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Licensed psychologist Dr. Jen McWaters, and wellness coach Kaitlin Reed, join forces to help women create an abundant life through holistic wellness practices, mindset shifts, and fostering a healthy relationship with food and their bodies. Join us as we take a deep dive and uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond, offering insights and strategies for transformative growth.
Dr. Jen McWaters is a licensed psychologist and a holistic wellness coach for women. She is a Certified Integrative Mental Health Professional and is passionate about helping high-achieving women overcome their mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, and create an abundant life inside and out. Find out more about her work at: awakeningholistichealth.com
Kaitlin Reed is a fitness, nutrition, and mental wellness coach on a mission to help women build the body and life they deserve and desire. She has BAs in Health Promotion and Wellness & Fitness Management, MA in Performance Psychology, currently pursuing her Ph.D. in Health Psychology. Her goal is to help women finally understand the science and strategy of nutrition and exercise so they can achieve their goals and live an empowered life. Head over to kaitlinreedwellness.com to learn more.
DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your personal physician if you have any personal medical questions.
Welcome to the Counter Culture Health podcast. I'm doctor Jen McWaters. And I'm coach Kaitlyn Reed. We're here to help high achieving women overcome mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, create an abundant life, and build the body and life that they deserve and desire. In this weekly podcast, we'll uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond.
Intro:Let's get to it.
Jen:Alright. Welcome back to Counterculture Health. And today, I'm so excited to have a new guest on our show. Her name is Abby. Abby is a registered nurse turned screen time and nervous system coach.
Jen:After growing it up or sorry, growing disillusioned with Western medicine's focus on disease rather than true health, she became passionate about addressing one of today's most overlooked risks to well-being, chronic screen use. Blending neuroscience, trauma informed education, and spiritual practices, Abby guides people back to presence, peace, and purpose through her digital detox program. She teaches a no willpower approach to setting tech boundaries and shares stress regulation tools to support nervous system health in our constantly connected world. Abby's work is all about helping people break free from tech overwhelm and build lasting habits for better mental and emotional health. Welcome, Abby.
Abby Payne:Thank you, Jen. It's so great
Jen:to be here. Thanks for having me. Yes. We are so excited. I'm so excited.
Jen:Caitlin can't join us today, but you and I have areas of overlap, and I just think this topic is so incredibly important. So that's why I wanted to invite you on today. Being a therapist coach myself, like, I just know how much screen time gets in the way of mental health and well-being, even physical health for a lot of people. So I'm just so excited to meet you and get to learn more about how you really help people with this problem, which is pretty pervasive in my experience. So with that, let me start this out with our foundational question of what about what you do makes you countercultural to the mainstream?
Abby Payne:Oh, that's a good question. The thing that pops to my mind first is that it's preventative. And so much of the mainstream is disease treatment and all about, you know, making money on insurance, and it's so reactive. And our system isn't proactive, not as much as I would like it to be. So everything in my programs and in how I help people is to help prevent them from getting to an area of burnout, developing diabetes, hypertension, things down the road that are going to impact them.
Abby Payne:So that's the number one way that I feel like it's countercultural. And then the other way is that it's spiritual. You know, it's a holistic approach, mind, body, and spirit. And I don't know what the spirit is. I don't know what this invisible force is within us that makes us breathe and have our being, but it's there.
Abby Payne:And when I recognize that with my clients and we lean into the more spiritual aspect of beingness, then it unlocks a lot. So I feel like that's countercultural in my approach as well.
Jen:Yes. And I've met a lot of people in the health care space that has shifted out of that partly because they really believe in preventative care and doing that work before it gets to a place of crisis. So I wanna learn more about how did you get to where you are from nursing? Like, how how did you get here as far as inspiration? Anything that led you to move out of that traditional space to do what you do now?
Abby Payne:Yeah. It's a great, probably somewhat predictable story, but it was the pandemic that really spurred it on. I was already burned out when the pandemic hit. I've been an RN for ten years now and did a couple years in medical surgical, just basic adult hospital nursing. I got accepted to a cardiac ICU residency program, and I started in February 2020.
Abby Payne:So very quickly after that, most of our experienced ICU nurses were leaving to New York, Los Angeles to make a lot of money doing travel nursing. And I quickly became one of the most experienced nurses on the unit with just a few years of experience. True new grad baby nurses all around me just out of school. And they started giving me, you know, pretty sick patients, patients I shouldn't have been getting had things been otherwise. And they don't teach nurses how to take care of themselves.
Abby Payne:They teach us how to take care of other people. They never in nursing school covered nervous system regulation, the stress response, how to ground your body, it is completely missing from the curriculum. And so all of us struggled during the pandemic and, you know, a lot of us were drinking. I was on night shift. So 7PM to 7AM, I was working.
Abby Payne:I was not sleeping. I was losing patience every shift and just really struggling with my mental health. So I started drinking a little bit more, watching tons of TV, and scrolling on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and Facebook and back to Instagram all day on my days off. It completely consumed me. I really had a hard time getting off of it.
