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Join us on the Disruption Now podcast as we challenge the status quo and advocate for digital equity, ownership, and responsible technology.
I know you think oh I'm just here I just got here
I don't really know what's going on
there's an ownership bias
cause a lot of the people that have worked
and even to this day
still work in the Hamilton County Courthouse
for example
they're used to this this is this is their world
I think so when you try to change it
that's very difficult
that scares people and people have our
I fear the unknown having to do the it work
which is generally the easy part that's the easy part
that's what that's the
people gotta understand
the technology is the easy part these days
but training the people
how to think about what they're doing
and how to rethink what their jobs look like
that's the hard part
when I thought of what it meant to help people
I really thought about like a tactile way
a week later got a letter saying
we don't have any money we're gonna hire a priest
good luck with the rest of your life
we can teach people how to use the technology
but they have to be open to the idea of being taught
you know they had to cut 50% of that stuff
and so
the idea of any change is frightening to some people
the stakes could not be higher
when you come to the courthouse
and the law at at its core is meant to work for people
but a lot of times
it's not enough to truly protect people
so much of what happens at the courthouse is
are really truly just inefficiencies
if Google was a little bit better
it could have gotten you the answer
welcome to disruption now
I'm your host and moderator
Rob Richardson you know
we have this podcast because
we're all about
trying to show the power of emerging technology
to do good to create impact in the world
not just to you know
make profit for a few people
and so
our goal here is to show how that can happen in policy
how that can happen in government
and how you as regular individuals do have the power
so that's what we're about
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we have weekly trends
where we talk about the latest in AI and emerging tech
and how you can change the world
but going back to our guest here today
I have Pavan Parekh
who is the Hamilton County Clerk of courts
and that sounds like a boring position
and it kind of is a little bit but
but it didn't it didn't
but it has some really uh
large impact at least on our county and every
everywhere you have a clerk of courts
it's where all the back end stuff happens for
for the court system when you have a criminal trial
when you're going through a child custody
when you're going through a divorce
hopefully you're not going through one of those
I've been through one they're not fun
uh but no matter what
if you're there is
if you have to do anything in the court system
you have to go through the clerk of courts
so you can imagine
that's a lot of opportunity for innovation
and opportunity to use technology to help people
uh but there are barriers in doing that
cause when people are used to doing things
they want to keep doing it the same way
which is the definition of insanity
according to Einstein
but welcome to government and welcome to disruption now
but we have a disruptor with us on Pavan
Pavan it's an honor to have you on brother
thank you so much brother
good to be here yeah
so you know
you could have done a lot of things in your life
you I did a whole bunch of things before I did this
you did you did
and I want to talk about some of that
what in the world drew you to do
the craziness of just public service in general
like it is it takes a special person
and I and I'm a person
that's ran for office so I'm not
that's not a slight at him
I'm just I'm just
I'm just talking about the obvious
but what drew you to want to actually serve and help
cause you have done other things
you could be doing other things
but you're but you're doing this
what moved you to do what you're doing right now
well I think I
I always even growing up
wanted to build myself
towards doing some type of career
that would involve helping people
what I thought that would look like um
going into college
is very different than what it had turned out
that's how that's how music works
so when I thought of what it meant to help people
I really thought about like
a tactile way of helping people
and sure I was
I really thought going into college
that I was gonna end up doing something like medicine
oh really
where you are
you are helping people very much one on one and just
you know intimately with them
and the most important thing in their life
which is their health um
but then I think for a lot of us
things change circumstances change
priorities change but also the world changes around us
and so
September 11th happened my second week of college
oh wow
and
when you think about the cultural implications
of what that meant for American society
global society what were you doing at the time
what was I doing at the time I was yeah
I was sleeping oh
you were in college yes
I was in no
but it was interesting so I went to Xavier for college
and we had gotten a new president
and that day was already scheduled to be a day off
because it was his inauguration right
so a lot of us were out the night before
and a lot of us kind of slept in that morning
and I remember one of my roommates grabbed me
just basically grabbed me by my
my neck and pulled me out into the living room
and be like you gotta see what's happening right now
yeah uh
but but it really refocused a lot of us
I think
even in our society around why government matters yeah
why law and policy matters
I think until that point you know
the 90s it was just
it was a good time
there wasn't a whole lot of conflict going on
we were distracted by trivial things
uh so I think going
growing up in that environment and in high school
the idea was if you want to help people
there's a way to do that
and it's through something like healthcare and medical
and medical services what I
what you realize very quickly after that event
and the ripple effects of that event
was law and policy matters
yeah and that how we access systems matters how
