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Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
More from us: https://ucl.ac.uk/ioe
00:00:01:04 - 00:00:09:12
Dr Brian Irvine
Do you think, as a psychologist that your skills actually helped? Or was it just you hope that they helped?
00:00:09:15 - 00:00:28:05
Dr Ellie Buckley
I mean, if I'm to be frank, I think I think it was I was hopeful that they would help. And in reality, I think I was just overthinking everything in that game, which resulted in me not taking much action. I think it's absolutely a game of instinct and intuition, and actually you have to go in and you have to be bold.
00:00:28:07 - 00:00:39:29
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah. So but you know what? If I'd had a Professor Hannah Fry’s mathematical theory about how to spot traitors - that seems like it might work.
00:00:40:01 - 00:00:49:27
Male voiceover
You're listening to IOE Insights. The UCL Institute of Education podcast at University College London.
00:00:49:29 - 00:01:12:03
Dr Brian Irvine
Hello, my name is Dr Brian Irvine. I work at the Centre for Research in Autism and Education here at the Institute of Education at UCL. I'm here with the completely wonderful Dr Ellie Buckley, who is a psychologist who here at IOE’s CRAE, the Centre for Research in Autism and Education, studied how autistic performers are sometimes misjudged by others.
00:01:12:10 - 00:01:26:27
Dr Brian Irvine
She then went to the Traitor's Castle, where the whole game is about judging and misjudging other people. So today we're asking, does actually having a grounding in educational research help or does it get in the way? Ellie. Hello?
00:01:26:29 - 00:01:27:22
Dr Ellie Buckley
Hi.
00:01:27:24 - 00:01:28:19
Dr Ellie Buckley
Nice to see you.
00:01:28:26 - 00:01:30:13
Dr Brian Irvine
So good to see you.
00:01:30:16 - 00:01:48:22
Dr Brian Irvine
So. Yeah. Ellie left CRAE just before I joined. So I've always known the ghost of Ellie. Ellie, it's so good to see you, actually, in real life. So welcome back. I'm going to ask you first, what big ideas did you take away from your years here at CRAE and the IOE.
00:01:48:24 - 00:02:14:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, wow. I mean, it really laid the foundation for the work I do now around inclusion and accessibility. And I think really broadly around that now in my kind of work in consulting, I think it was very much using an evidence based approach where possible, the, the rigour of research, you know, all of those kind of things were really embedded into me while I was doing my PhD.
00:02:14:09 - 00:02:15:03
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh.
00:02:15:05 - 00:02:35:24
Dr Brian Irvine
They are such good skills to be taking out too. Well, not just, yeah. Life and everything else, but to take out to The Traitors. But we'll get back to that soon. Before you got to the castle, what did people in your life say? So, you know, I'm sure that you and Ross couldn't tell everyone that you were going, but there must have been maybe mums and dads who may have known about it.
00:02:35:25 - 00:02:36:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
No.
00:02:36:06 - 00:02:36:10
Dr Ellie Buckley
No.
00:02:36:12 - 00:02:38:16
Dr Brian Irvine
None at all?
00:02:38:18 - 00:02:51:16
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah, we kept top secret, I think, because we luckily went in there as a pair. We were able to talk about it with each other, and so it was easier to not tell everyone. And it was a really fun surprise to tell everyone as it launched on New Year's Day.
00:02:51:18 - 00:02:53:09
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh, that sounds like so cool.
00:02:53:15 - 00:03:11:13
Dr Brian Irvine
Happy New year's. Look, we're on television. I mean, better than a hangover, isn't it? With you and Ross? Yes. I'm assuming you applied, and, you know, you were going in together, and that was part of your application. Can I ask why? What was it a great idea? Because it sounds fantastic.
00:03:11:15 - 00:03:29:00
Dr Ellie Buckley
Do you know what we, We used to sit on the sofa and watch all the previous seasons, right? And we were massive fans. And then I thought, well, there's normally a secret pair in the show. Why not us? I think people sometimes think we're a bit of an unsuspecting couple. We're quite we're from different backgrounds and we are quite different in character as well.
00:03:29:04 - 00:03:32:15
Dr Ellie Buckley
And so I was like, let's just give it a go. Let's see if we can both get on this show.
00:03:32:22 - 00:03:45:29
Dr Brian Irvine
Now, this sitting on the sofa bit leads me really nicely into my first big question. You in particular. And you know, I remember watching this, and I was just thinking. You obviously wanted to be a traitor. Yeah. Am I right there?
00:03:46:01 - 00:03:51:15
Dr Ellie Buckley
I did, I did want to be a traitor, but I thought that's because they have all the advantage in this game.
00:03:51:16 - 00:04:14:06
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. Now I'm going to ask you, particularly with the whole idea of sitting with Ross on the sofa beforehand. Where did the confidence come from that you'd be good at being a traitor. You'd watched early series. Was other people telling you you would be had the right mindset to be a traitor? I also know that your thesis has a great big bit about bandura and the sources of self-efficacy.
00:04:14:12 - 00:04:25:28
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah, this whole idea. How do you go about mastering? How do you go about vicarious experience? How do you go about persuasion? Like who did this to you to make you think you could be an amazing traitor?
00:04:26:00 - 00:04:41:10
Dr Ellie Buckley
Do you know what I don't think? Actually, that's what drove my decision to ask to be a traitor. It wasn't that I was completely confident that I could do it. I've never had to be in a situation where I've had to lie to other people and be duplicitous. Duplicitous before.
00:04:41:12 - 00:04:44:12
Dr Brian Irvine
So as a researcher. You don't do lying well.
