Anxiety and the Autistic Experience with Maddy Schofield and Cody Crawshaw

In this epside of our mental health series, Zoe is joined by Maddy Schoield and Cody Crawshaw to discuss anxiety and the autistic experience.

The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/87b171c9/transcript.txt

If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at [e-mail] or find us on social media @autismtheology.

Maddy: @maddygracehope on Instagram
maddygracehope.substack.com/
Cody: @codycrawshaw on Bluesky

This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.

Website: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/sdhp/cat

The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russell

Mental Health Helplines
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Creators and Guests

Host

Zoe Strong

PhD candidate at Aberdeen Uni studying dyslexia and engaging with the Bible. @SGSAH funded. @CumberlandLodge fellow. Autism and Theology Podcast host.

What is Autism and Theology Podcast?

The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.

Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!

We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.

Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources. And promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities to enable autistic people to flourish.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's, center for Autum and Theology, which we shorten to CAT. If you would like [00:01:00] access to the transcript for this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. So we're currently doing a series of the podcasts on mental health and autism, and today I'm joined by Madeline Scholefield and Cody Crawshaw for a discussion around anxiety and autism.

Maddie is a friend of the center and has worked with our co-director Leon, as an advisor on the autism worship in the Senses Project. And Cody is a PhD researcher and teaching fellow at the University of Aberdeen. Cody researches anxiety and faith, but has also worked on the autism and the Senses project.

So she's worked quite a bit with us at the center and we like to kind of say she's one of us. Um, so Maggie and Cody, it would be great if you could share a little bit more about yourselves and your work for our listeners.

Maddy: So I'm Maddie and I, uh, I work for our Daily Bread Ministries. I'm a writer and editor and so I, I love writing and just sharing lived [00:02:00] experiences of, um, just believers who, who struggle with, uh. Mental health is how it began, and, and now we're expanding to other topics as well.

Um, so I love what I get to do for work and, um, yeah, in my spare time I, I like writing and creating things as well. Um, I'm, you can probably tell from my accent I'm from Australia, uh, and I live with my husband and I've got two babies on the way. Um, and yeah, that's me.

Zoe: Thanks so much Maddie. And I should have said Maddie's been on our podcast before. Um, so if you wanna hear more about her social media journey, you can go back to, I think it was our September episodes. Yeah. Cody, do you wanna go ahead?

Cody: Hi. Yeah, I'm Cody. As Zoe said, I'm a teaching fellow and PhD researcher at Aberdeen.

Uh, I've been based up in Aberdeen for nearly nine years now. Um, and my research looks at the lived experience of Christian women with anxiety disorders or capital A anxiety. Um, I've also worked with. Cat before, um, I got [00:03:00] to participate in the Scaping project that's been spoken about, and it was a really cool opportunity to kind of work with new researchers like Maddie and other people like Leon and Katie.

Um, in my spare time, I am a big fan of journaling, junk journaling, scrapbooking. You'll usually find me crafting in my house and I live with my partner and my cat, Freyja. She's very spoiled.

Zoe: Thank you both so much for sharing a bit about yourselves. Um, so Cody, I thought we could maybe start by talking about what we mean when we say anxiety. Um, and when you research, you've looked quite a lot into definitions, so I thought that would be quite a helpful place to start. Um, so I wonder if you could share about what we're talking about when we say anxiety and maybe share some of the key findings from your research.

Cody: Sure. So I think the first thing to acknowledge when we use the word anxiety is that it's a really relatable feeling. You know, we've all experienced anxiety in some regard. I think about the buildup to your driving tests, those [00:04:00] anxious feelings. When you've got an exam, that's really important. You have those feelings of anxiety.

The heart palpitations, the the fear that comes with it. But in the context of mental health and in my research, anxiety is slightly more. So it's where it tips into this overwhelming chronic feeling of anxiety, a pervasive sense of worry that kind of ebbs and flows and it's not attached to a specific event or scenario.

Usually when we talk about something like generalized anxiety, uh, when we think about anxiety more as an emotional context, as I talked about at the start, that tends to be about a specific scenario, like the exam, the driving test. When we talk about generalized anxiety, it manifests more as an apprehensive expectation.

So asking questions about potential scenarios. What if this happens? What if that happens? Kind of ruminating on things like that, so it becomes panic, restlessness about something that hasn't actually happened and is unlikely to happen. So a lot of definitions kind of hinge [00:05:00] on this idea that it's over and above the level of worry or expectation that you might expect with that event.

An example I use a lot is something like going to the post office. When you objectively think about going to the post office, that should be a really. Easy task. You know, it's got certain things you do, but when you have, uh, anxiety, when you have generalized feelings of anxiety, anxiety disorders, um, that becomes a really difficult scenario.

What if I do something wrong? What if I embarrass myself? What if I stand in the wrong place? What if I go in the wrong door? And so on and so on. So anxiety kind of becomes. Yeah, this phrase, apprehensive expectation, gets used quite a lot. Um, what's really interesting about generalized anxiety is it becomes quite chronic, um, and you never really recover.