who is represented in the system
who is represented in the room
when you're making these major decisions really
really matters and so
then I started finding myself
being much more interested in law
and decided to shift gears and go to law school
9 11 was the catalyst huh
really I
I think when you when you really think back on it
it
that that was a major shift that happened and maybe not
um it
in that moment
but when you think of how it just reordered society
and how we started all of us
started paying much more attention to government
because it was having a much more
greater impact in our daily lives
yeah um
so I think that that
if you really want to go back to the Genesis of what
of why that is a
that is a pivotal moment
but it's not everything it's
it's not it's not the entire reason
so you start thinking about well
how is life affected by that
uh and I start realizing
you know
you can help a lot of people in a lot of different ways
it's not just this one narrow scope of what you can do
so law became very interesting to me
because I realized that you can help people
on a certain level at scale
and then I started thinking about well
what do I want to do in the law
and I went to law school
honestly trying to kind of combine both
I was like well
I have this background in medicine
I worked in hospitals
I have this background in healthcare
and I want to combine that with what
these mechanisms that I see
instead of physically helping people
helping them through policies and stuff
so I thought I was going into more of a health
administration public health type of thing and in fact
that's why I chose the law school I went to
cause they were really strong healthcare law program
right and then I got about a year in
and I took a criminal law class
and I was like
I wanna do this I wanna be in I wanna be in a courtroom
I wanna be an advocate
I really wanna focus on advocacy uh
which was great to have that clarity
because I was kind of just floating through
not really sure exactly why I wanted to do
what I wanted to do or exactly what I wanted to do
and then I had that clarity
but then as things happened
talking about external forces
I ended up graduating law school in 2009
which was a really bad year to graduate anything
because the economy had then completely collapsed
the fall of my third year of law school
so what I thought I was gonna be doing
I thought I was gonna be working at a
prosecutor's office yeah
out in Arizona
and that was the place I did my summer internship
my second summer had a great experience
I wanted to do that wanted to be in court every day
sure moved out to Arizona
took the bar exam a week later
a week later
got a letter saying we don't have any money
we're not hiring freeze
good luck with the rest of your life
oh wow
wow and that shifted me back to Ohio
yeah so like I
you know even being back here
this is all luck right
there's only so much you can really plan on
and then
you just gotta make the best of those opportunities
yeah I really think pop
and if you know
growing up during these times these
you know many people from different generations have
like one pivotal moment within their whole uh
generation if it was World War 2
if it was Vietnam for uh
you know some of the baby boomers
but you know
for like millennials and now starting to be uh
Gen z's like we've had a whole bunch of people moments
it's like it's like
it's the use I'm ready for president in times yes
I'm kind of getting tired of unprecedented times
yes it's kind of been the story of being an elder
millennial that
and that's the life right
and we're going through unprecedented times
when it comes to technology
as well right
right and um
you know we've seen a lot of how AI
is being used by government in ways that I
that I don't agree with
and I'm sure you don't agree with and
and I think it's made people resistant to
to actually adopting AI to some extent right
I think people think there's a
one ideological view of how technology
should be implemented because
you know
kind of right now there's a dominant narrative about uh
the current occupant of the White House
and how things are going and what
and what uh
technology looks like so I'll uh
at a local level you've been trying to really move the
the whole system forward with the courts
because it's not just you
but really a lot of
Hamilton County is really kind of ancient in its
in its approach walk with me
what surprised you most
when you tried to just even tackle this problem
like what surprised you most about the reaction
the culture in any way both good or bad
well even before getting to that
what surprised me most
when I first moved back to Hamilton County in Ohio
I worked briefly at the courthouse for a judge
at that point in time and that was back in 2010
2011 so
when I came in and took over this job
at the end of 2021
when I walked back into this building
and I start seeing the systems that we're using
and they're the exact same systems we were using in
2010 2011
and even back then they were anacquated right
so my first reaction was oh
we're still doing this um
okay and then
as I started learning more about the operations
of our of our organization
I realized how paper driven we still were and then 2021
now 2025 almost 2026
I realized that there was a lot of work to be done
what I had assumed naively so
was that there would be a groundswell of support for
the idea that hey
if we can focus on automation and digitization
everyone's life gets easier
we reduce um
some of the lag between processing paperwork
we reduce some of the the repetitive parts of
of the job so
people can then focus
much more on the customer service aspect of their jobs
instead of stamping pieces of paper
and then printing them off
and then stamping them again
and then scanning them
and then physically walking them around the building
right little things that in 2021
2025 all of this can be done by automated systems
and should be being done by automated systems
because the other thing is
every time a person touches that piece of paper
there is a risk
there is a risk that they may misplace it
every time a person
changes something on a piece of paper
every time a person
reinputs data into a computer system
there is an opportunity for data integrity issues
