Safe Travels Pod

Fred Bunch is the Chief of Resources at Great Sand Dunes National Park & Preserve. Fred is a native of Alamosa, Colorado, and has been working at Great Sand Dunes for nearly 40 years. 

Fred has a very important role in the park, tasked with protecting and preserving the park's natural and cultural resources. In this podcast, we chat about what those resources are and what it means to Fred to be such a critical piece in protecting such a special area and park. 

Fred Bunch has such a wonderful, humorous personality. I feel very grateful to have spent time with him on the podcast! 
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Creators and Guests

Host
Joey Liberatore

What is Safe Travels Pod?

Hear from the folks that live, breathe and know the national parks best.

All episodes, including vlogs, are available on our YouTube channel @safetravelspod.
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Safe Travels is a media network that sits down with park rangers to discuss unique areas of each park. The goal of each episode is to help educate current and future visitors on ways to stay safe and keep the park healthy.

Speaker 1:

Hi everyone. Thanks for checking out the Safe Travels Podcast. My name is Joey. We are at Great Sand Dunes National Park And Preserve and today we sat down with the chief of resources Fred Bunch. Fred and I chatted all about the natural and cultural resources here at the Great Sand Dunes.

Speaker 1:

Fred, it's an honor to be able to sit down and chat with you. You've been here for a very long time at this park. But I first wanna start with who you are, where you're from, how you got into the outdoors.

Speaker 2:

Well, you, Joey. I appreciate this opportunity to talk about the park and my name is Fred Bunch. I'm the chief of resources here at Great Sand Dunes. I've been in this position for over thirty seven years. And but I'm originally from Alamosa.

Speaker 2:

Born in Alamosa. Went to seek my fortune. Ended up at the sand dunes. Now I I it's a long route to get here. I started in Great Basin in Nevada, and then I went to Dinosaur, Mesa Verde, Zion, Klondike Goldrush, Yellowstone, Rocky Mountain.

Speaker 2:

So this is my eighth park, but it's a it's an incredible resource. And it's just been really exciting to be here. There's been a lot of changes in in the time I was here when I started Joey. This was a monument and it was a small 38,000 acre reserve of monument for the dunes. And then in February, they expanded and tripled the size, 140,000 acres that includes the dunes and then all the areas above them and downstream from them too.

Speaker 2:

So it it, you know, it was a push to try to protect all the resources.

Speaker 1:

When you saw that process taking place to expand the park, make it a national park and preserve, how how did that make you feel since you have been here before that existed and now you've seen more land come under more protection. Is that is there an emotional side to to that for you to see this place being protected like it is?

Speaker 2:

Oh absolutely, Joey. Because this is a place that was under a threat that that of x water export out of this basin that got a movement started to create the park and preserve. And it was largely driven to protect the whole system. You know, a lot of times when in this business we don't look at upstream or upwind. And so to protect the whole system, to create a more of a destination and to prevent further water development.

Speaker 1:

Since you're from Alamosa, you've been to eight parks in totality. But coming to this area, did it feel like coming home full

Speaker 2:

circle? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a story about the San Luis Valley in, you know, thousands of years ago, there was a a lake here.

Speaker 2:

And around the lake, there are all these frogs. And then the lake breached and drained and so these frogs died, but their spirits are still here. And they they say that if you come to the valley, if you're born here, the frog spirit will get you and you could leave, but you'll end up coming back. So you'll be back. I'll

Speaker 1:

be thinking about that for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I know asking a park ranger their favorite landscape or favorite park that they've worked at or been to is like picking your favorite child.

Speaker 1:

But of the parks that you've worked at, is there a park that you think back to outside of Great Sand Dunes that, you know, you had a enjoyable experience at or, you know, just has a bunch of majesty to you?

Speaker 2:

Yes. And I'd have to say Dinosaur. I was a river patrol ranger there, so I'd float down the rivers and there the the canyons at Dinosaur are phenomenal. And so that's that's high on my list. But the sand dunes, you know, as the old say, you gotta dance with the one that brung you.

Speaker 2:

You know, these dunes are are just phenomenal.

Speaker 1:

And the frog spirits are making you say

Speaker 2:

that too. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

You have a very important role here at Great Sand Dunes National Park And Preserve. You are the chief of resources. What all does that entail?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It is it's involved. It's not directly tied to the visitor, but we inform the visitor and and Sierra and his his branch and the superintendent what it is is we need to understand what's going on. We need to understand what's going on in the physical environment. We need to go understand what's going on in the biological, and then we need to know what's going on in the in the cultural.

Speaker 2:

So through my branch, we do a lot of research and monitoring and things like that. We monitor air quality. We monitor the night sky. This is a dark night sky park. We monitor archaeological site conditions.