Abby Payne:I didn't find anybody to really help me more than just a little article online. I really needed specific support to get off my screens, and that's when I realized I think this is a public health crisis, and there's a gap here. And as an RN, I'm passionate about public health. I think it's up to me to fill this gap and learn everything I can about it. So that's what I did.
Jen:Wow. And you're right. I mean, in in a lot of health care fields, there's very little to no training or even mentorship on how to take care of yourself, how to set boundaries, how to recognize even some of the signs and symptoms of burnout. So do you feel like given that you were in that space for a while, do you feel like it's it's very pervasive even among, like, the doctors and the other medical staff you encountered? Was it pretty The burnout?
Jen:Yeah. Burnout people. And both made. The burnout, but also, like, the the over screen usage. Did you find that among your peers as well?
Jen:Absolutely. Yeah.
Abby Payne:Yeah. There was no real coping skills going on. Doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, I don't even think we really knew what real coping skills were. Like, all of the conversations I had with my coworkers, like, it was all about numbing. And I had a realization as I left the ICU, I had acute stress disorder, depersonalization, derealization, had to leave.
Abby Payne:And as I was decompressing and in therapy and learning about all these things, I was like, oh, there's an actual science to this. This isn't woo woo. This is physiology. This is your vagus nerve. This is your parasympathetic response, and there's a way to train it.
Abby Payne:And I was really shocked that not even none of the doctors nobody had ever told me about this in my ten year career. So, yeah, I feel like it's really pervasive that we aren't taught how to really take care of ourselves. We might have had one little unit of, like, you know, signs of burnout, but nothing concrete, no real skills. Wow.
Jen:Well, you know, good on you for having the courage to step out too because that takes a lot of courage to move away from a predictable career and and do something different as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's been a incredible journey.
Jen:It's been
Abby Payne:a healing journey. I feel like entrepreneurship is a healing force in itself because it makes you work through things. So it's been really great for me and my continued growth to have my business and the results I see with my clients getting off of their screens, not only getting off their screens, but learning how to regulate their stress has been the most rewarding thing I've ever done. I love that. So let's talk about the tech.
Abby Payne:Yeah.
Jen:So tell me how are these platforms, social media platforms in particular, designed to keep us engaged? What effects does that have on our culture, our behavior, our choices, our bodies? Tell me about just that background and and give us a little bit of education on that.
Abby Payne:Yeah. I'm gonna assume that people don't know how Instagram and Facebook make their money. I think a lot of people are growing more aware of how the algorithms work, but how Facebook, Instagram, TikTok make money is through advertising. So they there's a kind of saying that I use in my program that if you are not paying for the product, you are the product. It is free.
Abby Payne:We don't have to pay for these platforms. So that should clue you into something. How are these companies making money? So they get it through advertising and they went public several years back. I don't even know when exactly it went public, probably over a decade.
Abby Payne:And shareholders, they want to increase the price of Meta and Instagram and Facebook for shareholders. So how are they gonna do that? Get people to stay on there longer, get them to have emotional intensity to things, hijack their psychology and their reward pathways, make things addictive, and pedal more advertising in front of us. And they know exactly what they're doing. They are very aware that teens struggle with body image, that anxiety and depression rates have risen for teens.
Abby Payne:They're very aware, but they continue to try and make content that is more and more addictive. So they really hijack our brain psychology, our dopamine pathways, our entire reward system in our brain in order to make money.
Jen:Yeah. I know there's been a lot of more of that in the news, and I think there's been a couple good books that have come out too in the last few years about that. So people are getting becoming more aware. But yet, to your point, because it's so addictive, it's like we know this, but yet we still do it. Right?
Jen:Like, we all struggle. Sometimes me as well. Like, I'm helping my clients, but also in my own sense, preaching to myself and reminding myself about the the downstream effects of that, the negative cycle that you can get into, and also how that just disrupts your health, your sleep, your nervous system, all those things. But it can be hard to to know something, but then to put it into action.
Abby Payne:Oh, absolutely. Yes. And the whole reason that I created my digital detox program was for myself because I was struggling and I didn't know how to get out. And I read, you know, dopamine nation. I read the books about it, but I did struggle to apply it because it is addictive.
Abby Payne:And so that was what my whole program was about just for myself. How do I do this in a way that requires very little willpower? Because if you're in a true dopamine dependence with either alcohol, pornography, food, social media, when you've really developed that dopamine dependence habit loop in your brain, willpower isn't a strategy. And a lot of willpower only approaches are out there when it comes to reducing screen time. So a lot of people are told is just scroll less, just plug it in somewhere else at night.
Abby Payne:And for me, none of that worked. I would go and pick it up in the morning and bring it back to bed with me and scroll, and it just wasn't working. I thought there was something wrong with me. So the more I realized that willpower isn't a strategy and learned other ways, I really started to see results and release the shame around my screen addiction.
