level will find themselves excuse-making or blaming or apportioning significant amounts of the problem to the other person. So, when that's happening, it feels a little bit more like therapy and counseling than it does coaching. But then that opens up the opportunity to really bring it back to, okay, if that's the case, what are we going to do?
00:11:39:07 - 00:12:04:23
Bruce
What are we doing to actually progress that conversation? And interestingly enough, and it came up again today with two executives around getting cooperation across the business. People very busy in their own silo and not necessarily looking out across the business and thinking about what is happening and how am I impacting, also where I could even get support.
00:12:05:01 - 00:12:32:22
Bruce
And I talked about the Ury and Fisher workout at the Negotiation Project, Harvard Business School. If you've not looked it up, have a read through that. And they talk about increasing the frequency of interaction. How often are you interacting with people? Increase the interaction, the frequency of interaction. And even if you Google frequency of interaction and you'll have a look, you'll see ongoing research correlations with the effectiveness and the quality of that relationship
00:12:32:22 - 00:12:56:02
Bruce
when there is that increase in frequency of action, that frequency of action interaction. And you know, the example I use is that if I needed to do some gardening on the weekend and I think about all the people I know that might have a utility vehicle or a trailer that I could borrow to go and do the gardening work I needed, the easiest
00:12:56:02 - 00:13:14:17
Bruce
call that I can make it to the person who I just saw last Friday for a beer after work and the Friday before that for a beer after work and or every other month. You know, I see them regularly versus the guy I go Andreas has a really good truck, but I haven't spoken to him for four months because I've just been slack.
00:13:14:17 - 00:13:36:00
Bruce
That's an awkward phone call to make on a Friday night to say, hey, Andreas just wondering how things are going. And it would… it's just awkward as opposed to that frequency of interaction. So, I share those three keys, frequency of interaction, the brightness of the future, always painting the reason why there is benefit in us cooperating, which comes back to the intention.
00:13:36:02 - 00:13:54:00
Bruce
You know, our intention is to do everything we can to grow our reputation in the marketplace. Our intention is to grow our own people, to be able to move into leadership roles or certainly get genuine satisfaction here in this space. And we keep coming back to this intention. What do we want to be able to do? We want to be people knocking on our door.
00:13:54:04 - 00:14:11:06
Bruce
So, I'd love to work in this space. I've heard about it not just because of the product that they do or sell or the service they deliver, but just what it's like to work there. The culture apparently is amazing, and you know, I want to be there. So, let's keep talking about the brightness of the future, which is the intention piece.
00:14:11:08 - 00:14:40:11
Bruce
And then the last piece. If people aren't playing nicely, Ury and Fisher, someone's pushing it ten. They called it provoke ability, the ability to be provoked, to not just be... we're talking not about being furious or disrespectful, but hey, well, that's not okay. We need to have a chat. Someone's pushing it ten every time they send an email, they cc eight other people in on an email that really isn't helpful.
00:14:40:13 - 00:15:03:21
Bruce
And it causes, oh, it causes such a stir. And then, you know, when it comes back to them again, they'll add, oh, Jesus, two more. I'll add them into the next reply to be able to go to that person and hey look, I'd love to have a conversation with you because some things are happening that are not going to help us grow this business, that are not going to help us attract and retain the best talent, diminish our marketing value, etc...
00:15:03:21 - 00:15:32:23
Bruce
So, what is it? Well, you know, when you put that stuff in there, that doesn't help. But I needed a new agreement with you because that really has to stop, please. So, it's that capacity to be able to go and address respectfully issues. That's the pushing back. So that comes up a lot in the coaching with the second part of that, which was kind of embedded in there is that how often are you telling people about what your intentions are?
00:15:33:01 - 00:15:51:19
Bruce
How many times a week would I hear you go, look, thanks for doing that piece of work. If our goal is to live out this particular value of curiosity, I loved how you went back and you were curious, not furious. I really loved how you didn't get angry at that. You went, okay, well, that's interesting information. Appreciate the inquiry.
00:15:51:21 - 00:16:13:17
Bruce
What specifically were you unhappy with? I'd love to, you know, perhaps we could pick up the phone and have a chat. You know, I really love how that satisfies their value of curiosity, which obviously opens up doors and hearts and minds. It doesn't shut down relationships. And doing that, that's probably the two things. And you know, everyone's different and at different stages of their leadership development as well.
00:16:13:17 - 00:16:19:03
Bruce
But they're a couple that came twice today.
