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Rethink Culture is the podcast that shines the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture. Virtually all of the business leaders who make headlines today do so because of their company performance. Yet, the people and the culture of a company is at least as important as its performance. It's time that we shine the spotlight on the leaders who are rethinking workplace culture and are putting people and culture at the forefront.
[00:00:09.12 - 00:00:11.21] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:11.22 - 00:00:15.19] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of
[00:00:15.21 - 00:00:19.06] businesses that people love to work for.
[00:00:19.16 - 00:00:21.22] My name is Andreas Konstantinou.
[00:00:22.00 - 00:00:26.19] I see myself as a micromanager turned servant leader who developed a passion for
[00:00:26.21 - 00:00:28.07] workplace culture.
[00:00:28.09 - 00:00:31.09] I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that helps businesses create
[00:00:31.10 - 00:00:35.12] healthier workplace cultures by turning their culture into a KPI.
[00:00:36.18 - 00:00:40.15] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming Lisa Gill.
[00:00:40.19 - 00:00:45.04] Lisa is an organizational and self-management coach and trainer with Tuff
[00:00:45.06 - 00:00:46.12] Leadership Training.
[00:00:46.18 - 00:00:51.22] She was included in the Thinkers 50 Radar 2020 for her work with self-managing
[00:00:52.00 - 00:00:52.21] teams.
[00:00:53.06 - 00:00:57.09] Lisa is also the host of the Leadermorphosis podcast for which she has
[00:00:57.10 - 00:01:01.10] interviewed almost a hundred future of work pioneers.
[00:01:01.12 - 00:01:05.18] And she's also the author of Moose Heads on the Table.
[00:01:05.21 - 00:01:10.01] stories about self-managing organizations from Sweden.
[00:01:10.09 - 00:01:15.04] And she tells me she has lived in Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, and Singapore as a
[00:01:15.06 - 00:01:15.15] child.
[00:01:15.16 - 00:01:17.16] So quite a diverse experience.
[00:01:17.18 - 00:01:22.10] And she's also learning the ukulele, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.
[00:01:23.13 - 00:01:27.03] So very welcome to Rethink Culture, Lisa.
[00:01:27.04 - 00:01:28.15] Thank you for having me.
[00:01:29.22 - 00:01:31.10] So where do we start?
[00:01:31.12 - 00:01:39.04] Tell us a little bit about who is Lisa and what are self-managing organizations
[00:01:39.06 - 00:01:45.22] for those that haven't heard the term before and what got you here?
[00:01:46.19 - 00:01:49.15] Wow, a trio of big questions.
[00:01:52.09 - 00:01:54.07] So, who am I?
[00:01:54.09 - 00:02:00.12] Well, I'm from the UK, as you can perhaps hear in my accent.
[00:02:01.04 - 00:02:07.03] But as you said, I grew up from the age of five in Southeast Asia, and I currently
[00:02:07.04 - 00:02:08.10] live in Barcelona.
[00:02:08.12 - 00:02:12.22] So I suppose I'm someone that has always been interested in cultures, because I've
[00:02:13.00 - 00:02:16.03] been exposed to very different ones
[00:02:16.21 - 00:02:18.03] my whole life.
[00:02:19.07 - 00:02:23.22] And in fact, there's a term for what I am, which I find interesting, which is third
[00:02:24.00 - 00:02:26.06] culture kid, TCK.
[00:02:26.12 - 00:02:31.01] So because I because I don't really identify with the culture of where I was
[00:02:31.03 - 00:02:33.04] born or the culture of my parents.
[00:02:34.00 - 00:02:36.01] I'm like this third culture kid.
[00:02:36.03 - 00:02:37.21] So I'm sort of
[00:02:38.12 - 00:02:40.04] Yeah, I don't feel very English.
[00:02:40.06 - 00:02:45.03] So maybe that also has informed who I am because I've always felt a little bit of
[00:02:45.04 - 00:02:49.07] an outsider or a bit of an anthropologist trying to figure out what the cultural
[00:02:49.09 - 00:02:51.07] norms are so that I can fit in.
[00:02:51.21 - 00:02:55.09] And maybe you weren't attached to any particular culture, so it's easier to put
[00:02:55.10 - 00:02:57.04] yourself in an observer position.
[00:02:57.06 - 00:02:58.07] Yeah, yeah, maybe.
[00:02:58.09 - 00:02:59.07] Yeah, that's true.
[00:02:59.09 - 00:03:01.22] Yeah.
[00:03:02.12 - 00:03:05.16] And then I went on to study drama at university.
[00:03:05.18 - 00:03:10.19] So I think that continued this interest in people and I really enjoyed...
[00:03:10.21 - 00:03:11.22] I'm an introvert.
[00:03:12.00 - 00:03:15.18] So I'm... sometimes people are surprised when I say I was an actress because I'm quite
[00:03:15.19 - 00:03:16.18] shy.
[00:03:17.03 - 00:03:22.19] But for me, it was an opportunity to sort of inhabit other people, know, people
[00:03:22.21 - 00:03:24.09] nothing like me
[00:03:25.12 - 00:03:30.07] on stage and really try and understand why did they do what they do and also the
[00:03:30.09 - 00:03:34.13] kind of miracle of ensembles coming together for a short amount of time.
[00:03:34.15 - 00:03:39.10] People often write about like Hollywood teams and how they create these incredibly
[00:03:39.12 - 00:03:42.07] complex productions so I was very interested in that too.
[00:03:42.09 - 00:03:45.22] And then I took a while to find out what my thing was.
[00:03:46.00 - 00:03:50.16] So I tried working in the arts, but I found that very frustrating and ironically
[00:03:50.18 - 00:03:54.01] quite uncreative if you're at the bottom of the ladder.
[00:03:54.10 - 00:03:57.00] And then I tried a number of different sectors.
[00:03:57.01 - 00:04:00.19] I worked for a software company, travel company, all kinds of things.
[00:04:00.21 - 00:04:03.12] I was a very frustrated employee.
[00:04:03.13 - 00:04:09.22] So think that's also informed my passion for helping kind of create the conditions
[00:04:10.00 - 00:04:14.04] for people to be their best selves instead of having lots of frustrated employees
[00:04:14.06 - 00:04:18.00] that are kind of constrained by the structure of an organization.
[00:04:19.12 - 00:04:22.19] And then I worked in learning and development for a while and then I read
[00:04:22.21 - 00:04:26.07] this book Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Laloux.
[00:04:26.18 - 00:04:29.13] And that really spoke to me.
[00:04:29.15 - 00:04:33.18] It was this very soulful business book and it pointed to that there's another way of
[00:04:33.19 - 00:04:38.00] organizing behind besides the sort of hierarchical pyramid.
[00:04:38.15 - 00:04:43.01] And that was where I learned for the first time about self-managing organizations.
[00:04:43.03 - 00:04:50.19] So organizations where authority is kind of fully distributed and decentralized is
[00:04:50.21 - 00:04:52.06] one definition.
[00:04:52.12 - 00:04:55.01] So you have self-managing teams sometimes, but a self-managing
[00:04:55.03 - 00:04:56.19] organization for me is super interesting.
[00:04:56.21 - 00:05:03.03] mean, that's like at the radical end of the spectrum where, yeah, there's no,
[00:05:03.16 - 00:05:04.18] there are hierarchies.
[00:05:04.19 - 00:05:06.09] That's one thing I learned.
[00:05:07.03 - 00:05:12.15] But they're much more dynamic hierarchies and they are, you could say, hierarchies
[00:05:12.16 - 00:05:13.19] of choice.
[00:05:13.21 - 00:05:18.22] So there is leadership in bossless organizations, but it is a different kind
[00:05:19.00 - 00:05:26.01] of leadership and it's a leadership that kind of flows to and where it's needed and
[00:05:26.03 - 00:05:29.00] leaders know when to step in and when to step out.
[00:05:29.18 - 00:05:34.09] So that's been like a key thread of things that I've been exploring.
[00:05:34.12 - 00:05:37.22] Does that, I think I answered in a very roundabout way, perhaps all three of those
[00:05:38.00 - 00:05:39.12] questions, I'm not quite sure.
[00:05:39.19 - 00:05:43.09] And for those who haven't heard about self-managing organizations, a fairly
[00:05:43.10 - 00:05:44.19] widespread concept now, right?
[00:05:44.21 - 00:05:50.12] I'm not sure if it's early adopter or about to hit mass market, where is it in a
[00:05:50.13 - 00:05:53.07] spectrum, but it's fairly well adopted, right?
[00:05:53.09 - 00:05:55.13] What's some examples in your mind?
