2026 Loyalty Forecast: What Will Define Loyalty in the New Year?

In this episode of Travel Buddy, Switchfly's CEO, Nowell Outlaw is joined by loyalty industry leader Mark Johnson of Loyalty360 to unpack the latest trends and challenges shaping customer loyalty programs for 2025 and beyond. Together, they examine surprising data on travel resilience, the growing demand for value, and the nuanced role of personalization and AI in building lasting brand relationships. Gain fresh perspectives on balancing technology, customer trust, and simplicity in program design, as well as practical advice for loyalty leaders looking to evolve their strategies. Tune in for actionable insights and firsthand research that will help you elevate your loyalty initiatives in the year ahead.

Chapters
(00:01) Navigating Value in Loyalty Programs
(03:36) Dispelling Travel and Loyalty Myths
(05:33) Shifting Trends in Points Redemption
(07:52) Impact of Devaluation on Customer Trust
(10:37) Personalization and Program Simplification
(15:36) AI, Data, and Privacy Concerns
(23:42) Getting Started and Organizational Focus
(32:33) Empowerment and Industry Collaboration

Connect with Switchfly
Website: https://www.switchfly.com/
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchflyOfficial

Creators and Guests

Host

Nowell Outlaw

Chief Executive Officer of Switchfly

What is Travel Buddy with Switchfly?

See more at Switchfly.com

Welcome to Travel Buddy,
presented by Switchfly.

In this podcast, we talk about all
things travel, rewards, and loyalty.

Let's get to it.

Brandon Giella: Hello, and welcome
back to another episode of Travel

Buddy presented by Switch Fly.

Today we have a lovely guest in
addition to the Inimitable Noel Outlaw.

Noel, thank you for being here again.

We have Mark Johnson of Loyalty 360,
and he's gonna be talking today about

some trends and themes, data research.

Things that he and his team have been
thinking about for 2025 and what's maybe

surprised them or what has, you know,
maybe doubled down on this year, but also

thinking about 2026, that's where we'll
be spending the bulk of our time today.

So we'll be talking about loyalty trends.

For 2026, for leaders that are
thinking about travel, wanting

to implement, travel, or enhance
their programs for the next year.

So Mark, I will turn it over to you first.

I would love to hear, based on some of the
trends that you're seeing or maybe shifts.

In different industries, you know,
data points that have been challenging,

maybe your own narratives or
narratives that are in the market.

What have you seen this year that, has
been surprising to you or interesting to

you regarding, you know, themes, trends,
maybe myths in the market, for 2025?

based on your research, what have
you guys been thinking about?

Mark Johnson: Well, I, there's
a couple different things, a few

different things, kind of overarching
themes we've seen throughout 2025.

the first one is value.

There's a big push right now for
value within customer loyalty

holistically, and that takes, a couple
of form factors, value in the program

internally, value of the customer.

To the program and then value
the program to the brand.

so that, that's a big push and that,
that, you know, that, that some brands

are, are looking at redoing their
program, enhancing their program.

We do a state of customer loyalty
research paper every year, and

inevitably we've done it three years
in order be four years, this year.

New reward options travel, being one of
them is usually number one this year.

it slid into number four.

Um, but I think that is a reflection
of, you know, there, there's a big

push for optimization right now.

Brands are looking and they're
trying to solve this value

equation, economic headwinds.

You know, certain people
may not be spending more.

And, and, and I think there's a big,
say conundrum, but you know, everyone's

saying that people aren't spending,
there's malaise right now in the economy.

I know we talked a little bit, you
know, as we prep for this, that, that,

that, that travel and, and other.

industries remain strong.

Some are, some are challenged,
but, I think the, the economy may

be stronger than it, it actually
is being perceived, especially

what we hear.

We, we, from the brands, we get to
talk to a hundred different brands.

You know, every other month we talk to
kind of our, our brand members, what

they're seeing, what they're doing.

and and they do wanna
optimize their program.

They're trying to provide value for
their customers, but they're also

trying to differentiate their offering
and make sure it's resonant with the

customers and can add that incremental,
behavioral, push that they're looking for.

