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In-depth discussions and explorations into the whole new world of web3 and the metaverse with leading thinkers and industry experts. Presented by the NYU Metaverse Collaborative.
The Whole Metaverse Podcast - Episode 5 with Wes Hazard - How the Metaverse & NFT's are Affecting the Art Community
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Pierre Gervois: we thank you so much for being on the, NYU podcast, the whole Metaverse. I'm Pierre Gervois, I'm one of the co-host Dr. Elizabeth has, is also the co-host. She's not with us today, so that will be just two of us.
Wes Hazard, you are a man of many. You're an actor. You're a standup comedian, you're an author. You are three times Jeopardy champion. And on top of that, you are one of the most active persons and researcher about the Metaverse and Web three. I know you first as a crypto art collector and also I know you and I deeply appreciate the Twitter space you are having every week for the organization.
Well, members, so there are many. Twitter spaces, about crypto art, about the crypto art community. Yours is one of the absolute best. I learned a lot about the NFT ecosystem Web three and the metaverse a and that's particularly why I invited you on our podcast. And thank you so much for, accepted our invitation.
Wes Hazard: Thank you, Pierre, for that beautiful introduction. I appreciate the kind words and I'm very happy to be talking to you today.
Pierre Gervois: Thank you. So I would like to start really on a personal matter. you remember the first time you heard about web three, about crypto, about the metaverse?
Wes Hazard: Okay. A couple different strands there. The first time I ever heard about crypto would be probably 2000. 10, 11 early days of Bitcoin. So Bitcoin, the white paper came out 2008. The first block was mined 2009. I don't think I ever heard about Bitcoin until probably 2013. and it was a person that I knew very lightly online who was in my DM saying, price is up.
It's going crazy. At that point, I mean, it's probably, it was certainly less than a thousand dollars or something like that. And I was like, I did not particularly know this person that well, and my past interactions with them had been, relatively unfulfilling. So I was like, just dismissed it and to my regret infinitely.
And I didn't buy any, and I am thus not a billionaire. but I've first, created my Coinbase account to 2015, just sort of interested in the tech and everything. And back in those days, I mean, you could really. Buy Bitcoin in a little bit of Ethereum here and there. so yeah, that was my crypto journey way back when very lightly interested in it.
did not do any sort of deep dive research, learn about the how and the why, the political nature of it, anything like that. So, that was for crypto as far as the metaverse goes. That term, I think, I believe invented by in the. Debuted in the novel Snow crash in 92, 93.
So I had heard that term. just in my general travelings through being a sci-fi fan and whatnot, loosely, at that time I just, in my mind it was like cyberspace same sort of thing. and so I had a very loose. I would say probably incorrect definition of it.
but that was so long ago that I could not give you a specific date. So the term metaverse, I was aware of probably since I was like 12, not something I was thinking about deeply. Certainly not having the understanding or perception of it that I have now. and in terms of like web three and the crypto art I've sort of.
This is what I do now. , this is sort of, my life professionally, and artistically now. So I would say it was 2021 that spring where I started to really, be looking at this on the daily, be really invested, attend these Twitter spaces, hold these Twitter spaces, start collecting NFTs, that sort of thing.
That wasn't until spring of 2021 for
me.
Pierre Gervois: There are multiple definition of the metaverse out there. Scholars have proposed definition. Artists have proposed definition. Entrepreneurs. What would be in like 30 seconds? The West hazard definition for the metaverse.
Wes Hazard: My definition of the Metaverse is sort of a hybrid of punk, 65 29, who's a very notable person and, a synonymous, person in this space. he, I think at the best distillation of it, where it's basically in, in the short one sentence, it's the internet that you, through an experience rather than just scroll on a screen, a more sort of, Version, I would say it would be a persistent visual layer of the internet.
So I'm thinking like augmented reality, which you have access to 24 7 through, devices which have yet to come. and which is buttressed by a critical point of having an ownership layer. So the crypto baseline tech allows you to actually own things, and have, some agency within that realm.
said like that, it sounds very not sexy and like whatever, but that is the most basic thing. It's like the internet that you can see and move through, and you also definitively own things that are yours and that you have full control over.
Pierre Gervois: following the FTX bankruptcy and all the negative images we had in the mainstream media about everything related to crypto and the metaverse. But a large group of people are saying, I'm not interested in the metaverse cryptocurrency. It's a scam, NFTs. Pointless. What do you say to people who say, I don't believe in it?