[00:05:55.15 - 00:05:56.10] Hmm.
[00:05:56.12 - 00:06:02.04] Well, it's interesting because it's, I mean, one thing is that it's not new.
[00:06:02.06 - 00:06:03.16] So you're right to say that.
[00:06:03.18 - 00:06:08.04] There have been versions of self-managing organizations for decades.
[00:06:08.06 - 00:06:10.19] And you could say maybe pre-industrial revolution.
[00:06:10.21 - 00:06:13.15] Perhaps that was much more how we used to organize.
[00:06:14.22 - 00:06:16.09] And now there's much more interest.
[00:06:16.10 - 00:06:20.01] So it is more established now in companies like Bayer, the big pharmaceutical
[00:06:20.03 - 00:06:21.21] company, B-A-Y-E-R.
[00:06:21.22 - 00:06:26.10] They are now making this big move towards what they call dynamic shared ownership,
[00:06:26.12 - 00:06:32.15] DSO, inspired by the company that originated in China, Hire, that also did a
[00:06:32.16 - 00:06:36.00] similar thing with like micro enterprises.
[00:06:36.07 - 00:06:41.13] So big organizations now are kind of, you know, looking in that direction.
[00:06:42.01 - 00:06:44.18] But it's still a very small percentage, very
[00:06:44.19 - 00:06:46.12] small percentage of companies.
[00:06:46.13 - 00:06:51.15] I think I'm aware of about maybe a hundred or so that are working in this way, which
[00:06:51.16 - 00:06:53.12] is not that much.
[00:06:53.16 - 00:06:58.18] But I think my favorite example is probably Buurtzorg, which is a nursing
[00:06:58.19 - 00:07:03.18] organization in the Netherlands that has, at this point, I think somewhere between 10
[00:07:03.19 - 00:07:07.22] and 14 ,000 employees and no managers.
[00:07:08.00 - 00:07:12.03] And they have a very small back office staff of about 50 people, I think, last I
[00:07:12.04 - 00:07:12.22] checked.
[00:07:13.18 - 00:07:18.19] And so they work in self-managing teams of 12 and all of those self-managing
[00:07:18.21 - 00:07:23.04] teams of nurses they decide everything they decide their
[00:07:23.12 - 00:07:29.04] schedule, they decide which patients they look after, they organize everything
[00:07:29.06 - 00:07:36.18] supported by a team coach and Buurtzorg has the best results in the Netherlands in
[00:07:36.19 - 00:07:41.13] terms of employee satisfaction, patient satisfaction, their overhead costs are
[00:07:41.15 - 00:07:47.01] like a third of their competitors because they're so efficient, they don't have all
[00:07:47.03 - 00:07:49.12] of this bureaucracy kind of bogging them down.
[00:07:49.22 - 00:07:53.19] So it's a really great case study that many kind of business schools have studied
[00:07:53.21 - 00:07:57.13] because it proves that this can really work, even at scale.
[00:07:57.15 - 00:08:00.06] So that's very exciting.
[00:08:00.21 - 00:08:06.01] And Morningstar as well, the biggest tomato manufacturer in the US.
[00:08:07.09 - 00:08:11.09] I don't know how many thousands of employees they have, but they also work on
[00:08:11.15 - 00:08:13.07] self-managed principles.
[00:08:13.09 - 00:08:14.04] Yeah, they do.
[00:08:14.06 - 00:08:16.07] And seasonal employees too.
[00:08:16.09 - 00:08:20.09] So that's kind of tricky and complex to manage, but they have some very clever,
[00:08:20.10 - 00:08:24.22] simple but powerful principles and practices that help them do that.
[00:08:25.13 - 00:08:29.18] Do you think self-managing cultures are for every company?
[00:08:29.19 - 00:08:32.01] Is it a niche?
[00:08:34.15 - 00:08:36.07] Is it a niche thing?
[00:08:36.12 - 00:08:38.07] Or is it something that...
[00:08:41.21 - 00:08:47.18] Given enough time, where do you think this paradigm of leadership will end up?
[00:08:49.03 - 00:08:50.22] Yeah, it's a really good question.
[00:08:51.18 - 00:08:55.12] I kind of mentioned before that I had learned that self-managing organizations
[00:08:55.13 - 00:08:57.10] do have hierarchies.
[00:08:57.12 - 00:09:01.07] And that was because I, in the beginning of me discovering self-managing
[00:09:01.09 - 00:09:04.21] organizations, I was very anti-hierarchy.
[00:09:05.19 - 00:09:09.00] And in my mind, it was like, hierarchy is the problem.
[00:09:09.01 - 00:09:11.04] We need to eliminate hierarchy.
[00:09:11.06 - 00:09:13.15] If we do that, everything will be wonderful.
[00:09:14.09 - 00:09:20.04] And I realized that that was a very limited and constraining worldview because
[00:09:20.06 - 00:09:21.09] hierarchy is just
[00:09:21.10 - 00:09:26.21] technology, could say it's neither good nor bad and it really depends on how...
[00:09:27.03 - 00:09:31.16] how you do it and with what purpose and intention.
[00:09:31.22 - 00:09:37.10] And I think similarly, my original thinking was all organizations should be
[00:09:37.12 - 00:09:38.04] self-managing.
[00:09:38.06 - 00:09:40.03] This is surely what everyone wants.
[00:09:40.04 - 00:09:43.04] This is, why isn't every organization doing this?
[00:09:44.03 - 00:09:47.04] And I met someone early on in my journey, actually, who challenged me on that and
[00:09:47.06 - 00:09:51.03] said, well, you think that because you like this way of working, you know, this
[00:09:51.04 - 00:09:51.19] suits you.
[00:09:51.21 - 00:09:56.18] Like I'm quite independent and I'm a very like self-directed learner and
[00:09:58.06 - 00:10:02.01] And I've since realized that I think my current working theory is I don't think it
[00:10:02.03 - 00:10:03.12] is for everyone.
[00:10:04.13 - 00:10:05.18] And I don't think it should be.
[00:10:05.19 - 00:10:09.04] I think there are probably some organizations where it makes sense to have
[00:10:09.06 - 00:10:13.09] a more traditional management hierarchy.
[00:10:13.10 - 00:10:16.18] And in other contexts, it might really make sense to have a more self-managed
[00:10:16.19 - 00:10:17.10] one.
[00:10:17.12 - 00:10:22.13] And there's some research now, there's an academic called Michael Lee, and he's been
[00:10:22.15 - 00:10:23.19] researching
[00:10:24.12 - 00:10:26.12] decentralized ways of organizing for a while.
[00:10:26.13 - 00:10:29.00] I really admire his work.
[00:10:29.04 - 00:10:34.19] And he did one study where they found that for certain types of people, if the
[00:10:34.21 - 00:10:39.01] organization transformed to self-management, it really worked for them.
[00:10:39.03 - 00:10:40.01] They really thrived.
[00:10:40.03 - 00:10:45.16] And those people were people who were already interested in the idea, that were
[00:10:45.18 - 00:10:47.15] competent at their job.
[00:10:48.21 - 00:10:54.04] And I think it was that they also had a degree of kind of being able to manage
[00:10:54.06 - 00:10:55.01] themselves.
[00:10:55.03 - 00:11:00.10] But for people who were not so interested or unaware of it or who were not so
[00:11:00.12 - 00:11:04.12] competent or confident in their job, it actually made things worse.
[00:11:04.21 - 00:11:07.01] So I think there is definitely...
[00:11:08.12 - 00:11:13.09] It's also the case that many organizations like Zappos, for example, when they adopt
[00:11:13.10 - 00:11:20.00] this way of working, usually somewhere between 10 and 20 % of employees leave for
[00:11:20.01 - 00:11:24.04] that reason, that some people don't like to work in that way.
[00:11:24.06 - 00:11:26.18] Either you're a manager and you like
[00:11:28.03 - 00:11:32.16] managing or you're an employee and you like having a manager you don't want to
[00:11:32.18 - 00:11:38.01] have extra responsibility or you know be working on governance and stuff like that
[00:11:38.03 - 00:11:44.06] so so I think it's important that people have choice so that's like where I am with
[00:11:44.07 - 00:11:45.09] that I think
[00:11:46.16 - 00:11:54.06] I think any cultural transformation will end up losing the people that were...
[00:11:56.04 - 00:12:00.21] orienting themselves to a very different, the original culture.
[00:12:01.07 - 00:12:07.13] I experienced it in my company when I was in a default culture versus an intentional
[00:12:07.15 - 00:12:08.01] culture.