there's an opportunity for them to accidentally
fat finger a number
or a name
and then all of a sudden you've got major issues
which all could have been resolved
by a single point of entry
that takes that information
inputs it and it
and you have controls around that data and information
so my thought was okay this seems simple
people should want to be able to do this
cause it will free up time for them
and oh boy
was I because that involved convincing people one
that what we had wasn't the best possible thing
and there's an ownership bias
cause a lot of the people that have worked
and even to this day
still work in the Hamilton County Courthouse
for example they grew up in this system yeah
they went to UC for law school or chase for law school
and then their first job was working at the public
defender or prosecutor's office
and then they got their way to the bench
and then they stayed on the bench
and they haven't practiced anywhere else
they haven't seen anything
so not not having that breath of vision and
and opening that aperture as to what all is out there
yeah they're used to this
this is their world
I think so when you try to change it
that's very difficult I think that's part of it Pavan
I also think um
there's not enough experience yes
they don't have a lot of real world experience
on other things I won't call it real world
their experience they have is real
it's just like everybody's experience limited
right right
and so um
when you ever had
when you've had to design something for people
when you have to understand these nerdy terms UI
UX user interface user experience
you have to then see like and this goes for engineers
lawyers people say it's easy for me
so they think it's easy for everybody no
the answer is it's either easy or it's not
there's no in between either everything is complicated
or everything is simple and as I as I tell people
you're in order to implement any type of change
and we're talking about technological change
but you're still talking about getting people's buy in
you are you are doing change management
which is why it's hard well
and I think part of it is who is who's the end user
right because
everything in our systems have been built around
the end user being the people internal to the system
exactly what is convenient for the clerk's office
what is convenient for the judges
for the prosecutor's office
but at the end of the day
and this is where I think our office has taken a 1
80 shift in how we're approaching problems
and how we're looking at how we operate
and what our solutions are
is I I none of those people hired me
they they hired me to the extent
they're
one of the 830,000 people that live in Hamilton County
so my responsibility isn't necessarily to the system
my responsibility is to the people of Hamilton County
and so because of that my end user is that person
that is coming into this building
that isn't being paid to be here
that needs access to justice
to information
to utilize their constitutional rights in this country
to seek redress for harms that have happened to them
that's who my end user is
so what we've been focusing on is
how do we reframe the narrative internally
and how us as a system
start looking at systemic issues
as it's not good enough for it to be convenient for us
it has to be convenient to that person
that is outside of this building
and that only has to come here
because they're being summoned to court
or something bad has happened to them
they're seeking that redress
so you've obviously
you have a vision and you've had unexpected resistance
because like you said
naiveté we all think because it's helping people
it's something everybody would want to do
the truth is if people aren't used to that
they feel a ownership bias
and they want to continue to do what they've done
I think there's some fear
you know something I talk about often
that there's a lot of fear
you know particularly with AI but with any technology
but I think AI is unique in that it's moving so fast
it's so dynamic and it's so um
it's so new and how we actually use technology in fact
you can have like a
more than assistant and agent working with you
that scares people and people have
are they fear the unknown
they fear their job being replaced
so you've got the resistance on one end
the people that are just against you
and just because they don't want it
how do you though
manage everyone else to keep the culture moving forward
to see that this is an opportunity for them
and not a threat to them
well I I think that's part of it
you have to reframe it as an opportunity
because also it's inevitable
and I think that's and that's part of how
when we try to build some of this change
we try to remind people
we can't just put our head in the sand
we can try that yeah
at some point this is going to
in the same way that at some point
the internet came and people had to adjust
I would rather us focus on how we can integrate it
at the beginning and start making small adjustments
instead of having to do a massive overhaul in 10 years
which will be much more disruptive
much more expensive much more harder to understand
and we are gonna be so far behind where we need to be
right now we're we are behind where we need to be
but as we make those incremental changes
and a lot of it is mindset right
I mean yeah
we can teach people how to use the technology
but they have to be open to the idea of being taught
and that is I
think one of the big things we've focused on
as far as bringing new talent into our organization
how we operate is so is truly unique
you could do the exact same job
in a different courthouse
in the state and we'd still have to retrain you
and teach you exactly how to do it for Hamilton County
and how Hamilton County works
so that's that's this
the immediate micro skill
but the attitude of I'm willing to learn
I'm willing to look at how I can utilize technology
I'm willing to look at problems
and look for innovations and improvements
and try to find solutions
and to as a
as an organization look at new people coming and say
you have an asset we don't have
which is perspective I've been here almost four years
I know that there are things that I do in my daily life
