Just(ice) joking with Hayden Kristal

Show Notes

Prepare your diaphragm for some deep belly laughs! Comedian and intersectional accessibility educator Hayden Kristal talks about the craft of writing a good joke, the need for comedy to "punch up" to prevent harm against marginalized communities, and how social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram have become key tools for content creators to reach wider audiences during the pandemic.

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Creators & Guests

Host

R.B. Brooks

Director of Programs, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

Producer

Justin Drwencke

Executive Director, Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity

What is Take the Last Bite?

Take the Last Bite is a direct counter to the Midwest Nice mentality— highlighting advocacy & activism by queer/trans communities in the Midwest region. Each episode unearths the often disregarded and unacknowledged contributions of queer & trans folks to social change through interviews, casual conversations and reflections on Midwest queer time, space, and place.

For questions, comments and feedback: [e-mail]

To support this podcast and the Institute, please visit sgdinstitute.org/giving

Host: R.B. Brooks, they/them, director of programs for the Midwest Institute for Sexuality & Gender Diversity

Cover Art: Adrienne McCormick

Hayden:
If anybody’s thinking about becoming a horse girl, I recommend it. Horses are a fantastic pet if you’ve ever wished your bicycle could make shitty decisions.

R.B.:
Hey, Hello, y'all. This is R.B. and welcome back. That self proclaimed horse girl you just heard from is comedian and intersectional accessibility educator Hayden Kristal. And on today's episode, I had the opportunity for a couch chat with Hayden, where we talked about the craft of writing a good joke, the need for comedy to punch up in order to prevent harm against marginalized communities. And we talked about how social media, especially TikTok and Instagram, have served as vital tools for content creators, especially for marginalized communities to reach a broader audience during the pandemic. Prepare your diaphragm for some deep belly laughs, because you're going to need it during this episode of Take the Last Bite.

[Music Playing]

Y'all we cannot do this. We cannot be these stereotypical Midwesterners. Please eat the rest of this food.

We just have these conversations every day with people like this is exhausting. I don't want to do this anymore.

Why can't we be in space with hundreds of other queer and trans folks and having these necessary conversations?

I don't know who you are, but we're going to talk by the potatoes for five minutes

Because aesthetic is the only thing keeping my dysphoria at bay. I'm broke all the time, but I look amazing.

Definitely going to talk about Midwest Nice and if that's as real as it wants to think it is.

Midwest nice is white aggression. That's what it is.

[End Music]

R.B:
All right, fam, we can get into it. We're freshly fed. I'm a little comatose, but it's been maybe many hours since we've eaten because we've been prep talking for, like, 3 hours before sitting down on my office couch to have this conversation. So why don't we start off with you talking about who you are in a nutshell?

Hayden:
I'm Hayden. I am a public speaker and stand up comedian. I talk about intersectional accessibility or broadly, how do we make our resources the most available to the widest range of whole, complex, multi dimensional people and part of what I talk about and focus on not on the comedy side is intersections that we don't think about when we talk about intersectionality. So parts of us that make up who we are and influence how we understand and perceive things that aren't necessarily connected to a marginalized identity, things that intersect with our other identities in ways that we don't talk about in traditional discussions of intersectionality, but how they shape our world view and our experience and the way we navigate spaces and how those identities in the intersections can create barriers to access in ways that we don't necessarily think about. Is that what you were going for? I was on TV.

R.B.:
So you've got, like, five dozen hats that I think we can talk about, but that feels high level and, like, a good summation of how you approach probably all those roles. And I feel like that also is how you and I kind of came into each other's ecosystem, which we were talking about earlier, which, like I said, I can't pinpoint exactly like when you and I met face to face and or when you and I met under circumstances that were not about how an event that I was putting on did not meet appropriate and legal standards and accessibility legal standards. So that being said, that is how you and I came into each other's ecosystem, is you doing your GaySL workshop. Has it always been the GaySL workshop, or did you have, like, it's always been that's fine. So your GaySL workshop that you've presented at MBLGTACC for eight years? Yeah, just a few.

Hayden:
I started when I was twelve, and now I'm a hot, thriving 20 year old on TikTok.

R.B.:
Hot and thriving. So that's kind of been like how I came to know you and how your relationship with MBLGTACC and the Institute kind of came about. But that's not your pigeonhole. Like, that's not the only thing you do, which is what else I want to talk about, obviously. But I'm curious if you do want to talk a little bit about just like the experience of doing that workshop in the Midwest for a little bit, and why that was where you started with doing professional presenting, because now that's, like, your full time job is professional speaking. Is that like the launch pad?

Hayden:
MBLGTACC was the launchpad, yeah. That was my first time ever doing anything like that. And what I did eight years ago was like a very baby, proto version of what I do today. And I think, to be honest, and I don't talk about this when I talk about speaking things, but I do when I talk to other comics. I think if I had known that you could just go do open mics and do stand up like, I wouldn't be a public speaker. I think that if I had known that you could just go like, I love performing. And I think that had I known that you could just go do that, I would have just gone and done. I mean, I'm obviously very happy with who I am, and I love the fact that I get to perform in a way that has an impact, in a way that's meaningful and contributory to my community. But I wouldn't be doing anything that I was doing if it wasn't for MBLGTACC and having that platform and the ability to flex those muscles and be on stage and realize that that's what I love doing. I wouldn't be presenting if it wasn't for MBLGTACC and I wouldn't be doing, I was already working full time as a public speaker when I started doing stand up, and I didn't know it when I started. But what I had been doing was just like, stand up with a thesis statement, which is what GaySL is. I actually want to pitch GaySL to, like, a fringe festival as, like,a one person show because it is funny and weird. It is art of some kind, outsider art.

Yeah. If it wasn't for MBLGTACC, I never would have ended up where I am. And I like where I am and what I'm doing. I wouldn't want to do anything else. And there are certain people where you're just like, it's good you're doing that thing that you're doing because I don't know what we, as society would do with you otherwise. And, like, I have an uncle in the military and you meet him and you're like, yeah, you are exactly what I envision. And I cannot picture, like, you could never work at, like, a Chuck E. Cheese. Do you know what I mean? I feel like I'm one of those people where it's like, it's a good thing you found what you're doing because I literally don't know what else you would do with you.

R.B.:
Well, I think what you're doing is such like a departure from what you think of. I feel like maybe outside of queer circles. Anyway, when you say professional speaker, right? Like, I feel like you get this Wolf on Wall Street Life Coach-esque, hype man, professional speaker and, like, you do the professional speaking circuit. Now you've got this stand up comedy venture. You're also an aspiring spokesperson for the Duluth Aquarium. You study something very different than what you're doing now.

Hayden:
I would give it all up to be a spokesmodel for the Duluth Aquarium, which, if they hear this, I'm still interested in working with you. Covid messed that up, but I'm on board still. But, yeah, people ask me all the time, like, are you a motivational speaker? And I'm like, I hope that people do something with the information I give them. I hope that they act on it. But the point is not to be motivational. I hope they are motivated to do something. It would be a bummer if I just did all that and they were, like, neat and then didn't change anything that they did. Or, people think of, like, Hillary Clinton getting paid, like, $250,000 to speak for a bank. Funny enough, I’m speaking for a bank, that's the virtual.

R.B.:
That's the twist.

Hayden:
Yeah. That's the twist. I think that people don't think of, like, young people. Or I would say, like, I don't necessarily come across as somebody who is. And I say this in the least, like, not as a joke. I don't always come across as somebody who would seem like a learned professional all the time in this conversation. So I guess I just don't think of somebody I don't think of myself as what I would imagine a lecturer to be. You know what I mean? Even although it's my job. Like, if you said somebody was, like, did professional college and corporate speaking, I am not what I think of when I hear that. Right.

R.B.:
So then you kind of started with the venture of doing the workshops, which I think is a specific type of speaking, right. Even at the conference, that's a certain venue, even though it's college students. And so you can be at least I think maybe more casual or like, off the cuff. You can cuss like all these other things that are already a departure from like.

Hayden:
Well, so here's the thing that I've been learning because I've been transitioning into doing more corporate work, which any businesses listening, I love doing corporate work. And before I started doing corporate work, I had this kind of I mean, it's the same thing where I say, I don't think of myself as being like what we think of a speaker as being. I found that the same energy, obviously the energy that I bring. I am more casual. I do cuss. I joke. I tell jokes within the workshop. It's very conversational. It's not get on a stage and talk at people. But I think that's transition. I do a similar style when I do corporate events, and I think that it may have been born out of starting as a college student and working with college students, but I think that that has become or is or was wherever it's rooted, is a communication style and has become kind of a deliberate choice in terms of how I approach educating people and as like a tactic of communication to keep it that way. So very well may be born out of the fact that it started with colleges. colleges have been my bread and butter. We were just talking about how many colleges I've done. I buy a pennant and every school that I do, which started as a cute thing when I was invited to speak at like, one or two colleges, and I thought it would be a cool thing. But now there's hundreds of them. So I have hundreds of these little felt flags for schools that I didn't go to. So it's like, what am I supposed to do? But it's like a chicken and egg thing. I do think it's an effective communication style, but it is very different than I think what other people are doing.