You can't really talk about healing in the context of an anxiety disorder. Instead, it kind of, it can be stronger at particular times in your life. It can be, uh, slightly less, perhaps you have it under control. Um, [00:06:00] do things like CBT or anti-anxiety medication. So anxiety is really difficult to define because it's very, very different across different experiences.

My experience of anxiety were very different to Maddie's experience of anxiety. My research participants had very different experiences again, but in the context of my research, I specifically looked at how anxiety interacted with their faith and with relationship with God, and the kind of key takeaways were that.

Actually a perception of a God that is in control, not leaving you on your own always with you brought about a lot of comfort for people with anxiety disorders. So that's kind of a whistle stop through kind of defining anxiety and the key themes of my research, but I'm sure there'll be more. I can talk about.

Zoe: Thanks for sharing, Cody. It's so interesting and it's something, um, in a different context. We touched on this in our last CATChat episode on masking. We were talking about how like everyone experiences masking, but when we're talking about masking in [00:07:00] terms of like, um, and neuro divergent person, that is very different to like the everyday experience.

And I think that's similar. It's so helpful what you're saying about like, everyone does experience anxiety and it's helpful to kind of say like. But anxiety disorders or being anxious is a different thing to that and I think that's really helpful to keep in mind. Um, and just almost validate those feelings of like overwhelm and uncertainty about nothing in particular, but also everything at the same time.

Um, it is so interesting. And Maddie, you've obviously written quite a lot on anxiety. Um. And I wonder if you could share a little bit more specifically about autism and autism and anxiety and the impact that being neurodivergent and having different experiences of the world can impact mental health. I know we've spoken about, it's so hard to kind of, um, differentiate these things or kinda specifically say this is being an autistic person.

Um, but yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Maddy: Yeah. Yep. I think it might help to give a little bit of context to, um, to [00:08:00] my background in terms of, um, being someone who's, uh, both struggled with anxiety and, and my mental health, um, and is also diagnosed autistic. So I was, um, that very anxious kind of kid.

That's how people would've described me. I was about six years old when my parents first took me to a psychologist because they were like. This little brain is going a million miles an hour. Um, just trying to figure life out. What, what is she, um, trying to deal with and cope with. Um, it's not sort of normal for, you know, a 6-year-old to be, to be wrestling this much with anxiety.

Um, so yeah, from the time I can remember, that sort of has been my experience of the world. And it actually wasn't until I was 22 that I was diagnosed autistic. So for. Most of my life up until that point, and especially my teenage years, um, I was seeing psychologists and counselors frequently. I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, also adjustment disorder, and a whole host of [00:09:00] other, um, anxiety related.

Uh, disorders that, yeah, were, I think in a large part stemming from, um, my autism, but we didn't know that at the time. So I think the way I'd seen myself and, and my experience of mental health was that, uh. That was just what everyone who struggles with anxiety deals with. And then since learning about the autistic side and, and sort of unpacking that and going, okay, well what does that mean for, um, for my identity?

You know, obviously I've been autistic all along without knowing it. Um. It is, as you said, really tricky to go, okay, well what's anxiety and what's autism? And I think that's because there is so much crossover. I think you'd find a lot of neurodivergent and autistic people who, uh, will experience anxiety.

They're not necessarily diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, but on, on a day-to-day level, they're experiencing really high levels of that anxiety. And I think a lot of that can be attributed to, um, autistic differences and just the way [00:10:00] that we perceive the world. So when I think about autism and how that affects, uh, my day-to-day life, um, some of the key areas, you know, you've got your stereotypical one that people would think of is, um, social interactions.

And, um, trying to read situations and not miss, uh, subtle social cues or sarcasm. Uh, so there's just naturally that level of anxiety heading into a social situation because your brain is on high alert, you are reading into everything. Um, and I think if anyone with anxiety neurodivergent or not, can probably relate to that sort of overthinking of social scenarios.

Um, especially people with social anxiety disorder, which is something I was also diagnosed with. Um, but for, yeah, autistic and neurodivergent people, there's that added layer because your brain is just trying so hard to fit in, to read, to memorize these scripts to go. Okay, this is what I say in this scenario, and this is how I respond.

What is my face doing right now? Do [00:11:00] I have the correct facial expression? You know, am I understanding the joke? Uh, if I don't, what do I do? So I definitely see the clear links between, uh, mental health. And the social aspect of autism. But another huge one is, uh, the sensory aspect of Neurodivergence and how, um, often our sensory systems are just wired a bit differently.

So maybe that means that, uh, we over respond or where we're hypersensitive to sensory input and stimuli. Or even hyposensitive, so less responsive. Um, so in my case, for example, sounds, um, cause a lot of anxiety for me, loud noises and things. If I'm in a busy cafe, um, my, my nervous system is just operating at this, this really high level, you know, it, it will only take one little thing to push me over the edge.

And so in that sense, there's that very clear, well, yes, I'm anxious quite a lot of the time, um, and not always for a reason. I can explain but. [00:12:00] It's because my body and my brain is, is just trying to figure out the world I'm in and take all this input and sort it out. And sometimes I can't, you know, work out well, this is important and this isn't, you know, you can ignore the background noise.