Speaker 2:

We we stock native fish in the creeks, and we work on dispersal of elk moving them across the landscape. We monitor and manage non native vegetation, Joey, you know, the the what they call weeds, things that don't belong in the park. And and kind of ours our setting is an interesting situation because we're downwind from a large agricultural valley. So what happens out there, the wind will carry it up here and and we have to kind of be mindful of what kind of plants are showing up.

Speaker 1:

That's really interesting because after speaking with Duane about fish here in the park, since the terminus of the creeks here are on the valley floor, there's no non native fish getting into those streams. But you're saying on the vegetation side there's plenty of non native plants entering this ecosystem.

Speaker 2:

Yes sir. Yeah. And and probably the biggest vector or mechanism for mode for getting here is the would be the wind. And and then also, you know, tires, seeds and tires, a horse manure and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1:

We've talked about this a couple of times with some folks from other parks, but how vital is it then for folks that come here, you know, Colorado National Parks and a lot of people do the tour around the state going to these parks, I'm currently doing it. How important is it to clean off your gear, clean off your shoes, if you're you're using the same vehicle, cleaning off that vehicle before entering this park?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That is important because that is a mechanism for the seeds to get in here. That's one of the things we require of contractors. You know, if they come in here and there there's gonna be a ground disturbance, then that's that's a a an avenue where non native plants can get a start.

Speaker 1:

So how large is that team of researchers underneath you that work with you and you work with them on on providing all this research so that you can make management decisions?

Speaker 2:

Well, the core team is is Duane, Andrew, Rhee, and then I have two biotechs. But we do, so much work with, universities and, Park Service programs. The inventory and monitoring program of the of the National Park Service based out of Fort Collins is critical to what we do by informing us of of landscape condition. We're we're in the landscape business, so we're we're shooting for desired habitat condition. So we want areas that are are behaving as naturally as possible.

Speaker 2:

And then we have a lot of research being conducted through academic institutions. Colorado State currently is doing a a study of the endemic insects on the dunes. And, you know, this is only found here at the Great San Jose Tiger Bill. This is the only place that it's found. And and so we're trying to see how it's doing and and what its what its range is currently.

Speaker 2:

We're also starting a project with Montana State and the USGS with a pica, the little lagomorph, the little rabbits that live at high elevation. We're we're trying to figure out their situation. They they may be really a great indicator and inform us about climate conditions.

Speaker 1:

That's fascinating. I I didn't wanna actually wanna ask you about the great sand dunes tiger beetle and what makes it so unique to this area and why it's able to exist in such an extreme landscape.

Speaker 2:

Oh, man. That's an an incredible creature, Joey, because it's it lives in a in a the dudes are a hostile environment. I mean, they sizzle in the summer. It's hot. And they freeze in the winter as they get sandblasted and and all that.

Speaker 2:

And so back many years ago, was a priest, a local priest in the in the community of San Luis. And when he wasn't doing his priest activities, duties, he was chasing insects. And he came out and he found this beetle. And this this this beetle is new to science. It no no one had ever described it or identified it.

Speaker 2:

And so if that's the case, then you get to name it. And and his name was father Bernard Roger, and he's from Spain. And and he was a Theotene father. And so he named this tiger beetle that occurs at the Great Sand Saint Louis tiger beetle Sinsidalia, the genus, a Theactina, after his order. And so that that's one of the things that we're trying to understand as managers is that since they only occur here, you would think, well, there it's a concern about them.

Speaker 2:

But the population is healthy and it's it's and it's holding its own really well. You know, it's it's what work can we do for it? It's in wilderness. It's in dunes. It's in the, you know, protected area.

Speaker 2:

And so but it's it's great that you when you see one of them you realize, wow and that's the only only only place this is found. And there's that's true I think there's five endemics. Depends the changes once in a while but but there's a robber fly and and another darkling beetle that is only found here at Great Sand Dunes.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. How does visitor recreation on the dunes affect an endemic species like that? Or is it such minimal, you know, surface area on the dunes that's being taken up by visitors that they're able to kinda disperse?

Speaker 2:

That's a great question, Joy, because it's the effect of visitors on the dunes probably not very high on the sand dune or the tiger beetles population. It's a diurnal bug. I mean, comes out in the middle of the day, you know, just crazy out on the dunes, and it's and it's a a predator. It gets its name not so much what it looks like, but more like how it acts. It eats smaller insects.

Speaker 2:

But the area that the visitors go, there is, you know you know, a certain place that maybe we don't find as many, but there's a lot of them found all around in that habitat and in the smaller mobile dunes on the Southwest of the park.