R.B.:
Which I think speaks to what is the expectation on education. And I think it's important as an educator here, too. I've been to trainings that are maybe dry or just very clerical or just not very exciting or entertaining and even talking about how college students experience lectures or the classroom. Right. Like they want things that are interactive. They want things that are dynamic. They want things that are hands on. So just like, how much are you going to retain or how much are you going to remember about what might be a required training depending on the environment? If it's not something that's memorable.

Hayden:
Right. I have rabid ADHD, and so I feel like I want to create stuff. I want to create stuff. I can't do this if I'm bored by myself. I'm like a little parakeet, just making noises at myself to keep myself entertained. But like you said, I wear a lot of different hats. I do a lot of different things. But the common thread of everything that I do is communication. I talk about what I love about comedy is that for a joke to be successful, it's like I see something in a weird way. I have this perception of the world that is a little bit off, a little bit skewed through this little bit of a warped lens. And if I tell you that if I tell a joke and you laugh at it, that means that you've understood my perspective exactly in the way I do that I've communicated that to you exactly the way that I've experienced it and that we're able to connect there. So that's what I like. It's like highwire communication with comedy. It's like, I think this is funny. This is something that I've noticed. Can I convey that to you in a way that makes you understand my perspective, which is what speaking is, too. And particularly speaking about what I speak about in my lived experiences and recognizing the lived experiences of other people and teaching empathy. It's the same thing. It's just different. It's just different jokes. I guess it's just different bits. This is how I experience things. And the laughter is the confirmation that you're understanding. So I feel like for me in teaching, laughing is really good feedback. And have I communicated this thing that I want to communicate in the exact way that I intended? Yeah. Because if I write a joke and if it lands, laughter is usually really honest. People don't laugh at jokes if they aren't like, you know, when a joke bombs, I'm sure everybody listening is not funny. So everybody knows no. When a joke bombs, people know. And it's very honest, immediate, like instinctual feedback about whether or not the thing that I'm saying is connecting with you.

R.B.:
Yeah. I think, too. Right. Because I've seen your workshop or at least snippets of it multiple times now. And I think another breaking of convention is that when some folks maybe go to a training or a class, they don't know if they're allowed to laugh. Right. Like, even if there is a joke, it might be like cautious laughter because you're in an environment that is being presented as like, this is serious or this is required, or this is something that you have to do to meet your degree requirements. So it tightens things up. Maybe at least I think the way that you do your signature workshop breaks that convention, and it invites folks in to say, like, we can be real people in this space. And I'm going to give you really vital information that you came here to learn.
Hayden:
Or, part of the thing I like about corporate stuff is that when I do college stuff, it tends to be the groups that bring me tend to self-select out to be people who are already sold, who are already on board with social justice. When I do corporate stuff, it's mandatory. Sure. I like having it be entertaining because I feel like it helps get buy-in from people who don't necessarily buy in. I think it creates a little bit of room for vulnerability and for giving what I have to say, a chance to actually listen to it. If you're waiting for a joke, you know what I mean. It's like you're processing what I'm saying. So even if you don't necessarily agree or you're not necessarily interested, at least I'm getting you to take the words in and think about them. And I feel like if you can get people to laugh about this, it's like we were talking about this earlier. Not everybody has had the privilege to be educated and have social fluency in social justice spaces. And I feel like people are so afraid of making mistakes that it prevents people from wanting to learn. Like, if you're so afraid of saying something offensive, and the hard part about that is that it specifically targets people who mean, well, if you mean, well, you don't want to say something, but if you don't have access to that information, then you don't know and you're just not going to ask. So I feel like creating an environment where it's okay to laugh and joke. I think it takes out some of the tension of misstep with words.

I mean, I love words. I'm a joke writer. I love writing. I love words. And I love talking about linguistics and the meaning and specificity and word choice. But I think that making jokes, it kind of takes away some of the power and the sharpness that we feel our words have like, there's a lot more flexibility.
R.B.:
Yes. I think two things can be true, right. Like words do have power, and especially queer and trans. Folks like words can be access points into understanding deeper senses of self accessing, connectivity with larger communities. And, something I was telling you earlier is that last month, my partner and I went to go see John Waters, who, like, on paper some of the ways that he phrased things and some of the things that he said if we were in certain spaces, people would be totally unhappy. Right. And I kind of felt the rub, too, in certain places. And that's not to say that I didn't find the content really funny and that there were some really valuable things out of this monologue, which was kind of part comedy because he's funny. But then also talking about his career with filmmaking and what you and I were kind of talking about with that is that we can look at someone like John Waters, who's in his 70s who says things like “the trans,” which isn't ideal. But to also look at the things that he's done where I was telling you that two days before that gig he had been at a grand opening of two multi stall gender neutral bathrooms at an art Museum named after him because he's like, I want bathrooms named after me, which is totally like on brand John Waters.

Hayden:
It is. It's fantastic. But I feel like when you said “the trans” earlier, we both laughed because it's an awkward way to phrase things. But I think part of why joking works in this context, in educating and social justice. I feel like if you're setting it up that I'm going to phrase things awkwardly deliberately, it makes it okay for people to do it accidentally. It makes it okay for people to be experimental and use the language that they have, even if they don't know if it's 100% correct, because I'm up at the front of the room and I've deliberately set the tone that I will be saying goofy stuff, and I'm still respected. I still know what I'm talking about, and I'm still a part of the conversation. And I think it's just that's totally that we're not looking for perfection. We're not looking for rigidity and seriousness, and I think it gives you a little bit more freedom to setting a precedence of goofiness even in serious topics. I feel like it gives people who need to learn who are there, who have the most to learn and want to learn the most and to grow the most. It gives them permission to do that in a way that's safe or that feels safe.

R.B.:
I feel like John Waters is not someone who's going to necessarily reject being told and right, like, he might have a counter offer to be like, I understand where you're at and here's my life experiences totally of his own queerness, which I think is precedent setting. We talked about that, too. There's things over the course of his life that broke a lot of conventions about sexuality and gender and queerness, and that's not going to be everybody's possibility model for their shade of queerness. And he opened a lot of doors for a lot of, like other people, as far as the type of comedy or the type of raunchiness that he has done through his certain medium, being film in a similar way as the medium for you being comedy and professional speaking and kind of a slew of other things kind of scrambled in between. Right? Like the medium, I think matters if the objective is to educate or to influence people or to motivate people. So I feel like a question that is helpful to kind of further contextualize, like, you started the workshop building your signature workshop in college doing that. You did a Ted talk kind of wasn't that also while you were in undergrad? So right around the same time, doing kind of workshop style Ted talk style speaking. When did the comedy and stand up stuff come into play? Because you said earlier that if you'd known that you could just hop on an open mic and play around with that. That might have been a medium that matched for you sooner.

Hayden:
So in retrospect, having worked, I started stand up, like straight stand up right after I graduated college. I started in September of 2016. That's a really obnoxious story, but it's an obnoxious story and preemptively. I'm sorry. I wanted to start doing stand up. When I graduated, I was paying for college. I was making a living doing speaking, and I had been thinking, I want to do comedy. So I entered this writing thing for Full Frontal with Samantha Bee, which is a political comedy show, and I was a finalist for that. It was like, out of 1000 people. And then they ended. I don't think they were expecting Trump to get elected. They're like, we have other shit to do, which is fine.

Anyways, I got this positive external feedback from this comedy writers room, and so I decided that I was going to go do this thing called Stand Up for Diversity, which is NBC. Does this, like, cattle call talent search every year where they prioritize diverse voices in comedy, which is really cool. It's not televised or anything. It's just something they do to find diverse talent. And if you look at the writer's room, they do a good job. And it's partly because they invest in doing stuff like this. I went for fun. I had no delusions that I was going to win. I just figured I'd never waited overnight in line for anything, and it would be like a fun thing to do. And it was far enough away that if it sucked, nobody I knew in real life ever had to know about it. So my first time on stage was for the audition, and then my second time was the callback. And then my third time was doing the showcase for NBC, which is ridiculous. It's a ridiculous thing.

But now I look back and I'm like, it makes sense because I didn't know how you tell how much time you've done on stage. I didn't know that I didn't know some of the nitty gritty comedy stuff, but I had been writing jokes and telling jokes in front of an audience for years. I had had hours and literally hours and hours and hours and hours and hours worth of stage experience by the time I did stand up. And a lot of the jokes that I had been doing before I started to stand up, I still do because I still think even from a professional comic standpoint now, these are still good jokes. It's just good writing. So I feel like the line is a little blurred in terms of, I don't feel like my speaking changed at all. I feel like the comedy grew out of that. And there are times. I mean, I do different jokes. My set is not the same, obviously, as I tend to be really apolitical in my comedy, which is like a weird thing that I've been thinking about a lot. So it's different sets, but the structure of jokes. There are jokes that I do in, like, GaySL and some of my other workshops that I do on stage because we're all workshop stuff that I'm working to tell on stage in a speech or workshop. Did that get a laugh? Great. Then I know that that works. It's just free stage time, baby. I think it just grew out of that. My style didn't really change, and I don't feel like, obviously, there is a thesis statement to speaking, but I feel like the way I present the jokes and the way I craft the jokes, it doesn't feel disconnected to me. It feels like the same thing. So I don't feel like there's two different sides of that. Or like I'm writing one or the other. It feels like the same writing process to me.