It's just all at that same level for me. So, um, I think those are two of the main areas that I've seen the correlation, uh, in my life. But yeah, happy to go into further detail or anything later.

Cody: Maddie made a great point there about diagnosis when it comes to anxiety and anxiety disorders. And one thing I think it's really important to think about, uh, in the case of neurodivergent people and in other cases as well, is that seeking a diagnosis for anxiety disorders is really, really difficult.

They are very much underdiagnosed and that partly comes from the nature of anxiety disorders. Phoning up to get a GP appointment entering in that process can be incredibly difficult when you're struggling with anxiety. Also, there's research out there that shows that GPS in a UK context are less likely to diagnose an anxiety [00:13:00] disorder.

They don't wanna cast someone in the sick role. They don't feel like they're qualified enough to do it. They think it belongs to psychologists, that sort of thing. And so accessing diagnosis for generalized anxiety disorder or other anxiety disorders kind of under that umbrella is really difficult. And another is that the symptoms are explained away in other.

Experiences, other occurrences as well. So the more physical sides of anxiety, like the heart palpitations, it's links to IBS, uh, the headaches, the tension is sometimes diagnosed or ignored as part of something else. And so when you think about experiences where we have an intersection of neurodivergence and mental health and anxiety disorders, perhaps their mental health isn't looked at in as much detail.

Because, oh, we can explain it away with another diagnosis, and so suddenly something's not being paid attention to in the way that it needs and deserves as well. So it's just kind of a point about the difficulty of seeking a diagnosis and actually, if you've got heightened feelings of anxiety, if you experience chronic [00:14:00] anxiety, you don't necessarily need to have this diagnosis to have experienced these same feelings and thoughts.

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. That's, yeah, so many interesting points in there. Um, yeah, I think the sensory side of things is so interesting as well when it comes to, um, the intersection between autism and mental health. And obviously you've both worked on the Soundscaping project, um, so that's something you both know a bit about.

Um, but yeah, I'd love to hear more about Maddie, specifically. Cody, if you have anything else to share about your experiences of how people perceive those manifestations of anxiety.

Um, particularly the sensory stuff. Just like if you're in a busy cafe or something or you're struggling yeah, I'd be really interested to hear.

Maddy: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I, from my teen years and onwards, uh, was quite open about my anxiety and, and those experiences [00:15:00] because, uh, honestly it would've been hard to hide it, um, with my friends and things.

So yeah, there were a lot of times where, um, it helped that people were aware that that was something I struggled with. Um, I've got some great friends who. You know, we catch up at a cafe, but we make sure that we sit away from the coffee grinder so it's not so noisy or, you know, in a corner so there aren't people brushing up behind me.

Um, things like that that, yeah, it was just helpful for people to be aware and honestly really accepting. Um, interestingly, since being diagnosed autistic, I've found that all those same little accommodations that I. Sort of was just getting naturally from people when they knew I was an anxious person.

Suddenly it was like, oh, oh, but oh, you're autistic. Like, I don't know how to treat that. You know? Or that must be this even bigger deal. Or, um, almost like that unwillingness to, to kind of. Make concessions. I guess there was a lot of talk about, well, you just need to live in this [00:16:00] world and, and get over those things, uh, that you find hard.

Um, but I think I've found, especially in church, uh, that has been one of the places where I've found it the easiest actually to, um, to feel accommodated for, which I know is, uh, yeah, not, not everyone's experience and, and I, I sometimes feel in the minority there, but, um. I've been, yeah, really grateful to be in a community that.

Is, uh, not necessarily talking openly about it being for autistic on neurodivergent people, but there's an understanding that we're all made differently and that, um, some of the things that I might need to engage better in a service, um, whether it's dimmed lighting or. Not, not being forced into hugs or, or just different little things that churches can do, um, is is something that's been really helpful.

Zoe: Yeah, I think this is something we come back to again and again on the podcast. Sometimes it's. Just like the little [00:17:00] changes can make such a huge difference. And it doesn't actually take that much effort to find a seat that's away from the coffee machines, away from busyness.

Um, to kinda look into your lighting and see what. Unhelpful for people. So often it is just these little steps that can make a huge difference. And I'm sure that's across the board with like both autism and anxiety disorders as well. And, um, so many other things and yeah, just those little steps can be so important.

Cody: Yeah, I can add to that with them experiences of how people are perceived in different environments. When it comes to anxiety, church is a great example. It's the one that we look at in my research, um, and that sometimes your outward presentation doesn't always scream.

Anxious person. You might seem really confident on the surface. I like to think myself as a very outwardly confident person. I'm a very anxious person, and so you have those kind of. Perceptions and presentations that are one thing that kind of changes how people think. Oh, well you can't be anxious. You know, you were stood up at the front.

Uh, taking the [00:18:00] experience of one of my participants, she led worship, but she was incredibly anxious. Well, you can't be anxious. You did that. You stood up in front of all of those people. And so sometimes that understandings of what an anxious person, and I use quotes here, looks like, is. Really difficult, and then when you take that into different settings, yeah, that kind of alters how people are perceived and how anxiety is understood as well.