And I think those are kind of
the, kind of the bigger trends

that I think we're seeing.

Brandon Giella: Okay, great.

I wanna talk next about, you know,
how how can loyalty leaders do that,

basically implement those, those trends
for 2026 or be thinking about them.

So we'll get there in a second, but Noel,
before we started recording, you were

talking about maybe some of the, the myths
or the stories or the narratives that

have been in 2025 and how you're seeing in
hard data that that may not be the case.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nowell Outlaw: sure.

There's always this narrative about, you
know, travel slipping whenever there's,

economic instability and things like that
with, you know, that travel, leisure,

travel specifically, will take a hit.

Right?

And we haven't seen that.

At all.

Right.

And it's, um, even if I go
back a year ago, people were

worried about, you know, growth.

Are you gonna be able to
achieve these numbers?

You know, what are you seeing?

And um, you know, we have
programs that are growing 10,

20% month over month, right?

Increasing bookings.

We had one customer in November
do over 300% growth, right?

From running specials and
doing these different things.

But, um.

You know, across the board, especially
right now when you think it's December

2nd, programs are on the slowdown because
of the holidays and whenever we are

not seeing that, we're seeing them grow

on a, on a, it doesn't matter what
it is, what region of the world,

they're all growing, which is good.

Brandon Giella: Wow, wow.

Very cool.

Very cool.

Okay, that's good to know.

It's good to know because sometimes
you see these headlines and you're just

like, man, is everybody just, it's.

n not good,

Nowell Outlaw: No, and I

Brandon Giella: data, how people are
actually voting with their own dollars.

Like, how's that going?

Yeah,

Nowell Outlaw: I, you know, and I do
think in the loyalty sphere, right?

Because really all these
programs are loyalty programs.

Um, you see people spinning
their points first versus

using their credit card, right?

So, so specifically from a travel
value perspective, what we see

is more points being redeemed
and less, credit card spend.

So we can, we have

the ability to top up and so.

You know, people could sp,
people could say, you know, I'm

booking a hotel in Las Vegas.

I could take 20% of my points
and 80% of my credit card, or I

could take, you know, 80% of my
points and 20% of my credit card.

They've definitely switched
to burning more, more points.

Brandon Giella: What does that tell you?

What, what, what kind of like
anecdotally, or maybe just like

some thoughts that you might have,
what does that communicate to you?

Nowell Outlaw: Mark?

I dunno if you wanna

chime

Mark Johnson: No, I, I think that,
that, that really backs up, you

know, what, what we're seeing.

It's that value equation and how
can you help that customer, right?

So being able to.

You know, use those points, that value
they have in the program immediately, you

know, even if it's 10, 15, 20, $30 Right.

To get that next trip that shows that
the, the brand is, is resonant, with the

customer.

They understand what the, they're
being asked and it kind of,

and it, it, it activates that
customer in a very unique way.

'cause not all brands are doing
that, but being able to kind of use

that that currency they have within
the brand for that experience

reward or that travel or whatever
it may that they're doing.

Is, is very important.

'cause not all brands are doing that, but
it, it's that responsiveness I think that,

that brands need to be fo focused on.

And, and, it's, it's a good thing.

Nowell Outlaw: Yeah, I mean, I
will tell you, I probably can't

say who the customer is, but we
did have a customer program, um.

That for, there might be a
soccer event happening next year.

They sold, I think, I think it's $4
million worth of those tickets in an hour.

all points.

Right?

So, So, you know, like there is
definitely value when you're like

struggling to Hey, how can I get a
ticket to this game or to this thing?

And you know, being able to use
your points on that because I'm

telling you those, some of those
sporting events are crazy expensive

and people really want to use it.

I think in travel specifically, you
know, if you, if you, I, I have this

conversation with my neighbor all the time
'cause he's a road warrior and I'm like.

The, the joke, from a long time ago
about when I had my airplane businesses,

'cause you get people that come up
and say, well, do you wanna go fly?

And they're like, you know, that's
kind of like coming up and asking a

postman if he wants to go for a walk.