R.B.:
A joke that I formed throughout the pandemic that I only really shared with myself. Or I say, should a pattern I tracked. But that became a joke to self is that there were these fad things that I feel like folks picked up over the course of the pandemic. So I would say one of the earliest ones was sourdough starters. And then somehow at least in my circle. And maybe this was just like the queer trajectory of what the fuck did you get into during the pandemic? Plants was ubiquitous. But then I also felt like sometime a quarter of the way into the pandemic, I knew half a dozen people who were either getting or wanting to get their nipples pierced. Okay. And then somewhere along the way, several references to folks saying, I'm just going to start doing stand up comedy. And none of those folks, to my knowledge, currently are actively doing any kind of stand up. But what I feel like I tracked out of those little interactions with folks talking about at least aspiring to do stand up or talking about it was a lot of their material would probably be rooted in the trauma of being a queer and trans person, which would that I don't know where the question is in there, but that seemed to be a trend, right? Just like turning trauma in as fodder for content.

Hayden:
Yeah. Obviously that can work. The rough part with comedy is that the comedy that you see, comedy is supposed to look effortless, right? I mean, it's kind of like it's like listening to Adele or Demi Lovato, and you're, like, Every fucking note is perfect. Of course it is like they've been practicing this. And then it was produced in a studio by people who spend thousands of dollars and hours and hours like tweaking every little thing to get it exactly right. Like comedy is supposed to look so effortless. And I feel like people think that it is. And then you look at something like Bo Bornham's, what was it inside outside? I forgot what it was called. I loved it. I feel super disrespectful because I forget what the name is, but it was him unpacking his trauma about the pandemic in a way that's super funny. And I feel like obviously, that can work. Obviously, you can communicate trauma in a way that's funny and relatable to other people. I feel like a lot of people don't understand what a monstrous amount of effort and skill and time and practice goes into being able to do that, to be able to take something that's painful and upsetting and communicate it in a way that's funny. I feel like so many, and that is a frustrating thing. I see a lot of marginalized people wanting to share that trauma and communicate that trauma. And again, like I said, the beauty of comedy is that it is communicating, like when you laugh at my joke, I feel understood. I feel like I've communicated my experience to you, and that's the beauty of comedy. But it also takes such a deft practice hand, D-E-F-T, deft, to practice hand to be able to communicate that trauma in a way that allows people to laugh. And I feel like that is maybe kind of a sticking point or a place where a lot of marginalized people getting into comedy gets stuck because it doesn't seem like it would be such a, we don't see that part of it. We don't see people who are communicating their difficult experiences, like famous comics, writing and refining. We don't see the people who are doing that. The people will see ten years from now are doing that right now, like people who have Netflix specials in five years right now are out there bombing with jokes about personal stuff. The ability to take that to the next level is something that's so rare and has to be refined. I feel like people try it and don't get the response they want because, of course, you're starting anything. You're not going to be good at it. I wasn't good at speaking when I started. I think I had some natural skill, but it was something that had to be practiced and shaped and developed just like anything else. And so people get on stage. And I think particularly marginalized people get on stage telling jokes about things that are very personal and when they don't go well, not because they're inherently unfunny people or untalented, but just because they are new and that's a particularly hard place to go with comedy. The sting of bombing hurts and then it's with the additional like sharing something vulnerable, I think drives a lot of people away. So my advice for people who are starting in comedy is don't do that. I think comedy is not a forgiving medium. Sure. So my advice would be that if you want to use something as a way to communicate trauma and talk about it and express it. I think start in comedy if you want to, but don't let bad reactions to that or whatever. Don't let that dictate whether or not you continue. If it's something you really want to do, and if it's something you really want to do, maybe don't set yourself up for failure, disappointment or frustration by going there out of the gate. I see that a lot. I don't even remember what you asked. Oh, during the pandemic. Lots of people.

R.B.:
Yeah. I think I was just naming that folks are kind of looking at, and I don't know how, like, I don't want to say legit, but just like, how genuine. Maybe these folks who have named this I don't know. I feel like suddenly I had several folks. Yeah, I want to go do stand up. And in some ways, I'm like, well, maybe we just set up an open mic to have that be an outlet, right? Like, maybe it's not this thing kind of with you kind of having this be this emerging career trajectory for you that you want to build and build, whereas folks just kind of need an outlet and dry comedy. And there's maybe a difference. We just need, like, a cathartic open mic night for folks to be able to capture that experience.

Hayden:
And in the least, I mean, this in the most neutral way I can possibly say it. That's what slam poetry is for. I don't know. I dunk on slam poets a lot, but I don't like being vulnerable. I have difficulty with that. And I respect that slam poets are able to it's the same thing. It's all about communication and communicating perspective. And I feel like slam poets are able to do it with a lot more vulnerability. The trade off from that is that I feel like there's less rigid expectations, like there's expectations, like if you say something and it's supposed to be a joke and people don't laugh, then it's a failure and you get that immediate. If people don't laugh at it, then it's like that immediate public feedback. And I feel like maybe starting with spoken word or something. If it's not specifically stand up comedy that you want to do, because spoken word can be funny, but there's less of a pressure expectation. So if it's just communicating that you want to do a broader open mic might be a better place. And if you start writing stuff that works, then go start doing it as stand up. But I feel like comedy is you have to do it for the love of the art form. And I feel like for people who are able to share those personal stuff and communicate trauma in that way, I feel like it's born out of a real love for the art form and not the other way around. It's not born out of a need to communicate trauma. It's something that blossoms out of having a really long and in depth and comprehensive understanding of the art form and an appreciation for it and how it works and being able to use that. I don't think coming out of it or coming into it saying that that's the goal. And I feel like that was a lot of people during the pandemic. There's a lot of people who got into it who just love stand up, and we're like, fuck it. I'm going to try stand up. I feel like there's also a lot of people who are just, like, looking for a way to express themselves. And it sounds terrible to be like, don't do that. But it is not the most forgiving in terms of just getting stuff out there.

R.B.:
Well, we know how much Midwesterners love feedback, i.e. conflict via feedback. Right. I wonder, too. Right. That makes sense. Like it 100% does. I'm wondering, too, how much does it also have to do with, like, the audience, right. Like for marginalized comedians or writers? Right. Like the receptivity. If you're a queer and trans person, your audience is primarily not that right. Like the landing is going to probably be even like the landing strip is probably going to be even narrower. Right. Like to really kind of convey or not, tell me.

Hayden:
Your audience can't see it. But I'm smirking. So this is a conversation I've had with a lot of comics. So when I start my stand up, I say that I don't want to be pigeonholed as like a deaf comedian. I just want to be like a female comedian, which is a great joke. But also in comedy, there will be like, X comics. So like, there's gay comics and there's, like, you know what I mean? There are lots of people who do that and love it and are great at it. In comedy, we call it urban rooms, which are like Black rooms. And there are comics that make their whole career undoing, mostly urban rooms. And because they can speak to a Black experience that a white comic just can't. And Black audiences want to see that. And they have those moments, like where that is what they want to connect on and laugh about. And people make a whole career on that. The same is like there's gay comics. There's Christian comics. People can definitely find their niche. I feel like there's a difference between finding your niche and being dependent on something. Do you know what I mean? And I'm not saying this is like people who do specific rooms, like the people who are out there crushing are out there crushing it. But I feel like sometimes people who have one particular identity get, I don't know if I want to go there, but people get hung up on that one identity, and if it becomes all you talk about in a way that you can't or you aren't. But if it's all you talk about in a way that's not relatable to somebody who hasn't had that experience, then obviously that's not going to land.

And I think that the really gifted comics and communicators are the ones who can take that experience and communicate it in a way that it does appeal to a mainstream audience.

R.B.:
There's a clip on your Instagram because obviously, I did my homework because I haven't seen a lot of your comedy. I've primarily seen you in spaces where you're doing your workshop, which we've talked about is overlap. But there's a clip where you're telling a joke about applying to hang out with Koko.

Hayden:
I actually applied to work there at the Koko Foundation while I was in college, and they rejected me because I have hearing loss. They said, super picky, right? But they said that it was a liability issue because if the gorilla were to sneak up on me, I would not be able to hear it. Which, fair play? Probably. The audiologist doesn't test for that. So I don't know for sure. That's probably fair. But here's the thing. I was born like this. I've never known anything different. So I assume most of you are hearing, right. So I'll just pose this question to the room. What are you all going to do different if a gorilla sneaks up on you?