Maddy: Yeah, I think that's such a good point to make Cody, because, um, I mean, it's the exact same you hear for autistic or neurodivergent of people. Oh, you don't, you don't look like that. Um, and I think just because we can push through certain scenarios, you know, same, same, uh, example, I can get up the front, I can speak confidently, but just because we can doesn't always mean that we should or that we should have to.

And, uh, it's often the. The hidden toll. They talk about autism as being largely this invisible DI disability, and I really experienced that to be true. Um, as someone who masks quite a lot, and I can't even [00:19:00] consciously unmask, um, it's the hidden toll. It's I'm going out and trying so hard to fit in and, and, you know, appear normal in inverted, and then I'm getting home and crashing and burning out, and maybe the only person who sees me in that state is my husband or.

You know, when I was a kid it was my parents, um, to everyone else, I'm fine and, you know, did I really need that extra help or these little accommodations, but, um, they're not seeing the toll that it takes. So, yeah.

Cody: Yeah, and anxiety is sometimes understood as like free flowing, like it attaches to different things at different points in time.

So perhaps one week you do feel, yeah, absolutely. I can be up at the front. My anxiety's quite calm. I'm not anxious about this as a particular scenario, and then another week it might present completely differently. And so it's recognizing that anxiety doesn't always present itself in the same way. It doesn't always attach itself to the same things.

And maybe something that you can do one week and feel good and confident and comfortable. To do is okay. You feel happy kind [00:20:00] of entering in that scenario, but actually another week it might be a massive source of anxiety and there might be no obvious change. There might be nothing that's caused it.

That's kind of been the catalyst to make you feel more anxious, but actually having the space, we can say, yes, I can do this this week, and no, I can't do this this week. No further questions is really important.

Zoe: Yeah, I just, it's so interesting what both of you said and just so interesting that point about like, people not necessarily seeing the toll it takes. Um, we're talking about tiredness in our next CATChat episode, and this is something, um, Ian, our other co-host talked about quite a lot is just that like.

Burnout feeling that people don't get, it's not a case of like, oh, I'm just tired. I need to go for a quick power nap, and then I'll be fine. Is that like he described like decision making fatigue like. Not being able to make those decisions, um, because you're so burnt out from the effort it takes and people don't see [00:21:00] that and people don't always recognize that.

And that can be even more anxiety inducing. I suppose kind of fear of, um, yeah, like fear of that and worrying about the burnout and worrying about what doing something might, um, how that might impact your energy levels as well. That's so huge.

Maddy, I'd love to hear more on one of your blog posts. Um, um, I'll link your blog on our show notes, so if anyone listening wants to find out more about what Maddie's written, you can find that in the show notes. Um, but Maddie, on one of your blog posts, you reflected on anxiety and I just found this quote so interesting.

Um, you said, as a Christian struggling with my mental health can sometimes feel like a juxtaposition. The Bible tells me do not be anxious about anything. And yet, I still am. What does that say about my faith? And yeah, I'd just love to hear more of, um, yeah, more of your thoughts on that. Maddie and Cody, I don't know if you have anything else to add as well on that.

Maddy: Yeah, that was a really, um, important distinction for me to make in [00:22:00] my faith journey. And, uh, it definitely came about as I got more used to talking about anxiety quite openly in my church. Um, as a teenager and, and the young adult, I started to notice, uh, the feedback you get and, and the commentary.

And even just online seeing people say, well, anxiety is a sin. Um, you know. Philippians 4:6 don't be anxious about anything. And if you're being anxious, then, then that's disobeying God. Um, or anxiety is not trusting that God is good or not trusting that he's in control. And so you're actually, you know, insulting God if you are, um, dwelling on these things and.

That was a really damaging line of thinking for me to hear personally because in many ways I felt like my anxiety and, and my mental health struggles brought me so much closer to God than I'd ever been. Um, I felt like in the midst of everything, when it felt like nobody understood what was going on inside my head, [00:23:00] he understood, he knew my thoughts.

Um. And those verses about, you know, take every thought captive. Um, that's really hard to do. But knowing that, that God knew my thoughts, um, was such a comfort. And so I, I think slowly in that dialogue with God, I was, I was going, God, are you really upset with you, me? Are you mad at me that I'm experiencing this anxiety and.

What I just kept hearing from him in, in different ways over the years was, was no. Like, because you're bringing it to me and I started, um. Just sort of reflecting on the idea that that, you know, we talk about, um, temptation a lot and how, uh, when you are feeling tempted to, to sin, that that in itself is not the sin.

Um, you, you feel tempted and even Jesus was tempted and then you take it to God and I started to see my anxiety in that way. You know, that, that when I am. Um, met with those [00:24:00] spiraling thoughts and I'm just feeling so stuck in my head and I've, I've got that fear that's just causing through my body. Um, that's not the sin.

Uh, I can take that to God and he, he wants me to. And the more I see in the Bible, um, just. People, you know, heroes of the faith that we talk about that actually also struggled with their mental health. That, you know, were just so open and honest with God. There are people like, um, Elijah who prayed and asked for God to take his life because he was so afraid of JE Jezebel.