00:04:44:15 - 00:04:45:00
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh,
00:04:45:03 - 00:04:46:01
Dr Brian Irvine
No, no, no.
00:04:46:04 - 00:05:09:22
Dr Ellie Buckley
And actually, what I learned when I was playing the game, even as a faithful, you know, I was keeping my relationship under wraps. I hadn't told people about my career. And actually, I found that very challenging. And I really didn't enjoy actually being misleading with other people. So no, my my decision to ask to be a traitor was more led by the thought that I want to win this game, and I think the traitors have a serious advantage.
00:05:09:22 - 00:05:11:21
Dr Ellie Buckley
So I've just got to give it my best shot.
00:05:11:23 - 00:05:21:29
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah, lots of people who do their PhDs have a very competitive spirit, don't they? Yeah. I don't know. Have you ever tried to do an escape room with a group of PhD students? Oh, yeah.
00:05:22:00 - 00:05:26:13
Dr Ellie Buckley
No, I think we did it back at CRAE actually. Yeah, yeah, we're very persistent.
00:05:26:16 - 00:05:49:28
Dr Brian Irvine
Very, very persistent. But also just. There is no one standing there and going, yeah, whatever. It'll be all right. Everybody just straight on, full on and in there. So that kind of attitude you brought to the castle itself. But that attitude, you know, you can't be full on all the time when you're in the castle. So. Well, what was it about?
00:05:50:00 - 00:05:58:23
Dr Brian Irvine
Well, when did it become a performance and when did it become actually. Ellie. Being competitive. Ellie.
00:05:58:25 - 00:06:16:09
Dr Ellie Buckley
Do you know what? Actually, I think from the the the day we started filming or the day we arrived in Scotland, it was like, right, we're on. You know, Ross and I were separated. We went into that castle as individual players and had to pretend not to know each other. So we were immediately going into like game mode.
00:06:16:11 - 00:06:36:21
Dr Ellie Buckley
But I think, you know, if you remember my season, what happened is Ross met an old friend right on the driveway at the very, very beginning. And that really through both of us off because we had not predicted that scenario. So, I don't know, it was kind of yes, I did want to play the game and I wanted to win, but actually, there's so much to react to.
00:06:36:22 - 00:06:46:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
When you're in the castle, you're actually kind of more relying on instinct, and it feels more like you're trying to survive than trying to win. For those first few episodes, I would say.
00:06:46:09 - 00:07:02:15
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. So. So how's she going in having I'm assuming you did what Hannah Fry did and binge watched the entire series before you before you went in. Yeah. So what was the game plan and then why did that just, you know, why. Could you not just do that? Because instinct took over.
00:07:02:17 - 00:07:23:25
Dr Ellie Buckley
I think it was when I watched, back at all the previous seasons and things. And I was I was looking for kind of insight I could use. I mean, I understood psychologically this is a game of in-group, and it's a game of bonding and social reputation. And actually it's quite important to focus on bonding with your other players.
00:07:23:25 - 00:07:42:00
Dr Ellie Buckley
And the round table isn't just about finding traitors, it's also about who fits in the group and who people want to keep in the experience with them. And so I think I was like, right, well, I know this and now I just have to act on it. I just have to go in, try and make friends and survive.
00:07:42:01 - 00:07:50:07
Dr Ellie Buckley
Because I think especially as a faithful, it's a it's a game of survival right up until the finish. Because if you get out traitors early, more traitors. Rise up.
00:07:50:10 - 00:08:14:05
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah, yeah they do. It's like a whack a mole, isn't it? Yeah, TV whack a mole. I mean, somebody must put that forward, going to this sort of tribalism, this about alliance forming, about being around that round table. Yes. Were these alliances, were they built on trust or shared interests, or was it the need to belong somewhere now?
00:08:14:07 - 00:08:46:15
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. Education mind at this point starts to think about relatedness. Or what do you call it, self-determination theory. So Deci and Ryan, well-being and motivation, it's based on your autonomy, your competence and relatedness. You need these groups around to be able to to process, to be able to to do good learning, relatedness that need to feel connected and cared for by others if they were late comers who sort of particularly around the breakfast table, did they have to prove themselves?
00:08:46:17 - 00:08:51:29
Dr Brian Irvine
What was the trust? What was the shared interest that was going on?
00:08:52:01 - 00:09:21:24
Dr Ellie Buckley
I think well, because breakfast, you're walking in a different order every day. I mean, I don't think it makes a huge difference if you've had a few minutes with other players before. But what I would say is, if we look at the winners of our season, Rachel and Steven, they were both very personable people, very affable. They worked hard to bond with other players, and that really stood them in good favor for the game because they developed people who were quite loyal to them and ultimately defended them right up to the end.
00:09:21:28 - 00:09:35:16
Dr Ellie Buckley
So I think it was yeah, it was very much a game of like, can you build bonds with other players and will other people vouch for you? Probably because they feel close to you more than that, because they have evidence to kind of support one theory or another.
00:09:35:18 - 00:10:04:22
Dr Brian Irvine
So that's again, you know, this is the I o we, we think about education all the time. My hunch is this is talking about stuff like and when vendors. Oh, what do they call it. Peripheral participation. When you start off with something that's very low stakes and then sort of move towards the being the inside of the group, what were some of the low stakes things that you and Ross were doing at the beginning before you became, you know, a little bit more central?
00:10:04:24 - 00:10:07:05
Dr Brian Irvine
What was the first things.