[audience laughter]

Hayden:
Yeah. So not to be like in the greatest writer who ever lived,

R.B.:
But that's an example of how.

Hayden:
Yeah, that's a joke about my

R.B.:
You made a bridge between.

Hayden:
Right. And that's not a joke that you have to be a part of the deaf community to understand. Like that's not something that you have to be, like, hard of hearing or to have gone through the struggle of being a hard of hearing or deaf person in a hearing world. To get that, I'm trying to think of an example of, like, a joke. It's like inside jokes are great. Like the jokes that you have with people who share that experience can be fantastic, but it's just never going to land with other people. And it's not that one is better than the other. It is just different. And I feel like it's something to be aware of going in. If you want to talk about your experience that is specific or is not mainstream. Yeah. I think it's something to think about, particularly because I think that and like what I talk about with intersectionality. It's not like that we all don't have those. Everybody has those experiences that are unique to them, and getting that across is like part of comedy. There's a comic, has a bit about finding a bag of porn magazines in the woods, and that's not a universal experience, but he communicates it in a way that makes us laugh. I think again, I think sometimes people who are discussing those marginalized. I see a lot of people who go in talking about experiences that are specific, having those jokes not land with the mainstream audience. And I think maybe interpreting that feedback in a way that it's not. It's not that you're not funny or that you're not good it's just that you have to know what jokes are going to work for what audience, and a lot of that comes with time and just not internalizing that.

R.B.:
Which, like knowing your audience regardless of what the medium is, whether you're writing, whether you're a filmmaker, just whatever the art form is, it's about knowing the audience. So if you're going, let's say that there's a comedian coming to a queer conference, right. Like, you know that certain references, certain language is going to land differently with that space. I think what I'm gleaning is there's a distinction and, like a craft to how to nestle, like, insider jokes or insider language in a way that doesn't close off access to the content from an audience. Right. And so if you're kind of just going to maybe an open mic at a space that's going to be a broader audience, right? Like, is there tact then involved with, I may make this reference still, but I have to tweak it. I guess my question, too, right, is just like whether it's for you or things that you've witnessed with other maybe marginalized joke writers and comedians, how do you maintain the integrity of your experience and your content in a way that doesn't portray it to, like, a cis het gaze or other folks kind of betraying it, to not lose the integrity of your experience and your content?

Hayden:
Well, I think it's what I talk about in my workshops. It's like I am a deaf queer person, and I consider myself an activist and I work in social justice. But that's not all of who I am, right? I have dogs. I have too many dogs, but dogs are something super relatable. So if I'm someplace where I know I perform a lot in the rural south, and I really like it. And I do great there. But we all like dogs. We all have dogs. You know what I mean? That's something that's true to my experience. And I don't feel like I'm leaving out. I don't feel like I'm being dishonest about who I am. But if it's just something that I know you're not going to get, I'm like, what's a gay culture thing. But I'm not going to make gay culture references at, like, a bar in wherever Alabama, because I know that's not going to hit. It doesn't mean that I'm lying about who I am. It just means, like I'm choosing to connect with you and communicate at points where I feel like you're going to understand what I'm saying, right? I feel like interpreting and being bilingual made me a better comedian. Sure. Because it's all about framing things so that people understand and finding points of connection and reference. And I think that that's an important part of comedy. I mean, that's the thing is you can perform for a variety of audiences. It's not just people who are exactly like, you know what I mean? And I think it's made me a more understanding person in being professionally and financially obligated to find points of connection with people that I maybe wouldn't do so just in terms of friendship.

R.B.:
Right. Well, I feel like too you opting to have a majority of your content be about the dogs or farming or rural living, does not suddenly make your content any less queer, even though you're not telling explicit queer jokes or doesn't make it any less deaf, culture related. If you're not explicitly telling jokes just by nature of who you are, right. So I think that makes sense.

Hayden:
I feel like it's less authentic for me to not do those. Do you know what I mean? I feel like it would be less authentic for me to only do things about these specific parts of my identity because it is a huge part of my identity. But it's not all that I am, right. And for some people who do the majority of their content, as long as that's true to who they are, I think that's great. You don't have to get into comedy to be like, I'm trying to think of somebody who's real famous and isn't like, hot shit right now. Oh, my God, you don't have to get into it to be Amy Schumer. You know what I mean? You don't have to get into it to have the Netflix special and to be in movies and shit. Most of my favorite comics don't because they're people who have a more niche audience than everybody in America. And their stuff really resonated with me, and it's not going to resonate with everybody. But that's the point of art is like that connection. And I feel like comedy feels like higher stakes, and I feel like it feels more personal because the art of comedy is in the connection with the audience. It's the only art form that requires an audience. You can sing a song by yourself and you can write a poem. But you can't tell a joke because the art of the joke is and how people respond to it. So if you say something alone in your room, I laugh at myself. Do you know what I mean? Is it a joke without an audience? It's the only thing you can't practice without an audience, for sure. And it's that immediate, honest, instinctual, guttural feedback that I think makes people take it really personally if it goes well or doesn't go well. And I think makes it feel like more of a personal art form in general.

I feel like it tends to get you don't hear these songs about music like you don't hear about people like gay, like musicians being like, your songs aren't gay enough. You don't hear it about poets and stuff for writers like, oh, these don't speak to your experience. You hear a lot about comics, but I think it just speaks to the nature of the medium. It's about connection.

R.B.:
I wonder then, because it is about the point of connection. I feel like you have to have a relationship with either the specific story that you have that happened to you or you're talking about your identities. I don't think you can go up and like, you're the pro here, not me. But I don't know that you can just go up and speculate on something that you have no relationship with in comedy. I mean, you can we're going to talk about that in a second. But I don't think that you can be so far removed from I feel like comedy that I enjoy, at least, is a lot of social commentary. And I don't think that folks can effectively make social commentary if they're not immersed in the social settings in which they're doing some kind of commentary. Right. Maybe that's very broad and national.

Hayden:
I was thinking I was like, well, you can do jokes about not being a part of that or not understanding. But I feel like even to craft a good joke about not being a part of things you have to understand.

R.B.:
I don't go up and craft a joke about being a ballerina because I'm not a ballerina. I'm too far removed from that setting. Somehow. I guarantee I could interwork something about a ballerina into my because that's the whole side setting. But just like, I think you have to be so many degrees closer to a circumstance to be able to do it. Otherwise, I feel like you're closer to making a misstep, which I feel like is where I want to try to get us where I'm trying to go is that we kind of just talked pretty extensively about how do you incorporate your own personal narratives and your own stories and your own experiences. And so I think we should talk a bit about what happens when you co opt or you take on talking about experiences for sake of comedy that aren't yours, because I think the audience also plays a particular role in that, because I think there's this weird thing that you don't really see necessarily afforded to other art forms in the same way to kind of have this protective layer over comedy to say that comedy can do no wrong, right? Comedy, like, why can't you take a joke like it's just supposed to be funny, right? Like, you don't really get that with other art forms in the same way to say like, oh, everything is fair game. Everything is on the table.

Hayden:
Well, I think you do with visual mediums, but I think that because comedy is inherently subversive. Do you know what I mean? Sure. Joking has always been politically and socially a way to push the envelope and to test waters and to drive. I mean, to drive social moorings in a different direction, to stretch and play with the bounds of what we're comfortable with. And so I don't know, I love talking about this, but it's such a complicated thing. So you have that, where it’s, I feel like a huge part of the history of stand up comedy is like being subversive and pushing social norms and saying things that are unexpected or pushing into what we're not talking about. But finding those points of connection there. I feel like that's a huge part of comedy. And so I'm recognizing the fact that it is a craft and that you have to work to put those jokes together and you have to test them. And sometimes it's just not going to work. But also, I feel like people use that as a crutch, and they do use that as an excuse to talk about things that they don't know about. And I think that's lazy comedy. And I don't think it's good writing.

They're just saying that good comedy should punch up, which, yes, there’s satire, so I tell jokes about my deaf blind dog Bitsy. I have minutes worth of roast jokes about her, and there is no position from which my deaf blind baby rescue dog is up. There's no way those jokes are punching up, but the punching down is so egregious that it circles around and I become the joke. The joke is me. Do you know what I mean? The writing is funny, but it's so ridiculous that I would say that. And stuff like old school family guys are really good example of that where you're not supposed to aspire or relate to Peter Griffin, like the audacity of what he's saying is part of the joke. Sure. And so the punching down is punching up. In terms of that, it's making fun of people who would say that and relate to that. But there's an art to crafting that kind of joke. And I feel like sometimes people just use it was a joke to validate punching down just because it's something that they agree with. So when I look at a joke, I look at the structure of it. When I'm determining whether or not I find a joke offensive, I look at how it was told, what was the intention behind telling it. And then who is the joke aimed at? Is this a joke about, like when I write a joke about the deaf or hard of hearing experience, even though it's my experience, I try to be cognizant of this, like, I don't know, 100%, though.