Um, that's in One Kings 19. Or, you know, you've got Job who. Is losing everything and is blaming God for that. You've got people like Hannah who along looking for a baby and like weeping and crying out for that. And of course you've got like David in all his Psalms being so raw with his emotions and with his, um, people call them Dark Night of the Soul.

Uh. [00:25:00] I just see in the Bible so much permission to have those struggles and, and not to be weak in the faith for that. I think it actually takes so much strength to be experiencing those doubts and fears. Um, and just to go. I, yeah, God, right now everything feels like it's spiraling, but I choose to believe that you're in control.

You know, it's, even if it's not something I'm feeling, it's, it's going, I choose to trust in you. Um, and yeah, that was really powerful for me in my faith journey and just in, in learning to talk to others about it. Because you do get challenged by people in the church or, or online or people saying, you know, you shouldn't, um.

Yeah, you shouldn't be living in anxiety. And, and I agree that there is so much freedom and peace that God, God brings, but I would never want anyone to feel like I did that, um, that they're wrong for feeling those things in the first place. So yeah. [00:26:00]

Zoe: Thank you for sharing so openly about that Maddi, um, Cody, you look like you have some thoughts to share back as well.

Cody: I mean, absolutely. Firstly same as what Zoe said. Thank you for being so honest and your sharing, and I think your blog is amazing. So the way you kind of talk about anxiety is really important, and I can't speak from my own experience when I talk about faith and anxiety, but I can speak from the, the wonderful women who participated in my research and they shared very similar thoughts.

This idea of, well, you are first feeling is why am I anxious? God has given me good, given me everything, and I'm, and I'm anxious. Why am I worried God's in control? This sort of kind of thoughts and feelings about, well actually it kind of manifested as well, am I a bad Christian? And then you start to get anxiety about, well how am I a good Christian?

Am I being a good Christian? And these kind of questions that build up these, what if questions is apprehension this tension? And that kind of builds for some and for others. They then find empowerment in, in thinking about it [00:27:00] differently, connecting with God about it, and kind of the experience that Maddie shared, bringing it to God in that way, and also seeing.

God's attributes and feelings surrounded by the love of God as something that can calm pretty intense moments of anxiety. I think in the experience of one of our participants, um, she was having a panic attack outside of church. She had to leave the service panic attacks. You tend to be breathing really heavily.

You are shaking. Sometimes it's difficult to see. They can really overtake your whole body. They're an example of the really physical manifestation of anxiety. While she was having this experience, um, a butterfly came to her. And for her in that moment, that was God. That was God intercepting her anxiety and saying, I see you.

I know you. I need to take your attention away. Um, in treatments of anxiety, we talk about things like grounding experiences, things that take you outta the moment of panic. And for her, that butterfly was God doing that for her. And so kind of [00:28:00] connecting in a different way with God during moments of anxiety became really important and kind of, yeah, feeling able to bring these questions to God and say, well, this is making me really nervous, and what am I gonna do and what can I do about it?

And being able, able to pray about it. So. Think about it in a different way. So yeah, it's interesting to think about how anxiety, and this is kind of one of the key questions that my research talks about is, well, how does anxiety interact with a relationship with God? Is it negative? Is it positive? And I'll hold my hands up and say, when I went into the research, I was expecting a very negative relationship.

So actually this idea of a God that can see everything, knows everything would make anxiety worse. And I'm very kind of honest in saying that that was what I was. Expecting to find, and I found the opposite for having this idea of a God that is in control, that is comforting, that never gonna let you go into a situation alone.

Anxiety can present itself as real worry about loneliness. And so actually having this figure with you kind of really [00:29:00] changed everything. The only sort of negative that came from that was worry about letting God down this kind of almost parental manifestation of this relationship. So. If I do this, if I do this wrong, have I let God down?

God's given me all these opportunities if I, you know, these questions that kind of come up. And that was the kind of main negative manifestation of anxiety and relationship with God. But actually once they felt able, as Maddie talked about, being able to take these questions to God, take this anxiety to God, say, well, I'm struggling.

This is really difficult. I'm suffering with my anxiety here. Having that outlet was really important. So yeah, it's great that we've got mad that kind of speak on this more.

Maddy: No, I loved that. And uh, that example of the butterfly coming to that, to that woman and, and yeah, just people finding that closeness, closeness to God despite what they're going through.

And yeah, thanks for your honesty and like that you went into the research thinking one thing and it's kind of showing something different, [00:30:00] which is just so cool. Um. And yeah. Just one other thing that was really important for me is, is just learning how important, uh, language is and our, and our words.

You know, the, the world was spoken into being, um, through words, through God and. The way I talk about my struggles is really important. Um, in the past I described myself as an anxious person, but uh, in recent years I'm trying really hard to change that language and to say, well, no, I'm someone who struggles with anxiety.

And it's such a tiny, subtle difference and shift, um, to, to separate myself from it. But it's a way of me going, that's not who I am, and that's not the identity that I choose to live in. That's not who God made me to be. And. So, yeah, I'd encourage other people who struggle with anxiety to, to just make those subtle shifts when they're talking.