that I just assume this is the way we have to do it
because this is the way we've been doing it
for the last four years
and that is a huge risk in danger
so one of the things I try to tell new employees
as they come in is
I know you think oh
I'm just here I just got here
I don't really know what's going on
why would anyone listen to me
well most of you have had careers in other places
doing other things bring that experience to this
you've been a user of this information
bring that experience to this job
and help us be better
by showing us the gaps that we don't even know
that we have and I think as we do that
as we build that momentum of bringing more people in
that think that way then I think
it becomes infectious across the organization
and across all the other organizations
we have to necessarily work with on a daily basis
because people are gonna see that
we are being much more global in our problem solving
approach and that we are finding solutions to problems
that other people had
and they didn't even know that it was a problem yeah
but we are trying to be collaborative
and trying to find ways to solve
as many problems as we can
now you worked on that internally with your
with your staff and I believe
I believe out of the county
I think the clerk of courts is the largest
has the largest amount of employees
doesn't it so we
we are No. 2 as far as single elected official offices
the sheriff's office has more okay
the sheriff's because they also run the jail
in addition to the patrols
but other than that we are number two
and and and it's
and I think this is also one of the reasons why
internally people are concerned about change
because a lot of people that have been in the office
and have been there for a long time
they also lived through that 2008
2009 recession
where the office was twice the size it is now wow
there were almost 400 people in this office
yeah and they had to cut 50% of that staff
and so
the idea of any change is frightening to some people
because they were there through that
that problem what I try to explain to people is
the reason why you had that drastic of an issue
is because we weren't doing that incremental change
management we weren't thinking about
what are the problems and solutions
that we can implement and so
it wasn't as somebody retired
or somebody moved on to a different job hey
do we really need to replace them 1 to one
it was we have all this extra
extra weight in the system that we gotta get rid of
our goal is to not ever get to that again
that every time that we're making a personal decision
a technology decision an operations decision
we are trying to think through
not only how does this impact us right now
right here today right
but what are the second third
fourth order effects of this to the organization
but also temporally over the next five to 10 years yeah
so sounds like you're thinking like a startup
so let me let me kind of that's probably dangerous
yeah it it's a little bit like if you were a startup
let's say the Hamilton County Court
courts and how you want to eventually reimagine it
what would your pitch be in terms of
what is the problem you're trying to solve
and why does it matter
well I think the why is very simple
because so much is at stake
when somebody comes to the courthouse
it is potentially someone's liberty that's at stake
it is money that's at stake
it's peace of mind there's so much that is at stake
whether you are a
someone that's been accused of doing something wrong
or you're the victim of
something wrong has been done to you
the stakes could not be higher
when you come to the courthouse
and the law at at its core is meant to work for people
but a lot of times
it's not enough to truly protect people
and so what we have to do is fill in those gaps
we have to ensure that there is equal access um
that there is equal opportunity
to be able to exercise your rights
and defend yourself against people
trying to exercise their rights against you
and whether those are other individuals
whether that's the government
because
it's really hard to hold a government accountable
and that's quite frankly
look at the Bill of rights
the the
the our entire system of government
was built around the idea of
we need to have as a foundational document
something that says
we need to be able to hold the government accountable
and we need to protect individuals
against abuse of governmental power
yeah and that's what's at stake for so many people
when they come into the courthouse
but if we aren't again
thinking of the end user
of the people that are coming there
that are being forced to come there
and we're only thinking of the convenience
of the people
those of us who are paid to be in the building
that is a huge problem
because we don't face the consequences yes
the people that really face the consequences of
if the system is or is not just
if it is structured justly
if it is operated justly
those are not the people in the building
those are the people coming through
those are our customers
those are our clients or whatever you want to call them
but that's who we are responsible to
and without drastically changing how we are oriented
to focusing on that there is so much risk
that people are going to experience
incredible hardship that they shouldn't
yes yes
I mean I think it's um
I wanna uh
focus on opportunity here with
with AI about really administering justice
not sure if you saw this
this story that came out a couple weeks ago
but um
uh
there was a family who lost a loved one in the hospital
they were um
they were
their loved one was in the hospital for about 4 hours
and passed away and in the hospital sent them a nice
a nice note in the form of 162 thousand dollar Bill
right for and you know
the family was obviously stressed out and and
but you know
one member of the family took a look at it
and knew very well how to uh
how to how to leverage AI and
and so what they did is they challenged uh
they challenged how the building was done
they challenged the coating in the
in the building and to make a very long story bearable
um they cut off about $162,000 of that Bill right
and I say this for a reason uh
they're coming back to this cause I think people
you know one need to think about