[00:12:08.03 - 00:12:13.03] And there were people, actually some of the people who were in the original
[00:12:13.04 - 00:12:17.03] culture were the ones that got me thinking because something inside of me was telling
[00:12:17.04 - 00:12:25.19] me this is not the culture I want to experience and help others experience.
[00:12:25.21 - 00:12:27.00] as a leader.
[00:12:27.15 - 00:12:33.10] And so it was kind of a counter will or a conscious knowing that this is not the
[00:12:33.12 - 00:12:35.03] culture I wanted to have.
[00:12:35.06 - 00:12:41.00] But when the culture transformed, a lot of these people did end up leaving because
[00:12:41.01 - 00:12:44.01] they were the people that didn't like the new culture.
[00:12:44.03 - 00:12:50.10] And it's like, you know, it's like a relationship, you you always have a very,
[00:12:50.12 - 00:12:52.00] very particular
[00:12:53.04 - 00:12:57.15] affinity and choice for a kind of person that you want to have a relationship with.
[00:12:57.16 - 00:12:59.18] No one is for everyone.
[00:13:00.18 - 00:13:08.04] And so, you know, we might maybe extrapolate and say that self-managing
[00:13:08.06 - 00:13:16.01] cultures for sure are for people who love to take responsibility and ownership for
[00:13:16.03 - 00:13:23.04] their intentions and actions and not those for who those that would rather
[00:13:23.06 - 00:13:26.00] rely on someone else to take responsibility.
[00:13:26.01 - 00:13:29.04] And you know, that's all works of life and all works of people.
[00:13:29.06 - 00:13:29.22] Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:30.00 - 00:13:33.10] I don't want to imply that one is good or bad or better than the other.
[00:13:33.12 - 00:13:38.03] And it's, I like your metaphor of the relationship because I think it's also...
[00:13:38.15 - 00:13:43.01] Maybe people listening can also relate to having a relationship where one of the
[00:13:43.03 - 00:13:48.06] people in the relationship grows, develops in some way, has either some life
[00:13:48.07 - 00:13:53.09] experience or does some course or something and grows in another direction.
[00:13:53.10 - 00:13:59.04] And the other person, they kind of drift apart. And that's, it doesn't mean that the
[00:13:59.06 - 00:14:02.15] relationship was bad and you shouldn't try and force it.
[00:14:02.16 - 00:14:06.16] So I think those people that left your organization, for example, of course it's
[00:14:06.18 - 00:14:08.12] sad when people leave, but then
[00:14:08.13 - 00:14:13.01] good to support them to find something that aligns with them and where they are
[00:14:13.03 - 00:14:17.00] either at that stage in their life or just in terms of their values and I think
[00:14:17.01 - 00:14:18.12] that's a healthy thing.
[00:14:19.00 - 00:14:25.06] And on a personal note, as a person, I love learning and evolving.
[00:14:25.12 - 00:14:28.13] And I mentioned I'm part of this Entrepreneur Organization.
[00:14:28.15 - 00:14:31.15] A lot of us are in it for learning and developing.
[00:14:31.21 - 00:14:38.15] And one of the issues with that is if your spouse or if your employees are not
[00:14:38.16 - 00:14:44.13] developing at the same velocity that you are, then you're creating a gap that keeps
[00:14:44.15 - 00:14:45.16] increasing over time.
[00:14:45.18 - 00:14:46.06] Yes.
[00:14:46.15 - 00:14:49.16] And that creates distance and misunderstanding and...
[00:14:53.06 - 00:14:56.15] you know, dissatisfaction and everything that comes with it.
[00:14:56.19 - 00:14:59.06] Yeah, I always say to people that it's...
[00:14:59.16 - 00:15:03.15] That's something to be aware of, especially if you're the founder or the
[00:15:03.16 - 00:15:07.21] CEO and you've read some book like Reinventing Organizations or you've been
[00:15:07.22 - 00:15:13.19] on this personal development trajectory to remember that if you come back to the
[00:15:13.21 - 00:15:17.00] company and announce, hey, we're going in this direction or we're doing this, that
[00:15:17.01 - 00:15:19.10] that's the first they're hearing of that.
[00:15:19.12 - 00:15:21.22] And people will grow at different rates.
[00:15:22.00 - 00:15:27.01] So then I think it's super important to create spaces for people to process that
[00:15:27.03 - 00:15:29.16] together, to be compassionate,
[00:15:29.18 - 00:15:35.10] to be curious about what people need, to watch out for like us versus them camps.
[00:15:35.12 - 00:15:39.01] I've seen that a lot where you have the people who are really excited by self
[00:15:39.03 - 00:15:42.16] -management and reading all of the stuff and listening to all of the podcasts and
[00:15:42.18 - 00:15:47.07] then the people who are a bit more skeptical, tentative, hesitant and it's
[00:15:47.09 - 00:15:52.04] easy to form this us versus them like, they're slowing things down or they're
[00:15:52.06 - 00:15:53.10] speeding ahead.
[00:15:53.12 - 00:15:58.15] So again, like creating these spaces for people to raise these what we call in
[00:15:58.16 - 00:15:59.22] tough moose heads,
[00:16:00.00 - 00:16:06.10] and talk them through, put them on the table and make sure we keep communicating
[00:16:06.12 - 00:16:10.18] through that instead of interpreting or projecting.
[00:16:12.06 - 00:16:18.01] Yeah, this problem of the CEO reading or learning of something and coming in and
[00:16:18.03 - 00:16:22.03] announcing is a classic case.
[00:16:23.06 - 00:16:28.04] I mentioned before the earlier guest Arnie Malham talks about it and he created the
[00:16:28.06 - 00:16:31.04] Better Book Club to solve this as a problem.
[00:16:31.06 - 00:16:35.03] So he says, know, if you're hungry for learning, you're going to read lots of
[00:16:35.04 - 00:16:38.21] stuff and some of it will be very useful and some of it will resonate, some of it
[00:16:38.22 - 00:16:40.16] will be very applicable.
[00:16:40.18 - 00:16:45.09] So what you do, you can't tell people, you know, go and read that book and start
[00:16:45.10 - 00:16:50.06] applying it because that's where the resistance starts kicking in.
[00:16:51.09 - 00:16:53.06] You need to create the safe spaces like you said.
[00:16:53.07 - 00:16:58.22] So what he's done is something maybe original or counterintuitive.
[00:16:59.00 - 00:17:01.03] He's paying people to read books.
[00:17:02.00 - 00:17:06.22] And you pay people to read books just to get off the friction, to reduce the
[00:17:07.00 - 00:17:09.15] friction of saying, why should I read a book?
[00:17:09.16 - 00:17:11.22] Well, actually, you know, there's a benefit.
[00:17:12.00 - 00:17:15.12] There's very, you know, materialistic benefit to me reading a book.
[00:17:15.13 - 00:17:17.12] But once you get the habit of it, then
[00:17:18.00 - 00:17:19.06] you have a learning organization.
[00:17:19.07 - 00:17:23.09] Another approach is what I hear you say, which is create safe spaces.
[00:17:23.18 - 00:17:28.22] So how do you create safe spaces for people to learn your skills and develop
[00:17:29.00 - 00:17:30.03] shared language?
[00:17:31.03 - 00:17:31.19] Mmm.
[00:17:31.21 - 00:17:34.16] Yeah, well in
[00:17:35.01 - 00:17:40.01] in Tuff, like that's really been the big question for us is like why we're called
[00:17:40.03 - 00:17:46.13] Tuff leadership training, for example, is because it's tough to shift your mindset
[00:17:46.15 - 00:17:51.22] and to transform your way of being, which is what we believe is, is needed if we
[00:17:52.00 - 00:17:56.13] want to have a new paradigm of leadership, because we're very much still in this
[00:17:56.15 - 00:18:00.19] paradigm of leadership, which you could characterize as like a parent child
[00:18:00.21 - 00:18:02.00] dynamic,
[00:18:03.09 - 00:18:07.06] where if I'm the manager, how I'm being is a bit like a parent.
[00:18:07.07 - 00:18:11.09] I'm kind of swooping in, solving things, taking care of you.
[00:18:11.22 - 00:18:16.12] And it's very comfortable for employees in a parent-child culture because I can just
[00:18:16.13 - 00:18:19.04] sort of wait for my manager to solve things or...
[00:18:21.21 - 00:18:28.01] But if we want to move to something that's more adult to adult, that's more distributed
[00:18:28.03 - 00:18:30.06] leadership, then that takes a big shift.
[00:18:30.07 - 00:18:34.04] And that you can't get from reading a book, we would claim.