00:16:19:03 - 00:16:54:05
Andreas
I love this, the notion of communicating, the clarity of our intentions. And firstly, this reminds me of this saying, which is we like to be judged by our intentions, but we judge others by their actions. So everyone, I think our natural predisposition is to judge by other people's actions, because that's the face value or the surface level indication of
00:16:54:05 - 00:16:55:14
Andreas
what they want to do.
00:16:55:16 - 00:17:34:00
Andreas
But very often that's miscommunicated or misjudged, probably identical. And so if we are clear about our intentions and when we communicate and on the same time we're curious, like you said, about the other people's intentions, then we can do away with most of the damage of miscommunication, which comes from this loss in translation effect. Like I intend one thing and my actions communicate something entirely different.
00:17:34:00 - 00:17:55:23
Bruce
Oh, look, I agree and I think that is the key, regularly, how often are we communicating our intentions to the point that if I saw a behavior from my leader, I could... I've heard it that many times, I will judge them by their intention, not by their behavior.
00:17:56:01 - 00:18:00:16
Bruce
Or I will see how that behavior satisfies that intention.
00:18:01:03 - 00:18:01:21
Andreas
Right.
00:18:01:21 - 00:18:02:23
Bruce
That makes sense? I like...
00:18:02:23 - 00:18:06:22
Andreas
And one of the reasons, I guess... Yeah, go ahead.
00:18:06:22 - 00:18:22:22
Bruce
I was going to say, like in every form of communication, hey, guys, the intention of our meeting on Tuesday is to explore ideas on how else we could address this response in relation to this issue. I recognize that the final decision will sit with me.
00:18:23:04 - 00:18:50:13
Bruce
My intention before I actually make that final decision is to elicit as many ideas from you guys and opinions from you in the time frame that we have to make the most of that meeting time. Looking forward to discussing this on Tuesday. Warm regards, send. Hey, look, our intention is always to be sure we are making this a great place to work and the intention is that every person would play their part in making this a great place to work, not just one or two people.
00:18:50:14 - 00:19:14:02
Bruce
So, the reason for this email is to address some behavior that I recognize that is working against that intention. Please, we'll address this in our next team meeting and, you know, please come along with what you believe your part is in making this a great place to work. So, I think is how many times in a week will I hear you say that?
00:19:14:04 - 00:19:33:20
Bruce
So that when I look at your behavior, there's a good chance I can flip really quickly to I know where Andreas's going with this. This is about, you know, we spent 20 million bucks a year in marketing. And if we don't help manage that conversation at the Sunday night barbecue, we could be eroding the reputation of our business.
00:19:33:20 - 00:19:40:02
Bruce
So, the intention is to talk about the intention.
00:19:40:02 - 00:20:10:01
Andreas
I often hear the saying, you as a leader, you should not communicate, you should overcommunicate. You shouldn't state, you should repeat. And actually, one very good reason for this is that people need to hear you say the same thing in not just many times, because that needs to be imprinted into memory, but in different ways so that they can actually judge the intention behind the words.
00:20:10:02 - 00:20:41:00
Andreas
And very often we're not clear as leaders like this is why we're doing this, this is why we're cutting costs or this is why we're creating a new department or this is why we have to change our strategy. And, you know, there's always good intentions and very rarely bad intentions, but they're miscommunicated, and they're misperceived as a result.
00:20:41:00 - 00:20:42:06
Bruce
Yeah. And...
00:20:42:16 - 00:20:43:12
Andreas
Moving,
00:20:43:12 - 00:20:56:15
Bruce
Can I just add one thing? Not even just... I think a lot of people will say they have good intentions and my question straight away will be, oh, good, what are they? And they go, what do you mean?
00:20:56:18 - 00:21:24:07
Bruce
Well, what are your good intentions? What are you actually intending to do? What is your intention for culture, for leadership, for reputation, for engagement, etc., for your own personal reputation? And so, I think that a lot of people don't even know what their intentions are, which means that they have very little chance of communicating them regularly. So, getting really clear on what you want to be famous for, what you want the business to be famous for, and then communicating that readily really does help.
00:21:24:07 - 00:21:51:20
Andreas
Bruce, before we move on to something else, I want to play this quick quiz with you, which I like to play with my guests, which is the Two Truths and One Lie, among other things, because this is, I think, reveals interesting stories and facets of one's personality. So what are two truths or three truths for you without revealing what a lie is?