00:10:07:07 - 00:10:29:07
Dr Ellie Buckley
I think, you know, from, from meeting the other players? It was really thinking about how can we get to know everyone else and how can we start to build bond to them? And Ross and I had gone in with this plan of let's go to separate groups, to separate social groups, and try and cover. Because there's so many players in the castle, it's very hard to bond with 21 other people at pace.
00:10:29:12 - 00:10:51:05
Dr Ellie Buckley
And so we were like, right, we'll just we'll just work our way around the room and try and start building those friendships early on. So it was just trying to do the kind of trying to do what you would do. Typically when you were trying to get close to someone, asking people questions, showing an interest in them, just trying to be observant and learn about people and be responsive to them.
00:10:51:07 - 00:10:56:24
Dr Brian Irvine
And there is something to be said about going around and just telling everybody that they're lovely. Yeah, yeah. Really.
00:10:56:24 - 00:10:57:12
Dr Ellie Buckley
Does it.
00:10:57:12 - 00:11:19:15
Dr Brian Irvine
Really just oh, isn't it just just it's like, you know, special secret sauce just going and going, oh you're wonderful. You are just a good thing. Now, there was when Ross was banished and you no longer had that sort of buddy doing that kind of thing. How did you hold your position without tipping your hand?
00:11:19:17 - 00:11:40:01
Dr Ellie Buckley
Well, to be honest, I think Ross and I understood that we were very unlikely to make it through the entire game together. And so we'd prepared for that eventuality that one of us would go first and say, I was ready. I mean, because he had so much heat on him from the beginning, I kind of went, oh, he's not going to make it like this guy is getting managed.
00:11:40:04 - 00:11:51:18
Dr Ellie Buckley
So I was emotionally fairly ready for when he left. I kind of prepared myself and I was like, let's not cry at the round table. It's not helpful because then people go, why is she crying? She doesn't know this guy.
00:11:51:21 - 00:11:55:19
Dr Brian Irvine
You can always say, I've just got empathy. Yeah.
00:11:55:22 - 00:12:15:03
Dr Ellie Buckley
But I think I think after he had left, I mean, to be honest, they felt a bit lost. It wasn't. It was hard to even though we had talked about it in theory, I had definitely expected that we would have had more time in the game together and more time to kind of work collaboratively when we were under such pressure.
00:12:15:05 - 00:12:28:17
Dr Ellie Buckley
And so I definitely did feel a bit lost. And I went, oh, who am I going to talk to you now? Who am I going to throw theories against? You know, who who is my most trusted player in the castle now? Because you have to try and trust someone because you can't really play that game alone.
00:12:28:23 - 00:12:51:10
Dr Brian Irvine
No. Trust is is, you know, almost essential to all of these human relationships we have. Now, trust is one of those little bits which then sits against the deception bits that going on now, you were hiding your relationship with Ross? You know, it was a small secret compared to those people who were wandering around saying that they were faithful rather than traitors.
00:12:51:12 - 00:12:56:25
Dr Brian Irvine
Do you reckon small secrets are easier to carry than big lies?
00:12:56:28 - 00:13:30:27
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, I do you know what? Just thinking of personal, a personal perspective. I don't know, I think it might be more dependent on your personality and your individual differences. More on how well you are able to, you know, separate yourself from the lies or telling. And I think it's more about your individual psychology because again, from from my personal experience, I actually found it quite difficult and quite cognitively overloading to actually be misleading about my life, not show that I knew Ross.
00:13:30:28 - 00:13:48:04
Dr Ellie Buckley
I also hadn't told people about my career. I'd actually told all the other players I was a nanny. It didn't really make it to the final edit, but so I was actually having to kind of mislead people about my career and they would ask me questions and things like this. And actually that, that that was a heavy burden for me.
00:13:48:04 - 00:13:49:13
Dr Ellie Buckley
I did not like it.
00:13:49:15 - 00:13:54:12
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. As a former childminder, I mean, great choice of profession that you should have been. Oh, I.
00:13:54:18 - 00:13:55:24
Dr Ellie Buckley
Used to be as well.
00:13:55:25 - 00:14:13:04
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh, it's so much fun, isn't it? Yeah. We should all go and have to work with toddlers at some point, and either that I'll come and work in a university. It's fairly similar, with the whole idea about this sort of performance. How much of how much do you reckon everybody else was performing?
00:14:13:06 - 00:14:14:17
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, yeah.
00:14:14:19 - 00:14:35:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
Do you know what? It's difficult because you might read something as authentic. Yeah. But you never really know what people are thinking on the inside, do you? I, you know, when I think again about Stephen, put a lot of effort into his appearance and the outfits he wore every day, and that is who he is. He does care and it is important to him.
00:14:35:07 - 00:14:46:00
Dr Ellie Buckley
But it was also a good game playing technique because it kind of distracted people from thinking about other things, because we were all so excited about his beautiful constructed outfits.
00:14:46:03 - 00:15:07:28
Dr Brian Irvine
I love this idea of authenticity as performance. Oh I that's what I'm going to go away with. And now think about for the next couple of days. Yeah. That one's going to bury in my mind with thinking about the sort of duplicity side of stuff rather than the performance side. Well, maybe duplicity is a performance. And everyone had watched the series.
00:15:08:00 - 00:15:15:15
Dr Brian Irvine
Did you think that anyone arrived, particularly around the table, convinced they knew how to spot a traitor?
00:15:15:17 - 00:15:31:11
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. There were a lot of very overconfident players, I would say. And and it was very interesting. But we know from research, you know, confidence does not directly align with accuracy of judgment.