we think about a lot of the bad sides of AI
and there are some there need to be policy
at the same time there are a lot of benefits
and there are ways you can use it uh
to for your strategic advantage you know
specifically for most of human existence
information has been hoarded and protected
by large institutions and we and
you know most of these things are foreign to people
which is why you need to hire people
just to be able to defend yourself
you still will need to do that at some level
but there's a lot more power
because information is democratized
my question to you is what role
particularly being in the court system
do you see you know
in a in a perfect world what role would AI
play in empowering
the everyday individual
that goes through the courthouse
I mean I think it will
it once we work through the regulatory structure
I think we'll have a huge role
I think
especially when it comes to answering legal questions
there's always gonna be that risk
that you want to mitigate
of unauthorized practice of law
of giving legal advice
especially when there isn't a person on the back end
for you to negotiate and talk to
and show new evidence to
and work through what their experience is however
so much of what happens at the courthouse is
are are really truly just inefficiencies
and one of the things that we've tried to do
in our office not using technology
but putting personnel towards a problem
is in building out our help center
where we have attorneys
that are there to answer questions and uh
help people through legal issues
on civil issues if it's a criminal issue
if it's a crime you're entitled to a lawyer
but on civil issues so evictions
debt collection perfect example
you are not entitled to legal representation
and a lot of times
you just need somebody to explain to you
what is going on and what are my next steps
and that particularly is a space where AI
is gonna be hugely helpful
yep because it's not necessarily about giving advice
about what to do it's trying to explain to you
here's what the process is
here's what's gonna happen next here
are your options for things that you can file next
you you know
and then maybe that
that's the time where you need to go to a help center
or an attorney and say okay
this is what I think my options are
which one is the best option for this scenario
because that crosses the line to legal advice
but everything up until that
so much of that work can I think
truly be done eventually by artificial intelligence
that is really helping people with basic wayfinding of
what am I supposed to be doing next
because so many of the questions that
that we have that come into the help center is hey
I got service I don't even know what I'm supposed to do
I don't even know what this is
and a lot of that basic information can be taken up by
a a well regulated
thought out large language model
AI that has been trained on
also how we do work here in Hamilton County right
we are such a large institution
there's over 100,000 cases filed in Hamilton County
every year yeah
just for courts for which I'm clerk
and I'm not clerk for all the courts
now if you do the math on this
we have millions of documents
floating around in our system
that we could train a large language model
absolutely
to understand what happens in particular here
and then what that does for our staff
for example
and this is where I think people are afraid of AI
taking jobs and my response to that
a lot of it is in the work that we do in our
in our office it's not gonna take your job
it's gonna drastically change how you do your job
yeah and a lot of what that means is
those initial questions
that are eating up a 20 minute appointment
with an attorney every time
we can take those off exactly right
so now all of a sudden the people that are coming in
they've already had that initial consultation
with the AI they kind of understand the basics
and they're coming to us with real
nuanced issues
that they really need to talk to an attorney about
it will free up time for us to focus on that real
core customer service mission that we have
instead of just responding to stuff that
if Google was a little bit better
it could have gotten you the answer right right
no I think that was that that's
that's a great way of looking at it
and um when people have fear of AI replacing them
I get it it's a legitimate fear
I see you see all these headlines with Amazon
laid off X amount of people to AI
first of all some of that is not true
they're doing other things
but some of these companies are doing it that are large
multinational trillion dollar companies
I tell people
is government is not a trillion dollar company
and most companies are not right
and so what they need to do is um
figure out how you work with your people
your people your middle managers
the people that are on the front lines
are actually your best designers of working with AI
yeah right
it's not like cause they know the processes
they know the questions
they know the frequently asked questions
they know what's coming through
and they know the context right
which is very important
cause you can feel like you have the right data
but the context is different for humans sometimes
that's why it can help them make more of those
contextual decisions yeah
and less of the basic processing information
well and you look at how we are set up
we are still fall our office still follows very much a
an ancient model um
where you have people at individual desks
that do discrete functions exactly
somebody from the public comes in
they want to pay a bond they gotta go to this desk
they want to uh
pay other fees they got to go different
they wanna file something in civil
they gotta go to one desk
they wanna file something criminal
they gotta go to another desk
exactly and that's just in the common please realm
or the municipal court realm
not to mention if they went to the wrong floor
because they're going to they went to the wrong court
now what what I
want to
change about how we are structured
is to move much more to like a bank teller model
where it's just the next available window you
the person from the public comes up
and they just go to the next available window
but to be able to do that