[00:18:35.09 - 00:18:40.13] And so what we've tried to do over the last 20 years is create these safe spaces
[00:18:40.15 - 00:18:48.21] and also brave spaces where people can try out new ways of being with each other,
[00:18:48.22 - 00:18:53.13] practicing difficult conversations, like how to give feedback, like tough feedback,
[00:18:53.15 - 00:18:57.06] or how to have a relationship conflict if there's like a relationship breakdown
[00:18:57.07 - 00:18:59.00] between you and a colleague.
[00:19:00.18 - 00:19:05.13] And getting lots and lots of feedback from your Tuff trainer or your Tuff coach.
[00:19:05.15 - 00:19:12.09] So we're trained to pick up people's ways of being and their kind of pitfalls.
[00:19:12.21 - 00:19:15.12] So most managers tend to be people who are
[00:19:16.10 - 00:19:21.19] fast, smart, responsible, you know, all these great qualities.
[00:19:21.21 - 00:19:25.16] But when it's too much of those things, it becomes a pitfall.
[00:19:25.18 - 00:19:30.13] So then it's like, if I'm leading someone and they sense that I'm going to solve
[00:19:30.15 - 00:19:34.04] something, then they don't draw on their own capacity to solve things.
[00:19:34.06 - 00:19:35.16] I kind of train them to be helpless.
[00:19:35.18 - 00:19:36.10] So...
[00:19:43.12 - 00:19:44.19] like or a dojo space, right?
[00:19:44.21 - 00:19:49.19] Where you try out things that are new, scary, or using new muscles.
[00:19:50.12 - 00:19:55.21] So of course having a beginner mindset is really important, making it safe to make
[00:19:55.22 - 00:19:56.09] mistakes.
[00:19:56.10 - 00:19:57.21] We encourage that.
[00:19:58.00 - 00:20:05.10] Getting feedback, getting support, being challenged, seeing your blind spots, you
[00:20:05.12 - 00:20:06.21] know, all of this stuff.
[00:20:07.12 - 00:20:09.01] And we encourage people to keep doing that.
[00:20:09.03 - 00:20:10.15] So we have these workout sessions.
[00:20:10.16 - 00:20:14.06] So anyone that does a course with us can then join these workout sessions, which
[00:20:14.07 - 00:20:18.16] are like two hours online where you retrain again, like going back to the gym.
[00:20:18.18 - 00:20:19.19] You know, it's never done.
[00:20:19.21 - 00:20:22.15] You always have to keep working those muscles, right?
[00:20:24.07 - 00:20:30.16] So we think those spaces where it's safe to say, this is scary, this is hard.
[00:20:30.18 - 00:20:33.15] I mean, it's an identity crisis really.
[00:20:33.21 - 00:20:40.13] So many people it's sharing things like, I didn't realize how much I don't listen or
[00:20:40.15 - 00:20:44.21] how automatic it is for me to come with solutions.
[00:20:45.03 - 00:20:46.19] And that's, that's quite scary.
[00:20:46.21 - 00:20:50.03] That's quite confronting because I don't know how to stop doing that or how to
[00:20:50.04 - 00:20:51.13] interrupt that.
[00:20:51.15 - 00:20:53.18] And also what is my value
[00:20:53.21 - 00:20:56.03] as a leader if I'm not doing that.
[00:20:56.04 - 00:21:01.19] Like that's very confronting for people often so to have a space where they can
[00:21:01.21 - 00:21:08.01] say that and feel heard in that and feel seen in that helps the brain I think
[00:21:08.03 - 00:21:10.07] digest these difficult things.
[00:21:10.09 - 00:21:15.15] I'm reading this book at the moment called Hospicing Modernity by I think her name is
[00:21:15.16 - 00:21:18.09] Vanessa Machado de Oliveira.
[00:21:18.18 - 00:21:25.04] And she talks about probiotic education, which I love, whish is like, traditional
[00:21:25.06 - 00:21:28.13] education is about like mastery and achievement and control.
[00:21:28.15 - 00:21:34.12] Probiotic education is like an education that helps people be with and digest
[00:21:34.13 - 00:21:37.09] difficult things, uncomfortable things.
[00:21:38.15 - 00:21:41.10] So I think that's what we're trying to do and I think that's why we're called Tuff.
[00:21:41.12 - 00:21:46.12] It's like to put you in situations that push you out of your comfort zone,
[00:21:46.13 - 00:21:51.16] confront you with your blind spots so that you have access to more choice.
[00:21:52.19 - 00:21:58.21] Is there something people can try at home or at work, like one framework that you
[00:21:58.22 - 00:22:04.06] use for getting everyone to feel comfortable about sharing weaknesses?
[00:22:05.03 - 00:22:07.00] Or it's not formula based?
[00:22:07.18 - 00:22:10.01] Well, I mean, so one...
[00:22:10.15 - 00:22:16.06] Actually, another thing that I learned language for from a paper that Michael Lee
[00:22:16.07 - 00:22:21.06] wrote, who I mentioned earlier, he did a study where they were trying to support
[00:22:21.07 - 00:22:28.03] teams to improve their dynamics to create more positive relational dynamics, I think
[00:22:28.04 - 00:22:29.07] was how they framed it.
[00:22:29.09 - 00:22:33.01] And they found that two things made a difference.
[00:22:33.03 - 00:22:35.01] One was safe spaces.
[00:22:35.03 - 00:22:39.12] In other words, spaces that are separate to the day to day work.
[00:22:39.13 - 00:22:40.22] So they created these
[00:22:41.03 - 00:22:47.13] calls I think once a week or something like that where they weren't talking about
[00:22:47.15 - 00:22:48.10] work.
[00:22:48.15 - 00:22:52.09] And then the second thing was interaction scripts.
[00:22:52.12 - 00:22:58.16] So then they gave them these little mini scripts or prompts to help them take kind
[00:22:58.18 - 00:23:01.00] of interpersonal risks.
[00:23:01.06 - 00:23:04.19] And those can be really simple things like, you know, many people listening to
[00:23:04.21 - 00:23:08.00] this would be familiar with like check-ins and checkouts, right?
[00:23:08.01 - 00:23:11.15] So a check-in question is an example of an interaction script.
[00:23:11.18 - 00:23:15.10] So you might ask someone, what is something that you're afraid of in your
[00:23:15.12 - 00:23:16.13] leadership?
[00:23:17.09 - 00:23:19.19] Or say, you know, finish the sentence.
[00:23:19.21 - 00:23:23.22] One thing I'm afraid of in my leadership is, and you can have people either say it
[00:23:24.00 - 00:23:27.16] out loud or you can have them type it in the chat if you're in a remote meeting, or
[00:23:27.18 - 00:23:32.22] you can use like liberating structures, which is another set of structures that I
[00:23:33.00 - 00:23:33.13] really like.
[00:23:33.15 - 00:23:36.07] And there's one called one, two, four, all,
[00:23:36.22 - 00:23:41.04] where you could ask a question like that, for example, and for one minute people
[00:23:41.06 - 00:23:43.21] reflect on it silently, individually.
[00:23:44.04 - 00:23:49.01] Then they get into pairs and for two minutes they share what came up for them.
[00:23:49.03 - 00:23:53.10] Then they join another pair and they become a four and for four minutes they
[00:23:53.12 - 00:23:55.01] share highlights from that.
[00:23:55.03 - 00:23:59.03] And then you get the whole group back together and just for five minutes you
[00:23:59.04 - 00:24:02.01] hear, one highlight from each of the groups of four.
[00:24:02.03 - 00:24:06.22] So within 15 minutes everyone has had some time.
[00:24:07.00 - 00:24:11.00] You know, if you're an introvert like me, you've had a bit of time by yourself first,
[00:24:11.04 - 00:24:15.13] you've processed it through a pair and then a four and then in the whole group.
[00:24:16.21 - 00:24:22.04] So you can ask quite provocative questions, like the one I mentioned, in a
[00:24:22.06 - 00:24:24.13] structure like that that makes it safe.
[00:24:26.01 - 00:24:27.09] So that's like a simple thing.
[00:24:27.10 - 00:24:31.09] And I guess the other thing I would say what we start all our courses with is
[00:24:32.00 - 00:24:33.03] agreements.
[00:24:33.09 - 00:24:39.00] So we ask people, what would you need in order to feel safe here?
[00:24:39.03 - 00:24:44.15] We're going to be trying out things that are new and uncomfortable and what would
[00:24:44.16 - 00:24:45.19] help you to do that?
[00:24:45.21 - 00:24:50.03] And we have some suggestions, but people then become responsible, co-responsible
[00:24:50.04 - 00:24:52.10] for creating the container together.