Jen:Okay. Can we go there now for just a minute? Thanks that you've teased that. Like, so if it's not willpower, then what does work?
Abby Payne:Yes. What I have seen work is automated systems, really to use tech to fight tech. That's what I've seen to be the most effective. These are blocking apps. They are things like putting your phone in grayscale automatically at night so that it's not twenty four seven, but goes on on its own at 8PM.
Abby Payne:But really blocking apps have been huge for me and my clients. I still use my blocking app. I will probably never not have it because it just makes it so much easier to keep your highest self in the driver's seat. So not all blocking apps are created equal. The built in screen time limits on your phone is useless.
Abby Payne:They're useless. You can just breeze right past them. Some blocking apps don't allow you to customize a certain schedule. Like, it needs to be very customizable, and it needs to be cheap proof. You can't shouldn't be able to get into your settings and then just change them.
Abby Payne:You should have to have some friction. So the screen the app that I recommend is called ScreenZen for your listeners. It is a free app. It's very similar to Opal. If anyone's gotten those ads on their Instagram for Opal, ScreenZen is similar, but it's free.
Abby Payne:Opal, you have to pay for. And within ScreenZen, you can set, like, a no scroll schedule at night. You can set limits throughout the day. And I have all kinds of information on how to set it up, I think, so that it works the best. It really takes the willpower element out of it.
Jen:I love that. What are your thoughts about using a blocking app versus some people have adopted getting a second phone like a dumb phone and using that during those times of day where they don't want to have access to all those apps? So any pros and cons to that approach versus the blocking?
Abby Payne:I think that that can work, you know, if someone wants to get a second phone. It depends on how deep you are. I think into the quote unquote screen addiction, the DSM doesn't, you know, categorize screen addiction as a thing, but many experts who study this have no problem saying that it is an addiction. It depends on how deep you are into it. If you're someone who's spending five plus hours doing passive screen time, not on meetings, not in Slack messaging team members, scrolling, watching videos.
Abby Payne:If you have multiple hours a day, you're losing to that. Having two phones, it can be just easy to pull out the other one and just watch, you know, and not have that willpower element. Now what I do on my phone is I have a dumb phone set up. So if anyone who's out there isn't familiar, a dumb phone is a phone that you can buy that doesn't have any kind of Internet browser, no social media, like built into the software. It's incompatible.
Abby Payne:You can't download Chrome or Safari. It just won't work. I was about to get one of those. They're like $400. I was like, well, but, you know, what if I don't like it?
Abby Payne:What if that's like a little too much? Or what if I need to check something like that's just a big commitment? And I was able to find a software. It's called a minimal phone launcher. It is an app that you download on your phone and it turns your phone into a dumb phone.
Jen:Minimal phone launcher? Minimalist phone launcher.
Abby Payne:So I don't know if you can see, but this is what my phone looks like. This is my home screen. There is no color. Wow. There are no icons.
Abby Payne:There are no pictures. It's just a list of words, messages, phone, mail, Spotify. I have no Internet browser on my phone. I have no social media. I do everything on my laptop related to that for that separation.
Jen:I like that. Okay. Well, let's then rewind for just a minute. We're gonna come back to that. What are signs that someone's phone use has become addictive and has crossed the line between what would be maybe typical or healthy if there is such a maybe healthy definition?
Jen:When would it become in that category of addictive or it's become dysregulated or however you want to term that? How do we know if we're listening that that is us and that we need to do something?
Abby Payne:Mhmm. It's a really great question. And I would say it can be tricky sometimes to know. Similar to not getting eight hours of sleep or having two beers every night, you might not realize how much it is impacting you until you stop. Until you prioritize sleep and cut out alcohol and feel incredible and your energy's back and your brain fog is gone, you didn't know how much it was impacting you.
Abby Payne:And I feel that is the same with screens. So many people think that they don't have a problem or that it's not impacting them. But when I challenge them to do a week of a pure digital detox fast, they come back less anxious, sleeping through the night, brain fog is gone, more regulated, and their creativity comes back. And they always say, I had no idea how much this was really impacting me. So there are the people who I think know that they are really struggling.
Abby Payne:And you can find them on Reddit saying I'm spending, you know, ten hours on my screen. I have no life. I have no friends. They are pretty aware that they are very hooked to their screens. But for the most of us, I would say that if you go into your screen time report on your phone and you are above four hours a day on your phone, can depend on what you do for work.
Abby Payne:But if you look in there and it breaks it down and it's Instagram, YouTube, Safari, ChatGPT, things like that that are more passive, that I would start to think about doing even a short detox because that will help you know. Take a week off and delete Instagram. Delete all those things. If you feel better after a week, then you know that that was having an impact.
Jen:Do you think there's a healthy would you put, like, a healthy number on how long would be appropriate or non a time limit that you can watch, listen, scroll that wouldn't negatively impact your well-being or brain? Is there a number? Because I know people are gonna ask me that. Like, is there then where's is there a sweet spot where you could do that and not have the consequence?