Speaker 1:

Are there any downstream effects of how visitors recreate on these dunes? Are there anything being affected or is the area that visitors in a stable environment?

Speaker 2:

It's it's it's very stable, know, and that's another good question because a lot of other dune fields have vegetation that anchor them and stuff. But there's not that much vegetation on the dunes that pedestrian use affects.

Speaker 1:

What about salamanders? Are there any salamanders out in the dunes or, you know, anything that are hunting these beetles?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. There's salamanders and birds would would do it too, but there are salamanders out on the dunes and in the creeks and lakes and and things, toads. You know, we we were doing some research and Andrew was way up on the dunes. One time we had the sand trap that was catching sand from all different directions. He pulled it out and there was a a toad under it.

Speaker 2:

But the salamanders around here go through this process called neotenic, where they can reproduce as a juvenile. And so that's one of the things that's documented with the tiger salamanders here.

Speaker 1:

Well, how is that documented? How are you able to to study and figure that out? Are you monitoring them in the natural landscape or are there populations that you would, you know, capture? I know there's there's bears in this environment and there's not much bear trapping that occurs here, but how would you monitor, you know, a creature that size?

Speaker 2:

On the salamanders, that that neotenic came from research.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And they they studied that because they there was a I think Colorado State did that where where they were looking at and saying that we don't see them a we see reproduction but we don't see adults. And and so that's the case there but we do a lot of inventories. One of the most helpful tools that we have in this business is inventories. And you have lists and you know who's here when and and what. And and and speaking of which on the amphibian side of things, we I found an old study from 1959 from out of state, the local university, and they documented rhonopipians, the leopard frogs.

Speaker 2:

And we went back to the place and they're not there now, but they have showed up in different areas. And so maybe they move around a little bit. But every year we go out and and do amphibian inventories, listening to calls, chorus frogs, great plains toads, these kind of things. And then also we do, as part of an air quality project, we do dragonfly monitoring. Wow.

Speaker 2:

And we're not catching the the actual flying phase of the of the insect, but the nymphs. And we we catch them in in the water and and then send them to a lab in Oregon because they're looking at bioaccumulation of mercury.

Speaker 1:

Similar research is happening in Saguaro National Park where they're using the the larvae from Dragonfly to understand water quality and air quality. Do you then work with other national parks and agencies to compare results and data on similar studies?

Speaker 2:

Yes, sir. And and that that one, Joey, is is a WAACAP, Western Airborne Contaminants Program, and that's looking at a lot of different national parks. They're looking at the the dragonfly.

Speaker 1:

How does the biodiversity in the park change in terms of what's moving around comparing the daytime versus the nighttime, especially when summer comes around and and heat starts to take over?

Speaker 2:

You know, they say mad dogs and Englishmen are only ones crazy to go out in the noonday sun, But at night, there's a lot of activity on the dunes. The kangaroo rat is out there and it has these collects seeds. Eats the rice grass seed and the blowout grass seed and has these internal pouches in his mouth so he can he can fill up as a rock like that and then he'll walk around and have a whole bunch of seeds inside of his mouth and it won't dry it out because he's not walking around with his mouth open. And so and then also it's incredible because it can jump 12 times its body length. Know, You it could jump probably over here to that pole.

Speaker 2:

And it has the ability to hear that we can't. It it can hear the the wing beat of an owl. Wow. Yeah. So so that's that's really active in the at night.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes you could see where kangaroo rats been screwing around and you see maybe an owl came down and and got it. And then coyotes out there at night and, you know, and and I we encourage people to go out there at night because this is a international dark sky park. Half the park is after dark. You have a right to starlight. And so it's a really great experience to go out and and see the the multitude of stars that are here.

Speaker 2:

I was out last night. It just you could see millions and millions of stars.

Speaker 1:

One of my favorite things in the parks is when you step outside at night and as the sun's going down you get these beautiful sunsets and the stars start to come out but then you hear that coyote howl Our old howl. It's like Yeah. It's such a such a great reminder of being out in nature and makes you feel connected to the landscape around you.

Speaker 2:

That's the experience that we want our visitors to have is is, you know, majority of our visitors come from urban areas and they don't go out at night or they if they go out at night they can't see any stars. And so, you know, our our night sky programs are very popular because of that. They it's in an environment that's safe and that they can experience the universe.

Speaker 1:

What role do bats play in this part?

Speaker 2:

Oh, huge. Yeah. They're huge. They're along the creeks and they they do amazing amount of feeding on insects, mosquitoes, things like that.

Speaker 1:

We are in Colorado and altitude is a common theme throughout this state. We're at roughly 8,000 feet right now and there's 14,000 foot peaks right behind you.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

What role does elevation play in the biodiversity of this area?