Right?

Same thing if you're traveling
your salesperson, whatever.

You travel a lot.

Kind of the last thing you wanna do is, go
get on an airplane to take another trip.

Right, using your points.

And so, you know, being able to redeem for
other things is also equally important,

I think in the, in the travel ecosystem
specifically that that people service, so.

Mark Johnson: A hundred percent.

And I, and I think one of the things
that we've seen, not to mention

names, but there's been some,
you know, Delta got hammered last

year for making it more difficult.

There's been some hotel programs
right, that have devalued

the program to make numbers.

Obviously that's a short term
focus, but that has some very,

kind of deleterious impacts from
an emotional engagement long term.

So you make it more
difficult to use points.

Well, that, that's not, not good,
especially in this time of, of need.

And it, it, it's across
all demographics, right?

Being there for that customer, whether
they're, you know, multimillionaire or

someone who's maybe struggling to get by.

It's that, that, that resonant
that, that customer hears me.

I saw a study yesterday,
it came across, um.

about, 69% of customers over the last year
have had a, what they called, kind of a

rage baiting type experience with a cust,

with a, with a brand, which to me is,
I'm not sure how to define that, but

that, that, that's a significance.

And, and brands don't listen.

and, but now they're starting to, right?

I mean, a couple of the, the
hotel loyalty programs that really

devalued the program, right?

20,000, points a night.

Traditionally now it's 50 60.

come on.

That's just not, that, that, that
doesn't say you've got me, right?

That says that, really don't value you.

and, and we, we, there's not that empathy,

Brandon Giella: Yeah,

I, I have this good friend who, he is
a successful entrepreneur, traveled

globally all the time for his work,
and he was, trying to be a very

loyal customer of a major airline.

And after his experience over
30 years, he felt like they kept

moving the goalposts on that, you
know, that premium membership.

And he felt well, if that was
the case, I wish I could go

back and have like kind of.

Not been so loyal was his point because
he felt like they just didn't care

about him because they kept moving the
goalposts out and he never achieved

that status that he was actually looking
for despite traveling all the time.

So I know it can, it can really, you
know, make an impact with if that,

if they feel like the goalposts
are moving like that and you keep

devaluing it, and that's really tough.

Nowell Outlaw: Got

Mark Johnson: A hundred percent.

Brandon Giella: I'm curious.

So, so Mark, you've talked about, um, and
this question is for both of you, but,

but, um, but I'll, I'll start with Mark.

So you've talked about
value being the main driver.

How do you create value?

What is value for your particular
segments within your customer base?

Um, and so I'm curious, like, how,
how do you hope that brands would.

Live that out or implement that in 2026.

And what do you see?

Maybe that brands are doing wrong or
getting wrong, and if they could focus in

this direction, they would actually be a
lot better off, maybe like thematically.

But then very tactically, what are
some things that you would recommend?

Mark Johnson: Well, there
are a couple things.

So, as I mentioned, the study that we
do, every year, from a, from a brand

perspective is, you know, personalization,
enhanced personalization is kind of

the number one area of focus this

year.

And that's kind of a, a quandary, right?

Because what personalization means
to the brand may be different than

what it may mean to the customer.

And, and being able to action
on that is, is, is a big

challenge, like cheers, right?

Everyone knew Norm's name.

He walked in Norm.

Wow.

We know Norm.

Right?

So, but, and that's what the, what the
promise of all these new technologies,

all the data, that, that these
brands have at their fingertips.

But being able to action
on that is very difficult.

And getting back to that, being able
to be resonant with the customer,

understanding what they want.

Brands sometimes get to
be a little tone deaf.

they don't necessarily hear
what the customers want.

Right.

Especially in

times of economic need.

We we're not gonna be
there for the customer.

And I think that that's a big challenge.

So if you're, it's truly listening
to and understanding what the

customers are asking of you, and

being able to action on that, that, that's
kind of the basis of personalization.

But brands also struggle
with technology, right?

Uh, oftentimes, the MarTech
stack is, is expansive.

It's growing the, you know,
the, the technology says we

can do this, this, and this.

and it may not be able to do that.