Abby Payne:Well, it's interesting. In terms of research, they've studied this for children. Mhmm. They have various you know, they have guidelines of screen time for children. When it comes to adults, what they found is more than four hours a day of passive screen time does increase your risk for stroke, heart disease, and Alzheimer's.
Abby Payne:And I would even say I mean, me personally, people I work with and what I see in my program, thirty minutes a day of scrolling, I feel like is no more than that. True passive scrolling. Because I get it. Like, you've had a stressful day. You're on your lunch break, and you're just like, I wanna pull up Instagram and go to Reels and just disappear from my life for a few minutes.
Abby Payne:That few minutes often turns into forty five. And then that turns into twice or three times a day. And that's where I think we can get into a problem. So like, before I deleted Instagram from my phone and those things, I started with a taper. I would give myself two fifteen minute openings of Instagram a day and, you know, weaning myself down because cold turkey can be kind of intense and a little bit too much on the nervous system all at once.
Abby Payne:But, yeah, thirty minutes, I think, of true scrolling would be what I would aim for.
Jen:I agree with that. I feel like four hours is a really high threshold, and most people start to have some sort of negative impact, I think, around thirty minutes to an hour for sure. Yep. And I don't Yeah. Yeah.
Jen:I think that you're kinda crossing into that zone.
Abby Payne:Yes. And the four hours includes TV. It includes all form when they study it. Stanford has studied this, all forms of passive mindless screen time. So a movie at night plus an hour and a half of scrolling, that's you know, you're almost hitting four hours.
Jen:Right. Do you put them on the same plane, screen usage as far as, like, phone and social media versus TV? Do you think there's a difference in impact there?
Abby Payne:I feel like there is a bit of a difference really between long form and short form content. Because short form content, those one minute reels, they really degrade your attention span and your dopamine receptors because it's always something new. Your attention is having to scatter to something else every thirty seconds, every three seconds if you're really scrolling. That can really fatigue your attention center, make it harder to focus versus, you know, a two hour movie where you're following the same storyline and the same characters. It's more of a long form content.
Abby Payne:I think it's a little less damaging, but it really depends on what people's goals are too. If their goals are to read more books and get involved in their community or nature or have more friends, then TV is maybe gonna impact that as well and video games. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Jen:And I'm thinking about kids as a mom. I I think there is a difference there. You know, I think there's negative impact to both TV, passive watching, and screens, but we know there's even, I think, more research now on the negative impact of using, an iPad and, like, that constant sensory input and overstimulation, which sometimes you think about, like, the old school TV that maybe we watched growing up, it wasn't as stimulating, and it was longer and slower versus, like, this action packed, like quick changes and colors and sensory, all of that, right, which I think has more of a negative impact on the brain from what I've kind of seen. Do you think that's the case?
Abby Payne:Yeah. I agree. And there's a really incredible recently released podcast called Left to Their Own Devices. And it's produced by the Toronto Star. It's one of those oh, how do you say?
Abby Payne:It's an investigative journalism look at screen time and she speaks with amazing experts and really gets the data on how screens are affecting children in particular. So left to their own devices. If anyone's curious about more, that is a great podcast to get started and really learn more about how it's impacting kids and teenagers.
Jen:That's a great recommendation. I'm on team. Like, don't give the kid a phone until, like, you absolutely necessarily have to. I know there's so many other options today. Even seen a cool ad for something called Tin Can, if you've heard of that.
Jen:But it's like a like a old school landline that you can use on Wi Fi in your home. And so your your kiddo could have their little Tin Can and it has pre programmed numbers that you as a parent decide on. So whether that's grandma or a friend, and other friends with tin can can just call each other for free. But I think that's, like, a beautiful transition when your kid's old enough to want to call friends to give them success and that independence without having to give them the screen and access to everything else. Yeah.
Jen:I'm on team like, delay, delay, delay because we just know all the negative impacts on the brain. And I always tell parents, like, once you give it, it's really hard to you can't take it back. It's really hard to take. Can't work. Oh, yeah.
Jen:Yeah. And most when I used to work in a psychiatric hospital with teens, there was probably, like, half of the family sessions talked about social media. Like, that was the thing we were warring over. The family was warring over with their teen was phone usage, screen usage, and this was, like, this is now, what, ten years ago. Oh, that's So I can only imagine today with all the additional temptations we have on there.
Jen:Oh, yeah. I can definitely only imagine.
Abby Payne:I mean, I am very inspired by my nephew. His name is Elliot, and he hasn't had a phone yet. He is 16, almost 17. He had a phone for a little while, but his parents took it away. So it's very short amount of his of time in his life, and he is the most insightful, bookish, like he the amount of books that he reads, he looks you in the eye when he talks to you.