Wes Hazard: to those who say, I don't believe in it. I mean, it's very much here. These technologies are relatively, extremely young and have seen such incredible adoption and valuation and use and utility in the short time that they've been here that I think it's sort of undeniable. sort of to unwrap your question there, with the Ft x situation, first, I think it's important to distinguish between just bad actors and.
Fraudsters and crypto and then from crypto and the metaverse. So with ftx, bad guy I totally feel for the people who lost significant funds, a lot of people lost their life savings. Nothing good to report there within that company. But that specific situation was nothing in there was intrinsically crypto.
That was an Enron situation. This was a, a company was created to say that we're gonna do this and steward your money and, Correct and fair and just about it. And in fact they just stole their customer's funds and gambled with it and then they lost everything. That is a story that has, it happened to be with crypto assets.
There is nothing intrinsically crypto about that. And in fact, if you adhere to the principles of self custody where you know not your keys, not your crypto, where you actually sovereignly own those assets, none of that would've happened. Everything bad with FTX happened, one, because, you had a very bad deranged, unethical person at the helm a horrible situation, market wise.
And then also you had people who seated that custody that is so essential to what everything that I'm talking about to a third party in order to, For convenience and some financial rewards. want to, sideline that and say that's what's up there. In terms of crypto and NFTs, the cryptocurrency, the trading of it, the hype, the, the NFT projects, there's a lot of fomo and, a lot of vaporware and a lot of lies and scams.
Absolutely. I will. Absolutely. That's quite obvious. I don't think anyone arguing a good faith could deny that. but the underlying technology itself I think is vital, essential. Helpful and inevitable. It's not utopian. there will be downsides to all of this as there is with everything.
but the technology itself outside the scams, the hype, the FOMO is absolutely real and undeniable. And this is very much what we are doing with the internet in the future of it.
Pierre Gervois: one of. Of the metaverse is it's going to connect everybody all around the world, but a lot of people don't have internet access, don't have electricity. Don't have computers. And it feels to me that right now the beginning of Metaverse is more for privileged people. And it feels to me that we're forgetting a big part of the humanity because we have the chance to live in very rich country.
What can we do to make sure that every human being on the planet can have access to the metaverse?
Wes Hazard: So, you raise a very good point there and, but it's also something that we've seen over and over with technology, just. We live in a capitalist world, which is, unfortunate in many ways. And. That means that people, in the, the global north in privileged countries that extract and, put their footprint out there, have the highest level, quality of life and get technologies first.
This is nothing new. When cars came out. Obviously, it was obviously the most privileged people who had first had access to them. Even to this day, when cars have been around for, a hundred plus years and, are seen as totally common and normal and non fantastic. There is a significant portion of the global population that cannot afford a vehicle at all and, and would not, on this current timeline, it's not looking like they will.
So in terms of global wealth disparity inequality crimes of global late stage capitalism that is a, an issue, a major problem. that this stuff directly. Cannot solve and does not purport to. At the same time, I do not think that it is a worthy, sort of argument or stance against it to say, because everybody cannot have this today.
We should not do this now. I mean, that's, I mean, name any tech, chemotherapy. The most people afflicted with cancer in the world cannot afford quality chemotherapy. Should we not develop chemotherapy and continue to, expand it and do that. So, I wanna acknowledge that yes, there is a massive swath of the world population whose problems are so much deeper in daily than, can I have sovereign rights in this meta universal kingdom?
That sort of thing. So, one, acknowledge that, honor that. At the same time, I think that these technologies do provide, a possibility for a much more equitable, financial situation for people, the world over. Just on the finance side of it. I think that a lot of the criticism that crypto gets is that people perceive it to be, this is just tech bros.
Finance bros. People who are already rich and they, or they got lucky and now everybody's a millionaire and they're doing whatever they do over there on the yacht or whatever. Buying monkey pictures. I think that access to banking and financial services, which so much of the world does not have that is a.
basic Promise that crypto can fulfill. I mean, just having money or value, let's call value. Cuz money can get a little bit weird. And being able to say that this is mine, no one can take it, I can send it to anybody else on the planet, use it however I wish. And it's, protected from, a lot of state monetary policy.
I think that's a very good thing indeed. So it's not utopian, it's not gonna solve world hunger tomorrow, the metaverse. But I think that these are, developments that we should definitely pursue. And On the tech front in terms of getting people there. I mean, it's getting better all the time.
These things that are so expensive and prohibitive right now are going to get much easier to use and more affordable as technology always does. So I think that certainly, if not, if it's not the case now, that within 10 years the vast majority of people will have internet access of some kind, and that baseline internet access is rapidly going to be all that you need take advantage of these tech.