00:15:31:13 - 00:15:46:10
Dr Brian Irvine
And it's the work from bond and de Paulo. They did a meta analysis back in 2006 finding that people detect lies only about 54% of the time. That's nearly chance. How dare you be confident? Yeah.
00:15:46:12 - 00:15:57:04
Dr Ellie Buckley
Do you know, I understood going in that actually, the research doesn't back up the idea that you can spot a liar particularly well. But I still wanted to give it a go. Okay.
00:15:57:06 - 00:16:05:26
Dr Brian Irvine
I want to push you a little bit further on this. What is it about humans that makes us really bad at this kind of traitor spotting?
00:16:05:29 - 00:16:26:28
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, I think we make a lot of attribution error. So, you know, we'll observe a behavior, and we will make meaning from that, which is not always correct. And the reason we make a lot of attribution error is because we're often not corrected when we're wrong. So we might see something. Oh, that person turned their head that way.
00:16:27:00 - 00:16:44:07
Dr Ellie Buckley
That that means that they don't like me. And you may never learn the truth as to how they felt about you in that situation. And so you just go away with that formed opinion. And then we also have confirmation bias, don't we? So once we formed an opinion, we then start only kind of taking in information that confirms our preconceived notion.
00:16:44:07 - 00:16:51:04
Dr Ellie Buckley
And we reject information that might not align with what we already believe.
00:16:51:06 - 00:16:54:10
Dr Brian Irvine
So we've got confirmation bias and.
00:16:54:12 - 00:16:59:27
Dr Ellie Buckley
Attribution error and a bit of cognitive dissonance isn't it. You're rejecting information as well.
00:17:00:01 - 00:17:14:11
Dr Brian Irvine
It is. And these things they well lots of people leave. You can see these things physically. There's things that you've already mentioned, the sort of dismissing turning of the head. What are the physicality? Were people convinced that other people were doing?
00:17:14:13 - 00:17:35:01
Dr Ellie Buckley
I mean, you know, if I think back to our season. You know, Rachel is there watching for blink rates, but Rachel was a traitor, so let's not worry too much about that. I mean, you know, we can't we can look at things like I contact, but actually, if I refer to our season specifically Amanda, who was the detective, she had noticed that Jade.
00:17:35:04 - 00:17:53:24
Dr Ellie Buckley
At the table, I think. Well, it was a bit confusing because she'd either flushed or she'd gone pale and, you know, but either way, the kind of her face color had changed to show that she might be stressed in some way. And then Amanda was kind of using that as a rationale for YJ might be a traitor to form part of her argument.
00:17:53:24 - 00:17:59:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
So, yeah, I think, you know, looking for these physical changes to indicate stress was what people were trying to do.
00:17:59:24 - 00:18:22:27
Dr Brian Irvine
It's almost like an appeal to evidence, isn't it? And you came in saying, you know, you're using the evidence there, but yeah, we can't tell if evidence is really the evidence for what we're looking for. And maybe this segue ways nicely into one thing that I really want to have a big chat with you about. We've both worked with CRAE, the Centre for Research in Autism and Education.
00:18:22:29 - 00:18:47:23
Dr Brian Irvine
We know that neurodivergent folk have done really quite well in the car, so, I mean, people like Kat Burns or ADHD was almost undetected until the final, the one early suspicion. I don't know if you remember when Stephen Fry talks to her about napping, and they just played an absolute blinder for that one. But it did leave to this talk about neurodiversity, about diagnosis around the round table.
00:18:47:25 - 00:19:15:03
Dr Brian Irvine
Season one Aaron ADHD. He made it to the end and he says ADHD made him curious. Dan Bird was series three and was very close to identifying the traitors before he was banished, and he put it down to not following the crowd, the fact that he could stand there. So these tells these physicality, I contact regulating movement, flushing flat, straightforward delivery.
00:19:15:06 - 00:19:23:16
Dr Brian Irvine
They're also how many neurodivergent folk communicate. What does that mean for those that get banished?
00:19:23:18 - 00:19:48:12
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh I mean what does that mean for those that get banished? I mean, I think we see, you know, in the banishment, we obviously see that they're prone to a lot of bias. You know, people are making assumptions in a variety of ways about people and what, you know, aligns with being a traitor and what might be traitorous behavior.
00:19:48:18 - 00:20:06:28
Dr Ellie Buckley
I mean, I think if we look at society, we know that, you know, neurodivergent people, you know, like, do you struggle with other people's responses to how they might communicate and how they might socially interact? And, you know, that can be really challenging. Yeah.
00:20:07:00 - 00:20:21:01
Dr Brian Irvine
So that Milton's double empathy problem that both sides of the equation, neurodivergent or broadly neurotypical, they both mess it up. They both don't quite get the fact that everyone has their own distinct interior lives.
00:20:21:04 - 00:20:22:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah, very much so.
00:20:22:07 - 00:20:41:27
Dr Brian Irvine
Your research was based on autistic performers? Yeah. I love the fact that you put autism and performance and mentoring together. I did, I had a little flick through your thesis a year or so ago. Oh, it's very good. I highly recommend, if you get a chance, go online and do have a look. Don't say that about everybody's thesis.
00:20:41:27 - 00:20:59:05
Dr Brian Irvine
Particularly not mine. Mine just goes on and on. Now, your research found autistic performance struggled most with others perceptions. Did you see that dynamic play out in the castle? That it was the others perceptions? That other hard part rather than your own?
00:20:59:07 - 00:20:59:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, yeah.