So that creates some,
cacophony as well, right?

That, that, that, that creates
some dissonance where brands

have to negotiate through.

but it's, it, it, it's this whole idea
of simplification and optimization

are, are two, are our advisory boards.

See that the, those are kind of the
two big pieces is simplifying the

programs, simplifying the approach, and,
you know, and, optimizing it as well,

Brandon Giella: Hmm hmm.

Okay.

I want to, I want to come back to that,
but No, I want to hear more what you might

be thinking as well, as you're thinking
about seeing in the data, thinking about

2026, advising leaders, what do you say?

Nowell Outlaw: Think like Netflix.

It's that easy, right?

It, it really is because okay,
there's some population of the

planet that doesn't use Netflix,
but it tends to work generally.

because I can tell this story and
everybody gets it right, which

is, you know, if you're an action
adventure guy or gal I guess, and

you know, you get suggested movies
to watch and things like that.

You know, my wife is a romcom person.

She opens her Netflix, she
gets romcom stuff right?

To, all of a sudden to put horror
movies in the middle of her romcom

stack makes no sense whatsoever.

Right?

it just doesn't make any sense.

And, and I think it's true for loyalty
with consumers, which is, you know,

if it's a rom-com person, let's put
the rom-com stuff in front of them.

Let's not put the horror movie.

It's really just that simple.

And if you think a little bit the
way Netflix or you know, Amazon and

all these other guys do that, it's
suggested based upon the learnings of

what you've watched, what you've clicked
on, what you've done, this other stuff.

And you know, I think loyalty programs
need to really pay attention to that,

right?

Because that's what.

Effectively Mark is saying, which
is, you know, use the data in a

smart way to basically offer things
that benefit the consumer, ideally

at their time of purchase, right.

Or at their time of, of need, but
also, um, with the right thing, right?

That's, that's the most important thing

Brandon Giella: And I think an important
part of that too is you, you don't want

to suggest only the things that they like.

There's gotta be a little
discovery in there as well.

Hey, you might not like this movie, or,
or, you know, or you might, you might

not, your data would suggest, maybe this
is a little bit outside the category,

but you might still really like that too.

You know, that kind of idea.

Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw: So,

Mark Johnson: Well, that, that gets
to, another issue of loyalty programs.

There's a big push right now,
gamification, zero party data,

understanding interest, trying to
understand the emotional triggers.

but if you get those wrong, that,
that, that can push people away.

Right.

And, and I think that that next
best action that some kind of, that.

That the ancillary product is
very important to get right.

But many brands don't, don't do that well.

Right.

To your point, do you suggest
a, a horror film when the only

thing I like is comedies Right.

Or maybe a good drama once in a while.

And I think brands trying to understand
the customers, they have too much data.

And being able to simplify it, even
when you talk with a consultant, right?

A brand brings in a, a large
consultant, a Deloitte, an Accenture.

Not to to, you know, Deb base them,
but you know, we need all this data.

We have this big process.

You know, you, you don't
need all that data.

Again, this simplicity six, seven
data points and action on it.

And if you can't action on it,
tell 'em thank you and we're

not gonna be able to do that.

And, and we, we, we, we
appreciate that input, right?

And that, I think that's.

Brands ask so much from
customers, more data.

What are your interests?

What are your passion points?

They don't action on, they don't
do anything like, well, what the

heck they come on that data for?

If they're

not going to do anything that can impact
me or, you know, enhance my experience.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yep, yep.

Yeah.

And, and big data and, and personalization
and segmentation has been a big trend

for a long time, but do you see that
AI is maybe changing the game on that?

I mean, I feel like every episode,
every podcast in 2025 has to talk

about AI at some point, but just real
briefly, like how are you guys seeing.

That technology being adopted or utilized
in some way that is interesting to you

because you need to drive value, which
requires personalization using data.

Like how, how is that
changing the mix right now?

Mark Johnson: I think there's a
couple things with, with AI earlier

this year it was, was one of the,
the top 10 kind of qualitative,

areas of interest for brands when we

met with on the brand side
earlier at the conference.

but, but many brands were
doing it in a very unique way.