So I have a joke. Like you said, you saw some of my comedy online. I don't put a lot of my comedy online. Sure. And it's because of what I do for my day job. I am very worried about people misinterpreting what I say. And I feel like particularly without context, that's ripe for that. And it's a fight I just don't want to have all the time. I don't say anything on stage that I don't stand by. That's the thing. If I think that a joke, if I wouldn't want to defend it in public context, or if I couldn't. I won't say it on stage. But I don't want to have arguments about people with people who deliberately take things out of context. And so there are some jokes that I don't put online. A great example of one is I have a joke. I was diagnosed with autism. We talked about this today. I do a joke about how I'm not sure that I have autism. I think I have what I call type two autism, which is like type two diabetes, and that it's lifestyle induced. Right. So that's not a joke. When I was crafting that joke, the joke is not like haha, like autistic people, people with autism are weird or different or whatever the joke is me and the choices that I make and how I live my life that have made me influenced me to communicate in a way that could be read by others as a communication disorder. That's the joke. The joke is not communication disorders, and it's not autism. But it's like when I was crafting it, I was very deliberate about that. The joke is not autistic people or the things that autistic people go through. The joke is about me, and it's about how I interact with people and how other people interact with other people. It's not autism. And I'm doing a really shitty job of explaining it. But I don't put that joke online because I just don't want to have that fight, and I'm very comfortable with it. And I'll sit here and tell you the whole joke if you want. I mean, it's awkward to just recited joke to somebody. But I say, I think I have type two as much as type two diabetes and that's lifestyle induced. So I say, for example, if you were born with it, that's type one. If you were homeschooled, though, that's type two. I say if you have a legitimate neuro divergence, that's type one. But if you have a lot of LARPing experience that's type two. The joke is not autistic people. The joke is the things that we do that impact our social and communication.

R.B.:
It's like talking about how gay folks cannot. You can only get like, what is it? Two of the three. You either can drive, do math and have a good relationship with your father, but you can't have all three. It's something like that, right? I have a good relationship with my father. I can't do fucking math, right? But that's not necessarily a knock to queer people. It's a joke.

Hayden:
Exactly. It's a joke.

R.B.:
Which is me doing exactly what I just said is sometimes weaponized against marginalized people. But in that sense, that is an insider contextual thing. Versus if someone who is cis and straight says gay people are stupid, gay people can't do math, right? And they're on stage trying to land that as a joke.

Hayden:
Right, and it’s also, and I'm doing such a poor job of explaining that joke, partially because I'm very tired, but also because I'm autistic. But that's a great joke that I just gave, but it's different because it's coming from me, and it's how I relate to my own identity and my own experiences of being neurodivergent, whatever label you want to put on it, whatever label medical professionals have put on it.

R.B.:
You have stake in that, right?

Hayden:
It's my experience. And the butt of the joke is not, look at these people. You know what I mean? It's ha ha. Look at how stupid and terrible and whatever these people, right?

R.B.:
You are these people.

Hayden:
It is kind of that. It is kind of punching down at homeschool kids, but I'm fine with that. I'll stand by that. But right. I do think that that's weaponized. And so I think that you can do it in a way that's aware. I feel like even if it's not your identity, people can make smart jokes that I'm not like one of those. I don't believe that you have to be a part of that. It has to be your lived experience to tell a good joke about it. I do think the joke has to be thought out and well written, and I think that you need to be deliberate about where the joke is aimed and what the point of the joke is. Sure. So I wish I could think of literally any examples. I think that just if you're informed on a subject, you can craft a good joke that punches loaded the cannon in the right way, in the right direction. But I feel like people will use it’s a joke to defend what is just bad writing.

R.B.:
Yes. And the reason this comes up, obviously, is that we're not too far removed from the most recent kind of comedy roundtable battle, right? With Dave Chappelle's special. And I don't think we need to go into the nitty gritty because there's been many profound and brilliant things stated about that special specifically.

Hayden:
We don't. I will just say, I perform, my audience is college kids. I make the majority of my living off of college students. And I have seen so many full time famous professional comedians, Jerry Seinfeld was bitching, you can't do colleges anymore, college kids are so sensitive. As somebody who does colleges for a living. No, they're not. I do that autism joke and almost every college I do if I don't, it's because I forgot. Or I mean, I do jokes about abortion. I used some slurs and some jokes, and I've never had a complaint. I feel like I do really well at colleges. I've never had a complaint. I get really defensive about that because college students are not hypersensitive. College students just want you to write more than haha Black people, like college students don't think that's funny. You have to have a good point. You have to have a good joke. college students don't like lazy, shitty, uninformed writing. And I'm sorry, if that's what you're making your bread and butter doing. I get heated about that because I think college students are great audiences. They're just more discerning than drunk people at an open mic at 1:00 a.m. in whatever last call bar you're in. And I think that if you're being intellectually honest. That's why I like doing colleges, because I like the feedback on my joke. Am I communicating this thing about a sensitive topic in a way that people who have this experience and don't have this experience but are sensitive to people's experiences can laugh at it? I think it's a great test of your writing ability. And I think honestly, if you're telling a joke that college students aren't liking, it's a reflection on you, you need to think about what the point of what you're communicating is.

R.B.:
Yeah. I think your point about what direction or what is the objective of the joke makes sense. And Dave Chappelle is not the first and won't be the last person to include, like, an inherently transphobic or homophobic joke in their special, right? It's not like his entire special is start to finish anti trans, right. There's this element to the entire special that maybe needs some refining, right. Maybe needs some meditation. Is it someone's role to hopefully tap Dave on the shoulder and say, like, hey, can we engage about this? Like what was the objective? That'd be cool. But maybe that's not going to happen.

Hayden:
And I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think that he wants to. But the frustrating thing for me about Dave Chappelle is that he's clearly and again, this has been said by so many people who will say it better. But he stopped touring because he was conflicted about the way that white audiences were engaging with his jokes about Black culture. His in jokes about Black culture was, are you laughing with us or at us? And I feel like for some and like the Chappelle Show, I think the frustrating thing to me about it is that I see earlier Chappelle as somebody who as a white person watching that I see somebody who was uniquely one in a million talented at being able to take that experience something that I have never and will never understand on a first hand basis, will never understand their living life as a Black man in America. Never going to. Right, but I feel like he was somebody who was able to take that and explain it in a way that was funny, and I could relate to parts of it so that I could empathize with that and also laugh at it and feel comfortable. Like we talked about laughter as being a connection point. It made me feel more comfortable talking about these difficult parts and the uncomfortable parts of the experience of a Black man in America. By making me laugh. It gave me an entry point to thinking about that in a more critical way and wanting to understand and grow that's what's so frustrating is somebody who is truly gifted at that, somebody who's displayed unbelievable competence at what is so difficult, something like riding that razor's edge of our craft, somebody at the very peak of that not understanding for somebody to botch that so bad. It's so disappointing because I feel like he's somebody who's so uniquely good at. And I want him to understand because he's so good at it. That's the frustrating thing. Why don't you understand? And it seems could be such a valuable asset, because I know that that's a gift that he has, and all of that has been said before by more eloquent people with more experience than me. But that's where my frustration lies.

R.B.:
I think with this latest riff, right? Because we could name several individual comedians who've either botched things related to queerness and transness like this example. But one of the things that I really appreciated witnessing out of this latest incident, right? Was that a lot of attention, maybe even more so than I think I've seen with previous instances was that a lot of attention and like vitriol was projected towards Netflix as the hub for this, right? And so I'm kind of formulating this thought as I think of it. Right. But what does it look like? And what does it mean to push on these, like these big deal content hubs, these streaming services, these places where many eyes witnessed that comedy special and a lot of the ask from other stuff I've read and heard is not so much that folks expect that special to be taken down. It's that can Netflix at the very least put a trigger warning at the very beginning to say there may be content in the special that could be offensive to X-Y-Z audience in the same way that they do that with a lot of other content areas, like watching The Crown, like they have language at the beginning of some of the episodes to say, hey, there will be visualizations of eating disorder. So that was actually the request. It was not cancel Dave Chappelle, it wasn't take this down. It was can you at least communicate effectively and own the fact that you greenlighted content that includes something that folks are going to react to because there were folks who worked for Netflix. There's a dozen issues with folks that worked at Netflix are expressing, but one of them was we didn't know that this was happening until the general public did. There was no opportunity for anybody in house to review this to say this is how the receptivity might be, even though there was affinity groups and other working groups within the Netflix structure that are doing work around improving things for queer and trans people, right? They weren't conferred with so all of that big jumble of monologue to say what work or what measures need to continue to maybe be bolstered and put in place so that even if there are things getting posted. Right. Even though there's people continue to get contracted who may have contentious and problematic content. Right. So that there's at least a vetting process to figure out how to receive and respond appropriately to the fact that folks might have beef with this. Right. Like, if there's a Hayden Kristal special on Netflix and someone has beef with the autism joke that you're telling, right? Like, who in house at Netflix is going to have the opportunity to review that and say, this is the blowback we might hear. This is the responses we may have, just like not throwing it out there and then finding out we fucked up.