Speaker 2:

Excellent question. That is the key thing for for that different life zones. Because if we start off with the valley floor, we have the Sapka, and that's the mineralized lake deposits that are a lot of evaporates and water stands on a certain time of year and then evaporate off, so a lot of salts. And then as you go up in elevation, every time you go up in elevations, a couple things happen. One is you get more precipitation, but then also you get it cooler.

Speaker 2:

And so when you go from the Sapka, you go up a little bit and you get the the sand sheet. And the sand sheet is are dune wannabes. These are dunes that are are sand that is held down by by plants, by shrubs and and grasses. And then as you increase elevation, more precip, cooler, you get the the PJ. And I don't mean anything that has to do with bedtime, it's just a pinyon juniper and that's the that's the belt that's through here that is is in this zone.

Speaker 2:

It's a little higher here than it is in in New Mexico or so for some reason. And they don't seem to spread out into the valley floor because it's too cold down there in the winter. And then as you increase elevation then you get into the montane zone. You know, get your spruce fir forest, aspen, taller trees, and then you go up even further than that you get into the Krumholz and that's German for twisted wood. And that's the bristlecone and limber pines that are in that zone there.

Speaker 2:

And and again the growing season up there is really really short and so they have to get things done really quickly you know on this peak over here, there was a fire way back at high elevation and it I think it's still take taken as long for the the wood to decompose than it did to grow because it's you know, you only get fifty some days where it's of warm enough to grow. Then above that is the land above the trees and that's the the tundra. And that's the area where where it it tundra and the dunes are kind of similar if you if you will there. They are very hostile environment, high UV, very windy and so anything that grows there we call belly plants. You gotta lay on your belly to look at them and and see them there.

Speaker 1:

Do you have a favorite area of these life zones to be able to to research or spend time in?

Speaker 2:

Well they all complement each other. You know the snow happens most of it on the high elevation that creates the runoff. The runoff then goes down for the Montane and then through the Pinned Juniper and then out on the dunes. And the snow and the runoff play a really critical role in the dunes themselves and in the hydrology and geology of the dunes in the surge flow, in the recycling of sand around them. I I you know, since I worked at Rocky, I really like the the tundra.

Speaker 2:

And this Great Sand Dunes is one of the participant in this pro program. Let me see if I can get it right. It's the Global Observation Research Initiative in Alpine Environments. Gloria, g l 0 R I A, Gloria. Anyway, that that's an area where they monitor it's worldwide.

Speaker 2:

And some Austrian ecologists started it, And and they look at high elevation here. There's certain parameters. We have monitoring units up there to measure how much precip temperature, all these all these things. And look at that compare to New Mexico, to Alaska, to to New Zealand, the Alps, the the Himalayas, all the the all all across the world. These are these stations that report into that and really get a good grip grasp on what's happened climatically and, you know, just seeing trends worldwide.

Speaker 2:

So it's great that we can contribute to that body of knowledge.

Speaker 1:

That's fascinating. For somebody who knows the downstream effects of what happens in the tundra all the way down to the sand dunes as well as you do, how pivotal do you think it is for visitors to understand that dynamic when they're, you know, sandboarding on the dunes or exploring the dunes to be able to look up and see those mountains kind of off in the distance have a significant impact on the dunes that they're standing on?

Speaker 2:

Well I think that you know that's a that's another great question because everything's connected. Yeah. And you know what happens up there ends up down here. Now in a case here, back to air quality, you know, usually a lot of the air pollution occurs at lower elevations, but the effects are seen at high elevations. And they see that a rocky with nitrogen from being blown up to and it causes an algal bloom in the lakes and these these kind of issues.

Speaker 2:

So, you know, everything's connected.

Speaker 1:

There's a similarity in in wildlife here compared to other national parks, elk, pronghorn, black bears. Do these animals do they have any adaptations to survive in this environment that, you know, might not exist or habits that might not exist in other areas?

Speaker 2:

The amphibians have in the in in the valley here have a faster metamorphosis and and and so they and and lowered body size than their cousins on the Great Plains. You know, the Great Plains toads here are smaller than the ones on the on the other side and that that is due to you know, they gotta get this cold high elevation and they gotta get things done quickly. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

A previous podcast with Dwayne when we talked about fish, he talked about how fulfilled he felt seeing all these fish get restored in their native creeks. Do you feel a similar way when restoration projects occur in national parks?

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely, Joy. Absolutely. It's one of the most rewarding feelings to know because it's forever. If you restore a native fish, particularly in these situations where there's not a lot of of connected waters for non native fish to enter, then once you get it back into the real grand cutthroat trout, real grand sucker, real grand chub, you know, that's gonna be best thing you can do for that species.