00:20:59:24 - 00:21:20:29
Dr Ellie Buckley
Absolutely. Because, you know, I remember even when I was being accused of being a traitor occasionally by other players, and it was very frustrating to have your behaviour be aligned with being a traitor when you're like, you know, for for me, people were like, oh, you're so quiet, why are you being so quiet? And I was like, because I'm thinking because I don't know what to say yet.
00:21:20:29 - 00:21:47:13
Dr Ellie Buckley
Because this is an intimidating environment, not because I'm a traitor. Or like if I think about, you know, we had quite a few players who have ADHD. You know, we had Jessie and Jack and James and particularly James. He's really hyperactive and full of life and was throwing loads and loads of ideas out there. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion as to could he be a traitor trying to cause absolute chaos.
00:21:47:19 - 00:21:50:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
But as it turned out, no, that was just James.
00:21:50:29 - 00:22:09:13
Dr Brian Irvine
Just call the chaos. Yeah. Oh, I, I will say I was watching that series and I was just. I want to take lots of these people home. Yeah. You just looked like, so much fun together. It was brilliant. So with. So. Yeah, you've mentioned somewhere, you know, that there are these misunderstandings, this mismatch communication that runs both ways.
00:22:09:17 - 00:22:16:15
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. Now, how might the game look if it was designed with this mismatch in mind?
00:22:16:17 - 00:22:17:29
Dr Ellie Buckley
What do you mean by that.
00:22:18:00 - 00:22:23:25
Dr Brian Irvine
Could you do a traitor's that gave people time to think. Oh I would love that.
00:22:23:28 - 00:22:25:03
Dr Ellie Buckley
I would, I would love.
00:22:25:07 - 00:22:42:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
Some time to think because let me tell you, you've got you've got no time to think. But I think that's what makes the game probably dynamic. And interesting to watch is that people don't have time to sit back and analyse as much as they want to. And so it is a game of intuition and guessing, and you have to work on your instinct.
00:22:42:06 - 00:22:52:22
Dr Ellie Buckley
And that's what makes it interesting, because it's a microcosm of the way people behave in society a lot of the time. But yeah, I would have I would have loved more thinking time that.
00:22:52:22 - 00:22:53:18
Dr Ellie Buckley
Would have been, maybe.
00:22:53:19 - 00:23:03:04
Dr Brian Irvine
We should go and pitch a sort of monastic version. Where are we going to put everybody in a monastery, and you only have one encounter a day, and then you have to work it out over the next 3 or 4 weeks.
00:23:03:05 - 00:23:04:22
Dr Ellie Buckley
And you've got time with a.
00:23:04:22 - 00:23:05:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
Whiteboard or something.
00:23:05:27 - 00:23:07:18
Speaker 6
That'd be so cool. Yeah.
00:23:07:19 - 00:23:16:01
Dr Brian Irvine
I think some of us would do incredibly well on that one. So yes, just in case BBC is listening at this point, you know, just me and Ellie in here.
00:23:16:02 - 00:23:18:18
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah, I want.
00:23:18:20 - 00:23:19:07
Dr Ellie Buckley
To.
00:23:19:10 - 00:23:49:21
Dr Brian Irvine
Slow traitors. Oh, hell, you've even named it. That is just so cool. I love this idea of slow traitors. So with slow traitors, where would you find neurodivergent? Bringing joy. You already mentioned that. The wonderful chaos. So that joyful chaos that went on. But how does that get rewarded by the groups at times? How does thoughtfulness or exuberance get rewarded by the group, or is it always penalized?
00:23:49:23 - 00:23:50:18
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, yeah.
00:23:50:19 - 00:24:12:05
Dr Ellie Buckley
No. I mean, I think, you know, if you are exuberant and joyful, you know, I think that can stand you in good stead, you know, in the in the castle and in group settings. You know, we like, for example, Jessie, you know, also really beautifully cheerful ball of sunshine. And you know, that helped that was that, you know, she really bonded.
00:24:12:05 - 00:24:12:29
Dr Ellie Buckley
With the group and people.
00:24:12:29 - 00:24:37:21
Dr Ellie Buckley
Were really upset when when she got murdered. I think inside the traitors setting, it can be tricky because you're coming across as too faithful to nice. They'll murder you. But then if I think of autistic strengths as well, like, maybe, you know, aligning more with logical thinking and straightforward delivery and communication, that can be really helpful if people understand your communication style.
00:24:37:23 - 00:25:00:13
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. Oh, this is brilliant. This is the kind of stuff that we do at CRAE is finding the mismatches that happen all over the place, and then the joyfulness that can happen from them. So we talked a bit about the sort of more neurodiversity line coming in. I suppose this plays into how do we go about changing people's minds.
00:25:00:16 - 00:25:15:25
Dr Brian Irvine
So if there is a diverse group in the castle themselves, how do they get together to how did you help to change other people's minds? What moved votes around the round table? Was it evidence? Emotion?
00:25:15:28 - 00:25:26:27
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, this is tough. I mean, I think because you said. How did I. I don't know whether I was very convincing and did have much influence on other players voting behaviour, to be honest.
00:25:26:29 - 00:25:38:03
Dr Brian Irvine
But having watched it, I thought you did. Thank you. There was the kind of thing where you did sometimes come across as as the voice of reason.
00:25:38:05 - 00:26:00:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
That, well, thank you, that's very fine. But if I, if I think about those round table settings. I mean, when I think about, for example, Rachel, who was a traitor, so she was actively trying to control the narrative and push other narratives, you know, around the table to, to get players to vote faithfuls out. I mean, it was about being confident in her opinion.