00:21:51:20 - 00:22:35:13
Bruce
Hmm, okay. Well, although I'm 58 and I still remember in 1978, so I was 13 at the time, that I won a Yamaha organ competition playing Stars and Stripes Forever on the organ on this big majestic organ. So that was a very glamorous moment in my life. I have had my nose, and you can see it's probably not that straight, but I've had my nose broken six times playing martial arts initially kung fu and then jiu jitsu for 30 odd years.
00:22:35:13 - 00:22:45:02
Bruce
And yes, six times I've had that nose broken. So very sensitive. Now I'm not playing that sport anymore.
00:22:46:12 - 00:22:48:02
Andreas
I won't come too close to you.
00:22:48:02 - 00:23:01:11
Bruce
Yeah, yeah. Look, I tell people the best way to win a fight, you may end all by 500 meters is to run away. If it looks like there's enough trouble, be fit enough to run. That's the best option.
00:23:01:13 - 00:23:26:15
Bruce
And there's like... there was a couple that I was going to say. I'm just trying to think of that. Which one would be the most fun one. At my year 12 at the school I went to, I literally was awarded Mr. Sandgate High. That was the name of the suburb I lived in, Mr. Sandgate High. So that was year 12 actually.
00:23:26:15 - 00:23:29:03
Bruce
So, there's my three truths.
00:23:29:03 - 00:23:31:17
Andreas
Was that a derogatory?
00:23:31:17 - 00:23:33:19
Andreas
Was that derogatory, or was that..
00:23:33:19 - 00:24:02:04
Bruce
it was a community fundraising effort and different people would be entered and then you'd be judged. We all had to raise money and it was based on, you know, community service, academia, attendance, citizenship. There was a range of different things. I mean, I'm no stellar academic at all, but I was paying attention in grade 12 and I was awarded and Joanne, I don't say her surname, my Miss
00:24:02:04 - 00:24:14:05
Bruce
Sandgate High. We even worked at KFC together in year 12, so we were out there playing our part, earning some pocket money.
00:24:14:05 - 00:24:37:12
Andreas
Very good. All right, so we'll get to which one is a truth and which is a lie at the end of the podcast. I want to go back into your early years as an entrepreneur. So you dove into entrepreneurship very early at 19. You told me you had 130 staff by age 22, which is a lot of responsibility for a young age.
00:24:37:12 - 00:24:42:23
Andreas
What were some of these formative lessons? And I'm sure you, you know, you
00:24:42:23 - 00:24:54:13
Andreas
hit a wall many times in those early years like every entrepreneur does. What were those, some of those early moments that taught you life lessons?
00:24:54:13 - 00:25:04:03
Bruce
I was an entrepreneur accidentally in grade 10. I started my own business, then accidentally...
00:25:04:03 - 00:25:05:15
Andreas
How old is that?
00:25:05:15 - 00:25:16:21
Bruce
15 years of age. I was… so 15 years old. I did a lot of community service work at that particular stage of my life in years 8, 9 and 10.
00:25:16:21 - 00:25:51:15
Bruce
So, my 13, 14, 15 years high school here in Australia, and that was at the discretion of the local Magistrates Court and the judge would sentence me to 30 hours or 60 hours of community service for my crimes. And as a juvenile I would be picked up from school on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays and I would be taken out for 2 hours Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays to do 6 hours of my community service work and I would wash police cars, I would mop out the courthouse, I would vacuum out the police station.
00:25:51:21 - 00:26:16:10
Bruce
And as I got older, later into grade 8, I got to mow lawns for the elderly and the infirm. So, this is 1978 in the history of the world, and I'm mowing lawns and it's hot. It's in year 10 and I'm still mowing lawns and I'm still doing crimes against the community. And I mowed one lady's lawn and she actually spoke to me.
00:26:16:13 - 00:26:33:04
Bruce
No one ever spoke to me, ever. I was the criminal and the prisoner and there was the police officer, and they would speak to the police and she came up and she goes, well, I've not met you before young men, and you've done a great job here. You've got a good energy about you. I like what you've done with my lawn.
00:26:33:09 - 00:26:49:04
Bruce
Are you coming back next week? And I said, I will be in and see you next Tuesday. And I'm thinking, this is weird. No one ever talks to the prisoner. She came back the following week and we did go and do her house at the same time, Tuesday, 4:00. And she said, are you coming back next week to mow my grass?