Speaker 1:

Is there an ecological story that's occurring in this park or has occurred that stands out to you that, you know, you've you've been here thirty plus years, you've seen a lot of different stories with animals, with cultural resources, but specifically on, ecology, is there a story here that stands out to you?

Speaker 2:

Yes, sir. And we're doing research on it right now. We have this, grad student Katie Karasumari from University of Colorado who's just tenacious with her research and she's it's kind of built on other previous studies, but they found that the sunflowers that live on the dunes have far and away larger and hairier seeds than the same species off the dunes. And it's like, why is that? What is it about that that makes it an edge up?

Speaker 2:

And so that's what Katie was studying and she was also looking at the the kangaroo rats to see if they are dispersing the seeds and and creating that situation. But, you know, this you know, it's like one of those things where we observe that, but we can't really give you the answer. You know, there must be something that, you know, larger and hairier seed allows it to survive.

Speaker 1:

How does a plant survive in in a dune field?

Speaker 2:

They have to have their act together. And they survive there's two types of plants that live out on the dunes, the annuals and the perennials. And the annuals are like the sunflower. They they're they're start from seed every year. And there's seeds out there and if conditions are right and and usually a lot of it if you have a wet unit wet winter you'll have a pretty good sunflower bloom or if you have a a monsoonal moisture you can get some good sunflowers.

Speaker 2:

The other ones the right Indian rice grass, skurf pea, and blowout grass are are rooted plants and the scurf pea is a legume and it has nitrogen fixing nodules on its roots but it has this huge network of roots buried. So you have this huge root system that you're relying on and if part of that gets buried then the other part over here maybe can carry on the life function. But they you know they can on certain places can live out there which is kind of ironic in a way because they'll be out there stabilizing areas and then other plants will maybe have an opportunity to move out there to pioneer onto the dunes. But yeah. So the the plants that live out out there are kind of the first cut in a in a very tough environment.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. Because it's so tough and because everything you just described being intricate and specific, is it tough for non native plants then to make a home out in the dune fields? Well, we see we

Speaker 2:

see we're starting seeing weeds and stuff going out there, but not a lot. We were trying to control that.

Speaker 1:

We mentioned a little bit of vegetation that occurs in the park at different life zones that are in the area. But what's the most prominent, you know, vegetation that folks can see?

Speaker 2:

Another amazing plant to me is the brisicone pine that lives right at the tree limit and, and you know, just cold and windy and and live for thousands of years, you know. So that's that's phenomenal.

Speaker 1:

I was gonna ask about that. Isn't the bristlecone pine one of the the oldest living organisms in the world?

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah. And I think one of the things that they have in their favor is because they can live in such a tough environment, competition is lowered. You know, the best places where plants and animals live are the places where they all wanna live, and so there's competition. And that's that's one of the things that I don't know if you talked with Duane about integrated pest management, but that's one of the the keys to that is is you if you have plants or animals that you don't like, you you try to control them, but then try to crowd them out with plants and animals that you do like.

Speaker 1:

I don't know how common or uncommon this is in this park but how important is it when you're hiking on these trails and you're out and you're with these bristlecone pines and other trees to let them be. Like, name carving can be a thing in certain areas and, you know, human interactions with these trees. You know, the reality is when people come to parks, like to collect rocks. They like to leave their mark in some way in these parks. How important is it for people to resist doing something like that?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's very important. It's very important. And and I think I hopefully are are visiting public. And, you know, I really have high high amount of respect for the people that come here. I mean, because they they wanna be here.

Speaker 2:

And they just they they plan to come to the Great Sand Dunes all year long and and I wanna have a good time and so much so that we got a recently got a package in the mail and inside the package was just a rock, know, and like, what's this all about? And the letter said that they were here in the campground and they had a table cloth out and they used the rock to keep the table cloth down. And then when they're packing up, they just threw the rock in with their stuff and they realized, oh, well then they get caught in a traffic jam, the dog died, the the wife got started having dizzy spells and and it was just like, so they sent the rock back, you know, because it's like, you know, clear their karma. But but I think, know, people generally have a good appreciation and respect for the national parks. And I've even seen situations where, you know, one visitor would be do something wrong and another visitor will call them on it and, you know, just because it we're all in this together.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that you said that's important. Before we turn the camera on, we were talking. We were talking about, you know, what else in the world do we have if we lose this?

Speaker 1:

Mhmm. This is the most important thing as human beings that we have to and we have the responsibility to protect and preserve it because if we don't have places like this or, you know, earth to protect protect, what else do we have? That's right. I'm sure you feel, you know, really close to that sentiment.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, as we said, do nature bats last and this is you know, nature never disappoints either. It's just always amazing what's happening. I always like that quote I read of David Ben Gurion from Israel came to the American West.