[00:24:52.12 - 00:24:55.09] So it's like a very simple, basic thing, but very powerful.
[00:24:55.10 - 00:25:03.21] Another framework I've heard, inspired by Patrick Lencioni, I think it was in the
[00:25:03.22 - 00:25:12.16] book Advantage if I'm not mistaken, he talks about getting a team to discuss
[00:25:12.18 - 00:25:17.01] their weaknesses and something you can do is you can take something like Gallup's
[00:25:17.03 - 00:25:23.12] StrengthsFinder, which basically rates your strengths or least strengths by
[00:25:23.13 - 00:25:24.06] a scale.
[00:25:24.16 - 00:25:28.06] 34 of them and which are the top and which are the bottom and then you get people to
[00:25:28.07 - 00:25:30.01] talk about the bottom ones.
[00:25:30.12 - 00:25:34.19] You get them to talk about the the top ones of course because that's kind of who
[00:25:34.21 - 00:25:41.12] we are and reveals a bit about how we think and make choices but the least
[00:25:41.13 - 00:25:50.18] strong ones, effectively the weakest ones, are essentially giving everyone permission
[00:25:51.09 - 00:25:57.01] to talk about something that, it's not something I admitted, but it's something
[00:25:57.03 - 00:26:03.06] that someone else told me that they see in me and I can kind of resonate with it.
[00:26:04.13 - 00:26:07.18] And so getting people to talk about their weaknesses or least strengths, I think
[00:26:07.19 - 00:26:13.03] gives permission to everyone to be more empathetic and understanding.
[00:26:13.12 - 00:26:18.16] Like, oh no, now I know why you made that decision or that's why you spoke to me
[00:26:18.18 - 00:26:20.16] that way last week.
[00:26:20.18 - 00:26:22.19] And gives people understanding.
[00:26:26.09 - 00:26:35.18] I want to go back to you, Lisa, and one thing that transformed your life you
[00:26:35.19 - 00:26:39.13] mentioned to me earlier in the pre-show was meeting Karin.
[00:26:42.06 - 00:26:48.03] Walk me through that story and how it changed the way you approach your work
[00:26:48.04 - 00:26:49.00] now.
[00:26:49.09 - 00:26:50.13] Yeah.
[00:26:51.18 - 00:27:03.01] So I, um, in 2015, I had set up my own company by this point, Reimaginaire, and I
[00:27:03.03 - 00:27:06.10] was starting to work with companies that were interested in exploring new ways of
[00:27:06.12 - 00:27:10.12] working, but I was very much focused on structures and processes.
[00:27:10.13 - 00:27:15.00] As I said, I was like, hierarchy, evil, smash hierarchy, good.
[00:27:16.21 - 00:27:22.00] And then I met this woman, Dunia Roberta, at an event that was called Why Aren't
[00:27:22.01 - 00:27:23.16] Organizations Shifting?
[00:27:23.18 - 00:27:25.15] Which is a great name for an event.
[00:27:25.19 - 00:27:28.00] And she and I hit it off right away.
[00:27:28.01 - 00:27:34.10] And she invited me to her house in Portugal in January 2016, along with a
[00:27:34.12 - 00:27:41.09] group of 10 other people who were interested in the idea of
[00:27:41.10 - 00:27:47.00] buying companies and transforming them into self-managing or TEAL companies.
[00:27:47.01 - 00:27:50.03] TEAL is the term from the book Reinventing Organizations.
[00:27:50.21 - 00:27:54.19] Because her theory was if we wait for leaders, CEOs, founders to become
[00:27:54.21 - 00:27:56.19] enlightened, it's going to take too long.
[00:27:58.21 - 00:28:02.19] In Portugal, one of the people in this group, there were 12 of us, was Karin,
[00:28:02.21 - 00:28:04.09] Karin Tenelius.
[00:28:04.19 - 00:28:07.16] And she had been doing exactly that since the 90s.
[00:28:07.18 - 00:28:12.19] So first of all, I was like, wow, I'm only just learning about this in 2014.
[00:28:12.21 - 00:28:15.04] And she's been doing it since the 90s.
[00:28:15.06 - 00:28:16.07] She's a pioneer.
[00:28:16.09 - 00:28:19.22] She was very inspired by Ricardo Semler and his book Maverick.
[00:28:20.00 - 00:28:26.03] She had applied those ideas to a few small businesses in Sweden, like a hotel and an
[00:28:26.04 - 00:28:27.12] education company.
[00:28:28.09 - 00:28:32.09] And her approach was not at all to do with structures and processes.
[00:28:32.10 - 00:28:38.22] It was starting from the mindset, from how we communicate the kind of conversations
[00:28:39.00 - 00:28:46.01] that we have, and coaching people to have cultures of much higher trust and
[00:28:46.03 - 00:28:46.15] openness.
[00:28:46.16 - 00:28:48.18] That was like a key pillar.
[00:28:49.10 - 00:28:54.06] So I was mesmerized by this woman and these stories that she was telling.
[00:28:54.07 - 00:28:55.18] I was like, this is amazing.
[00:28:56.10 - 00:28:59.15] And so she and I decided to write a book together.
[00:28:59.16 - 00:29:03.03] She wanted my help in kind of pulling together all of these stories of the
[00:29:03.04 - 00:29:05.00] organizations she'd transformed.
[00:29:05.01 - 00:29:09.19] And in the process of writing that book, I also joined a course of her company, Tuff
[00:29:09.21 - 00:29:11.06] Leadership Training.
[00:29:11.12 - 00:29:16.13] And I fell in love with this company and what they were doing and decided to become
[00:29:16.15 - 00:29:18.01] a trainer with them.
[00:29:18.09 - 00:29:22.13] And Karin is like, she's such a beautiful example of what we've been talking about
[00:29:22.15 - 00:29:22.22] so far.
[00:29:23.00 - 00:29:31.07] On paper, she's the CEO of Tuff, but she's not a CEO in any traditional
[00:29:31.09 - 00:29:32.00] sense.
[00:29:32.01 - 00:29:33.13] She's really just a coach.
[00:29:33.15 - 00:29:38.22] I mean, she is so passionate about people finding their thing and developing.
[00:29:39.06 - 00:29:41.01] And that's the whole culture of Tuff.
[00:29:41.03 - 00:29:45.13] It's like, we're so oriented around developing together.
[00:29:46.15 - 00:29:48.18] And that's been, that was really what I was craving.
[00:29:48.19 - 00:29:50.07] I was craving to be challenged.
[00:29:50.09 - 00:29:53.16] I think I've always been a learning enthusiast, but I really wanted to be
[00:29:53.18 - 00:29:54.10] challenged.
[00:29:54.12 - 00:30:01.01] And even the trainers in Tuff who've been there for 20 years, we all meet once a
[00:30:01.03 - 00:30:04.19] month on a Friday afternoon from one to five.
[00:30:04.21 - 00:30:06.04] And we train together.
[00:30:06.06 - 00:30:09.22] Doesn't matter if you're like, you know, a super senior trainer, everyone trains
[00:30:10.00 - 00:30:11.07] together always.
[00:30:11.09 - 00:30:12.06] Yeah.
[00:30:13.00 - 00:30:15.22] And we, yeah, and we push each other.
[00:30:16.00 - 00:30:18.15] So sometimes we'll train in our allergies.
[00:30:18.21 - 00:30:22.10] So like, you know, me, I am quite a quiet person.
[00:30:22.12 - 00:30:28.10] So sometimes I'll be challenged to, okay, Lisa train being like really arrogant, or,
[00:30:28.12 - 00:30:32.16] know, try, try like leading a course where you're like super loud and taking up too
[00:30:32.18 - 00:30:34.21] much space and, and doing
[00:30:34.22 - 00:30:39.16] that it feels really uncomfortable and maybe it's too much but then I from that
[00:30:39.18 - 00:30:43.18] can discern something but I would I like that there was something about that
[00:30:43.19 - 00:30:46.10] element and I get feedback from my colleagues where they're like, to you it
[00:30:46.12 - 00:30:51.12] seemed too much to us it was great. Really? Wow, what was it that made it great?
[00:30:51.13 - 00:30:56.10] You know, so we do things like that together all the time when we meet in person twice
[00:30:56.12 - 00:31:00.00] a year as well where we do more intensive training together.
[00:31:02.01 - 00:31:06.16] Yeah, I think that's really changed my life and it's really become my home for
[00:31:06.18 - 00:31:07.19] development, Tuff.
[00:31:07.21 - 00:31:09.21] My lifelong home for development.