00:26:49:04 - 00:27:16:16
Bruce
And I said, oh, look, I won't be. I've actually finished my 90 hours and I'm sure there would be someone else. And I was absolutely certain there would be someone else because most of the people that I went to school with went to jail in the end, particularly up until grade 10, the big joke for a grade 10 photograph was that to the 12 of us left, out of the 38 that started at the beginning of the year was that we should do one photo from the front and one photo from the side just for fun for the school photo.
00:27:16:18 - 00:27:39:07
Bruce
And then I tried to convince her and then she really narrowed in on me and she said, well, I've got an idea for you young man, you'll get a mower and you'll get a wheel to do the edges with and you'll come back and mow my grass next week. And while you're busy mowing my grass, you won't be getting into mischief.
00:27:39:09 - 00:27:59:11
Bruce
Now, she was more scary than the magistrate and you know, I don't know if it was the facial hair or the tea or the shoes. She was scary. And I looked at the copper and I looked back at her and I go, okay. And she goes, I'll pay you some money. See you next Tuesday, 4:00. The short story at the end of that about I mowed her lawn
00:27:59:13 - 00:28:21:22
Bruce
every week, she had a new customer for me. I was mowing two lawns a week and then four lawns a week. And as it got a little cooler and the grass didn't need mowing, every week she goes, I've got five gardens here and you'll take all the grass out of those, and I'll have some plants for you and you can play at those and I'll pay you $3 for that too.
00:28:22:02 - 00:28:49:16
Bruce
$3 was a lot of money in 1979 that we are in now, and I couldn't even think what to do with $3. I've stole everything that I needed and, you know, $0.50 to give people listening an idea, $0.50 in Australia, which was half a dollar. She's given me $3. So 50 cents could get you a can of Coke and a Mars bar back in 1979 if you paid for them, right?
00:28:49:16 - 00:29:10:07
Bruce
So, I never have paid for them. But apparently that's what they cost if you paid for them. And ten weeks into that relationship, she sits me down, gives me a lemonade, and she puts her arm around me and she and it's I'm freaking out. But she says, you need to understand something, Bruce, that if you solve problems for people, people pay you money.
00:29:10:08 - 00:29:30:07
Bruce
But if you cause problems for people, people pay money for you to go away. And it's like this smack in there she goes, what does it cost me to keep your mates in the local jail? What do I get? Nothing. I paid you $15, this yard hasn't looked so good since my husband died. And it's like, alright then.
00:29:30:09 - 00:29:50:15
Bruce
I didn't really quite understand, but she was like, if you solve problems to people, people pay you money. If you cause problems for people, people pay money to you to go away. And so, my whole life I've been looking at how do I solve problems for people. Because people pay you money when you solve problems for them. When you started a job, you want to solve problems for the company and for the customer.
00:29:50:15 - 00:30:11:15
Bruce
So, what happens? What's the environment, the structure, the systems, the resources that can support that? If you cause problems for a company, they'll pay money for you to go away too. It's like, it's expensive and it's bad, and I've been using that forever is my underlying philosophy, and, I mowed. She said, I have a new customer for you, and I said, who is it?
00:30:11:15 - 00:30:31:19
Bruce
And she goes, he's crazy. People mow his law once they never go back, I can get you $25, but I want a $5 commission. This is two years into our six-year relationship. And I said, okay. And I went and mowed his grass. And I came back to Mrs. Evans, and I said, the guy is crazy. When he paid me, he threw the five $5 notes right in my face, what am I supposed to do?
00:30:31:19 - 00:30:51:00
Bruce
And she said, well, you hopefully pick them up because one of those is mine. Thank you very much. And then straight on the end of that, she gave me the next bit of feedback that I would use the rest of my life. My job was to go and serve him, not to judge him. You do not get paid for both. Every single staff member that's ever worked in our team
00:30:51:00 - 00:31:15:13
Bruce
will know we are here to serve people, we're not here to judge them. We don't get paid to both. And you won't have the time and energy for both. So, in tribute to my formative years, they were the two principles that I took in to. Thank you, Mrs. Evans. Bless you wherever you are, these days. But if I ever had a book written about my life or a movie, it would be called Thank you, Mrs. Evans.
00:31:15:14 - 00:31:18:04
Bruce
That was the beginning of that.
00:31:18:04 - 00:31:19:23
Andreas
Maybe you should.