You know, I'm anxious, it's not, I'm anxious, it's, I struggle with anxiety, or right now I'm feeling anxious. Um, yeah.[00:31:00]

Zoe: Yeah. Thank you both for sharing that and. I just like also that story about the butterfly and that woman is so interesting and I think it just made me think about so often in autism research or neurodiversity research more broadly, and we talk a lot about the fact that. God doesn't expect neurodivergent people to encounter God in the same way as other people.

And I just think that's such a beautiful example of like, it's when we hear those verses like, um, do not be anxious about everything. Give your anxieties to God. Quite often we just have this very prescriptive, or certainly for me and in my like church context, like this idea of like, I dunno, like going knees before God and like praying and.

I think it is so important to remember that like God does meet us where we're at and like it's not, we encounter God in different ways and God understands how we think. And yeah, just, it's such a beautiful example of that. Um, [00:32:00] and yeah, just that I guess authentic encounters with God is what I'm trying to say there.

Um, it's so interesting. So kind of thinking about that, and I know we've touched on relationships a little bit, Maddie, you shared about your friends and your church. Um, and yeah, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on what churches and faith communities might do to respond to the specific experiences of autistic people experiencing anxiety, but also anxiety disorders more broadly.

Maddy: Hmm. Yeah, that's such a big question and, um, it's one I've thought a lot about in the last couple of years. Uh, as I, as I said, I'm thankful to be in a church that I feel does do a really good job at this. But, um, from my experience chatting to other artistically for, uh, around the world, that's, um, unfortunately not so common.

So, yeah, I think. It's important to, to just first ask the why. You know, why is it important to have accessibility [00:33:00] in church? And, um, I think also an acknowledgement that places can't be, um, they can't all be the perfect context for every single person. You know, a building, um, it can have ramps and it can have, um, cap closed captions and it can have audio loops and all the things that you think it would need to be accessible, but.

You know, the lighting might be too bright for someone and not bright enough for someone else. You know, there will always be that tension because we are so different. So I think more than just going, well, here's a checklist of things churches need to tick off. You need to have dim lights and you need to, you know, not have flashing this and not have a smoke machine.

It's like, well, some autistic people would love that experience in worship. Um, so I think. Just first going to the why and going, well, we're many parts of one body. Um, in one Corinthians. It's so important to, to see ourselves like that. Um, and then to go, well, okay, if we can't make things accessible for everyone in [00:34:00] the perfect way, that's exactly for them.

What can we do? And I think, um. Uh, you've mentioned before the, the research that the center has done, um, in collaboration with. So it's Dr. Leon and also Dr. Katie in Australia. Um, and I got to be a little bit a part of one of the projects they were doing, um, looking at the sense senses and, um, how, how they impact people's engagement with church.

And one of the findings that they had in their research was that it was actually more important, um, for autistic and neurodivergent people to be in control. Of the environment. It wasn't so much that it, you know, churches had to be quieter or churches had to be louder. It was that individuals needed to feel a bit more in control of their space.

So what that could look like. And, and you know what my church does is there, there's a space up the back and a separate room that you can go to there, um, places without chairs that you can move freely. You know, sometimes people are dancing off to the side. [00:35:00] Um, they, they leave room. For you to engage as much or as little as you can.

And I think that's an important thing churches can do, is just not expecting the same level of participation from everyone and not judging, you know, if there's someone there, if you've said in a prayer, put your hands up, you know, raise them up and not everyone is doing that. Um, not to make judgements about the people who aren't just to be.

Aware that there will be people who engage in the way that they want to and not in the way that you think that they should. Um, and that's between them and God. So yeah, I think that's, that's how I'd approach it.

Zoe: Thanks for sharing that, Maddie. And yeah, just what you said about that finding in the research project about feeling in control.

Um, again, something we've talked about on the podcast is churches can be so quick to say, oh, I don't have the time to make changes. I don't know what to do. Um, and actually that's. Not necessarily like [00:36:00] you're changing sound or like, or like, I guess probably a better way to describe it's people saying, well, some people like it loud, some people like it quiet.

You can't suit everyone. But the question isn't necessarily to try and suit everyone, it's to make spaces where people feel comfortable, whatever their level of engagement is. And yeah, it's really helpful what you shared, Cody, I dunno if you have any thoughts.

Cody: Yeah. Um, the project that Maddie talked about, I was lucky enough to work on as well, so.

While I was kind of helping with that, I was drawing some kind of comparisons to my own work and thinking about, well actually how does that work for an anxious person? So thinking about one example, we talked about sound a lot, silence can be really anxiety inducing. I. 'cause it's space to ruminate, it's space to start asking questions.

Suddenly you are attuned to the sound of someone tapping their shoes over there and that sort of thing. And so starting to think about the sensory aspects of anxiety was really interesting. There's not too much work that's been done on it, but when it comes to [00:37:00] churches and church experiences, speaking to my participants, one thing that was really important to them was feeling able to go and try a different church if they needed to.