[00:31:10.00 - 00:31:17.16] You remind me of leadership styles and how we learn and develop our own leadership
[00:31:17.18 - 00:31:18.13] style.
[00:31:18.15 - 00:31:25.21] So my personal leadership style was sadly inspired by everyone, everything I was
[00:31:25.22 - 00:31:28.13] reading, being in a tech business.
[00:31:28.18 - 00:31:33.16] And for many, many years, probably still, the tech business and CEOs in the tech
[00:31:33.18 - 00:31:36.21] business are inspired by California style leadership.
[00:31:37.07 - 00:31:50.19] And Steve Jobs and the kind of high performer geek alpha male type leadership.
[00:31:51.19 - 00:31:57.06] Very dominant, not very empathic, entirely performance driven.
[00:31:57.15 - 00:32:03.03] And I thought that was kind of, you know, the role model for people.
[00:32:03.04 - 00:32:05.10] And that's what I should be adopting.
[00:32:05.12 - 00:32:06.07] But then
[00:32:06.09 - 00:32:11.13] When joining the Entrepreneurs' Organization I mentioned earlier, I was in
[00:32:11.15 - 00:32:16.16] retrospect fortunate to have served in other people's teams and boards.
[00:32:16.18 - 00:32:21.07] And so by looking at the leadership style for each of these four five people I've
[00:32:21.09 - 00:32:27.19] served under, I picked and cherry picked aspects of their leadership style that I
[00:32:27.21 - 00:32:31.18] thought resonated and sounded really like me.
[00:32:32.00 - 00:32:33.19] And unless someone had
[00:32:33.21 - 00:32:38.15] shown it in front of me and said, you know, look at this person and what you
[00:32:38.16 - 00:32:40.04] like from their leadership style.
[00:32:40.06 - 00:32:42.01] I would never have guessed.
[00:32:42.19 - 00:32:48.22] You know, it's like a little cord inside of me that starts resonating to a certain
[00:32:49.00 - 00:32:49.15] frequency.
[00:32:49.16 - 00:32:54.06] And unless I get exposed to that frequency or that experience, I will never know.
[00:32:54.15 - 00:33:00.10] And so, like for me, the best way to learn your own leadership style, anyone's own
[00:33:00.12 - 00:33:02.21] leadership style is through exposure.
[00:33:04.15 - 00:33:08.10] And it's rare as leaders that we're exposed to a lot of different leadership
[00:33:08.12 - 00:33:13.22] styles because you have to work a lot of different companies or have opportunities
[00:33:14.00 - 00:33:17.21] to switch managers, you know, every year, every few months or whatever.
[00:33:19.16 - 00:33:25.06] So, yeah, it's fascinating to think about leadership styles and also how leadership
[00:33:25.07 - 00:33:29.06] styles are really how we think and act because we're leaders,
[00:33:29.12 - 00:33:32.16] in our work environment, we're leaders in our family, we're leaders in our
[00:33:32.18 - 00:33:34.22] community, we're leaders of self.
[00:33:35.09 - 00:33:42.12] And so who I am as a leader and the type of person I am as a leader will reflect in
[00:33:42.13 - 00:33:45.00] all of these aspects of my life.
[00:33:45.01 - 00:33:46.09] Yeah, exactly.
[00:33:46.10 - 00:33:53.10] And we have people on our courses who say all the time, you know, I came on this
[00:33:53.12 - 00:33:56.09] training to improve my leadership, but actually it's transformed the
[00:33:56.10 - 00:33:58.22] conversations that I have with my teenage son.
[00:33:59.00 - 00:34:02.06] Well, like how I talk to my partner now is totally different.
[00:34:02.07 - 00:34:07.07] I realized how much I was, whenever she was struggling, I would just go to solutions
[00:34:07.09 - 00:34:09.07] and I've stopped doing that now.
[00:34:09.15 - 00:34:14.00] And the other thing I wanted to say is about being exposed to leadership styles.
[00:34:15.07 - 00:34:20.01] One thing I learned was that I was cherry picking the leadership styles that were
[00:34:20.03 - 00:34:25.19] most like me, that resonated with me, which I felt like, those are good ones
[00:34:25.21 - 00:34:27.16] because they're like me.
[00:34:28.03 - 00:34:32.15] And actually my biggest learning has come from seeing what I can learn from
[00:34:32.16 - 00:34:36.16] leadership styles that are not like me and even that might repel me initially.
[00:34:36.18 - 00:34:40.09] So this is why I like this allergy thing, which comes from a model called Core
[00:34:40.10 - 00:34:43.07] Quality Quadrant by Daniel Ofman.
[00:34:43.09 - 00:34:45.07] So we do that in our courses and we also
[00:34:45.09 - 00:34:46.10] do that in Tuff.
[00:34:46.12 - 00:34:54.12] So Karin for example, she has a core quality which is drive, which is not
[00:34:54.13 - 00:34:58.22] surprising really, she's a CEO, she's a founder and when it's too much she becomes
[00:34:59.00 - 00:35:00.19] like a bulldozer.
[00:35:00.21 - 00:35:04.15] So that's her pitfall, bulldozer and we will lovingly tell her if she's being a
[00:35:04.16 - 00:35:05.01] bulldozer.
[00:35:05.03 - 00:35:06.21] Now you're being a bulldozer Karin.
[00:35:06.22 - 00:35:11.01] Where she's like going so fast and we all feel like we're being kind of dragged
[00:35:11.03 - 00:35:15.03] behind and so she's learned over the years to develop
[00:35:15.04 - 00:35:20.09] the third box which is your challenge which is kind of like a complementary
[00:35:20.10 - 00:35:26.10] quality that you don't have access to in a natural way but you might admire in others
[00:35:26.12 - 00:35:30.09] so for her it's been patience so she's learned
[00:35:31.06 - 00:35:35.13] that sometimes she has like this great idea and the energy isn't there yet in the
[00:35:35.15 - 00:35:40.10] organization and rather than pushing it she waits and she has a bit of patience
[00:35:40.12 - 00:35:46.12] and then quite often down the line people might say yeah that is a good idea and had
[00:35:46.13 - 00:35:51.16] Nathan Donaldson on your podcast saying something similar that he said the time
[00:35:51.18 - 00:35:55.03] horizon of people thinking his idea that he suggested was a good one was like three
[00:35:55.04 - 00:35:57.15] years or something like that.
[00:35:58.03 - 00:36:03.06] And then of course her allergy is if it's like all talk and no action.
[00:36:03.07 - 00:36:06.10] So if it starts to become too much patience, then it becomes that.
[00:36:07.00 - 00:36:10.10] So it's good to know like for each of us, like what is our core quality quadrant.
[00:36:10.12 - 00:36:12.22] It's a bit like what you said with the Strengthsfinders.
[00:36:13.00 - 00:36:17.22] If you talk about it with your colleagues, then you can sort of lovingly share, you know,
[00:36:18.00 - 00:36:20.09] this is my pitfall, this is what I want to develop.
[00:36:20.10 - 00:36:24.22] And I can tell you when you're in your pitfall or I can give you feedback when I
[00:36:25.00 - 00:36:27.00] see that you're developing your challenge.
[00:36:27.01 - 00:36:29.03] Like that was a really great example of that.
[00:36:29.04 - 00:36:32.15] And also be aware of when I might be triggering your allergy.
[00:36:33.09 - 00:36:37.13] But I've started looking for the people who are in my allergy box and then seeing
[00:36:37.15 - 00:36:42.19] what's the quality that corresponds to that allergy that I might like to take a
[00:36:42.21 - 00:36:44.15] little bit of for myself.
[00:36:45.06 - 00:36:49.22] So I have an allergy to leaders who are like super arrogant and like take up a lot
[00:36:50.00 - 00:36:51.03] of space.
[00:36:51.12 - 00:36:56.01] But also there's a gift there for me, which is like learning to be more
[00:36:56.03 - 00:36:59.18] expressed, more authentic.
[00:37:00.00 - 00:37:04.19] More powerful because I have a quadrant where my pitfall is being a bit like a
[00:37:04.21 - 00:37:05.19] clam.
[00:37:06.06 - 00:37:10.10] Where this is feedback that I got from my colleagues that I can be too quiet and
[00:37:10.12 - 00:37:15.01] people don't know what I'm thinking or feeling and that actually makes people
[00:37:15.03 - 00:37:18.21] feel a little bit unsafe or that they don't know if they want to open up.