00:31:19:23 - 00:31:20:16
Bruce
It's
00:31:20:16 - 00:31:24:10
Andreas
Maybe you should. These are some stories that need to be retold.
00:31:24:10 - 00:31:55:03
Bruce
Yeah. And look, I get the privilege of the platform to share that from time to time. Of course. And people, you know, I ask leaders to go, who could you be a Mrs. Evans for? Who could be the person who is increasing the frequency of interaction, the brightness of the future, and giving me that provoke-ability, being able to push back at me and go, listen here, young man, you know, you're going to come back here next week and while you're busy mowing my grass, you won't be getting into mischief.
00:31:55:04 - 00:32:14:13
Bruce
Someone who had the courage to see potential. She wasn't trying to... I think there might have been a bit of fixing in there. But sometimes that's what we do with people. You give them an opportunity to grow, and it fixes them in the old language, but it literally helps them just reach their own awareness around this could be better and different.
00:32:14:15 - 00:32:33:13
Bruce
And it was the impact. She was the one that taught me about not just the intention but the impact. If you want to have a conversation with people, start about the impact. You know what? I'm thinking about spending some money because I want to have something to do every afternoon. I miss my husband like crazy. And you know what?
00:32:33:14 - 00:32:49:05
Bruce
Now that you put those plants in for me, what does it mean to me? It means that I have something meaningful to do. I get to every day, go, and water those plants. I pull the weeds out. I feel like I can digest that problem. The yard hasn't looked so good since my husband died. I love coming back out into the yard again.
00:32:49:07 - 00:33:11:04
Bruce
It's been really good for my health, and it's been really good to see you help me do that. And she was talking about it's the impact of what you do. That's the rocket fuel for the next activity, that's just the thing that keeps people going. When that happens, it's not the behavior piece. And I've spent a lifetime teaching this to people.
00:33:11:05 - 00:33:33:07
Bruce
Everyone's got good intentions, even people that steal from people. You know, I've got a good intention. I've got two children, I've got a mortgage, I need to earn extra money to keep up my drug habit and pay the mortgage and make sure I feed the kids. But the impact of that is quite a negative one. And so, when I'm talking to my team, I'm talking about impact.
00:33:33:07 - 00:33:54:23
Bruce
Impact, impact. What does this mean if we do this? Well, that's the brightness of the future piece. What does this mean if this... our customers have this experience, what will that mean then for profitability, reputation, word of mouth, net promoter score, blah, blah, blah. And I'd rather rave on about the intention and the impact than by the way, everyone, we got all these things to do.
00:33:55:01 - 00:34:11:13
Bruce
People put their hands in their heads and going a long list of more things to do. People engage more when they understand the intention and then what it means and that impact. And thank you, Mrs. Evans. She was a remarkable person.
00:34:11:14 - 00:34:14:13
Andreas
Thank you, Mrs. Evans, then.
00:34:14:13 - 00:34:19:00
Bruce
Interesting question, by the way,
00:34:19:00 - 00:34:54:07
Andreas
I know that, actually, talking about the impact is one of my favorite ways for giving feedback to both children and staff, which is explaining what they did, the action, the impact that it caused, and then how I felt, maybe also how others feel. But I prefer to talk about myself, so how I felt about the impact, not the action.
00:34:54:09 - 00:35:13:23
Andreas
Because the action might have had different intentions, as you say, but about the impact. And moving to something related, because I know you care a lot about personal development of people, both the people you coach and your staff.
00:35:14:01 - 00:35:28:00
Andreas
How do you help people develop, like to use a framework? Is it more abstract? Is it more like an intention, or do you use a set of steps to help people develop?
00:35:28:00 - 00:35:30:09
Bruce
I try to keep it simple.
00:35:30:15 - 00:35:51:02
Bruce
Having the deepest respect for the rest of their world and a compassion for what it's like. And, you know, you're in this PD moment. I always ask people right from the start to talk to me and decide what you want to be famous for. And in a whole different series of categories, it's what do you want to be famous for in terms of your competency?
00:35:51:02 - 00:36:08:21
Bruce
Like when people trust people that are competent, it's one of the trust factors. So, what's your intention in terms of that space and getting tasks done? What do you want to be famous for? What's your intention in terms of the relationships that you want to have? What's your intention for the reputation of the team that you will serve?