Speaker 2:

And he looked out and says, only in America could they afford such deserts. And so it's like, you know, the beauty of the National Park Service is we we don't have to develop everything. We don't have to use all our resources. We can leave some for the future so that our children or grandchildren, their children can come and have a similar experience to what we're having right now.

Speaker 1:

Have you had interactions with visitors in in your time here where you can tell just this place completely reshapes someone's mindset of Yeah. Of experiencing the outdoors? Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And it's just, you know, they they maybe never been out and and camped or or seen the night sky or just experienced this the the quiet. This is another area that we've done some monitoring on is the the natural quiet. And this is one of the quietest national parks in the system. You know, I mean, you could hear the wind blowing or the crow or something like that, but it's it's a that's and that's a real expectation for wilderness.

Speaker 2:

You know, people come here and they expect it to be dark and quiet and have opportunities for solitude.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Makes us feel wild. This place particularly feels wild out here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

We talked a lot about natural resources which is a big part of your job, but another big part of your job is cultural resources. Resources Right. And the the human story that exists in this park. Is the cultural story difficult to tell with a landscape that's, you know, I went on a hike here and the wind's blowing and the sand's whipping up against your legs, the the environment's constantly shifting. Is the cultural story hard to uncover here in this park because it's changing?

Speaker 1:

The cultural story is rich, world class.

Speaker 2:

We have some of the oldest archaeological sites in North America. Going back to the the paleo Indian or they call it deep history. People that made their living on the now extinct megafauna, you know the mammoths and the bison antiquus and and so it you know there's a been a legacy of people in this in this area and so that's that's a real rich part of it and then you as you go you know people are always here for for some purpose and most likely it's food and you know good hunting in certain areas there be springs and seeps where they could jump animals. All through time this place had been used and then one of the real key things is how this initially got set aside to protect it and it's because of gold mining. There's gold in them there Dunes Joey.

Speaker 2:

And and you know they were there's a mining operation that was extracting sand out of the gold. And it was they weren't getting a lot of sand, but it was like I mean a lot of gold. They're they they were getting like maybe an ounce for every ton of sand, but that's when gold was $30 an ounce. But there was a it was a woman's club in Alamos and Monovus in Del Norte, Colorado that realized, hey, they're mining out there at the dunes and we like going out there and having a picnic and stuff. And so they got a hold of the National Park Service in the thirties and in just a couple years of of lobbying them, it became set aside as a national monument in Saint Patty's Day nineteen thirty two.

Speaker 1:

Wow. Were these dunes, they stand out as you're driving up, you can see them from miles away from Alamosa. Were these dunes for early history of people, were they an indicator of where they were at? Where did people use this for direction by any means or kinda like their own monument when they were coming through the area?

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, we talked to a lot of tribes and they talk about the dunes being the landmark. And they would bring their horses up here, the youths anyway, would bring their horses up here and train them, you know, because they'd get a wild horse and then and get on their back and just run them and, you know, exhaust them and stuff. But the first actual written description of the Great Sand Dunes came in January '7 when over one of these passes probably Bednar Pass behind us, Zebulon Montgomery Pike, lieutenant in US Army was was sent out here by Thomas Jefferson to find the southern boundary of the Louisiana Purchase. And that was the southern boundary was the headwaters of the Red And Arkansas Rivers.

Speaker 2:

And so he got up the Arkansas and gone around by where Leadville is and been you know it's January, it's getting cold and circled around and he he kinda made a loop and thought if he crossed over these mountains, he would get into the headwaters of the Red River. Well, crossed over the mountains and he sees this pile of sand and he says, they look exact in his journal, he says it looks exactly like a seared storm except as the color and totally barren of vegetation. And he walks out on the dunes, Joey, and he gets his spyglass and he sees a river. He says, yeah, I found the Red River. Well, then he goes down to to what he thinks is the Red River and builds a fort.

Speaker 2:

And because he left some some of his soldiers on the other side of the mountains because their feet were frosted. And so he builds and it's actually on the tributary of the Rio Grande and then encounters the Spanish and they actually rescue him and take him to Santa Fe and then Chihuahua. But that's the first in his journal that first written description that we know of.

Speaker 1:

Knowing that history does it you know motivate you to learn more about this area?

Speaker 2:

Oh very much. Yeah. Well constantly trying to learn about what what was happened here in the past. And that's why what's been really an eye opener for me is is the consultation with tribes and to talk to the tribes and ask them about this place. And one of the key things in those conversations is ask them in their language what they call this place.