We did an AI study last year.

Where brands were looking to hire
teams to manage the AI because they're

very concerned with kind of the,
the, the quote, the haze or kind of

AI going rogue, similar to, I'm sure
you're all familiar with the target

story, where Target did a personalized
communication, a number of years back

and they ended up sending this one
guy, a gentleman an offer a discount

for baby diapers or for baby clothing.

And he's well, I don't need this.

I'm 50 years old, my daughter's 20.

He's well, the daughter was buying
things in the store that the model

said this person is pregnant.

And he's ah, there's no way he
calls Target and just reams them.

Right?

I know

people tell this a true story and
the girl is actually pregnant, right?

So, but many people are, are,

just concerned, and they're like, well,
wow, that data was actually right.

But with, with data, with ai, it, it's
similar to the autonomous vehicles, right?

And kind of the pushback.

There's a lot of fear around that, people
being disintermediated how to use it.

So brands, were hiring teams,
you know, we're gonna do a, this

hyper segmentation communication.

We're gonna use, text and
proximity and, and email.

But we're checking everything,
so that doesn't work.

So I think, and there, there was a
big concern on who has my data if I'm

putting it into copilot, you know, so
now we've moved from the large language

models to small language models.

and We can bring it inhouse and we can
run it and you know, it's okay to mess up.

Right.

But you know, I liken it to,
at least earlier, to the whole,

the autonomous vehicles, right?

There's what been six or
seven people die total.

It's a very small number.

There's 12,000-13,000
accidents in the US a day, and

people are concerned about.

You know, it is safer, but

it's that uncertainty.

Right.

Oh.

But, but, but yeah, I think that,
that, they're definitely starting

to warm to it, but their brands
had to come up with their, like

organizational approaches, right?

Kind of a, an agreed upon, a data map,
but also how, how are we going to use it,

their, their, their approach to using ai.

And I think many brands
starting to do that.

And it's definitely
starting to, to warm up.

Nowell Outlaw: Yeah, I.

You know, it's interesting.

So last week, week before I was
at a concert, a thousand people

in Denver, mostly younger people,

and

the lead singer, stood up on stage and
was basically, you know, expletive.

'cause we'll keep his pg ai and

the whole room cheered.

And I was sitting there, I was like, whoa.

That, I haven't had that, right?

Because what I, you know, you read
the news and you see this stuff and

you're, you know, oh, the market
and it's all related to stuff.

But there, it was the first
time that I realized there,

there might be some blowback

happening, and maybe it's a
younger generation with the

job loss and blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah and all this
stuff, but you know.

While AI can can change the world in a lot

of ways, right?

There's also a negative
implication of doing that, right?

And I, and I do think that when you
think about loyalty brand, you know that

example about sending the wrong thing,

that's a real risk, right?

It means hey, you actually
don't know who I am.

And I think that, I think that
where the tech ends up is that

everyone, as an individual consumer.

It's already done now, like they
know so much about you, right?

Why does, why does the Nest thermostat
really exist, and why was it

valued at over a billion dollars?

Because Google knows now when you're
home and when you're not home,

right?

Just by the adjustment of a knob, right?

So they can target you based upon
those types of things, right?

I mean, it's, it's super
weird when you start.

Taking all these things in.

But when you

start thinking about, well, how
does that infect large language

models and the large language model
is gonna drive personalization,

but I think there's a line where

if it's, if you share that
you have too much data on

someone, it's gonna spook 'em.

It's, it's definitely gonna spook 'em.

And I think that that is where, you
know, it depends on the generation

where people are like, Hey, I, I
do not want you to have my data.

Right.

I think the other side is that's
potentially coming because they're,

they're vacuuming up data by the,
you know, gigabit per second, and

it's something to be aware of,

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

It's definitely in the background
of these kind of conversations.

everybody wants personalized, content,
but they don't want it too personalized.

But I'm, I'm seeing a lot of, pushback
in the, the AI conversations in the

creative industry, obviously, because
people want, that that kind of like

humanness when they're creating,
but also when they're receiving.