00:36:09:02 - 00:36:31:12
Bruce
What do you want that to be like? What's the intention that you have for your own personal wellbeing and the wellbeing of others? And so, I will start people around those four areas looking at task relationship, the team. What do you, what's the intention for your relationship with the team and what that means and then the wellbeing of you and your team as a way to go,
00:36:31:14 - 00:36:54:10
Bruce
everything else that we do needs to be able to come back. Is this helping you progress that intention? If you did that well, what would the impact be? So, if you did all of those things magnificently well or better than what you do, what would be ideal impacts? What would that mean for... And again, the ripple, multiple stakeholders that we will impact.
00:36:54:12 - 00:37:13:07
Bruce
What does it mean to your partner and your family when you go home at the end of the day, if you've built that reputation with your team or that relationship with your team and you are flooded with discretionary effort, people going out of their way to help you on a regular basis, people looking out for each other, task and relationship wise, what will that mean?
00:37:13:07 - 00:37:32:12
Bruce
What's the impact of that on your family? You know, you'd go home with a fuller cup than an emptier cup. You'll go home feeling, how is work? You know what? It was actually really good. Had a great day. It was tough. We had some big decisions to make, but gosh, it was good. So, what's the impact done ideally, what's the current impact?
00:37:32:12 - 00:37:56:06
Bruce
How are you currently impacting? What does that look like? I'm not even talking about behavior yet. What's the current impact? Right? If you don't change that, what's that going to be like for you in two years' time, three years' time, five years' time, building up that attention for change, if you like. The dissatisfaction with the current reality is the phrase that use.
00:37:56:08 - 00:38:14:20
Bruce
Okay, what are you going to do more of? What are you going to do less of? And I know that's oversimplifying at some level, but that's the real bones of the way that I've learned to just get that momentum going, culture, leadership, target, etc.
00:38:14:20 - 00:38:26:19
Andreas
I love the principle of asking someone what would you be proud of? Is that how you called it or something similar?
00:38:27:00 - 00:38:28:17
Andreas
What would make you proud?
00:38:28:17 - 00:38:30:19
Bruce
Yeah. How it
00:38:30:19 - 00:38:57:02
Andreas
What do you want to be? That's right. Well, what do you want to be famous for? Because that touches on a very sentimental chord. That is very deep within us and touches our true self in that respect. And then you also touch on the chord of, like, in a few years' time, how do you see yourself and where do you want to see yourself?
00:38:57:02 - 00:38:57:19
Andreas
So,
00:38:57:19 - 00:39:17:15
Andreas
it's a very simple but very clever way. From the sounds of it, of helping someone connect with their emotions. Project themself in the future and see what is the real impact they want to have in life, and then ties it back to their current actions and how it helps them get to the impact. I love it.
00:39:17:17 - 00:39:18:11
Andreas
Bruce…
00:39:18:11 - 00:39:30:17
Bruce
sometimes, Andreas, on that point, they don't have to then, deciding what the strategies and the behaviors are can be more self-directed then injected.
00:39:30:19 - 00:39:53:08
Bruce
So, if you wanted to, to get to that outcome and you were here, what do you think then you could do more or less of? Because currently you have great strategies to even get to this point. What are those strategies that you need to amplify, work on to make more of automatic default response to life as opposed to the ones that you're defaulting to now?
00:39:53:10 - 00:39:57:16
Bruce
And quite often they can identify a lot of that themselves? Yeah.
00:39:57:16 - 00:40:00:20
Andreas
Bruce, when it comes to culture,
00:40:00:20 - 00:40:08:01
Andreas
as the title of the podcast might say, I like to rethink a lot, and I think we need to rethink a lot about culture. But
00:40:08:01 - 00:40:14:06
Andreas
when it comes to the way you understand culture, what is misunderstood? What do we need to rethink about?
00:40:14:06 - 00:40:36:23
Bruce
I think if I'm getting technical just for a moment, I think a lot of people mix up climate and culture, so they'll do a climate survey and think that that's their culture and climate can change on a regular basis. You know, we all have moments where we feel great about the company or less great about the company.
00:40:37:00 - 00:41:02:04
Bruce
You know, we've just had to make an announcement that our pay rise this year is only going to be 2%, not the 3.5 that lines up with inflation or, you know, you have things that will deepen, you know, potentially negative sentiment against an organization, but that can change depending on the culture. So, if you've got a culture
00:41:02:04 - 00:41:09:02
Andreas
So, climate is fleeting, But... But culture is evergreen, or culture is longer term. But
00:41:09:10 - 00:41:19:09
Bruce
Yeah no I think that's… I like the… it is fleeting. Climate will change based on mood. The culture, what sits underneath that?