Pierre Gervois: Okay. Thank you very much. Let's talk about art. Many industries are going to be impacted by the metaverse and by blockchain, but one industry was at the forefront of this technological revolution, and I believe it's the art industry was the first industry to fully embrace and unleash the power of the metaverse.
How is. The Metaverse and blockchain going to change the art word according to you,
Wes Hazard: Ooh. So I'll just qualify this by saying that I'm just some guy, I am not an art historian. I did not, I'm not a scholar, not
Pierre Gervois: are much more, you're too modest for viewers. We, Hazel is one of the top guys. I know about the Metaverse. You're way too modest.
Wes Hazard: Well, thank you. But yeah, in terms of like the traditional art world, the economics of the art market, that sort of thing. I mean, you've asked a very broad question, and I'll just say that first of all, people all over, of all, from all over the world, across all, categories, racist ages, economic backgrounds, have made art for forever.
and will continue to do so. I don't think there's any threat of that stopping. but when you get into the business of selling art, then you're. About, a specific thing of the global art market with auctions and galleries and museums and and schools that teach art and all this sort of stuff.
so I think it's important to acknowledge that baseline art, like that human principle, that every culture has ever, has always done art. Capital A is. Fine will be fine, will find new ways to express itself with these new technologies, as it always does. We saw a lot of the hand rigging that we're seeing now when photography debuted, when it's oh my God, it's all technical, it's, a scientist did this, the camera made the image.
You're not an artist, you didn't learn how to paint. we've seen this over and over again. So, in terms of what this does for the art world, I think that this gives a platform, the decentralized nature of, I don't wanna say crypto art, cuz for me, crypto art means a specific thing, but.
Art modulated through the blockchain and distributed, through blockchain, gives people an opportunity like they've never had before. you know, it gives people a platform who would otherwise never be seen by quote, the traditional art world to, promote their work, have it seen, and have it crucially purchased by anyone of the world.
that does not mean that they're automatically gonna get these eyeballs, if you're, in, in a small village in Malaysia, and. Extremely talented artist, and you start putting out NFTs, you still have to get attention to them. You still have to have people come and find you, promotion, all this sort of stuff.
So it's not a magic bullet. However, now you can that same individual who I would never have encountered their art before and certainly would not have been able, to buy it, easily. that person is right on front, on open sea, on super rare on foundation. All these NF t art, sites right up alongside everybody else.
So they have a chance. I think that, institutional money, people who are doing well in art, who had money, who had careers, who had name recognition and had a practice behind them, already are gonna be particularly well positioned to take advantage of what we're seeing. at the same time, There are so many other people who would just have no chance whatsoever of making sales to a global audience.
Now will, and also art itself will change. So the things that we can do, like right now, when you ask people to imagine art, they think mainly paintings, sculpture, photography, these things, that we're all very much aware of. These technologies are gonna provide new experiences.
New kinds of art and ways to experience it, that we have not seen before. And for that I'm extremely excited.
Pierre Gervois: What advice would you give to a traditional art collector who is collecting physical art, painting, sculptural, drawing, and who is like hesitant to start to collect crypto artists, NFT artists? What would you tell to this person?
Wes Hazard: generally, in my experience, people who are, prolific or even reasonably prolific collectors of physical art right now and have been for like 10, 20 years look at that profile. That takes a lot of money, to, buy quality pieces from name artists, et.
Takes space, to house them or at least store them, if not display them. So you're generally dealing with an older moneyed audience. And, in my experience, those are the people who tend to be the most skeptical of crypto as a whole. The last to buy Bitcoin, the last to believe in any of this because they're success and, their values were built in.
Physical world, and so they like to, I have this money. It's in a bank account, or I have these gold coins or this art on the wall. I have it. I can touch it. It is there, it's tangible. I, they feel very secure in that. It is a little bit of a leap to say, all right, you're going to purchase this NFT and it's was made digitally.
It only exists digitally. You cannot touch it. You should not want to because it's not a physical piece. I think that they have a lot of, Hesitancy about believing in the inherent value in realness of the digital world. And I think that's probably the biggest generational shift here.
There are kids right now, if you're 15, or 12, 13, you're probably playing Minecraft, Fortnite, Roblox, like a significant portion of your day. I mean, the numbers on these are astounding. I think Roblox has something like 50 fill, 55 million active monthly users, something crazy like that, right?
this is a generation of people who. It is so second nature to them to wake up. My friends are in the metaverse. this is my friend, my good friend who I've never met, but we hang out hours a day. This is a valuable thing. A skin or a weapon or something like that, that I value, that means a lot to me.