Hayden:
Well, here's the thing for a special. Those jokes are practiced. I mean, again, it's not off the cuffs. The stuff that they're doing in a special, theoretically, is something they've been practicing for a long time. They've been doing on stage and doing on the road. So theoretically, hitting publish on Netflix is not the point where that feedback should come in theoretically, long before the special is taped that feedback should have come in.

R.B.:
So where does the feedback come from, what should be in place or what marks are being missed, that the feedback is not being accounted for. It's a simple question.

Hayden:
Yeah, no, I would say then you get into talk about gatekeeping, and I'm a big fan of, like, let the market decide. Sure. I think that if Netflix got a lot of feedback that they need to add a warning, I think that they should have just done that. But I also feel like whoever wanted to pay for it at Netflix. I mean, comedy is subjective and they bought that special and they put it out. And I feel like because the question with gatekeeping is like, especially when you don't have people. I mean, the obvious answer is to get more people of those lived experiences in those positions that are making decisions. But even then, not everybody is going to agree. I know that there are trans people who liked the special and had no problem with it. So there's so much you could say. And there's so much that goes into these big content production and who we give a voice to and how we decide that. But I feel like there's nothing. Do you know what I mean? There's nothing we can do about that as individuals, except, say, I didn't enjoy that content, and I'm not going to continue to consume it. And I'm going to give people my honest feedback about it. Surely there's nothing like, I don't think Netflix executives are going to listen to this and be like, oh, this is what we're doing. So I just don't like to put that much thought or time or energy into stuff that I feel like that's just a thought exercise.

R.B.:
I think, to ask about, what do we do about Netflix? And what do we do about Dave Chappelle is lofty, right. But just maybe on a micro level, how do we prevent ten years from now another version of a special coming on a streaming service or a big popular platform when there's clearly right like decades and decades and decades of educational information out there that would ideally gives some context clues to say, hey, maybe don't make jokes about trans people that are inherently violent.

Hayden:
Yes. If it's something that you really care about, if you really claim to love comedy and you care about specials like this being published, I want more people who care about that to go support live comedy. Sure. Because if you pay money to go see a show and a comedian says something like that and you complain, the thing about comedy is that you don't start with that power, like Dave Chappelle didn't start with that power. If I'm booking a room and somebody says something and I get feedback from a paying customer that I was like, this is really offensive. I'm not going to book them again. You know what I mean? That starts the weeding out process. Once you've hit Dave Chappelle's level, there's nothing that we can do. There's nothing that is comedy consumers that we can really do because the special is already out there. So if you really care and if you're somebody who loves comedy and you want to consume comedy and you would like to alter the direction that comedy is going, I feel like getting involved, like consuming live comedy. Investing in that, in smaller people, local comedy or young or new creators is the place to start, because I feel like with a lot of that, too. I mean, we talked about at the beginning, some of that is just inexperience. And so I think if you go and you can complain about somebody and they have a set that's just punching down and it's clearly like what they think is funny, weed those people out. But I also feel like some young comic who's testing the edgy waters. If they go in that joke bombs, they're not going to do that again. That's a lesson they're going to learn, especially if it's something that they're unfamiliar about, and they maybe felt like it was okay to joke about if that joke bombs, that's a lesson there. So if you want to have that influence, you have to put in the effort. Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying anybody is obligated to you can't complain unless you've been to a million live comedy shows. But if that's something that you want to do, I just don't think at that level it's anything we have any control over. But at the smaller level, the people who will be that in ten years, those are the people who are out now and your laughter like whether or not you choose to laugh at a joke that a comic says right now, or like something on Twitter or share whatever, that impacts what's happening later. And the cool thing about social media and more comics coming through online is that I think it's a lower effort way for us to weed out and show the people who are making those big decisions what content we support. So like, I've gotten a ton of opportunities through TikTok, which is

R.B.:
I was going to say social media for you throughout the pandemic and was a huge tool in place of the fact that gig culture and speaking got a major hit during the pandemic. Right. So certainly, please talk about that a bit. But I'm curious specifically. Right. Like, how does that feedback and engagement from audience feel and look different through a social media platform versus being in an in person show?

Hayden:
It's less instantaneous. Sure. So if I get laughter, applause at a joke in person, then I know that's good. Whereas and it's also less one to one. It's less direct. So if I post something and it does shitty on TikTok, like, did I post at the wrong time of day, did I use, like, a no no word in the captioning? And it got flagged where I'm like, is this something? There's less of that. I mean, you get that in comedy too. It's like, is this just a tight audience? Do they just not get the reference? But it's less one to one through social media. But the cool thing about social media and the influence that the audience has on social media and comedy is that I can tell you as somebody who has had I hate to be like, oh, I can't talk about it. But as somebody who has opportunities coming from social media, I can tell you that the people the gatekeepers are looking at social media, that that's a place where they're finding people. And it's quantifiable reaction for people like that. So for the people at Netflix or wherever that's looking, if they can see somebody who has good jokes that are well written and talk about these marginalized experiences are doing well and connecting with people. And people want more of that content, they can look and say, oh, this has 4 million views. That's a quantifiable thing. And if they look at somebody's joke that is transphobic or racist or just not funny, and they can see that this has lots of negative comments and people aren't connecting with that. This person only has a thousand followers. Do you know what I mean? It's quantifiable information, which I think is not great, but also great in many ways. And it's such little effort. But if you like someone or if there's a marginalized creator, everybody go follow me. But if you follow someone, that's a quantifiable number, that the people who are making those choices can see that there's a desire for that content.

R.B.:
For sure. So I'm having this additional thought, too, about the power and also maybe the pitfall of social media, right. I've never watched a Dave Chappelle special personally, that I'm aware of, but I didn't know that there was something for me to be pissed off about until social media was saturated with talk about it right there's. Plenty of the aftermath. Stuff like Dave Chappelle in some ways is irrelevant to the situation. Netflix is something to definitely talk about because some of the outcomes for trans folks who worked at Netflix is a conversation with labor struggle and other things. But the point of this is that until folks pushed out their raw feels about the particular segment within this whole special, I didn't know that there was, really it wasn't even on my radar, which I'm sure is the case for a lot of people. So in some ways, right. I feel like and there's this really awesome other podcast called Cancel Me Daddy, where they regularly refer to this concept of cancel culture grifters. Right? In some ways, I feel like that actually amped up folks' attention to the special that like folks who are already hype about Dave Chappelle or folks who have heard of him or folks who like comedy probably would have watched it no matter what. If someone like me who doesn't really watch comedy specials until yours is posted somewhere probably wasn't going to press play on that. Anyway. I have laughed a couple of times because Netflix has suggested it to me several times, and I was like, now I know I'm not going to watch it because I'm just going to avoid the landmine that now I do know is there that part might be a little bit helpful because I might have been caught off guard if I did decide to watch it. The point is it wouldn't have been on my radar otherwise. And in some ways, I think it amped up this conversation, which is why we're talking about it right now anyway, to be like, oh, cancel culture, oh, are people really going to cancel, Dave Chappelle's not going to get canceled because Dave Chappelle is a prime person in his craft and what he does. So in some ways, social media, I think, also does a bit of distracting, to say, let's point out the problematic segments of what mainstream, high profile comedians are doing in ways that I don't know if that complicates the work that you're doing.

The other thing I was going to say is that social media as a visual medium. I'm curious if you think this right, like thinking about the content you have on TikTok, you can't bring Squid to an open mic. You're able to convey a whole different storyline. Do you feel like some of that content would have even made it into your comedic vernacular, if you will, if you weren't at home during a pandemic doing what you want, doing the videos you're doing?

Hayden:
Well, I only started doing TikTok because I was in a really bad place, and part of it was just I love my job and I get like, really emotional, I get really emotional talking about it and being back here because I fucking love my job. It's something I'm really good at, and I love to do. And within the span of a week, it was all gone. I had a year's worth of stuff lined up. I was going to do all these big shows. I was going to be working with all these amazing people and everything I built was gone in, like, a week. And then it got kind of better. And then it all went away again. And performing is what I love to do.

It's like such a narcissistic thing to be like, my passion is like getting attention on stage. I love performing, and I love the connection and the communication that was gone. I was just in a really bad place. And so my friend Lisa had gotten me into TikTok by sending me all these horse TikToks, and I was like, okay, I'm going to make TikToks. My goal was just to, video editing is a great skill to have for anybody who's into anything comedy. So I was like, I'm going to make a video day and post it. And that was why I started doing that. And I could not have possibly fathomed that TikTok has been life changing for me, which is an upsetting sentence to say to another adult, from one adult to another. But TikTok has really changed my life. And it let me be funny in a way, in a totally different medium that I wouldn't have been able to. The core is still there. It's like, I think that what is happening is funny. Do you also think it's funny? And communicating it in a way, and the words I choose and the writing is funny. But, yeah, it's opened a ton of doors for me.