00:41:19:09 - 00:41:43:21
Bruce
So where would a message land on a constructive culture? Hey, you know, one of the conversations today, I have a travel ban at the moment and if the culture is not right, you have the responses to the travel ban. If it's not managed right by the leadership, which influence the culture, which then influences what happens with all that messaging, then it lands on, which is what was the problem,
00:41:43:21 - 00:42:10:10
Bruce
everyone's just talking, oh, we've got this travel ban, we can't do anything. This is ridiculous. Like, how are we supposed to still do this and maintain this customer service standard and our service agreements with that? And if you've got this very aggressive, passive defensive culture, that's what happens, which means that productivity goes from really good to less than good, people disengage or have another reason to disengage.
00:42:10:12 - 00:42:38:04
Bruce
And that has a negative impact. Oh, the travel ban's over. Well, about bloody time, you know, that should have happened like, you know, this is ridiculous. It never should have happened in the first place. This is ridiculous. So, the meeting before and the meeting after the meeting, that's the culture. That's the actual culture. You know, all of us can go into a meeting and be polite and helpful and respectful and pretend to be the best version of ourselves and get through that.
00:42:38:06 - 00:43:06:12
Bruce
The meeting before and the meeting after is the actual culture, and there's a real misalignment with that. People think if I do all the right things and I get back and I say to you, yeah, we've still got this stupid travel ban, like it doesn't make any sense. And then I just take, you know, eight more people for another 10 minutes complaining about the travel ban versus a well led, well-constructed culture that people know why there is a travel ban.
00:43:06:12 - 00:43:22:07
Bruce
And we go, would you be coming to Brisbane for that meeting? No, I'm just doing my bit at the moment to make sure that we've nailed our costs over the next 6 to 8 weeks, just until those revenues bounce back to where they need to be and what size revenues bounce back. I will happily be in Brisbane.
00:43:22:07 - 00:43:44:23
Bruce
For now, we're just doing teams meetings to make sure that we can keep the communication going. So that's the meeting before and after the meeting. In the meeting somebody goes, you know, apparently, we can't come to see you because there's a travel ban. Yeah, look, thanks for playing your part in that, because that literally will mean a very immediate increase in cash flow for the business, decrease in expenses.
00:43:44:23 - 00:44:07:03
Bruce
And it you know, it still gives us a chance to connect, but we just need to do it for teams next maybe 2 to 3 months until there's a reassessment. So how can I help? What's going to be the meeting about? You know, like everyone gets back to work, you know, people have a point, and you go, So I think the culture is palpable.
00:44:07:05 - 00:44:38:15
Bruce
And I know you're doing work and I'm quite inspired and very curious about what you're doing and how do you take this, what at times seems not measurable to making it more like there is a quantitative, measurable difference in the productivity. If you've got the first culture that I was playing out there where everyone's focused on the travel ban versus a culture where people are focused on, hey, I'm just playing my part in reducing our cash flow requirements so that we can meet all of our obligations.
00:44:38:15 - 00:44:58:22
Bruce
And until those revenues bounce back as projected, those contracts come online. Then we might go back to a bit of normal. But for now, good to see you and team. So, there is a qualitative difference in that. There's money attached to that and yeah, for every $10 million of payroll that you've got, yeah, it adds up.
00:44:58:22 - 00:45:08:06
Andreas
And it is. It is measurable. Like I… like I say I like… I have a passion for turning culture into a KPI. But
00:45:08:06 - 00:45:10:01
Bruce
that's good.
00:45:10:01 - 00:45:16:08
Andreas
moving to a, moving to a closing topic as we wrap up.
00:45:16:08 - 00:45:25:05
Andreas
If you were an entrepreneurial Mrs. Evans or Mr. Evans, and you would want to create a workplace
00:45:25:05 - 00:45:39:13
Andreas
that would be someone's best place from which to develop or best job over, where would you start?
00:45:39:13 - 00:46:04:16
Bruce
I would start with a very clear intention that that is our intention. And then we're going to communicate that every time and to every single person. You need to be able to set that intention as well that you want to be famous for making this a great place to work. So that intention is set. So, you know, the people in our learn to swim businesses, for example, everyone knows they play their part and right from the start, that would be it.