[00:37:19.00 - 00:37:23.03] So my challenge at the moment that I'm working on is what I'm calling hippo
[00:37:23.04 - 00:37:29.16] ballerina which for me represents like being much more expressed, more playful,
[00:37:29.18 - 00:37:36.03] more authentic, daring to share what I'm feeling, unfinished thoughts that don't need
[00:37:36.04 - 00:37:42.12] to be really articulate and beautiful and profound so that people can be more in
[00:37:42.13 - 00:37:44.00] contact with me.
[00:37:45.10 - 00:37:49.10] But if it's too much of that then of course I start to worry that I become too
[00:37:49.12 - 00:37:50.09] much.
[00:37:50.12 - 00:37:57.06] So that space between challenge and allergy is very uncomfortable but there's
[00:37:57.07 - 00:37:59.12] like very rich learning there.
[00:38:01.04 - 00:38:06.09] I'm also uncomfortable in front of arrogant and larger than life leaders.
[00:38:08.12 - 00:38:18.06] And the phrase I use whenever I'm uncomfortable is love not fear.
[00:38:19.19 - 00:38:23.10] Because everything in life we either approach with love or with fear.
[00:38:23.12 - 00:38:29.04] Every single feeling if you drill down into it is caused at the root of it by
[00:38:29.06 - 00:38:30.03] fear.
[00:38:30.16 - 00:38:34.07] Fear of losing something, fear of disappointing someone, fear of not being
[00:38:34.09 - 00:38:36.15] accepted, fear of losing control.
[00:38:36.16 - 00:38:39.07] Every single feeling has fear at the bottom of it.
[00:38:39.09 - 00:38:46.09] So my lack of comfort, if someone who's really confrontational, is fear.
[00:38:46.10 - 00:38:52.12] So I'm trying to turn it around and saying, how can I approach this with love?
[00:38:52.18 - 00:39:00.15] And love starts with, for example, nonviolent communication principles.
[00:39:01.03 - 00:39:07.09] So sharing feelings, sharing a common understanding, starting with facts and
[00:39:07.10 - 00:39:10.06] stripping away the story from the facts.
[00:39:10.19 - 00:39:20.12] And approaching people as people and not as titles or expectations.
[00:39:21.06 - 00:39:22.07] Or judgments.
[00:39:22.09 - 00:39:24.19] Or judgements, yes, preconceptions.
[00:39:24.21 - 00:39:25.15] For sure.
[00:39:26.06 - 00:39:27.01] Yeah, I love that.
[00:39:27.03 - 00:39:33.21] Something I touched on in our pre-show, Lisa, is I'm really inspired by the
[00:39:34.10 - 00:39:39.10] purpose, the very meaningful purpose of the work that you do, which is helping
[00:39:39.12 - 00:39:40.04] transform leaders.
[00:39:40.06 - 00:39:41.22] That's in my own words.
[00:39:43.06 - 00:39:46.09] What is stopping you from doing the best work of your life?
[00:39:46.10 - 00:39:50.13] What is stopping you from really helping people transform?
[00:39:51.18 - 00:39:57.16] If you had the magic wand, what would you change so you can affect the lives of
[00:39:57.18 - 00:39:58.22] thousands?
[00:40:02.06 - 00:40:04.12] Such a juicy question.
[00:40:06.16 - 00:40:12.15] What is coming up for me now that's something that's very current for me as
[00:40:12.16 - 00:40:17.22] I'm going into the summer season which in my work life is often in a season where
[00:40:18.00 - 00:40:24.22] things like wind down I take time off to go offline and like try and tune into my
[00:40:25.00 - 00:40:28.12] creativity again like recrystallize my purpose
[00:40:29.21 - 00:40:31.04] So I'm right at the beginning of that.
[00:40:31.06 - 00:40:40.10] So right now what's stopping me is I think a lack of clarity that I feel somewhat
[00:40:40.12 - 00:40:48.03] overwhelmed sometimes because I have a lot of knowledge and examples and stories by
[00:40:48.04 - 00:40:51.10] virtue of my podcast and writing.
[00:40:53.09 - 00:40:57.19] And sometimes what stops me is like, how do I contribute with this?
[00:40:57.21 - 00:41:02.10] Like, what's the best way to channel my energy to make the most meaningful
[00:41:02.12 - 00:41:03.04] contribution?
[00:41:03.06 - 00:41:05.15] Because there are a lot of different things I could do.
[00:41:05.16 - 00:41:10.13] And one of my pitfalls is to get drawn into too many projects because I'm so
[00:41:10.15 - 00:41:12.13] interested in lots of things.
[00:41:13.09 - 00:41:18.10] But I've been very inspired by Miki Kashtan, who's a nonviolent communication
[00:41:18.12 - 00:41:22.04] practitioner actually, and also has this organization called Nonviolent Global
[00:41:22.06 - 00:41:25.19] Liberation, which is a super interesting radical organization.
[00:41:26.04 - 00:41:34.09] And she has been a teacher for me in the work around the capacity lens, which is
[00:41:34.10 - 00:41:35.15] all about
[00:41:36.03 - 00:41:42.06] that we as human beings have a finite amount of capacity in terms of our energy,
[00:41:42.07 - 00:41:44.07] our resources to do things.
[00:41:44.10 - 00:41:52.13] And we're in a paradigm of kind of capitalism and perpetual growth and productivity and
[00:41:52.15 - 00:41:56.04] stuff and it's really hard to unlearn that.
[00:41:56.09 - 00:42:00.16] So every time I take time off, I find it so hard to have an empty calendar.
[00:42:00.18 - 00:42:02.16] I find that very confronting.
[00:42:02.22 - 00:42:05.15] This need to, I have to be productive today.
[00:42:07.01 - 00:42:13.18] But what happens if we don't pay attention to our capacity limits and what's happened
[00:42:13.19 - 00:42:17.07] for me and what's happened actually for a lot of people who work in self-managing
[00:42:17.09 - 00:42:21.04] organizations or just very purpose-driven organizations, a shadow side of that is
[00:42:21.06 - 00:42:24.13] that people can end up burning out, right?
[00:42:24.15 - 00:42:27.19] Because if you're so passionate and committed to it, this happens in Buurtzorg
[00:42:27.21 - 00:42:29.16] with the nurses, for example.
[00:42:31.09 - 00:42:32.19] So that's kind of a learning edge, is like
[00:42:32.21 - 00:42:39.09] how can we also be responsible for our own wellbeing?
[00:42:39.10 - 00:42:42.10] It's kind of a funny thing, like to be responsible in a self-managing team for
[00:42:42.12 - 00:42:47.01] the organisation, but also that means being responsible for my wellbeing,
[00:42:47.03 - 00:42:51.15] because if I burn out, that has an impact on the organisation.
[00:42:52.00 - 00:42:56.07] And sometimes me feeling like, I shouldn't take this time off because that's not me
[00:42:56.09 - 00:42:57.22] being a good colleague.
[00:42:58.00 - 00:43:02.04] It's like seeing that actually that's a responsible thing for me to do so that I
[00:43:02.06 - 00:43:06.13] can come back nourished and refreshed and be a good colleague.
[00:43:06.15 - 00:43:09.04] I'm no good to anyone if I burn out, you know.
[00:43:09.21 - 00:43:17.00] So I think this capacity, what is in my capacity right now, based on my kind of
[00:43:17.01 - 00:43:21.13] purpose and my values, what can I contribute with, with the capacity I have
[00:43:21.15 - 00:43:23.12] available to me right now?
[00:43:23.19 - 00:43:29.19] Without judgment, I might feel sad about, well, there are 500 things I want to do
[00:43:29.21 - 00:43:31.10] and I only have capacity for one.
[00:43:31.12 - 00:43:36.01] So then I have to kind of grieve for those 499 that I can't do.
[00:43:36.03 - 00:43:39.06] But then that helps me channel my energy into that one.
[00:43:40.12 - 00:43:43.04] So I think, yeah, that's my biggest barrier right now.
[00:43:43.06 - 00:43:50.01] And hopefully this time that I'm taking over the summer will help me re-tune into
[00:43:50.03 - 00:43:53.15] what's important and what I can contribute.
[00:43:55.21 - 00:43:58.12] I see it from the lens of intentionality.
[00:43:59.06 - 00:44:07.01] So I'm incredibly intentional about my work and where I put my time.
[00:44:08.22 - 00:44:14.07] But I'm also, in the last five or so years, very intentional about my personal
[00:44:14.09 - 00:44:15.10] well-being.
[00:44:15.12 - 00:44:21.15] So I'm very intentional about exercise, about sleep, about the little habits that
[00:44:21.16 - 00:44:24.15] bring me balance from, you know,
[00:44:24.22 - 00:44:38.09] meditation to having time for my wife to be able to have a quiet understanding
[00:44:39.04 - 00:44:42.12] conversation where we have time to connect.