And the cool thing about social media and comedy, too, is obviously you have the negatives of people who are like I said, I like social media, where the cancel culture grifters is a great way to put it. But it's like with TikTok in particular, is putting your content in front of people who are not consumers. I feel like I'm reaching people who are not consumers of comedy and who are not necessarily who are consumers of social justice education. And, yeah, it's kind of veered off the original topic, but it's been great.

And I have found a lot of really cool comics through and really funny people through Tik Tok that I would never have seen in person. I think it's providing a lot of opportunity for nontraditional people. I see a lot of comics with disabilities, and comedy is really hard for people with any disability because it's so inaccessible. Like, even the fucking stage is inaccessible. And comedy clubs are very difficult for me because it's dark. It's hard to communicate with people now with masks. It's impossible. And I'm not at a point where I can demand that a club spend money to hire an interpreter, because I don't have that name draw. So it's really been cool to see, particularly TikTok, provide opportunities for so many people who are just being passed over by the traditional stand up world. And so I can tell you from experience that the gatekeepers of what we think of as being traditionally making it in stand up comedy are looking, and they are finding those people through that. I think it's really cool that there is an opportunity for those really funny people who were being overlooked in the past to get that attention and to be seen at their base level, not even just like, be validated by the gatekeepers, but have a way for their art to connect with people, to be able to find their audience. It's been great for me.

R.B.:
So it started as an experiment, it sounds like, right? Like, as a millennial who already uses social media

Hayden:
It started as like, I need to learn how to edit video. That was my big thing. I was like, I don't know anything about video editing. It was really just like practicing me editing videos and learning how to cut things and on a beat and stuff like that. And I read a thing that TikTok has been great, and part of why it's so popular is because their in app video creator is so easy to use that it's drawn a lot of people who have become big content creators on TikTok who weren't creating on other platforms because it's ease of use. And I was like, that's 100% me. I'm somebody who's done very well and has clearly been able to communicate in a visual medium well. Now I don't edit in TikTok. I use other video editing apps, but TikTok gave me enough of those tools that it was not scary and that I could learn how to do that. And then I would say, okay, I can't do this, and I but I want to do this. So how do I do that and find the other software? But TikTok, part of why TikTok's been so successful is because they have lured in those people who have a knack for that but didn't have the skills or were intimidated by the idea of creating visual media, which I think is really cool.

R.B.:
So you said you started off doing a video a day, and then at what point do you feel like you had a realization, like, oh, I'm onto something here or like, you were getting certain levels of engagement that felt like that was going to be another tool for you to use for, what was the goal? Were you just like?

Hayden:
There was no goal. When I started.

R.B.:
Just the fact that you were going to make a video a day. You started there?

Hayden:
Yeah, I was posting videos, and the first video that I had that did well where I was like, okay, now I'm working towards this, like this could be something was, I had a video get, like, 100 and something thousand views. Okay. It was a video of me riding a horse to a Tinder date's house where everybody was thinking, I was like, some rugged cowboy, and I did a reveal where I was like, nope, and that did well. And then it was with those two videos that I hit 10,000 followers. And I was like, that's the most followers I've ever had on any platform, anything. And then I was just making videos and TikToks up and down. So I didn't have anything that did quite that well. And then, I was at a show with a friend of mine, Ben Roy. He brought me out to some little town in Colorado to feature for him. And I was getting ready to leave the hotel the next morning. And I was like, Fuck, I haven't put up a video for today. So I put something together really quick. Just something an idea that I thought was funny. A video I've been kind of working on. I threw it up, and then I was like, I went to go thrift shopping and have lunch by myself in this little town before driving back home. And when I turned my phone back on, like, 2 hours later, I had over 2 million views. And then I was like, okay, that video has got almost 19 million views.

R.B.:
Oh, my gosh.

Hayden:
Which is just unbelievable. But that was really when I was like, okay, this could be something, because when you hit 10,000 followers, too, you can join the creator fund and be paid for views. It's not very much. It's like one dollars per 25,000 views. But it's like, more than I've ever made for posting other dumb shit on social media. But that video was really the point where I'm like, oh, and that was when my following started to massively climb. And that was when I was like, this could be something.

And then I started, after that video, I started doing a daily livestream. So I do a live stream every morning, feeding horses where we just talk and hang and it's chill and we joke around and it's fun and funny. And I realized I really like doing that, too, as like, another creative outlet just to be social in the morning and hang out with people and be goofy with the animals. And, yeah, TikTok has hugely changed my life, which again, is such, like, I pay taxes, I'm paying taxes on my TikTok income. But it's been great for me. I know people whine about social media, but the connections I've made out of TikTok to have been unbelievable. In the morning, I do my live stream. We have people from literally all over the world. We have a regular viewer from Sweden, regular viewers from Japan, from Australia, New Zealand, France, everywhere in the world. And we've got some people from Vietnam and Thailand, and everybody comes and they're like, oh, it's not mourning where I am. It's so cool to be able to connect with all these people and get little slices of life from different people.

And I've made some really good friends through TikTok, my moderation team for my live streams in the morning. I have a team of, like, five women who are there to moderate the comments and keep it a chill vibe, which is always is, they've become really good friends and it's like one of them somebody I knew from high school and we were like, we were friends, but we hadn't talked since high school and the other people were just randoms and they're people now that I've really connected with and care about. And it's all through this silly social media thing that I did is to learn how

R.B.:
Something to pass the time during the pandemic and learn how to edit videos.

Hayden:
Absolutely. Yeah.

R.B.:
I don't have TikTok. I'm serious. Yes. And here's why my phone is like, ancient, and I don't think it can handle having another app on it, but I have friends who regularly send me TikTok links, and I watch what I can through Instagram. But I think the video and photo editing thing during the pandemic became, I think, even more. I feel like there was this initial lapse because everybody was doing the same thing. Like, what are you going to photograph again, your sourdough starter, you're pickling and your gardening and your plants. But then I think as folks started to get more creative and were just kind of like, how do we pass the time and how do we do this? I think that folks kind of did take to social media in a way that hadn't been done before. And I think that's really cool.

And I also think as we're kind of in this forced post pandemic kind of state of mind that I see a lot of posts on Twitter, especially from folks doing disability justice work that are like, so can you please keep your events accessible? Can you not revert back to not live streaming things and doing a lot of these remote, like tech tool things that became commonplace for the peak of the lockdown. And I think social media is one of those places where you can be at home if that's a place that you're having to be at, right. And still access content in a way that you can't go to a live show under any circumstance, whether it's a pandemic or otherwise created.

Hayden:
That's been the thing that I've been the most excited about, I think. I almost made a really touchy-feely video the other day because I was watching just some unhinged bullshit on TikTok that is so genuinely funny and brings so much joy to me. And it's just so un-be-god-damn-lievably weird. And there's just no other context in which I would have access to this person, and they're unique. You couldn't put it on TV, you know what I mean? It's not something you could do. And it's interesting, as you said, I couldn't bring Squid to a show, but it's like there's so many people that I enjoy, and I've gotten so much joy out of these videos in such a unique medium. I have found so much joy and privilege in being able to have access to all of these funny people in this very specific context. It's just I would never have been able to enjoy them without social media. People complain about it a lot, but I love social media.

And, I think that there's plenty of room for toxicity and all of the standard boilerplate talking points about why social media is bad, but I also, it got me through the pandemic. It's kept me in touch with people, and it's fostered relationships with people that I never would have had otherwise and provided professional opportunities to me than I never would have had otherwise. And I like it. I defend it.

R.B.:
Well, and I think to that point right from a content creation standpoint, if there was no pande-, I'm not glorifying the pandemic in this moment, but I will say that it opened opportunity in this way. Thinking about your past few years, you were already doing workshops, you were already doing stand up, and then the pandemic hit, and you found this additional tool and you toyed with it, and you made it work for yourself in a way that you probably otherwise wouldn't have played with to then have it be this additional vessel for you to connect with other people and then be connected to people who can open up other pathways of opportunity for you. And I also, in some ways feel like speaking of, like Netflix as this kind of quasi monopolizing media hub, which I will forever have my subscription to. I'm not saying I won't, right, but I think it also in some ways is changing the game around what we believe to be quality content, right? Like, you don't necessarily have to have this multi million dollar budget to be able to create quality content or be in front of engage with an audience that's going to be receptive to your work. And that might be where we see some of those changes we were kind of talking about is that we might not be able to make grand scale change and totally change the interworkings of Netflix or Hulu or Paramount or whatever. But it seems like there's this opportunity for smaller scale creators to then change or introduce a culture that says we're going to actually set the standard for what is funny. And now this is the ecosystem of people that are going to be raised on a different type of comedy.