Speaker 2:

And the youths call it, where the sand is. And the Apaches call it, place where the land moves back and forth. And the Navajo call it Cheshnoa Nos, or I'm I'm I'm not saying these words right, but but it's like to that effect where the sand will come down upon you. So they have a real description on that and that's one of the key and you make a good point, Joey, is there's many histories. And that's where we would learn so much about how the tribes looked at this place.

Speaker 2:

The Apaches come every year to collect sand for for ceremonial purposes. There's a lot of black sand in there, a lot of magnetite. And so that that helps them with the red sand for Utah and the white sand for Southern New Mexico in in a in a painting stuff. So, you know, they have a a real tie to this area.

Speaker 1:

Do you learn a lot of your management practices from how native tribes previously managed the land?

Speaker 2:

Yes, sir. And and that's one of the things too. And even today, when a few years ago we had a fire and there there it was spreading it started up up this canyon and it was spreading to an area that's on the National Register of Historic Places because it has culturally modified trees. These Ponderosa Pines where a bark had been peeled off by the tribes, by the Indians, you know, could have been used patches, we don't know. But they're nevertheless, they're living artifacts.

Speaker 2:

So we have that listed on the National Register. When that fire broke out, we we talked to them and said, look, there's there's a fire headed to, we call it Indian Grove, and what's what's your recommendation? They say suppress it. You know, has a valuable cultural values and for for the area. And so that's, you know, one of the things there too.

Speaker 2:

And and then we ask them about certain plants and and and we did a traditional use study with the affiliated tribes and asking about how we're we're doing it, what can we do different. And then certain places they wanted access to that is currently closed and and we we definitely would try to accommodate that.

Speaker 1:

You've been in your role for a long time. You've been in this park for a long time. What's the standout for you? Why do you enjoy this role so much and what fulfills you here?

Speaker 2:

Well, think the, you know, being able to accomplish things like restoration of of fish, restoration of the natural landscape. We're trying to we're in a big project right now with the lands to the west of us. It's a ranch that's been altered for from irrigation canals and things and and we're so we're trying to get that back to pre settlement conditions. You know, it's a great very rewarding and then getting a night sky designation was really good. And and then finishing up an ungulate management plan and these kind of things that that are fulfilling.

Speaker 1:

What goes into that ungulate management plan that you're working on?

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah. Basically, well, we we finally got it signed off, but it gives us guides, guidance on how we manage the elk and bison. You know? And the way we manage the elk is we disperse them, try to keep them moving around to to go into the refuge or the forest or private lands and things.

Speaker 1:

With this environment, what is the the biggest challenge or hurdle that you face in managing the resources in this park?

Speaker 2:

Well, know, they always would would tell you budget and and and and train personnel and support and the the expertise that that we need to you know, because, you know, in this in resources, we're I'm a generalist, you know, I have I know a little bit about biology over here, know a little bit about geology, a little bit about air quality, a little bit about cultural stuff like that. So I need experts. I need experts that that can help guide and help support decisions I make.

Speaker 1:

That's one of the stories actually I love about this park is you mentioned Andrew, Andrew Valdez, who's a physical scientist in the park and works with you. His work in geology among with, you know, a lot of other work led to this park actually becoming a national park by understanding this specific type of dune system. You know, how neat is that to to be able to work with Andrew and a team of ex experts in their fields that can lead to such such significant changes.

Speaker 2:

Right. Oh, and and, you know, it's like when when that was started in in my I think it was a threat for water export, you know, and there were, you know, the the the driver to protect the whole system. So then we had to really try to understand the whole system. And so we came up with a resource management strategy. And I said, do we can we define the system?

Speaker 2:

Do we understand the system? Can we monitor it? Can we manage it? And can you can we evaluate it? It's called in the acronym, DOMI.

Speaker 2:

But, anyway, it's a where we're trying to define all the things that are important, both geologically, hydrologically, culturally, biologically, that contribute to this this system.

Speaker 1:

The research particularly with the sand dune understanding the system and the aquifers that go into place here on the sand dunes is relatively new over the last couple of decades. Are are you and your staff actively learning more and more about this dune each year?

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely. And it's it's through water that we're learning. And we the USGS, you know, they're they're you know, sometimes, Joy, my whole life is a science fair project. But the there's a a office in Pueblo that does water quality monitoring. And there's some springs on the West Side and they can age date water.

Speaker 2:

Wow. They can tell you how long that water's been in the ground. And so we had them out there. We we drilled a well. There's a water coming from the deep aquifer and came back 30,000 years old.

Speaker 2:

It's been in the ground that long. And then there's some surface water that you will spring fed surface water that is tritium dead like before the atomic bomb and some that doesn't have sulfur hexafluoride or Freon or any of these indicators that that you see. So so it's like, wow, that that says that there's a long residence time in the aquifer.