Abby Payne:You can just tell talking to him that his brain has had the chance to develop without a screen compared to so many of his peers that I talk to or just other teenagers who are on their phones a lot. I can tell that those centers in his brain around empathy and social recognition, attention span, learning, they're so strong. And, you know, he's had a really hard time with his parents because, you know, you kinda I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this, but I think you might have to be willing to be a little bit hated by your teens. Yep. And hold the line and not get them a phone because for a long time there, he was just like, my parents, they won't give me a phone and, you know, really angry about it.
Abby Payne:I wonder what he's feeling about it now that he's a little bit older, but I think that parents need to be willing to be the bad guy here.
Jen:I agree. And a lot of parents, it's hard to do that. It really, really is, especially when kids can be so persistent. Right? And they can kinda beat you down.
Jen:So it is so hard. And no one wants their kid to feel like they're the outsider or they're not included because often it's that they feel excluded and parents feel like empathy. Right? That hurts so bad. You remember what it's like to probably be excluded as a teen or preteen, and you're like, you don't want your kid to go through.
Jen:But I've seen my my son is only five or almost five, so he's really little. So we're not even there yet. I'm thinking about it. But friends of mine who have had success with this too in delaying, typically, well, one, they have very strict boundaries. Right?
Jen:It's just it's like a nonnegotiable thing, and so that helps of, like, this is what it is and just holding the line. But, also, if you can be lucky enough to find a community who also has that same value and holds that boundary, your kid won't feel as excluded because they might have three, four, ten, fifteen friends who also don't have phones. Maybe it's awesome. A dumb phone or something else. Maybe they are able at some point to text or whatever, but they are a landline.
Jen:A lot of I know some families have landlines for their teens. Yeah. But then they have their group, you know, where they don't feel that exclusion. So if you can align with other parents, maybe there's like a pact some parents can make with other parents at school. Say, hey.
Jen:We wanna do this. Like, will you join in on this? And can we all agree to, like, not give give give our kids a phone till they're 16, 17, whatever it is. Amazing. But then allow a way to communicate, have them connect still.
Jen:I think that would be the ideal situation.
Abby Payne:Oh, that would be ideal. And, you know, there's so much talk around, you know, should this become legislative? What we're learning and what we're discovering about the impact on mental health for teens and the developing brain. You know, should this have some restrictions? Do you not be able to have a smartphone until you're 15 or 14, like, which I feel like 14 is even still like, you're so young.
Abby Payne:Like, no. That's just that's the best part of life. You're listening to music and you're with your friends and like, don't take that and replace it with a screen. But, yeah, not being excluded. That would be the hardest thing.
Jen:Yeah. Yeah. Do you typically work more so with adults or have you worked with adults also having the struggle with their kids? Like, you know, doing it in tandem or parallel. Yeah.
Abby Payne:I've never done it in tandem. I do get asked all the time if I would work with teenagers because so many parents say, like, they've heard it from me. They've heard it from me so much. They need to hear it from someone else. But I'm more of an adult person.
Abby Payne:I like working with adults. And what I kind of say to that is I like to equip the elders. Because I worked with one woman. She had teenage kids, and they were on their screens a lot, and she'd been on them about it a lot. So then she decided to do my digital detox program for herself and to learn more about strategies.
Abby Payne:And without even saying anything to her kids, they noticed she was way more present. She wasn't as stressed. Her energy wasn't so fragile and high, and they asked her what she was doing differently on her phone. They noticed she wasn't on her phone as much. So it organically came up because she was modeling the behavior.
Abby Payne:So that's kind of what I say when I work with parents is let's work on your phone use, your state of presence, your energetic frequency that your kids are feeling in your presence. And they may come to you and ask. So he actually her teenage son actually asked her, will you show me how to set up this blocking app on my phone? And she was able to show him because she had been able to master it herself. I think that's what we need to see with parents in our community is equipped adults to know the actual tools to help teens and young adults reduce their screen time.
Jen:That's so powerful. I love that story because I agree. I think it comes top down, and parents need to model that. And typically too, like, all of us, you know, me included, have been guilty of overusing our phones, especially in front of our kids and not realizing how that takes us out of the moment and also how that's modeling the behavior. So when I worked with parents in the past too, like, they wanna sell these boundaries on their kids.
Jen:And son's a teen who's they're always very wise and Oh, yeah. Perceptive and observer you know, observing everything. They're like, but mom and dad get to bring their phone into the room. Why don't I get to bring my phone into my room? Like, you're right.
Jen:Like, yeah. Truly, this would be better for everyone if we all agree that we're not gonna bring our phones into our rooms or they just stay downstairs, whatever the boundary is. Guarantee to start with that and be aware of their usage, and that gives you more leverage in setting limits. Does.
Abby Payne:Yeah. Yeah. It does because they're watching. Yes. And they can really feel your energy.
Abby Payne:They can feel your state of presence or scatteredness if you're really with them or not. You know, how many times I see people playing soccer and the kids are doing whatever and I look in the bleachers and all the parents are looking at their phones. And I just can imagine being a kid and looking at the bleachers and your mom or dad is staring at their phone, like, I noticed? Am I seen? Like, they pick these things up to see your attentive face and your eyes on them.