Hayden:
Well, I think the thing that is so cool. My favorite thing about social media is that you have niche creators in mainstream markets, but you're getting those niche creators without having to appeal to those mainstream gatekeepers and then work around it. I don't need to be palatable to the cis het white male Boomer team at Netflix. We don't have to. I do this bit that's not funny, but I love. But not on stage. Just it's like, you know how you do those bits in everyday life where I pretend to know the President of Netflix. And whenever I have a really terrible show idea, which I love pitching, like, unwatchable show ideas, like, the real accountants of Washtenaw County is one like, if I have a really bad show idea, I will pretend to email it to who I believe to be the President of Netflix which is Netflix Prez P-R-E-Z-Z-Z 69 at Hotmail dot com. So I pretend to be under this delusion that this is like, it's not a great bet, but it is something that I do. And I think it's really funny. So I'm going to email my apology to Netflix prez 69 at hotmail dot com. Sorry we've been dunking on you, buddy.
R.B.:
You're just the example for the day. It's really not that deep

Hayden:
We can start talking about Adult Swim. I believe the President of Adult Swim to be a man named Adolf Swim who had to change it for obvious reasons. It's such a stupid bit pretending to know the president of Netflix or networks and being wrong about it. It's just such a dumb, unhinged bit. And I think it's so funny. And it's just me who thinks that anyways, you don't have to appeal to Netflix Prez 69 anymore. You can just create content and find your audience without having to go through that.

And I also think that it's been eye opening for like. And I think that TikTok and Vine and YouTube have forced a shift in mainstream content because they see that there is a market, even if it isn't like what you would put on, like, ABC at 09:00 p.m. On Thursday. You know what I mean? That's the Grey’s Anatomy spot. Nothing goes there. But even if that's not what you would put in that spot, thta, there's a huge market for it. It just is something like there's all these markets that were there for this content and that maybe isn't like mainstream white bread America, but there's more room for representation. People are seeing that representation matters and that this diverse content is desired and be consumed in a way that just wasn't feasible.

R.B.:
Yeah, I think you and I being a few decades old now, just a few have seen, like, kind of different checkpoints, if you will, of social media, like, Tumblr changed the game at a certain

Hayden:
I'm still on Tumblr.

R.B.:
So am I. I refused to delete the app, and actually I have a billboard or a bulletin, I have a whole billboard. I have a bulletin board outside my office that's technically designed as like, a Tumblr dashboard that I refuse to take down, even though no one knows what it is anymore. Yes, but no Tumblr. Yeah, but that changed the game, right? Because you would access to different content that wasn't readily available, and we could have a whole different conversation about Tumblr. But I think that you have these significant social media platforms that create more and more access, more and more conversation, more and more discussion around what is possible. And I do think that for all of the pros and cons of social media and the capitalist backings that tend to come with them. Right? Like, there is value in the fact that the average person can pick up a device and be able to create thing.

As someone who does not get the reactions or the watches on their reels. I.e. Me, i.e. m, that person. I do think maybe sometimes about managing expectations. And, I watched plenty of videos about how to craft your brand. I think that's one avenue if you're branding and you're marketing, you're doing that stuff. But I think that's not what I feel like you're doing. Subtly. I feel like there's the subtlety to it because you're consistent, right? Like, you're responding to an audience like you said, you know what you've gotten positive reaction to, and then you maybe incorporate that into the next video you make, or you revisit the fact that something was received a really high view response, and you're like, okay, let me keep on with this. Or maybe there's a part two. Or maybe there's something like it maybe helps influence what you do. But as far as I need a brand, I need to market, I need to do all of this, like printing and polishing type stuff. That's not what I'm seeing from your content. So it feels like that's a different avenue. That's more about experimenting and having a good time and engaging with an audience who wants to connect with you on the same things that you want to offer.

Hayden:
Yeah, well, and I think I don't claim to be like, a social media expert. I am somebody who's done well with social media, though, so I will say that. I'm not getting rich off of social media, but I'm making a decent amount. Sure, a portion of my income is now from social media. So I will say, I don't feel like that really polished, deliberate, curated content is what selling. Now, do you know what I mean? I feel like that was definitely a big social media trend. I subscribe to those people. I watch those people, but I feel like an advice that I give people now is that, like, overproduction is going to kill your videos. Like, if the quality of your video is too good, I'm serious. Like, if your video looks too good, I am less interested. When it's somebody's shaky ass camera in their kitchen and they're like, in a raggedy sweatshirt, like screaming, I'm like, I want to know what this is about. I feel like obviously, because I'm making income from it and because it's become a large part of what I do, there is some deliberateness to it, and there is marketing and there's strategy to it, and there is branding. Now I try not to get hung up on views because it is so fickle. And I mean, I think the same thing, managing expectations is a really big part of it. Like any view over none is great. You know what I mean? And it's disappointing if you work really hard on something and you feel like it doesn't do what it deserves. But there are so many external factors to it that you can't internalize it. And I feel like the content that I engage with and the content that I see others engaging with and my content that does the best is the stuff that is really authentic. And then you can talk about them. There's a great Lindsay Ellis. I don't know if you're familiar with her does a lot of video and film analysis on YouTube, but she has a video called Manufacturing Authenticity for Fun and Profit, which is about YouTubers and the profiting off of that parasocial relationship and whatever degree of authenticity of authentic authenticity. But I think that that's kind of a cool part of it. The other thing I think is cool. I think that it has shown. I feel like you can see the change in trends of media that the artifice and the perfection of everything is not something that was like a view, that wasn't demand that was coming from the consumption side. I'm not watching people because they are like, there are some people I watch just because they're super hot. But you know what I mean? I'm not only going to subscribe if you're super hot and like, I subscribe to people who or if your hair is perfect. I'm not like she has a zit. I watch people because I think they're good and funny. And it's like, I don't think only people who look like Jennifer Lawrence are like, you know what I mean? It doesn't distract from my viewing. It's like that there's a wide diversity in lived experiences and skin tone and body type. Then it's not impacting whether or not I'm choosing to view. And I feel like that's been reflected in mainstream media, like as social media gets more popular and we see that it's not just like Hollywood hot people who are driving traffic and interest.

R.B.:
I think John Waters would be proud.

Hayden:
Are you saying John Waters isn't a fucking smoke show?

R.B.:
I don't know. I don't know how to respond to that.

Hayden:
I feel like that's probably the best.

R.B.:
We've been talking for a long time recording, and we've been talking for a long time today. So I feel like just because you were talking about your trash take pitches to the fake President of Netflix, I feel like I'm going to put you on the spot because we talked about this earlier. I want to see if you can come up with two more examples, right? So pitch ideas for this queer Midwest podcast. So you already gave me one.

Hayden:
Oh, gay tornado?

R.B.:
Yes. So gay tornado. If we know any queer tornado chasers in the Midwest, please contact us because that would be super fucking exciting.

Hayden:
I don't know. I'm blanking. What is the name of that fast food place? Custards. Something not custards. Oh, this isn't good. I'm losing my Midwest.

R.B.:
Culvers?

Hayden:
Oh, my God. Don't air that part. I don't know.

R.B.:
All that fresh Colorado air. It's just blocking out all the.

Hayden:
I came back to sea level. I’m a dipshit at any altitude. More ideas for the podcast?

R.B.:
Yeah.

Hayden:
Heteronormativity of cheese curds, ranking individual cheese curds in like a Culver's meal about whether or not they feel homophobic.

R.B.:
Like each individual cheese curd?. Got it.

Hayden:
Some of them, I'm sure are fine, but others

R.B.:
Like the ones that don't have cheese in them that are just the breading?

Hayden:
Yeah, those are homophobic, for sure. Yeah. I feel like you can't give any justification. Just this is a homophobic ass cheese curd. And one more thing.

R.B.:
Just one.

Hayden:
Midwestern and gay. How far is too far to drive for a drag show? Because I feel like on the coast, they're like, 2 hours is a lot. But then I don't know. We're in Duluth right now. I would straight up, go to Nebraska, probably. You know what I mean? We would drive. I mean, going to our stupid conference. We're like, it was only 14 hours. Perfect. I've only spent the past nine days on a bus with 10,000 other queers.

R.B.:
I put a lot of miles on my car going to queer things. Either visiting people that I have no business visiting, driving back and forth to a drag show

Hayden:
That’s a Midwest gay thing.

R.B.:
Absolutely. And then getting trapped there because there was twelve inches of snow and then deciding to ride back anyway because I had to, I had to go. That's perfect. That's amazing. Yeah, we'll put those on the wishlist.

Hayden:
Netflix Prez 69.

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Our inbox is open for all of your insight, feedback, questions, boycotts, memes and other forms of written correspondence. You can contact us at [e-mail]. This podcast is made possible by the labor and commitment of the Midwest Institute for Sexuality and Gender Diversity staff. Particular shout out to Justin, Andy and Nick for all of your support with editing, promotion and production. Our amazing and queer as fuck cover art was designed by Adrienne McCormick.

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