Speaker 1:

For a visitor that's coming here and has, you know, plans to recreate, sandboard, sled, you know, hike the dunes here. What would you say to them to have a a more deeper ingrained experience with this landscape for them to to be able to appreciate this place beyond just the dune field and recreating there?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I'd say look around and and, you know, take a minute and pause. And and one of the things that I appreciate about these this dune field is that it's pretty user friendly. You know, you're not gonna hurt it on on foot or on a sandboard. You're not gonna hurt it. You know, it's like and so that like after working at Mesa Verde, you know, all the time I'm saying, get off the walls.

Speaker 2:

Don't do this, you know, up at Rockies. Don't go on the tundra. You know, here, go out there. You know, write your name in 10 foot letters, but no profanity. But then, you know, how many parks say that?

Speaker 2:

You write your name on the principal resource because in a couple hours, it'll be gone.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. One thing I really appreciate about you is you're you're a jokester. You like to you like to lighten the room and, you know, a lot of these conversations that you have as a resource manager, you're making really critical tough decisions about data that's being presented to you and how to manage those. But you bring light to the room and fun. How important do you think that is in your management style and how you go about your business?

Speaker 2:

Oh I think it's great. I think it's you know, you you kinda keep things in perspective. You you know, do your best. Be serious when you need to be serious. But it's it's great.

Speaker 2:

And this is a great segue to to to my joke.

Speaker 1:

Yes. I would like for you to share your joke.

Speaker 2:

That's what that's what I thought you were doing. So these are from the Pinus edulus, the the pinion pine, produces edible nuts. Right? So these are the pinion nuts. Joey, I have one in my left hand.

Speaker 2:

I got two in my right hand. What do I got here?

Speaker 1:

Well, I have to say my original answer and I said you had three nuts.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's right. But and then you would be right saying that. But I actually have the difference of opinion.

Speaker 1:

I I think these jokes are so important because of the, you know, the serious of seriousness of what I said you work on. But, you know, at the end of the day, these you have to enjoy these landscapes. Oh, yeah. And it's so hard to enjoy things when you're serious and, you know, uptight about everything that you're doing. But, you know, to be able to make jokes about nature and with nature, you know, I feel like nature has a sense of humor too.

Speaker 2:

I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm sometimes I feel like I'm a a blacksmith in love with my animal, you know, because I just this is great. I'm so honored to be a a custodian of of The United States public lands, the national parks.

Speaker 1:

One thing, the feedback that we get a lot in this podcast and, you know, that I've experienced in interviewing rangers is I've never met a type of employee in any other workforce in the world that's so madly in love with what they do other than park rangers.

Speaker 2:

Oh man, thank you. That's cool.

Speaker 1:

And you know, the the common theme across all park service employees is is that everyone gets paid in in sunsets. Right? Sure. You know, I admire that for all of the workers that you do incredible work, I admire you for the the work that you do in protecting and managing these resources.

Speaker 2:

And I admire you, Joey, for getting the word out. Really, this is really important for the public to know what's happening and and you're doing that for us, and thank you.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you. You have a your your time is critical, so for you to give it to me means a whole a whole lot to me. But I do wanna give the final question open ended to you if you have any other final thoughts that you wanted to share about this beautiful place, encouragement to get out here, or any final notes just why you think this place is special.

Speaker 2:

Oh, think you know, it's you know, they call it National Parks America's Greatest Idea and it truly is and it's just one of the things that when I was growing up, you know, as a family, we go to national parks. And so it became one of the things that we just really really appreciated. And the the system protects so many different and unique things and we try to to, you know, we're talking earlier about histories. There's many histories. There's the tribal history.

Speaker 2:

There's the the explorers, the Hispanic, you know, all these different things that contribute to a very very rich story here. And one of the things too that we're constantly learning. And so that's that's a key piece is that I don't know if Andrew told you about he belongs to a International Planetary Dune Conference. And so he gets together with them every so often, a year or two, and it's these people that study dunes on the home planet and on other, you know, like Saturn or Titan and and Mars and and look at at all these different things. And so that's one of the things that's a real benefit to protecting lands is that you can you can learn from this area because it has not been changed.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. Well, Fred, I know you have important work to get back to. So I know we could talk forever but thank you for your time and I really appreciate you sitting here and chatting with

Speaker 2:

me. Joey, it's an honor.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for checking out this edition of the Safe Travels Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. Fred has such a wonderful personality and he has so much knowledge about this amazing national park. So if you like this type of content, it'd mean a whole lot to me if you liked, commented, and subscribed. Until next time, safe travels.