00:26:00:23 - 00:26:22:24
Dr Ellie Buckley
I think that was that was a huge factor. It was it was actually just being confident enough to say something convincingly and kind of hold, hold your place there. I, I think also what has a major impact on people's voting behaviour is wanting to stay part of the in group and wanting to stay safe inside the safety of what the majority of people are doing.
00:26:22:25 - 00:26:36:15
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah. And so I think people are listening to, you know, who might be the more natural leaders in the group, you know, the arguments they're putting forward. And then they will align because that's a safety behaviour to try and align with the group leaders.
00:26:36:17 - 00:26:54:04
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh, it is the one thing that we all need is just to feel safe and secure before we can do any sort of thinking, before we can even change our mind, we need to feel safe and secure. Now. Was there times where you changed your mind over other people maybe being a traitor or not? Or what were you?
00:26:54:06 - 00:26:57:13
Dr Brian Irvine
Did you feel that your thoughts were fairly locked in from the beginning?
00:26:57:17 - 00:27:17:18
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, I was I was concerned, you know what? I was just so confused. I found it really hard to actually sit and make a decision around anyone, because I think because I was, you know, come from this academic background. I'm used to being able to gather evidence, think about something carefully, and then and then present a rational argument as to why I'm making that decision.
00:27:17:18 - 00:27:43:16
Dr Ellie Buckley
But you don't have time in the castle. You have, you have to go and kind of gut feeling and your best guess and, I'm trying to think, I think for these first few round tables, I was absolutely trying to listen to what other people were saying, because ultimately there were confident voices in the castle. And I made a classic mistake of assuming that their confidence meant that they knew something I didn't.
00:27:43:17 - 00:27:53:10
Dr Ellie Buckley
They were more accurate in their analysis than I was. And actually, you know, watching it back, I was like, oh, classic. Like, why did I listen to these people? Yeah.
00:27:53:12 - 00:27:56:09
Dr Brian Irvine
If somebody says they know what they're on about, they probably don't.
00:27:56:10 - 00:28:20:22
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah, absolutely. And it was a real moment of learning for me to understand that I will defer to a confident voice. And I was like, wow, you've got to kind of, you know, you know, hold your hold yourself down and like, you know, stick with your own thinking. But I think later on in this kind of later episodes, I just tried to form opinions on the evidence I did have, which was which is pretty weak inside the traitors, to be honest.
00:28:20:23 - 00:28:34:24
Dr Ellie Buckley
You are going on small behaviors like I remember, for instance, I voted out what I helped to vote out a player called Sam. He had run for a shield in a mission, and it just felt traitorous because of the way he'd done it. And then obviously, he was.
00:28:34:27 - 00:28:37:15
Dr Brian Irvine
So he needed a shield to feel safe.
00:28:37:18 - 00:28:43:16
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yes, he needed a shield to feel safe. It didn't make rational sense to the rest of us. And then he got vanished.
00:28:43:18 - 00:28:52:10
Dr Brian Irvine
Sam. Sam, our heart still goes out to you. All right, Ellie? You mean how did you deal with feeling mean about these things? Because you're not a mean person.
00:28:52:12 - 00:29:10:18
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah, I didn't like it, like, I think I think that's why you see such high emotion around those round tables. And I think when you watch it as a view, I remember, I think, why is everyone crying? Come on, it's only a game. But actually the reality is, is the days are long, you are tired, you are stressed.
00:29:10:18 - 00:29:21:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
It's not pleasant to make mistakes about people and upset your fellow players, but it is a game that naturally creates that tension because you have to vote someone else. And so yeah, it was tough.
00:29:22:00 - 00:29:40:05
Dr Brian Irvine
If I was trying to start a cult, it's the kind of thing that I would do. I'd get the more remote sleep, deprive them and then put them against each other. Yeah, it's a perfectly designed mess for you all to be in. And I will say you did just brilliantly well in the mess. I was really proud of you when you were in there.
00:29:40:06 - 00:29:48:07
Dr Brian Irvine
Thank you. You were a psychologist. You were in the castle. You weren't publicly a psychologist. Or did you disclose it at some point?
00:29:48:09 - 00:30:06:04
Dr Ellie Buckley
No, I told no one anything. I just told them I was a nanny. Because I thought, I don't want people to make assumptions. And also, you know, I understand the reality is I'm a psychologist through research and through academia. And I was like, I'm going to try and bring in psychological thinking into this game. But, you know, I can't read.
00:30:06:05 - 00:30:14:13
Dr Ellie Buckley
Well, no psychologist can read someone's mind. But like, I, you know, I don't want people to make assumptions about my abilities. And so I thought it would be safer to stop to mention it at all.
00:30:14:15 - 00:30:20:28
Dr Brian Irvine
So you weren't tempted just to go? I'm the psychologist. Trust me when I say it was them.
00:30:21:00 - 00:30:30:19
Dr Ellie Buckley
No, because I wasn't very confident in my own opinions about who was a traitor. So I certainly didn't want to influence other people to make a mistake as well.
00:30:30:22 - 00:30:46:18
Dr Brian Irvine
Now, I know outside because, you know, when we were watching it, I look after the CRAE website and as soon as you were there, we had a sudden spike in people trying to find out who you were, what you had studied. The fact that on the traitor's website, it came up saying that you were a chartered psychologist.
00:30:46:21 - 00:30:55:03
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. All this sort of linked in sleuthing that went on. I mean, your LinkedIn page must have been inundated as soon as it went there.