One of my most prized possessions. But I can't touch it. I can never touch it. It only exists online. that is a very natural mindset for them, for people who come from an older generation where everything was physically rooted, especially if you spent. A significant amount of your adult life without the internet that is a big river to cross to see value, to actually feel like these are artworks that I can own and have value.
So I, would say that my advice to the people in that situation is, just throw yourself in. and I would say it, is real. The digital is real. This is so real. is what we're doing. I'm 38.
I was probably like 14. Oh no, it was 12 when we got our home computer with the internet. So I remember looking up movie times in the newspaper. I remember calling a phone number to get the weather and that sort of stuff. And I'm very thankful for that because it gave me a little, rooting in that world.
But for people like, my parents, who you. They had houses and kids before you ever heard about the intranet. I think for them it is very difficult to feel like any of this is real, and that mental barrier, I think is the biggest obstacle and challenge for traditional collectors. Once they've crossed that and realized that, this is what we're doing, I think it gets a lot easier for them.
Pierre Gervois: it feels to me that the metaverse has some attributes of a religion. There is some beliefs. We believe in the blockchain. We form a community. We gather together to events. So is the metaverse a new form of religion?
Wes Hazard: I mean, it certainly has. Religious overtones on the far end of it, and people can make a religion out of anything. I'll just say that on a baseline technical level, like just this technology and where we're moving forward, I think that it is fairly straightforward.
I don't attribute a ton of mysticism or, or ritual overlay to it. That will come, it will be there, but I look at it like this. . It is just an evolution of where we are going as a species on a technological front, like just like telecommunications, right? This is something that didn't exist 200 years ago.
Sending a message instantaneously across the planet, like we live in a wildly different world than someone in 1850 and they lived in a completely and utterly different world than someone from the year 1008. So, if. dropped us into those worlds or dropped those people here. It was, it's always gonna be foreign and crazy and they're not gonna get it.
And they're gonna be, feel threatened and angered and sad all different kinds of ways. That's just like the way of the world. on the, specifically on the. Religion question in the metaverse, there will be religion in the metaverse. You people will go to church digitally, virtually. I mean, people already do that.
it is totally feasible and obvious to me that, if you're a person of faith, you will throw on some glasses, in 10 years and go sit in a virtual pew and listen to a virtual pastor. And that pastor might have a skin that doesn't look like a human being, but it will still be, the faith that you came to hear or whatever.
100% in terms of is this a religion? Is, if you define a religion as something that gives people a purpose outside of the visual, immediate world with a sort of a teleology we're achieving something, like there's a goal here in the end, it's bigger than what we can possibly comprehend and that thing is faded to happen.
Yes, there are clear, obvious. ties and analogs between a religion and that. My take on religion is that people are just inherently religious. It's one of the things that we've done in every society ever observed, ever. There has always been some sort of faith, divinity of all different kinds.
So human beings just intrinsically want to have that, in that you could say that's because they can't understand and they need, they want meaning, et cetera, et cetera. There's all sorts of explanations for why that is, but I think that it is absolutely true that we are. We seek that sort of stuff.
And as you see now in, modern, late stage western capitalism where Christianity has lost so much of its hold, what have we seen take over? You see things like astrology and qan on and, faith in the metaverse, like we, we find ways to fill that no matter what it's gonna get filled, that need is going to be met.
And so yes, there are people who will absolutely look towards this tech with a religious aspect. My personal take is that it is not inherently religious and it's sort of, we're just seeing the same stuff we always see play out.
Pierre Gervois: Thank you so much Wes hazard, it, it was a pleasure to have you on the whole Metaverse NYU podcast. So I wish you a good luck in your project in the Metaverse. And also I'm going to do a little bit of advertisement for your Twitter spaces. I think it's on Wednesdays at 10:00 AM.
Wes Hazard: Yes, Wednesday's 10:00 AM Eastern time. We have a Twitter space with whale members which is a Dao social token community, out there. But yeah, we have natively digital, it's called Art Culture and NFTs every Wednesday, 10:00 AM Eastern time we get into it and it's a beautiful discussion with our community about news of the week, what's going on in the art space, what's going on in the culture of NFTs, tips on security, things that we're hearing about, that we're excited about, and it's just a really great time to meet with the.
Pierre Gervois: Thank you so much and. Rest of your day.
Wes Hazard: Thank you so much. Take care.