And I think that's,
it's, that's very fuzzy.

That's a very broad concept,
but, but there's something

to that, that I think leaders

Nowell Outlaw: I mean, I met a guy in
Lisbon who, was in part of the lawsuit.

I think against one of 'em

because like his wife's book or something

was basically being used in all
this stuff, and I think that,

you know, the, there's a whole
economy of what's happening, right?

If you type into one of these engines and
say, give me the best recipe for A, B, C,

and that recipe has come from a top
chef, then he put it on his website.

Has it been stolen?

You know what I mean?

there's all

this stuff.

He used to use it to sell his book,
but now he doesn't get the book back.

So anyway, we're way off topic.

But

you know, I think it's, I think
it's, um, I think long term in

even short term, people just
have to use it in the right way,

you know?

Yes.

It can automate the live daylights out
of your content so that everyone sounds

like a pro and does all this stuff.

And you can

send out, you know, instead of
sending five emails a week, you

can now send 50 emails a week.

But you gotta think about the
consumer and go, I don't want

50 emails a week from you.

Like, that's that's overkill,

right?

Like, let's not go there.

So

Brandon Giella: yeah.

Agreed.

And, and to connect the dots a little bit.

So, mark, you led with.

If you want to be successful in your
loyalty program, it needs to provide

value to the customer, to the employee.

All of these things are
very, very important.

That's always been the case.

I mean, that's always the case of
any business you interact with or

anything that you buy or purchase.

You need it to be valuable.

The way to do that is that it needs
to be personalized, but to do that

well, you have to have a lot of data.

Which AI is a perfect fit for
doing that, but if you don't get

it right, you can break that trust
that you have with the employee.

And so there's, there's all these
kind of big narratives that are kind

of coalescing in getting this right.

So I, I can hear.

Listeners thinking,
that's overwhelming to me.

There's so much technology,
there's so much data, there's so

much, you know, customer stories
and narratives that are happening

politically, economically, socially.

I'm overwhelmed.

I don't know what to do in 2026.

Where do I get started?

What is some practical or concrete
examples or steps that a leader

could take to think about, okay,
I want to improve my program.

Early next year, where do I even begin?

Where do I start?

Mark Johnson: I, when brands look
at, kinda where their program is, and

I think it, it, there's, there's a
dichotomy between a customer loyalty

program and a customer loyalty focus.

So people who have a
customer loyalty program.

they may have two or three junior people.

They may be working with an agency to
help them work, create their, do their

creative and work on their strategy.

But organizations have a customer loyalty
focus and you're seeing more of that

chief customer officer.

it can be the side to side of the
chief marketing officer, or it can be

kind of completely different one or
a chief customer experience officer,

that there's a dis kind of a dichotomy.

And the brands that are focused on
true customer loyalty and they're,

they're not just focused on the
programmatic, we're giving you

points, we're giving you whatever.

There's that reciprocity between
that and, but brands have a hard time

looking at it honestly and saying,
ah, this is not a reciprocal program.

Right.

I'm looking at to this to drive as
much transactional volume as they

can, and sometimes the customer.

If they're, you know, getting back
to the value I'm asking me, I'm

asking the brand for value, you're
telling me to buy more things.

Well that may not be what I

want to do right now.

And, and if you push that, that's
where you can alienate the customer.

So, I, I, I think it's being able
to truly listen to and understand

the customers, making sure the, the
brand, the program is simple and it

is resonant with the customers, even
from a, a travel and partnership per.

Perspective brands are optimizing that
maybe our partnerships don't work, right?

Maybe it's not good for all of our
clients, so maybe we need to call three

or four of these and pick out the two
or three or four that are providing

the most impact, for that customer.

It's simple.

They understand what the program
is, and, and so I think that's, you

know, it, it's, it's simplifying,
making sure that it, it's resonant

and also, you know, and making sure
that, again, it's providing the value.

But also that it's at that
agency conflict we all learned

about in business school, right?