00:30:55:05 - 00:31:13:25
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yes. I mean, I think it just it speaks to the passion of the fans. You know, I think because the show is so exciting, because it has all these secrets. People were just very excited to try and, you know, dig, dig out the secrets of, you know, did contestants know each other? And this and the other. It was quite intense.
00:31:13:27 - 00:31:31:10
Dr Ellie Buckley
You know, they went back into my LinkedIn from like four years ago and things like that, like people, you know, there are entire Reddit threads dedicated to, you know, finding out all the information they can about all the players. But, you know, I do understand it's exciting to be presented with the secret to try and uncover.
00:31:31:11 - 00:31:42:19
Dr Brian Irvine
It is it is what is it in our human being, this that makes that secret such an itchy thing that we need to find out what's the function, what's the evolutionary function of these kind of things?
00:31:42:22 - 00:31:59:28
Dr Ellie Buckley
Well, I think humans are naturally curious by by design, by by evolution, aren't they? I think it's beneficial for us to, you know, want to find out information, want to understand others, you know, to find out what's salient and what's important. And, you know, we're wired to be curious.
00:32:00:00 - 00:32:20:05
Dr Brian Irvine
Not just to be curious, but to have our own in groups and outgroups. And I think that's the joy of the traitors. It sets itself up as one big in-group, but it's got a fracture at its heart. Absolutely. And I will name that fracture. Her name is Claudia. Yeah, well, we know what you're doing.
00:32:20:07 - 00:32:34:24
Dr Brian Irvine
This whole ability to, I suppose, reflect upon our place within groups. Do you think, as a psychologist, that your skills actually helped? Or was it just you hope that they helped?
00:32:34:27 - 00:32:54:06
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, I mean, if I'm to be frank, I think I think it was I was hopeful that they would help. And in reality, I think I was just overthinking everything in that game, which resulted in me not taking much action. I think it's absolutely a game of instinct and intuition, and actually you have to go in and you have to be bold.
00:32:54:09 - 00:33:05:21
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah. So but you know what? If I'd had a Professor Hannah Fry's mathematical theory about how to spot a traitor is that that seems like it might work.
00:33:05:23 - 00:33:14:01
Dr Brian Irvine
So updating priors you're doing your boolean logic for. Yeah. Yeah, it's a clever way of thinking about it, isn't it? Because it takes away the emotionality.
00:33:14:04 - 00:33:30:16
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah. And also, you know, I did understand and we know that the research, you know, doesn't show that people are effectively able to to spot liars. You know, so I kind of knew that it was it was going to be luck and chance that saw me through that game.
00:33:30:18 - 00:33:56:29
Dr Brian Irvine
I will say is, when I found out about this statistic about lying 5 or 6 years ago, I suddenly got really paranoid about everybody. The fact that I can't spot a lie to save my life. In fact, I'm probably worse than chance. Yeah. How do we go about living together outside of the castle with this ability that we can't spot lies?
00:33:57:01 - 00:34:08:29
Dr Brian Irvine
There's a big metaphysical question now. This is wisdom for the people that are listening. How do we live with the fact that actually, if you as a teacher, you don't know where the kids are lying to you or not?
00:34:09:01 - 00:34:39:11
Dr Ellie Buckley
Well, I think that, you know, part of it is just acceptance that it's probably a fool's errand to try and, you know, spot lies because, yeah, like like we understand you're unlikely to be able to spot lies effectively all the time. Although if you know someone well, you know, you may know their towels and you may be able to spot when they're lying a bit more effectively, I think it's maybe more that we should focus on promoting a, you know, a culture of honesty and truthfulness, and we have to show how it's done and live by example.
00:34:39:11 - 00:34:42:28
Dr Ellie Buckley
And then hopefully people will see that that's that's the nicer part for all of us.
00:34:43:00 - 00:34:52:07
Dr Brian Irvine
You're brilliant. You know, you're wonderful. I will say on tells, you know Ross really well. Yeah. Can you tell us what Ross's tells would have been?
00:34:52:10 - 00:35:21:19
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, do you know. What it would? What made me laugh is when the traitors were picked at that first round table, Ross was really sweaty, and I was like, why is he so sweaty? Like, why is he stressed? Because, you know, like, he. And actually, I think he was just hot. And. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But he also thought I was a traitor in the game because he was like, you're being quite different to the way you behave in normal life, and I.
00:35:21:22 - 00:35:24:02
Dr Brian Irvine
Cause you're pretending he doesn't exist. Yeah, exactly.
00:35:24:03 - 00:35:37:01
Dr Ellie Buckley
Exactly. And I was obviously, I was dealing just, like, with a lot cognitively. So I think I was quite quiet and quite reserved compared to how I normally am. So yeah, it was really interesting. We both thought the other one might be lying and we were wrong.
00:35:37:04 - 00:35:52:20
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh, bless. So, if you if you had to say to Ross and you sit around the breakfast table, Ross, tell me what my tells are. Do you think he would be able to tell you what your tellers are? Or have you been playing poker for far too long?
00:35:52:22 - 00:36:11:04
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, no. Well, I mean, I don't really lie to us, but I think, yeah, he would be able to tell because. Because I think I don't, you know, I'm not particularly comfortable with lying. I don't know why I asked to be a traitor. I think I do become quite awkward and and kind of reserved because I don't want to make a mistake.
00:36:11:04 - 00:36:14:07
Dr Ellie Buckley
So I think he'd noticed because he'd be like, why have you gone so weird?
00:36:14:12 - 00:36:36:11
Dr Brian Irvine
See, this is why I try and be awkward all the time so nobody ever notice it. I can get away with it all. So part of this self-knowledge that you had going into the traitor's room. Yeah. Do you think that the other faithfuls had that degree of self-knowledge? I was really hard to guess that kind of stuff.