00:46:04:16 - 00:46:43:15
Bruce
Everyone is going to have a job to play. You cannot be unemployed in the culture here. You are employed in creating a great place to work through how you think and how you act, etc. And then I think that makes me think because again, I'm old and there's so much momentum in the businesses that we have. But I think creating psychological safety so that people know that if you're here and you are making the effort, we've got your back, that we would teach you have a really emotionally intelligent relationship and love for feedback so that you can see feedback is just rocket fuel.
00:46:43:16 - 00:47:13:10
Bruce
And we've got to teach you how to be able to receive that and use it in a really psychologically safe way and that then you can grow and then you'll grow quickly and you'll grow with many opinions and open to many ideas on how you can be amazing and to, you know, teaching people to be curious, not critical, teaching people to look for what's the positive intention, not condoning the bad behavior, what was their intention?
00:47:13:11 - 00:47:33:02
Bruce
You know, my daughter spills milk when she's eight, trying to pour a three liter milk container. It would be easy to get distracted by the behavior. But if I think about what her intention was, she was practicing pouring, developing some independence and she made a mistake. I notice what happened. How can I help?
00:47:33:02 - 00:47:35:01
Andreas
Or she was just having fun.
00:47:35:01 - 00:47:48:12
Bruce
Yeah, maybe. I even thought and that's an actual example where I will tell people that in hindsight, I thought that maybe she was also going, Dad, you're reading the newspaper, you stay there.
00:47:48:14 - 00:48:07:11
Bruce
I'm going to do this by myself. So, I don't want to disturb you, Dad. I don't want to. It could have been an act of reciprocity. Her wanting to get back in the most positive ways. So that's the beginning of the culture that I would create that feedback is going to be our friend. It's going to be needed and we've got your back.
00:48:07:11 - 00:48:19:01
Bruce
We want you to learn and play and fail and learn and play and fail and just keep getting better and you'll get better quicker when you can do that in that environment
00:48:19:08 - 00:48:41:21
Andreas
So, if there's one thing I'm taking away from this podcast, it's we need to be crystal clear about our intentions, and we need to be curious about other people's intentions and not judge by their actions alone. And as a final question to you, Bruce, do tell us which are the truths and what was the lie in the three truths?
00:48:41:21 - 00:48:53:20
Bruce
It is true that I won the Yamaha organ competition, playing Stars and Stripes Forever in my suit, purple I think it was, with the big frills down the front.
00:48:53:20 - 00:49:25:09
Bruce
I still remember doing it. It was 1978. Come on, that was the color. It is also true that I was Mr. Sandgate High at the high school that I went to, and Joanne was Miss Sandgate High and we raised a whole lot of money and had the whole contest. It's also true that I've had my nose broken doing cage fighting, mixed martial arts, but it's only true that it's happened four times, not six times.
00:49:25:09 - 00:49:50:11
Bruce
And the fourth time was not even in the ring competing. It was, I gave a brown belt, a lady who was tiny, I said, I want you to throw me a straight punch. And then I took a breath to explain to her what was going to happen next, and she just threw the straight punch at me. Bam, smacked me straight in the head and then opened up my nose for the fourth time and blood's coming out.
00:49:50:11 - 00:50:00:13
Bruce
I'm like going, I'm about to tell you what's going to happen next. And she was like, I'm so sorry. That was fun. So yeah, that was my
00:50:00:13 - 00:50:02:08
Andreas
Took it too literally.
00:50:02:08 - 00:50:05:11
Bruce
00:50:05:16 - 00:50:41:21
Andreas
Bruce. Bruce, it's been a real pleasure. I'm learning a lot. I'm taking a lot of notes. I'm going to be using what do I want to be famous for and what others want to be famous for more often. So, thank you for sharing the story with Mrs. Evans. Again something I will carry with me, and I hope you inspire lots more leaders to be intentional about their actions and curious about others' actions and to always learn.
00:50:41:23 - 00:51:06:06
Andreas
And for everyone else listening thank you for staying with us. Do hit the subscribe button so you don't miss the next few episodes. We have some wonderful guests coming. And don't forget to tell us what you think or who we should be inviting next by emailing rethink@rethinkculture.co and very much keep leading everyone. And thank you again, Bruce.
00:51:06:06 - 00:51:15:06
Bruce
It's been a pleasure. Thank you everyone for listening and thanks Andreas, may you continue your good work, not just in your business, but in helping all of us rethink culture.
00:51:15:06 - 00:51:17:20
Bruce
I think that's awesome.