Abby Payne:It's just amazing what that does for the developing, you know, psyche and self esteem, you know, in girls and boys, but that I matter and someone's watching and paying attention to me. Right.
Jen:And that the thing in front of you is is the most important thing, more important than the thing you're looking at or the person you're talking to on the screen. And that's the message that we're sending inadvertently. And I see this all with, like, a lot of grace and compassion and also realization, like, I struggle with this too at times. I think it's just that awareness and starting with that and setting those gentle limits. And like you said, it doesn't have to be extreme.
Jen:You don't doesn't mean you have to throw out your smartphone, but could you set maybe a family rule around when you're gonna use phones, when you're not, and when you're talking to someone, when especially when you're at dinner or coffee, when you're eating a meal, phone screens go away. Like, in our house, we don't have phones on the table. We don't have the TV on. Like, we don't do meals with TV on. Anything like that.
Jen:Always room for improvement. Right? But, like, in general, just setting some clear family guidelines and Yeah. With those.
Abby Payne:And those are so strong. Like, I think I we would be surprised how many families don't do that. They don't have a no phones at the table rule. They don't, you know, maybe have that no phones at night and really give their kids free rein, I think that it's getting better. Because as we learn more, that parents are realizing like, oh, you know, we should have boundaries.
Abby Payne:And they're realizing it early, you know, when their kids are four, five, six. Whereas generations before, I mean, you just kinda gave it to them and Yeah. Let them have it. Yeah. We didn't We're learning.
Abby Payne:We're learning. We're learning the impact just like we did with other, you know, things that we've put limits on as a society that sometimes you can have too much of a good thing and the developing brain isn't ready.
Jen:Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more for a minute about you mentioned, like, how it takes you out of the moment and you can be more distracted and actually, I think more anxious because your attention is shifting, and we know that we actually don't multitask. Like, our brain really can't do that. Takes a lot of energy. So could we talk more about these subtle cues that may be the distress you're feeling, the thing you're struggling with might be connected to your screen usage?
Jen:Because think I there's a lot of people who maybe wouldn't relate to using it for four hours or, like, having this awareness, like, I'm addicted to this, but yet they're feeling dysregulated or not present or anxious or whatever. What would be those signs that that would be like a cue that maybe it's connected to screen usage?
Abby Payne:Yeah. That's a great question. The thing that comes to mind is the classic habit loop. For anyone who might not be familiar, we have, you know, this trigger, a response, a craving, a response, and a reward. And these triggers make us remember to pull out our phone.
Abby Payne:These can be notifications which are built into the app like, oh, you got a thing on Instagram. You should check Instagram. But they can also be emotional triggers. So when you feel a little bit overwhelmed and you pull out your phone and scroll, when you feel a little bit lonely and you pull out your phone and scroll, if you start to notice that you are using your phone as a way to escape from big feelings that you don't wanna feel or that maybe you've never been taught how to feel, then that is eroding our emotional resilience. And I see that as a key thing with a lot of my people is it's not just that they're scrolling, it's that they're avoiding.
Abby Payne:They're avoiding hard conversations with a partner, with a friend, confrontation, avoiding it all with their phones. And it can be subtle and hard to notice, which is, you know, really I do encourage people even a twenty four hour fast from social media and things like that. And it will reveal to you why you scroll and when you scroll, when you're overwhelmed, when you're feeling those big feelings, it's hard to sit with yourself. It's hard to sit with those feelings. It really is.
Abby Payne:I really struggled to get off of my screens. And I had to do it slow and steady, not all at once because I didn't have any coping skills. So I think that's another thing too is people might realize like, oh, if I don't have my phone and I'm feeling this big feeling, I don't know what to do. And I've seen people when they stopped scrolling as much, their eating disorder came back or other addictions, old addictions started to resurface because the it's not that you are scrolling too much. A lot of times, it's that you don't know how to regulate your nervous system.
Abby Payne:Those skills need to be developed.
Jen:Yeah. I agree with that. I saw something a little bit while back. I won't say what I kinda saw it in on social media, ironically, talking about that. But a pretty prominent person in, like, the health space therapist mentioned something like, let's have space and grace for the fact that that might be a way of actually regulating for someone who's, like, scrolling a lot.
Jen:Mhmm. You think about that? Because I hear that all the time. I had tension with that because I I I don't know if I agree with that of, like, yeah. I mean, yes, we have to have grace that it's processed, and we can't do it all at once, and we need a replacement behavior or else we'll fall back to maladaptive coping.
Jen:But then it kind of was creating permission as well, like, you have unresolved trauma, whatever it is, that, like, this is a tool you can use for regulation. I think there could be some room just thinking about, like, some psychology of, like, depending on level of crisis. Obviously, if that's gonna keep you safe. Okay. Right?