00:36:36:16 - 00:36:42:19
Dr Brian Irvine
Or would they have spotted themselves? Does that make sense?
00:36:42:22 - 00:37:03:07
Dr Ellie Buckley
I think some of them did. I think, you know, like, I, I think when I look at the people who were successful in the game, you know, particularly if I come back to Steven and Rachel again, I think we did have a good understanding of themselves and how to operate. And like Rachel in particular, you know, I think she really managed to separate like herself, you know, and stayed true to herself.
00:37:03:07 - 00:37:16:09
Dr Ellie Buckley
And she was able to be friendly to everyone and still work very effectively as a traitor. So, yeah, I think she showed that she probably does have a really good way of managing her own emotions and self-knowledge.
00:37:16:11 - 00:37:31:22
Dr Brian Irvine
It seems like they managed to pick a really good group for your cohort. You seem to well, get on within parameters. Does that make sense? Yeah, because you could never quite let it all down and be authentic. And also, they were sleep depriving you.
00:37:31:24 - 00:37:39:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
And everyone was so nice as well. I think that's it was a really nice season. Like, I think everyone was as kind as they could be. And and that was really lovely.
00:37:39:27 - 00:38:01:23
Dr Brian Irvine
It made it great watching. They were a case. I go across the pond and watch the American traitors. And it doesn't often seem like maybe it's just my British eyes that maybe I expect sort of that the reserve stiff upper lip. It was there something, though, about maybe a strategy of kindness that people were putting on?
00:38:01:25 - 00:38:22:28
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, yeah, I think I think, you know, I imagine pretty much everyone entered that castle understanding that group bonding and, and, you know, again, being part of the in making friends and alliances is really important in this game, you know, especially if you are a faithful. And so I think everyone was working hard to to try and bond with each other.
00:38:23:00 - 00:38:51:16
Dr Brian Irvine
So coming back to the whole bandura stuff that we started with, we've talked about sort of vicarious experience, how you all the, the faithful try to watch the faithful beforehand before they go in. We've talked a little bit about the way that persuasion happens and how people change their minds. We talked a little bit about the sort of psychological states, you know, particularly if you're feeling the guilt being pushed upon you when it shouldn't have.
00:38:51:18 - 00:39:00:11
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah. To get to mastery, to getting to know how to be a good, faithful. Have you got any advice for the next generation?
00:39:00:13 - 00:39:25:19
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, well, I think, you know, I would I would go back to Professor Hannah Fry's, you know, approach if she'd be able to apply as a faithful and I'd be like, try not to get try not to let your emotions lead your decision making, because ultimately, your desire to to belong in the group and to stay safe may override your ability to actually functionally spot who might be a traitor.
00:39:25:23 - 00:39:39:23
Dr Ellie Buckley
And so it would probably be better to try and be quite logical about it. But you also have to survive because you don't want the rest of the group to banish you. So you're going to have to bring a little bit of emotion into the game to make sure that other people like you enough to want to keep you.
00:39:39:25 - 00:40:01:12
Dr Brian Irvine
There is something that the older I get, and as the years go by, I start to think we're basically just Labrador puppies, but we just want to run around and be helpful and be liked and sort of what, wander up to people just, yeah, this is good. And there is something about a game like The Traitors which plays upon our innate kindness and helpfulness.
00:40:01:15 - 00:40:05:24
Dr Brian Irvine
And that's why sometimes I sit in judgment of Claudia.
00:40:05:27 - 00:40:28:00
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah. And do you know what? I think that's exactly why the missions are there, aren't they? Because ultimately, the missions provide opportunity for the players to work together as a group and help each other, but it makes those round tables much more difficult, because if someone helped you earlier in the day in a mission, you're much less likely to want to then come at them with an accusation.
00:40:28:03 - 00:40:29:03
Dr Ellie Buckley
Yeah.
00:40:29:05 - 00:40:52:21
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh, deeply. Deeply. Now, we've had a big, long, rambling talk. We talked about how you came to the castle. We talked about tribalism. We've talked about the psychology of deception. We've talked about how you go about changing people's minds. We talked about neurodiversity in the castle, I suppose. Just to close and to wrap this up for if you could say one thing for season, I can't remember what season we're on now seems.
00:40:52:24 - 00:40:55:09
Dr Ellie Buckley
To be season five. That was five.
00:40:55:11 - 00:41:03:21
Dr Brian Irvine
Yeah, for season five. What is it that you would say to people walking into that just as your psychologist hat on? What would you say to them?
00:41:03:23 - 00:41:23:03
Dr Ellie Buckley
Oh, I mean, I think I would say have fun, but and, and just go with your gut and follow your intuition because ultimately there is so much in that experience that is outside of your control. I think practicing acceptance is really important.
00:41:23:05 - 00:41:33:04
Dr Brian Irvine
Oh, isn't it important for everything? Just practicing acceptance. I like that one. That is a beautiful and wonderful moment to end on. Ellie, thank you ever so much for your time here.
00:41:33:06 - 00:41:36:21
Dr Ellie Buckley
Thank you. It was a fun time.
00:41:36:23 - 00:41:51:22
Dr Brian Irvine
If you're listening to us on Apple or Spotify, we'd really prefer it if you could please, please give the IOE Insights podcast a rating. Five stars would be nice. Of course I've been, and I will continue to be Dr Brian Irvine, thank you so much for listening.
00:41:51:24 - 00:41:56:03
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