What may be good for the CEO comes in,
and, you know, chainsaw Dunlap, remember,

al back in the day, well, it was great
for him 'cause he made all his bonuses,

but for the, you know, 30% of, you know,
Sunbeam or whoever was at the time that

he ended up cutting maybe not as good.

So I think that it's making
sure that, that, that there's.

Equal value, kind of with within anything
that you've designed, which, which can

be challenged.

'cause you have to say, you have to have
that metacognition saying, well, maybe

it's really not providing that value.

And it's hard for people to step
outside of what they see to see it

from the customer impact perspective.

Brandon Giella: Okay.

So maybe if I, if I could summarize,
kinda where you're going is, is maybe

the theme is get back to basics.

What is the real value that you're driving
for the customer, and is that the thing

that's prioritized in our organization?

Are we actually, do we have a C-suite
officer who's, who's over this program

or, or they even the focus, I like
how you distinguish those two things

and then can we simplify it and
make sure that that's the thing that

we're actually focused on this year.

Is that a fair summary?

Mark Johnson: I think so.

And, and getting back to the,
that example of Norm, right?

technology was supposed
to enable that, right?

Everyone knows, so Sam
knew Norm very well, right?

He's not gonna say Your beer is
50% more expensive, or you have

to do these five things in order
to come into the bar next time.

And brands aren't
necessarily doing that right?

But it, it, it.

Technology, it makes it a little cold
sometimes, so they can just start looking

at that as numbers versus a person.

And obviously if you have millions of
people in a program, you can't look

at them individually as a person.

But you know, having that quote unquote
empathy, to a certain degree for the

customers is hard, because, you know,
they, they have to hit those metrics.

But again, would you do that
to someone you saw in person?

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is the fear around ai.

Like I, I want to be, I want to
be a human, I want to be empathize

with, but it's hard to do.

It's hard to do.

Nowell Outlaw: Yeah.

Brandon Giella: No, what do you say?

Nowell Outlaw: I think that
personalization will get there.

Um, I was just thinking that.

Six, seven years ago, I helped
build a program for life insurance.

Completely different outside of
this, but this is seven years ago.

And, it gave you a predictive score based
upon your ability to be underwritten

for

life insurance without a blood test,

right?

Pretty simple used about, I think
26 data points that's out there

in the market to basically build.

A model for whether or not you as
a human being, are under writeable

and you think about the risk that
that insurance companies take on

to whether or not I should float you.

You know, do you own a house?

Cars, like all those things.

And I think that, you know.

That will get to that point eventually
in these loyalty programs, right?

Where I can look at you as a person and
I can know all this other data about you.

And a lot of that stuff is not really
pulled into these programs yet.

And once you understand that, you
can have a really comprehensive

view about that consumer and now you can
really start targeting things directly

for what they want, need, you know,
and their, their desires are right.

And, and it's not there yet.

And I think, you know, less is more
for sure, and crawl, walk, run.

But I think over the next five
years you're gonna start to see

that stuff shift that way, right?

Where, you know, they, you'll have
so much data and so much information,

and so much, you know, speed of, you
know, Hey, this person is shopping,

they're doing this for a trip.

You know, maybe, or, or what.

What we're also seeing is, hey, you
know, Brandon's on a trip right now.

Right.

He's in Cancun.

Let me send him an offer for, you
know, swim with the Dolphins, bang,

right when he is on his trip, like that
kind of stuff is starting to happen,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

I would love that actually.

You know, if like in part can
I get an offer that is that

specific, that'd be amazing.

Um, what would you say, what, what would
be like a practical next step of somebody

who's okay, I want to go down that road.

I want to be more highly personalized in
a very trustworthy, very honorable way.

I want to use AI the right way.

What would you say to
them, about how they could.

Maybe get started on that journey
next year if they're not already.

Mark Johnson: for, I think it's
a couple different things, right?

It's understanding kind of where
you are and having an honest

benchmark of where you are.

Doing some focus groups, kind of a
diverse set of focus groups, right?

your different demographics.

You have that segmented
one from the program.

You have that segmented from
an acquisition perspective.

And then, you know, I I, if
you have opportunities to get

kind of to, to listen, right?