we have to build such more robust systems
that can handle all the basic stuff
that can handle the basic issues and questions
and that way like you said
the middle managers
that have that contextual knowledge
they are the ones floating around
being able to troubleshoot
and help out the specific problems that pop up
but if we do this right and this is the process
we're starting to go through now
as we're trying to look at new systems to build
if we do this right eighty percent
90% of the things that take up all the time
yes
will be automated or be able to be answered in seconds
instead of minutes exactly and if we do that right
then it frees
up all that extra time for our team to be focused on
the two things which are
you know
the the customer service and then the quality control
and that is what we need
the human brains to be focused on
instead of I gotta
that's right
I gotta take this piece of paper I gotta stamp it
I gotta scan it
I gotta make five copies and move it on yeah
the age this is how I explain it
you know when we work with organizations
um you know
it is we have to redesign how we
how we work it's a
it's a infrastructure redesign
it's also a mindset redesign for people right
because for most of society we've had it
so we've organized things around processing information
right we had human beings to have it
cause
it got too complicated to carry so much information
so there's a reason why
your system was designed the way it was
is because that at a time
and most of time was the most efficient way
because only so much information
could be processed by an individual
that is over now like it is not
like processing information
is not something you need to hire people for anymore um
you know you can process that information
and then you move to making a decision
but you need people
for the context of when the decisions are made
when it's critical when it moves from uh
just asking a question to
this is a critical legal question
people need to be involved in that process
there are certain parts where they have to be involved
you know a computer can't be held accountable
a computer can't be that's right
that's right like
there always has to be a person in the decision making
process when a decision is made
that's right and so
that's one of the things that we are very cognizant of
and and I think your point is well taken
about how systems have been structured over time
I'm not blaming people for how we are set up
I think
we were set up in a way that made a lot of sense
for a long long time yep
but we are in this transition period now
where we have to reorient how we are set up and
and that is everything from physical infrastructure
how are the offices physically laid out
where do people physically go
to that digital infrastructure
to those systems and how we think about it and
and one of the things that we know
when you look at system change and change management
it takes time so you've got really two options
which is to do that sequentially
or to do it concurrently
we have chosen to do some of this concurrently
whereas as we're bringing in new staff
and as we're training the staff that we already have
we are doing that change management on the human side
at the same time we are looking at moving towards new
information technology systems
there are some places and sometimes it makes sense
where you have to build the system first
and then train people to the system and
but that does extend that change management timeline
because you're you're having to do the it work
which is generally the easy part
that's the easy part that's what
that's what people gotta understand
the technology is the easy part
these days but training the people
how to think about what they're doing
and how to rethink what their jobs look like
that's the hard part
we're trying to do both of those at the same time
and the jury's still out
as to whether or not that's gonna work
but I think what we've seen right now is
it's already working in small ways yeah
where staff is feeling empowered to bring up issues
to say hey
I started asking the question
why do we do this this way
and it was very clear very quickly
there's no real good answer
we've just been doing it that way
and maybe it did make sense 10 20
30 years ago but we have the capacity to you know
issue a refund quicker to file this document
quicker to get it up on the internet
quicker to redact information quicker
then let's do that yes and I
the the challenge that I want to move off this point
you've talked about change management with people
one of the things that we found
working with organizations is you have to uh
it's less about the tools of the technology
the technology is important
but first really identifying the workflows yes
what are they actually right from beginning to end
because a lot of times
and this goes from the most simplest of things right
let's just take not a government organization
what we've seen is someone that is like
who is the head of making the brand copy for the
for the whole corporation
yeah right
or they're in charge of that
like
there is a process where they just know what good is
they go through something
but you can actually unlock more of that
collective intelligence for people to share
once you go through uh
and it would bring context to the uh
AI and you put a process behind that what
you know that's a simple example
but right
there's also examples for just how people do a search
at at the clerk of courts
what is the actual workflow that currently goes
right now what is the workflow
when people come into the help center
what right now and
and people often miss steps
but you can actually um
you work with your middle managers and have
LLMs to work with you
to help you unlock what that workflow is
and then then you map it to your system right
like it's what and why and I think that the
we have all been
to the extent we're good at any of this yes
relatively good at figuring out the what okay
this is the step and then this is the next step
and this is the next step
it's the understanding the why and unpacking the why
and realizing sometimes you can skip steps 2 through 3
because
or 2 through 5 because we just don't need them anymore
that's right they made sense
when you had