Jen:Yeah. That's gonna be a better alternative to self harm or whatever it is or maybe bingeing, purging. Mhmm. What about what do you think about that as far as like a philosophy or that idea?
Abby Payne:I have heard that so many times. I get asked that question a lot, like, isn't there some level of itself regulation? And I feel like that can be a bit of a cop out to teaching true regulation skills. Now if someone is working with a therapist and they're growing those skills, like, that is great. So many people don't have that resource or they're not working
Jen:with a
Abby Payne:therapist. But to just say that it's a self regulation tool is I mean, you could say that about anything. You could say that about your your two beers every night. You could say that about so many things that release dopamine. Say that about pornography, you know, it helps to regulate.
Abby Payne:What I would like to see is truly more digital recovery programs, which is what I've made my program to be. So in my group, my program over the eight weeks, we're slowly tapering down screen time and slowly building up coping skills and education on nervous system and the stress response and building that self awareness because you really can't have one without the other. I don't think you can just take away screen time. You have to teach people how to regulate their nervous system. So to just say, like, oh, it's self regulatory.
Abby Payne:And I also think people don't realize how harmful it really is. More and more research again is coming out to self tell us how harmful it really is, how it degrades society and communities and, you know, sense of connection. But, yeah, I think that that is kind of a cop out.
Jen:Yeah. I think it's a could be a survival strategy very short term, but that should not be where it ends and that should not be the main thing you use to regulate. And it shouldn't really be on, I think, the table with regulation. Mhmm. It just might be a sign of just how many more skills you need and just a sign.
Jen:It's time to reach out for help and support if that's your only way of falling asleep, which I've heard before. It's like, the only way I can fall asleep is by scrolling or watching TV. It's like, well, we haven't maybe tried some other things. I bet you we can find you something else that has those negative effects but allow you the self soothing that you're trying to access.
Abby Payne:Mhmm. Yeah. There's a really great the book Dopamine Nation by Doctor. Anna Lemke is really good. And she is on interviewed on several podcasts, but she's on the Hidden Brain podcast, which is a really great episode with her.
Abby Payne:She equates all dopamine with being, you know, dopamine releasing behaviors and substances as being on a continuum. But she was saying that sometimes you're medicating your own withdrawal, that this is the only thing that helps. This is the only thing that that makes me not feel anxious. When really you've created such an association with it that your brain becomes dependent on scrolling in order to feel balanced. And then when you try and take that away, your anxiety goes up, so then you pull out your phone.
Abby Payne:But if you were to give yourself a period of abstinence, you would start to self regulate again and your dopamine pathways would chill back out and find their own balance. I think more and more people, their screen time isn't what's helping. Even though it's how it feels. You're medicating your withdrawal from not having had a screen in front of you for the last two hours.
Jen:Yeah. I think we're also just so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable too in our culture, and we don't even like feeling bored versus that was kinda like a hallmark of, like, my childhood at times is the boredom. Yes. So many clients who just can't tolerate the boredom or the silence or the quiet or the sitting aloneness of that. Yeah.
Jen:And this we did not feel like you said, it's another numbing out tool to not to deal with that. But if we can face that discomfort, that's that's half the battle is just being willing to be uncomfortable and realizing, I don't like this, but I can tolerate this. Like, it's true. It can be really uncomfortable and hard, and I can survive it and do it and get through that hump to get back to regulation like you talked about.
Abby Payne:And, you know, meditation is kind of a key pillar in my program as well because that basically describes meditation in so many ways as sitting in silence and just being with yourself and being with the discomfort for ten minutes, you know, for five minutes and building up that strength. And also, like, boredom is so powerful. It's where creativity sparks and new ideas. Like, from nothing comes something. There has to be nothing first.
Abby Payne:And we numb that because it is uncomfortable. And I was really uncomfortable after being a COVID ICU nurse and being on my phone all the time. Like you were saying, it depends on your crisis level. I was in a crisis at that point, and I didn't know I needed help because everyone around me was in crisis. And it just was seemed as normal.
Abby Payne:We're all struggling. We all do this. This is what we all do on our days off. We drink beer and we watch TV and we eat pizza. And it just felt normal.
Abby Payne:Like, I didn't realize that I was doing something harmful to myself. But it did help. Right? It helped at the time until it didn't. Until it actually became it's to really tip the scales.
Abby Payne:I'm past the four hours a day. I'm always on here. And another hallmark for me was I'm saying no to other things. My husband wants to go on a walk with me, but I'm in the middle of my show. Or I'm being invited by a friend to go get coffee, but I wanna finish this movie.
Abby Payne:Or I just would rather scroll on my phone. I was really starting to say no to engaging with the world. And I was like, I have this is more this has gotten to be kind of a problem. But it did help me get through that part because I had no other support.
Jen:I think it's so striking to me that in our conversation, it just parallels so closely with other addictive behaviors and more widely accepted and known ones like alcohol, eating disorders, gambling, pornography, shopping, what whatever it is. It's it's the same pathway. Right? And I just think that was starting to become more prominent and understood that this is at that same level. But I think for so long, it wasn't.