And that was something that they were anxious about doing, feeling like they were leaving that community and trying other communities, particularly in the cases of people who were just moving to university, for example. Um, but actually being able to find a worship style that worked for their anxiety. I.

So this was very varied amongst the different people I spoke to. But taking one example, actually worshiping a cathedral, very high liturgy, very routine, was much more comfortable because the fear while they were sat there thinking, am I gonna get an old call? Am I gonna get pulled up? Is someone gonna come and talk to me?

They're gonna expect me to dance? Meant that they couldn't focus on worship. Whereas now when they're more comfortable in a cathedral setting, they know what's coming. That's what they talked about. It's kind of language, you know, it's expectations. There's a routine to it, and you can see kind of crossovers with research and autism already [00:38:00] thinking about comfortable, routine, knowing what's coming next, and that being something that was really important.

So being able to go and find a worship style that works for you, I think is just as important as kind of churches being able to make the necessary changes in spaces that Maddie talked about.

Maddy: Yeah, that's, that's such a good point. Um, no one should ever feel like they're stuck in their church community or that, you know, if it's one that's just not a good fit, um, I think God would much rather you find somewhere else that you can be planted in and surrounded by, um, people and in an environment that you can engage.

Um, but I, and I think for churches, just that first step is really just to listen and it. It sounds daunting to go, oh, we don't wanna give, you know, if we start opening up the floodgates, like who else is gonna come in and be like, well, I wanted this and I think that the text should be like, bigger on the screen, or this and that.

Um, but it's not about that. It's, uh, you know, is there even a safe [00:39:00] space for people to just, to raise those things. I like to use example. I was in an event once at my church and um, the lights were really bright that night. They, they were like. Fluorescent white, you know, hospital lighting kind of style.

And I just wasn't feeling settled and it, it wasn't, um, making space for, it was, you know, a reflective quiet evening. And they had one of those anonymous, um, question and answer things for the guest speaker, and. I thought, Ooh, let me just, um, what if I actually anonymously just request that they turn the lighting down?

And, um, so I did it not thinking I would be taken seriously. And the, the person up the front, you know, was reading through the questions and went, Ooh, here's one. Yeah, that's a good idea. Can we turn the lights down? And, and they did. And something so simple that, you know, a few people chuckled about, they probably thought it was a joke.

It changed my entire night, so. There are definitely things that, yeah, churches might be scared to implement, but even just providing space for [00:40:00] people to give feedback and even if it's you saying like, as the church eldership, I'm so sorry we can't accommodate that for these reasons, but thank you for bringing that to our attention.

You know, we are really sorry that that's a barrier for you. What are some other ways, you know, we could compromise? Um, I think is really powerful to just open up that dialogue.

Cody: Yeah, that's really interesting, like being able to give feedback on things that needs to be changed and being listened to is something that's so important and actually listening and actioning, that sort of thing.

You kind of reminded me talking about feedback forms about something that could be really helpful for people with anxiety and anxiety disorders is having some sort of tool or website or something that walks them through what the experience is gonna look like before they get there.

So, for example, the church website being up to date with information like, enter here, toilets are located here, like a, a general map, that sort of thing. A rough kind of timing of what happens in [00:41:00] the service, especially if it's someone maybe attending for the first time trying new churches or new to church altogether.

Having a walkthrough. You see videos of walkthroughs, uh, for universities, that sort of thing, that give you a general idea of what the space is gonna look like about roughly where you've got to go. And that can take away a lot of those. What if anxiety questions that build up, you know, what if I can't find the door?

What if I try and open the wrong door and I look a bit silly? A lot of anxiety in the western context, uh, manifest as fear of embarrassment, and so that's one of them. That sort of thing. So having something that can kind of. Show you in advance what something's gonna look like and how that might be.

Maybe even having, uh, previously streamed or recorded services available online. So someone can go and go, oh, okay, so this happens and then this happens, and then this happens. Roughly. Okay. I feel less nervous because I know the sort of. Pattern of what's gonna come up. Stuff like [00:42:00] that. Walkthroughs, video, walkthroughs of buildings can be really helpful and fairly easy to produce.

Just something, it doesn't have to be perfect, but even a picture of where your front door is can be an accessible tool for someone with an anxiety disorder. I.

Maddy: You know, it's so funny that you say that because that, that's a brilliant idea and it's never crossed my mind that churches could do that. I have yet to go to a cafe or a restaurant that I haven't looked up the reviews and like I need to see photos of inside.

And I had the exact same experience you described of. Into a cafe once, and I tried to, um, push the door to open and I think it was a pull and literally just that one mistake. And I saw people inside looking at me and I panicked, and I actually cried and walked away and went home and didn't go to that cafe.

And it's, it sounds funny now, but just that one experience of I didn't know how to open the door. You know? Is that even something that churches think about when they think about accessibility?[00:43:00]

Zoe: Yeah, and I think, yeah, what both you said that is like. So many good suggestions and like amazing little things churches can do. Um, and it comes back like what you're saying, Maddie, about that door and what Cody's touched on with like the walkthrough suggestion. It comes back to what I think Cody and you both touched on earlier about.