[00:44:44.22 - 00:44:52.16] I think intentionality is something that I don't see in a lot of people.
[00:44:54.03 - 00:45:01.04] And I see that as the source of confusion and of as...
[00:45:01.06 - 00:45:04.09] I think it's a quote in Alice in Wonderland, if you don't know where you're
[00:45:04.10 - 00:45:06.15] going, every road will take you there.
[00:45:07.22 - 00:45:10.15] Which is, we end up not...
[00:45:11.09 - 00:45:19.21] We end up having our lives run by default and following the course that the events
[00:45:20.09 - 00:45:22.21] that appear to us...
[00:45:25.03 - 00:45:28.01] take us through, rather than designing our own environment.
[00:45:28.03 - 00:45:34.21] You talked earlier about characteristics and allergies and challenges and all of
[00:45:34.22 - 00:45:35.16] that.
[00:45:35.18 - 00:45:42.07] I mean, if we could find the job or the partner or the home or the place or the
[00:45:42.09 - 00:45:48.22] environment where all our characteristics are strengths, that would be the place
[00:45:49.00 - 00:45:50.19] that would give us the most energy.
[00:45:52.13 - 00:45:54.06] We can do that.
[00:45:55.03 - 00:45:58.22] A lot of us, most of us perhaps, we can do that to an extent.
[00:45:59.15 - 00:46:07.03] And the intentionality of saying, how can I find a partner, a job, house, whatever
[00:46:07.04 - 00:46:13.16] it is, safe space where I can grow and my characteristics are all strengths?
[00:46:13.18 - 00:46:17.04] And how would that lead to a much happier life?
[00:46:18.09 - 00:46:25.03] I think, you know, this is, this would really positively impact lives for people.
[00:46:25.09 - 00:46:26.03] Yeah.
[00:46:26.04 - 00:46:33.16] And I would add also where my pitfalls and insecurities and shortcomings are also
[00:46:33.18 - 00:46:34.16] okay.
[00:46:35.03 - 00:46:39.09] Because I always hesitate a bit when organizations are like, you know,
[00:46:39.10 - 00:46:41.15] happiness, happiness, happiness, which is great.
[00:46:41.16 - 00:46:48.13] But I think psychological safety is also spaces where people can, because our
[00:46:48.15 - 00:46:50.04] pitfalls will never go away.
[00:46:50.06 - 00:46:54.07] So even if, you know, when you do that exercise and you identify your pitfalls,
[00:46:54.12 - 00:46:56.18] It's not about eliminating that.
[00:46:56.19 - 00:46:58.19] Like I will always have those pitfalls.
[00:46:58.21 - 00:47:04.03] But if I can become conscious and intentional, as you say, then I can start
[00:47:04.04 - 00:47:08.10] to own my pitfalls instead of my pitfalls owning me.
[00:47:08.19 - 00:47:11.18] And I can start to take responsibility for them.
[00:47:12.03 - 00:47:16.12] So it gets to a place where like in Tuff, for example, we can share with each other.
[00:47:16.13 - 00:47:22.12] We talk all the time like, this is me falling into my pitfall of taking responsibility
[00:47:22.13 - 00:47:24.13] and I want to stop doing that.
[00:47:24.15 - 00:47:26.22] I want to recommit to da da da.
[00:47:27.00 - 00:47:28.10] So we can call each other out.
[00:47:28.12 - 00:47:32.03] We can talk about it together and no one ever...
[00:47:33.04 - 00:47:35.22] punishes someone for being in their pitfall.
[00:47:36.00 - 00:47:40.22] It's like we might lovingly make someone aware of it, give them feedback or
[00:47:41.00 - 00:47:42.09] encourage them.
[00:47:43.03 - 00:47:47.19] But it's like in one of our value statements we say like, we see the five-year
[00:47:47.21 - 00:47:54.07] -old you and we love them and we also lovingly support you to be bigger than
[00:47:54.09 - 00:47:55.04] that.
[00:47:55.19 - 00:47:57.13] So it's kind of a paradox.
[00:47:57.15 - 00:48:00.19] It's like, those are the most inspiring places for me.
[00:48:00.21 - 00:48:06.01] And I try and practice that in my personal relationship with my partner too, that we
[00:48:06.03 - 00:48:10.04] try and have these spaces where we can talk about our pitfalls without trying to
[00:48:10.06 - 00:48:10.22] change the other one.
[00:48:11.00 - 00:48:13.15] I think that's very much a paradigm of romantic relationships, right?
[00:48:13.16 - 00:48:17.07] Like you try and stop being the things that annoy me.
[00:48:17.09 - 00:48:19.15] It's like, no, like you are those things.
[00:48:20.01 - 00:48:23.13] You know, the core quality quadrant, we often pick partners that are in our
[00:48:23.15 - 00:48:24.07] allergy.
[00:48:24.09 - 00:48:28.12] And so my partner is able to be very honest and direct and always can ask for
[00:48:28.13 - 00:48:29.18] what he needs.
[00:48:29.21 - 00:48:33.09] And I was attracted to that because I don't have that naturally.
[00:48:34.03 - 00:48:35.04] And it's also my allergy.
[00:48:35.06 - 00:48:37.06] Sometimes it really annoys me.
[00:48:37.07 - 00:48:42.10] But it's part of the package of who he is and I can tell him and give him feedback
[00:48:42.12 - 00:48:43.16] if it doesn't work for me.
[00:48:43.18 - 00:48:48.22] But I'd never would try and, you know, in a violent way, try and force him to change
[00:48:49.00 - 00:48:49.19] that.
[00:48:51.09 - 00:48:52.06] Yeah.
[00:48:52.12 - 00:48:53.12] Lisa, we are...
[00:48:57.09 - 00:49:00.21] It's been a fantastic conversation.
[00:49:00.22 - 00:49:06.07] I've almost got lost in it, but I'm also aware of the time and I do want to keep
[00:49:06.09 - 00:49:09.06] these podcasts short and juicy.
[00:49:09.18 - 00:49:13.12] Hopefully we can reschedule so we can hear much more about your story.
[00:49:13.13 - 00:49:20.15] But for now, where can people find out more about you and is there anything like
[00:49:20.16 - 00:49:26.01] a book or a movie or anything that you'd like to leave us with?
[00:49:27.09 - 00:49:31.12] Yes, so people can find me on LinkedIn.
[00:49:31.13 - 00:49:34.03] I guess that's a good place to find me.
[00:49:37.12 - 00:49:42.13] As I said, I've written a book and the website for that is mooseheadsonthetable.com.
[00:49:42.15 - 00:49:47.13] So if anyone's interested to read that, there are stories and cases of
[00:49:47.15 - 00:49:52.16] organizations and then some principles about self-managing organizations.
[00:49:53.15 - 00:49:58.15] And my podcast, leadermorphosis.co is the website for that, where I have
[00:49:58.16 - 00:50:04.01] conversations similar to this, talking to people about their journeys and the
[00:50:04.03 - 00:50:06.03] cultures they've created.
[00:50:08.03 - 00:50:10.07] Yeah, that's probably what I would recommend.
[00:50:10.18 - 00:50:14.15] Lisa, I'm really grateful we got to meet.
[00:50:14.16 - 00:50:19.03] I've been following your podcast for a while, as I mentioned, and your work.
[00:50:19.21 - 00:50:23.21] And I look forward to learning more about Tuff actually, because a lot of the
[00:50:23.22 - 00:50:29.13] principles resonate deeply with leadership development and how I like to help other
[00:50:29.15 - 00:50:33.06] leaders, myself included, transform.
[00:50:34.21 - 00:50:37.16] To those that made it to the end of
[00:50:37.18 - 00:50:38.04] episode.
[00:50:38.06 - 00:50:41.07] Thank you for giving us your undivided attention.
[00:50:42.00 - 00:50:45.13] If you like the show, you can support us by telling your friends about the show.
[00:50:45.15 - 00:50:50.06] You can leave a comment in your favorite podcast app, or you can email me directly
[00:50:50.07 - 00:50:54.22] at andreas at rethinkculture .co with your thoughts.
[00:50:55.21 - 00:50:59.13] If you like to watch and not just listen to the podcast, you can tune into our
[00:50:59.15 - 00:51:07.07] YouTube channel, which is youtube .com slash at sign rethink culture and keep on
[00:51:07.09 - 00:51:12.07] creating a happier, healthier workplace for you and for those around
[00:51:16.15 - 00:51:17.08] All