To listen to the

bad, scenarios, right?

And that's what.

We hear from brands that,
you know, the CMOs on four or

five, six calls a week, right?

They go to the call center and
hear them complaining about

a service that foible they've had,
and that's wow, I never saw this.

Right?

'cause oftentimes in the quote unquote.

Ivory towers, they may not be hearing and
seeing that, that frontline interaction.

And then you can see how, how is customer
service enabled to do certain things?

What is the, you know,
how do you make decisions?

So if someone buys from me once a month,
maybe we do something a little more than

someone buys from me every other year.

But just understanding where
those service level opportunities

are and, and how do you.

And get that buy-in, that
organizational buy-in.

It's interesting.

We, we, we talked earlier about Netflix.

I just finished his,
autobiography on Reed Hastings.

Very interesting book on how he
did things, how he hired people,

how he empowered people, you know.

So, I mean, obviously they're, they're,
they're the ultimate example of kinda

a customer, experience organization.

I mean, they hired people where
they were looking to, we need

to build this whole system.

And the people were like, why do
have 25 people need sign up one?

No, you decided, do you think
it's the right thing to do?

And she's holy cow, I can sign off
on a 25 million project right now.

It's yeah, absolutely.

If you think it's the right
thing to do, do it right.

And, and, but obviously those
cultures are rare, but I, I think

it's having that aligned organization,
um, is a big piece of that.

Nowell Outlaw: Yeah.

If you, If you,

ever read the book, oh, I don't
remember his name, the founder of

Zappos, the shoes, you, and you
read his book about how he empowered

his call center staff, right.

To do the right

thing at all times.

I mean, that's a, that's a
cultural, shift from the norm.

Right?

and and as an example, I think it was
like midnight or something, and he

called his call center and he had them
order him a pizza and have it delivered.

To the shoe customer service and

they did it.

They didn't know it was him.

They did it right, because

they're there to take care of
the customer and, and you know, a

absolutely crazy, but, but I think with.

With all of this, it comes also
back to who is your customer?

'cause

different brands service different needs
in different segments of the market,

right?

So if you're an air carrier or a
hotel, or a, you know, food redemption

thing, or you know, whatever it is, you
know, that also comes into play like

is, you know, am I getting rewards
that make sense based upon the brand

that I'm also affiliated with, right?

Mark Johnson: Yeah.

Brandon Giella: And a big part
of that would be empowerment.

You have to empower the people that are
actually listening to the customer to

be able to make those kind of decisions.

And that's, that's not always an
easy thing, but very important.

Okay.

Any, final takeaways?

Anything that you guys wanna make
sure that, loyalty leaders listening

are, are keeping in mind for
the next, say, six to 12 months?

Mark Johnson: you know, I think there,
the, the, the community, that obviously,

Noel and his team are part of it.

It's growing and I think that there
was a great deal of reticence,

for a period of time to talk about
what's working from a brand or

even technologies, sharing, right?

how do we work together?

But it, it is definitely, changing.

Brands are willing to talk about
what's the opportunities are, what

they're seeing, what they're hearing.

They want solutions, a, a
good percentage of them.

And I think that obviously there's a
great deal of technologies that are

doing some really cool things out there.

but, but I think there's an
openness to trying to change things,

trying to get things right that,

Brandon Giella: I like that.

Mark Johnson: and, and it share.

I think that's, that's what
we're seeing a lot more of.

Nowell Outlaw: Yep.

Brandon Giella: I like that.

That's great.

Nowell Outlaw: I think I'm

Brandon Giella: great.

Okay, well, as always, mark and
his team have amazing research, so

please go to loyalty three sixty.org

and you can see, a lot of the ways that
they're thinking their insights and their

data, um, if you're thinking about either,
starting or improving your program for

2026, and of course, the Switch Fly Team
always has great resources available

as well at their [e-mail].

Thank you for listening.

Thank you, Noel.

Thank you Mark for joining,
and we will see you next time.

Nowell Outlaw: Thanks Brandon.

Mark Johnson: Thank you very much.