to have people looking over everyone's shoulder 10 15
20 30 years ago
and this this applies in so many different contexts
I'll give you another example
in my previous life I worked in the banking industry
and I remember being on Capital Hill
talking to members of Congress
and one of the issues that banks were having
staffing wise was
there are certain crimes that
rendered people
ineligible to work in the banking industry
certain convictions
and this and these were the banks going to Congress
this was JP Morgan Chase and Huntington
and US Bank going to Congress going
look guys we understand why this was the case
when the laws were written
because people were handling cash
nobody handles cash anymore
they're pressing a button
moving dollars around on a screen
so maybe we need some relief from some of this
because we're having a workforce issue yeah
because people with basic drug convictions
are having trouble getting jobs
where we don't have to worry about them taking cash
because there's no cash even in the drawers anymore
we aren't they're not handling it
and so that's one of those again
we have to constantly ask these why questions
that that law made sense at one point in time
doesn't make sense anymore yeah
how are we doing that on a macro level
but also on a micro level
into our everyday operations to figure out
are we doing stuff the best way yeah
I mean you talk about policy and the challenge with
with policy how it moves with technology and it's
it's we're at a point where it's
nowhere close to keeping in alignment with it
and you mentioned earlier
when you talked about AI and policy
and where you want it to be um
my concern is
you're not gonna get that from the federal government
you're not gonna get that from the state
so this is just kind of
more of a statement than a question
and maybe I'll turn it into a question um
you know
knowing that that likely direction is not gonna come
you know
what role do you think you have to play locally
in kind of determining policy
and practices um
because I I feel if you wait until you get clarity
it'll it'll be so
it'll take so much time
that you won't be able to use the technology
what are your thoughts on well
I mean my thought is that look
at the local level you're more agile
so if you look at at the federal procurement pipeline
yeah at doing getting new pens is gonna take years
yeah right
like and that's pens
not artificial intelligence right
so the procurement pipeline is so long and so difficult
and in a lot of ways
the larger of an organization you get
it becomes it becomes a detriment as much as an asset
because change is hard yep
at a smaller local organization
we can be much more agile yeah
we can try things and we can see if they work
and we try them at a smaller scale
and if it works at a smaller scale
we can grow it at a larger scale
and it's one of those things where
as a smaller organization
in the grand scheme of the world
leadership matters a lot more because you can
you can push through projects
you can focus on
what do I think the right things are to do
right now
you can try pilot projects if leadership is bought it
that's not just
the elected leadership at the top of an organization
or appointed leadership at the top of an organization
it is the entire organization
and I think that once you have that alignment
of people all moving in the same direction
big things can happen and they can happen quickly
but you you gotta
you gotta walk or you gotta crawl before you walk right
yeah before you run
you gotta start some
some of these projects on a small micro level to see
is this even viable
and then you can grow it and so yes
it is going to be important to have regulatory
structures
it's gonna be important to have federal standards
and state standards but at the local level
we can be the testing grounds right now
to see what works and what doesn't work
and we can use that experience
and because depending on your locality
the Camden County is a large county
you go three counties over
you got some smaller counties there
it is just as
important for them to be working on these
types of problems as it is for us
because they are you're
you're gonna see different benefits
and different problems
when you're dealing with a county of 40,000 people
than
when you're dealing with a county of 830,000 people
and what I've always said is that my
my county parks and smaller counties they
they almost operate at an advantage
because they're trying to move around in the ocean
on a jet ski jet ski can turn on a dime right
if you know
if you've got the right leadership for us here
we are so large and unwieldy and complicated
that it's almost akin to the federal government
in the extent of like
we're trying to turn a carrier strike group yeah yeah
you need a wide berth cost a lot more time
cost a lot more money um
there's a lot more coordination that needs to happen
so we need but we need to be doing both
because we can't learn lessons from one that
we will learn lessons from one
that will not be applicable to the other correct
unless we're all working this direction
um and then once we've done that
we take that information
we keep raising it up layer by layer
and that's how we're gonna build a regulatory structure
and guidance that really makes sense okay
couple of rapid fire questions
you've achieved some level of success
as you define it with your technology transformation
let's say in 24 months
what will that look like
how will you like how will you measure success
uh look
the big thing that we're working on
towards right now is rebuilding
or buying a new case management system
our current one was built in the late 90s
it was state of the art at the time
it is no longer state of the art
we need it doesn't do the things that we need to do
so again
procurement takes a while and our hope is in 24 months
we are already
we've already got one court almost online
that is an aggressive timeline for a local government
but I think we can get there
because of a lot of the work that we've been doing
behind the scenes and
I think it's also really
important to look at any of these issues
not narrowly about the one issue
and to really take that global
that global view of
what are all the different levers of power that we can