Sometimes you don't know why you're having an anxious experience one day that you don't, and it might be the case you've gone to that church so many times, but you've maybe never even known what way the door opens 'cause you've not had to think about it. And then that one experience can just be so negative and have knock on effects.

And yeah, that can just be so helpful if you're going into a situation knowing these things. So even if. You normally don't experience anxiety around it, even if that one time you do, you know what the situation is. Um, and yeah. Um, but it was so helpful, really. I think what you've said will be so helpful for people listening and, um, maybe church leaders or people in congregations to make suggestions based on what you've both shared.

I think that that'll be really [00:44:00] helpful. Um, yeah. Just final question before we close. Do you have any recommendations or advice for autistic Christians experiencing anxiety?

Whether that's like, um, resources online or just Yeah. Any quick tips or advice that you'd like to share?

Cody: I would always recommend engaging with, and this applies to not just Christians with anxiety, but anyone who's got experiences with heightened or, um, quite pervasive feelings of anxiety to engage with, uh, a charity.

I. So the UK context, I dunno if Maddy will have the name of, uh, other context off the top of my head, but the UK Context, anxiety UK is our charity that help people with anxiety disorders specifically. You've also got Mind and the Mental Health Foundation, they tend to have things like support groups, guides help getting, um, access to gps, doctors, that sort of thing.

If pursuing that is gonna be helpful to you. Engaging with groups like that can really help you realize that you're not the only person struggling with [00:45:00] these. Really intense feelings of anxiety. You know, support groups can be really helpful though they can be very anxiety inducing helpfully. They have, um, forums, online boards where you can type what you're feeling, which can feel a lot more comfortable because it still feels a lot more anonymous.

So things like that, finding a charity, um, they've done wonders for me, anxiety uk and I would thoroughly recommend kind of checking out the one local to your area if you're not in the UK and engaging with them.

Maddy: That's great advice. Um, I have three quick things. The first one would be, I think most importantly, if you haven't already sought some sort of professional help, um, there is so much out there and, um, I know in Australia at least, I. There are mental health care plans that can, um, get you free access to psychologists for a certain number of visits, and you can get them through your gp.

But, um, I mean, I'm sure you can look into, yeah, there are things [00:46:00] out there to help you, but just seeing a professional, seeing someone who, who gets it, who understands and who can just help build that toolkit of how can I respond in these scenarios? Um, I would say that my anxiety has lessened a lot over the last few years, but even so, I have kept consistently seeing a counselor because I just think it's so valuable to have that person who's not in my family, not part of my friend group, but is just outside of me a little bit, but knows my history and background really well and can just journey that through with me.

So, yeah, find someone to talk to. Um. And the second one, I'm really big on vulnerability. And I think that there's so much power that comes when we can open up about what we're struggling with. And, uh, I think sometimes anxiety and other struggles, they lose their power over us when we speak them. Um, when we put light.

Light on them. And, um, yeah, so whether it's, it's just in a really small context, telling one or two friends or speaking to your parents, um, or on a broader scale, you know, [00:47:00] I share very openly, publicly, but, um, for me, that's just a way of being reminded that I think people care a lot less than I think they do.

And like in, in a good way. And I think so many people, um, are compassionate and empathetic and want to be able to support you, and they're not gonna know your needs. If you can't share them. Um, so that's number two. And then the third one is just to work on asking God, what is my role in the church? What is something I can bring to the table?

Because I think sometimes when we're anxious or we're autistic or neuro divergent, we can get into these, I guess feeling that, well church is there to accommodate me and uh, services are there for me and we can feel like we don't have enough to bring to the table because, you know, I'm not mentally well, I'm not confident like them.

I'm not this or that, but, um, God has a place for you in the church as well, and. Uh, you know, maybe it's restocking the toilet paper rolls at church or doing any of these jobs that, you [00:48:00] know, it takes so many people to bring together the body. It could be cooking meals for someone in your church who's going through a rough time.

Um, there are so many different ways we can serve. It doesn't just have to be the welcome, uh, the welcome team at church and. People who are big and loud. Um, there is space for all of us. So I think finding a way that you can feel part of the church body and play your part as well is actually really good in healthy anxiety.

Yeah.

Zoe: Thank you both so much for sharing those things and I just think so much of what you share today will be really, really important for people listening to this podcast. And yeah, really appreciate you both coming on. It's been fantastic to have you as part of this series. Um. Yeah. Thank you everyone who's listened to this episode this month.

If you have any questions for the center or the podcast, you can message us at Autism Theology on social media, or you can send us an email at [00:49:00] [e-mail] even if it's just to say hi. We would love to hear from you. If you wanna hear a little bit more about Cody and Maddy's fantastic work around anxiety and um, just more about them in general.

You can find Maddy at Maddie Grace Hope on Instagram and cody @codycrawshaw on X. Um, I'll put both of those links in the show notes so you can pop down there and find more about them. Yeah, it's just been fantastic to hear from you both and thank you for joining us. And yeah, we'll be back on the 18th of June where we'll be continuing our mental health series with a discussion on autism and tiredness.

Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. [00:50:00] If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at [e-mail] or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.