Jen:It was seen as like, we all do it. It's fine. And now it's like, no. This is actually coming to a place where maybe it'll actually be in the DSM. Like, perhaps it will be.
Jen:Right? Like I don't think it's far off. I don't think so either. I think it's we're close. It's it's Mhmm.
Jen:There, especially as we move more towards more tech usage as embedded in our life, right, where you can't do very much without using your phone and tech. So I think Yeah. We're there. It's like, it's just as important as, like you said, the person is drinking beer every night to cope or fall asleep. Like, it's at the same level physiologically as far as what it's doing.
Abby Payne:Mhmm. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. And I would love to see more people just experience the world outside their screen because when you really start to reduce your screen time, I mean, you start to see the world a little bit differently.
Abby Payne:When you put your phone in black and white, colors in the real world become more vibrant. And that's something I hear a lot from my clients is they see the green of the trees and the grass like they did when they were a kid. Because when you're always on your phone and it's such bright intense colors, it makes the rest of the world really seem more more dull. When you put it on black and white, it can really change how you see the world around you. It's pretty amazing.
Abby Payne:I'd love to see more people get in touch with the real physical world and the beauty around us.
Jen:I like that. So final question for you as we wrap up. Mhmm. Give us some more simple tips, habits, things we can do to start to reduce that level of overuse and overstimulation. Because you mentioned, like, you know, some blocking apps, but anything else, other apps, tools, tips, routines that you recommend?
Abby Payne:The best place that I start people is, which I've already mentioned it, is a scheduled gray out of your phone. Rather than it be black and white twenty four seven. I even that can be too much, right, when you're getting started. I'm a big fan of a taper. You know?
Abby Payne:If you have an iPhone, you can go to your shortcuts and you can automate your phone to go black and white at 8PM back to color at 8AM. And it signals to your brain, oh, it's time to wind down. My phone just went into black and white. I it's already 8PM. Okay.
Abby Payne:And it makes it less addictive because it reduces the dopamine response in your brain because there's no color. It makes it less satisfying because it's just not as fun to look at, and it helps you get back in touch with your goals, to sleep better, to do your laundry that night, like, what else could I do? This is my signal to get ready to unwind. If anybody wants to be guided through that process step by step, I have a free master class that will show you I do an actual demo on how to set that up on your phone. It's at nurseabbyllc.com/digital-detox.
Jen:Love that. Yeah. So if people wanna find out more, because you said your website is there, but also, again, kind of ironic because we're talking about social media. But if they wanted to check you out, where do they find you online?
Abby Payne:They can find me on my Substack. So I
Jen:have
Abby Payne:a publication called Moss on the Rocks. It's mossontherocks.substack.com, and I do a weekly newsletter all about engaging with the more slow living, just where moss grows, and engaging with nature. I share stories and education all on there. And it can be delivered straight to your inbox. So you sign up and it's a newsletter or you can use the Substack app.
Jen:Okay. I love that. So Substack and website, can they find you on social?
Abby Payne:I have a social. I will post upcoming newsletters for my Substack on there. Like, oh, this week's edition is this. And that's all you'll see, so you can follow along there. But Substack be the get to the source.
Jen:I love it.
Abby Payne:If you did wanna look at screen free queen, my Instagram.
Jen:I just appreciate that consistency. You know, that's what I would expect of you that wouldn't be fully using Instagram. You would use it to direct people to another way of consuming that is more in line with your values. So Yeah. I love that.
Jen:I'm a huge fan of Substack too, so I'm gonna check you out because I love it.
Abby Payne:It's been great. It's been a great alternative, and it's been challenging to not use social media for my business. Cause every advisor, business person will tell you like this is free marketing. You know, you can't it's just basically your storefront these days. If you have an online business, not a brick and mortar, this is your storefront.
Abby Payne:And I've really struggled with how to show up online in a way that stayed in alignment with my values. So stub Substack has been a godsend there to give me an outlet and a storefront that doesn't depend on short form content and videos and doesn't pay Meta or Instagram to do what they're doing, which I think is pretty unethical once you dig into Meta and stuff there. So, yeah, you can find me on Substack.
Jen:Love that. Well, thank you, Abby, for giving us your time today and to educating us. I've learned so much. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your story, and I know it's gonna help a lot of people, parents, kids, single folks, whoever. We all can benefit from this info.
Jen:So thank you again, and guys, we will see you in a couple weeks at our next episode. Thanks for joining us on the Counter Culture Health podcast. To support this show, please rate, review, and share with your friends and family. If you wanna be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred podcast player. You can find me, Jen, at awaken.holistic.health and at awakeningholistichealth.com.
Intro:And me, Caitlin, at Caitlin Read Wellness and caitlinreadwellness.com. The content of the show is for educational and informational purposes only. As always, talk to your doctor and health team. See you next time.