that we can play with law
for example is not static
if I need to get something changed
it I don't necessarily have to
only work within the framework of what the law is now
let's go to the legislature
let's make our case to them
let's advocate to them
the law needs to change and here's why
and maybe we get that and if we get that
all of a sudden our five year time horizon
reduces down to a two year time horizon
because we have much more explicit authority
on things we can do or can't do
and we have the support theoretically
potentially the state government to do it
all right uh
random question what did you wanna be when you grow up
when you grew up and what do you wanna be now
well again
I mean I think at one point I wanted to be an astronaut
but uh oh
that that didn't work
and so I think you know
when I grew up I think again
I wanted to help people so
I thought that the mechanism to do that was
to go into something like medicine
and help people uh
the jury is still out on what I wanna do when I grow up
now uh I
I truly don't know but I
I think a mistake a lot of people make is focusing
too much on the title or the thing
as opposed to what it is that you're trying to achieve
so my goal right now like look I
I never thought I'd be in this job
this was not even
if you gave me a list of 100 jobs
that I might potentially have
this wouldn't have been on that list even at all
but I love my job
because it is taking skills that I've developed
and experiences I've had over my life
and I found new ways to apply them
in ways
that make a meaningful difference in people's lives
so my goal is to try to use
the experiences that I have had
and the knowledge that I have
and the relationships that I have
to try to make a meaningful difference
to make life better for people
I'm agnostic and open as to what exactly the job is
that I can do that in but that's my guiding principle
do I think I can do more good
in whatever the next thing is
then maybe I take that opportunity
if I think I would be too hamstrung by other
regulations policies whatever
then I probably won't I think that's very intuitive
as we get ready to close um
you know I've had
I've been on the path of public service
you know like you and didn't ultimately serve
got to over 2 million votes though right
but I had to just plug that in
but I remember right after my losing that election
that I thought was you know
we were gonna win cause at that time
we thought Ohio was a swing state and we're not
so as we Learned we'll see
we'll see yeah
well okay
well we'll see
but so far from 2,018 till 2025
it's not been a it's been
it's been it's not been a swing state um
and so I had to then reevaluate like well
where I
was gonna go right and and and your point is well taken
you know I found um
peace in and and really understanding that
you know my value wasn't tied to what I did
but why I did it right so it could
it could change like
as long as I was figuring out ways to change
and have impact in the world
and that brought me into technology and working with
you know policy makers
and also
helping the public understand how to use technology
so I think that's that's a really good point to end on
I know we're in a trouble is time to say the least
and people are really uncertain of the future uh
we don't know fully how AI is going to uh
affect the entire uh economy
we're obviously in a uh
really unstable time politically
uh so that gives people anxiety right
and and I just tell people like it
when you feel these moments
like you don't have to be tied to what you do
but what your values are and you
and you find a way to do that
and figure out what you're actually good at too
cause I think some of the most horrible advice is
people just say
generally throw focus on what you're passionate about
but you know if you're passionate about singing
and you can't bring up a note right
you know you need to do something else right
but my point is you know
find that connection to your values
and your competency and there is where you'll find
you know
purpose and impact and opportunity for yourself and
and I think that's what you focus on and
and to be open to the opportunity because
because I think people do get a tunnel vision that they
they look at well
I want this title I want this thing and
and I and again
it goes back to why ask the question why
why do you want this thing
and really unpack that
because once you understand that about yourself
it then
opens up the opportunity for so many other things
but you gotta keep yourself open to those opportunities
and then evaluate them 1 to 1
every time that one comes up
it may make sense it may not make sense
but it's not necessarily about the money
it's not necessarily about the title
it's about what do you see yourself doing
how does that contribute to your vision
of who you want to be in this world
what your legacy wants to be
what your legacy to be and to your point
I think
those questions are answered on a foundational level
on what are you passionate about
what do you care about
what are your morals and your values
but also
how do you marry those with what are your competencies
um so good luck to anybody figure that out
because I think we're all figuring it out
I think and
that's why you see some people that have a 35 year
career at Proctor and gamble
retire and like you know what I wanna do
I wanna do something completely different
yeah and then they go and do it
and they have this whole other robust
secondary career in their retirement
because maybe it was one of the first times
they've stopped and really had that inflection point
thought about themselves okay
what am I good at what do I love
how can I make a difference in the world
what do I wanna do so it's a process
and it's never static it's always a process
I think
people need to just be more comfortable with that on
yes it's
it's a it's the
it's the new way of the world
that you have to both be comfortable in change
you have to be comfortable learning and frankly
unlearning some things and that makes you a disruptor
so Pavan
it's great to have you on the show
thank you Rob
and uh
don't make yourself a stranger
and as always never
you know if I may
absolutely keep disrupting